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Dear Beloved Michael Otterson,
Greetings to you in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We are praying for you and your family and for your ministries.

In the month of April we are going to arrange the seminar with 300 pastors and a huge public meeting so by this time few are welcoming you and your wife and family to preach and teach the Gods word in the midst of the Indian people. We want to work with you and have touch with you to extend the coming kingdom of God. We are working mostly in the Hindu areas many people are coming to know He is the only one God who can save from sin and give eternal life.

So Dear Friend, as we are working please help us and guide us to go through the village by village to bring the perishing souls un to Christ. Strengthen us pray for us stretch your hands for the Glory of God. I and my team willing to work with you and your ministries in the days to come.

Please remember us in your committee meeting as you are gathering. If are willing to come to India go by this direction. Fly to directly Hyderabad Andhra Pradesh head quarters from there you fly to vishakapatnam airport from there we will be with you to receive and visit my ministry.

We want to pray for you and your ministry and family that God may bless you abundantly as light of the world. In same way please pray for us and for our families and ministries in India Andhrapredesh. We want to hear from you soon amen,

Yours faithfully,
In His service,
Pastor. JOHN PRADESH.
Pastor. RAJU K.SPERGEOUN.
AIDS GLOBLE CHILDERN MINISTRY.
INDIA.
John_prasad63@yahoo.com

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Stan Chan aka Che Dali ~

I'm fascinated by your story. I'd love to see some of your art sometime as well, if you have any.

I had a very unorthodox upbringing.
TBM Grandparents. Dad was raised Mormon, but was never active as an adult. (I'd always just assumed he was Atheist. But since we never really had a religious discussion I didn't know anything for sure.) Mom was a nevermo artist/teacher/feminist, but pretty spiritual in a humanist, very secular sort of way.

I basically had very little organized religious upbringing, other than the fact that my TBM grandparents saw to it that I was baptized at 8, along with all their grandkids. No explanation, no consent, just dunk, wham-bam-thank-you-mam. It was really pretty meaningless to me.

I was however very influenced by Alex Haley and Roots and was deeply influenced by the book of rememberance my Grandmother had assembled about the whole history and geneology of my family. I was intrigued by my roots. I grew up fascinated with the complex lives of those people who were my heros, my fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters.

I was an artist like my mother and took a real interest in the Arts, humanities, culture, anthropology, philosphy and psychology. I was a pretty precocious kid in high school. I signed myself up for night classes in art at University of Washington at age 16.
I became good friends with a teacher of mine who was a sculptor and a Jungian analyst and very spiritual.

He became my spiritual guide and mentor.

I grew deeply interested in Carl Jung, and through Jung, myth, dreams and how we are all connected through the collective subconscious.

I turned 18 and was accepted into an elite Art Institute and found myself surrounded by very talented artists who were much older and wiser than me. They were fascinating. Everyone of them had wonderful stories to tell about their world travels and all the great books they had read and experiences they'd had.

By contrast, I had nothing to say. I was just a white kid from suburbia who grew up with a cynical Boeing engineer for a father and a frustrated artist for a mom.

I took a history class from a genius of a history professor who made me realize that I really knew nothing about the world about which there was so much to learn. I was at a major crossroads in my life. Here I was studying to become an artist and I had nothing to say. My life was a giant void. I felt like a fraud. I had no roots. I had no clue what my purpose was or what my place was in society. I didn't know if I wanted to be an artist. I didn't even know what purpose artists served in society.

So I decided I really needed to go find out about the world before I decided what place I would take in it. I dropped out of college and travelled around the entire US, Europe and Africa for 9 months, in search of my roots. I went to the places where my forefathers had come from. Walked the streets they walked. Worshipped in the churches they worshipped in. Marched in the candlelight processions they marched in. Listened to the gregorian chants echo off of the same cathedral rock arched ceilings they had helped build.

Where ever I went in the world, I was drawn to holy places. From Mega christian churches in Texas with 8 cameras and a guy in a polyester yellow suit named "Brother Bob" and his bleach blonde buffont hairdooed wife begging for money to the TV cameras, to Mountain tops. The Rothko Temple in Houston to Cathedrals in Europe. From Stonehenge to Tibetan Budhist temples in the French Alps and Mosques in Africa. It was clear to me that religion was the center of culture and had a major impact on the people and communities that practiced the religion. Whereever I went in the world there was a different religion that suited the people who lived there and connected them in their own way to the cosmos, universe, God, Tao, whatever name you gave it, it was all the same to me. People just had different ways of expressing their respect to the same God.

I'd had some very spiritual experiences in Europe. Since my family had joined the Mormon church in England I decided to go visit the Mormon church there where the Mormon side of my family had come from. The people were lovely. To be honest, that was the first time I'd ever felt the spirit in my life the way I did that day. As I listened to these girls sing in that masonry chappel, I could have sworn there were angels accompanying them they were so beautiful. I was very influenced by a particular Mormon family there who took me in and treated me like a son. I will never be able to repay their graciousness, kindness and hospitality. I was very touched by them and decided that was one thing I wanted in my life was a loving family, united and supportive in every aspect of each others lives.

I eventually wound up in North Africa and became fascinated by the culture and the religion. They were the most devoted people I'd ever met. Even the men digging ditches stopped digging ditches when the Imam called for prayer.

