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If this article was suppost to make me understand islam more (notice no capital letter) and appreciate it, it definately did not work. Before I read this article I really did not have an opinion on islam and I did not really care, but now that I was informed about the core of it's beliefs, I Hate the religion. islam is the disease to life. It goes against all the laws of the universe. When a woman with an unborn child in her stomack can strap a bomb to her belly and blow the two of them up, there is no rationale in this. The Koran should be burnt so that a hundred years from now the minds of people will not be tainted by its extreme evil. islam is the devil I am so mad right now after I read this article I want to join the marines and kill all of them.

If this article was suppost to make me understand islam more (notice no capital letter) and appreciate it, it definately did not work. Before I read this article I really did not have an opinion on islam and I did not really care, but now that I was informed about the core of it's beliefs, I Hate the religion. islam is the disease to life. It goes against all the laws of the universe. When a woman with an unborn child in her stomack can strap a bomb to her belly and blow the two of them up, there is no rationale in this. The Koran should be burnt so that a hundred years from now the minds of people will not be tainted by its extreme evil. islam is the devil I am so mad right now after I read this article I want to join the marines and kill all of them.

If this article was suppost to make me understand islam more (notice no capital letter) and appreciate it, it definately did not work. Before I read this article I really did not have an opinion on islam and I did not really care, but now that I was informed about the core of it's beliefs, I Hate the religion. islam is the disease to life. It goes against all the laws of the universe. When a woman with an unborn child in her stomack can strap a bomb to her belly and blow the two of them up, there is no rationale in this. The Koran should be burnt so that a hundred years from now the minds of people will not be tainted by its extreme evil. islam is the devil I am so mad right now after I read this article I want to join the marines and kill all of them.

If this article was suppost to make me understand islam more (notice no capital letter) and appreciate it, it definately did not work. Before I read this article I really did not have an opinion on islam and I did not really care, but now that I was informed about the core of it's beliefs, I Hate the religion. islam is the disease to life. It goes against all the laws of the universe. When a woman with an unborn child in her stomack can strap a bomb to her belly and blow the two of them up, there is no rationale in this. The Koran should be burnt so that a hundred years from now the minds of people will not be tainted by its extreme evil. islam is the devil I am so mad right now after I read this article I want to join the marines and kill all of them.

Molly McDonald

I hope you have the opportunity to listen/talk to Tariq, but unfortunately he is not allowed to travel in the US. I am afraid for my country because of the crimes it has visited on others.

This 'literalism' prevalent in all the militant strains of Islam should be contrasted with actual conservatism. Conservatism is not a big deal, but literalism is.

Conservatism has been around as a spot on the political spectrum since the origin of Islam. Literalism is a relatively new thing, the gift of Western enlightenment to the Islamic world starting from the 18th century onwards (in India and North Africa, and in the former Ottoman Empire post-WW1).

Islam placed a near sacred status on knowledge and scholarship of all kinds. The Western way of thinking however takes that apart with the intention of taking knowledge, scholarship, and thinking out of the hands of an elite few. A problem which, for the most part, did not exist in Islamic civilization.

This meant instead of a thousand year+ tradition of intense thought and analysis on every aspect of Islam; law, spirituality, and everything inbetween. Where every verse of the Qur'an and every Hadith was meticulously researched, placed in context, and precedent of interpretation was established by successive rulers... the mixing of the Western principles with Islamic resulted in any old Joe Wahabi (not accredited in any sort of proper Islamic scholarship, but maybe having a Western education) being able to write a book with their 'opinions' and having it treated as gospel based upon the prevailing political sentiment of the time. And what do most amateur thinkers do? That's right, they literally interpret what they read or interpret in the context of the (often backward) culture in which they've been raised.

This explains Wahabism, Salafism, and modern Jihadism (the Muslim Brotherhood-inspired kind such as Al-Qaeda).

