All Comments (93)

http://www.nowscape.com/mormon/hitler_temple_3.htm

Do you MORMONS still baptise dead Jews by proxy even though you promised us you wouldn't and have broken that promise many times over???

Do your "members" have to bow down like this to all visiting "general authorities"? Sounds like brainwashing...
THE CHURCH OF
JESUS CHRIST
OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

p.1

*** **** STAKE

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
**** *, 2008

We extend a warm invitation to each of you, along with friends and neighbors, to attend the
*** Stake Conference on Saturday, **** **th and Sunday, **** **th. We
are grateful to have President Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the
Twelve Apostles. presiding over the Conference.
All meetings will be held in the stake center at **** *****, ****. The
general session of Stake Conference will begin at 10:00 a.m. on Sunday ****. A Priesthood leadership session will be held Saturday afternoon at 4:00 p.m. and
the Saturday evening session for all adults 18 years of age and older will begin at 7:00
p.m. We hope you will also join us at the Temple on Friday, **** **th for a chapel
session commencing at 6:30 p.m., followed by an endowment session at 7:00 p.m.
We invite you to prepare for Conference with your family by focusing on the following two
topics in family home evenings prior to Conference: (1) "His word ye shall receive, ·as if
from mine own mouth" (see D&C 21:1 - 6) ; and (2) "1made this my rule ; when the Lord
commands, do it." (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith). Suggested
lesson materials accompany this letter.
The doctrine of conferences, simply stated, is that the Lord has chosen conferences as the
forum to conduct His official business and reveal His will. We should attend conference
seeking personal revelation about our needs, both for ourselves and for our families .
Those needs may be spiritual or temporal, or both, for they are the same in the eyes of the
Lord.
If we do not attend conference we forfeit the privilege and right to receive the personal
revelation we otherwise could receive. When we attend conference with faith we are
saying: "I believe the Lord will help me. I will listen and receive His direction and help."
We encourage you to participate in Conference with open minds and humble hearts,
hungering and thirsting for answers from heaven. We promise that as you do so, you will
be filled!

Sincerely,

***Stake presidency

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Sustaining Church Leaders
Objective: Instill a respect for church leadership posiUons and those who hold them.
Understand that as members of the church we commit to support and sustain those who hold
leadership positions and priesthood keys
Opening Song: "We Thank Thee, a God, For A Prophet' Hymns pg 19
Scripture: D&C' 21:4" "Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words
and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness
before me: For his word ye shall received, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.
For by doing these th ings the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God
will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your
good, and his name' s glory.'
Lesson:
We sustain many decisions in the Church , but most often we are asked to sustain the callings of
Church leaders. Once 'we have acknowledged our support and approval, we should continue to
sustain our leaders, We can do this by supporting their decisions, remembering them in our
prayers, following their counsel, and willingly doing what they ask us to do. President Gordon B.
Hinckley has taught: "The procedure of sustaining is much more than a ritualistic raising of the
hand. It is a commitment to uphold, to support, to assist those who have been selected" (in
Conference Report, Apr. 1995,70; or Ensign, May 1995, 51).
We can have confidence in our Church leaders because we know that important callings are
directed by the Holy 'Spirit (see.D&C 52:1). Those in positions of leadership are not placed there
to exerdse authority but to'direct with kindness and serve with love. The Lord expects us to follow
and uphold His chosen leaders because they are authorized 10 act and speak for Him (see D&C
1:38).
Relate the following story by Elder Boyd K Packer and ask family members what it teaches about
authority.
On one occasion he [Karl G Maeser] was going with a group of young missionaries across the'
alps. They were crossing a high mountain pass on foot. There were long sticks stuck into the
snow of the glacier to mark the path so that travelers could find their way safely across the glacier
and down the mountain: on the other side.
"When they reached the summit, Brother Maeser wanted to leach the young elders a lesson. He
stopped at the pinnacle of the mountain and pointed to those sticks that they had followed . And
he said. 'Brethren , behold the priesthood of God. They are just common old sticks. but it's the
position that counts. Follow them and you will surely be safe. Stray from them and you will surely
be lost:' And so it is in the Church. We are called to leadership positions and given the power of
. the priesthood. And 'we are just common old sticks. but the position we are given counts. It is
separate and apart from us.. but while we.hold it, we hold it." (" It Is the Position That Counts," New
Era, June 1977, p. 51 .)
Discuss with your family whether we are obligated to respect the authority of someone we do not
like as a person. As you discuss this question, help your family recognize that our leaders, who
are not perfect, will be more successful when we respect and support them. Talking against them
and failing to sustain them only makes them less effective.

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Tell the following story
Bcother Taylor was a shy man. He had a strong testimony of the gospel, but he was not very
confident about discussing it with others. He had never finished high school and felt embarrassed
that his knowledge of the scriptures was lacking He was assigned as home teacher to several
families. He visited them faithfuily every month and made extra visits at birthdays, In times of
illness, and whenever he felt he could be of help.
Then Brother Taylor was assigned tovisit a new family in the ward. After his first visit, the family
discussed their new home teacher.
"What a strange man,' remarked Sister Brown.
:'Yes," laughed the oldest son. "I thought I'd die when he kept mispronouncing words in that
scripture he read,'"
"I can even read better than that," added nine-year-old Susan.
"I doubt we can expect much help from him,' concluded Brother Brown.
Ask the following questions:
• • How will this family's attitude weaken Brother Taylor as a home teacher?
• • What are some ways they could sustain him that would also strengthen him?
Discuss possible ways of handling the following situations:
• 1. Your parents have asked you not to do something that you want to do very mUCh. They
think it is unsafe,but many of your friends have done it.
• 2. You do not enjoy your present. priesthood adviser. He is l1ever well prepared and is not
an interesting teacher.
• 3. Your new bishop isn't easy to talk to. You wish he were more like your former bishop
who was friendly to everyone.
("Authority," Family Home Evening Resource Book, (1997, 175)
Activity 1: Gather 15 paper cups. On five cups write members of the church. Line them up in a
row. On four cups write auxiliary leaders (RS Pres., YM Pres., Primary Pres., Elders Quorum
Pres., etc.). Stack those cups on the 1" five (like a pyramid). On three cups write the BishopriC.
Stack those on the four cups. On two cups write Stake Presidency. Stack those on the 3 cups.
On the last cup write The Prophet, Apostles and other General Authorities. Stack that cup on top
Discuss how the leaders at the. top need the support of those below them to be successful. Show
that the pyramid of cups falls when the supporting cups are removed.
Activity 2: Choose a leader from your ward or stake and write them a note thanking them for all
the work they do to help gUide and lead your ward/stake.