Allaaaah Akbar. Alllaaaah Akbar. Achado ana La. Illah ha Illah. Achado wanna Mohamed. Allah Akbar. Allah Akbar. Allah Akbar.

Whenever I hear that call, I am trasported back to an oasis I grew to love in North Africa. Where date palm trees sway in the Saharan breeze, as women wash their clothes in the sweet stream where I first learned the ritual Muslim washing. Great frogs live peacefully in the watery gardens around the mosque. Where sparrows turn into bats as twilight falls. And the Imam calls out for the people to come to the mosque for the final prayer of the day.

The ditch diggers would roll out their mats and face mecca and pray right there next to their ditch, next to the business men who were also prostrate in the same position. They were equals before God. I had never known anyone so devoted to their religion.

I made fast friends in Morocco who taught me daily, everything about Islam. I learned the prayers in Arabic, they taught me their beautiful ritual washing, TaWadat, required before entering a Mosque. When I had learned everything I needed to learn I went to the inner sanctum when the Imam called me to prayer and washed alongside the other worshippers.

At first I could tell that he was skeptical of this Western interloper. He asked me in Arabic if I had performed TaWadat. If I believed in one God, Allah. If I believed Mohamed was his prophet.

I knew all the answers to his questions and as I looked into his eyes, I saw that he accepted me as a brother.

I realized at that moment that deep down, there was no difference between us.

I could just as easily have been born in North Africa as North America. I was not Mormon or Muslim or American or African, I was just human making a deep spiritual connection with another human.
We didn't even speak the same language, but we managed to connect on a deep spiritual level and see beyond our superficial differences. I felt at home in that beautiful oasis. I loved it there. It was really like a paradise on earth.

I had acheived what I had come to achieve. I had totally integrated myself into another culture. I wore their clothes, ate their food, lived in their houses, learned their customs, learned their language, worked beside them, learned their religion, made friends there, was accepted into their inner sanctums, their families, and made deep spiritual connections.

Then as summer approached and my oldest sister's wedding grew near, my heart yearned for my family back home and I decided to return.

When I got back to Spainish teritory in the North of Africa I went into a Catholic church and saw a crucifix behind the altar. I looked at Jesus hanging there on the cross and said, "I no longer believe in you."

That day was the worst day of my life, before or since. I was beaten badly and nearly lost my life.
It was a brutal fight for my life and I was afraid I killed a man. Luckily I didn't kill him and I managed to survive, bloody and beaten, but it was my darkest hour. I connected it to having renounced christianity.

There's this strange place on the Barbary Coast of Africa. It's a no man's land. So many battles have been fought here between Muslims and Christians. Today it is considered Spanish Teritory, but it is Spanish in name only. It is a place mostly ignored by the world. The populace is descended from the pirates who once called this place home. There's a port city called Mellilia on the Mediteranian Barbary coast of North Africa.

I got stuck there for a couple of days waiting for a ferry to take me back to Europe.

While I was waiting I met a man who asked me for some food, which I gave him.

He then asked me, "Comma me Casa?"

I had a vision of a white house on a hill somewhere with a lovely family waiting to host me. I said nothing, but shrugged my shoulders and followed him, since I had nothing better to do in this place.

He took me up inside this fortress on a hill by the sea and we entered into an apartment where he was apparently squating.

There was nothing there except a matress and the remnants of a fire he'd apparently lit in the corner of the room. The whole house had a sickening acrid smell from the fire that had been lit in the corner of the main room. I took pity on this poor young man and started asking about his family. He was obviously a street urchin. Before I knew it he picked up an empty bottle of African Star beer and asked if I wanted one. I said "No. I'm Muslim."

Then he disappeared without a word.

Something told me to get out of that hellhole, but I hesitated a moment too long.

Next thing I knew, he came back into the room with a guy who looked like Satan, dressed in white. Wearing a white turban, with an evil look in his eye. He was pure evil incarnate. I felt a very evil vibe the moment I saw him.

I knew this encounter would not have a happy ending.
I picked up my backpack and said I gotta go.

They insisted that I stay.

The more strongly I insisted I leave the more strongly they insisted I stay. To the point where they physically took my bags off my back and made it clear I was not getting out of there without a fight.

There was some small talk and before I knew it they were asking for money.

I told them I had very little money.

They told me they knew I was a rich American and must be traveling with plenty of money.

In the course of this conversation I noticed that Satan had a gun tucked into the front of his pants. I looked around the room to see what options I had.

There was a 2x4 leaning up against the wall in the corner. I figured that was my best option for getting out of this thing alive. As they grew more and more insistant that I give them my money I stood up and tried to force my way out of the room. They both tackled me but could not take me down. That's when I started throwing punches.

I managed to back up against the wall to where the 2x4 was leaned up against the wall. And I told satan that my money was in my backpack on the floor in front of us. I told him to take it. The struggle stopped and I had one guy holding onto me with my right hand on the end of a 2x4 and Satan in front of me digging through my belongings looking for money. I felt like I was in a movie. Everyting from that point happened in slow motion. I pushed the street urchin away from me with my left hand, raised the 2x4 up over my head and swung for the fences. I actually knocked the guy's turban off his head when I hit him and he collapsed. I thought I'd killed him and had a vision of spending the rest of my life in a prison like the guy on Midnight Express.

