"Arguments about jihad or the role of women or apostasy are prone to turn into battles of quotations, in which one side or the other attempts to triumphantly cite a verse (often in translation, and without context) supporting a particular view, only to be answered by a competing citation."

True.

But one should also take into account which verses are the most recent "revelation" from Allah. In the Quran, chapters are not placed by chronological order but by length. As I understand it, Sura 9, which is very violent, is the final "revelation" to Muhammad and abrogates previous verses.

I do wish that you had included some Muslim reformers in this discussion. The names Stephen Schwartz and Tawfik Hamid come first to my mind in that regard.

Maybe, while you're at it, you could ask them to explain this...

"Anyone who describes Islam as an intolerant religion encourages violence." ~ Tasnim Aslam, Pakistan Foreign Ministry spokeswoman

The last sermon of the Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that HE will indeed reckon your deeds. Allah has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. Allah has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib (his uncle) shall henceforth be waived...

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before Allah and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, NO PROPHET OR APOSTLE WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my example, the Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O Allah, that I have conveyed your message to your people".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When he finished his farewell speech, the following revelations come to him, the final verse of the Qur'an.
"...This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion..." (Quran 5:3).

A.Evans- you misunderstood.

this is a good base to understanding the message of the Prophet(pbuh)

It is an exhortion to peace, honesty, and total equality of humankind.

peace

"It is an exhortion to peace, honesty, and total equality of humankind.

peace"

Victoria,

Are there any problems in the Muslim world that urgently NEED to be addressed or is it all PEACE, HONESTY and EQUALITY in the Muslim world?

How are you and your coreligionists living out this exhortion in the greater world?

It occurs to me that the Islamic world is about 300 - to - 400 years behind the Western world (excluding Christianity, of course) with regard to the evolution of 'thought'. That means that at the present pace, we should not expect the Islamic world to experience an 'Enlightenment', and an ensuing 'Age of Reason' until about 2300, at the earliest.

I really don't think that we can afford to wait that long.

Victoria,

If you can find Prof. Berlinerblau's latest thread (WAPO has moved it from its former prominent location) you'll find my answers to the questions you asked me about footnotes. His thread had been moved before I was able to respond to you.

Regards.

Recently I had a discussion with my family as to why American Muslim Leaders were silent on the atrocities committed by the violent muslims in Iraq and other countrie.
I am reading with much interest the beliefs of the Muslims you have chosen for your project.
will you be having any American muslim regious leaders speak out as well?
I am glad i have discovered your "On Faith' project.
I will be spending some time with you from now on.

Thank you and prosit.

Recently I had a discussion with my family as to why American Muslim Leaders were silent on the atrocities committed by the violent muslims in Iraq and other countrie.
I am reading with much interest the beliefs of the Muslims you have chosen for your project.
will you be having any American muslim regious leaders speak out as well?
I am glad i have discovered your "On Faith' project.
I will be spending some time with you from now on.

Thank you and prosit.

The problems in Muslim countries have nothing to do with the religion of Islam and everything to do with culture, traditions and other non-Islamic influences. Throughout history, non-Muslims (Jews and Christians)lived peacefully in Muslim countries. Not all Muslims are educated which would explain the way they treat each other in Muslim countries and they twist the words of the Quran for their own benefit. It's also common sense that if you're mistreating other humans, animals, etc. that it must have nothing to do with God/Allah and thus, is not in the Quran. Politics also have a huge impact on everything that's happening on that side of the planet. We constantly hear it but it seems as though there are still alot of people who are either in denial, scared of something, or refuse to educate themselves and instead decide to believe what other people will have them believe.
To understand that the Quran does indeed urge peace and forgiveness and warn of the consequences on the Day of Judgement, one has to stop skipping to specific verses and read the entire book from cover to cover. Only then will one truly understand. Stop listening to others and just read. Afterall, that is the literal meaning of the word Quran. It is RECITATION. God's recitation of everything we need to know.
God/Allah says in the Quran that He made us all into tribes and nations so that we may KNOW each other and not despise each other.
It's all there for anyone to read and understand and stop listening to others who's only interest might be their own.

Recently I had a discussion with my family as to why American Muslim Leaders were silent on the atrocities committed by the violent muslims in Iraq and other countrie.
I am reading with much interest the beliefs of the Muslims you have chosen for your project.
will you be having any American muslim regious leaders speak out as well?
I am glad i have discovered your "On Faith' project.
I will be spending some time with you from now on.

Thank you and prosit.

"Muslims speak out" matters alot & is a very commendable act for it educates & blot out lot of misconception about islam.Just recently one of my co-workers sent a e-mail to some of us talking about a verse in the Holy Quran which is completely different from what the verse says and i had to rectify them about the verse and every one was amazed about the two completely deferent verses & they also said that from now on any thing they hear or read from others they will have to varify it first before they believed any of it especially about islam. Praise be to the Almighty Allah.

Victoria,
"O People, listen to me in earnest, worship Allah, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to."

That sounds wonderful--practicing a personal faith. A faith which doesn't persecute those who try to leave Islam nor to create the caliphate.

But the fact remains that Sura 9 is still in the Quran.

And what about the concept of abrogation of verses?

If what you quoted was the final word of Allah to Muhammad, then why does jihadism proliferate over the centuries?

