All Comments (27)

I think these are not the kinds of prayer that I have been loooking for. May be they are where can we get our prayer and how.

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Amen, Anonymous!

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NEAL JETTPACE: When I read the NIV - New Testiment earlier last year I was astonished to find no real guidance in the text as to which statements from whom were to be followed, or which were more important than others. The only real exceptance to this is Jesus' commandment "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor like yourself".

Hi,Neal,

It seems to me that the whole Bible has to be reåd with this saying as axiomatic. When we find something that doesn't seemt to conform to it, then what doesn't conform must not be taken literally or we must admit that we don't understand it. How can this be, if the Bible is to be a guide?

It seems to me that this very question comes out of a set of assumptions which are not presented in the Bible itself: first, that the Bible itself promises to answer all of our questions, and, second, that when we do our best to interpret the Bible, if we are sincere, we will indeed necessarily understand what is objectively, morally right.

Right there we run into a humongous problem: if we can't trust our sincerely made interpretations, why try to read the Bible at all?

ISTM that the answer is that God has not promised us that He will answer *all* of our questions and that He has not promised us that we will make no mistaken moral judgments. What He has promised is that if we love Him and our neighbors as ourselves then in ourlater life all will be well. This, of course, implies that it is our *intentions* (our will to do right) which count more than our actually doing what what seems to be the best possible at the moment. Again, what is axiomatic in Christianity is *doing* what we think is the loving thing. (No, action isn't literally an "axiom" in the mathematical sense, but you get my meaning.)

Some of the contemporary Christian theologians talk not just about "orthodoxy" (right thinking) but also about "orthopraxis" (right doing) and see the latter as most essential to being a Christian. (No dout this is why many now accept non-Christians who do good as eligible for Heaven :-)

Even as someone who is very scientifically oriented and who won't give up reason to mystical or faith-based contradictions, I can accept the superiority of *intending* what is good over simply *knowing* what is good and even of *accomplishing* what is objvectively good. But it is, I grant you, quite mysterious how this can be. It is all part of the mystery of the imperfection of this world, including the suffering of innocents and the being-a-good-person while not doing-a-good-deed.

How these can be part of God's plan for the world at this point in salvation history is simply beyond me. These very real theological problems are why I think that if God is truly just there must be a Heaven where all of these imperfections are finally made perfect. If God *is* Love, it has to be that way. Otherwise, as St. Paul says, we Christians are the greatest of fools.

Ann O.

Though I disagree with BGone's stridency, I think he does raise very legitimate questions. The answer always seems to be "God, Jesus, Salvation and the Bible are all complicated. We're still trying to figure this out."

The point against literal readings is very well made and I agree with it. Jesus indeed teaches his most devoted followers with parables, indicating that a literal reading of the text is not appropriate for us as well.

But to simply say things are complicated is really a retreat to an area where one doesn't have to make predictions or unverifiable claims of existences. As well, it begs the question: what does it mean to be a Christian?

I find that most liberal Christians readily accept Paul's beautiful descriptions of love in his 1st letter to the Church in Corinth. But at the same time they reject his admonitions in the very same letter for women to keep quite. And even the fundamentalists reject Paul's sanction of slavery in three separate letters (slaves be obedient to your masters as all authority comes from God).

When I read the NIV - New Testiment earlier last year I was astonished to find no real guidance in the text as to which statements from whom were to be followed, or which were more important than others. The only real exceptance to this is Jesus' commandment "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor like yourself".

However Jesus says lots of things and Paul says even more, and amongst those we are simply left to our own devices as to how to proceed. The result is some umpteen million denominations, each with their own version of what statements are more important and what less so.

All to often I see people take a phrase here and sow it to a phrase there and call it a theology. In fact they are simply choosing those statement they like and feel are important and ignoring or interpreting the others in such a way as to suit their needs. In this fashion they can still be Christians (as being guided by Biblical text) while hewing to their own inclinations morally and ethically.

Though I disagree with the fundamentalists on most every level, I do admit there is ample evidence for their approach to things in the Biblical Text. It is for this reason that I choose not to be Christian.

Rather than claim that those passeges I disagree with are not important or are to be interpreted differently, I say those passages are there, I have no reason to believe they are any more nor less important than others and I disagree with them. As such I can't honestly say I am a Christian guided by the Bible.

