All Comments (25)

According to Marty

"To suggest that violence is what the other faith is all about is dishonest and always alienating"

Marty,

You need to get a better grip my friend. You are a poster child for Dhimmitude R' Us.

Read these 711 quotes from the KORAN:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/inj/long.html

and then tell me again that violence is not what Islam is all about.

And while you are at it, I challenge you to find 711 places in the Koran that exhort the virtues of love and benevolence to all MANkind.

So to engage a muslim without alienating I should just ignore and forget for a moment that as a basic and central tenet of that person's faith he is supposed to either a.) conquer me and pay him extortion (jizya), or b.) kill me, or, c.) I can avoid all that nastiness and simply convert to Islam.

Yes, Marty, that sounds like an intelligent way at dialouge while jihadist continue their romping about the world conquering, killing or converting all in their way at world domination.

You're living in a dream world dude, wake up.

Marty, I suggest you spend your next 5 year project in downtown Tehran and try out your non-confrontational theory there. Bring a CD with a Karaoke version of Kumbaya and you can all hold hands and sing your multiciltural hearts' out. Be sure to come back and tell of all your successful conversations and how well your ideas and exchanges about faith and tolerance were so well accepted.

I'll be waiting to hear all about it.

According to Marty

"To suggest that violence is what the other faith is all about is dishonest and always alienating"

Marty,

You need to get a better grip my friend. You are a poster child for Dhimmitude R' Us.

Read these 711 quotes from the KORAN:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/inj/long.html

and then tell me again that violence is not what Islam is all about.

And while you are at it, I challenge you to find 711 places in the Koran that exhort the virtues of love and benevolence to all MANkind.

So to engage a muslim without alienating I should just ignore and forget for a moment that as a basic and central tenet of that person's faith he is supposed to either a.) conquer me and pay him extortion (jizya), or b.) kill me, or, c.) I can avoid all that nastiness and simply convert to Islam.

Yes, Marty, that sounds like an intelligent way at dialouge while jihadist continue their romping about the world conquering, killing or converting all in their way at world domination.

You're living in a dream world dude, wake up.

Marty, I suggest you spend your next 5 year project in downtown Tehran and try out your non-confrontational theory there. Bring a CD with a Karaoke version of Kumbaya and you can all hold hands and sing your multiciltural hearts' out. Be sure to come back and tell of all your successful conversations and how well your ideas and exchanges about faith and tolerance were so well accepted.

I'll be waiting to hear all about it.

"Marty, I suggest you spend your next 5 year project in downtown Tehran and try out your non-confrontational theory there."

I've been to downtown Tehran, Brian. It's a nice place with friendly people. And they would most likely enjoy the karaoke version. I would suggest actually going to Tehran first, Brian, before spouting off your xenophobic, hateful views on a public forum.

What you wrote is YOUR view and not the truth. You are distorting reality beyond imagination. Truth is, there are crazy psychotics in every religion that will use violence and force to gain their way. While they should be dealt with, spreading fear and bigoted propaganda without having any first-hand experience is careless.

Have you ever engaged a Muslim ? And if so, were you conquered, forced to pay extortion, or killed? I didn't think so.

Brian:

As a skeptical atheist and someone who has used the Skeptics Bible site myself to counter theistic claims of the superiority of scriptural morality, let me give you some advice.

Get to know some actual Muslims before you go judging them all on the basis of your rather narrow. biased interpretation of their scripture. Bashing all Muslims for the bad behaviour of the few is as sensible as denouncing my pacifist Mennonite relatives for the crimes of the KKK.

That site is a useful resource, but don't forget it includes a section on "Good Stuff" for each of those scriptures as well.

You can choose to live in fear and ignorance if you want but in doing so you're not much different than any other fundamentalist and you just contribute to the problems of mistrust and misunderstanding. As for me, I choose to live in the light of reason and look for common ground and mutually acceptable solutions.

Regards

A Hermit

If we call ourselves Christian, then we know Christ's "Sermon on the Mount" a Sermon that has radically altered man's consciousness toward his fellow man. We know Paul's letter to the Corinthians on "Love" - what it is and what it isn't.
And maybe we even know the Prayer of St. Francis Assisi "
"Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred let me so love,
Where there is injury, pardon,
...."
I have not studied the Koran and would like to know more about the Muslim faith. What are the equivalants in the Koran to the Sermon on the Mount, to St. Paul's admonition on "Love", and to the Prayer of St.Francis that would bring us together as human being trying to understand our place in this universe. We are constantly subject to extremist rhetoric and violence, perpetrated in the name of religion (Christian and Muslin), that tears us apart, and damages our ability to trust in one another.

