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I’d prefer reading in my native language, because my knowledge of your languange is no so well. But it was interesting! Look for some my links:

I’d prefer reading in my native language, because my knowledge of your languange is no so well. But it was interesting! Look for some my links:

Thanks for sharing

mogby nhuqefs xewzd edtwgprsh fdrvg tlchbg kgnrqy

THE REVELATION
OF ST JOHN THE DIVINE
CHAPTER 20

12 And I saw the adead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

We believe that according to the scriptures, we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ but also by works. In revelations, you will be judged from the Book of Life according to your works. It will not be only by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ but also from good works.

Many people read the Bible and even earn the reputation as a Bible “scholar” because of their study and writings about what they have studied. But it is actually not the reading of the Bible that is the loving Him but the doing of it as James says in chp 1:22-25.

The apostle John also tells us in his first letter, chp 2:3-5 that knowing God is about doing what He tells us to do, or obeying His commands. If we do obey His commands His love is truly made complete in us. John goes on to say that another way we demonstrate our love for Jesus is to love our brothers. In fact, this is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in His presence when our hearts condemn us.

Knowing and loving God is all about doing as He lovingly commands His children. What are His commands? To believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as He commanded us.

Finally, Jesus commanded us in the “Great Commission” to go and make disciples of all nations… and teach them to obey everything He commanded us. A disciple is a student who carries his role much further than the typical student of today. He is one who not only learns the teachings of his master but also works to become like his master. The commands of our Master are actually few; believe and love.

Fortunately He does not order us to somehow develop emotional responses, as we are prone to define love, He simply says, I love you, I will only command you to do what is good for you and for others and I will consider it love if you will just do your best to obey what I have commanded you. Believe in Me and love as I love. Know Me, love Me.

I just wanted to make a statement. I believe there's a god, though i admit i am not sure. I do know that i have felt some type of overwhelming loving presense many times in my life. I know that when i read the scriptures and pray i feel more peace in my life and i feel closer to this presense. I know that when i haved asked to be forgiven from my sins i have felt the cleansing affect of a savior.

what does all this mean, guess im still trying to figure it out.

Health in the navel, marrow in the bones, strength in the loins and the sinews. Power in the priesthood be upon me and upon my posterity through all generations of time and throughout all eternity.

John D wrote:

"I think Mormon epistemology and ontology provides one of the best answers to this question. I'll respond with a post in a few days."

{Rather than go on about my thoughts on Mormon epistemology and ontology, I decided to take my response to Pheadrus a different route. If any one is interested in hearing my thoughts on the subject of Mormon ontology and epistemology (which I doubt) let me know and I'll post them too.}

Pheadrus wrote:

"would you please explain why any Mormon would then place any weight whatsoever in what any of the church's prophets say?"

Before I begin my response, I would like to tie it back to the theme of this thread so not to get too off the subject. When Latter Day Saints say that Jesus is “living” they mean more than that he is just alive somewhere--they mean that he is actively interacting with human kind in same way he did in Biblical times. We believe that Jesus is Yahweh of the Old Testament- he is one who calls Prophets to speak in his name, and establishes a covenant people guided and held together by the ministry of these prophets. The “Good News” of what we call the Restored Gospel of Christ is both that Christ lived and died to save us from the inevitable consequences of our sins, but also that the grand narrative of God found in the Bible continues in our day. Prophets and apostles commune with God and speak in His name, angels visit the earth, miracles occur and the scriptural cannon is expanded.

These Modern Day Prophets have been inspiring people to be disciples of Christ and maintaining a unified covenant people of the Lord for nearly two hundred years. They have said many things and practically been followed around with a stenographer everywhere they’ve gone. This vast and rich record has been exploited by those who are attempting to demonstrate that the claim that God has called Prophets today are false.

There are within this records occasional statements which injure modern sentiment, Mormon and non-Mormon alike. This is inevitable when you have people who are from different times and places, and who, consequently, have absorbed different assumptions about the nature of reality.

The point I wish to make is that non-believers expect more from these men than their mantel affords them. These are not embodied gods, but rather Prophets and Apostles after the Biblical tradition. The Biblical record demonstrates that God did not culturally reprogram His Prophets and Apostles into children of the enlightenment. For example Moses, Abraham, Peter and Paul did not share our modern abhorrence to slavery, and patriarchal dominance. Because I personally believe that God does abhor these things, I must explain how God speaks through these individuals while at the same time looking past their cultural baggage.