Before I knew it the street urchin pulled out a knife and cut me twice before I was able to get a good shot at him. Fortunately I didn't get stabbed or I probably wouldn't be here writing this. The fight went on, but I was so scared I'd killed the guy that I kind of went into shock and just managed to defend myself from being killed. I didn't want to kill two guys in one day, but I didn't want to die either.

In the end I managed to get out of there and go get the cops.

When we came back they were both gone, with some of my stuff. Fortunately they left my passport and some travelers checks so I could make it home.

I was on the next boat, grateful I'd escaped with my life, and one fight wiser.

I learned from that experience to trust my instincts.

I arrived home two weeks later, my own man, having traveled accross 3 continents on my own. Surivived some serious battles and made some great friends. I had stories to tell, but nobody was interested.

My homecoming was overshadowed by my sisters upcoming wedding in the Mormon temple. I had never taken Mormonism seriously but I had a new appreciation for the religion of my forefathers when I got home. It was my heritage, my tribe, the legacy I'd inheirited, my roots.

I got home and found that the Mormon family I had visited in England had written my parents basically asking why they let their son travel around the globe when I should be preparing for a mission. Nobody had ever said that to me before. Nobody had ever expected that of me before.

My parents were pretty offended, since they didn't "let" me do anything, I was an adult and responsible for my own life, and for that matter they didn't really care if I served a mission or not since they were not even Mormon. They would have rather I joined the Peace Corps. They thought the guy was pretty presumtuous to write to them and rip them a new one for not taking the church seriously. (and they were probably pretty right on with that assessment)

But I thought it was interesting that out of all the people I had met on my journey, the only one who'd bothered to keep in contact with me and take an interest in me enough to inquire about my well being was this one Mormon father I'd been impressed with. I decided I should take a serious look at Mormonism for once. As I did, it seemed like it was a good lifestyle. I didn't find a whole lot wrong with the religion, it was just didn't make a heck of alot of sense. But my grandparents were Mormon, my sisters were all mormon, most of my relatives were mormon and I had all this Mormon geneology and roots I could identify with. There were definitely some absolutely gorgeous mormon women I knew, which didn't hurt.

Most of my friends who were mormon were relatively on the ball and mature, out serving missions, in college, married, kids the whole nine yards.

I'd been to nearly every other holy place I could think of but the one place I was not allowed to go was inside a mormon temple. That was sort of a challenge to me, so I decided make it a goal to gain acceptance into a Mormon temple, like I had the Muslim Mosque. The way I saw it, it was just a different way to worship the same God.

I naievely went in and talked to my sister's bishop about what it would take for me to go to the temple and the rest is history.

Now I'm back to where I started before I got sidetracked--my own religion, with a whole lot more stories to tell my grandkids.

Life has come full circle and that's good.

I'm fortunate that I got what I wanted. A loving family united and supportive in every aspect of each others lives, to contribute to the world. Hopefully I can acheive what my father set out to acheive, to leave behind better individuals than ourselves. Only time will tell.

I'm glad that I'm able to add my story to that of my forefathers, in the book of life. Perhaps somebody in a couple of generations will read my story and recognize something of themselves in it and gain the courage to follow their consicence and become their authentic selves as a result.
That is my hope anyways.

Now you know my whole life story.

It is not the responsiblity of government to ensure that everyone has a job, food, housing or healthcare. Period.

Do not be blinded by Socialism.

James,

I only did my best, based on a more in-depth conversation I had with my evangelical freind on the purpose of life.

He went to Calvary Bible college, which is unaccredited. So he may be theologically illiterate in the academic sense. At least my pastor friend is no longer a wacko, at least I could do that for him. I could not claim theological literacy by any means, as I have read little to no nity grity theology; only anthro of religion, which is quite different; and general conference talks :).

You shall be my theological teacher James.

I will now sign off. I have let my life run away from me with my obsessive posting.

Cheers,

Jd1

"In other words, I was answering my critique on his behalf, given he is not present to defend himself from charges of being a wacko."

ahh - my apologies... I did misread your post.

Thanks.

JD
Yes, I understand that you were speaking in the pastor's voice in the Garden of Eden example.

Thus we can't really critique him, or you: however, if our friendly pastor really did hold the beliefs you illustrate in the Eden story, he would rise in my estimation from Wacko to theological illiterate.

Once again, we humans can't KNOW why something we call God created the world. But we can know that he had to have foreseen the fall if we believe the Genesis Judeo-Christian Creation Myth. To imagine him creating Adam and Eve so he could revel in their frolicing in the Garden is quite patent anthropomorhizing. Which is of course what all human creations of God have been to one degree or another. We have to understand God, whether or not she exists, through the limitations of our finite human experience and imagination.

Why IS there something rather than nothing? It is the great unanswered theological question.

In other words, I was answering my critique on his behalf, given he is not present to defend himself from charges of being a wacko.

NEWSFLASH:

A man by the name of Richard Bushman is now listed as an On Faith Panelist. I am relieved to no longer have to postulate shoddy hypothesis as to why Mormonism has only one representative here.

I am quite looking forward to seeing what he writes.

