Nicholas Thomas Wright is Anglican Bishop of Durham, England. The "On Faith" panelist taught New Testament studies for 20 years at Cambridge, McGill and Oxford Universities before becoming Dean of Lichfeld in 1994. He was named Canon Theologian of Westminster Abbey in 2000, and consecrated bishop in 2003. He has written hundreds of articles and more than 40 books, including Judas and the Gospel of Jesus (2006) and Evil and the Justice of God (2006). He has served as Visiting Professor at numerous institutions including Harvard Divinity School, Gregorian University in Rome and the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Dr Wright holds four degrees, including a divinity doctorate from Oxford University, and honorary degrees from several universities and colleges.
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N. Thomas Wright
Anglican Bishop of Durham, England
Nicholas Thomas Wright is Anglican Bishop of Durham, England. The "On Faith" panelist taught New Testament studies for 20 years at Cambridge, McGill and Oxford Universities before becoming Dean of Lichfeld in 1994. He was named Canon Theologian of Westminster Abbey in 2000, and consecrated bishop in 2003.
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Taylor has a home in the Miami suburb of Palmetto Bay that he bought two years ago. The 24-year-old player is in HjJrFiZwfKpezK his fourth season with the Redskins after playing at the University of Miami, where he was an All-American in 2003
Taylor has a home in the Miami suburb of Palmetto Bay that he bought two years ago. The 24-year-old player is in HjJrFiZwfKpezK his fourth season with the Redskins after playing at the University of Miami, where he was an All-American in 2003
The comic visited the land for the first time in decades to promote his anRrpWTYnkmcou new animated movie about bees, and he was treated like royalty literally
The comic visited the land for the first time in decades to promote his anRrpWTYnkmcou new animated movie about bees, and he was treated like royalty literally
Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues
Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues
Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues
Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues
Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues
Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues
Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues
Gear up for grub with a tripleheader of pigskin, including a meeting of brothers in Dallas. Everybody knows it's been a rough year for her, but find out who else had issues
Christian Now Liberated states:
GK Chesterton - "All the things your church is doing are very humanitarian. Please consider that this same group of people could do all of those things without professing belief in the supernatural. I think most, of not all, of those good people in your church would be "people of love, justice, mercy, and grace to a broken and hurting world" even without a God to guide them."
There you go being patronizing and all. Yes, to some degree you're right, but many more do it because they're singing, "This is my story. This is my song. Praising my Savior all the day long..."
We are God's people, redeemed by Christ, for the sake of God's creation, not simply a bunch of philanthropic people. Believe me, left to our own devices, we are pretty selfish (especially GK Chesteron.)
GK Chesterton - All the things your church is doing are very humanitarian. Please consider that this same group of people could do all of those things without professing belief in the supernatural.
I think most, of not all, of those good people in your church would be "people of love, justice, mercy, and grace to a broken and hurting world" even without a God to guide them.
"As with most of us, you apparently were bred, born and brainwashed in your religion. I recommend thinking outside the box and inhaling the reality of life.
During your "breathing exercises" consider:
Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (physical resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions)."
You forgot to mention your own name in the list of hallucinations.
Honestly, Christian Now Liberated, do you realize how patronizing you are? If I was an atheist, your posts would lead me to become a Christian. So maybe in a strange way, you are actually doing a noble thing. And now that you have included my buddy, Wesley, you have really sealed your demise.
What's really sad is that you haven't rejected Christianity. You have rejected your version of Christianity which I applaud because I don't embrace that version either.
In the meantime, I will continue attending my brainwashed mainline church week after week. The church that recently made it possible for a homeless ministry to get started in our community, the church that hosts a dance for the mentally handicapped in our community, the church that gave a home to an abused teenager, the church that just delivered almost 500 food items to our local community food pantry (all donated by the children of our church!)
And why does this church do things like this? Not because of their post-enlightenment and miracle denying culture, but because every time the pastor offers the benediction at the close of each service, he reminds us that we are called to be God's people of love, justice, mercy, and grace to a broken and hurting world.
Thanks for the tip on inhaling the reality of life. It works!
As with most of us, you apparently were bred, born and brainwashed in your religion. I recommend thinking outside the box and inhaling the reality of life.
During your "breathing exercises" consider:
Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (physical resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).
JST, when you say "Try asking him. It has worked for me" I assume you mean ask God.