And one more thing....Those words you quoted sound like a farewell speech and not like the "revelation" of Allah. Perhaps that's how the jihadists ignore the peaceful words.

Islam as a personal faith is a good thing. But when it is practiced as part of a larger geopolitical ideology, it becomes something else entirely.

I would like to share some thoughts about Muslims believe in One, Unique, Incomparable God; in the Angels created by Him; in the prophets through whom His revelations were brought to mankind; in the Day of Judgement and individual accountability for actions; in God's complete authority over human destiny and in life after death. Muslims believe in a chain of prophets starting with Adam and including Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Elias, Jonah, John the Baptist, Jesus and Muhammad , peace be upon them. Together with Judaism, they go back to the prophet and patriarch Abraham, and their three prophets are directly descended from his sons, Muhammad from the elder son Ishmael, and Moses and Jesus from the younger son Isaac.

It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world. History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance towards other faiths: when the caliph Omar entered Jerusalem in the year 634, Islam granted freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city. Islamic law also permits non-Muslim minorities to set up their own courts, which implement family laws drawn up by the minorities themselves.

What would you tell suicide bombers who invoke Islam to justify their actions?

I would say to them not only in peace but also in war Islam prohibits terrorism, kidnapping, suicide bombers and hijacking, when carried against anyone. Whoever commits such violations is considered a murderer in Islam, and is to be punished by the Islamic state. During wars, Islam prohibits Muslim soldiers from harming civilians, women, children, elderly, and the religious men like priests and rabies. It also prohibits cutting down trees and destroying civilian constructions.

TIM- i would venture to say that there are problems in the world with human beings of all stripes-
can you think of any group anywhere thats adherents are all in sync and representative of perfect peace and harmony?

certainly there are many issues that need to be addressed in the muslim world-

but they are primarily socio-political.

this is america, and we know the difference between political causes and religious interpretations.

for instance, on fox tv right now, they are airing a program theyve renamed (from islam vs. islamists) to muslims against jihad.

however, having watched the whole thing twice already- (it was banned from pbs for its negative stereotyping and islamophobic message)- there are no muslims against what the western perception of the lesser jihad! (holy war, also a western crusader term ascribed to muslims- but not based in islam)
i consistently say on these boards, let people define themselves.

listen to a jewish person represent their faith, an atheist their philosophy, and a muslim theirs etc...

i was not born a muslim, but a blue eyed white woman in america- with all its attendant advantages and social indoctrinations.

i became muslim 8 years ago, not because i married one, but because i was searching for the best way to worship god- alone- and i asked for 2 years- (god, i mean) for the best way to serve her/him.

i found the truest and most egalitarian message in islam- there is not even a concept of a male godhead in islam!

and all are equal-

believe it or believe fox news, but that is seminal to the message.

it is the word of the god through the angel gabriel to the last prophet sent to this earth.

i do believe in one god- always have, and the many distractions in my life that have precluded me from serving humanity in the most selfless manner possible- are realized in islam for me.

all i can do is be a voice of reason, and peace.

man is not a peaceful creature by nature, and the biggest complaints that seem to be made are that the qu'ran actually addresses this issue.

how does a peaceful person force non-peaceful people to peace?

only by appealing to their higher nature.

but what recourse is there when these appeals are met with consistent violence?

what are the deterrants to malice in the western system?

prison?
if that were truly effective, we would have reached a utopian peace by now-

instead, our prisons have corrupted into a bizarre money making business.

in iraq we have embarked upon this "pre-emptive strike".

(if individuals pre-emptively strike each other, its called a sucker punch, and only the most cowardly of bullies do this)

but in the macro-cosm of the world theatre, this is an honorable way to behave?

in islam, only defensive measures are allowed.
this is the codified laws of war and engagement.
and the rules are non-combatants, animals and even trees are not allowed to be agressed upon!

even if you encounter a COMBATANT and he says 'peace', you must treat him with mercy.

just for saying 'peace'!

are these backward or unenlightened ideas as suggested by a previous poster?

when a palestinian teenager straps a bomb on himself and blows up innocents, he is not acting from a qu'ranic injunction- which proclaims that if you kill one innocent person unjustly it is as if you have killed the whole world- likewise, if you save one persons life, it is as if you have saved the whole of humanity-

he is being manipulated by political forces that render him and his powerless-

is he going to heaven for his actions?
no, he's been lied to.

suicide is forbidden.
it is the utmost ingratitude to destroy the gift of life that ALLAH has given us.

killing innocents unjustly, also forbidden.

muslims didnt invent guerilla urban warfare (or terrorism).

michael collins, the irish leader actually did at the beginning of this century.

we see the concerted effort and century long investigation into the social and political complaints of the southern catholics on that tiny island, and have only recently begun to see some sort of resolution of those problems.
and religion was just the mnost obvious difference- the real differences were barriers of economics, nationality and language.

(sorry i was gone awhile, i hope this isnt too disjointed)

as muslims, of course the finger of blame and responsibility must always be firmly pointed at ourselves.

this unconditional personal responsibilty is also one of the reasons islam is so true for me.
a BIG reason.