mr marty actually started to describe the greater jihad in his mirror paragraph.

for christians, the "remove the plank from your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from your brothers " is the beginning of it.

in the greater jihad (struggle against ones lower nature) we are compelled to relentlessly and fearlessly inventory our own weaknesses, passions, impure motives slefishnesses, inner violence and angers- in other words, our faults.

this is a constant process throughout our lives.

this self analysis never stops.

if muslims and christians both practice this inner struggle, there is little energy or inclination to be looking at the "other" with jaded eyes.

peace

Have to say, Maureen, it's Christians I'm often thinking should be paying more attention to the Sermon on the Mount rather than the triumphalist and restrictive stuff in their Bible, particularly in interfaith discussions and amid the recent power-grabs and hysteria.

I see two big religions where many construe people simply believing differently as attacks and threats, and that's not a good equation in the current times.

And especially not for the foreseeable future: the path the world's been on has likely given us a future of catastrophe management, and likely a great deal of conflict over resources: how people behave now could set the tone for how bad things get on a human level.

actually, id extend this critical self examination to everyone.

in islam maureen, the Prophet(peace and blessngs be upon him) said, "We should all want for our sisters and brothers what we want for ourselves"

we respect and revere Jesus(ata) so much that we never mention his name without adding blessings upon him.

the most respected woman in islam, is not the wife of the Prophet(pbuh) or his mother as might be expected, but Mary(also blessings of the god upon her) the mother of Jesus(ata).

when eagerly asked by his companions who would be the closest to him in paradise, Muhammad(pbuh) put his first two fingers together and intertwined them, and said,"Jesus(ata) and I will be like this in paradise.

i have to og od laundry and cant give you the scriptures right now, but there are hundreds of exhortations to peace and mercy and compassion and love in the qu'ran.

thank you for your interest and open heart.

peace

sorry that last post was victoria

Hello Brethren(s) Marty Martin; Sistar(s);

welcome from Brooklyn , N.Y., U.S.A.; Hello Cyber friend(s) & Real Friends;

You Wrote".. Spoke to Mosloms/Muslums/Muslems From Houston to Auschwitz.. " Similar said. WOW!

My Dad was born in LODZ, POLAND and Hitler, not so much Germans themselves, {Bless Always Humates Mr. Schindler & other Dutchland good folk & their posterity always] killed ALL, EVERY Member [47, except me ABBA Zelig] of ours Family. So;

No Grandma, No Grandpa, No Aunt, No Uncle, No Cousins..! And besides US not ever asking that WE should be Born into this Miraculous life of One Universal Religion system, a/k/a O.U.R.S REALITY on the Eternal Move.

Note: Birth is and was never Sin, according to Bible Speak & Writ, and also Sex is never Sin, just beautiful, enjoy IT but do not abuse IT (G-d in you via Miraculous HORMONES) and Besides, That's how we got here stupids!, Hay, Is that statement too Tautological for ya?. AND;

Stalin, Not russians per se, Killed All The Men in My Mother Lida's Side in Ukrain. She is "The Only Survivor" that I got to see and enjoy is my Aunt Anna, Whom I Smuggled (my Mothers Sister) out of the former (Still is same shiat but under a New name) the U.S.S.R.. And So later;

I was Born in Israel (50's). I did not ask to be born, did you ask to be born? or EVOLUTE on terrestrial, fussion endowed, Space-Ship Momma Poppa Earth from the MAGMApercolation only to Disappear via the PLASMAtriculation of the Holy Heuristical [Eternal Soul/Photon Essence], transparently leaving behind our biofinite carbon Based Jackets, so to speaketh, as always on entity's (Ghost Like) & under the Law of "QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT & RELATIVITY" We move into the "Entropy-Zone" and then, at a Flash omnipresently and shure as saying, the "Fiat-Lux" , the LORD/ECLAT + "i" Eschatologically Exchanges US (and then working out ones SALVATION ,on each his/her Own) INSTANTANEOUSLY in the "Non-Gravity-Place" of "The-Due-To-Be Holy Cosmic Spirit (your IMMORTAL heuristical) Machine, so to speaketh, or as a Placement or Planet placing US or World Placementing (place to place as phenomona to be aware) as WE are Hopping in Miracle . ???