If so, how did you ask him? How did you know it was God answering? How did you experience the answer (an audible voice? a voice in your head? your heart?)
Nick Gill
"Jesus very rarely, and his disciples almost NEVER, speak about an afterlife. Jesus wasn't trying to distract anyone from thinking about the afterlife. He was reorienting their understanding of ENEMY.
They thought Rome, and other pagan kingdoms, were the enemy. They believed the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy those enemies.
Jesus taught that sin and death were the enemy and that the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy THOSE enemies.
Also, the fact that the Ptolemaic scientific paradigm rules the minds of the intellectual elite has little bearing on the eschatological paradigm of a first century Jew. Believing Jews lived out of a paradigm fueled by Scripture and hope, not merely philosophical speculation.
The Bible is the story of God reaching for His Creation, not a story about man searching for God."
Nick, you say, "The Bible is the story of God reaching for His Creation, not a story about man searching for God."
I'm curious, who do you think wrote the Bible - Men or God? If men wrote it (as I think they did) then wouldn't it be a story of men's perception of God reaching for His creation?
Anon (wish you'd choose a name -- there are many anons)
I meant "source" - as in "reference to life/beliefs in those times" (the same way shakepeare's works could be a source to life in elisabethan England) as opposed to "guide" - i.e. - a how-to book, an authoritative rule book.
Jesus very rarely, and his disciples almost NEVER, speak about an afterlife. Jesus wasn't trying to distract anyone from thinking about the afterlife. He was reorienting their understanding of ENEMY.
They thought Rome, and other pagan kingdoms, were the enemy. They believed the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy those enemies.
Jesus taught that sin and death were the enemy and that the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy THOSE enemies.
Also, the fact that the Ptolemaic scientific paradigm rules the minds of the intellectual elite has little bearing on the eschatological paradigm of a first century Jew. Believing Jews lived out of a paradigm fueled by Scripture and hope, not merely philosophical speculation.
The Bible is the story of God reaching for His Creation, not a story about man searching for God.
E Favorite:
"That is quite a lovely romantic view you have of the Bible, though. Please try to promote that view and get people to stop thinking about the Bible as the final authority. It's a source book, not a guide book, right?"
I was with you until you end by saying that the Bible is a "source book." Now, you're going back to the Bible as primarily a propositional (informational) book. Again, it's a story of God's desire to redeem the world so it's more than a "source book." I don't know. That word, "source" sounds like the last thing we need in our wikapedia over-information world. The authority of the Bible comes from it's story form, albeit rooted in both historical and symbolic language. Fundamentalists will disagree with me but I'm not a fundamentalist. I'm a mainline church kind of guy.
Anon1 - Thanks, regarding "pretzel" remark -- I've noticed it often among people with a good command of language, but a confused mind.
Anon2 - The pretzel remark was not about the Bible, but about NT Wright's essay.
That is quite a lovely romantic view you have of the Bible, though. Please try to promote that view and get people to stop thinking about the Bible as the final authority. It's a source book, not a guide book, right?
Anon:
"I like E FAVORITE'S first comment. It does sound like he's twisting into a pretzel. That's dogma for you."
The bible is in narrative form with an overarching plot (God being faithful to his covenant) and subplots (people being unfaithful in fulfilling their covenant with God.)
So as a story, of course, their will be twists, turns, and a "pretzel like" feeling to life and the meaning of life. Stories have that quality about them so why would we expect dogma to be any different? If you see the bible as a story with many stories inside the big story, then we need to allow for those surprising dimensions. That's why most of great literature has echos of the biblical narrative in their great works.
Mr. Wright, you forgot to mention that Jesus kept trying to direct his follower's attention away from their insistence on talking about an afterlife to focus on the present. He failed.
I like E FAVORITE'S first comment. It does sound like he's twisting into a pretzel. That's dogma for you.
I am reminded of a quote from Albert Einstein:
"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism."
Albert Einstein
Amen Mr. Baum! Thank you! It was never my intention to make you think I believed differently, perhaps I do not always word things correctly. God is LOVE and Christ is His greatest gift to us. The Bible teaches us that we can never be separated from Gods love. But we can be separated from His presence. This is what I meant. He cannot look on sin...
I am reading so much hate here...It is truly sad.