But don't these Islamic madrassas (the only place left for 'Islamic' learning?) teach hate? Do they? Have the graduate-level alumni of any madrassa (muftis) ever been in any trouble with the law or extremism? It's astonishing how most people don't know the difference between a Molvi, Maulana, or anything else. The madrassa system has been abused by a government and society in Pakistan where education through other avenues is often left behind. All the folks that wind up in the Taliban never make it past a year or two in these places before they're recruited. That isn't enough to learn much of anything. Yet the Taliban don't have any formal endorsement of jihad by Muslim Muftis. In fact, all the Sunni Muftis in Pakistan tend to serve as advisors and liasons between the government and the other more hardened (read: less educated) fundamentalists, often trying to mediate in disputes. These people wield little political influence, because the average populace is in a Western political system where they care about people with opinions, not facts. Where they care about who they can identify with (and who can identify with someone who has sacrificed a good decade of their life in order to pursue 'Islamic' scholarship of all things?), who can charm them.

Western civilization is what makes violent revolution and widespread rebellion effective. The last Sunni Islamic government (the Ottoman Empire) had completely 'sold out' to the victorious Allies after World War 1 and was about to sell out the rest of the Turks' land (what we now know as Turkey). Who stopped that? Ataturk and the Young Turks, completely opposed to the old Islamic establishment and inspired by Western models of civilization and government.

Osama Bin Laden has no real accreditation as an Islamic scholar of any kind, much less one who can issue fatwas (a Mufti or Ayatollah). The same goes for the rest of the Al-Qaeda leadership. The Taliban, when not at war, listen to the prevailing Sunni establishment of scholars in South Asia. Sayyid Qutb, the man whose work inspired most extremists, had a Western education, not an Islamic one. The only extremist of the 20th century with a COMPLETE Islamic education was the Ayatollah of Iran. And that is Shi'a Islam (never percieved quite as peaceful as mainstream Sunni/orthodoxy). And Iran is a functioning Shi'ite religious state. Aside from being attacked by the West through proxy (Iran-Iraq war) and attacking back through proxy (support of terrorists... a bad thing to be sure, but no different than the United States' own policies throughout the century), what real trouble has Iran caused? Iran has never been in a war with Israel, but the Western-thinking Sunni nations with monarchies (Islam does not allow for a monarchy to be a representation of it as a form of government) or military establishments have tried to annihilate Israel in 3 wars already. And even now the prospect of a Sunni version of this 'Islamofascist' kind of state scares people. Why? Because Sunni Islam's establishment has more openly embraced Western civilization and that is where all the psychotic fundamentalists and extremists now sit (why isn't there a Shi'ite Al-Qaeda?). What I'm trying to say is that's no coincidence. Take power away from the Ayatollahs in Iran and give it to the people and most of them won't care, but the extremist minority no longer knows its own doctrine and will behave erratically and dangerously. You will then have Shi'ite terrorists proper. That is what happened in Sunni Islam (90% of Islam's billion+ membership).

That is the problem when you mix civilizations. And to try and fix the issue by saying Western-style democracy (not just democracy) is going to fix the issue is only going to deepen the divide because then that DOES become a conflict of civilizations. It's the reason that when you queue up in a line at a store in North America, everyone stays in line. When you stand in line in the middle east, everyone's cutting each other off and behaving generally lawlessly. They have no faith, no connection to the state or system in which they live. Yet they all stand neatly in lines when it is time for prayer. Instead of letting and helping Islam evolve as a force for proper political and socio-economic order, the West has not really changed their policy towards 'disabling' it and viewing it as an alien bygone religion since they colonized and conquered the Muslim world centuries ago. "The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion, but by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do." - Samuel Huntington.

We've learned to accept Communism, Shi'a Islam, Socialism, Catholocism, dictatorships and monarchies (these last two being the worst kind) as valid forms of government and civilization. But we're in an intense struggle to prevent the same for Sunni Islam. We'd certainly be happier if Shi'a Islam wasn't on that list, but we let it go in favor of keeping an eye on the majority of the Muslim world. Why? There has been no evidence to suggest the Muslim world would have been any worse off than it currently is had it been a Sunni version of Iran. Although it might have been more united and perhaps less willing to give us their oil and free markets and... oh wait... I guess that is reason enough, isn't it?