Important: There Are NO Vestal-Virgin-Vogue (vvv) story's such as "72 Virgins" up in the air somwhere in Supernatural City nor, in Eclati-Onity is there any "IMMACULATE CONCEPTION" non Eclat but Man Made Story's of Novel-Star(s) Mr. Moses et al. Please know that that "NOT" Mr. Jesus who founded the word "Church" & the "New Testament" and their "Plagerized" Story's therein and thereof; FACT:

On: Roman MYTHology in the YASHUA BIRTH Story; That Rejecting the Marriage of RHEA to cronus in the legend of the greeks (my Mother is part) about ZEUZ who was supposed to have been the child of rhea and Cronus, the "Priests" Of "Rome" (Eponym of Romolous) began to "traditionally?" define the Origin Of Rome [After the death of Alexander The great, a/k/a "The Only begotten Son" of G-D & Man, not Jesus] from Romulus whose mother rhea had been condemned to death because she was a "Vestal-Virgin" and was NOT supposed to have sex with ANY mortals and she could Not Proove that her preagnancy came from the G-D? MARS who represented WAR and gave the Men Of Rome their Prowess to be Warriors far superior to the Greeks and, as such, rulers of the World which, accordingly, MUST BE subjugated To Roman Civilization.

Remember: When saying , Amon in Hebrew or Ameen in Arabic or Amen in Chritian , is that ALL Abrahamics are Thanking , in Opening, mid or Closing prayers to a 1/2 Man 1/2 beast relic of Pagaon rituals that was Freudiantly Slipped into them Story's via Mr. Moses [pbuh], then Upheld By Mr. Jesus[pbuh] & Like The World Trade Center, later again by Mr. Muhammad[pbuh] "Hijacked" both of them via the "HAGAR REJECTION STORY of Novel Star Moses & the "JACOB ULTIMATE SWITCHAROO SWINDLE STORY(s)" too. And

All three Abrahamics faiths, religions, Belief Systems TODAY are in fact POLY (More then one, PPlural G-D's religion) THEISTIC (Supernatural/Deity, belief or and Faith) Systems and NOT & NEVER was JUDAH-CHRIST-ISLAMAH a MONO ("ONE" Singular, true & genuine Entity as a GOD singular)! So please never say Thank a Half Man Half Beast relic or Pagan Statute! thanks! So ALL THREE Abrahamicc are in fact POLYTHEO RELIGION(s) & Not ECLATi-ON MONO HOLY COSMIC FEELERS FAITH, SYSTEM! Note: The Singularity. And hence the OUR-BOOK, One Universal Religion Book, And;

Never Swallow, in efigy, a Mans Flesh nor Drink, in efigy, a Mans Blood! The EUCHARIST/COMMUNION is an Insult, as an ancient [PRE-APOCALYPTIC] SYMBOLIC Ritual to Eclatarians! this behavior, if Zeus could Only see so to Speaketh, is tantamount to Symbolic or Practice, by Proxy, CANNIBALISM & VAMPIRISM. Also;

Self Flagalation or of commiting Self "MORTIFICATION" is also an insult to "Modern Morality" Eclati-on Thinkers et al! Musloms/Christians/Jews/Hindus/Budhist all do this. Note: ALL these Pre-Apocalyptic Faiths have Blood on their UnHoly Hands, not Eclat's Hand, so to speaketh! And All have caused or had their Share of HOLOCAUST Makings. Note: HISTORY is OURS JURY! So G-d/Eclat Consents , but only for a TIME (OUR Temperature , not clock time, on the Holy Cosmic eternal Eschatological Moving US via "The Miracle", and never was a biblical Sin (As mental inducing Birth & Sex story's thus causing these hangovers or complexes via their ancient Old Songs & theoir Priests whom perpetute them wrongly!). Thank You!

P.S. I Want To Thank The GERMAM-PEOPLE for giving my Parents Reperation Money, since that's how We Came To AMERICA, U.S.A. From ISRAEL! We could have Immigrated to AUSTRALIA instead. Oh, well, one cannot Be in Two Places At Once.

Behold: It's True, "Let There Be PHOTONS"! And JUST as Loving and Miraculous, ALL, Every & ANY of the "Five Major Religion(s) today, Now, on Space-Ship Tellus, ancient name for Momma Poppa Earth , agree to something like in GENESIS: 1: 1,2,3.END. Note Eclati-on(s) know that Earth & Grandma/Pa SUN and OUR Solar System or "Star System" is around 4.98 Billion Years old and never ever was created in "Six (6) Eclati-ON Days". not Biblical. So GEN: 1: 1-2-3 is the End of that Man Made Story. Never Accept #4 and beyond or REALITY gets Consumed by Hell Fire & Brime Stone & Satanic Versus.

