All Comments (30)

Dr. Marty,
I appreciate your candor and insight into the relationship of faith and politics. I hope that you will help to share some of the truths shown in Bill Moyers' excellent interview with Pastor Wright on Fri. 4/25-- it certainly showed better the context of the excerpts from his sermons.
That is where I also learned more about your encouragement of his church's mission and involvement in many very worthwhile and active ministries. May God Bless you AND Dr. Wright AND Senator Obama --- and the sensitive reporting of Bill Moyers.

Athena quotes me:
"Would it be alright for Huckabee to belong to a church where the mantra is "Unashamedly Christian and Unashamedly White"?"

Then she answers:
"You mean he doesn't?"

No, he doesn't, Athena. Huckabee is a Southern Baptist as are many African Americans. The Southern Baptist Church's membership is not restricted to whites.

Check it out!

PS My apologies for answering so late. I had forgotten my post here.
Thank you.

"Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects."

Concerned:

What percentage of NT scholars believe this? And what's up with Crossan's dating of the Gospel of Thomas?

"Would it be alright for Huckabee to belong to a church where the mantra is "Unashamedly Christian and Unashamedly White"?"

You mean he doesn't?

I believe religion and politics must be seperated from each other. Mixing religion with politics degrades both the politics and the religion. If politicians put their money where thier mouth is the end result will reflect the character, beliefs and the values of the politician in question. Politicians should talk about the specifics of the work they plan to carry out to improve the lives of the people if they are elected. Religious rethorics simply trivilize a very complicated issue.

From Obama's speech of October, 2002.

"I don't oppose all wars.
After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this Administration's pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such a tragedy from happening again."

Did Obama "willingly take up arms . . . to prevent such a tragedy from happening again"? Did he volunteer to join the military and volunteer to go fight in Afghanistan to help rid that poor country of the Taliban and Osama bin Ladin as he so "courageously" stated in the phony speech of October 2002?

Further, Obama says:
"But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history."

Clueless!
In 2003, prior to the Coalition invasion of Iraq, the Iraqi armed forces numbered 389,000 plus the paramilitary Fedayeen Saddam which numbered 44,000 and military reserves of 650,000.
Saddam had "an estimated 13 infantry divisions plus ten mechanized and armored divisions as well as some special forces units."

The numbers and info. above comes from Wikipedia.

As far as not being an imminent and direct threat to his neighbors, maybe Obama had never heard of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait or Iraq's invasion of Iran in 1980. Saddam was a threat even to his own people. But Obama had never realized that or even have a clue.

But Obama does show some Chamberlainian diplomatic "acumen" when he stated that Saddam would eventually fall away into the dustbin of history like other petty dictators.
Like Castro, Hitler, Kim ll-sung, and Kim Jong-il I suppose.

I don't think that I would rely on Obama's judgement to protect the American people.

Would it be alright for Huckabee to belong to a church where the mantra is "Unashamedly Christian and Unashamedly White"?

FtloC,

So it was a typical Obama Speech. Long on verbiage short on everything else.

I find it interesting that historically, when a political appointee/candidate has been a member of an "all male," “all white," or any other sort of exclusive organization, deemed to be politically incorrect, they are subjected to calls by liberals for them to step down, resign, etc. Now we have a candidate who is openly a member of an exclusive religious organization yet the liberal media has kept their mouths shut.
Sounds like a double standard to me. The fact that slavery existed, or racism has been or is a problem does not make it right for a reverse racism in a church unless that church is claiming that only their race is accepted by their god. IF that is what the Trinity United Church of Christ practices either in fact or by decree then the liberal media should call for Obama to withdraw from the campaign.

Dear Halucinagenic,
The canditates need to spend more time discussing the flaws in our politics vs embracing some form of it. You, my friend, have much too much time on your hands and far too much to prove. Let me guess...under 5'?

Athena,

I agree but if they are going to discuss religion better that they note the flaws in such.

I would prefer the candidates talk more about the economy, foreign policy, resolving the Iraq mess, catching Osama Bin Laden, and other issues rather than "deflawing" any religion. Leave that for the religious leaders to decide. I'd rather not hear any "God talk" from the candidates for a secular office at all.

Ooops, make that "a candidate should".

A candidate shown spend more time discussing the flaws in religion vs. embracing some form of it.