Of course all this is nothing new. People of all faiths everywhere and throughout history have argued and debated the role and meaning of their sacred texts. Many times the losers in these debates were executed, many still are. It is my personal belief that we humans still have a long way to go toward becoming mature ethical creatures, no matter which text we adhere to and which we reject.

Dear Ann:

There's good news!!! I prayed hard and my prayers were answered. We have decided to use the same rules for football used by golfers, LOW SCORE WINS. Whoopeeee!!! We won!!! So there, pfffftht.

Unlike those savage selfish Colts we have decided to let them THINK they won and hold a victory parade, a consolation prize of a sorts. They'll catch their deats of colds from holding victory parades this time of year anyhow. The ones that live will have to go to Washington, sin city and be pawed and druelled over by Dubya. Thank God the Bears will be spared that embarrassment. It's a case of losers who thought they won getting together to gloat.

I was inspired by Jesus. Jesus turned crucifixion into a winning situation. What's a silly football game compared to that? Imagine how the bishops answered Constantine when he quizzed them about how a crucifixion could be turned into a winner. All things are possible with God, or is that the Devil that made them do that?

It took a little push and shove, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul kind of thing but we came through the devistating disaster of losing the super bowl, the most important event since Pat Robertson spoke to God.

sincerely,
born again

Dear Ann:

Thank you for your pitty. There isn't a dry eye left in Chicago. Wait until next year I always say. Then we're praying to the proper God so out team can win. Just another case of praying to the wrong God being busy. The great god of gamblers, George will see us through. Thank you again for your sympathy.

yours truly,
crushed

AW, B'GONE. Sorry about that. Me, I was for Peyton, whose father (Archie Manning) was a Saint. Is there a lesson there? (heh heh)

Ann O.

Dear Ann:

None of my prayers are being answered. The Bears were winning and now they're losing with their star running back out for the rest of the game. This is in spite of praying hard for the Bears to win.

Does God hate Chicago? I have a huge bet on the Bears and have already lost my pool picks at both ends of quarters.

Whatever shall I do?

Yours truly,
disappointed

PS I knew I should have prayed to the KENO god, George instead of those phony Bible Gods. It's too late now. Next year I'm saving all my prayers for George.

B'GONE says: There are 6 places in the Gospels, (good news) where Jesus directly threatens us with hell.

The word Christ means savior, the one that saves Christians from hell.

You are a Christian that does NOT believe in hell?

Hi, B'GONE,

More than anything else Jesus saves us from ourselves == our inclinations to do what we shouldn't and not to do what we should, and from our bad choices. In other words, He saves us from our sins. He remakes us, if you will, if we will but let HIm.

Remember, Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors, exaggerated for effect and used images already in His culture to convey His message. So you really must get past all that literal interpretation. Not that Jesus wasn't trying to make some extremely strong statements about sin and salvation (being remade). He was. Acting like a Christian is not easy, and He holds us responsible for our choices. And if we refuse the help He offers there are consequences -- including not reaching Heavenly bliss, but being condemned by our own choice to be separated from Him who is our only true fulfillment.

Some Christian theologians even think that after those who are damned to their own unfulfillment die they'll be somehow given another chance -- that God is that merciful. I don't know about that, but I'd like to believe it. I do believe that He above all wants our happiness, so He is merciful and forgiving.

Did you know that the most repeated sentence in the whole Bible is "Be not afraid"? And we need never be afraid that He wants to condemn us to demons and fire forever. That's the last thing He wants.

I'm not a theologian, so I can't tell you much about the current understanding of "salvation" by non-fundamentalists. These other theologians (the nonfundamentalist ones) are still mining Scripture for deeper understandings of just what "salvation" means on its deepest levels.

Now back to the SuperBowl :-)

Ann O.

Ahhh, you should read the good bishop's book "The Last Word" where he takes you through the meaning and history of the 'Authority' of scripture and what that actually means.

Scripture can be 'The Word of God' without being taken literally at all times in all places. Genre is an important part of reading the Bible and knowing what type of literature you are dealing with can change the way you understand the meaning of the words written. Also, the Scriptures must be read with a good understanding of the context in which they were written.