In Social Work discourse there is a saying ‘start where the client is.’ Which is what the Lord must do with us, he cannot give us all truth at once:

“For precept must be upon precept…line upon line…here a little, and there a little” (Isaiah 28:10).

In our day Jesus has said:

“these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.” (D&C 1:24).

The Lord must work within our weakness (opinions, lame brained ideas, personality defects, limited intelligence) and language (which necessarily includes our categories of thought and taken for granted assumptions) to even communicate with us.

This is a large part of the Prophetic fallibility I was talking about.

So why should we give any weight to what the Prophets say? Because despite this limitation, the Lord still speaks to His people through them.

Followers of Paul and Peter perhaps did not become enlightened with regards to slavery, but that did not prevent them from learning many principles of Christian discipleship and the only name under which they could enter the Kingdom of God.

Modern Prophet’s role is to point the way to Christ. It is their calling prepare and sanctify the covenant people of the Lord for blessings in Eternity.

The Lord calls other people to fulfill other missions. God’s work extends beyond the church and He has servants outside of it. I believe He called people like Martin Luther King Jr., George Washington, John Wesley, Charles Darwin etc., to fulfill different missions than that of a Prophet after the Biblical tradition.

I, for one, am not bothered that a Prophet’s role is so limited. Their words and teachings have given me the abundant life. Life following their counsel is radiant and beautiful. The Holy Spirit bears witness to my Spirit that they speak for Jesus. Their words bring me to Him and I thus partake of His peace.

“If there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ”

(Mormon, Title page of the Book of Mormon).

I used to believe the same things the evangelical Christians are saying on this website. That the Latter Day Saints were not Christian, and that they meant to deceive by pointing out the things we all agree upon and hiding the things that are more unusual to evangelicals in order to be more mainstream. I was raised in a Christian home, went to baptist and community churches my whole life, was born again, accepting Christ as my Savior. I went to a Bible college for a year. My father and mother were missionaries with the General Baptist Conference in the Philippines for 8 years, and then became pastors in their older age. They set a very good example for me of what it meant to serve the Lord. I, however, reached a low point in my life about 7 years ago and no Christian came forward to help me. The missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints came. They took me in. Invited me to their church to investigate and gave me a Book of Mormon. I read it with a closed mind at first, then an amazing thing happened one day as I was reading. I started to cry. I was believing it. I then read all I could to understand this book. I started going to the LDS church and noticed the families together sitting. The children were well behaved, the teenagers were dressed appropriately and all had a sweetness I had not ever seen in my growing up years in church. I watched "Special Witnesses of Christ" and listened to the Quorum of the Twelve give their testimonies, and I knew these were men of God leading this Church! I was baptised in 2001 and you know what happened? Our Heavenly Father and his Son are still with me, only now I have the gospel in all its fullness, wheras before the light was dim and I had no idea that it was until someone showed me it could be brighter. I have also learned Latter Day Saints don't strive to be mainstream. They are very different and unusual. Their family life is anything but mainstream, and that is why their lives stood out from the rest for me. It was this testimony of the Savior by faith and love that led me ever closer to Him. I went to the LDS Easter production in Arizona and Christian people were holding up picket signs protesting the performance. I was outraged at first, but the people my husband and I went with were at peace. Being members their whole lives, they were used to it. Didn't say a word about it or comment. They just passed by, anxious to get a seat to see the wonderful performance. Yes, these are the peculiar people, called out of darkness into his marvelous light, and I love their God and their Savior. Thank you for the encouraging column. The fact that Jesus has risen brings forgiveness and hope of eternal life to all who believe on Him!