(but when there are so many agressive fingers of blame, accusingly and unreasonably pointed at one, one has a tendency to be a bit defensive)

sometimes, obscuring ones original intention to be self accusatory.

also, many of the accusations are simply false, or based on phobic paranoia.

these can never be addressed to the satisfaction of the accusers.

i dont speak to those peole, but they do, by their vociferous repitition have the effect of fomenting a bit of their paranoia into those who might otherwise be reasonably inclined.

well i think ive really gone on much too long.

i can only speak for myself, so what my co-religionists are doing to promote peace, we shall see on these boards perhaps.

it is not that they are not speaking loudly and strongly against terrorism, they are.

but it is difficult to find a forum that will promote their rational voice.

i guess it doesnt sell papers.

more later insh'alla (if the god wills it)

one more thing, the word islam itslef- means literally "peace".

it is not a religion named after or worshipping any person.

but it is faithful to the god, and peace itself.

so, peace
(norrie ill go read your always reasonable response now)

victoria is right the whole idea of holy war comes form the crusades there is no such concept as holy war in islam the word fundamentalist also comes form the christians either yu belive and follow Islam or you dont nonmuslim have branded islam with certain tags like fundamentalism holy war, whic never existed and are strange to this religion.instead of accusing muslim of not being peace ful western nation should look at the number of muslim dying each day who are also god;s creation killed for no good reason only because they belive in islamic ideology . and fail to conrom to the socila evils existing in todays world which majority have succumbed to . people ask me that extramrital sex is ataboo in islam isnt that strange these are the kind of questions that nonmulsim have started asking muslims the whole idea of differences between good and bad has become very subjective in western culture and society and doing all things which are forbidden is considered OK or the norm of the day . mans behaviour may chnage but laws of nature remains the same and allah sent down the quran to to differentiate between good and evil and establish social justice .and it is evry muslims duty to eradicate evil and it is orgins whther it exist at home or in society through peaceful menas first using the intellect using sound arguments and debates and if everything and if evil still want to reign supreme and impose its behavoir on Islamic world and prcaticing muslims then they have to resort to war and the duty of muslims in tis world to make sure social justice is prevailing and the weak are not devured by the ones who are so called strong in millitary powers.that is the essence of the misunderstood term jihad if muslim fail to do so then they are liable to be punished by god .the whole universe follows aform of social order for many years humans have to also they cannot invent thier own do's and ont's to suit vested intersts of the few elite ruling people in the world

Well – we’re off to quite a start quoting this or that about the Koran, stating what people believe – but little about fact or reality. If On Faith is to contribute anything to the dialogue of what Islam is in the 21st century, what Muslims say they believe is useless. It’s what Muslim do that will define who Muslims are and how non-Muslims see them.

Let’s forget the quotes and the proselytizing and get to the problem at hand. And that is Muslims who intend to re-make non-Muslim societies into what Shariah Law calls for. If you want to have a true discussion of what Muslims want, we must consider what is called Political Islam and these questions should be discussed.

“What should Muslim cabbies in Minnesota be accommodated to if they refuse to carry passengers with Seeing Eye dogs or liquor?”

“Why should Muslim Target check-out clerks be accommodated who refuse to handle pork products?”

“Why should pubic school stop serving pork lunches, install foot bathes, put aside prayer time, etc. etc. that seek to create a Muslim environment at the expense of others?”

There are other examples of political Islam using intimidation (legal jihad) to muscle its way into a non-Muslim culture and attempting to transform that culture into theirs.

Response to these questions should not be accepted if words such as ‘racist’, ‘Islmamophobe’, or ‘bigot’ are attached. Only reasoned responses to the problem posed by the above attempts – and others – to impose Muslim beliefs on non-Muslims.

Case in point. The Amish. You couldn’t get a more anti-21st century culture. They chose to live in a non-industrial, agricultural society removing all traces of technology from their daily lives. But you don’t see them enter New York of any other city of our dominate culture and demand that all cell phones be turned off, all automobiles be removed from their sight, all women be dressed in sack cloth, or all electronic billboards be turned off in Times Square.

Both the Hasidic and Amish cultures can live side by side in our dominant culture and you hear none of the endless complaints you hear from Muslims.

Why can’t Muslims, in the socio-political realm, in the words of Rodney King, “Just get along”?

the only speaking out that is required is to convince the non-islamic world that everything that they feel threataned by is unislamic. this is the strategy, any direct confrontation of the ummah is not to be accepted. instead all undesirable(and this can change regionally) behavior is merely passed off as unislamic, and any challenge to the veracity of any referencing of any third party muslims claim to the contrary should swiftly be denounced through islamophobia, racism, bigotry, possibly mentioning the crusades, or any other words necessary to shame the target into stopping any investigation into the matter.

Bob:

You've forgotten Islam is the religion of peace and once their populations are significant in democratic nations -they can institute sharia law and muslim peace will reign..

Thank you, and thank you again. As a convert to Islam, I am constantly being called upon to explain why terrorists blow themselves up (how in the world would I know, I'm not a terrorist), why I wear the hijab, why I converted, and why I would want to be a Muslim "since everyone knows that Islam treats women like third class people." I am very grateful that finally, mainstream journalism is cooperating with Muslims' request to tell their "side" of what it is to be a Muslim.

sharia law is nothing to be desired. it is a brutal, barbaric backwards legal system designed to reaffirm the supremacy of islam and the inferiority of non-islam. just look at where sharia law is practiced, notably iran and saudi arabia. both countries are the dregs of human rights abuses.

or look at where sharia is gaining influence, like malaysia, as freedom of religion begins to vanish, or pakistan where the hindu minority has been eradicated since pakistan's independance.

sharia law is a plague upon all human liberty.