---

CLIFF'S NOTES:

There are different kinds of Muslims.

Apathetic (90+%)
Westernized (a.k.a. the extremists and the terrorists liberated by Western modes of thought applied to their religion and scripture)
Islamic (silent minority in the Sunni world, ignored by the Apathetic and Westernized. However, in power in Shi'ite Iran)

The latter two actually play well with each other though the traditionally Islamic dislike the extremist misinterpretations of doctrine such as Jihad from the Westernized but put up with it being the minority. The Westernized acknowledge they aren't the real stewards of Islam (they, such as Osama, are political Muslims, not religious) and pay lip service to the Islamic.

I find it fascinating that the the three religions which had their origin in the middle east, Judaism, Christianity and Islam all worship cruel god. The Old Testament god creats man to be a dumb beast and when curiosity comes into play punishes his creation forever. Then eventually he becomes so upset he wipes them all out with the exception of Noah. Then according to Karen Armstrong the Isralites kill about two million people in his name. Then along comes Christianity which condems all non believer to eternal damnation. Followed by Islam where god is intent on punishing the infedel. To verify this aspect of Islam one only has to read the first fourteen pages of the Koran. If a human had committed all the attrocities attributed to god they would be called monsters and rightly so. Yet all three religions worship this monster. N

"Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half." (Koran 4:11) The Koran is the word of God, and lack of equality is embedded in it (in this case, in inheritance, but there's plenty of other examples). How can Mr. Ramadan claim that there's any room for interpretation there? He knows that you can't explain away any inequivocal Islamic text. Nawal al-Saadawi and Ayaan Hirshi have got it right.

I AM SURPRISED THAT MUSLIM SCHOLARS ARE CONTINUOUSLY DEFENSIVE ABOUT JIHAD, WHILE NOT AVAILING THE OPPORTUNITY TO SHIFT THE FOCUS TO THE WESTERN JEHAD (THEIR PREFERRED MEANING) AGAINST ARAB AND MUSLIM WORLD.

Ghulam Muhammed, Mumbai

i really enjoyed reading your article. very informative for a non-muslim to get a glimps of the basics of islam.

Franky:
I told you to read commentary not write..

I will only comment on what you wrote and not what you copy-paste.

Quran is infallible and last revelation from God. You/me like it or not.

In an ideal Islamic country you can question Quran and can have debate but you can not insult it. I don't see anything wrong with this, though from western perspective it is infringement on his personal freedom to insult anything he likes.

From Islamic theological perspective, if a person come to know about Islam, he should accept it but if he refuse then he is answerable to God.

Last thing.. God is just, so don't worry about you or any one going to hell with out getting chase to present his/her case in front of Him.

And for each of us there will be test.. justice will be done, so relax franky.

Franky:
I told you to read commentary not write..

I will only comment on what you wrote and not what you copy-paste.

Quran is infallible and last revelation from God. You/me like it or not.

In an ideal Islamic country you can question Quran and can have debate but you can not insult it. I don't see anything wrong with this, though from western perspective it is infringement on his personal freedom to insult anything he likes.

From Islamic theological perspective, if a person come to know about Islam, he should accept it but if he refuse then he is answerable to God.

Last thing.. God is just, so don't worry about you or any one going to hell with out getting chase to present his/her case in front of Him.

And for each of us there will be test.. justice will be done, so relax franky.

Matt Helm:
I agree you should not find out and don't listen to any Muslims. If I were you I would do the same.

Anyway here are more excuses from Muslim:

5. Read prolifically and not dogmatically.
6. Question everything you read.
7. Have humility when you approach divine message.
8. It is possible that you will see in the Quran what is in your heart. When you see hatret in the Quran, it is possible you brought hatred with you or if you see evil in it, you have evil in you. And when you see beauty in it, you had it from begining. And when you see truth in it, acknowledge it atleast.
9. Question your fears and understand how fear blinds us from understanding others.
10. Last but not least don't be arrogant.