It is Blasphemy: Almighty God is just that Almighty. But remember Genesis teaches us that God created man in His own likeness. He also gave us the gift of free will. This is why He does not prevent us from making choices, whether right or wrong. He continuously draws us, if we listen, to Himself that we may see ourselves through His eyes and thus see the changes we need to make. It is not by good works we get to Heaven, it is the gift of God-GRACE, meaning unmerited favor. God sees our hearts and what is in them.
Mr. Zeller: Read the language of your passages and ask yourself these question, "what does the world see in me? More importantly, what does God see in me?" "Am I helping Him to build His Kingdom, or am I helping to destroying His Temple?" Your Messiah was clearly portrayed in your Holy Scriptures. He was clearly portrayed in Christ Jesus. Who has hardened your heart? Even Nicodemus, a great leader of his time, could see who Jesus was and Who He came from.
Jesus said, "You will know my people by their love", all you say comes from a heart filled with hate. Is this how God wants you to live-be?
"They say of some temporal suffering, 'No future bliss can make up for it,' not knowing that HEAVEN, once attained, will work backwards and turn even that agony into a glory. And of some sinful pleasure they say 'Let me but have this and I'll take the consequences': little dreaming how damnation will spread back and back into their past and contaminate the pleasure of the sin. Both processes begin even before death. The good man's past begins to change so that his forgiven sins and remembered sorrows take on the quality of HEAVEN: the bad man's past already conforms to his badness and is filled only with dreariness. And that is why, at the end of all things . . . the Blessed will say, "We have never lived anywhere except in HEAVEN,' and the Lost, "We were always in HELL.' And both will speak truly."
"Where do you get your information that God's realm is not a space within time and history. This sounds like modern physics applied to the heaven / hell concept and I doubt it is delineated in the bible, but only in the most nonspecific allegorical terms.
Again, every reader of the bible from the 4th century on, felt jesus was returning in their liftime based on the apocalyptic theme of the new testament, and they were wrong."
The Christian faith gets this from the doctrine that God "wholly other." Being "wholly other" means that God is not confined to space and time, although God values space and time and this is most evident in God's desire to reclaim all of creation upon the return of Jesus. The doctrine that God is "wholly other" is held in tension with the doctrine that God is also "imminently present" within space and time. You need both of these doctrines to be within the definition of orthodox Christianity.
Regarding your comment about "every reader of the bible from the 4th century on, felt jesus was returning in their liftime based on the apocalyptic theme of the new testament, and they were wrong," I would also add that Christians are called to live on this earth in such a way that anticipates the day when Jesus returns to reclaim all of creation. This leads to the work of the church for peace and justice in our communities and world, as well as ecological concerns, etc.
Just because Jesus didn't return in a particular lifetime of a generation, does not mean that they were wrong to anticipate the 2nd coming of Jesus.
You seem to applaud confusion (i.e. analogous to those in Romans 1:32, "they not only do evil but applaud those who do it"). What do we make of the cynic who mocks and denies the possibility of affirming any and all truth without recognizing that in that case he best be quiet?
It would be a poorer world without judgement of evil. The work of Christ (and of the church) is to embody the healing and wholeness of God, to counter that which degrades and deprives, that which destroys and finally can only mock at God's way of life and love. In that sense judgement as the decisive final word on evil is good news! For the rest, people have made all sorts of things out of hell, C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, has some pertinent things to say.
It is Blasphemy:
It seems to me that your diatribe against almighty God, as you put it, makes you look extrememly JEALOUS because He is getting his way and you are not.
Which to me is what heaven and hell is in the end: God's way of giving you what you want.
Where do you get your information that God's realm is not a space within time and history. This sounds like modern physics applied to the heaven / hell concept and I doubt it is delineated in the bible, but only in the most nonspecific allegorical terms.
Again, every reader of the bible from the 4th century on, felt jesus was returning in their liftime based on the apocalyptic theme of the new testament, and they were wrong.
Heaven is often referred to in Christian theology as God's realm that is separated from earth by a very thin space. The Jewish people believed that God's realm was present on earth through the presence of the Temple and the reading of the Torah (Books of the Law.)
God's realm is not a space within time and history but will one day ultimately fill the whole earth when Jesus returns and God will renew all of creation and God's people will receive resurrected bodies.
Jesus was an apocalyptic first century Jew who thought the second coming of the Son of Man (it is not certain he was referring to himself) would occur before the lifetimes of the followers he was speaking to were over. This flaw in his prophetic power unfortunately leads to skepticism concerning many of his prophecies.