And that is the real problem.

Do Muslims support Shariah law or not. If individual Muslims do not, then they must explain themselves to the Muslims who do (and as the Hadith calls for) without resorting to disinformation and mis-direction.

The issue of violence in Islam is of prime importance. Just as important, however, is the issue of the foundation of Islam and for that matter the foundations of all contemporay religions.

Here is a synopsis repeated many times but rarely addressed especially by Muslim commentators. Here is your chance once again. A realistic acceptance of the historical foundations of these religions would go a long way in eliminating the violence in each.

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian/Jewish/Pagan sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

Somebody quoted a passage about laws against usury? Now, that's something which puzzles me? Today all the risk is assumed by the lender. True, you can acquire a bad credit record which may affect the next loan. I also realize that the idea of bankruptcy is rather new. So how does a bad loan affect both the parties involved in it one thousand years ago? Was it a concern tha a man's obligation to his family would be undermined if he could not meet his debts?

Another pressing question:

DOES ISLAM TEACH AND ENCOURAGE LYING?

usury:

2:275 Those who swallow usury cannot rise up save as he ariseth whom the devil hath prostrated by (his) touch. That is because they say: Trade is just like usury; whereas Allah permitteth trading and forbiddeth usury. He unto whom an admonition from his Lord cometh, and (he) refraineth (in obedience thereto), he shall keep (the profits of) that which is past, and his affair (henceforth) is with Allah. As for him who returneth (to usury) - Such are rightful owners of the Fire. They will abide therein.

there's probably hadith about it too. it should be noted that you can not have a financial system w/o recognizing the risk of lending or the time value of money. so all this is really just theological masturbation.

I am pleased to see "On Faith" promote a series of discussions and public statements from leaders in the Muslim community. Predictably, there have been and will no doubt be more comments from those who make blanket uninformed statements and stereotypes. Such as ones about Sharia law. In fact, one of the most misunderstood aspects of Islam among non-Muslims is Sharia law and its role in the organic relation between person, community and state. Knut S. Vikor has written an excellent volume on Sharia ("Between God And The Sultan"). Progressive Muslim legal scholars like Khaled Abou El Fadl have also published extensively on Sharia. It would behoove many participants in this thread to educate themselves in preparation for this phase of "On Faith." Looking stupid and historically ill-informed in a discussion with Islamic leaders is not a good way to promote continued dialogue.

progressive sharia is a fantasy. in all accepted schools of sharia law, sharia law is backwards and in gross violation of human rights. in nearly every manifestation in the modern world of sharia law, from the engrossing use of sharia law in iran or saudi arabia, to partial sharia in egypt, malaysia, indonesia, sharia law is used to undermine, and sometimes destroy human freedoms often granted by secular institutions.

a common scene is the fight between a secular guarentee of freedom of religion and a sharia enshrinement as gods law.

any notion that people who see sharia as backwards and against all human liberty to peddle off as ill-informed merely is another way to shut them up. any observer, historical or modern can see sharia has never measured up to any modern human rights based system. over the next century one of the largest human rights battlefiends, infact probably THE largest human rights battlefield will be against sharia, and its varying impositions around the world. think of it like going green for human rights, its the new frontier.

{DuckPhup: "It occurs to me that the Islamic world is about 300 - to - 400 years behind the Western world (excluding Christianity, of course) with regard to the evolution of 'thought'. That means that at the present pace, we should not expect the Islamic world to experience an 'Enlightenment', and an ensuing 'Age of Reason' until about 2300, at the earliest.
I really don't think that we can afford to wait that long."}

In actuality, the civilizations of the West and East seem to have reversed what they were for centuries. While the Western (European) world was still in darkness, poverty and gloom, overshadowed by intolerance and dogma of the Catholic (Roman) Church, Islam encouraged free thought and devloped the foundations of modern science, philosophy, mathematics, sociology, geography, chemistry and meterology. Muslim mathematicians of Kufa in Iraq knew that our planet was a globe six centuries before Columbus 'sailed the ocean blue'. Muslim's were responsible for the decimal and numeric system (and the use of the number zero) that we still use today; scientists used autopsies to understand the internal human and how the body works. Education was (and still is) very important to the Muslim world. The first University of Europe was established by Muslims in Spain. The university professors' formal black gowns originated with the kaftan --- the traditional outer robe worn by Arab men since ancient times. For four centuries (700 - 1100 AD) Arabic (not Latin) was the international language of knowledge. During this Islamic "golden age", many Christians studied Arabic and attended Muslim universities. From the eighth to the tenth centuries, baghdad flourished as the world's most civilized city. It's university was attended by 6,000 students from all over the world and it boasted an endowment equivelent to millions of dollars. Baghdad streets were paved, drained by covered sewers and illuminated, while pigs still roamed the dark and muddy streets of medieval Paris.