Note: All Preapocalyptic Scriptures are more Dangerous then R.K. Rowlings {a welfare Mom turned Super Rich not Supernatural) HARRY POTTER series of Kids Books, involving folks like EVIL (Mr. VOLDERMORT) or GOOD (Mr. DUMBLE DORE). But then Again even Wiccan & Paganism are also Pre-Apocalyptic beliefs or and Practices (i.e., Witch Craft, Clairvoyance , or like Indias 1st Woman New President, Mrs. PATIL-Pratibbha, who talks with or to Dead Guru's in real life practices? etc..) except fot the MUGGLES. (non Believers). Acsually I like the STAR-WARS (Space-Forth) type of Prophecy Story's like Good & Evil via THE "DARK-SIDE" of the Creator[Lord/Eclat] & the "BRIGHT-SIDE" Of The creator (Eclat a/k/a SOURCE-ONE/GOD/ALMIGHTY/LORD) Ya Ya. So;

Enjoy your Holy Cosmic heart beat and temporary Ride , here on Violent Space-Ship Earth.

Vote: for the U.N. creation via the "WORLD-FAITH-EXCHANGE for the The "OUR-BOOK', or by many names yet meaning the samething to ANY HUMATE (Citizen of Earth) and By ANY Language as ONE GOD!, ONE EARTH, ONE MOM, ONE DAD, ONE SISTER, ONE BROTHER et al ONE! Stop in the Name Of Love! please uphold the HOURS-BOOK and throw away your old/New/Quran Bibles or Books & also All the unHoly Geetas etc..

Praise the Lord/Eclat in and of US-ALL, Together Forever Mitt Source One on Space-Ship momma Poppa Earth before they Die Too! In Shiloha there is Sholomha,

ya Ya. <? :+)/ Um um yummy.

Reading “A Christian Scholar’s View’ I was appalled that someone who spent 5 years as part of a project on religious fundamentalism does not seem to have learned much about Islam in that time. Jihad can indeed mean the struggle within one’s self. But while Professor Marty is happy to point out that ‘jihad’ is often used by people wanting to encourage hatred of Muslims, he conveniently doesn’t mention the other truth that many Muslims not only believe it is an exhortation to violence but act on it. The Muslim suicide bomber doesn’t struggle with his inner self. He simply tries to murder and maim as many people as he can, secure in the knowledge that Allah will have his 72 virgins ready for him as soon as he arrives in heaven.

On the subject of suicide bombers – how many Christian or Jewish suicide bombers can he name? None, because there aren’t any. The majority of suicide bombers have been Muslims just as the majority of acts of terrorism across the world are committed by Muslims who use the Koran to justify their murderous acts. Perhaps the professor has fallen for the PC line that Islam is a religion of peace. Certainly, to argue that ‘to suggest that violence is what the other faith is all about is dishonest and always alienating,’ shows that he hasn’t read much of the Koran or the Sunnahs. The Koran teaches violence, intimidation, intolerance and outright murder of non-Muslims. And it all happens!

There are violent tracts in the Old and New Testaments and the Hebrew Scriptures too. Professor Marty hasn't met a Jew or Christian who thinks that they are what Christianity and Judaism are all about because Christianity and Judaism have moved on. Unfortunately, too many Muslims remain firmly stuck hundreds of years in the past. For them the teachings of the Koran are as valid today as they were when Mohammed unleashed them. Muslims are obliged to believe that the Koran is the words of their god, to be obeyed and not questioned. And the result of this is horrific violence and carnage around the world inflicted in the name of Islam.

There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim – only good and bad Muslims. Osama Bin Laden is a good Muslim who follows the Koran to the letter and seeks a world ruled by sharia law. A bad Muslim does not. Fortunately, there are many more bad Muslims than good ones or we would probably have suicide bombers on every street corner.

So forget silly word games about the meaning of crusade and tolerance. Pope Urban II called the Crusades in 1095 because he understood that violent Islam would dominate the world and erase Christianity if it wasn’t stopped. He wasn’t prepared to tolerate the intolerable. Islamic goals haven’t changed an iota since then but we are still too blinded by our own liberal PC culture to recognize the danger yet.

By all means let us hold up that mirror to ourselves as Christians or Jews but yes, for the sake of us all, let us educate ourselves about pure Islam and acknowledge that it is the enemy the civilized world faces.

It is time for Muslims to educate themselves about Islam too. Because only when Islam has a renaissance will it become the religion of peace it claims to be. If it does not have that renaissance, then it has no place in a civilized world. So let us hear the great silent majority of Muslims loudly condemn and cast out those Muslim imams who preach extremism in mosques. They must condemn those who warp the minds of young people so that they strap on explosive vests and destroy their lives and the lives of others. Let us hear them saying and proving that the verses in the Koran which preach violence, intolerance and hatred belong to the past and have no place in civilized society.