Jd1

Guys,

I am guessing you thought I was talking as a Mormon. I was giving the explanation I imagined the Evangelical Pastor would give, provided my understanding of Evangelical theology. That is all. Does that make sense?

Jd1

JD1 ~

You wrote, "When God created us, we lived in the Garden of Eden where there was no pain, and everyone was blissfully happy. Then Adam and Eve threw a wrench in God's plan and used their God given freedom to disobey, and evoked God's displeasure by bringing sin and pain into the world."

1. Were "WE" in the Garden, or just Adam & Eve?
2. Had they not disobeyed, wouldn't all of us minus Adam & Eve still be in the Spirit World, enjoying our peaceful pre-existence?

HJ:

I have to admit, every once in a while I sit back and chuckle on your selection of words. Your calm and kind closing remark to JD1 had me in stitches, "my gentlemanly friend."

JD1:

You wrote "...Adam and Eve threw a wrench in God's plan and used their God given freedom to disobey". You have me thinking on this one. Do you truly feel that they went against God's plan by disobeying? My understanding of God's plan was that the fall had to happen, hence the need for a Savior. This isn't to say that God didn't want them to obey, but I feel that he knew they were not going to, else how would they know good from evil? I hope you do not misinterpret my question - my intentions are not to be confrontational. I am asking sincerely, for clarification on your understanding of this event.

JD and HJ:

Your exchange reminds me of a quote from the movie Out of Africa that has stayed with me, although I may not recall it perfectly. In the scene, Karen Blixen has driven off a lion that was in the process of killing one of her oxen. The ox lies groaning, in the process of dying, and Blixen's Kikuyu servant is pulling thorns out of her shoulder and cleaning her wounds. He says to her: "This lion is hungry, he does not have this ox. Memsahib is bleeding, she does not have this ox. God is great, he plays with us."

A multi-faceted comment, that.

I enjoy reading your thoughts, my brothers,

P.

Thanks James for the reassurence,

In inter-faith dialogue misunderstandings can abound. I am always wary of that, maybe a little paranoid.

I must say I do not think my evangelical pastor friend is a wacko. Once you accept the premise of Biblical literalism, his statement is perfectly rational. Revelation 4:11 says "for thou has created all things and for thy pleasure they are and were created." He continually reminded me that he was only answering my questions with what the Bible says.

I think my interpretation of this explanation reflects my LDS bias. Had I pressed him I am sure he could have provided a nice apology for God's non-narcissism in the face of this explanation.

One I can think of is this: it gives God pleasure to see us in a state of paradise and happiness. When God created us, we lived in the Garden of Eden where there was no pain, and everyone was blissfully happy. Then Adam and Eve threw a wrench in God's plan and used their God given freedom to disobey, and evoked God's displeasure by bringing sin and pain into the world.

God sent His son to restore us to the state we were in the Garden of Eden, so our existence would once again give him pleasure.

I am sure a believer in Biblical Literalism would do a better job. So I would not assume he is a wacko based on my biased interpretation of his statement.

Best,

Jd1

JD
I didn't think you were being offensive to Karen with your story, or to anyone. I was just noting the strangeness of your Protestant Minister's statement. Not your strangeness. I thought your post was completely congenial and interesting, as usual.

You DO touch on the BIGGEST QUESTION of meaning.

Why DID God create the world?
or, as Aristotle and other philosophers have puzzled throughout the ages,

"Why is there SOMETHING rather than Nothing.?"

For many great philosophers, this question leads to an infinite regress.

If you answer, "to fulfil god's plan"
Aristotle will ask you, "Why?"
and once you answerr THAT question
he will ask you WHY again and again.....

The Catholics, who have the best developed religious/philosophical tradition in the West, will tell you that the Ultimate Answer is
"It's a mystery." So it is a GOOD thing that you and Karen and I are comfortable NOT knowing lots of things (though I, as is patently obvious, know ALMOST everything).

Best regard JD, my gentlemanly friend.

Henry

Thanks again for helping me not offend Karen. I was not providing "evidence" against Protestantism. I was just giving a taste of an anecdotal experience that has shaped my unconscious perception. I should have made that clear.

In reality, the only Christians that I have had much contact with are hard core fundamentalists. Most of my non-Mormon peer groups has either been fundamentalist Christians or atheists/agnostics. That's part of why I enjoyed Karen’s post, her answer to the questions of the fate of non-Christians, the status of infants etc. were refreshing to me.

She is happy not having all the answers, which I can totally identify with. My fundamentalist friends do have all the answers, and the answers are, well, you know.

Best,

Jd1

JD it IS interesting for you to compare your understandings with Karen

Your Anecdotal Protestant minister sounds like a wacko. And the evidence is quintessentially anecdotal. NO protestant i know would say god did it for his own pleasure, and that's not just because i am in New England. You know the Calvinist tradition well, for instance. Pleasure? What is that? And WASPS are notorious for abstemiousness in regard to everything but liquor.

I am continually struck by how the best aspects of your God (or anyone's) are pretty equally descriptive of the
• Highter Power, in general, that 12 steppers turn things over to.
• Buddhist concepts of flow and nirvana.

In other words, completely generalizable.