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Faith To Obey
"I made this my rule; when the Lord commands, do it" Joseph Smith

Purpose:
To help our family understand that when we have faith and obey the Lord's commands, we show our love for Him. In
return, He will protect and help us accomplish all that is asked.
Song
"Keep the Commandments' (Child ren's Songbook p. 146 and Hymnal #303)
Scripture Mastery Thoughts:
• Alma 57 : 21 : Yea. and they did 'obey and observe to perform every word of command with exactness; yea.
and even according to their faith it was done unto them; and I did remember the words which they said unto
me that their "mothers had taught them.
• D&C 132: 53: For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that
he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been "faithfUl over a few things, and from hencefol lh I
will strengthen him.
• ObEldience is the most genuine way to show our love for God. (Howard W. Hunter)
Opening Prayer:
Activity:
Hide 16 small stones somewhere in the room, wrap each in a clue to find the next stone. Make sure the stones are not
easily visible and require help in order to find. Note: If you don't have time to create the clues. another option would
be to take turns hiding a stone and letting the person who hid the stone (or stones) answer yes or no questions about
where the stone is hidden.
Lesson:
Wnat did we have to do in order to find the stones? We needed to have fa ith that the clues that were given would help
us find the stones. We also needed to take action on our part and obey/follow the directions in order to reach our goal
of finding all the stones.
~(Ether 3:4-13):
Have the family sit in a circle and place all 16 stones they found in the center of the circle.
Ask your family: "Do you know another reason why we found these 16 stones tonight?"
There is a special story in Ether that also talked about 16 stones. Jared and his brother were very righteous. but they
lived at a time of great wickedness. When they sought the Lord for gUidance. the Lord told them He desired to send
them to a new la'nd of promise. That land is now called America. The brother of Jared had faith and chose to obey the
Lord. He gathered his family and his friends. They took their ftocks, birds, fish, honeybees, and seeds of every kind.
After they had traveled for four years, the Lord came in a cloud and talked to the brother of Jared. The Lord told the
brother of Jared that he needed to humble himself and pray. So Jared listened again and obeyed. The Lord then told
the brother of Jared to build eight boats (like submarines) for their journey to the promised land. He gave them
instructions to make the boats small and l i gh~. After the boats were finished , though, the brother of Jared was
concerned because there was no light in the boats. The brother of Jared had enough faith to bring 16 small stones to
the Lord. He asked the Lord to touch the stones with his finger and make them shine. Because of his great faith, the
brother of Jared was blessed and he saw the finger of the Lord as he touched the stones. The Lord then blessed him
again and showed him his whole body, teaching hilT: that we are each created in the image of God. The brother of
Jared then obeyed and placed the stones in each of the barges. With the Lord's help, 344 days later (almost a Whole
year) they reached the promised land.

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Conclusion:

Faith requires action on our part. The Lord answered the brother of Jared's prayer.after he had obeyed the Lord by
building eight boats and prepared to follow the Lord's command to travel to the promised land. The brother of Jared
also showed his faith by providing the stones and asking the Lord to touch each one.
How can we liken this to our family?
1. Make a list of some of the commands the Lord asks us to do. (pay our tithing. missionary work, be honest, strive to
learn and develop our talents, serve others, Temple work... )
2. Choose onE and then decide an action you need to take in order to obey the Lord's command. Set a goal this week
to do that action and commit to pray to ask for our Father in Heaven's help as you strive to do His will.
T he~e are many voices telling us what to do each day. We need to remember to ask our Father in Heaven for help as
we set goals and make decisions. As we read his instructions in the scriptures and lislen for promptings from the Holy
Ghost, then obey in faith, we will be guided and protected as we journey through this life.
As we obey the Lord's commands and have faith we can be like the stones in the story. The Lord will touch us and
help us radiate the light of the'gospel. We will find grea:er joy and happiness in our lives as VIe ask for direction and
obey the Lord 's will for us in faith. If we fo llow Him in fa ith, we can be assured that he will protect and help us, (Note:
For smaller children explain this principle of happiness through obedience in terms they can understand, like how
happy they feel when they obey their parents and then receiving a big hug.) There is joy in doing what the Lord asks
us to do.
Closing Prayer
Dessert: Banana Boat Sundaes. Remind your family of the story of Jared building boats by creating your own
banana boat ice cream sundaes for dessert. If you have time put 16 yellow M&M's on each to remind you of the
lighted stones.

Parker,

Sometime when you are not thumping the OT, NT and Book of Mormon, you might want to read about the real Jesus as analyzed by contemporary NT exegetes who have scrutinzed all the pertinent scripture documents from the first and second century CE.

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/215_In_Capernaums_Synagogue

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

And keep in mind, the John who wrote John's gospel was not John the Apostle but was a big fan of Jesus and could be considered The Great Embellisher of said Jesus in his Project, Raising to Diety Status or Fad Out Fast!!!!