Well, you can add these to list of excuses if you wish.

"The Washington Post and Newsweek are pulling out all the stops in their promotion of radical Islamists as “moderates.” Today we get another round of misdirection from the Muslim Brotherhood’s slickest Islamist spokesman, Tariq Ramadan, billed as a “European intellectual”—who’s banned from entering the United States (a fact the Post somehow fails to mention), but still gets a venue for his propaganda at one of America’s largest newspapers."

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=26398_Tariq_Ramadan_at_the_Washington_Post&only

"The Washington Post and Newsweek are pulling out all the stops in their promotion of radical Islamists as “moderates.” Today we get another round of misdirection from the Muslim Brotherhood’s slickest Islamist spokesman, Tariq Ramadan, billed as a “European intellectual”—who’s banned from entering the United States (a fact the Post somehow fails to mention), but still gets a venue for his propaganda at one of America’s largest newspapers."

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=26398_Tariq_Ramadan_at_the_Washington_Post&only

UNITED STATES LAND TOO BIG FOR AMERICANS..AMERICANS MUST TO LEAVE HALF OF THIS LAND FOR MUSLIM PEOPLES...)))

No doubt you do, British Muslim, you and the 2,000 other suspects in England who are "sympathetic" to imposing your belief systems in a violent way by loading up cars with gas cannisters filled with nails outside of nightclubs in London. Not to mention your so-called "moderate" mosques where you CONTINUE to spread hate-filled invective against the West in general and seditious acts against your own government and country in particular.

And we know you find LOTS of inspiration in Ramadan's "parsing" of the Qur'an to justify whatever evil or unjust actions you want to justify- but as Victoria above says "he speaks seamlessly and coherently"

Yeah. That's the ticket, see? You look good, and you speak seamlessly-just look how many sheep will fall in line behind THAT.

I saw some people comment about disparity in Islam. Universally, any law or jurisdictions are context and event driven, ie, 'Jihad' itself has many meaning depending how, where and when it's being applied!

Even in Quran, God himself insisted to tread the Quranic law carefully; so, misguidance can be avoided.

Tariq's explanation is definitely very articulate and excellent.

Tariq:

Another excellent article. The word Jihad came much before (25:52) as you claimed above. It came in different contexts as you stated, but It's mainly associated with ( qital ) or slaying in the way of God. Jihad or fighting comes in surat El Baqara early on:

Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and God knows, while you do not know.

002.217

As a British Muslum, I welcome the great efforts of Mr. Tariq ramadan.

< ?: + )/ Hello World!

CHRIS

this is not a thesis for a grade, its a debate and unfortunately you cannot link to every site you use because if you do you are limited to only 2 links.
here are some sources
well i tried to post even more with sources but cant -
but lying is still part of islam.
google Abdullah Al Araby

Are the liberal democracies supposed to bend over backwards to accomomdate this incredibly rigid religion?
Perhap Tarig should first explain his points to his fellow muslims and then explain with equal academic thoroughness the virtues of the West's qualities.

MOHO

ok you tell us in what context this is ever acceptable:

To Muslims the Koran is the very word of God, who spoke through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad: "This book is not to be doubted," the Koran declares unequivocally at its beginning. Scholars and writers in Islamic countries who have ignored that warning have sometimes found themselves the target of death threats and violence, sending a chill through universities around the world.
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and practice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."

why dont we pretend that we have never read the koran, never read the hsotory of islam and their conquests and go ahead and believe this guy.
then we can just sit back and wait for them to kill us, as that is what will happen.

This article is ideological jihad.

War is deception.

Bin Laden and Ramadan are all fighting for the same cause.

To spread Islam.

Don't fooled by anything this man says. He's dangerous.