I guess because I have a degree in American history, I love to study history. I guess because I am a Muslim, I love to study Islamic history. I guess because I don't like to be ignorant, I love to read the histories of other cultures and nations and worlds. I don't think I could expect the average non-Muslim American to know about someone elses history when they barely know their own. Therefore, 'DuckPhup', I don't fault you for your comments.

{DuckPhup: "It occurs to me that the Islamic world is about 300 - to - 400 years behind the Western world (excluding Christianity, of course) with regard to the evolution of 'thought'. That means that at the present pace, we should not expect the Islamic world to experience an 'Enlightenment', and an ensuing 'Age of Reason' until about 2300, at the earliest.
I really don't think that we can afford to wait that long."}

In actuality, the civilizations of the West and East seem to have reversed what they were for centuries. While the Western (European) world was still in darkness, poverty and gloom, overshadowed by intolerance and dogma of the Catholic (Roman) Church, Islam encouraged free thought and devloped the foundations of modern science, philosophy, mathematics, sociology, geography, chemistry and meterology. Muslim mathematicians of Kufa in Iraq knew that our planet was a globe six centuries before Columbus 'sailed the ocean blue'. Muslim's were responsible for the decimal and numeric system (and the use of the number zero) that we still use today; scientists used autopsies to understand the internal human and how the body works. Education was (and still is) very important to the Muslim world. The first University of Europe was established by Muslims in Spain. The university professors' formal black gowns originated with the kaftan --- the traditional outer robe worn by Arab men since ancient times. For four centuries (700 - 1100 AD) Arabic (not Latin) was the international language of knowledge. During this Islamic "golden age", many Christians studied Arabic and attended Muslim universities. From the eighth to the tenth centuries, baghdad flourished as the world's most civilized city. It's university was attended by 6,000 students from all over the world and it boasted an endowment equivelent to millions of dollars. Baghdad streets were paved, drained by covered sewers and illuminated, while pigs still roamed the dark and muddy streets of medieval Paris.

I guess because I have a degree in American history, I love to study history. I guess because I am a Muslim, I love to study Islamic history. I guess because I don't like to be ignorant, I love to read the histories of other cultures and nations and worlds. I don't think I could expect the average non-Muslim American to know about someone elses history when they barely know their own. Therefore, 'DuckPhup', I don't fault you for your comments.

perhaps sherry is so interested in other ppl's cultures she forgot to mention that hindu's invented the number zero, not muslims(mayans invented it too).

or perhaps that the circumference of the earth was first calculated by greeks.

"Using elegant mathematical reasoning and limited empirical measurement, in approximately 240 B.C., Eratosthenes of Cyrene (in current-day Libya) made an accurate measurement of the circumference of Earth."

I usually don't bother w/ any one culture's hero stories about how they are so awesome. but muslims are getting a little carried away with the things they like to claim credit for.

"Insistence on Sharia, a worldwide phenomenon, makes Muslim community troublesome and where they are in majority, they are tyrants."

Truth is refreshing to the soul.

Good initiative Meacham and Quinn.

"Muslims Speaks Out" is the one I will now be reading in WaPo's On Faith blog, but will not be commenting on what the guest writers stated and on what readers wrote in response to the essays, or to one another.

Thank you.

Missus Quinn: Why does the Post offer readers no means to reply to Georgetown's DiGiola's essay (this web site) on how faith can ease international relations? This is anomalous. All other essays are up for comment. One would have to say that the Pope, by emphasizing the claimed exclusivity and sole-salvationist side of Catholicism, and smearing Islam by quoting a centuries-gone Byzantine, is not doing his part to ease international and intercommunal tensions. Wouldn't you say? Shielding the Georgetown U. essayist isn't kosher. Wouldn't you say?

I just have two remarks, and would invite a response should anybody wish to provide one. Thoughtful Muslims are especially welcome.

1. As an atheist, I am both comforted and fatigued by moderate religious individuals who state that other, more extreme individuals are misrepresenting their faith, and that extreme beliefs and conduct are unrelated to the true religion. My beef with religion is that, by founding itself upon the incontrovertibly divine status of certain books (Koran, OT, NT) or people (JC), it makes itself inherently susceptible to beliefs which are absolutist and not amenable to reason.

I know those who are moderate emphasise the ambiguous, doubtful, aspect of faith. But doubt is always playing against, interacting with the background of beliefs which are inherently stubborn in nature. Hence (inter alia) the unshakeable conviction of some of those who claim the Koran to be the final, perfect revelation of God. What authority can temporal government, or science, have against this?

2. Islam and politics. I think it is indisputable that Islam is currently a more political religion than, for example, Christianity or Judaism. But would any Muslim contributors to the thread disagree with the proposition that Islam is actually inherently more political than other religions?

I suggest this on the basis of, inter alia: the importance to Muslims of the example of Mohammed's own polities; the extraordinary success of Islam in spreading in its early years, as a kind of unified empire; the ensuing concept of the caliphate; the concept of the ummah; the extensive body of sharia law; the high degree of specificity of rules of conduct Muslims often seek from religious rulings.

Thank you.