Your feeling that God reveals things to HIS children as they are ready to receive them, for instance. That is equally true for my Higher Power, which is Not a Him or All-Knowing or motivated by intention.

I think human beings who practice loving kindness and the Golden Rule get pretty much the same benefits that you and Karen get in this life. For instance, the Mormon concept of Eternal Progression is LESS satisfying to me than the schema presented by Ernst Becker in The Denial of Death., and none of us can know what happens when we die. But we can all see the good results of someone like Karen believing in Jesus *in the way that she does*. (some believe in Jesus in a very destructive way).

Yours in Buddha.

Henry

Hi Karen,

Thank you for your lovely post. If we accept as Christians that God's "ways are not our ways", we can accept the fact that we do not have the answers to everything. I too have to wrestle with God at times when it seems things do not add up. I can totally identify with the experience you detail of developing faith and trust in God.

I don't think my faith has all of the answers by any means. I am okay with that. I find my faith provides satisfactory answers to some big questions, particularly central questions about the purpose of life, where we came from and where we are going. I find this expanded Eternal context beautiful and helpful in understanding God's love and character.

Maybe a personal story would help in conveying why I see Protestantism as having “gaps in revelatory knowledge.” I was interviewing an Evangelical pastor for a research project of mine. I asked him why God created us. His answer: “For his own pleasure.” To me that seemed like kind of an empty answer. It made God seem like a selfish narcissist. This answer seemed entirely inconsistent with my conception of God’s love. I am not saying this would be your answer. You may have better one, or you might say we don’t know but you trust it was for a good reason. Which I think is fine. This might be satisfactory to me, if I were bred in the protestant tradition.

I find my faith meaningful because it postulates a God that continually reveals His mysteries to His children as soon as they are ready to receive them. There is no end to what I can learn from God, and there is nothing that is off limits if I am prepared. I am naturally curious, so I love this aspect of my faith. There are things which are unanswered of course, as many of the critics of Mormonism will attest. But I am okay with that because I think Mormonism provides great answers to the most important spiritual questions and it promises I can receive my own testimony of their truthfulness through the Holy Spirit.

As one who has a continual interest in the arguments of skeptics and atheists, I find Mormonism has answers to classic arguments against God that I do not find in orthodox Christianity. Though it does not have all the answers. The answers it does provide allows me to maintain my belief in God where I might otherwise loose it to the “If God exists, he must be a monster” arguments. My faith helps me understand God’s love in the context of real life. To that I am Eternally grateful to my Father in Heaven.

You said earlier that you believed in your faith because you asked questions, and because you felt like it could stand up to scrutiny. I believe the revelations God has given us in our modern days provide a context in which God as an personal, powerful, all loving being can stand up to scrutiny.

In the end, the answers I love in Mormonism are not the foundation of my faith. You said earlier that only the Holy Spirit can convert, and I agree. My belief springs ultimately from my trust in experiences with the Holy Spirit, and that is why I am okay with still unanswered questions.

Yours in Christ,

Jd1

JD1: I am glad that you found my earlier post informative. Just to clarify, I am not claiming in any way that my answers to RTC necessarily reflect any "official protestant doctrine" because for one thing, there is no such thing given the many denominations with their little variations on non essential doctrine.

I find your statement re: "gaps in revealed knowledge" interesting. Do you find it difficult to have gaps? I ask this question sincerely, and I most certainly do not mean to be condescending. I ask because in my case, the deeper my faith becomes, the more I trust God, the easier for me it is to accept gaps in my knowledge/understanding of God and His ways. There was a time when I felt I needed answers for everything. Now I accept that there are things I will never fully know and understand on this side of heaven and I don't find that as unsettling as I used to. I think it is a reflection of my deepening trust in God even when I don't "get Him", or at least I hope that that is what it is. I still wrestle with God quite a bit but not in the same way that I used to.

James,

Okay, let me clarify something. I never said there are objective conditions wherein Mormons are treated worst than anyone else, or Mormons are too good for this. I repeatedly said that his is an attribute of the entire forum.

Mormons are not as a whole any less contentious than any other people (just read the article I posted for evidence of that). But there is a tradition in Mormonism of *avoiding* conversations that are characteristically contentious. The Book of Mormon says "contention is of the devil." So the belief is that if something is of the devil, nothing good will come of a contentious conversation.

What occurs at ON Faith will be *considered* more contentious than, say, Robert Millet's debates with evangelicals.

Also Mormonism is a new, and smaller than traditions like Catholicism and Islam (which are considered legitimate world religions), so I admit Mormons might be more sensitive than them to what goes not here (I prefer sensitive to the pejorative "thin skinned").

Sensitivity combined with the anti-contention tradition explains why many will have secular academic conferences on Mormonism, but Quinn is having difficulty finding people for ON FAITH.

But I admit this is just a speculation. I really *don't know* who she asked, or why she is having difficulty. It is a mystery.

Best,

JD1

Yes JD, I was the anonymous who called you a gentleman.

I truly don't want you to say Mormons are closeminded and cultish. I do think Mormons are trying to be more and more engaged with the outside world, and of course the Missionary effort requires that the church not be seen as a Crazy bunch of nuts. My private secretary, though now an Ex mormon, still bristles when people describe Mormons, his people, as a bunch of nuts.

i only want you to admit that it doesn't make sense to say Mormons don't come on here because they are treated so badly. Otterson is treated like everyone else, and better than many. And aside from the obvious crazies, the criticisms he and the Church have gotten have a valid basis.

