All Comments (53)

Parker

The first article of faith:
1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

need i say more?

mark

Thomas Baum:

no argument here..

mark

TO LDS MARK:

Absolutely everything is from God including His Plan which is for not only ALL OF HUMANITY but also for ALL OF CREATION.

God says in the bible, "I give you life, I give you death, I give you blessings, I give you curses", so you see God gives us a choice, FREE WILL, you could call it.

Also God, according to His Plan, is going to declare Victory in favor of the Holy Ones, something to think about.

Another thing, God created satan, satan is a god-wannabe but he is not god and also satan is not nice but can try to come across as mister nice guy and God has his reasons for what He does and He knows what He is doing and the final outcome will be Total Victory.

Take care, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum:
No one has added to the bible, but King James court has certainly subtracted from it where ever it conflicted with their current understanding of the world and their own doctrines.

The books of Abraham were found in a tomb in Egypt, and the book of Mormon is “another testament” of Jesus. Neither are “additions”, but they do improve understanding.

The bible stands as the word of god and the King James Version has the least influence of man in its translation. There are, however some grammatical errors that Joseph Smith corrected. Most of which add clarity and do not change the meanings, but there are some that do, such as “..evil from god..”. That is not possible. It was corrected to “evil not of god”, a simple grammatical error that changed the meaning.

Respectfully,
Mark

TO YACTTB:

I see your point and what you wrote about it saying that in the Old Testament.

Whereas, the New Testament is not adding to the Old Testament but is showing that some of the prophecy of the Old being fulfilled.

As should be obvious, not all of the things prophecised in both the Old and New Testaments have come to Fruition, but they will in due time [God's Time].

God's Plan is for All, Total Victory, not a tie.

Take care, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Parker, if you wouldn't mind, could you email me at apex7073@gmail.com

Thanks...

TO PARKER:

Thank You and God Bless, God's Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum,
Before leaving this genre, I wanted to thank you for your comments. I hope you won't think that LDS belief is that Christ is merely a "representative" for the Father. We believe He was one with the Father in pre-mortal life, was the Creator of this earth and other worlds, was one with the Father when He came to earth as the Son of God, and returned to the Father where He is still one with Him. He prayed in the great intercessory prayer that we could all become "one" with them. (See John 17:20-23) Peace to you, friend.

To the general reader (the few):
Before turning my free-time attention to hymn writing and other pursuits, I wanted to post an insight that has helped me to understand where CCNL may be coming from in his psychology. (I have high need for closure, which is the reason for this post.)

A person with a military background may be expected (not always, but sometimes) to view everyone as "friend or foe" and to make generalizations about those categories. After 9/11, many people in the U.S. seem to have found new enemies, or to have simplified their thinking into new "friend or foe" alignment. For CCNL, the "angellic messenger" seems to have become the "super-foe" against which he has declared a personal war. Anything that touches on that "super-foe" becomes part of the "enemy" camp, and he is going to try to wipe out the enemy (in his mind) by repeated, seemingly endless attacks. Seems like simplistic psychology, but I think that's where CCNL is coming from. He's trying to protect his grandchildren from what he perceives as the "super-foe" that he thinks endangers civilization. Sort of like a new kind of McCarthyism.

These kinds of things are likely to happen in our day. If we can learn to recognize the symptoms, perhaps we can be understanding of where the person is coming from and feel less threatened by such on-the-surface shallow/simplistic thinking, and be amused by the mind game that is going on. Peace, all. I've enjoyed the conversations.

Thomas The Messenger Baum

What do you charge for overnight delivery??

All this bible thumping is severely affecting your brain!!!

sorry, last (anonymous) post was by me

Hello again Thomas,

You asked:

"One thing that I would like to say about the Book of Mormon and the Koran is that in the bible it specifically says do not add or subtract from this book [bible], do you have a comment on this?"

I believe what you are referring to is Revelation 22:18,19 where it says:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

When John the Revelator wrote that, he was referring to his book (Revelation), not the bible for two reasons:

1) The "bible" didn't exist (as we have it today) during the time of his writing Revelation.
2) More importantly, the New Testament is not in chronological order. Revelation is not the last book written as far as time period is concerned. So, if it were described as you suggested, then every book in the New Testament that was written after Revelation should be removed.