Henry,
Thanks for your kind and thoughtful reply. I think Dr. Willard is actually still every bit as pleased to count you among his posterity as when you were a youth, what with the love of people and of great literary truths you have and inspire others with. We don't all have to plow the same ground to find treasures worth having and worth sharing. Kudos to you. I'll look for that book.

Concerned,
Christ veiled many of His messages in meanings that some didn't understand, and He did so deliberately, allowing a learning process that is "precept upon precept, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." (Isaiah 28:13) Always, he "taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes." (Matthew 7:29) He still and always says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3:20) How can we "sup"? By learning from Him, and hearkening "diligently" unto Him (Isaiah 55). But we have to be willing to learn--He most certainly will not force knowledge on us in any way (unlike what is often done in the name of teaching or attempting to). His light "shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:5) It will ever be so. We can go towards the light, or we can choose not to. The choice is yours.

ItTakesFaith:

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I believe your experience is very common among a great many people.

I expect you're a great neighbor to have around.

Good luck on your journey!

sorry last post is mine forgot to put that in.

Jeff p- Thank you for the response and I don't take that as an insult. I agree that anyone can live a decent meaningful life outside the context of anything. Just like there are those in who do not. That is what is wrong with our Mormon culture especially in Utah. Many of my fellow Mormons tend to separate themselves from everyone else. Even within the church there is separation or clicks like you have in high school. And they are very damaging. They are in direct opposition to the gospel I have been taught. But as people have weaknesses you will find them.
The last place I lived did not have that same Utah Mormon culture. It was great. a neighbors house burned down one night and I am not sure of their religious affiliation or anything because it didnt mater. Everyone reached out and helped. My friends baby drowned and the reponse from the community was incredible it was from everyone not one group alone.
On the other hand I had many neighbors who wouldn't associated with us because we went to church. It didn't matter what church. It was a great showing of that weakness in us all when because we don't believe as someone else we think we are better and don't associate with them. Many of these neighbors where good people and distinct in their own way yet sadly had the same group mentality you spoke of.
The mentality in that state among that few was incredible. It must be how it feels being a non believer in Utah. I don't mean to bash non religious people because it is certainly a weakness suffered by all but my experience with that group in the last place I lived was by far the worst of any place I have lived.

From my observation there are groupings everywhere. Among religions, groups, etc. They are all damaging when they single themselves out and separate from everyone else. I don't think the cause of this separation is caused by being religious or what ever but because it is a human weakness. I have been among a group of Mormons that lived the gospel yet were not separated from the community. It is because they lived the gospel and most respected them for that. They were part of the community not a group that only helped them selves.

Hi Parker

thanks for the interesting response.

i certainly believe in learning and progression in this world. though i never got much better at writing plays.

if i believed in a Next World, I would definitely agree that we would have MUCH more room for progression. for one thing, we'd have infinitely more time.

on the Authority point, have you read The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels? She talks about the disputes in early christianity about who had authority to baptise etc, and those who thought that one could have a direct relationship with God without the intervention of the Priest. kinda like Luther argued 1400 years later. You might find it interesting.

cheers,
Henry

(Dr Willard never liked me)

Parker,

Hmmm, you noted: "Christ said are you willing to learn?"

Scripture reference(s)????? Or is that something Moroni "dropped" on you?? Sounds more like something that the original hominids would say as they were dropping from the trees 60,000 years ago. https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

Henry,
Thanks for all of your thoughts, and the many truths they contain. If you happened to believe in the Biblical example of Namaan, who didn't want to bathe in the River Jordan to be healed, but finally agreed when he could understand the logic of it, then imagine this:

A Hottentot who was an accomplished doctor comes to the United States and wants to begin to practice medicine. Does he/she or does he/she not need a license? But they are eminently qualified! Couldn't they bypass the system? What if they say, "no way--not a fair system"? Such a simple requirement--most would comply, no? How is saying "You've done so much marvelous good with your life, with what you knew and how you loved people and helped them improve their lives; will you enter a covenant relationship with Christ who can help you reach even higher levels of knowledge and love for others?" Some might say, "I don't know about any of that." Christ asks, "Are you willing to learn?"

Some may not be, but I think most would and will be. We're just talking about entering a new phase of learning, without all the mish-mash of half-truths and speculations. Take Mormonism out of the equation, and insert the above. The question of "license" or "authority" doesn't take away someone's identity--it only adds to their identity, and says, "You've done great things. Here ahead of you are infinitely greater things for you to learn about and participate in." More of that will happen in the spirit world than in this life, not detracting from anything anyone has done to improve this world, just adding to it.

PS to Parker and Kurt and Jim

the Mormons are the same as the Catholics and the Muslims in believing that their church is the Only True Way to the highest salvation.

I don't mean to single the Mormons out in this regard. About a third of the world has this kind of belief.

Who knows who's right?
the only thing we know is
Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, and Me can't ALL be right.

Some of us (except me of course) have to be wrong.

hi parker

let me try to be clear:
Mormons believe that in the afterlife, only those who have been baptized by a priesthood holder can enter the CK.

I am fine with anyone who wants to believing that. Kurt and Jim don't seem to acknowledge that this is what Mormonism is based on as basic doctrine.

I am not trying to convince them or you not to believe it. I am just trying to get them to admit that they DO believe it.

I can see the reasonableness of limiting the authority of baptism to priesthood holders, were I to believe as you do in the necessity of baptism.

I think tribalism in religion, in the sense that Patel uses the term, is dangerous and not ideal. I don't think that my opinion precludes my approving of people who like Jane Austen novels getting together at a convention (though better they would read henry james novels)). And of course, Mormons and all others are free to form voluntary associations in this great country of ours.