The dribble in many of the previous posts is continued evidence that the application of modern thought to the biblical paradigm is frought with absurdity. It is impossible to mix modern reductionist thought with biblical philosophy. The biblical passages must be taken in context to start to have any understanding of what the bible is trying to say.
These are not my concepts but those of Professor Bart D. Ehrman at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
M.Div., Ph.D., Princeton Theological Seminary.
I personally don't believe there is a location on a universal map where heaven is located because the concept is fraught with contradictions. Because the bible is so vague about the specifics of heaven and hell, and most of these concepts were written when the Ptolemeic system of the universe was the accepted dogma on the subject, has lead theologians to play a game of smoke and mirrors to try to calm the masses about their eventual death.
I hope I am wrong.
There are many concepts in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism that can be integrated into our daily lives to make them richer. I prefer to look for and integrate those positives and try not to be a skeptic. These are tangible and real for me and at the end of each day I can look back at how those positives helped make my life and the people around me incrementally better. That is heaven on earth for me.
Where is the fourth state of Israel?!!!!!!!
-ask Him.
Which wine does the world get drunk on?
What does Jesus mean when he says "they are forever percieving but never understanding".
-ask Him.
Why Does God continually mention anatomy in his message?
Do you really believe that proverbs is just a set of rules to follow?
How often do you say aloud "I seek understanding, I cry out for insight":
- do you understand the the purpose of the numbers?
- do you ask God the purpose of the fantastic stories?
Do you understand that this world is afflicted with spirits.
- and do you think about how specifically spirits affect us.
Do you think God's worthy counselor has a conversation with you?!!!!!!!
- if you do, you might want to read the book of Jerimiah!
- does God's tone in the Bible match this voice's tone?
- do you laugh along with its clever wit?
Do You assume a seat in the Great Hall? (Proverbs)
Do you soley rely on man's interpretations in the commentaries at the bottom of the Bible?!!!!!!!
**************************************************
Lastly, with regards to spirits, if you are overcome with emotion and confounded with an endless maze of questions;
Almighty God and almighty God alone shall decide. Whatever almighty God wants almighty God will get. To say that almighty God does not want people to do whatever it is people do whenever they do it is blasphemy. If God didn't want it then people could not do it, by the definition of almighty God.
The above is so unless almighty God wants people in hell. The results of doing what almighty God allows but does not want is hell. Therefore at just one level deep in the logic we come right back to almighty God getting what almighty God wants. In the second level that's a pit of fire full of people.
Since almighty God gets everything almighty God wants we can say that whatever happens almighty God must want else it can't happen. So the following must be the case:
1. The God advertised as almighty is not almighty
2. Any God that wants people in hell is devil by definition of devil. So that fellow here who says Moses made a deal with the devil is on target. Devil is not almighty by definition else he would be God.
To Beth: Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews said, "My Kingdom is not of this world". To Rvalade: Hell is real but Jesus won the keys to hell, also the keys to spiritual death, which He will use in due time, don't underestimate the mercy of God, God did not ask us to be better or more forgiving than Him, everybody will be in the Kingdom, don't forget about the mysterious Plan of God. Actually what Jesus taught us is so simple, yet so hard that we totally miss what He taught at times. Hell is not seperation from God, that is spiritual death, hell is going to God and experiencing all of your wrongdoing, unforgiveness and judgementalism in the light of Pure Love rather than being embraced by it but don't worry it only lasts for eternity and eternity ends on the morning of the seventh day of course you won't know that, you see Jesus really did try to teach us hard heads. Repenting means being sorry, not trying to con God, God is so much nicer than you would probably ever think that He is by listening to what a lot of people that call themselves christians say. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
E FAVORITE, we must put our faith in ministers. They have studied the sacred scriptures and know what they say. The sacred scriptures are beyond common bundles to read and understand themselves.
So yes, "N. T. Wright is: the Right Here On Earth Concrete Answers Guy" for the common bundles,, with ______ for brains.
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Christian Now Liberated states:
GK Chesterton - "All the things your church is doing are very humanitarian. Please consider that this same group of people could do all of those things without professing belief in the supernatural. I think most, of not all, of those good people in your church would be "people of love, justice, mercy, and grace to a broken and hurting world" even without a God to guide them."