Also - I'd like to add that the Old Testament has the same warning - that nothing should be added. If that is truly the case, then the New Testament is void, which we know it is not.

So we must gather that John is only speaking of his book (Revelation) and not something else.

TO CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED:

You wrote, "Thomas, the "wannabee" theologian, Baum,", I have never called myself a theologian, I have called myself a messenger and I am a messenger.

God chose me and I have said YES.

Jesus told us that night is coming and that is the night of the sixth day but the dawning of the seventh day will surely arrive also.

The six days of creation are God days, how long each one lasted only God knows but the seventh day on which God rested, blest and made holy will surely arrive also.

As Jesus said, "My Father has been busy even until now", see how they tie together?

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TO LDS MARK:

Seems to me Jesus said something to the point, "Whomever sins you forgive are forgiven, and whomever sins you retain are retained", of course this means more than it says on the surface as in if we don't forgive others, we are not forgiven and if we retain other's sins when they want to be forgiven, then who retains them?

I can't give you sight but you can ask for it.

You wrote, "Jesus is heavenly father’s representative here on earth. He will return and reign here to continue spreading the word, and in the end only he will decide who can return to heavenly father’s house (Heaven).", you are wrong but no problem because knowing the exact truth is not the important thing, it is living what you know of the Truth.

The God you speak of in the above paragragh seems all too human and petty and nothing at all like the True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God.

As far as 'who can return to heavenly father's house (Heaven)' as you call it, what about "the new heavens and the new earth"?

One thing that I would like to say about the Book of Mormon and the Koran is that in the bible it specifically says do not add or subtract from this book [bible], do you have a comment on this?

It seems to me that means commentary is fine but contradicting is not, does it seem that way to you or something different?

I happen to be mentioned in the bible in quite a few places and it has come as quite a shock to me.

I have been chosen by God and I have said Yes.

You also wrote, "Jesus is heavenly father’s representative here on earth.", in a previous post you wrote, "On your question : “..does the basic belief of the Mormon faith believe that Jesus is True Man and True God?”
From Matt. 9: 6 Son of man hath power on earth. It’s in the bible, and we believe it.", you can't have it both ways, so to speak, either Jesus is merely God's representative or He is TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN.

I am not here to be politically correct and I am also not here to water down christianity, either Jesus is Almighty God in the Flesh or He is a liar, that basically is the choice that He gave us, I am a messenger, God's representative, but Jesus is God, that is what Christianity is all about, God becoming ONE OF US not just sending a representative.

God has a Plan and has had His Plan since before Creation and His Plan will come to Fruition.

God's Plan is for ALL to be in the Kingdom, the 'new heavens and the new earth', exactly what that is, only God know.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

THOMAS BAUM:

Again, your quote from scriptures makes my point;
"I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life no one comes to the Father except thru Me".
Though Jesus is the only way we can return to the father. The statement alone implies 2 beings.

Why “Through” Jesus?
Jesus paid for all our sins, past present and future, (not heavenly father) in the garden before his crucifixion. Therefore only he has the right to forgive us of our sins. No priest on earth, including myself, has the right to forgive sins. Jesus did not give that right to the original apostles, and he did not give it to me or any other holder of a priesthood of divine origin.

Jesus is heavenly father’s representative here on earth. He will return and reign here to continue spreading the word, and in the end only he will decide who can return to heavenly father’s house (Heaven).

Respectfully,
Mark

Thomas, the "wannabee" theologian, Baum,

See http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/210_Place_of_Life i.e. more embellishment of the life of a simple preacher man by John (14:6).

TO LDS MARK:

You wrote, "Jesus replied, "Phillip, how long have you been with Me, if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.

This does not make him the father.", I agree that it doesn't make Jesus the Father but it is one of the ways in the bible that Jesus says to us that He is God.

I have met the Father, He came into my heart and He is a Being of Pure Love, by the way He didn't say a word to me, He didn't have to.

Something that I have said before but I will repeat: I use the pronoun He but God is not a He, a She or an It but is a Being of Love, not a loving Being in other words, Love is not an attribute of God but is His Very Being.