So when I say I don't believe in the 'traditional' view of Hell, maybe what I mean to say is that I don't believe in the 'fundamentalist, literalist, modern, pop-culture' view of Hell. Thank you for making me clarify that. But I do trust the scriptures and don't think i'm "musing at the ceiling c[o]njuring" at all. I am using the scriptures, however, along with reason, imagination, community, and tradition (for better or worse) to help me understand the big picture.

RB - Do you think Contemplative prayer is similar to the second type of prayer that Bishop Wright mentions? If not, what would you say are the differences?

KEVIN - You said, "I do not take the traditional view of hell" Question: What is the source of your view of hell? Keep in mind that you are allowed to muse at the ceiling and conjure you very own version of everything. Musing at the ceiling and cinjuring is not the problem. The problem is saying that which is conjured is the absolute word of God, getting lame brains to faith it when it includes the greates terror anyone can imagine, hell, (if a greater terror than hell is discovered hell will immediately become it).

Let's face it, Bubba is terrorized by threats of hell. He's not a deep thinker and is simply taking two things for granted.

1) The Bible is the absolute word of God.
2) Preachers are God's agents, vicars with power of attorney for God.

Bubba is the victim of a confidence scam, confidence in the preacher who uses the Bible as both his source of authority and the diversionary device required in the con. No matter what question one asks the Bible has the answer even though any two answers may contradict each other. When all else fails with Bubba just mention the fires of hell. Threats of hell is how Bubba is kept in line. That's being argued, has been here as a good thing for Bubba is probably not capable of being herded without hell.

I've thought it through and done a little research myself. I'm far from perfect, still learning and believe I have an open mind.

Then there is CONTEMPLATIVE prayer - a movement beyond conversation with the Ultimate based on thoughts, words, emotions - to the simple opening of one's being to the Ultimate's being; and historically termed the prayer of "the heart," "of simple regard," "of simplicity," and in the 20th C as Centering Prayer.

RB

Bgone,

Thanks for the assignment. I will see if I can find some time to do the research. However, I would like to know if you have done the research or have you just read a webpage by Bill Hunt? Either way is fine, but I actually have done quite a bit of research in my journey to find some answers. So don't patronize everyone you meet on a message board.

Although I may not have clearly stated it, I do not take the traditional view of hell as you would have me do. I do think Jesus is serious, however, and is pointing to something when he speaks of hell--but exactly what that is I am unsure of.

My point is that there is much more than hell in the story of salvation. You seemed to skip right over that point in my post.

Kevin, there's just one little assignment for you. Go back into the historical record and find the first mention of hell. Then ask yourself a simple question: why did Jesus accept "that" hell? Once you realize the hell of which Jesus speaks is the same hell Pharaoh used to threaten Egyptians, you have arrived. Jesus was either a Pharaoh or one who wished to be "like unto" Pharaoh. Hoax buster, Bill Hunt nailed it. Jesus is actually Amenophis IV, "The Amen the faithful and true wittness" of divine Revelation.

The hell preachers have a lot to pray for and pary hard for too I might add. That story is out and it will stay out. It's just a matter of time until Bubba finds out and what happens then is anyone's guess, a little curshing and gnashing of teeth perhaps.

It's at http://www.hoax-buster.org page 2 and in English. And all over the world in the hands of those that will not forget or let it die. It's awfully hard to get rid of the truth. There's no such thing as a "stone wall" that tall.

I realize this is all off-topic. To bring it back to prayer, though, I would offer that prayer can be recognizing this good God who desires salvation for the kosmos, seeing how this good God brings about transformation in his world, and in response offering our thanks. In turn, prayer allows us to be more aware of our own lives and the lives of those around us, enabling us to see the brokenness in the world how God sees it, with grieving hearts, and to be agents of reconciliation and transformation for the world around us. It may sound super-spiritual, but I promise you, it is not.

BGone,

Jesus saves us from many things, possibly including Hell but also ourselves, destructive social systems, inner torment, alienation, self-destructive habits, etc. Salvation is a much bigger idea than 'saving my soul from hell' which seems to dominate the general public's idea of what Christianity is about.

Salvation is much more than 'soul saving', it includes all of creation. "For God so loved the 'Kosmos' that he gave his only begotten son... (Kosmos=greek, It can mean the entire created order, the world system, or everything in the world.) We are talking about much more than people here, though of course, not less.