But Professor Marty quite rightly says that it’s important not to expect too much. What is the point in trying to build ‘upon empathic efforts of present-day leaders’ when those very leaders persist in calling Islam a religion of peace and refuse to name Islamic terrorism for the threat that it really is. All such appeasement does is encourage further acts of terrorism.

the self reflexive tone of this article is a breath of fresh air after reading all the muslim contributers who do nothing but argue how great theri faith is. if we are ever going to have a real conversation, the muslim contributers will have to be more like marty.

Martin Marty has no clue of what Islam -- as defined by its god and prophet in Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira -- really is.

There are moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate.

Communication is important and valuable when the other party communicates in good faith. I do not doubt that Marty has met many decent people of good will who self-identify as "Muslim."

It appears from his comments that he has engaged in dialogue also with "moderate" Muslims seeking to deceive ignorant and gullible Infidels about the role in Islam of offensive warfare against them. His lack of intellectual curiosity and inability to distinguish truth from propaganda calls into question his credibility.

As for studying "religious fundamentalism," what is the only major religion on earth that -- when its adherents practice the religion as its authoritative texts say they must -- enslaves and kills those who refuse to submit to its god? Only Islam. That bit of moral equivalence calls into question Marty's credibility.

Demonstrating his suicidal ignorance of Islam, Marty repeats one of the half-truths perpetrated with a success of which Joseph Goebbels only dreamed: jihad doesn't mean what we think it means.

It is true that "jihad" means "struggle." There are many kinds of struggle.

It is is curious that Marty spends many words on the use of the term as meaning "peaceful inner struggle" but addresses not at all the meaning of the word in the context most troubling to non-Muslims: offensive warfare against Infidels to make the world Islam.

Offensive jihad to establish the tyranny of Allah over all mankind is fundamental to nearly fourteen centuries of Islamic theology, jurisprudence, and history. This is so because Allah commanded it and Mohammed practiced it.

The theology of offensive jihad comes directly from Allah's commands and Muhammad's words and deeds (e.g., Qur'an 9:5, 9:29, and Muslim Book 019, Number 4294). They require the faithful to offer non-Muslims three choices: conversion to Islam, subjugation with payment of the jizya (an oppressive poll tax), or death.

Additionally, all the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence teach the necessity for offensive jihad in order to subjugate unbelievers to the rule of Allah.

Contrary to what Marty and his fellow apologists for jihad would have us believe, "jihad" used in this manner is consistent with Islam's "holy" texts:

"the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war. . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 019, Number 4294).

"fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) . . . " (Qur’an 9:5).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

"Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do" (Qur'an 8:38, 39).

Was Mohammed commanding that if non-Muslims refuse to convert or submit to Islam that the faithful should seek Allah's help and "struggle inwardly" against them?

Was Allah requiring the faithful to "struggle inwardly" and slay the Pagans wherever they are found?

Was Allah urging Muslims to "struggle inwardly" against those who reject Allah until they submit and feel subdued?

Did Mohammed confess, "I have been ordered to 'struggle inwardly' against the people" until all worship only Allah?

Did Allah mandate "inward struggles" until there prevail faith in Allah altogether and everywhere"?

Jihad as "inner struggle" is found in one hadith from a collection not considered traditionally by Muslims among the most reliable, but Marty and his fellow "scholars" are unaware of these verses of blood from Qur'an and reliable ahadith?

Therefore, Marty accuses of hatred those who use the term "jihad" correctly. In making this false, ad hominem attack and in dutifully and foolishly repeating this misrepresentation of the meaning of "jihad," he calls into question his credibility.

Marty also mentions the Crusades, a favorite tu quoque argument made by jihad's apologists. The only problem is (though Crusaders did commit evil) that the first Crusade was called by Pope Urban II in defense of Christians in the East under siege for centuries by hordes of bloodthirsty Muslims "struggling inwardly" against them. In hinting uncritically at this tried and true tu quoque, Marty calls into question his credibility.

Furthermore, what exactly about Mohammed's lying, stealing, enslaving, raping (including his nine-year-old "wife" Aisha), and slaughtering of non-Muslims who refused to submit to his god should moral people tolerate? In uncritically urging tolerance of Islam's "divinely" -inspired depravity and brutality, Marty calls into question his intellectual integrity and his moral judgment.