Jihadist,

While taking a break you might want to check out the writing of Mustafa Akyol who "is a political scientist, columnist, writer and a director at the Intercultural Dialogue Platform, based in Istanbul, Turkey." http://www.thewhitepath.com/

Also, if you have a philosphy mind and want to delve into nihilsm, transcendence and realpolitik you can try Pervez Mansour who I believe lives in Sweeden. I like what he has to say but I have to consentrate more when reading his material.
http://www.algonet.se/~pmanzoor/Index1.html

The deception that Muslims wish to practice has been undone. There are too many people, like myself, who will never never never never never never never be deceived again by those who pretend that Islam is a religion of peace.

Wait till an American Beslan happens and see how the mealy mouthed platitudes of mutual respect sound.

I grately appreciate this effort and this website. Lately, I have been questioned again and again-- whether by friends or by brief acquaintances--of why my faith is not speaking. We do not have a hierarchal system (no pope, no designated leadership) which makes it more difficult to say condemn those who have manipulated the religion for their personal political means. Along with this, the media has concentrated on the most controversial of our people and where the greatest sparks fly.

I hope this website is read--not just by non-muslims but muslims as well. The former: thank you for reading and being open. The latter: learn your faith so that you can answer the questions as they come.

Islam is changing the face of Europe and desires to change the world, by the word, by the sword,or by the bomb. I think it will succeed and we should just get used to it.
I dumped my bible for a koran,to be on the winning side.Now that I'm no longer an infidel no need to blow me up.I surrender.

It is apparent that the commenting Muslims are not going to address the historic problems with their religion i.e. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics.

Apparently these commenting Muslims are also afraid of Islamic reprisals since they never give any suggestions for changes to the Koran. So let us start the process for them.

Part 1 of the "cleansing".

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)

"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

And I just love being in a country where I can list these important items for world peace without the fear of Islamic death squads.

To put it bluntly, the last 100 years history of Western interference in the Middle East leaves a lot to be desired. I do not have to list such interference: from Portuguese to Italian to French to British and now American. Do a google.

So, the re-action of certain Islamic quarters is normal and actually political and not religious as such. It is just in Islam there is no division between politics/government and religion.

Now if armies and foreign governments were to set up shops in America: How would you re-act? If millions of foreign nationals were to be shipped and housed amongst your midst and then forced you to evacuate your homes and turned you into refugees with no right of return or compensation: How would you re-act? If such armies then started forcefully to intimidate you and use brute force to put down any resistance to their construction and stealing of your lands: How would you re-act? If this thing continued for over 50 years with no recourse to justice: How would you re-act. And if all this was done in the name of religion with total support of superpowers: How would you feel?

Let me guess: Some elements within your society will take up arms and fight the invaders given that they have no right of recourse to justice and no compensation. There would be no hope and desperation will lead to some committing acts of extreme violence. This would apply to any human. It has nothing to do with religion. Such people use anything to fight back. Consider this: Israel has th ebest of WMD including nukes yet Palestinians are not allowed any form of arms to protect themselves. And besides they are made to look as the perpetrators and not the victims. Chew that!

Also consider this: Muslim casualties have always been far greater than Western casualties. Take a look at Israeli v. Palestinian deaths or house demolishins. http://ifamericansonlyknew.com/ Or Iraqi deaths v. American deaths http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ . Afghani deaths v. UK/US deaths. Even Chechen deaths v. Soviet deaths.

Then Bush/Blair play the Jackal and Hyde. Hollier than though who speaks for justice, freedom, democracy but actually pay scant regard to life if it belongs to a Muslim. We get to hear the names of all your captives and casualties but none of your news media tries to find out the truth about any incident let alone find out how many died or who the casualties were? Then you come and blame it on Islam and terrorists. Was 'Shock and Awe" an act of terror? Was forcing more than 750,000 Palestinian refugees in the 1940's an act of terror? Is 'bunker-busting' Afghani villages an act of terror?

Ask the relatives of the dead victims.

Here is a proposal for a lasting peace and you have no need to pander to Islamic 'moderates'. I list my recommended actions in full knowledge that you can influence your governments being both media people and living in a democratic country. Though I have my doubts about the latter. Still here it is for what its worth:

1. Tell your governments to stop interfering in other countries especially in Muslim countries.

2. Ask them not to support self appointed rulers and stop electing stooges to run our countries just because you need oil. We have to sell it. We can't drink it!

3. During UN sessions avoid making contacts with those who abuse their own people. Pass a resolution to promote Human Rights as a benchmark for good behavior. Apply it to ALL countries including yourselves.

4. Open a court of justice whereby ordinary citizens can bring their cases against their own governments or any other government for injustices done to them. Empower the victims to use this system. Make it fully transparent. Allocate funds. No politics.

5. Force Israel to adhere to all current UN resolutions. (this will bring you many browni points coz Muslims see you only forcing UN resolutions against Muslim countries but not Israel). Compensate Palestinians for their losses and truly aim for either one country or two but do it justly and forcefully. After all it was your doing in the first place. So undo it. Balfour Promise rings a bell?

6. Pack up all your military camps and ship them back to Florida or wherever! Then wait for 5 years after which you can start a dialogue to establish universities, hospitals and factories in ME. Then send us your educators, doctors and men of knowledge.

7. Open your universities for our kids and do not be swayed by the acts of few fanatics but fully declare your revised policies of a just and lasting peace for ME. Do not retaliate with WMD. Use the same courts of law to bring any such criminals to justice. Make it transparent so we can all see justice being done.