"It has served us well. This myth of Christ"

-Pope Leo X

I have grown up a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe Christ to be our Redeemer and Savior. He lived and died so that we might live again with Him and our Father. Do I believe they are separate? Of course I do. To me, it is much less confusing to believe in God the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as 3 separate individuals. Yes, the bible explicitly states that Christ and The Father are one. Sects can argue all they want on whether that is in a physical nature or not. I believe as Jesus taught in John 17 during his great intecessory prayer. He prayed that his disciples, those who did and would believe on Him would be "one" as He and His Father are one. I do not believe that means that we are all going to congeal together anytime during this life or the life to come. We are individuals, as was Christ and His Father. If they are not separate, how could Christ have asked for a separate way to save us of the Father? Nevertheless he followed his Fathers will. How could he claim His Father had forsaken Him? Was he in fact praying just to Himself? Of course not, the thought not only is illogical but confusing. Obviously His prayer was not for show, but a true cry from the anguish which He was feeling. Christ when He was ressurrected told Mary to relay to his disciples that He would go to His God and their God. That sounds separate to me. Yes, Christ told one of the Apostles that If they had seen Him they had seen the Father. In Hebrews Chapter one it says he was "made" and had the express image of His Father. Would God the Father be made? Those who attack our beliefs and then try to make out that they know more than those who profess the faith are quite misguided.

Do we believe that God is literally the Father of Jesus Christ? Yes! Any claims on how this was accomplished are pure speculation, I can attest that because there is no teaching that I have heard that says, "this is how it happened." God is not confined to the same mode of creation that we are limited to. In His way and abiding some eternal law that would allow Him to Father Jesus, yet for mary to still be a virgin, Christ was formed. The scriptures say in Luke 1:35 that yes, the Holy Ghost would come upon her, and the "Power of the Highest" would overshadow her. Last I checked, the Holy Ghost was considered the 3rd part of the trinity or Godhead in most any religion that believes in them. It is not the "Highest" for that is our Heavenly Father. And for those who have any argument about saying who the father is, if they believe in the 3 in 1 doctrine, it wouldn't make a difference! Christ would then be the Son of God the Father, himself, and the Holy Ghost all at once!

Christ lives. God does as well as does the Holy Ghost. They live separately and independently of eachother as concerned to their physical nature and their spirits. But the oneness that is so often spoken of, is that they are always 100% in harmony in their purpose, which is helping us to achieve eternal life.

Also, for those who claim that the words outside of the Bible are unfounded and should not be a source of faith, I ask this. Why then should we place faith in what the apostles wrote after the time of Christ based on inspiration? How do we know that they all kept the faith and did not slide in subtle yet false teachings? How do we even know that our interpretations are correct? Through faith of course! In fact, the only known revelation in our day and time coming directly from God, claiming that the Bible as we have it does in fact contain the word of God, is found in revelation from a Mormon Prophet. Quite honestly, without a direct statement from God, it is just faith believing that correct scriptures were included in the bible.

Christ himself did not come down and compile the bible, but it was voted on by men of faith as most of us here are. Of course none of us is perfect, nor anyone but Christ will be while we live on this earth. So we rely that they were guided by faith. In no place in the bible, does it state that God would never speak to his children again. In fact, in the book of Revelations, it speaks of Prophets in the last days helping in Jerusalem. If they were to discourse to the people there, would not their words be worthy of being recorded? The only thing remotely close to saying that nothing should be added or taken away, comes at the end of the Book of Revelation, and refers only to the Book of Revelation. The Bible was not yet compiled, nor was it ever compiled in exact chronological order. Most experts believe that Revelations was written before most of Johns other books.

But those who choose to believe differently, will continue to believe differently. The reason is because you can't prove faith based on fact. God prepared it that way so that we would need to be "believers" to be saved. He never said, those who are able to prove every jot and tittle of the scriptures by scientific evidence and historical evidence will be saved. No, he makes it simpler, so that all who will hear and can understand, might be saved. I hope not to have offended anyone, nor was my intention to try to sway anyone or convince them of differently. My statements are to note that though others find our beliefs completely unfounded by scriptural analysis, there are in fact scriptures that give us basis to our faith. The rest is as I said. Faith.

Dear Pheadrus,

"Ignoring the circularity of this statement for now, would you please explain why any Mormon would then place any weight whatsoever in what any of the church's prophets say?"

Thanks for your response to my quote. I think it was helpful, as it expressed what many were probably thinking of as they read my post. First, I will give it to you, my statement is quite circular. It’s charitable of you to "ignore...[it] for now." I also found your tongue and cheek interpretation of the principle of ongoing revelation to be food for thought.

Your question is poignant and it deserves a well thought out answer. I think, as you suggested, it's not just a Mormon problem, but it plagues all revelatory religions. How does one respect the integrity of divine communication while at the same time avoiding dogmatism and inflexibility? I think Mormon epistemology and ontology provides one of the best answers to this question. I'll respond with a post in a few days. I hope you have a great Christmas.