If you want a real dialouge you should debate intellectually with the people who adocate political Islam:

http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/resources/htb-publications/report-radicalisation-extremism--islamism---realities-and-myths-in-the-war-on-terror.html

Ahhh, Victoria you definitely are a Buddhist at heart!!!!

hi

"although i notice no one has refuted the actual statements made by brother ramadan..."

YeAH, see, Victoria, that's PRECISELY the problem -he's into "refuting," and you're into getting people to "refute" what he is refuting-and that's all nothing but BS

Listen to your brother WIQAS M. TAHIR, above. He's very rational, in addition to being intelligent-I'll take his word over Tariq Ramadan's ANY DAY.

"although i notice no one has refuted the actual statements made by brother ramadan..."

YeAH, see, Victoria, that's PRECISELY the problem -he's into "refuting," and you're into getting people to "refute" what he is refuting-and that's all nothing but BS

Listen to your brother WIQAS M. TAHIR, above. He's very rational, in addition to being intelligent-I'll take his word over Tariq Ramadan's ANY DAY.

"although i notice no one has refuted the actual statements made by brother ramadan..."

YeAH, see, Victoria, that's PRECISELY the problem -he's into "refuting," and you're into getting people to "refute" what he is refuting-and that's all nothing but BS

Listen to your brother WIQAS M. TAHIR, above. He's very rational, in addition to being intelligent-I'll take his word over Tariq Ramadan's ANY DAY.

a salaamu alikum mohammed-

joe- you seem to be upset that there arent any prominent muslim mathemeticians-

just do a google friend.
seriously-

andrew- you have raised an excellent point-
it is one of the weaknesses but also one of the strengths of islam.

personally i consider it a wise and farseeing strength and here is why-

you compalin that muslims dont agree with each other on some points-

welcome to intellectual stimulation!

yes, thats it exactly!

name a religion with no hiearchy (i always spell that worng i know) no popes or bosses-

in other words, every muslim is completely equal to every other one!

we are not all given equal gifts of intellectual prowess or powers of persuasion- some have charm and glide on that alone-

but in the court of public opinion in islam, it is the one who speaks with the most sense- whose reasoning aligns seamlessly with our qu'ran that is listened to- and then - if one disagrees, they can research themselves and interpret and bounce it off each other-

even when something becomes ossified into dogma over a long time, some upstart comes along with a big heart and brain and gets it back on track-

the thing you complain about is the exact thing that forces islam to be egalitarian- to respect new voices- and to stay fresh and contemporaneous throughout its long history.

we can be as different as george and hillary are- but when we pray- we are united in that one aspect- and that is all the difference in the world.

i would be a fool to argue with fools- but it is distressing to have so much venom directed at one-

it tends to make one defensive when one is offended upon.

julie- if you are an african american- then you should have more compassion when you see a group of people being vilified.

but xenophobia transcends all races.

because i said the word 'black' im a bigot?
classic example of out of context-

those words dont scare me because they do not resonate in my heart.

im not posting here again because the haters have taken over and if you want to foment fear and paranoia, do it among each others.

any one with half a brain sees fear for what it is-

although i notice no one has refuted the actual statements made by brother ramadan

he speaks seamlessly and coherently

so if the people here arent satisfied with such cogent dialogue- nothing will satisfy them

im off and peace

Thank you for your thoughts, Tariq. Your recent book on Western Muslims and the future of Islam was much appreciated.

Where I see your recent statements on apostasy as most useful are in light of the comments made here by Dr. Gomaa. Apostasy has become a political crime--simply tacked on as a charge against political dissenters by authoritarian regimes. The early sources you cite don't seem too far away from this interpretation, in that apostasy becomes a form of 'religious treason.'

Very few people (in the United States at least) have a problem with prescribing the death penalty for treason against the nation-state, but many of those same people think it barbaric that a religion, could, through its own jurisprudence, could prescribe death for its own form of "treason." The problem for me, it seems, would be how to reconcile the historical desire for an organic resonance between religion and politics in Islam, and yet still find ways to safeguard dissidence, either of the religious or political variety.