Yes, clearly Mormonism accepts anyone, and now even blacks can hold the priesthood. and within the belief system of mormonism, which all are free to accept or reject, there is an orderly meritocracy for membership in the Celestial Kingdom.

From outside the Mormon belief system, I look at the Mormon belief that a non-slacker obedient mormon has a chance to "be like God" because he was baptized,and an extraordinary non Mormon who does not wish to be baptized can not have that chance, and find that an unacceptable belief system. But that is clearly just my opinion.

My point, again, to Kurt, was that this IS the mormon belief system: only baptized "mormons" can attain the highest degree of salvation. and again, it is a orderly and consistent belief system.

I see loads of valuable Order in the universe, outside of the Mormon belief system. I do not oppose or disbelieve in order.

As far as human potential goes: in this life i have seen great things accomplished by humans (including myself, Henry James). I don't think Mormons have accomplished greater things than non-mormons. We have evidence on this point.

You believe in the afterlife men can become Gods. I don't. In that respect, you have greater faith in "human" potential after we are dead. While we are alive, we have equal belief in human potential.

And again, I don't think, in most cases, it makes much difference what one believes about the afterlife as long as one loves one's neighbor as oneself in this one.

Peace and Love to you
Henry

Henry,
'Had to laugh at your last line. You're one of a kind.

There are so many ironies in this dialogue. I'll point out a few. We had great input from a physician, a thoughtful writer named "Jeff P". I'd like to write prescriptions for some of the medications my children have to take, instead of seeing a doctor who has the license to do that. After all, why see the doctor if we can see the symptoms that say they need a refill? A license implies a doctor has passed classes and passed tests to be licensed, and knows what he/she is doing. But following your logic about the priesthood and baptism, the logic seems to imply that anyone who wants to say "I can do that" should be able to. The citizens collectively grant the authority to governments to license doctors. Are you saying anyone should be able to have that authority, by saying they do? Same goes for teachers, attorneys, ambassadors--why not chuck the whole system of authority and say "anyone who wants to do whatever can do so, no questions asked?" (I personally would not want to live under such a system of untrustability and chaos.)

You don't happen to believe in the need for baptism, but there are those of us who feel just as strongly about the authority involved there as about any other authority granted within society.

As to "tribalism", I see tribalism on many fringes of society as similarly minded people band together, so are you saying "no banding together allowed"? What about the social groups you advocate?

Ironic that the real gospel of Jesus Christ brings people together from all walks of life, from all nations under the sun, and says "you're all equal before God and before humankind, now work together and become a united body with no one thinking any other person is better than another." (And by the way, please bring the truths you know with you, so we can all be helped by them, as we truly can be.)

Some of us have outgrown the misconceptions we picked up as children when we thought Mormonhood was better than peoplehood. We're comfortable with the thought that "no man is an island...each is a part of the main".

I echo Jim's comment that the Celestial Kingdom is not for slackers, it's for doers who are so motivated and so humble and selfless that they are willing to learn what it takes to govern righteously, otherwise they most certainly need not apply. By the way, it is not gender-specific. Of course God is not going to keep righteous Jews or whomever out of that Kingdom, unless they are unwilling to make and keep covenants, but again, we're talking about being granted authority to govern--should it be a willy-nilly system when the stakes are so high?

Do you not see order in the universe? Does it not imply that order may be something important in the scheme of things, even for Unitarians?

We know so little here in this speck of eternity. You have great love for people. I would imagine you like the thoughts of John Donne. I just happen to think people have a lot more potential than you do. I mean an infinitely lot more potential--including yourself. I suspect Dr. Willard agrees with me. Peace to you.

Any connections with Memphis, Tennessee?

Jim

I ALMOST entirely agree with you, and appreciate the fairness and generosity of spirit that you exhibit.

The fact remains that
Mormon doctrine says:

Unless one is baptized by a priesthood holder and accepts the Mormon gospel (which Mormons will tell you is simply "God's Word," though the Muslims will not agree with the Mormons))

that person HAS NO CHANCE of being admitted to the "highest degree of glory," the Celestial Kingdom.

Mormon = Chance to enter the CK
Non Mormon/non-baptized = NO chance to enter CK

Love
Henry

Kurt, mon Frere,

You sound like GBH when asked if men could become Gods, and he said "I don't know that we teach that" when the quote "as man is God once was, and as God is Man may become" was said about 13,000 times in both Hinckley's and my church life.

Of course Mormons don't believe that Baptism *by itself* is *sufficent* to achieve the Celestial Kingdom. But it is *necessary* - I trust you see the difference.

My point is that a baptized Mormon of average intelligence and ability and character who pays his tithing and gets married in the temple can go to the Celestial Kingdom, even though you or I wouldn't want him to change a lightbulb in our house,

while an UN-baptized saint with GREAT character and ability, like, say, Gandhi or Martin Luther, CAN NOT go to the CK and have a chance to become a God cuz they ain't been baptized.

(and i KNOW that nice non-mormons go to three-star hotel equivalent Terretrial kingdoms rather than being damned, and why shouldn't they be happy with that?)

No. Mormons aren't JUST judged by "who we become." they are judged by "who we become" and Whether we were baptized (just like the Catholics, incidentally). That IS mormon doctrine. My great grandfather was in the jail with Joseph when he was "assassinated", so my folks got it from the horses mouth.

None of your quotes about hypocrites or departees change this doctrinal fact.

I know and have said many times that Mormons are Good People (as are catholics and muslims and atheists and unitarians and ....).

I am happy for you that your church makes you happy.

That is the crazy part. We are going to have a whole new crop of mediocre Gods, according to the Mormons.