You also wrote, "I don’t believe there are 3 gods either. But, there is a “god-head” of leadership.", I don't for an instant believe that God is a committee but that, even tho God is a Trinity, God is still One, God does say, "I Am One, does He not?

I have met the Trinity and I could give an analogy but that does not explain God being a Trinity, sometimes I wonder why we seem to have to know everything, one of which is: How can God be a Trinity and yet One, do you ever wonder along those lines?

Another thing that Jesus said was, "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life no one comes to the Father except thru Me", notice He did not say to God but to the Father so apparently to get to God the Father you have to go thru Jesus but He didn't say anything about the ways to the Holy Spirit and to Himself, did He?

One more thing Jesus became the Son of God when He became the Son of Man when Mary said Yes, before that He was the Second Person of the Trinity.

It says something to the effect in John, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God", guess what, that "Word" is LOVE.

Take care, be ready, night is coming just like Jesus told us but the dawning of the seventh day will arrive in God's Time.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Johnny Be Goode,

Unfortunately just like the Book of Mormon and its "Moroni-con", the bible is mostly fictitious.

Spouting the fortune telling of Isaiah 9:6 does not make Jesus the one. John the great embellisher tried but by most modern analyses, failed.

e.g.

John 3:16 is a single attestation in the NT and many contemporary NT scholars to include three on the On Faith panel (Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen) have concluded that it was not said by the historical Jesus. It was, they conclude, an addition to embellish the life of Jesus to gain converts/money to/for the cause and to complete the fortune telling of Isaiah.

See added commentary at http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/350_Jesus_to_Nicodemus and in Professor Crossan's book, The Historical Jesus.

You also are noting without realizing it that God is guilty of filicide. Please peruse the following before another outburst.

(from Professor Crossan's book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

The Book of Mormon is fiction. I'll leave it to others to decide whether it is good fiction or bad. I spent years in the LDS church, the Utah sect, and although that does not make me an expert, it gave me a firm background to compare with the Bible. Once the Holy Spirit leads one to understand the three mystery languages of the Bible (symbolic, parabolic, and prophetic) which connect and interact like a decryption device, it is perfectly clear that the Book of Mormon does not tie in. It is also patently ridiculous that Jews sailed to America and became two races of people, and God was never a man from another planet. A full refutation would require a dissertation.

YACTTB:
The Trinity doctrine is Roman Catholic in origin, adopted by the Protestants (those who protested against Catholicism). It is false.

God is a Spirit. When God is manifest as a finite being, He expresses Himself as the Son of God, who was neither created nor born but was always with God and always was God. [Read the opening passage of the book of John in the New Testament.]

BTW God the Father never appeared to Joseph Smith in the likeness of a man, as Mormons believe. God is an infinite Spirit. He has acted in the material creation through the Son of God and angels, but only Jesus Christ has ever seen the father, as he himself declared, and no man shall see God qua God until the Son of God places all power and dominion beneath his feet at the end of his Millinial reign on earth.

The Father and the Son are one in essence, purpose, and Spirit, but not one and the same per se, but consider this passage which I paraphrase for lack of a handy Bible:

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given...and his name shall be called wonderful, counselor, mighty God, our father." Yeah, it's a mystery.

"Let us make man in our image." The God personage in Hebrew is Elohim, which is plural.

Familial adjectives help us to understand the relationships. God the Father, the Son of God, brothers and sisters in Christ, our Mother the church, are descriptive but not literal. There is no familial adjective in the Bible for the Holy Spirit. Mary conceived in her womb by the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit were a separate person from God, then God is Jesus's uncle, say, but not his father.

The best way I can illustrate it is the ideals of the Declaration of Independence, which were manifested concretely as government in the Constitution of the United States, both of which embody the Spirit of Liberty.

Just to show how mysterious the whole matter is, God is a Spirit, who is Holy, and thus a Holy Spirit. There are seven Spirits of God, all of which are Holy, since they are of God. All angels are spiritual creatures, and all holy.

In short, we only know for certain what has been revealed to us by the scriptures in general and Jesus in particular. When we see Jesus, we shall be like him, a whole new creature. "For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then shall we know even as we are known." Until then, a perfect understanding of God is as illusive to our limited minds as astrophysics to a monkey.

