Please do not comment on Hindu apostasy or Buddhist ones, since the terms do not exist in these dharmic traditions. There are no believers or non-believers in Dharmic religions, neither do they profess to be the "chosen ones". I think the point of this debate was to focus on Islam's treatment of non-believers or as you might say, kafirs. So, do try and address the ills that are plaguing your faith but in an objective manner and not by trying to draw parallels which do not even make sense.

For Sheikh Murad only,

As with all pro-Muslim commentators especially those brainwashed in Islam, you missed the important issue i.e. the flawed foundations of Islam and all the flawed foundations of contemporary religions.

Please peruse the following followed by your own critique of the flawed foundations of religions:

A synopsis reiterated many times because of its importance:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian/Jewish/Pagan sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics with most of this misery being funded by the third Axis of Evil aka Iran.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.

ASA.

This is by far one of the best explanations I have read so far on WAPO "Muslims Speakout" sections.

Awesome!

Samir

Why because he's a white convert? Makes you feel better when rubbish comes from the White folks too.

Am I the only one who thinks a native Brit convert to Islam who becomes a Sheikh is a little well, "weird"? But then, we know the Brits are an eccentric lot, indeed! Cambridge, huh? Yeah, that figures!

I'm wondering what this particular Sheikh has to say about all the hate invective spread around England, particularly in the London environs, by the so-called "moderate" mosques" preaching sedition against the Queen and Government-something tells me, he doth not protest too much!

The problem is, the UK has 2,000 KNOWM terrorist suspects-it would appear that they need to get to start revising their statutes to either shut down, or start seriously infiltrating these mosques which are STILL breeding grounds for Islamic terrorism! It's amazing, after all that has happened in this country, that these mosques are STILL allowed to preach their politics of hate against the West!

Sheik Murad makes several Quranic citations to indicate that violence is not condoned by Islam, especially violence against innocents. If that is the case, the question remains, why is there so much violence among Muslims? Judging from the historical and current actions of its adherents, Islam is spectacularly violent.

What is the explanation for this apparent contradiction? I do not know the Quran. Perhaps it contains many exhortations to violence and Sheik Murad has "cherry picked" some of the more pacific passages. Or perhaps it truly is a work that promotes peace. If so, why are Muslims so violent?

I Mr. Abdi Aynte live in Kenya. I've being blogger for such long time at Hiiraan.com and many other fasicanting Somali sites.

I do really interest the thoughts that Mr. Abdihakim is sharing with us. I personally a big reader of his articls--and closley follow his view of Islam.

I don't have much to say about his idea.

Cheers..

Abdi Aynte

Sheikh Murad,
Excellent presentation. You are a living proof of Islam's colorful diversity-I can feel a shade of that colorfulness and enrichment when I read your article,style,reasoning and outlook compared to other non-western scholars born into the faith; of course all of you within the bounds of Islam-and yet it is really beautiful.

Just a few points:
// you have not substantiated your opinion that men and women are spiritually different; I think they are equal and have the same human spirituality.
// we can all now agree that GW Bush and Blair did not invade Iraq because Saddam was a dictator: name one Arab democratic ruler?? The Saudis are worse than Saddam with their feudal medieval regime and corruption. The invaders are world dictators because they had no mandate from the international community/UN or from their own people-millions demonstrated against the war especially

Sheikh Murad:

WOW: this is impressive. I can see your blue eyes.

I wish John Reid the "shoe bomber" had met you before he fell in with the fanatics.

Now please tell us what why and how you converted to Islam.

It all sounds very nice, of course. But who can believe anything about Islam, with the rampant practice of taqiyya?

And I really have to wonder why on earth anyone would willingly convert to Islam. Honestly, I'm not at all impressed.

Perhaps you could address some of the issues raised by your fellow travelers here:

The Truth About Islam
http://islamwatchers.blogspot.com

TO; NEVIDATTA;

Kafir is a word of Arabic, means reject,hide etc. Those persons who reject Islam will be called a Kafir means (non-muslim). There is no reasons to get annoyed, if you don't want to be called kafir then there is no other option but you become Muslim. Why? because Islam does not recognized other way of living, Real God cannot confused his creation by giving multiple choice of living, he is One and he gave us One way of living and that is perfect/non contradicts and unchangable applies all the time. In fact you should be happy muslims called you Kafir because you don't like/follow Islam. But you don't want. There is no other word in Arabic language to call non-muslims.