Henry:

The beauty of God's plan is that it covers all of His children- past, present, and future. As I believe you have pointed out elsewhere, the vast majority of mankind adopt the religion of their upbringing. I cannot comprehend a God that would judge and award his children by something that is largely out of our control. In my opinion, our reward in heaven will not be entirely based on whether we were Mormon, Catholic, Muslim, Jew, or of some other belief in this life. Instead, I believe that all will have an equal opportunity in this life or in the next to learn and to accept the fulness of the gospel.

That's not to say that we ignore this life with the thought of adopting truth in the next life. We each have a conscience, and I believe we need to do the best we can in this life, whatever our circumstance may be, to follow what our conscience and heart tell us is right and true. Only God knows our hearts.

Hey Henry,

I just popped back in here for a second and saw your posts. What you describe as Mormon beliefs isn't something that I'm familiar with. Mormons believe that hypocritical Mormons go down south with anyone who doesn't follow the teachings of Christ. There is nothing saving in baptism by itself, only if we then live by the covenants we make. It would be an unjust world indeed if a scoundrel who happens to be Mormon makes it to heaven while everyone else gets a kink in their necks pointing him out to their friends in confused disbelief. Isaiah talked about having "neck [like] iron" (Isaiah 48:4), but I'm certain that's not the kind of soreness he was referring to.

In The Book of Mormon, the prophet Alma talked about what we carry with us into the next life - and he taught that we take more than just our bodies: "the SOUL shall be restored... [and] ALL things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame" (Alma 40:23). Another prophet taught that "the wicked shall remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be for the loosing of the bands of death.... even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all OUR guilt (Alma 11:41, 43).

Mormons are judged by God just like every other person - based on who we become. I said that I'm not better than anyone else based upon what church I belong to, and that's the truth. I promise it's not some kind of warm fuzzy rhetoric, but the substance of who I am. And that includes in the next life. If I didn't live a life here that correlated with how God taught me to live, then I would find a "rock, and hide... in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty (Isaiah 2:10)".

Christ talked about people with an attitude of self-righteousness based solely on membership and 'church-related work' in the New Testament. Each day is a trial to live right, a moment at a time. If I don't live up to my knowledge and responsibility, when I cross over to the next side, the words I hear will surely not be, "Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness" (Alma 5:16). No. Not likely. Instead, I will disappointedly, but not unexpectedly, hear Him say, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work[ed] iniquity" (Matthew 7:23). Even if I had been a Mormon. Joseph Smith made a comment back in 1843 that I have to think God agrees with: "I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm yet deals justice to his neighbors and mercifully deals his substance to the poor, than the long, smooth-faced hypocrite."

I rely totally and completely upon the atonement of the Savior to cleanse me from my countless mistakes (Isaiah 1:18), but don't plan on being there if I'm a Christian, or a Mormon, in name only.

Mormons believe in becoming good people, and living by as much truth as God gives us. We try to share that approach with everybody, and if it's a lifestyle of living that others don't want, then we remain peculiar in our desire to be "faithful servant[s]" (Matthew 25:21). It's unity in that type of purpose that "knits" us together, you might say, as one people - all be we a minority (Colossians 2:19; Mosiah 18:21).

I'm so grateful for the 'iron rod' (1 Nephi 11:25) of sorts that the scriptures and personal direction from God give me.

I am a Mormon, and it's something that makes me happy. Really happy.

~ Kurt Manwaring ~

http://mormonconversation.blogspot.com

Jim
you are trapped in your own frame, your own paradigm.

your arguments only make sense if one accepts the postulates of Mormonism.

If i am a Jew, or a secular humanist, who doesn't believe in Joseph Smith and his visions,

i consider the Mormon belief that

a Mormon of so-so character and ability will go to something called the Celestial Kingdom where Men (not women) will have the opportunity to become Gods

and a Jew or atheist of exceptional character and ability who refuses to be baptised into the Mormon faith
will NOT have an opportunity to become a God within the Mormon paradigm,

I say to myself,
that's sure a Crazy paradigm.

Remember: we don't accept your version of God (or Joseph Smith's, to be more accurate).

But Henry, God excludes no one from His blessings. In fact, he wants to bless us all, but being a God of order, he abides by law too, and if one chooses to seek truth and to abide by it and another chooses to not follow whatever truth he/she has received, God logically cannot give both the same blessing.

The choice really is ours, and we determine our own fate. The celestial kingdom awaits anyone that wants to live the celestial law.

And, He has prepared a glory for all, and even the lowest kingdom will surpass our current understanding.

Kurt - thanks for your generously put post.

Unfortunately, there are a few places where it differs from the Mormon Faith as I was taught it for 19 years (and as LDS.org describes it today).

You write
"While Christ may have a monopoly on salvation, the Mormons have never claimed to have a similar relationship over truth."

Mormons have always claimed to be
1. "the ONLY true church" (sounds like monopoly to me)
2. the ONLY church that knows that God lives on Kolob, that there are three degrees of heaven.
3. the ONLY possessor of the Priesthood authority necessary to baptize in the name of Jesus, which sacrament is

Necessary to achieve the HIGHEST level of salvation (the Celestial Kingdom). Only Mormons (or if you prefer, those who have been baptized by a Priesthood holder that the Mormons accept as legitimate)
will achieve the highest level of salvation.

So, Gandhi won't be there.
But Joe Schmoo from Idaho (who is my cousin) will be.

You end with the lovely statement
"But I don't think that makes me better than anyone else. What makes someone good is not the church they belong to, but the way they live their lives."

Until we get to heaven.