Bunk Is Bunk plagiarized:

"The principle of Al-Takeyya - The Arabic word, "Takeyya", means "to prevent," or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one's self or fellow Muslims..."

Christopher Responds:

Apart from being a gross mischaracterization of the principle of taqiyya, this is quite the cut and past hatchet job. If you're just going to plagiarize from other sources without crediting them, why should anyone listen to you?

Mohammed
"Please read Koran with commentary. You have to read it in context. Verses within surah/chapter are connected with each other. Each surah, verse has a background, an event, a situation and a reason."

I think many do know that, and many more will learn what has been unknown in the past when islam was thought of as "the religion of peace".

Ah remember those days?

You know you can't hide behind the excuses all muslims claimed whenever anyone quoted the quran.

You remember some of those don't you?

The 1. you quoted out of context.
2. it must be read in arabic.
3. you must read it with an open mind.
plus so many more.

I wish everyone who wants to know the muslim (arab) mind will read the quran and hadiths. It's all there in black and white. Do not listen to their excuses. Find out for yourself!

The only miracle in the quran is that it's believed by so many (deluded) people.

It is not the koran but who "wrote" the koran.

A short synopsis of the foundations of the OT, NT and the koranic book of death:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian/Jewish/Pagan sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics with much of the misery being supported by blood/oil money from Iran.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Quran critics:

Please read Koran with commentary. You have to read it in context. Verses within surah/chapter are connected with each other. Each surah, verse has a background, an event, a situation and a reason.

You're treating Quranic verses as if each of them is a formula to make a chemical-solution, complete and absolute, it is not. You should get Abullah Yusuf Ali's Quran commentary not just translation and read it. Also, you need to read Prophet's biography, a good book is Martin Lings' Muhammad.

Ignorance breed fear and fear breeds hatred.

What a load of crap. Good taqiya though.

Reply to Mr. Mohamed Malik,

Ummmm... Sir your post implied that many folks were Muslim who weren't. As to not being one of you if you mean a Muslim, no I am not. If you mean a mathematician, well - I'm not one like you either, since I understand both English and set theory i.e. your implied inclusions well enough to use more precise language.

As to a hate monger, well how about you address the fact that homosexuality is a capital offense in most Muslim nations. Given that Turing was quite notably gay, where would all that math you were going on about be if he were born in one of those countries?

Math logic time:

1. Many Muslim nations brutally execute gay men.
2. Alan was gay.
3. Therefore, if Alan were a citizen of one of those nations what would have happened to him?

Related question: is executing gay folks a hate crime?

Now further, please spare me the whole "Muslim world produces great academic advances" stuff. No one is saying that Muslims are stupid.

What we are worrying about is Muslims being violent. What we are worrying about is that much (not all, set theory again) of the Muslim world is dedicated to killing.

P.S. if I am to respect your value system, then you can respect mine. Where I come from, people like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hizbullah, Hamas and Al-queda are called savages, murderers and barbarians.

Having lived in the Middle East for the best part of the last 15 years, I would echo the comments of those who point out the myriad of contradictions.

Whilst they occur in all major religions, there would appear to be far less consensus in Islam as to what their beliefs actually are. The fact that some people still consider that someone could, or should, be punished with death for leaving their religion is a perfect example of why there exists a clash of beliefs.

Victoria:
It is very pleasant to read you. Thanks for writing otherwise it would be very painful to read the rants from people who are here not because they want to understand Islam and Muslim culture but otherwise.

Fox's brainwashed:
How many of you have read Brotherhood's founder biography?

Do you know why Bortherhood movement came in to existence?

How many of you read Quran with commentary? You have to read Quran in context and tafir/commentary can help you in that.

Try Abdul Yusuf Ali's Quran Tafir and Martin Ling's Prophet biography. This way you can ask better questions and can benefit yourself and Muslims.

People who are genuinely asking questions so that Muslims can understand themselves better and explain their side of story: Thanks You.