8. Empower all ME countries to use voting system to choose their representatives. promote this through seminars, TV, Newsmedia, schools, etc. Leave religion out of it totally. Use no force to do so.

9. Use the money saved from military to promote education and human rights. Use this money to promote life and not killing. Use it to promote education, agriculture, economy, etc. and to plant seeds of trust and friendship.

10. When it comes to religion promote all that binds us together. Our common beliefs that bring us together in peace and love. Avoid harking on stuff that divides us. We do have a lot in common. use it.

It is necessary to do all above for the masses have lost faith in Western interference. They judge it by the events of the last 50 years. They have sharp memories because the scars are visible even today - Palestinian villages erased still exist in memory. Take a look in Palestine, Iraq, Saudi, Afghanistan, and soon to come Iran - not to mention Mossadegh.

The masses need re-assurance. I do not need any of that. I consider you as a friend anyway for I know that peace comes from the heart and I have it in me. It is not outside.

And should you care to know more about Islam then read the Quran but only with an open heart and mind. I am the first to acknowledge that many Muslims do not follow their own religion. They use it to promote their political actions. Remove politics out of any peace proposal. Come clean with an open heart and open arm and you find us ready to embrace you. Come with bombs and guns and many will fight you till the end.

That is human with animal reaction and it is normal. After all look what you did to us after 911, so what we do to you is also the result of what went earlier over the last 50 years.

What I would like to say to my fellow Muslims here is to: Elevate yourselves to the true human that you are meant to be. Leave the animal feelings behind and join the power of God's love which is Eternal.

Let there BE peace.

Salam alaikum. Take note of a religion whose greeting begins with 'peace'. it is no different to those Christians who truly follow Christ's footstep nor those Jews who believe in the actions of Moses. We are ALL ONE. There IS only ONE.

how about this for the middle east.

allow full and total freedom of religion, including but not limited to the building of churches or other non-islamic places of worship in the ENTIRE middle east. the proselytizing of any religion, the legtimization of apostasy. free movement of ppl's of all religions, including the current BAN on non-muslims entering mecca or medina.

allow full and total freedom of speech, including dissent from all forms of gov't and all forms of ideology, including sharia law and islam. unban the THOUSANDS of books u currently have banned. legalize all satire, criticism and other free speech expressions.

this is of course just a start, and these are only the two most basic freedoms. which islam by the way is in GROSS VIOLATION of.

also help if u stopped killing the gays, but hey why get ahead of ourselves here. a little civilizing at a time for islam. too big a gulp might make them think they were backwards to begin w/.

Prayer for tomorrow:

If it be Your will
If there is a choice
Let the rivers fill
Let the hills rejoice
Let Your mercy spill
On all these burning hearts in hell
If it be Your will
To make us well

And draw us near
Oh bind us tight
All Your children here
In their rags of light
In our rags of light
All dressed to kill
And end this night
If it be Your will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MDlMdu2gjw

There are those who portray islam as some misunderstood, peaceful, loving religion. I simply see it as a cult, with some very lost individuals.

The Koran says that jews come from monkeys.

The Koran says that it is acceptable to lie.

The Koran says that it is acceptable to kill.

The Koran says that a woman's testimony is NOT equal to that of a man's testimony.

The Koran says that any "nonbeliever" is an
Infidel.

The koran says that there will be more women in hell than men.

The Koran says that men will receive virgins as a reward in paradise.

Those are the facts as stated in the koran. I did not make it up. You can not reason with people who refuse to tell the truth or are not transparent in their communication. And Muslims will certainly not be truthful about of all things their religion. So, please stop it with all of the comparisons to Christianity and Judaism. These "religions" share nothing in common with islam. Not now, and not 400 years ago, not ever.

Because I am a Muslim who is humble enough not to tout the merits of his religion and to conform to 'political coorectness', I have always spoken of the teachings of non-violence as used by Mahatma Gandhi during India's independence struggle. I now need to make a crucial point, well-known to Muslim South Africans such as Ahmad Kathrada and countless others and confirmed by Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu. This is that, the 'non-violence' taught by Gandhi was a strategy he learnt and adopted in South Africa early in the 20th cebtury when that country's Gujrati Muslims had made him come to that unfortunate apartheid land of the time as their lawyer to fight the pass laws. The Africans also had their version of non-violence -- 'ubuntu'.
The Muslims of South Africa had learnt from the ahaadith the story of how the first Caliph Umar (p.b.u.h), caught in mortal combat with a ruthless enemy who was determined to kill him, had managed to reverse the overpowering onslaughts of his rival and pinned him to the ground. He was about to give him the fatal blow when the rival spit in his face. Thereupon he spared him! Astounded, the rival cried out: "Why? If it had been me, I would have given you a more savage blow". "Precisely", replied Umar, "Go! I will not allow anger to dictate my action. You are defeated and can no longer hurt me". Some time later, the opponent embraced Islam.
My Hindu and or Mughal ancestors also embraced Islam for the same reason -- the carnal feelings and emotions of this world are as real as the spirituality of the 'hereafter' (however understood), although that 'hereafter' (maybe 'survival of the human specie'?) is eternal and therefore should be valued more.
"Violence" in the sense of proportionate self-defense or the defense of the defenseless against oppression is both necessary and desirable. "Violence" for conquest, for venal gain, for vengenace is most strongly prohibited.
Gandhi learnt that from the South African Muslims and refined the strategy in the light of British military superiority confronted against Indian numerical superiority into 'non-violent resistence'.
But the most exquisite instance of the Islamic conception of coexistence is given in the story of the believer who was given the opportunity to visit both hell and heaven. When he was showed a vision of hell, he found numerous men and women with their arms held outstretched by iron bars with cuffs clasping their arms at the level of the shoulders and the wrists. In their hands were delicious plates of the most exquisite food and drink which they vainlt tried to bering up to their starving mouths. The eternal agony was their hell. In heaven the same scene, except that the men and women were merrily feeding each other with their outstretched arms!
It was essentially this same Muslim but also universal human wisdom that the physicist Freeman Dyson was referring to in his 2001 Templeton Lecture when he pleaded with the Bush administration not to go to war but rather channel funds into scientific research, in particular into cutting edge materials (the book "Hacking Matter" refers).
We are now where we are, but it is never too late for Muslims and non-Muslims to get smart and thinnk of the 'hereafter' -- the surviaval of the human specie.