LDS Mark and Thomas Baum,

I hope that you both can continue this conversation. I've seen many discussions in the past (a very good one with a blogger by the name of James) regarding the trinity. I did want to point out that while there are many other evidences of God the Father and Jesus the Son being separate and distinct, you may have overlooked something very important in the Genesis verse that you quoted. In Genesis 1:26 it is written (KJV):

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

Notice it says let "us" make man in "our" image and after "our" likeness. There is obviously a plural form here - there is more than one - for it says "us" and "our". So if they were one, this would be an error.

I do enjoy speaking about the gospel and I very much enjoy your conversation. I hope both of you can continue your discussions.

Take religion away and the problem of how to reconcile government and religion goes away. That's the only way to prevent religion form insisting it's law be the law of the land.

Mormons are an exception? You have a big problem making me believe that. And I doubt the historical record shows it's believable either. Didn't Utah attempt to be it's own country on just that basis -the 'already' established law of the land that was also the law of Mormon?

It was the Devil Lucifer, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul that Joseph Smith made the deal with just like Moses. Old Joe understood that the big money comes to those leading the multitudes to hell. Mormons are just as big a bunch of suckers as the rest, buying themselves tickets to hell by paying Lucifer's fee to His representatives.

All sacred scriptures were written by people intending to profit from their use. Religion is the great enemy of democracy. Those rules apply equally well to Mormons.

Says Brother Otterson: "..we do not believe that any religious society has authority to .... to inflict any physical punishment upon them."

How about Mormons electroshocking gay members to "cure' them? This conveniently isn't regarded as physical punishment?

Hillary Clinton is Now A-ECLATi-ON-PRINCESS & no more a METHODIST QUEEN!:

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>))))2)0)0)8))))) "NO-SHARIA!"
!
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[ ?: +) http:///\ VOTE http://\Hillary )
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[ ?: +) http:///\ VOTO http://\Hillary )
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PEACE, PAZ, SALAAM, SHOLOM:........______________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton МИР,평화, 和平:

VOTE:

NO Sharia!
NO Hallakha!
NO Monarchi!
NO Nepotism!
NO Theocracy!
NO Caste System(s)!
MORE Protection For Kids!
NO Putting Down Woman Anywhere!
NO Rule By BiBLES, GiTA, KANGYUR, QURAN et al!

MODERN MORALiTY iS SUPERIOR to Biblical MORALITY!

Parker,

Morona, my personal horn/whistle blower, thanks you but she still is going to report you to the FCC for a promoting a false religion.

Concerned the Christian Now Liberated,
I stand corrected. I appreciate your having shared more about yourself, and your having served our country for which I owe you a debt of gratitude. My son was sitting in a meeting several years ago when 30 or more men and women stood when asked who had served our country in the military; he was inspired by their example, and subsequently joined the National Guard. This is more of the stuff of life that makes it meaningful and gratifying. His Iraq experience has been positive.

'Happy to know of your successful marriage and role as a grandfather--noble roles indeed. I wish you well in those. (I would enjoy knowing more about you.)

LDS Mark,
I also thank you deeply for your son's service to our country, and hope he is on the mend. Thanks for your insights here, and the personal glimpses and warmth of your delivery--an example to me and others.

LDS Mark,

Read the bible? Who in the western world has not? And your conclusions about what Jesus did or did not do typically fail the tests of attestations and timing.

And noting your statement, "Mormonism, on the other hand is a return to what Jesus originally taught along with the guidance of Jesus himself through modern prophets. The book of Mormon, as it’s subtitle states, is another testament of Jesus Christ. It supports and gives credence to the bible. It does not replace it."

It should read:

Mormonism is a con played on the superstitious minds of uneducated immigrants in the 1800's by one Joe "Con Man" Smith. The modern Mormon prophets are simply fortune tellers out to protect their cozy jobs. The book of Mormon is another farse that anyone could write. Who told me that? Morona, the pretty thingie and sister of the "angel" Moroni. Hey if Joey can have his private "angel" then we all can our own "horn/whistle blowers".

I am Morona and I approved this message!!!!!

CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED

It appears that you are caught up in a classic dilemma.
That is, wither to believe the bible or the religious theologians.