And Mormons are no more Non-Contentious than Unitarians or Episcopalians. Have you ever seen how polite those Episcopalians are? I think yours is a non answer because I don't think it is a valid reason.

More mormons should come on here, and it is no excuse for them to say "we are treated unfairly and persecuted" or "we are too non-contentious."

I thought the Bushman press conversation was interesting. He is clearly a lovely man (i know him a little) and very smart and charming. And the discussion was nuanced and instructive.

That last anonymous was me.

James,

So you were anonymous!! Once again, thanks for the warning. I don't know how you can call what I have said a non-answer. I have given the answer several times. I wish we wouldn't beat a dead horse here.

It seems to me you want an answer that acknowledges how closed or cultish the church is. I just think that is a poor explanation because the church members are interacting with outsiders all the time in academic and religious venues. Remember the conference on Joseph Smith at the Library of congress, which included LDS and non-LDS presenters? Robert Millet's public discussions with various evangelicals? And countless other public conversations and debates Latter Day Saints are having about their beliefs?

John Reynolds said this about Latter Day Saints (on this forum):

"A traditional Christian should only make political alliances with groups that embrace reason, with a theology with agreeable public policy implications, and with a history of successful participation in the Republic. Fortunately for Romney, Mormonism easily passes these tests.

First, the religious beliefs of the candidate should be held by a significant number of people willing to defend them (even if unsuccessfully) in a rational manner.

The mere existence of a fully accredited Brigham Young University and Mormon apologetic groups settles this question. The Evangelical Torrey Honors Institute has hosted thoughtful Mormons willing to debate their ideas."

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/2007/05/should_christians_vote_for_mor.html#comments

It is a surprise that they are having difficulty finding somebody. Bushman was surprised. I offered what I think is best explanation. In any event, Bushman said to Sally Quinn that he could think of lots of Mormons that would be interested, so I predict we will see more Mormons.

best,

JD1

Dear Henry ~

Just so you aren't offensive to ME (your future wife in heaven)...I heard they don't need frying pans up there, and I don't want to have to find any alternate methods of showing you I care.

Anonymous,

Okay clarification. That is how *I* interpreted many of the things she said to James. It would be good if she could clarify to me what she thinks.

BTW, thinking someone elses beliefs are irrational does not make one close minded. It is pretty much what everyone does with beliefs that are foreign to them. I do it, we all do it. It doesn't make us closed minded as much as it makes us human.

Thank you for the warning, AND for calling me a gentlement :)

Just wish I knew who you were....

Not that there is anything wrong with being offensive. I do it all the time.

I just like to point it out when it happens.

JD
a prediction:

you wrote to Karen:
"It seemed like you were pretty convinced that Mormonism was irrational when you first began posting. When I am learning about a religious tradition, one of the first things that I enjoy wraping my head around is how that faith is rational for the adherents."

I don't think she is going to like your characterization of her. You are pretty clearly saying she is close minded. If I were she, I would be offended, and she doesn't realize what a gentleman you really are as I do.

Your (non) answer to Karen's question is again
"the Mormon non-contention tradition."

You had earlier said (I paraphase) "poor otterson gets picked on and personally attacked so much that who would want to put up with that?"

Karen effectively showed both reasons up for the evasions that they are. If Mormons want to engage in an open relationship with the world, they can't say "oh, we're non contentious, don't criticise us."

If they don't want to engage with the world, then they of course won't come on this blog at all, and they can stay an isolated enclave.

But as Karen quite effectively showed, Otterson has no more been subjected to the rough and tumble of open pluralistic dialog than many others, and much less than many.

Hi Karen,

I don't know why she's having a hard time finding Mormons. I already gave my opinion on that. I think it comes down to the anti-contention tradition. You can read about it in the article I cited earlier if you are interested in understanding this dynamic in Mormonism.

It's nice to see you’re interested in learning about Mormonism. It seemed like you were pretty convinced that Mormonism was irrational when you first began posting. When I am learning about a religious tradition, one of the first things that I enjoy wraping my head around is how that faith is rational for the adherents. That’s why I enjoyed your post because it helped me understand a bit more how Protestants deal with what I see as major gaps in revealed knowledge.

Best,

Jd1

Here's the link again if you’re interested:

http://www.sunstoneonline.com/magazine/issues/132/Defending_the_Kingdom.pdf

Jim A

good grappling with the meaning of truth.

a couple of comments:
you say "Truth does not contradict itself by definition."

A cursory study of Quantum Mechanics would make you doubt that proposition. Though i DO agree with your example, Christ can not both BE the only begotten son of God, and at the same time NOT Be.

In terms of the relation of god(s) to humans, contemplate this quote from Shakespeare, who gave us more and deeper truths than even Jesus:

"As flies to wanton boy, are we to the Gods.
They kill us for their sport."