Love
Henry

E Patel starts his current column here thusly:

Tribal Religion, Transcendent Religion

There is a story about a Christian minister living abroad during World War II. His congregation sends him money so that he can return home for Christmas. When he doesn’t come back, they ask him why. He says that he used the money to help a group of Jews escape Hitler’s death camps and flee to safety.

“But they’re not even Christian,” writes one member of his congregation.

“Yes, I know,” the minister responds. “But I am.”

(i urge you to read the whole thing)

his point: tribal religion has the potential to destroy the world.
transcendent (of tribes) religion has the potential to make the word better.

I am a Mormon, and I think that it's important for every people to be peculiar (Titus 2:14), to have things about them that are unique.

While Christ may have a monopoly on salvation, the Mormons have never claimed to have a similar relationship over truth.

I think that sometimes it's easy to get caught up in details, and forget what the process of life is all about: "becoming." Becoming good people; trying to live the teachings taught by the Savior and incorporate them into who we are.

Mormons are just as susceptible to the trials of life as anyone else, but it is the gospel of Jesus Christ that gives us the tools we need to deal with the difficult times.

I don't think that Mormons are trying to "conform" to mainstream anything, but merely approach people in the way that makes most sense to them. That's the way that Jesus did His teaching, and we try to emulate everything we do after Him - including the way we talk to people. Now, that doesn't mean at all that mistakes aren't made - sometimes even bad ones. But when that happens, we pick up, and move on. Mormonism is equivalent to Christianity in that we believe we can change our lives around, repent, and become better, cleaner, newer people - everyday.

We love truth and goodness for what it is, no matter where it is found. Joseph Smith said that the fundamental principles of our religion are "... Jesus Christ, that he died, was buried, and rose the third day, and ascended into heaven."

But the gospel of Jesus Christ, and His life itself is of little use if it can't be applied and emulated. Joseph Smith finished that quote by saying, "But in connection with these, we believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, the power of faith, the enjoyment of the spiritual gifts according to the will of God, the restoration of the house of Israel, and the final triumph of truth." Those are the appendages. A hand does little good without fingers, and fingers can't be used without a hand. Or, as John recorded Jesus saying: "I am the vine, ye are the branches" (John 15:5).

Truth has always been a critcal issue when it comes to understanding what to incorporate into your life, and who you are. But again, we have no claim on truth; it's available to anybody who seeks it out. We do, believe, however, that there is much truth we can offer to other people. When people convert to "Mormonism" from other religions, they're not asked to leave a single grain of truth behind, but to bring it all with them and let us help them get even more.

I love being a Mormon! It provides me with an identity, a sense of purpose; and it provides a framework for understanding my relationship with Christ.

If you're interested in seeing the way a normal Mormon views the world, and sees the hand of God in each day, logon to this blog I have setup to try and share that way of life. My posting on January 8, 2008, "Hooked on Truth" might be a revealing insight into how Mormons view this new "pseudo-Christian" label that seem to have been given us.

http://mormonconversation.blogspot.com

I am a Mormon, and proud to be one. But I don't think that makes me better than anyone else. What makes someone good is not the church they belong to, but the way they live their lives.

~ Kurt Manwaring ~

It Doesn't Take Faith

We have overwhelming evidence these days that there is no difference in the moral behavior between

people who believe in God
and
people who don't.

Mormons are good people. My secular friends are good people. They are just as good, as far as I can see, and plenty of scientific evidence backs this up.

In my personal opinion, I would consider it a moral deficiency to believe that I had the Whole Complete Only Truth about life in the hereafter, which truth no one can possibly know, and that others don't.

Among other things, as Jeff P pointed out in his unimpeachible and sensible post, it is exclusionary and borders on the (modestly) triumphalist.

In fact, that is a big reason i no longer am a Mormon. I couldn't believe "we mormons" were the "only true church." and it made me feel morally dishonest to maintain it since i couldn't believe it.

ItTakesFaith:
Thank YOU for the reply!

I would be willing to wager large sums of money that you would always have been the altruistic person you already are, regardless of your Mormonism. If you had happened to grow up in Israel, I bet you'd be a marvelous and altruistic Jewish woman. If you were from Iraq, you'd be an altruistic Muslim woman. If you had no "belief" system, I suspect you'd be a loving, world-contributing atheist. (There are many of those, despite the usual characterizations.)

Consider the qualities that you describe in your post regarding the less-than-desirable behaviors as being attributed to lack-of-following-the-faith, but instead that they are found in all people all over the world, faithful or not.

I actually think your care and concern about "the world" in general transcends and happens despite the collective "distinctiveness" that is preached by our "creeds." Individual distinctiveness is a wonder and a great thing. I have less confidence in group-distinctiveness, as you know.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the "pressures" of living in Utah suffered by Mormon women, having been a physician there and seeing first-hand the "situations" they have to face. I'm curious, though. Would you agree, after having lived in several other states, that the "heathen" can live decent, meaningful lives outside of the context of majority religious dogma? (Don't take this as an insult.)

Parker notes the great helpfulness of his fellow members when his child was born prematurely.

As the son of the best Relief Society President in history, I can testify that such things happen all the time, and are among the many wonderful things about being part of a loving community. Mormons are not the only ones with such communities, but there is generally a strong connection that members feel to each other.

Parker talks about my experiences being different. They weren't in regard to what he is talking about. The overwhelming majority of my Mormon friends and relatives are/were lovely people.

I differ in my beliefs about God and Heaven, but that rarely makes a difference in how good a person is.

Henry

Jeff p- thank you for your comments. We certainly need a different view towards our fellow man.

However I disagree that we don't need faith. It is my faith along with prayer and all those other things, that has led me to these conclusions and feelings toward my fellowman and the world as a whole. I also think it is the lack of these things among my fellow Mormons that causes them to separate themselves from everyone else. They forget we are taught that God is no respecter of persons. We are no exception even if we believe we have the whole truth.