The most outrageous claim made by Martin Marty in his essay is that somehow the Bible and Islam's texts are morally equivalent. This could not be further from the truth. He is right to urge education of others' religions; sadly, he has not taken his own advice. In trying to equate Christ's Word with Allah's revelations, Marty commits blasphemy.

He also erroneously equates the command for ancient Israel to war against the inhabitants of Canaan -- a limited, specific command for one time, place, and target -- with Allah and Mohammed's universal and timeless commands and frequent examples of warring against non-Muslims until all submit to Islam. In making such a false equivalence, Marty calls into question his intellectual integrity.

More than "creative conversation" (isn't that lying?) or "common action" (always in the direction of less honesty about Islam), telling the truth about the Religion of Peace will enable Muslims of good will to either reshape or reject their god's doctrine of blood. More importantly for non-Muslims, realizing what motivates and sustains jihad will enable us to correctly identify the threat and plan accordingly.

Alleging the existence of "inward strugglers" of the "Religion of Peace," demonizing honest, accurate criticism of Islam, equating our self-defense with Islamic terrorism, and implying that violent "extremism" is coming anywhere but from Islam only aids Allah's War Against Humanity.

Being a Christian and a scholar, Martin Marty should know better.

Martin Marty has no clue of what Islam -- as defined by its god and prophet in Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira -- really is.

There are moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate.

Communication is important and valuable when the other party communicates in good faith. I do not doubt that Marty has met many decent people of good will who self-identify as "Muslim."

It appears from his comments that he has engaged in dialogue also with "moderate" Muslims seeking to deceive ignorant and gullible Infidels about the role in Islam of offensive warfare against them. His lack of intellectual curiosity and inability to distinguish truth from propaganda calls into question his credibility.

As for studying "religious fundamentalism," what is the only major religion on earth that -- when its adherents practice the religion as its authoritative texts say they must -- enslaves and kills those who refuse to submit to its god? Only Islam. That bit of moral equivalence calls into question Marty's credibility.

Demonstrating his suicidal ignorance of Islam, Marty repeats one of the half-truths perpetrated with a success of which Joseph Goebbels only dreamed: jihad doesn't mean what we think it means.

It is true that "jihad" means "struggle." There are many kinds of struggle.

It is is curious that Marty spends many words on the use of the term as meaning "peaceful inner struggle" but addresses not at all the meaning of the word in the context most troubling to non-Muslims: offensive warfare against Infidels to make the world Islam.

Offensive jihad to establish the tyranny of Allah over all mankind is fundamental to nearly fourteen centuries of Islamic theology, jurisprudence, and history. This is so because Allah commanded it and Mohammed practiced it.

The theology of offensive jihad comes directly from Allah's commands and Muhammad's words and deeds (e.g., Qur'an 9:5, 9:29, and Muslim Book 019, Number 4294). They require the faithful to offer non-Muslims three choices: conversion to Islam, subjugation with payment of the jizya (an oppressive poll tax), or death.

Additionally, all the major schools of Islamic jurisprudence teach the necessity for offensive jihad in order to subjugate unbelievers to the rule of Allah.

Contrary to what Marty and his fellow apologists for jihad would have us believe, "jihad" used in this manner is consistent with Islam's "holy" texts:

"the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war. . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 019, Number 4294).

"fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) . . . " (Qur’an 9:5).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

"Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do" (Qur'an 8:38, 39).

Was Mohammed commanding that if non-Muslims refuse to convert or submit to Islam that the faithful should seek Allah's help and "struggle inwardly" against them?

Was Allah requiring the faithful to "struggle inwardly" and slay the Pagans wherever they are found?

Was Allah urging Muslims to "struggle inwardly" against those who reject Allah until they submit and feel subdued?

Did Mohammed confess, "I have been ordered to 'struggle inwardly' against the people" until all worship only Allah?

Did Allah mandate "inward struggles" until there prevail faith in Allah altogether and everywhere"?

Jihad as "inner struggle" is found in one hadith from a collection not considered traditionally by Muslims among the most reliable, but Marty and his fellow "scholars" are unaware of these verses of blood from Qur'an and reliable ahadith?

Therefore, Marty accuses of hatred those who use the term "jihad" correctly. In making this false, ad hominem attack and in dutifully and foolishly repeating this misrepresentation of the meaning of "jihad," he calls into question his credibility.

Marty also mentions the Crusades, a favorite tu quoque argument made by jihad's apologists. The only problem is (though Crusaders did commit evil) that the first Crusade was called by Pope Urban II in defense of Christians in the East under siege for centuries by hordes of bloodthirsty Muslims "struggling inwardly" against them. In hinting uncritically at this tried and true tu quoque, Marty calls into question his credibility.