After reading all the fighting and trolling here, I take comfort in the words of the Savior as recorded in the testimony of Matthew:

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/5/11-16

Pardon me, I meant to say "mapped by science," as opposed to "aped."

And as for Eliot, Mary, geat poet/poor cosmologist.

"I should have been a pair of ragged claws, scuttling across the floors of silent seas." Truth is, we were.

To Mary:
You write:

"The universe is not rational. The universe is not even very knowable. And what we do know will probably be revised in, say, ten years time."

If mankind had followed this mindset throughout history we would, indeed, know nothing of the universe. History proves you wrong, although those who think like you apparently do, have acted in ways to greatly retard man's quest for knowledge throughout recorded history. The universe is quite clearly rational, and we have come to understand it, progressively so, through rationality itself.

You are correct in your supposition that much of what is currently thought correct about the nature of the univese will be revised over the next ten years. But, that is the beauty of the rational, scientific method. In an honest search for truth, actual regard for that which is sought trumps the narcissistic need to hang onto ideas which have been discredited. Such cannot be said for religion, in its view of nature, painting itself into a corner by clinging to the supposed accuracy of ancient thought, which, bit by bit, has been exposed as primitive indeed. Thus, religion does truly fear the encroachment of scientific understanding, as Jefferson so famously said, "like witches fear the coming of dawn." The domain of te supernatral is merely territory not yet aped by science. But, we are working on that, and bit by bit, that corner religion has painted itself into is getting smaller.

I don't believe in any of the crap being posted here.
I was just a carpenter and was killed for expressing a different opinion. I never claimed to anything but ... However, if want to get killed and beome a legend like me get on the wrong side of George. All those have been victims of George may become Gods or Sons of Gods one day.
You too can achieve this status of god if you are not a Republican.

May Grorge grant you your wish.

Dear David,

The universe is not rational. The universe is not even very knowable. And what we do know will probably be revised in, say, ten years time.

Religion is simpler and its form more beautiful than mathematics, if only because the very advanced math necessary to understand even basic cosmological pricipals is not amenable to most, while the beauty of the music and art and poetry--and is not religion celebrated with music and art and poetry?--are available to all.

St Augustine of Hippo wrote that time and the universe were brought forth together, that God--who is timeless--created time itself along with the universe. Did He then enter time--the timeless entering time--through the person of Jesus? These mysterious words are understandable to us, although maybe not comprehesive, what the Buddhist call a koan.

Anyway,we can talk ourselves into circles on the matter. The poets were better. Here is some Eliot on time:

Words move, music moves
Only in time; but that which is only living
Can only die. Words, after speech, reach
Into the silence. Only by the form, the pattern,
Can words or music reach
The stillness, as a Chinese jar still
Moves perpetually in its stillness.
Not the stillness of the violin, while the note lasts,
Not that only, but the co-existence,
Or say that the end precedes the beginning,
And the end and the beginning were always there
Before the beginning and after the end.
And all is always now. Words strain,
Crack and sometimes break, under the burden,
Under the tension.....
Decay with imprecision will not stay in place,
Will not stay still. Shrieking voices
Scolding,mocking, or merely charrering,
Always assail them. The Word in the desert
Is most attacked by voices of temptation...
...............................................
Love is itself unmoving,
Only the cause and end of movement,
Timeless, and undesiry
Except in the aspect of time
.................................
Sudden in a shaft of unlight
Even while the dust moves
There rises the hidden laughter
Of children in the foliage
Quick now, here, now, always--
Ridiculous the waste sad time
Stretching before and after.

TS Eliot, "Burnt Norton", V.

To Jan, who "doesn't care a thing about history and/or facts"

OK--we differ a lot here, I believe that the history of a person or entity comprises the person him/her/itself. However, you err when CITING history you haven't even bothered to learn.

What happened was that after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West (it would continue for another millennium in the East as Byzantium), Christianity--as imposed by the uninvited Roman occupiers--in Celtic, Frankish and Anglo Saxon lands crumbled even more quickly than did the sumptuous Roman villas. The idea bouncing around these forums that after the fall of Rome the Christianity of Western Europe was spread by the sword is worse than ignorant: it is laughably, palpably false. Whose sword, pray tell, was it? Rome was gone. Byzantium was satisfied with its empire in the east. The Scandinavians were pagan, as were the Franks, as were the Saxons, as were the Celts.