There is a problem in the world (i.e., evil, sin, brokenness, etc.) and the Jewish and Chrisian Scriptures take that very seriously by recognizing that escape is not the answer, but transformation is.

As a Christian I don't hope for life after death floating on a cloud, singing songs all day. I don't fear the fiery pits of hell, which is nothing but good imagery gone literally wrong. I do hope in a good God who desires for his creation, ALL of his creation, the fullness of life.

rambling,
Kevin

Ann O & Bgone,

Yes, it is clear that Jesus teaches that there is a Hell. What is wonderful is that those that are His--that are saved by His work on the cross are saved from that Hell. What is so hard to understand about that?

Dear Ann O:

There are 6 places in the Gospels, (good news) where Jesus directly threatens us with hell.

The word Christ means savior, the one that saves Christians from hell.

You are a Christian that does NOT believe in hell?

Yours,
confused

B'GONE: Terror is terror and there is no greater terror than the fires of hell

Ann O.: Not my problem -- I don't believe that there's any such thing as a fierey hell with demons and all that terrifying stuff. You seem to assume that all Christians and other believers believe in it. Not so.

I've noticed on this blog that that is a fairly common belief among atheists and agnostics -- that all believers believe in Hell. You really must get past that.

Ann O.

Hi yourself Anne:
No, I do not assume good fuzzy feelings from God's grace. I see the terror of hell in the minds of those who seek God's grace. I know most people don't bother thinking about hell much but neither do they bother thinking about another 9-11 much. But when they do think about hell or 9-11 the hair comes up on the backs of their necks and they are terrorized. That puts God in the same category, variety of things as Osama bin-Laden. By the grace of bin-Laden? Same as by the grace of God?

Sacrifices to gods appease them. Sacrifices to bin-Laden appeases him. In both cases it's just temporary appeasement. Gods are forever acting up and need re-appeasing.

Terror is terror and there is no greater terror than the fires of hell. Hell fire comes by the grace of God and bin-Laden, one being just about as mighty as the other, can't blow own nose, must have people do all the heavy lifting.

Rethink your definition of God and learn the real history of the one in the dictionary. It's as phony as the Bible, a proved hoax. Hell is a hoax but bin-Laden still thinks he's God and can create hell right here and now. He needs a lot of help from people even though he's more mighty than Allah. Can your God whop Allah?

B'GONE tells us: Prayer, drugs and alcohol all do the same thing spiritually, they bring temporary relief to the fear of death and are all habit forming, addictive. Maybe the FDA should regulate praying?

Hi, B'GONE,

No, they don't. They just make us feel better (sometimes). That is not the same thing as receiving the grace of God to do stuff we really don't want to do, even extremely hard stuff.

You assume that a religious life is an easier one, one filled with consolations and fuzzy good feelings. It isn't.

Ann O.

Nice try bishop but you left out the "born again" reason that is mandatory. I'm not going to write this again but let me invite you to review my post on Dr Borg's thread. Prayer, drugs and alcohol all do the same thing spiritually, they bring temporary relief to the fear of death and are all habit forming, addictive. Maybe the FDA should regulate praying?

Wonderful post from a man who truly knows the BCP.

Dear Bishop Wright: May our God count you worthy of His calling, and by His power may He fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.

Are not all forms of prayer the same?

We might state there are 3 or 10 or 1000 types of prayer... but really are not all forms of prayer:

A form of affirmation to connect to the larger state of our reality?

And if that is so: would it be the case prayer is constant, within each and every action of ours:

and then of course that would ripple down to all actions being holy

and then it ripples to us, all being connected , and of one and god.

and then... its returns back.. we are each who we are. God or not, religion or not:

our actions, our life is a prayer of acceptance of our nature.

and the point?

each prayer is the same, a rippling out for wholeness and connection:

I suppose the point is live and live well as if your entire life was a hymn, a prayer. Our actions spinning a prayer wheel... which is our life itself... within each wonderful moment we breath out... as ourselves.

Peace and acceptance in your prayers
http://www.personaltao.com/

It is important to point out that Bp Wright is not talking about praying to the Deist god, imploring, cajoling, bribing that god to act. Bp. Wright's God is active at every point and time in Creation. Not "interventionist" but completing engaged.