It is wise to remember that the Koran permits dissimulation. It is referred to by Arabs as "takiya".

It appears that Mr. Ramadan ignores the accepted meaning of jihad by the 10% to 15% of those following the Wahhabi interpretation of the Koran who prefer to call themselves "salafists".

Andrew Bostom, an MD practicing in Boston, provides a more scholarly treatment of the subjects covered by Mr. Ramadan in his book, "The Legacy of Jihad: Holy War and its Effect on Non-Muslims.

In a more recent article by Mr. Bostom,"Doctors of Death" referring to the recent jihad in England and Scotland, he provides an excellent explanation of the cause of terrorism. He uses the medical phrase "a fulmitant recrudescence" that means the rapid return of a disease that had long lay quiescent. He refers to the thousand year wave of Islamic Imperialism (632 - 1638) which lay quiescent from 1638 until 1979 when Iran invaded the US embassy in Teheran.

What is responsible for this fulminant recrudescence of jihad? It is likely the confluence of the formation of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt in 1920, the philosophers of terror such as Maulana Mawdudi, Sayeed Qutb, and Abdullah Azzam, and the flood of petrodollars which was available to Saudi Arabia from the takeover of Western investments in oilfields, and the formation of the OPEC oil cartel.
For internal political reasons, the Saudis have given many of these petrodollars to the Wahhabis who have used them to build mosques and madrassahs all over the world and to take control of many existing mosques. When this doctrine is repeated again and again to the faithful, it is easy to trace cause of terrorism applying Occam's razor. It is the simplest explanation.

Andrew Bostom's book quotes the Koran and the Hadiths, footnoting to the specific provisions. It seems to me it is a more reliable guide to the meaning of jihad and the other subjects covered by Mr. Ramadan.

Leave Iraq-OH PLEASE-GIVE ME A BREAK-LIKE CHRISTIANITY WASN'T FOUNDED ON VIOLENCE? HA! Ha! That's funny, and kinda stupid for you to hold up Islam as a sole example of same, now, isn't it?

For god's sakes, (no pun intended!) even BUDDHISM (which is typically regarded as an atheistic religion-since there is no personal god/deity-no, Buddha is not a personal god/deity) had its warring monks in Japan-and they fought some pretty bloody battles there in and around Kyoto of the 1600's.

And Mr. Anonymous (btw, you SOUND like Christopher Hitchens-I guess I wouldn't be surprised!). I don't buy that atheistic bullcrap of yours and your ilk either. That tired old bromide of religion is the root of all evil-all wars, therefore everyone should be a cool atheist like Hitchens is as usual, an overly facile analysis- and your example about "peaceful" state atheism in the form of Cuba and China is QUITE off the mark-since state atheism was (and is) in many ways as brutal and oppressive in IMPOSING state atheism on the population as atheists claim theistic communities are (as was the the order in Soviet Russia, clearly, not to mention Albania and China). So "going atheistic" simply ain't the all-incompassing answer you believe it to be on the questions of what brings about war, bloodshed and peace, that's for sure!

WIQAS M. TAHIR-good thoughts there, and I think your key point, particularly as it would apply to the words of T. Ramadan is this one:

"Modern Islamic civilizations and their present cultures are not blameless, and these facts should be clearly acknowledged and acted upon powerfully by Muslims interested in positive progress, instead of being ignored or "refuted".

EXCELLENT point, (particularly the last) indeed.

Leave Iraq-OH PLEASE-GIVE ME A BREAK-LIKE CHRISTIANITY WASN'T FOUNDED ON VIOLENCE? HA! Ha! That's funny, and kinda stupid for you to hold up Islam as a sole example of same, now, isn't it?

For god's sakes, (no pun intended!) even BUDDHISM (which is typically regarded as an atheistic religion-since there is no personal god/deity-no, Buddha is not a personal god/deity) had its warring monks in Japan-and they fought some pretty bloody battles there in and around Kyoto of the 1600's.