The story of its rebirth by peaceful means,the story of those early missionaries--Sts Benedict, Columba and Patrick--is to me quite wonderful (I first wrote miraculous but I won;'t use that word). And strange, very strange.

"He is our King, our Lord, our Master, the living Christ, who stands on the right hand of His Father."

This is a very clear statement, which is not surprising, as it was delivered by a living prophet.

How convenient.

Eat all you want and vomit afterwards to avoid the consequence.

And sin all you want and someone who suffered has paid the price.

Jesus Christ had a message from God, doubt - but those who are too weak to follow it have distorted that message to avoid personal responsibility, including practicing polytheism unknowingly by confusing the worship of God with the worship of man.

Sin all you want and your sins have been accounted for.Eat all you want and vomit afterwards.

Wake up and take accountability for your actions before it's too late, and do yourself a favor.
Thank you.

Apparently the Washington Post has established itself as another religious (christian) newspaper, along with Rev. Moon's Times. My God! Is the New York Times next? The religious hypothesis on the nature of the universe and human existence is not worthy of serious consideration. Yet the religious far outnumber atheists, especially in these United States, a product of the Enlightenment (which could be called "The Enlightenment that Failed"). Why? The answer lies in the evolution of human psychology and in the evolution of religion itself. Religion evolved, along with government with which it is closely allied, as a method of societal developement and control. My guess is that it arose along with male dominance among our long-gone pre-sapient ancestors. Tribal leaders, for practical, political reasons, were probably the first gods. Religion has no doubt survived as a mechanism to serve some tribal purpose. Perhaps it provided, and still provides, motivation to keep up the struggle to survive in a hard world. There is infinitely more truth and beauty in rational explanations of the universe, than religious mumbo-jumbo can offer. I wish you all a Merry Christmas!

Mercy - all you fellow bloggers:
First: A high handed salute to the Washington Post, to the creation of On Faith and to the moderators that do such a splendid job.
Second: The diversity of panelists commenting on weekly topics
offers a most candid and literal look at religious/spiritual/secular views. I use to pay money to get Karen Armstrong's commentary - this when I bought her books. The same re other authors. I view it as a privileged opportunity to scan this site.
Third: For a minute I assumed Otteson was the target of naysayers galore and then I noted Susan Joacoby had a mere 342 responses. Energy for and against secularists trumps that of Mormon bashing?
Fourth: Otteson and Cal Thomas (mercy) offer the same New Testament, Matthew 16:13-16 commentary in their remark. Cal Thomas - his political commentary - in my view - often has an air of moral superiority - but I'll not use this site to malign or mix political with seasonal religious tone.
Fifth: Faith - humans often use the term Hope, some use Faith in describing circumstance surrounding relationships with other humans, partners, children, healing, nature, sun, and stars. Some humans offer the term Faith in a religious or spiritual setting. If use of the term in one setting is so easy and accepted, why such castigation and outright hostility by so many if some humbly offer that faith is also part and parcel of their religious/spiritual view?
Sixth: Diversity and pluarality of religious views. Folk seem to be so cloistered and caught, and self-absorbed in their own private view on religious/spiritual matter. What is so strange and absurd to one is apparantly natural and normal to another?
Seventh: Deadly Sins; casting the first stone; folk like Ottenson, or Jacoby for that matter, take the time and effort to cast a reasoned response and then BAM, the naysayers and malcontents start tossing stone after stone; and then in Ottenson's case, disregard the tenor and tone of his piece and launch a frontal attack against his aligned religious organization.
Amazing the ease that so many have in casting these stones.
Civil critical dialouge is approppriate, but mean spirited and vitriolic attacks - cause for wonder - where and why the voracious negative energy?
Last: To those of us cast in the Christian theater, remembrance of the birth of Christ -whether Dec 25 matches a close approximation or not - is a most sacred event. What's sacred and special to you naysayers, secularists (or Mormon bashers)? Whatever it be - I won't mock it, and so take care, as so many of you seek/wish to torture those that claim a "faithful" belief in a God and/or Jesus Christ.

Anyone who followed the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels would live a beautiful and good life, very similar to a life based on the words of the Buddha.