There you go being patronizing and all. Yes, to some degree you're right, but many more do it because they're singing, "This is my story. This is my song. Praising my Savior all the day long..."
We are God's people, redeemed by Christ, for the sake of God's creation, not simply a bunch of philanthropic people. Believe me, left to our own devices, we are pretty selfish (especially GK Chesteron.)
July 4, 2007 12:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 4, 2007 12:27
GK Chesterton - All the things your church is doing are very humanitarian. Please consider that this same group of people could do all of those things without professing belief in the supernatural.
I think most, of not all, of those good people in your church would be "people of love, justice, mercy, and grace to a broken and hurting world" even without a God to guide them.
July 4, 2007 11:58 AM | Report Offensive Comments
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Concerned the Christian Now Liberated:
Professor Wright, Nick, GK, and JST,
"As with most of us, you apparently were bred, born and brainwashed in your religion. I recommend thinking outside the box and inhaling the reality of life.
During your "breathing exercises" consider:
Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (physical resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions)."
You forgot to mention your own name in the list of hallucinations.
Honestly, Christian Now Liberated, do you realize how patronizing you are? If I was an atheist, your posts would lead me to become a Christian. So maybe in a strange way, you are actually doing a noble thing. And now that you have included my buddy, Wesley, you have really sealed your demise.
What's really sad is that you haven't rejected Christianity. You have rejected your version of Christianity which I applaud because I don't embrace that version either.
In the meantime, I will continue attending my brainwashed mainline church week after week. The church that recently made it possible for a homeless ministry to get started in our community, the church that hosts a dance for the mentally handicapped in our community, the church that gave a home to an abused teenager, the church that just delivered almost 500 food items to our local community food pantry (all donated by the children of our church!)
And why does this church do things like this? Not because of their post-enlightenment and miracle denying culture, but because every time the pastor offers the benediction at the close of each service, he reminds us that we are called to be God's people of love, justice, mercy, and grace to a broken and hurting world.
Thanks for the tip on inhaling the reality of life. It works!
July 4, 2007 10:56 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 4, 2007 10:56
Professor Wright, Nick, GK, and JST,
As with most of us, you apparently were bred, born and brainwashed in your religion. I recommend thinking outside the box and inhaling the reality of life.
During your "breathing exercises" consider:
Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (physical resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).
July 4, 2007 10:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 4, 2007 10:30
JST, when you say "Try asking him. It has worked for me" I assume you mean ask God.
If so, how did you ask him? How did you know it was God answering? How did you experience the answer (an audible voice? a voice in your head? your heart?)
Thanks
June 30, 2007 10:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 30, 2007 10:37
Nick Gill
"Jesus very rarely, and his disciples almost NEVER, speak about an afterlife. Jesus wasn't trying to distract anyone from thinking about the afterlife. He was reorienting their understanding of ENEMY.
They thought Rome, and other pagan kingdoms, were the enemy. They believed the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy those enemies.
Jesus taught that sin and death were the enemy and that the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy THOSE enemies.
Also, the fact that the Ptolemaic scientific paradigm rules the minds of the intellectual elite has little bearing on the eschatological paradigm of a first century Jew. Believing Jews lived out of a paradigm fueled by Scripture and hope, not merely philosophical speculation.
The Bible is the story of God reaching for His Creation, not a story about man searching for God."
Well said!
June 30, 2007 7:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 30, 2007 07:47
E favorite,
Try asking him. It has worked for me.
June 29, 2007 10:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 29, 2007 22:26
Nick, you say, "The Bible is the story of God reaching for His Creation, not a story about man searching for God."
I'm curious, who do you think wrote the Bible - Men or God? If men wrote it (as I think they did) then wouldn't it be a story of men's perception of God reaching for His creation?
If God worte it, how do you know?
Thanks.
June 29, 2007 3:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 29, 2007 15:08
Anon (wish you'd choose a name -- there are many anons)
I meant "source" - as in "reference to life/beliefs in those times" (the same way shakepeare's works could be a source to life in elisabethan England) as opposed to "guide" - i.e. - a how-to book, an authoritative rule book.
June 29, 2007 2:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 29, 2007 14:15
Jesus very rarely, and his disciples almost NEVER, speak about an afterlife. Jesus wasn't trying to distract anyone from thinking about the afterlife. He was reorienting their understanding of ENEMY.