I think the most important reason this matters is to get people into Heaven. I recently read the Koran for the 3rd time, this time in order to write:

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO MOHAMMED

Islam means “Submission to God”, as God has told us, “The Lord lifts up the humble; he casts the wicked to the ground. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”

So the Muslim (meaning "Bows to God’s Will") will indeed go to Heaven, as long as he submits to God’s will.

One verse that jumps instantly to mind is, “God is not willing that any should perish,” God’s will includes demonstrating His righteousness, having upright followers, and that justice be done; but the most important from our earthly standpoint is that God wills that wrongdoers be rectified to Him, “that all should come to repentance."

Islam is in majority alignment with the Biblical understanding of Heaven and Hell; I think this is illustrated nicely in Surah 43 (Adornments), verses 70-77. Heaven is nice, and Hell is hot and eternal.

Where Christianity and Islam divide is how to get to Heaven; but how to get to Hell is the same in both religions.

Surah 43:74 tells us that “Sinners will be in the punishment of Hell, to dwell there forever.”

Surah 83 speaks of our conscience, the Sijjin, a register fully inscribed that will be open on the Day of Judgment; woe to the sinner, his conscience records his wrongdoings.

God knows the secret thought life, and has appointed a Judgment Day for all mankind. The Koran accepts Moses as a prophet and the Law of the 10 Commandments which were given to him. “God gave Moses the Scripture and the criteria between right and wrong.” – Al-Baqara 2:53

If all sinners will have their punishment in Hell, it’s in our best interest to find out if we’re sinners.

Answer these questions truthfully and you’ll know:

Have you ever told a lie? What does that make you?
If I rape one girl, I’m a rapist, if I murder one person, I’m a murderer. A single lie makes me a liar. The Koran says to, “Invoke the curse of God on those who lie!”
– Al-Imran 3:61
The Bible promises that all liars will have their place in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

Have you ever stolen anything? What does that make you?
Both the Koran and Bible have very strict punishments for thieves. Maida 5:38 tells us, “As to the thief, cut off his or her hand(s).”

Have you alwyas kept the Sabbath?
The Koran demands that you remember God on Friday, leaving off business and travel.
– Assembly 62:9
Whosoever does any work on the Sabbath, he will surely be put to death. This is in order to make sure you worship the Creator above creation.

Have you ever worshipped money, power, science, or possessions above God?
“Let not your riches or your children divert you from the remembrance of God. If any act thus, the loss is their own.”
– Hypocrites 63:9
This you know, no idolater will see the kingdom of God.

Have you committed adultery?
The prophet Jesus said, “Whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart.”
The Koran is clear, “Do not come near to adultery: for it is a shameful deed and an evil, opening the road to other evils.”
– Israelites 17:32
Clearly “coming near to adultery” is the same as Jesus taught, that a lust-filled glance is seen by God as shameful. Take note that the word for adultery in Arabic is sometimes translated as “Fornication”, sex outside of marriage.

Have you ever used the name of God in Vain?
“Those before them also devised many a blasphemy, but God took their structures from their foundations, and the wrath befell them without them perceiving from whence it came.”
– Bee 16:26
God will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain.

If you’re like me, you’ve broken every one of these, and these are only six of the 10 Commandments. The Bible says that we have stored up wrath for ourselves on the Day of Judgment. The Koran is nearly identical, “On the day when heat will be produced out of the fire of Hell, and it will brand your forehead, your flanks, and your back, “This is the treasure which you stored for yourselves: you then taste the treasure you amassed!” – Immunity 9:35

There is a minor difference in the Hell of the Bible and the Hell of the Koran. In the Bible it says that we will beg for a drop of water, but none will come. The Koran says that we will have an overabundance of water, albeit it will be superheated past boiling and we will be forced to drink it, and it will wreak havoc on our insides. Either way, Hell is not somewhere I want to go, nor do I want you to go there.

There is a way to be saved from this punishment we have earned, it is the Injeel which according to the Koran was given to the prophet Jesus. Injeel means, “Good News”, and avoiding such a terrible place as Hell is definitely good news.

Some think that the good news is that we can work our way out of Hell. Both the