But anyone who followed the preachings of most "Christian" churches throughout most of history would practice slavery, violently oppress women and children, persecute people of other religions, and fight wars that were blessed (and often fomented) by the church of his choice.

Christians have this incredible God of love and forgiveness whom they believe walked among us and left magnificent words to live by. Why can't they concentrate on his one consistent message, of love and kindness and forgiveness? When many Americans still see George Bush as God's annointed leader of a righteous nation, you know that they need to get back to the heart of the Gospels and leave the rest of the (often weird, scary and contradictory) Bible behind.

To combine the words of two great letter-writers, St. Paul & Keats: faith, hope and charity--that is all ye know, and all ye need to know.

A line of thought is the non-existence of a historical Jesus Christ. I believe this idea best fits the evidence, of which an important facet is the totally lacking contemporary documentation from the time during which Jesus Christ is said to have lived. The Gospels describe events which had to have taken place two and three generations previously.

16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
25. "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
26. "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to ((Allah)) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
Quran: chapter Mary

1. Say: He is God,the One.
2. God is He on Whom all depend.
3. He begets not, nor was He begotten.
4. And there is none co-equal or comparable unto him.

Quran :112

Strange religion this LDS: lots of talk about how many wifes, how old they should be, who is the leader, new explanations about Jesus, etc. Religion is always created by the believers and never the other way around (there is no "God"). As such I'm always nervous when talking to these LDSers. They are weird even though they fake being normal.

Somebody here talked about Babel as the biblical example of failure. I spent several months in Hilla, Iraq (formerly Babylon) and ofcourse saw the Tower Of Babel. I liked the place, still in good shape - in fact everything around it pretty well destroyed including people being blown up by other people. As such I think the Tower of Babel should be a symbol of success: still standing while surrounded by misery.

Reading the multitude of comments inspired by Michael Otterson's column, "The Living Son of the Living God," only confirms my belief: THE VERY IDEA OF GOD STEMS FROM THE MIND OF MAN.

You have your idea, I have mine. Thank God we are still free to choose. I hope this will always remain so.

The LDS talk about the grace of Christ as if they demonstrate it. The two case examples are racism and physical torture of homosexuals. The Mormon prophet, Spencer Kimball, referred to light skinned Navajo kids taken from the reservation to live in Momon homes in Utah. The infallable prophet of God mentioned how "white and delightsome" the kids had become since they had converted to Mormonism demonstrating the racism of the church's curse of god dogma. The second example is past church treatment of their gay members, some under age. The curing process included the showing of homosexual and hetrosexual pornography at a lab in the basement of the student union at BYU and administering painful and tissue destroying electroshock therapy for what was deemed as an innappropriate erectile response measured by a sensor applied to the Brother in question. These examples are not the kind of grace Christ yearns for to be demonstrated in his name.

Christianity sounds like magic to me.

So...God created us and the world so he could test us, mess with us, then kill everyone of us? Like a game where he's the only player and everyone else is a pawn? Is he just really really bored? Vasillating between being fed up with his toys and micromanaging each and every life? No other Gods to hang out with?

Imagine how contantly peaceful the world would be if all Christians traded in their submission to magic and legend for just the Golden Rule.

Mr. Simenson:

I don't know who you are attempting to put on with this "evidence for the BOM thing." There are NO reputable archaeologists who support the bulk of what is written in the BOM, none. And at BYU, when you challenge the church's sanitized account of its history enough, you get fired for it. Ask D. Michael Quinn, former professor what happens when you write the truth about Joseph Smith's fascination with occult practices and symbols, etc. And that is just one example. There are many many others. This does not make Mormonism any worse than other religions, just no different.

Anyone who wants to get an unbiased account of J Smith's life, read "No Man Knows My History," by Fawn Brody.

For all the thousands of words prompted by "On Faith" in this and other collections of commments on "Big Questions," we still have not seen a "believer" of any stripe state why she/he is a "believer." This can not be for any lack of reasons; they populate a large literature that has been with us for a long long time.

To date, we have the atheists and agnostics who seem to unite around the dictum: "show me the money." Then we have the believers who shout out, "It all is written in the Bible," without saying why they believe the Bible is a reliable source of facts. Maybe we'll get there if these discussion go on for a few years and folks become tired of the current exchanges.