They thought Rome, and other pagan kingdoms, were the enemy. They believed the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy those enemies.
Jesus taught that sin and death were the enemy and that the Messiah and the Kingdom of God would defeat and destroy THOSE enemies.
Also, the fact that the Ptolemaic scientific paradigm rules the minds of the intellectual elite has little bearing on the eschatological paradigm of a first century Jew. Believing Jews lived out of a paradigm fueled by Scripture and hope, not merely philosophical speculation.
The Bible is the story of God reaching for His Creation, not a story about man searching for God.
in HIS love,
Nick
June 29, 2007 1:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 29, 2007 13:06
E Favorite:
"That is quite a lovely romantic view you have of the Bible, though. Please try to promote that view and get people to stop thinking about the Bible as the final authority. It's a source book, not a guide book, right?"
I was with you until you end by saying that the Bible is a "source book." Now, you're going back to the Bible as primarily a propositional (informational) book. Again, it's a story of God's desire to redeem the world so it's more than a "source book." I don't know. That word, "source" sounds like the last thing we need in our wikapedia over-information world. The authority of the Bible comes from it's story form, albeit rooted in both historical and symbolic language. Fundamentalists will disagree with me but I'm not a fundamentalist. I'm a mainline church kind of guy.
June 29, 2007 8:05 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 29, 2007 08:05
Anon1 - Thanks, regarding "pretzel" remark -- I've noticed it often among people with a good command of language, but a confused mind.
Anon2 - The pretzel remark was not about the Bible, but about NT Wright's essay.
That is quite a lovely romantic view you have of the Bible, though. Please try to promote that view and get people to stop thinking about the Bible as the final authority. It's a source book, not a guide book, right?
June 28, 2007 11:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 23:54
Anon:
"I like E FAVORITE'S first comment. It does sound like he's twisting into a pretzel. That's dogma for you."
The bible is in narrative form with an overarching plot (God being faithful to his covenant) and subplots (people being unfaithful in fulfilling their covenant with God.)
So as a story, of course, their will be twists, turns, and a "pretzel like" feeling to life and the meaning of life. Stories have that quality about them so why would we expect dogma to be any different? If you see the bible as a story with many stories inside the big story, then we need to allow for those surprising dimensions. That's why most of great literature has echos of the biblical narrative in their great works.
June 28, 2007 9:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 21:17
Mr. Wright, you forgot to mention that Jesus kept trying to direct his follower's attention away from their insistence on talking about an afterlife to focus on the present. He failed.
June 28, 2007 8:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 20:36
I like E FAVORITE'S first comment. It does sound like he's twisting into a pretzel. That's dogma for you.
I am reminded of a quote from Albert Einstein:
"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism."
Albert Einstein
June 28, 2007 7:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 19:46
E favorite:
"Christians of various denominations - please be kind to each other - you're going to have to spend an eternity in heaven together."
Not heaven, but God's renewed earth. Big difference.
June 28, 2007 6:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 18:35
Amen Mr. Baum! Thank you! It was never my intention to make you think I believed differently, perhaps I do not always word things correctly. God is LOVE and Christ is His greatest gift to us. The Bible teaches us that we can never be separated from Gods love. But we can be separated from His presence. This is what I meant. He cannot look on sin...
I am reading so much hate here...It is truly sad.
It is Blasphemy: Almighty God is just that Almighty. But remember Genesis teaches us that God created man in His own likeness. He also gave us the gift of free will. This is why He does not prevent us from making choices, whether right or wrong. He continuously draws us, if we listen, to Himself that we may see ourselves through His eyes and thus see the changes we need to make. It is not by good works we get to Heaven, it is the gift of God-GRACE, meaning unmerited favor. God sees our hearts and what is in them.
Mr. Zeller: Read the language of your passages and ask yourself these question, "what does the world see in me? More importantly, what does God see in me?" "Am I helping Him to build His Kingdom, or am I helping to destroying His Temple?" Your Messiah was clearly portrayed in your Holy Scriptures. He was clearly portrayed in Christ Jesus. Who has hardened your heart? Even Nicodemus, a great leader of his time, could see who Jesus was and Who He came from.
Jesus said, "You will know my people by their love", all you say comes from a heart filled with hate. Is this how God wants you to live-be?