The major problems with most religions today, as in the dark ages, is they are rife with “doctrines of man” designed for political control of the people, all written by these same theologians. This is the reason there are all these splinter groups that broke away from Christianity because they knew their doctrines were of man and not god. The problem with these splinter groups is although they were correct in their reasons for breaking away; they also generated more of their own doctrines of man. My past Hutterite example is one case in point. Don’t get me wrong, these splinter groups are all good people and god loves them (as do I), they are just a little off course.

You are obviously tired of conflicting doctrines of man.
Your problem is also that you too are following doctrines of man in all of your statements. They are designed (the doctrines) to be justifiable by using truths mixed with lies and assumptions which, as Jesus said, are the worst kind of lies.

As an example, are there angels? The bible says there are. Do we have guardian angles? That is a catholic invention, or just another doctrine of man.

Another example; Jesus set up the priesthood of apostles and none of them were above anyone. They are on a par with the people or the world. The office of a Pope was an invention of emperor Constantine of the “Holy Roman Empire” (wink-wink). He did this to gain more control over the people. He also invented baptism of children, again for political control of the people. Both of these examples are contradictory to that Jesus taught. It’s in the bible. You should read it some time.

Mormonism, on the other hand is a return to what Jesus originally taught along with the guidance of Jesus himself through modern prophets. The book of Mormon, as it’s subtitle states, is another testament of Jesus Christ. It supports and gives credence to the bible. It does not replace it.

I hope you will give these things some serious thought.

PARKER:

I hope to continue scripture discussion with any takers, yourself included.
I find the debate to be educational as it gets me digging further into the scriptures.
I also know how you feel. I have a son in a military hospital in Baghdad with shrapnel wounds. He will come home with a bronze star and 2 purple hearts. He fights for his country and it’s freedoms just like your son.
Thanks for your support!

Respectfully,
mark

Parker, Parker, Parker,

Nope, not a sad and lonely person!!!! Happily married for 38 years with lots of friends, kids and grandkids.

And I served my country well in the US military so I earned my right to speak out about the flaws of religion to include the flaws in Islam which cause us to still be in Iraq. Do some serious thinking about that next time you accept the "angelic" connections to Muslims, Christians, Mormons and Jews. If we could get rid of the Gabriel connection, Islam would crumble and we would be out of Iraq in the beat of the wing of "pretty thingie".

This is a very sad and lonely person, with nothing good to say about anyone in the world. I have a son in Iraq defending the rights of free speech of such a person as this--how ironic is that? I just shake my head. I guess staying at a computer, away from real people, is as good a place as any for such a person whose every interaction is negative. (Sorry, anonymous--I look forward to another delightful conversation between LDS Mark and Mr. Baum, or to hear of Carol's quest.) Thanks again to the latter three.

LDS Mark,

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinkerer" got around).

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm

"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinker bells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

Ok, Moroni was a "pretty talking fictional thingie" or would a better description be "one of the many hallucinations seen by founders of the major religions" or " a clone of the fictional Gabriel" or "Moroni the golden hornblower", or "son of Mormon, the propheteer/profiteer", or "actually Nephi", or "good buds with John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Elijah, and Elias all who ministered to Joseph Smith as angels" or as per wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Moroni

"Some scholars have theorized that Smith became familiar with the name "Moroni" through his study of the treasure-hunting stories of Captain William Kidd.[2] Because Kidd was said to have buried treasure in the Comoros islands, and Moroni is the name of the capital city and largest settlement in the Comoros, it has been suggested that Smith borrowed the name of the settlement and applied it to the angel who led him to buried treasure—the golden plates. Complementing this proposal is the theory that Smith borrowed the names of the Comoros islands and applied them to hill where he found the golden plates, which he named Cumorah.[3]

With the "ptfft" i.e Moroni and Joe Smith as the "spiritual" guides/founders, what does one conclude about Mormonism???

A cult based on hallucinations which has bought respectability with a $30 billion business empire, the BYU "mission matured" football team and a great choir.

With the "pwfft" i.e. Gabriel and the "warmongering, womanizing, "stenchifying" hallucinator" aka Mohammed what does one conclude about Islam?