TO; NEVIDATTA;

Kafir is a word of Arabic, means reject,hide etc. Those persons who reject Islam will be called a Kafir means (non-muslim). There is no reasons to get annoyed, if you don't want to be called kafir then there is no other option but you become Muslim. Why? because Islam does not recognized other way of living, Real God cannot confused his creation by giving multiple choice of living, he is One and he gave us One way of living and that is perfect/non contradicts and unchangable applies all the time. In fact you should be happy muslims called you Kafir because you don't like/follow Islam. But you don't want. There is no other word in Arabic language to call non-muslims.

TO; NEVIDATTA;

Kafir is a word of Arabic, means reject,hide etc. Those persons who reject Islam will be called a Kafir means (non-muslim). There is no reasons to get annoyed, if you don't want to be called kafir then there is no other option but you become Muslim. Why? because Islam does not recognized other way of living, Real God cannot confused his creation by giving multiple choice of living, he is One and he gave us One way of living and that is perfect/non contradicts and unchangable applies all the time. In fact you should be happy muslims called you Kafir because you don't like/follow Islam. But you don't want. There is no other word in Arabic language to call non-muslims.

TO; NEVIDATTA;

Kafir is a word of Arabic, means reject,hide etc. Those persons who reject Islam will be called a Kafir means (non-muslim). There is no reasons to get annoyed, if you don't want to be called kafir then there is no other option but you become Muslim. Why? because Islam does not recognized other way of living, Real God cannot confused his creation by giving multiple choice of living, he is One and he gave us One way of living and that is perfect/non contradicts and unchangable applies all the time. In fact you should be happy muslims called you Kafir because you don't like/follow Islam. But you don't want. There is no other word in Arabic language to call non-muslims.

TO; NEVIDATTA;

Kafir is a word of Arabic, means reject,hide etc. Those persons who reject Islam will be called a Kafir means (non-muslim). There is no reasons to get annoyed, if you don't want to be called kafir then there is no other option but you become Muslim. Why? because Islam does not recognized other way of living, Real God cannot confused his creation by giving multiple choice of living, he is One and he gave us One way of living and that is perfect/non contradicts and unchangable applies all the time. In fact you should be happy muslims called you Kafir because you don't like/follow Islam. But you don't want. There is no other word in Arabic language to call non-muslims.

ShafiUddin:

Kafir: One who rejects Islam after knowing it properly

Ghayr Muslim: Non-Muslim

For those who ask Abdul Hakim Murad why it is that there is much violence perpetrated by Muslims today and why there is much radicalism among British Muslims if the positions he states are accurate, I suggest you re-read his article and actually engage with his ideas, especially the section he wrote on religion and gender. Islam has been around for 1400 years, majority Muslim societies stretch from Morocco in the west to Indonesia in the East and Muslim minorities inhabit most countries of the world. Over this history and over this geographical expanse, an enormous variety is to be found--some of which Abdul Hakim Murad referred to in his response. Salafis and Jihadis represent one set of positions, but there are many others. NONE of them have the final and definitive word on what Islam is, not the Jihadis, and not Abd al-Hakim Murad either. Salafis and Jihadis represent a minority position among Muslims, but of course, a radical minority can do a great deal of damage. There are legitimate questions to be asked about the vogue of salafi and jihadi groups today, but you can not point to them and claim to have unmasked the "real" Islam.
We all have religious positions, whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Athiest, or Agnostic (etc.). Ask yourself about your relation to your religion. Do you feel that as a Jew, Buddhist or Atheist you have been programmed to act roboticaly according to the tenets of your faith (or rejection of faith)? Can all the Christians, Mormons, Hindus and Athiests you know be counted on to respond identically to a given situation? If the answer to these two questions is no, then how can you make these sorts of assumptions about Muslims?

to the question above...about why is their so much violence from Muslims these days. I would turn the question back to you - why is their so much violence from contemporary secular/democratic nations of the West:
1) Vietnam (1-3 million dead)
2) Holocaust (6+ million dead, just among Jews)
3) Iraq 630K+ dead, according to scientific estimates
4) countless wars african and middle eastern countries covertly supported by western countries (uncounted milllions dead) just in the last 80 years
5) colonialism (uncounted millions dead)

It's unfair to only blame Muslims for violence. The root of violence is from non-religious virtues: greed, hate, arrogance, oppression and of course fear.

The Quran and many other religions expend quite a bit of time fighting these feelings inside of the Self (the Greater Jihad). On the other hand, i'd put Greed as something part and parcel of capitalism. The greed of oil is why all the wars in the middle east in the last 27 years have been waged. This is why we have allowed 630K iraqis and 3700 thousand of our own soldiers to die.