SELAH
June 28, 2007 5:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 17:09
HEAVEN and HELL:
"They say of some temporal suffering, 'No future bliss can make up for it,' not knowing that HEAVEN, once attained, will work backwards and turn even that agony into a glory. And of some sinful pleasure they say 'Let me but have this and I'll take the consequences': little dreaming how damnation will spread back and back into their past and contaminate the pleasure of the sin. Both processes begin even before death. The good man's past begins to change so that his forgiven sins and remembered sorrows take on the quality of HEAVEN: the bad man's past already conforms to his badness and is filled only with dreariness. And that is why, at the end of all things . . . the Blessed will say, "We have never lived anywhere except in HEAVEN,' and the Lost, "We were always in HELL.' And both will speak truly."
C S Lewis
THE GREAT DIVORCE
June 28, 2007 3:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 15:54
Don:
GKC,
"Where do you get your information that God's realm is not a space within time and history. This sounds like modern physics applied to the heaven / hell concept and I doubt it is delineated in the bible, but only in the most nonspecific allegorical terms.
Again, every reader of the bible from the 4th century on, felt jesus was returning in their liftime based on the apocalyptic theme of the new testament, and they were wrong."
The Christian faith gets this from the doctrine that God "wholly other." Being "wholly other" means that God is not confined to space and time, although God values space and time and this is most evident in God's desire to reclaim all of creation upon the return of Jesus. The doctrine that God is "wholly other" is held in tension with the doctrine that God is also "imminently present" within space and time. You need both of these doctrines to be within the definition of orthodox Christianity.
Regarding your comment about "every reader of the bible from the 4th century on, felt jesus was returning in their liftime based on the apocalyptic theme of the new testament, and they were wrong," I would also add that Christians are called to live on this earth in such a way that anticipates the day when Jesus returns to reclaim all of creation. This leads to the work of the church for peace and justice in our communities and world, as well as ecological concerns, etc.
Just because Jesus didn't return in a particular lifetime of a generation, does not mean that they were wrong to anticipate the 2nd coming of Jesus.
June 28, 2007 12:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 12:29
To BGONE:
You seem to applaud confusion (i.e. analogous to those in Romans 1:32, "they not only do evil but applaud those who do it"). What do we make of the cynic who mocks and denies the possibility of affirming any and all truth without recognizing that in that case he best be quiet?
It would be a poorer world without judgement of evil. The work of Christ (and of the church) is to embody the healing and wholeness of God, to counter that which degrades and deprives, that which destroys and finally can only mock at God's way of life and love. In that sense judgement as the decisive final word on evil is good news! For the rest, people have made all sorts of things out of hell, C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, has some pertinent things to say.
Peace,
Ben Wiebe
June 28, 2007 12:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 12:24
It is Blasphemy:
It seems to me that your diatribe against almighty God, as you put it, makes you look extrememly JEALOUS because He is getting his way and you are not.
Which to me is what heaven and hell is in the end: God's way of giving you what you want.
June 28, 2007 12:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 12:11
GKC,
Where do you get your information that God's realm is not a space within time and history. This sounds like modern physics applied to the heaven / hell concept and I doubt it is delineated in the bible, but only in the most nonspecific allegorical terms.
Again, every reader of the bible from the 4th century on, felt jesus was returning in their liftime based on the apocalyptic theme of the new testament, and they were wrong.
June 28, 2007 8:39 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 08:39
Heaven is often referred to in Christian theology as God's realm that is separated from earth by a very thin space. The Jewish people believed that God's realm was present on earth through the presence of the Temple and the reading of the Torah (Books of the Law.)
God's realm is not a space within time and history but will one day ultimately fill the whole earth when Jesus returns and God will renew all of creation and God's people will receive resurrected bodies.
June 28, 2007 7:21 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 07:21
Jesus was an apocalyptic first century Jew who thought the second coming of the Son of Man (it is not certain he was referring to himself) would occur before the lifetimes of the followers he was speaking to were over. This flaw in his prophetic power unfortunately leads to skepticism concerning many of his prophecies.
The dribble in many of the previous posts is continued evidence that the application of modern thought to the biblical paradigm is frought with absurdity. It is impossible to mix modern reductionist thought with biblical philosophy. The biblical passages must be taken in context to start to have any understanding of what the bible is trying to say.
These are not my concepts but those of Professor Bart D. Ehrman at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
M.Div., Ph.D., Princeton Theological Seminary.
He teaches a wonderful course on the new testament that can be downloaded at:
http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=656&pc=Search.