A cult based on the oil profits, terror, fear of the sword, stoning, hand chopping and suicide bombers.

With the "pwfft" i.e. Gabriel and the illiterate peasant, possible mamzer, hallucinating and embellished Jesus what does one conclude about Catholicism/Christianity?

A cult based on the fear of hell, guilt trips, the sin of myths, limbo, and the false promises of sin atonement, "miracles", water purification, indulgences and the only key to the spirit state of Heaven.

With "avenging pwtfft"s, and the mostly mythical OT and its "fortune tellers" what does one conclude about Judaism?

A cult based on the support of its rich members, the fear of Hell, the promise of a messiah and the return to the mythical promised land conquered previously by mythical OT characters.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

please expand on that one...

mark

LDS Mark,

Mormonism is severely flawed is the point.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

what's your point?

mark

Thomas and LDS Mark,

Hmmm, "bible-con" thumper vs. "Mormon-con" thumper. Interesting!!!

It is also interesting that the passages you cite are all embellishments of the life of one simple preacher man by the likes of "Prude" Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

e.g. Matt 28: 16-20,

from: Gerd Lüdemann http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/018_Revealed_to_Disciples

Matt 28:16-20 The description of Jesus's appearance is minimal, as attention is focused on the content of Jesus' message to the Eleven. Lüdemann notes that "the historical yield is extremely meager." He accepts the early tradition that various disciples had visionary experiences, most probably located in Galilee, and that these experiences led to the founding of "a community which preached the resurrection and exaltation of Jesus as the Messiah and/or the Son of Man among their Jewish contemporaries." [Jesus, 255f.

See also 1. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/139_Jesus_Tempted_Thrice

2. tektonics.org/jesusclaims/sonofman.html

And to paraphrase a comment by Karen Armstrong, "Are we all not sons and daughters of man (and woman)??

Thomas Baum

Again you have some very good comments.

Jesus replied, "Phillip, how long have you been with Me, if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.

This does not make him the father.

If you are following your paternal father’s lead and laws in your life, cannot you say the same thing to one of your friends even though your father is not present? One must ask ones self on this one, am I following the letter of the bible or the spirit of the bible? ;o)

I don’t believe there are 3 gods either. But, there is a “god-head” of leadership. Jesus himself says he has a father in heaven and his father is our father as well. We are just not a perfect as Jesus; we only aspire to that level of perfection. And, trust me, I am far from it.
Just like in most countries. There is only one government, with many leaders. The godhead is of the same configuration but not as flawed.

Your statement “Also in Genesis it says, "Let Us make man in Our Image.", it doesn't say, Let Me".” makes my point. The godhead is a leadership, not a single entity.

Again you are right about people setting their own dogma and beliefs. And again it is one of the reasons I am a Mormon. I got tired of all the “religions of man” writing their own dogma, doctrines, laws, whatever. Mormonism is refreshing in that all, and I repeat ALL of our beliefs are from the leadership of Jesus’ revelations. Some people don’t believe that, but if they were to investigate it with an open mind, and pray to Jesus for direction on what the truth is, they would come to understand.
As in the epistle of James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.”

Trust me, he will answer your questions one way or another depending upon your needs and what he sees as is best for you.

Don’t believe me, believe Jesus, for he is the truth.

I look forward to meeting you in the kingdom of heaven. In the mean time, let us continue to discuss his scriptures for that is what he wants us to do.

respectfully,
mark

TO LDS MARK:

You wrote, "From Matt. 4: 3 “..thou be the Son of God..” and Ps. 2: 7 “Thou art my Son”. They are not one person or one spirit, they are God the Father & God the Son (John 3: 16), and God The Holy Spirit, a governing body, not one entity. From Matt. 28: 19 Cleary 3 separate entities."

I would like to make a comment about what you wrote.

When Phillip asked Jesus to "show us the Father", Jesus replied, "Phillip, how long have you been with Me, if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father", Another place Jesus said, "I and the Father are One", at Jesus's baptism a voice came, the dove came to let John know Who Jesus was and there was Jesus.

I do not believe that there are three gods but that God is a Trinity of One just because it is beyond my understanding how that can be doesn't bother me but I have met the members of the Trinity.

Also when I write that God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, I mean it.