Look at the tsunamis and earthquakes and plagues and tell us Shakespeare didn't nail this one.

luv
henry

RTC: thank you for your response. Again, I really don't think you meant it that way but you made a pretty condescending statement to me: a grand canyon separates us in that you are still seeking more truth and knowledge whereas I am satisfied with where I am and looking no further. You are quite wrong about that assessment I'm afraid. I am a life long learner. What I am not doing is seeking additional knowledge about God through the LDS church. You seem to be saying that I could be only continuing my learning and spiritual growth if I delve into mormon theology. Nothing could be further from the truth. I still have much to learn and understand from the Bible plus the writings of C.S. Lewis, J.I. Paker, Philip Yancey, Sturgeon, Hannah Hunnard and many many more. Knowing God is a lifelong process that goes on even for those outside of the LDS church. Having said that, I will look forward to the results of your research. I think it is OK for me to be interested in the teachings of your church without being interested in joining your church. Learning about other faiths helps us all to love and accept each other despite our differences.

Phaedrus: thank you for your kind words again. Our pastor used to say that adversity can make you bitter or better, the choice is up to you. When I sense myself sliding towards bitterness and self pity I try to catch myself as fast as I can. I went through some pretty harrowing times before coming to the US. Why I survived when others didn't, I have no idea. I certainly was not more deserving. But here I still am, and there has to be a reason why I am still here. Engaging in hatred and name calling surely can't be one of them. I do believe that Jesus is the Word of God, the truth and the light. But if believing in Him does not make me a better person, then what is the point of asking Him to fill me with his Holy Spirit? I pray everyday that God help me be a good agent for Him in this world. Part of that is sharing my faith and God's love but again, not hitting people on the head with a Bible.

JD1: thank you for your kind words. Re: other mormon leaders posting here. why not? YOu say people are tough on Bill Marriott or Otterson. And that they have particular merit in agreeing to "put themselves out there"? Maybe so, but have you taken a look at the venom regularly poured out at Chuck Colson, Cal Thomas, Pamela Taylor, some of the catholic bloggers etc.?.. Even Tim Russert and George Stephanopoulos got slammed for some pretty innocuous posts. In every single posting, at least 3 or 4 people slam Chuck Colson for being a convicted felon, something that he does not hide and has acknowledged many times. These people seem to think that as such, he has no right to free speech anymore. I do not agree with Colson's politics but the depth of anger he elicits is rather unbelievable to me. I have seen nothing even approaching that kind of attack on the Otterson thread. Pretty much all the catholic and evangelical panelists regularly get slammed, but still post week after week. So why do the moderators have such a hard time finding mormon panelists? Can't they take the heat?

As usual, Phaedrus has a very wise observation about the use of the word "truth." I can't pretend to answer, but I believe that God is the source of all truth. He knows all. Life is about finding and gaining truth- trying to learn what God knows and what his will is for us. Obviously our capacities are currently limited.

RTC has commented previously that additional truth is given to us as we live according to the truth that we have received, and thus we learn and progress "line upon line." It is very much a process and requires faith, and I don't think that the amount of truth that anyone has obtained can be quantified or compared to anyone else's truth.

I also enjoyed RTC's description of continually seeking truth and how, even after a trying to learn for an entire life, one can still continue to learn new truths. She also explains the important role of the Holy Ghost in teaching and testifying of truth.

Truth does not contradict itself by definition. So if one says that Christ is the Son of God, that he suffered for mankind, and that he resurrected, and another says that these things did not happen, both cannot be correct. Of course all are free to believe what they wish, and those with differing beliefs should respect one another.

I find great comfort in believing in a loving, merciful God that will make his truth available to all of his children. Some may agrue that it does not seem very loving to seem to bless some of his children more than others, but we do not understand God's ways.

Karen,

I liked your post. Thank you for sharing.

Best,

Jd1

Question for the group:

The implied definitions of the word "truth" as it is being used in these various posts are getting a little confusing for me. I struggle with the concept of absolute truth vs relativism, so in an effort to aid my understanding of what you all mean when writing of "personal truths," do you mean that there is no actual "truth," and that an infinite number of personal "truths" is plausible? Or is it your intention to say that whereas an actual "truth" underlies all phenomena, in instances in which it is subject to contention, "beliefs" about it can be referred to as a "personal truth?" I am writing quickly out of necessity, and apologize for any awkwardness of phrasing my question.

Karen:

You write: "I grew up in a civil war, I have seen enough hatred, death and destruction to last me a lifetime. I would rather live my faith then clobber people with it."

I think that the intelligence and virtue of your second sentence speaks to the wisdom you gained from experiencing those things mentioned in your first sentence. Would that it did not require the one to acheive the other. Beautiful credo you have, and thanks for sharing it.

Sincerely,

P.

RTC ~

The thing it seems you don't "get" is that Karen feels she has truth every bit as much as you do. Just as I feel I have truth just as strongly.

Grand canyon of difference is, we accept that others can find their own truths that work for them, and we can fully support them in their different truths, whereas you feel compelled to insist that unless we adhere to YOUR truth, then we are lacking in some way that you are not.

Jiminy Cricket, RTC

You should write a book.

In fact, if you just collected all of your posts on this site, it would add up to a book.

Over the next three hours I will read your last missive and get you a pithy and incredibly perceptive reply.

Luv
Henry

Dear Karen -

I suppose the two of us could hit the tennis court if that were the game of choice, but I doubt that it is, for either one of us.