I personally don't believe there is a location on a universal map where heaven is located because the concept is fraught with contradictions. Because the bible is so vague about the specifics of heaven and hell, and most of these concepts were written when the Ptolemeic system of the universe was the accepted dogma on the subject, has lead theologians to play a game of smoke and mirrors to try to calm the masses about their eventual death.
I hope I am wrong.
There are many concepts in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism that can be integrated into our daily lives to make them richer. I prefer to look for and integrate those positives and try not to be a skeptic. These are tangible and real for me and at the end of each day I can look back at how those positives helped make my life and the people around me incrementally better. That is heaven on earth for me.
June 28, 2007 6:04 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 28, 2007 06:04
Where is the fourth state of Israel?!!!!!!!
-ask Him.
Which wine does the world get drunk on?
What does Jesus mean when he says "they are forever percieving but never understanding".
-ask Him.
Why Does God continually mention anatomy in his message?
Do you really believe that proverbs is just a set of rules to follow?
How often do you say aloud "I seek understanding, I cry out for insight":
- do you understand the the purpose of the numbers?
- do you ask God the purpose of the fantastic stories?
Do you understand that this world is afflicted with spirits.
- and do you think about how specifically spirits affect us.
Do you think God's worthy counselor has a conversation with you?!!!!!!!
- if you do, you might want to read the book of Jerimiah!
- does God's tone in the Bible match this voice's tone?
- do you laugh along with its clever wit?
Do You assume a seat in the Great Hall? (Proverbs)
Do you soley rely on man's interpretations in the commentaries at the bottom of the Bible?!!!!!!!
**************************************************
Lastly, with regards to spirits, if you are overcome with emotion and confounded with an endless maze of questions;
- REMEMBER His words:
- "I did not give you a spirit of fear".
June 27, 2007 10:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 27, 2007 22:35
Almighty God and almighty God alone shall decide. Whatever almighty God wants almighty God will get. To say that almighty God does not want people to do whatever it is people do whenever they do it is blasphemy. If God didn't want it then people could not do it, by the definition of almighty God.
The above is so unless almighty God wants people in hell. The results of doing what almighty God allows but does not want is hell. Therefore at just one level deep in the logic we come right back to almighty God getting what almighty God wants. In the second level that's a pit of fire full of people.
Since almighty God gets everything almighty God wants we can say that whatever happens almighty God must want else it can't happen. So the following must be the case:
1. The God advertised as almighty is not almighty
2. Any God that wants people in hell is devil by definition of devil. So that fellow here who says Moses made a deal with the devil is on target. Devil is not almighty by definition else he would be God.
Is there a psychiatrist in the house?
June 27, 2007 9:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 27, 2007 21:52
Christians of various denominations - please be kind to each other - you're going to have to spend an eternity in heaven together.
June 27, 2007 9:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 27, 2007 21:51
Harold Zeller states: "You so called christians and catholics are Mindless, Godless, Heartless, Soulless, DOGS"
Actually, Catholics come under the larger category of christian.
June 27, 2007 9:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 27, 2007 21:31
To Beth: Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews said, "My Kingdom is not of this world". To Rvalade: Hell is real but Jesus won the keys to hell, also the keys to spiritual death, which He will use in due time, don't underestimate the mercy of God, God did not ask us to be better or more forgiving than Him, everybody will be in the Kingdom, don't forget about the mysterious Plan of God. Actually what Jesus taught us is so simple, yet so hard that we totally miss what He taught at times. Hell is not seperation from God, that is spiritual death, hell is going to God and experiencing all of your wrongdoing, unforgiveness and judgementalism in the light of Pure Love rather than being embraced by it but don't worry it only lasts for eternity and eternity ends on the morning of the seventh day of course you won't know that, you see Jesus really did try to teach us hard heads. Repenting means being sorry, not trying to con God, God is so much nicer than you would probably ever think that He is by listening to what a lot of people that call themselves christians say. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
June 27, 2007 7:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 27, 2007 19:28
E FAVORITE, we must put our faith in ministers. They have studied the sacred scriptures and know what they say. The sacred scriptures are beyond common bundles to read and understand themselves.
So yes, "N. T. Wright is: the Right Here On Earth Concrete Answers Guy" for the common bundles,, with ______ for brains.
June 27, 2007 5:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 27, 2007 17:52