There are so many good people who are not Mormon. Many who are different and distinct in there own way.

As far as the use of stimulant meds in Utah we just visited there and yikes in is not the same as living outside of Utah. I have my own opinion about the use of meds because it is not the same as outside of Utah. They are trying to dang hard to live in two worlds. It is the ultimate keep up with the family next door. As a woman you have to be the perfect everything etc, etc, etc. no wonder they are depressed. It is not like that in the other 4 states I have lived in. I dont believe it is because they are Mormons but rather that they are trying to be like everyone else and not living the things they are taught. The gospel is not about houses and money and the amount and kind of handouts you made. It is all about show there. It should be more personal. Then they would probably be less depressed.

ItTakesFaith--you're well along on the road toward a healthy humanistic world view. Congrats!

I think you've observed the all-too-human faults of us all, and it's particularly hard to acknowledge them in an organization which is essentially defined by being somehow very different from "the world." For those who would build up the distinction, I'd advise much caution with judgment.

I'd want you to consider one thing more: it might not take faith. Faith might not be a virtue, despite what we've been taught our whole lives within a Christian tradition.

It might instead take some seasoned acknowledgement that the way forward won't be distinctive religious baggage and dogma, exclusion and demonizing of "others" or "the world" or "the lost," (even though we might decrease our cognitive dissonance by proclaiming that we keenly care about all of those who are "damned"), family home night or the teaching/praying hours (even though they are personally nurturing). To the extent that our teaching separates us from others, or somehow condemns "the world," I would argue that it is destructive.

I disagree with Mr. Otterson precisely because of his need of "distinction." It separates me from you, and from many other good and helpful people all over our nation and world.

Finally a note to Laura regarding "families are forever" theology: I'm happy the thought gives you some comfort, but keep in mind the myriad unhappy marriages and broken homes that happen to normal, intelligent people. They are not "lost" people, they are human beings. Additionally, (and I don't say this to be a smart-__s, but if things were as wonderful as you portray among the LDS family-oriented folks in general, Utah wouldn't probably have the highest use of anti-depressants in the world, nor would there be so many kids --I would bet again, the highest numbers in the world per capita-- on stimulant medications...) Consider that families can be very happy without the eternal family blessing.

Parker

thank you for the thanks. I hold out hope for my ward then. we have about 50 percent attendance and some months 10 percent home teaching ect. I unfortunately had my daughter early and received little or no help because my husband was inactive and few people interacted with me. we did receive help thanks to family and our Heavenly Father who blessed us in many ways. It is great when you are in the kind of ward you are in. It is a struggle for the rest of us who are not. I do what I can but everyone is to busy or whatever to even let me visit them and many dont or wont fullfill a calling. It is a crazy world. I hope they wake up before it is to late or to many people are lost. my non mormon neighbors are more intrested in serving their fellow man then many of my ward members. I dont mean to sound bitter. but some times it is really hard. And because we try everyone thinks we can do it all. and well we cant. I cant save them or their kids. I wish what you have could be the norm.

Concerned,
I'll admit that I'm tired of trying to reason with you, as it appears many others are also in other places as I read the exchanges. But if you really want a discussion about your misconceptions, I'll try and briefly help you out over on another line:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/michael_otterson/2007/12/no_artificial_distinctions/all_comments.html

Have as good a day as you can within your chosen frame of mind.

Laura,

i think there may be some confusion here. if i recall correctly, and granted it has been a while, the stuff taught in the temple includes promises and covenants to follow the teachings of the temple. there are many proscriptions in the mormon church, including things like booze and the use of naughty words. but, the temple includes covenants where people promise to do stuff, not proscriptions to not do stuff, no?

beyond that laura. i dont think i really get your point here. couples with a shared spiritual life are going to be close. that is certainly not distinct or unique to mormonism.

i think there is some uniqueness in that mormons believe that only MORMON families can be together forever and that a wayward child, or one that doesnt do all that is required to go to the temple, is essentially shooting a middle finger at the family and choosing not to be a long-term member of the family. that is unique and distinct. but, the closeness of a couple with shared values is common and encouraged in many religions.

Parker,

You noted: " I happen to live in a ward where attendance is at around 85% and home teaching and visiting teaching are likewise....."

Hmmm, not enough of the Joe Smith Con Game taught in Utah public schools??

And could not the " Smith kibutz" or the "Smith commune" be substituted for ward?? Being nice to each other is nice but it does not change the fact that Mormonism's foundations are based on the hallucinations and/or outright con game of one Joe Smith.

ItTakesFaith and Laura,
As an interested reader, thanks for your comments. I happen to live in a ward where attendance is at around 85% and home teaching and visiting teaching are likewise, plus my family was the recipient of incredible help from so many when our daughter was born prematurely with severe breathing and eating abnormalities. Our gratitude for all the unselfish help really cannot be adequately expressed, even now ten years later. Also, the non-LDS in our area are included and welcomed in neighborhood activities and they attend as friends. This can and does happen.

I have appreciated Henry James', Mayan's, and Sister Mary Lisa's comments, especially in the tone expressed here above, and count them as friends. Their views are based on their experiences, which are quite different than my own, but just as valid and authentic. Have a great 2008, all of you.

I to find it disturbing that many of my fellow Mormons don't practice what they preach. I have been told my whole life that even though people choose to do wrong the gospel is still true. I myself believe it to be true. But I am beginning to understand why it turns others off as they watch Mormons around them being just like anyone else. When it comes down to it we represent what we believe. If we don't do those little things we profess to believe what does that show those around us? So for all you fellow Mormons out there take a deep look at yourself and strive a little harder to live the things we have been taught. I have a number of close family and friends who have been deeply hurt by other members. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. And it it usually because we are living contrary to the gospel.