Some people seem to think that if they have the right set of beliefs, the right dogma or as some put it the 'right religion' then they are set.

God is a Being of Pure Love and we [humanity] are made in His Image, if Love shines thru us then we are living up to the Image we are made in and if Love is not shining thru us then we aren't.

Also in Genesis it says, "Let Us make man in Our Image.", it doesn't say, Let Me".

God has a Plan and has had His Plan since before creation and His Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum

Thank you for a respectful set of questions. They are very good ones that I hope I can answer effectively.

Your reference: Spirit of Jesus’ law vs. the letter of Jesus’ law.
You are right. I guess that you could chalk my comment up to a poor choice of words. The spirit of Jesus’ laws is what the LDS church follows if it weren’t, I wouldn’t be a Mormon.

On your question : “..does the basic belief of the Mormon faith believe that Jesus is True Man and True God?”
From Matt. 9: 6 Son of man hath power on earth. It’s in the bible, and we believe it.

Your statement: “Just as God is a Trinity and God is One”. Sorry, that one is not in the bible. It came from a creed of political compromise between non-prophets of god, and therefore is a doctrine of man, not god.
From Matt. 4: 3 “..thou be the Son of God..” and Ps. 2: 7 “Thou art my Son”. They are not one person or one spirit, they are God the Father & God the Son (John 3: 16), and God The Holy Spirit, a governing body, not one entity. From Matt. 28: 19 Cleary 3 separate entities.

When you said “but one and many seem to tear out what they don't like.” You are so right. It is one of the main problems with most religions including the Catholics, a faith I abandoned for that very reason. We call them “religions of convenience”. They only follow what is convenient and ignore what is an imposition. I have a friend who is the spiritual leader of a local Hutterite colony. Hutterites are Ana-Baptists. They are right about baptism, but his colony doesn’t believe the law of fasting, even though it is in the very bible they follow (King James). They are good people and I respect them and the reasons Jacob Hutter broke away from Catholicism, but theirs is just another “faith of convenience”.

You are also right that everything Jesus has done through the ages is “complementary”.

Mark.

The soul-cry of sadness and loneliness brings to mind many images. I feel badly for the circumstances that have wrought such sadness and despair in a person of worth. I think often as I read "On Faith" of Gray's "Elegy in a Country Churchyard". But there is hope in the midst of all of this despair. And there are millions upon millions of good people the world over, who are living by the best light that they know. For that I am profoundly grateful.

Parker, Parker, Parker,

So "Mormon-con" and "Moroni-con" are also the embodiments of Islam plus an added updated "pretty thingie" and a reworked koran called the "boo-boo" of Mormon?

Carol,
One more interesting thing I heard recently. I heard that the translation of the Book of Mormon into Arabic was a very fluid, "this makes so much sense" project because the sentence structures matched Arabic language patterns so consistently. There is Hebraic poetry also throughout the Book of Mormon. These are fascinating story lines for me, but what I like most about the Book of Mormon is its teachings and doctrines and that the more one reads it (with a sincere heart), the more one gleans from it.

Carol,
I enjoyed your comment. It is becoming evident that the anonymous advice from earlier was astute advice, though I sense some of us use such comments as a starting point (a foil) for teaching others who might be sincere readers. I found an interesting article on the Arabic word sources of Moroni and Comoros Islands, here:
http://www.nephiproject.com/Moroni's%20Harbor.htm

Also, it is made abundantly clear in the Book of Mormon that many out-migrations of peoples of the House of Israel occurred from both the Middle East and from the New World. Similar word roots could be found in very distinct locations in the world, and that would be consistent with the Book of Mormon.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and best wishes to you and your family.

Carol,

It all goes back to the fictional "pretty thingie", the "Moroni-con". Without Moroni, Mormonism is a nothing more than "Mormon-con" just as Islam without Gabriel is nothing more than "Islam-con".

And the mating of "pretty thingies" with men?? Weird and forbidden as homosexuality in the land of "Mormon-con". And what "pretty thingie" shared a body with the weird Joey the Con Man Smith??/

And by the way the biblical Adam was some fictional figment of some Jewish scribe's mind. Two fictional characters do not make a hominid but simply just more fiction.