And Mr. Anonymous (btw, you SOUND like Christopher Hitchens-I guess I wouldn't be surprised!). I don't buy that atheistic bullcrap of yours and your ilk either. That tired old bromide of religion is the root of all evil-all wars, therefore everyone should be a cool atheist like Hitchens is as usual, an overly facile analysis- and your example about "peaceful" state atheism in the form of Cuba and China is QUITE off the mark-since state atheism was (and is) in many ways as brutal and oppressive in IMPOSING state atheism on the population as atheists claim theistic communities are (as was the the order in Soviet Russia, clearly, not to mention Albania and China). So "going atheistic" simply ain't the all-incompassing answer you believe it to be on the questions of what brings about war, bloodshed and peace, that's for sure!

WIQAS M. TAHIR-good thoughts there, and I think your key point, particularly as it would apply to the words of T. Ramadan is this one:

"Modern Islamic civilizations and their present cultures are not blameless, and these facts should be clearly acknowledged and acted upon powerfully by Muslims interested in positive progress, instead of being ignored or "refuted".

EXCELLENT point, (particularly the last) indeed.

It's simply amazing to me how anybody in this day and age falls for this crap!

Tariq Ramadan is a joke. Hey says "The concept of “jihad” has different meanings and a scholar such as Jalal ad-Dîn as-Suyutî (15th century), while studying its scope, highlighted 80 different dimensions, uses and objectives related to its place in Islamic teachings". The Quran and hadiths makes it very clear that jihad is to fight. Don't take my word for it read the quran and hadiths.
It's all there. Don't fall for the lies of so-called moderates. There are no moderates in islam! The moderates are not muslims. The moderates like me, left islam. When you believe that every word of the quran to be true then you cannot be a moderate. Simple isn't it?
Just ask any muslim if he believes that the quran is the true words of god or allah? If the say yes, they are not moderates!!!

HOPE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nZOcqXQ0SM this is a great one. thanks for posting it, i did not have this one.

and before anyone tries to tie me into that fake god of islam tell me this. why is it such a fool? why did it say the trinity was the father, son and mary, when the christian trinity was always father, son and holy spirit? what a dummy for a god. unless he was not really a god that said it.

but think of it this way. islamics lie and call themselves abrahamic people - pretending to be the decendents of abraham, the first jew who made a covenant with the god of the old testament. but they pretend abraham was not a jew. moho, who liked to have sex with a 9 year old girl, said that he was a decendant of abraham, through ishmael. the fool tried to say that ishmael was the son of abraham and his wife hagar, when everyone knew she was not a wife, but the maid servant of abrahams wife. why lie about that? because an illegit kid cant inherit and that was the point. pretend to be entitled to the property of the jews so you could steal it.
of course there was never any connection between moho and abraham. moho was in 570-629 ad and abraham was around 2500 bc. so after 3,000 years, and not one bit of evidence moho decided he was a decendant.
moho also got pissed because they jews would not accept him as the missah. duh!
so according to moho the god of the jews, who protected them, and who gave them jesus - a jew - who was the son of god according to christians, and the prince of peace, who said "love one another" that god - then told a child rapist that he was just kidding and that moho should kill the only two groups on the earth that believed in him as a god, jews and christians.

not only was the god of islam dumb and did not know common facts, known to everyone but a dumb camel jockey, we have to believe that the god of islam then decided to kill them all.

what a joke.

Caroline Fourest - Tariq Ramadan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTIOOCPgj7s&NR=1

in French

Mo Mal says:

"In spite of all this we are all brothers and sisters and we are Allah's 'children'."

Not this Christian. Not in a bizillion years.

(watch Mo Mal now try to tell us that Muslims invented the number bizillion)

A poster above says:

"We ought to recognize the Washington Post's constuctive effort to foster discourse amongst those of different perspectives.

As a proud American, however, I have to say that it is both revealing and very disappointing to see the level of venom and hatred being spewed onto these pages by so many folks."

I'm for dialogu