I know no one is perfect and humans will be humans. so we need to have patients with each other. I have known more good people in the church then I have know those who profess to believe yet don't live it but unfortunatly they stand out. They leave a bad representation on most around them.

Let us stop being self righteous and just live the things we believe and remember to have mutual respect and love for everyone around us. Including our fellow Mormons.

MAYAN is partialy correct when he stated

"most active mormons do not do all the things you say. they do not hold family home evening regularly or do their home teaching, etc. add to those numbers the fact that most mormons do not participate one bit in mormon activities and beliefs, and you have a pretty small number of self-proclaimed so-called peculiar peoples, no? "

Though I wouldn't say it is most but there are certainly enough to give that impression. We sometimes don't care for each other let alone everyone else. Even as a member I sometimes feel I am part of a minority in my ward who do the things mentioned above. Though I try to remember we are all at different stage and I too have not always done all I could. Still I think there are too many excuses and enough is enough. We have been taught what to do so we should stop with the excuses and start living what we preach.

So instead of saying well sometimes people don't always choose to do what they are taught. Let us try a little harder to do what we are taught.

I would like to add why I believe. Because I have experienced the great life that comes from having family home evening and from doing your home and visiting teaching and from praying and doing all the little things many choose not to do. They are a great strength to me personally and also to my family. I have also found that love and respect for those around you regardless of what they believe brings great friendships with great people. It creates a neighborhood of people who take care of each other. Mormon or otherwise.

Hello All,

Just wanted to jot down my thoughts on what I love about LDS culture and what makes it so distinctive to me personally.

It is the idea that my husband and I through our faith in and obediance to Jesus Christ are building an Eternal Family -- a Family striving to embrace all that is good and godly by following the pattern proscribed by God in sacred scriptures and in His temples so that we will remain together forever.

I find it so beautiful that there is this symbiotic relationship -- that as we draw closer to God we also draw closer to eachother specifically in this familial sense which I've found to be such a profoundly unmatched bond.

Despite what various families face in terms of challenges and differences, I think this overarching ideal is both unique and pervasive in its scope among Latter-day Saints and has the potential if lived to produce wonderful results.

I continue to be greatful as I apply this ideal and teachings in my life.

Best to all...

parker,

not a surprise at all. i dont intend to get into a discussion of whether or not people are human after all. if i recall correctly, Level 42 settled that for us, no?

my contention is with this comment: "Similarly, Mormons are peculiar. We don't drink or smoke. We usually have lots of kids. We believe in a modern prophet. We gather our families on monday nights to teach the kids lessons, sing songs and play games. And we generally try to engage in wholesome activities."

and i stand by my previous comment that not drinking, not smoking, having lots of kids, believing in a modern prophet, having family activities, teaching kids, singing, playing games and being wholesome is not peculiar, and is not peculiar to mormons.

it may be peculiar to think that doing so gets the rewards that motivate mormons. but those activities are not peculiar.

by the way, is there real evidence that contemporary mormon families are larger than other groups?

Mayan,
Your post reminds me of the familiar question, "Why do people do what they do when they know what they know?" Also, of Joseph Smith's response as to how he "governed" such a diverse group: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Just because people make poor choices when they know better or have been taught better, doesn't mean the source knowledge was faulty. It means people are human after all. Is that such a surprise?

Flashlight,

mormonism has some nice families, no doubt. there are some healthy aspects, certainly. the same can be said about islam, janism, judaism, etc.

being straight laced, as you call it, is not unique or distinct. claiming that it is unique to mormonism is a common testimony among mormons and is yet another false claim made by true believing mormons. it is vanity at best to think that a straight laced lifestyle is distinct in any way.

most active mormons do not do all the things you say. they do not hold family home evening regularly or do their home teaching, etc. add to those numbers the fact that most mormons do not participate one bit in mormon activities and beliefs, and you have a pretty small number of self-proclaimed so-called peculiar peoples, no?

where mormonism becomes harmful, imnsho, is where the image that you describe becomes more important than truth. there is plenty of sexual abuse in mormonism. alcoholism. drug abuse. child abuse. bankruptcy. and all sorts of other social ills. for some reason, it seems more important to say how wonderful it all is, and to let the realities be brushed aside and ignored.

peculiarly yours,

the peculiar, distinct, rare, extinct and elusive elephant of the mayans

Parker,

Nice words (2 Timothy 3:) from Paul? who borrowed it from the OT scribes who borrowed bits and pieces from the ancients. Actually, most contemporary NT exegetes believe after exhaustive research that the epistles to Timothy (and Titus) were not written by Paul but by "wannabee" Pauls. See Father Ray Brown's analyses in his 878 page book, An Introduction to the New Testament pp. 639, 654, 673,
an excerpt:

"Authenticity: Probably written by a disciple of Paul or a sympathetic commentator of the Pauline heritage several decades after the apostle's death. "

See also Professors Crossan and Reed's book, In Search of Paul and Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul.

And Paul (or his "wannabees") the Prophet? Hardly, he could not even get the timing of Jesus' second coming correct but it did serve to dramatically increase both the conversion rate and the coffers. Hmmm, contemporary preachers/fortune tellers/Mormon "profiteers" still use that con game.

The fulfillment is all around us of this scriptural prophecy:
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness; but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." --Paul the Apostle

Flashlight,

Hmmm, the only thing needed to make the perfect Mormon would be to delete the myth of Moroni and the "origins" of the Book of Mormon. Are you up to the challenge? If not, Mormonism will wallow with the rest of the Christian religions in alcoholic-induced, dream foundations and/or "conned" origins.