Furthermore, what exactly about Mohammed's lying, stealing, enslaving, raping (including his nine-year-old "wife" Aisha), and slaughtering of non-Muslims who refused to submit to his god should moral people tolerate? In uncritically urging tolerance of Islam's "divinely" -inspired depravity and brutality, Marty calls into question his intellectual integrity and his moral judgment.

The most outrageous claim made by Martin Marty in his essay is that somehow the Bible and Islam's texts are morally equivalent. This could not be further from the truth. He is right to urge education of others' religions; sadly, he has not taken his own advice. In trying to equate Christ's Word with Allah's revelations, Marty commits blasphemy.

He also erroneously equates the command for ancient Israel to war against the inhabitants of Canaan -- a limited, specific command for one time, place, and target -- with Allah and Mohammed's universal and timeless commands and frequent examples of warring against non-Muslims until all submit to Islam. In making such a false equivalence, Marty calls into question his intellectual integrity.

More than "creative conversation" (isn't that lying?) or "common action" (always in the direction of less honesty about Islam), telling the truth about the Religion of Peace will enable Muslims of good will to either reshape or reject their god's doctrine of blood. More importantly for non-Muslims, realizing what motivates and sustains jihad will enable us to correctly identify the threat and plan accordingly.

Alleging the existence of "inward strugglers" of the "Religion of Peace," demonizing honest, accurate criticism of Islam, equating our self-defense with Islamic terrorism, and implying that violent "extremism" is coming anywhere but from Islam only aids Allah's War Against Humanity.

Being a Christian and a scholar, Martin Marty should know better.

Sorry 'bout the double post.

I came across this article in the Christian Science Monitor recently; kind of puts thing in perspective a little:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.html

"The myth of Muslim support for terror
The common enemy is violence and terrorism, not Muslims any more than Christians or Jews.
By Kenneth Ballen
(Photograph)
DEAN ROHRER

WASHINGTON - Those who think that Muslim countries and pro-terrorist attitudes go hand-in-hand might be shocked by new polling research: Americans are more approving of terrorist attacks against civilians than any major Muslim country except for Nigeria.

The survey, conducted in December 2006 by the University of Maryland's prestigious Program on International Public Attitudes, shows that only 46 percent of Americans think that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24 percent believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified."

Contrast those numbers with 2006 polling results from the world's most-populous Muslim countries – Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nigeria. Terror Free Tomorrow, the organization I lead, found that 74 percent of respondents in Indonesia agreed that terrorist attacks are "never justified"; in Pakistan, that figure was 86 percent; in Bangladesh, 81 percent.

Do these findings mean that Americans are closet terrorist sympathizers?

Hardly. Yet, far too often, Americans and other Westerners seem willing to draw that conclusion about Muslims..."

-----------

If we allow the terrorist to shape our beliefs about what Islam is and what Muslims believe we are surrendering to them.

I don't let the racists from the KKK or Christian Identity Movement shape my opinion of what a Christian is, why would I let Bin Laden's goons tell me what to think about Muslims?!

Others may choose to bow down to fear and ignorance but I will choose to live in the light of reason.

Regards

A Hermit

Att: A. H E R M I T T, et al;

There are Three types of Civilians anywhere on Earth!

1) Brave,
2) Scared,
3) Coward!

Note: It is the "Cowards" whom are Blending-in with the Scared & Brave, but because there are More scared folk in any given Time & Place, that getting Caught is Hard and the "Collateral" Damage is just as Shocking but Truly Felt, like when a "POWER-PLANT" or Gasoline Refiners are Destroyed! Hence, Satan & His LOvers , in Islams Name, the destroyer(s) of their own Society's and is an afront against Humanity ITSELF [G-D is US and US in IT (Allah)]. And So;

Just like any other Dieing "Jihaddista Idiot-ology" The "Brave Together with the "Scared" folk will eventual Prevail & thus unbollix the Bibliomaniac Koranaholics , the Bolloxed! Like Momma said, "Time is the Best Medicine." And me Dad would say, "If You See Something that is against Humanity, then Spaek-Up Man or Fight to preserve IT [All good Humate-Kind On Space-Ship Earth]. And;

H E R M I T T:

"He Who Knows Himself Knows His LORD."

- ByPersian Sulfi, Al Ghazali [pbuh](A.D. 1111). And;

"LOVE by "ITSELF" ("ALLAH/GOD' did not want to be lonely this is why We are Appearing Here), without ANY Admixture of Knowledge , would be an impossibility, ans so What is LOVED is, by that very act, Considered Good.."