Name one Muslim country in the last 100 years that has been responsible for a million deaths on it's own (i.e. don't count the Iran-Iraq war of the 80s)?

p.s. I don't mean to single out the West -- contemporary secular non-Western nations such as Russia China, and Japan have blood of millions on their hands as well.

And even India -- it's a stretch but their treatment of Sri Lankans, Sikhs, Muslim minorities have killed many tens of thousands

It is all about the koran---

Words of wisdom:

Gators vs. Muslims-- Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them? e.g. the seven Islamic doctors in the UK.

If one gender is not superior to the other how did men get the power over women that says if their daughter marries to displease them they can kill her. A man can kill his wife if he suspects her of being unfaithful. A wife cannot do this to the husband. Men in islamic countries determine if their wives can leave home and under what conditions. An islamic woman must marry a muslim but a man can marry outside the faith. The constant pressure for a modest life for women but men expose themself. (It has happened to me three times and I am sure I am not the only one) Males are allowed to lie to their wived to shut them up. This faith does not impress me. It reminds me of Latter day Saints who have a similar history and who have revelations to benefit their own wishes. The divergance between stated faith and actual practice of it is what makes so many of us not believe.

One thing is very clear that, though westren world is on extreem of human delvelopment and cultural differences creates problems in humanity, but thinking on both sides prevail same as compare to long long ago,where one trib was on full course verses other to finish each others by all means.

I, ask from all about the "Quran" 'Christanity and Judish cannot become muslims frinds' is yet to deny.

Extremism should be forbidden from both side. Islam teach equality.

- Please do not comment on Hindu apostasy or Buddhist ones, since the terms do not exist in these dharmic traditions.
Perhaps not classically but it can't be denied that the caste system most commonly associated with Hinduism. Scores of Hindus convert out and there have been attempts by lots of extremist Hindus (like the RSS) to curb this trend using legislation and violence. That's almost an exact parallel to apostasy laws seen in some Muslim countries. Extremism is there amongst all kinds of people. Even amongst followers of Dharmic religions.

- If that is the case, the question remains, why is there so much violence among Muslims? Judging from the historical and current actions of its adherents, Islam is spectacularly violent.
You'd have to consider the state of the Muslim society. Most of the countries in it's heartlands have US sponsored dictators, much of it's resources are being siphoned out for prices less than the market value (ARAMCO), muslim countries are (seemingly) randomly attacked (Afghanistan, Iraq), Israel/Palestine where the division is Jew/Muslim. Given that a group (Muslims in this case) is being targeted like this, they tend to get paranoid and some of them will get violent. It happens everywhere. Judging from the historical (Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam etc.) and current (Afghanistan, Iraq, Guantanamo) acts of the United States, one can come to the conclusion that it's one of the most spectacularly arrogant and violently sadistic countries in the world (and this is not the actions of a lunatic fringe as in Islam, it's the elected majority and the official government).

It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!

May Gods peace and blessings be with you as well. Dr. Murad, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. It is a real treat to hear you speak and read your work. May God keep you in the best of health and iman.

Peace be with you

Mubeen

May Gods peace and blessings be with you as well. Dr. Murad, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. It is a real treat to hear you speak and read your work. May God keep you in the best of health and iman.

Peace be with you

Mubeen

To Sheikh Murad,

I am a graduate student at the University of Arkansas, continuing the study of Political Science/Comparative Politics intertwined with Islamic studies.
Recently, I've run across a question I can't quite seem to answer fully enough for the satisfaction of those asking: "why can't the Muslim world respond in one voice?" Apart from the basic Sunni-Shiah divergence, and reminding them that while part of the Muslim world may agree with Bin Laden's 'distaste' of Western norms/policies, a majority disagrees with his Jihad as 1. it is not defensive in nature, and 2. he has no place to declare fatwa as he's not a qualified mujtahid, it is here that I run out of clear answers to satisfy their question.

Please write back soon,

Ma'salemma

To Sheikh Murad,

I am a graduate student at the University of Arkansas, continuing the study of Political Science/Comparative Politics intertwined with Islamic studies.
Recently, I've run across a question I can't quite seem to answer fully enough for the satisfaction of those asking: "why can't the Muslim world respond in one voice?" Apart from the basic Sunni-Shiah divergence, and reminding them that while part of the Muslim world may agree with Bin Laden's 'distaste' of Western norms/policies, a majority disagrees with his Jihad as 1. it is not defensive in nature, and 2. he has no place to declare fatwa as he's not a qualified mujtahid, it is here that I run out of clear answers to satisfy their question.

Please write back soon,

Ma'salemma