All Comments (16)

What can make one irrational or delusional is the henious nature of sin itself. The absolute depravity that clandestinely remains cleverly hidden in the human heart.
I am learning to forgive myself but how do I forgive others? The pastors kid that molested me, my parent who didn't protect me, my violent pediphile father who murdered my brother, the coroner's office who didn't adequately clean up the crime scene (I did)... or even God who has allowed me to suffer so much physical pain and disability... and worse of all the mental anguish of severe ptsd.
All this and God did not make forgiveness an option. I must find a way to forgive even the journalists and media who used this story for monetary benefit. I have to forgive. Not just for the benefit it will bring to me personaly, I can imagine it could be profound, not because others may benefit but because I know God's nature is good and gracious even though I don't get that at all. Would you consider praying for me as I try to put into action what is here?

I am happy to see there is some intelligent conversation happening on this forum. I am tired of the pseudo-intellectual arguments of those who have a hidden agenda to purge the world of people of faith (i.e. - Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, etc.). I think that people should be able to say they disagree and that they believe god(s) do not exist, but they should not be so arrogant to think they have a corner on truth. If you do not believe in the Christian God or a god(s) at all please bring your arguments to forums such as this; But do not pretend that the universe has bestowed you with absolute truth and that anyone who has come to believe in a god(s) irrational or worse "delusional."

Steven, In my view (I am a right wing, fundamentalist Christian)you are not responsible.
Christ laid down His life as a ransom for many. The mechanics of how God accoplished that,is a deep theological issue, that we can not address on this forum.

Then neither am I responsible for the death of Jesus.

Steven. Yes Peter did say that. I provided the reference. If Jesus prayed for their forgiveness then obviously those being prayed for were doing the deed.Lk.23:34 Those who heard Peter's sermon did repent and were forgiven as it says in Acts2.
Anyway the Jews of today are NOT reponsible for the actions of their ancestors in the first century.

Did Peter say that?

Did he not know that Jesus had asked God to forgive his killers on the cross?

Well read what Peter said. You (Men of Israel) killed the Lord by the hand of gentiles (Rome) like David killed Uriah by the hand of the Amorites.
Acts 2:22-24

It was Jesus who laid down the principle that Jews of one generation should bear part of the guilt for a murder committed 2,000 years before any of them were born.

1:49-53 'Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.'

Of course, Jesus was talking in 30 AD or so, and Jews were killed in 70 AD or so, so he got the wrong generation....

Poor bloomin' Jews still getting the blame for killing Jesus. Pilate is equally to blame he could have said 'no way fellahs, this guy is innocent (and he did think Jesus innocent)' and with the might of Rome behind him Jesus could so easily have been spared.

So let's give the Jews a break and lay the death of Jesus at the feet of the Italians for a change.

Anyway, wasn't Jesus a willing victim, willing in the sense that he wanted to do the will of God the Father (someone else with power to stop the crucifixion). So we could blame God (but only after the Italians have had a couple of millennia of blame first).

I know this for sure - it wasn't me! I wasn't there!

DAVID
We all killed him, didn't we?

CARR
So humanity, including the Jews of today, should make atonement for the Act of Atonement?

Who killed Uriah the Hitite? The prophet said that David did. Why? for the same reason that Peter says that the Jews killed Jesus

We all killed him, didn't we?

Or take Luke 11:49-53 'Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.'

Should Jews of one day really apologise for somebody they killed 2,000 years ago?

It strikes me as a completely different spirit, Steven. When someone of that time apologized for the sins of their fathers, they were owning up to them as their sins. When someone today does it, there is an air of "well I never would have done that."

WRIGHT
Part of the difficulty in the recent cult of apology is the people go about apologizing for things they didn't do and wouldn't have done, but apologizing on behalf of their predecessors. This has all kinds of oddities about it.

CARR
1 Samuel 15:2 'This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.'

Why should the Amalekites not have apologised on behalf of their predecessors?

This goes to what makes me uncomfortable about the demand that all Muslims apologize for terrorism, or all Catholics apologize for -- well, whatever the hierarchy is currently up to.
I can express pain and dismay at the pope's, or a priest's, words and actions. I can be genuinely sorry that it happened. Most importantly, as a member of the "club" I can work to ensure that such people, such words and such actions do not continue to represent my community.
An apology from me does not remove a corrupt person from a position of authority (see GW Bush comments on a previous thread) and might even be seen as a substitute for taking precautions that it not occur again.