- Our ProPhet of many, Albert Einstein [an Ecatarion having Holy Cosmic Feelers Faith Experience(s) via ours "Spooky Stuff" via OUR immortal "Quantum Entanglement" Eschatological Born Again placement through the Non Gravity Place, a/k/a ] Holy Cosmic Due-To-Be Machine.. [peace be upon him/her, et all].

"Infinite "Substance" Plus "Law(of) "Nature = Your TRANSFINITY as REALITY, a/k/a your Detrministic Impersonal Deity"

- Spinoza [Eclati-On].

Sholom!

Dear Mr. Martin Marty,
Muslims who seek peace call Jihad as inner struggle,and for fundamentalist it is holy war, in fact I fail to understand this distortion. Actually for iner struggle the word is Jad wo jahed, which the peace loving muslims are hiding, so as to defend the word Jihad which is commonly known.
For interfaith dialogue , Muslims must tolerate criticism of Moahammed and Quran. If Maohammed is a great man,his greatness will not be reduced by anybody's criticism, this simple logic is nto a fundamental part of the Islamic relegion.
Muslim propaganda from the Mosques is repeated so many times by so many people that it looks like a fact. For example Many Muslims believe that the attack of 9/11 was done by Jews even though it is so illogical. Such illogical faith produces fundamentalists, and dialogue has no logic.

Dear Mr. Martin Marty,
Muslims who seek peace call Jihad as inner struggle,and for fundamentalist it is holy war, in fact I fail to understand this distortion. Actually for iner struggle the word is Jad wo jahed, which the peace loving muslims are hiding, so as to defend the word Jihad which is commonly known.
For interfaith dialogue , Muslims must tolerate criticism of Moahammed and Quran. If Maohammed is a great man,his greatness will not be reduced by anybody's criticism, this simple logic is nto a fundamental part of the Islamic relegion.
Muslim propaganda from the Mosques is repeated so many times by so many people that it looks like a fact. For example Many Muslims believe that the attack of 9/11 was done by Jews even though it is so illogical. Such illogical faith produces fundamentalists, and dialogue has no logic.

What seems most useful is that we respect the differences between Islam, Judaism and Christianity and not try to homogenize them in the interest of "dialogue." That is not dialogue. That is dumbing down and missing the unique identifiers of each faith. It is essential to me as a Jew that Islam be different from Judaism just as it is essential for a Muslim to have his or her own faith separate from the others.

What is most needed is knowledge of each other.

What seems most useful is that we respect the differences between Islam, Judaism and Christianity and not try to homogenize them in the interest of "dialogue." That is not dialogue. That is dumbing down and missing the unique identifiers of each faith. It is essential to me as a Jew that Islam be different from Judaism just as it is essential for a Muslim to have his or her own faith separate from the others.

What is most needed is knowledge of each other.

What seems most useful is that we respect the differences between Islam, Judaism and Christianity and not try to homogenize them in the interest of "dialogue." That is not dialogue. That is dumbing down and missing the unique identifiers of each faith. It is essential to me as a Jew that Islam be different from Judaism just as it is essential for a Muslim to have his or her own faith separate from the others.

What is most needed is knowledge of each other.

What seems most useful is that we respect the differences between Islam, Judaism and Christianity and not try to homogenize them in the interest of "dialogue." That is not dialogue. That is dumbing down and missing the unique identifiers of each faith. It is essential to me as a Jew that Islam be different from Judaism just as it is essential for a Muslim to have his or her own faith separate from the others.

What is most needed is knowledge of each other.

What seems most useful is that we respect the differences between Islam, Judaism and Christianity and not try to homogenize them in the interest of "dialogue." That is not dialogue. That is dumbing down and missing the unique identifiers of each faith. It is essential to me as a Jew that Islam be different from Judaism just as it is essential for a Muslim to have his or her own faith separate from the others.

What is most needed is knowledge of each other.

The insightful comments by a knowledgeable scholar such as Martin Marty are both timely and welcome to sincere, believing Chrisians. They demonstate that Christians who know both their Christianity and Islam can see through the stereotypes and misperceptions filtered through the media. The latter are often the only source of information, bostered by handy websites, for many Americans. The proof of this can be seen in the hordes who decamp almost instantly from such websites and swarm to forums such as these-- artificially multiphying their presence--where any attempt is made to hold intelligent adult dialogue.

At the same time, Dr. Marty's comment should also be welcome to Muslim both in this forum and elsewhere. They demonstrate that Christians are not represented by those who promote hatred and bigotry. It only seems like toat because the most ignorant seem to scream the loudest.