So, carry on with my hope that for each of you 2007 is better than 2006, however you may choose to weigh the two.

Yes Jesus Lives. Just like Elvis lives.
Just like Santa lives.And the Easter Bunny.
They're all part of our culture and live on
as IDEAS. But puhlease get real. Jesus has been
dead for 2000 years,assuming he lived in the first place.

My father was raised as a Protestant Christian. He forced us to go to Sunday bible schools, christian Elementary and Highschools, later Church every sunday, etc. He was a religious dictator knowing "right from wrong." My mother came from a non-believing middle class family and her parents were shocked when she married this man. She tried hard to become a believer, first accepted the "fact" that Jesus mother Mary was a virgin, then later accepted the Minister saying that actually Mary was married to Joseph. As time progressed over the many years of their unhappy marriage she lost all faith and told my father to go to Church by himself. Me and my brothers and sister quit religion the moment we left home. Also, my father, throughout his entire life, happened to be frightened about dying first. We did not understand why because he believed in Heaven. My mother then died suddenly at age 65 (my father then being 70). Three months later he committed suicide. He was suddenly frightened of life. All these years he had never grown up. He truly was a child but that of his wife and not of some god. His Church refused to bury him.

Duhhh...that some people wrote and said the book of Mormon was true makes it so. When Jesus was upon this earth, America was populated by human beings, the people who lived there before the white man came. I don't know who this Adam Smith was, and Dan I don't know what you're smoking to write what you did...but whatever it was, I want some, and trust me I wouldn't be writing anything.

Or Visit this website:
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=354

Also see the following books if you really want to know where Mormon's are coming from:

1) 1000 evidences for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints: 500 evidences in support of the Book of Mormon by Allen H Richardson

2) In Search of Cumorah: New Evidences for the Book of Mormon From Ancient Mexico
by David A Palmer

3)The Book Of Mormon Vindicated: Scriptural Evidences Of The Divine Authenticity Of The Book Of Mormon by Elder I. M. Smith

4) Lehi in the Wilderness: 81 New Documented Evidences That the Book of Mormon Is a True History by George Potter and Richard Wellington

Mormons are not deemphasising the Book of Mormon, and there is evidence for it. Joseph Smith was not a pedophile. If you want to know about him then go to 1st hand accounts not the many lies about him on the internet. You may find somethings that are disturbing, but you may also find that he did a lot of good things in his life. He helped others in need, loaned money that he needed for food, gave away a horse to a stranger who needed it, and other things including healing the sick etc. He walked for miles in the rain to repay a debt he had promised to repay by midnight. He forgave others readily. He was a polygamist, but for what it is worth, it tore him up inside. He felt guilty for it, but truly believed it was God's command. Please see "Rough Stone Rolling" and "The Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt" (Pratt was well acquainted with Joseph Smith).
About the Book of Mormon. If you want to evaluate the evidence for it rather than just the evidence that is against it (which I admit does exist) please read Refuting the Critics: Evidences of the Book of Mormon's Authenticity by Michael T. Griffith OR read
Little known evidences of the Book of Mormon by Brenton G Yorgason. They are on Amazon.com.

@WashingtonPost
Something doesn't make sense here to put this subject in the newspaper. Hard to explain, but something ain't clicking.

the washington post has done us a peculiar favor in providing this venue to create a discourse. and what an artifact it is! a mirror for us to know ourselves a little better. the legacy our religions have deposited in us bear peculiar fruit indeed. after all these years, all the exhortations, all the spilled ink and blood, we still squabble and quibble and nitpick and hate each other with all the vigor of children in the schoolyard, crowds around the gallows, uniformed fanatics marching to their doom. could one be mistaken in concluding that the curse of babel lives on in our religious tongues? could one not wish we'd ALL shut up?