And, I also imagine that we both have very similar feelings toward each other's faith and the beliefs that we hold to, in that we feel the other to be misled and would more than likely wish we could say more in hopes of a course correction. Also, I am certain that these feelings come from loving places, with no judgement.

But there is still one major difference that I am most confident in and this sets a grand canyon apart in difference between us. It is, that I honestly am convinced after our dialogues, in which you have been very clear, is on your position that you are completely satisfied with your own, personal search and find of all you need to know of god, and have no intention of looking any further. Although you did explain you desire to learn about other religions and faiths, I believe, to get along in the world... something like that.

Whereas I, love to continue to add to my knowledge of God and find that all truth, which and if is truth, then adds to truth! This is most thrilling, which I love. So I love to seek truth, no matter where it is to be found and test it against itself.

Ahhh, you say, be careful... sometimes one can be deceived? Oh, but that is where the Holy Ghost comes in and then guides in the discovery and assists in the puzzle. Awesome journey.

Karen - We are the same and we are different. My best to you as you continue to bless the lives of others, which you apparently are quite successful at:-)

And thank you for responding to my inquiries, for you have given me some followup homework of which I intend to do!
rtc

HJ -

I knew you would most likely choose to capitalize upon my closing remarks, as IF that would be written on my epitaph, considering my critic to be one who is already dead.

I quote myself...

"It is not important that one of us be right. What is important, is that we know what is true. Is this not the quest of our lives and that we be not deceived?"

Do you wish you had thought of this yourself first? By the way, what does yours say? I do not know what I would have written on mine and I am not sure If I want control of such, or if I shall leave that to others? (no suggestions please folks... lol)

I am glad you are having fun, because I do believe learning is an exciting journey and should be. Yes, I did write an extraordinary thing, that I knew you did not expect to hear or emerge from I. Even astounded?

Truly joyful!

Therefore, my pithy remarks relating to the Holy Ghost were imperative to the "game". And now, I too, must become a bit more genuine natured for further discussion on that which you have extracted to discuss.

You asked of me, " Isn't is important to accept the LDS gospel rather than the Muslim gospel so that we can achieve the highest degree of glory, splendid as those other 3-star hotels are?"

1. It is our eternal destiny to ultimately come to all truth and in so doing, become as that parent of who's we are. Each soul will have a journey different than the next in coming to that truth. I believe this is determined upon our desire to progress toward that truth and this is shown by our willingness to receive truth when it is placed before us. I believe this journey began long before we were born into this mortal existence and will continue after we die our mortal deaths.

This destiny was designed within The Plan of Salvation by God our Heavenly Father. It is universal in its ability and scope to save all of his children from physical death, as well as spiritual death, which is to be separated from him throughout eternity. This separation is a result of The Fall, that occurred in the Garden of Eden, thus the need for an at-one-ment for all of mankind who would then be born into a world where choice between good and evil would be possible, thus sin being inevitable.

2. The results of the Fall, now bringing about the necessary circumstances that the children of god needed to progress, they could exercise their agency and choose between good and evil, thus learning through their own experiences to prize the good. It also gave them the ability to receive a physical body that would also enable them in their eternal progression, in the becoming like that of their eternal parent, although not immortal, perfected and glorified.

As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive...

3. And so it was foreordained before the creation of this earth and carried out by His Only Begotten Son, born in the flesh, who is Jesus Christ, our mediator with God the Father. Both are separate and distinct individuals, who's images we are created in... their literal image and not figurative. We believe them to have glorified bodies of flesh and bone, the Holy Ghost is also a personage of spirit, which is matter, but more refined.

Jesus Christ lived a perfect life and set the perfect example for us to follow. He lovingly gave of himself as a sacrifice for all of our sins and in gethsemane made an atonement for each of the sons and daughters of God, then hung on the cross until His work was finished... on that solemn evening, he then giving up His life willingly, for us, then gave up the ghost and died, so that we might live again.

Three days later he arose, overcoming the bands of mortal death as he came forth from the tomb. And we, by accepting his sacrifice on our individual behalf, are made clean, as we follow the laws, that he too subjected himself to in obedience and humility as he was baptized by one with proper authority, and remaining clean and pure as he set a perfect example for us, thus meeting the demands of justice and enabling entrance back into the Presence of the Father.

4. The Gift of the Holy Ghost is given to members of his church as a constant companion, to be with them, to teach them all truth, and to testify of all truth and to ultimately lead them back into the presence of the Father, as summarized in my previous post.

Today, his Church is still alive and his authority is administered through the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints, through those who are called, ordained and set apart to act in His name, just as in the ancient church. As individuals are baptized and then confirmed a member, they receive The Gift of the Holy Ghost.

NOW... this is what is REQUIRED that we accept or RECEIVE. In fact, in the ordinance, the specific words are... "I say unto you, RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST" and this is done following the covenant of baptism and in conjunction with the ongoing partaking of the weekly covenant and ordinance of the Sacrament, which is a commandment.

You may read in Section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants the words of this ordinance, which is in memorial of our baptism and a renewal of our covenant to continue in our progression upward. IF we then do our part, then he will fulfill his promise to send us his spirit in the constant companionship of gift of the Holy Ghost.

D&C 84:

 45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
  46 And the Spirit gi