I don't get you, Concerned:

Why does the Mormon belief that Michael the Archangel was Adam strike you as any weirder than the assertion by other churches that Michael the Archangel was NOT Adam...?

You don't BELIEVE in those pretty, wingie, fairie things in the first place!

It seems to me that the Mormon assertion that angels and men are the spiritual and physical versions of the same person would show that Mormons DO NOT believe in flying pretty wingie thingies at all, but just ordinary spiritual beings that look like you or me, on different sides of mortality....

Parker, Parker, Parker,

How can you possibly believe in this "Mormon-con" knowing the history of the "Moroni-con"!!!!!! One could say you are possessed by satans aka a demons of the demented. But since they also are fictional characters, there is only one answer i.e. you were Bred, Born and Brainwashed in "Mormon-con". There are Five Step Recovery Programs for this. Any interest???

Anonymous,
Thanks for your kind comment. It made my day.

Sorry I tried the sarcasm approach in an attempt to get the stranger in the room to do some reading and thinking. A glimmer of hope for some tiny change of heart was what led to that attempt, but you're right--I should give up.

I love and marvel at the teachings of Joseph Smith. They are still a beacon of light for our time, as they were for his time. Best to all in reading, thinking, and growing through the many truths around us in our day.

TO LDS MARK:

You wrote, " It is nice to be a member of a church that does not take the bible out of context for its own political purposes, but rather follows it TO THE LETTER and does not ignore what is inconvenient.".

Jesus seemed to be more interested in the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

I would like to ask you a question, does the basic belief of the Mormon faith believe that Jesus is True Man and True God?

Because if it doesn't, it is a false belief but as I have said many times: God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

Also it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.

Just as God is a Trinity and God is One, well the bible is lots of chapters [books to some] but one and many seem to tear out what they don't like.

Jesus said and did lots of things and they are complementary not contradictory.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Reading the whole document (see link provided):

To me verse 5 places freedom of conscience above government laws. And government laws above church laws. All must allow freedom of conscience. Verse 12 states that slaves are not to receive the gospel. Slaves do not receive freedom of conscience. The philosophy behind this declaration is dated, a fabrication of its time. One thing William Wilberforce, an evangelist, did to help free slaves was to baptize them. To him, a Christian could not own another Christian.

All of that was in the 1830s’ Slavery Abolition Act in 1833 (British) and LDS Declaration of Belief 1835.

What about now……

Freedom of conscience for gays and equal rights ammendemnts for women. I think we have a way to go before freedom of conscience is available for everyone.

5 We believe that all men are bound to asustain and uphold the respective bgovernments in which they reside, while protected in their inherent and inalienable rights by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and crebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience.

12 We believe it just to apreach the gospel to the nations of the earth, and warn the righteous to save themselves from the corruption of the world; but we do not believe it right to interfere with bbond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor to meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men; such interference we believe to be unlawful and unjust, and dangerous to the peace of every government allowing human beings to be held in cservitude.

Mark, Mark, Mark,

Hmmm, so you follow the bible literally??? And how are those "pretty, wingie, talking, flying, thingies aka angels, fairies and tinkerbells or their ugly counterparts, the demons of the demented?

Moroni and his sister Morona (made her up just like Joe did for the "Moroni-con") are two of my favorite "pretty thingies". How about you?? I don't see them mentioned in the bible though.

Hmmm, and the angel connection does not stop with the M&M's -"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

And you quit Catholicism to join this cult??? Must be some money involved to leave B16 and his all male chorus.

And are you in the running for "Mormon-con's" next "profit"????

CCNL sure is a basher...
Too bad he hasn’t done his home work.

Brother Otterson,
I think your quotes on church position are short, sweet, and to the point. They also reaffirm my opinion on how the LDS church is so correct about what they do that they scare people into bashing the church. (They can’t stand the correctness).
It makes me glad I walked away from Catholicism and became a Mormon. It is nice to be a member of a church that does not take the bible out of context for its own political purposes, but rather follows it TO THE LETTER and does not ignore what is inconvenient.

Mark

Parker, Parker, Parker,

Actually it is "the pretty wingie thingie" Morona who guides my every step so how can I possibly be wrong about all the "Mormon-con".