There is a difference between religion and faith. Faith is the belief in something, without necessarily having seen or touched it physically. I have faith that my family will be there for me in times of need, for example. I base my faith on what my parents taught me, what I have learned as I have lived in this world, what I seen and read from history, and what I have come to conclude from all those factors. My personal faith is based on knowing, without seeing, but also experience. I know my family will be there for me, because they have in the past. I personally believe in God and Jesus, because in my experience, there is simply too much reason to believe otherwise. Faith is personal, to me, and not subject to be changed by debate from those who disagree, simply because they disagree. Likewise, I don't expect others to change simply because I believe the way I do. Thus, it is, in my humble opinion, wrong to debase and diminish others because they don't believe as I do -- and it is wrong for them to do the same to me.
Religion on the other hand is the organized practice of faith. Because it is organized and operates under human hands, it is subject to human frailties -- hate, greed, envy, lust -- you name it. Those in religion who use it to further their own human interests don't have faith in my mind, they simply use it to further their needs. Religion can do that -- unfortunately it is all too human. On the other hand, religion can also help the poor by feeding and clothing them, visit the sick and shut ins, see that children are cared for, comfort others in time of need and the like. Once again, it simply reveals the human part of religion - there is good too.
I always try to remember the warning from our Lord -- Judge not, lest yeah be judged. I believe, so I do -- if you do not, OK. Thats your choice. Simply extend to me the same courtesy.

Despite our significant differences of opinion, I want to wish each of you a very Merry Christmas. May we all love one another.

AA..your initials tell it all. Ass'oles anonymous.

jesus was some moron who got himself killed at a young age. get over it we should all move on and focu on false messaiahs who are living rather than flase messaiahs who have died.

Jan, I know you not, but what I do know, is that I love you. You understand what Jesus was all about.

About 3 years ago did some work in Hilla and Najaf, Iraq. Still safe then. Worked right in between the Eufrat and Tigris Rivers and ofcourse kept my eyes out for Adam and Eve (or rather just Eve). Didn't see them (her), at least not that I know of - the women there were overly dressed and I only knew if I saw their front or back when they moved (explained this to my wife by email and she felt bad for these ladies and, yes, even for me somewhat). When back here in the US I tried to explain that to some lovy-dovy Christians down the street. They got angry and said that paradise place is not in Iraq but somewhere in the Carolinas (I'm not joking). What I'm trying to say is religion is fine and so is Disneyland. Got it!?

To all you non-believers:

Not everyone who believes that Jesus is God knows Jesus is God, but there is nothing inherent to the notion of that belief that makes it impossible for someone to know Jesus is God.

To say no one knows Jesus is God presupposes that it has been proven that Jesus is not God, for if Jesus is God then it is possible that he has revealed this fact to men and women in the past and to individuals that now live on the earth today.

Furthermore, someone does know whether Jesus is the Son of God - God knows. And if Jesus is God, Jesus knows and if Jesus is God then St. Paul knows and every deceased saint knows as well. Most likely all saints living today know as well. In fact there may be people who are not saints that know that Jesus is God. It may no longer be a matter of faith. Anyone who has seen the incorruptible bodies of some of the saints in France may suspect that Jesus may be God.

If Jesus is God then everyone in heaven, hell, and purgatory knows that Jesus is the Son of God and since that's probably around 100 billion people then far more know than those who don't know.

Knowing the truth is good, but it won't get you to heaven. The key is to know that Jesus is Lord, Adonai, Yahweh, Allah, and then change your life based on his witness of the Father's abiding love. Even the devil knows that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God who came to redeem us all.

It is up to us to accept the gift and live out our lives in order to be saved - but Jesus has redeemed every man, woman, and child as well as those that were never born.

God has provided each us with the law of charity which he has written in our hearts - if we act according to that we can be saved. Every person on the face of the earth some day will come to know whether Jesus Christ is God.

Merry Christmas

to Jim, who wrote: "For those of us who believe in Jesus Christ, there is no greater sadness than to observe those who profess not to believe in the savior."

For those of us that actually use our brains to figure stuff out in the world, there is no greater sadness than those who believe in religion with blind faith.

I'm not professing(in the sense of insincerity) - I'm telling you I don't believe in your religion, your alleged savior, etc. It's your faith, it's your view of the world - believe it or not, I put more faith in my understanding of the world than a carpenter from 2000+ years ago.

Pathetic that adults in this day in age can claim such absolutes based on blind faith.

Why is The Washington Post publishing religious propaganda?

To repeat, Vic:
Christians promise us, in the face of three major divisions and about 50 Protestant denominations, that they (and ONLY they) have The Truth.
It's all absolutely LAUGHABLE, and you've just made my point brilliantly.

Here's what it sounds like to adults--
Mormon: I'm a Christian
Christian: No you're not!
Mormon: Yes I am.

Don't y'all have better things to do?