A synopsis of the flaws in the founders and foundations of the major religions for those that have not seen them before or did not take the time to look:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven,warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

Make It Work - well, the very right wing judicial watch almost got it right but left off one of the biggest violators of all, Sen. John McCain. Could it be that you might be supporting McCain??

Surely you don't think that sleight of hand is going to work on democrats, do you?? McCain is pimping for every right wing cause under the sun in order to ensure his position with the conservative right.

Now this, now that, now anything or nothing - that's his credo....the flipflopper's flipflopper - just PLEASE elect me!! Pitiful and disgusting at the same time. He really belongs on the judicial watch list with Larry Craig, given all his unnatural posturing and bending over........

Now he's got uber-libertarian ex-Texas Senator Phil Gramm as his financial advisor....Ron Paul has got nothing on this guy. Flat taxes, lower taxation schedule for the rich, the end of social entitlements, more $$ for them and way less for you and me....but a very protected Defense budget - something the relatively naive Ron Paul apparently didn't grasp in his version of libertarianism.

Compared to McCain, Obama is indeed a saint.....but then even Hillary looks good by comparison.

Hey LH,
Good question. Our country, it seems, has tried to be "less-loyal" and more populist. The youth vote turn-out has demonstrated that it is still quit possible to sustain a two party system but our youth will and are changing the face of both parties.
It seems to me that the Republicans ire at the Democrats giving away all their hard earned money to "charity" programs and the Democrats "using" free hand-outs and promised delivery out of bondage (without working) into the promised land in exchange for votes and tenure...
The Democrats deplore the Republicans for rewarding hard work and hope to punish the wealthy for being prudent, hard-working and wise by taxing the dudely out of them. Never mind that these Republicans in their greed and quest for more, more, more are hopping from one unsuspecting country to the next teaching them the marvels of capitolistic greed while abandoning the middle class American workers.
I personally think we need a new party and it would be run by the survivors of 9/11. Perhaps they could show us what really matters after all. Not Reaganomics (trickels that never make it down because of all the special interests and crafty politians)Not the Democrats unrealistic ideals of equality but, just perhaps, sober honesty on a scale that demonstrates to the American people how to live beyond greed and corruption. Give me a government committed to absolute honest--I don't care what brand they wear. Could it be that the level of cynical mistrust in this Country will move more young people and old alike toward a brand free political, religious and economic society?

Hey LH,
Good question. Our country, it seems, has tried to be "less-loyal" and more populist. The youth vote turn-out has demonstrated that it is still quit possible to sustain a two party system but our youth will and are changing the face of both parties.
It seems to me that the Republicans ire at the Democrats giving away all their hard earned money to "charity" programs and the Democrats "using" free hand-outs and promised delivery out of bondage (without working) into the promised land in exchange for votes and tenure...
The Democrats deplore the Republicans for rewarding hard work and hope to punish the wealthy for being prudent, hard-working and wise by taxing the dudely out of them. Never mind that these Republicans in their greed and quest for more, more, more are hopping from one unsuspecting country to the next teaching them the marvels of capitolistic greed while abandoning the middle class American workers.
I personally think we need a new party and it would be run by the survivors of 9/11. Perhaps they could show us what really matters after all. Not Reaganomics (trickels that never make it down because of all the special interests and crafty politians)Not the Democrats unrealistic ideals of equality but, just perhaps, sober honesty on a scale that demonstrates to the American people how to live beyond greed and corruption. Give me a government committed to absolute honest--I don't care what brand they wear. Could it be that the level of cynical mistrust in this Country will move more young people and old alike toward a brand free political, religious and economic society?

Terra Gazelle:

Think Obama will actually try to do that, separate church and state? That will call for the state to NOT recognize any religion as such,, or,, recognize anyone who claims a religion be h/er congregation totally empty. Net result must be tax reform. Either tax churches because the government MUST recognize them as such or allow all to claim to be churches and thus get tax relief.

Obama is talking revolution. With revolution there MUST be land reform. Taxing church property as any other business qualifies as land reform.

If the evangelicals were smart they would clamor aboard his band wagon. Methinks JJ is a 'closet' evangelical. When he starts soliciting 'vote for Obama" we'll know the "Rush" is on and Anne Coulter is hiding in the balcony.

If you haven't got a penny, a hey penny will do. If you haven't got a hey penny, God bless you. If you do have a hey penny put it in the hat and forget getting God's blessing. Moral: Wanna get blessed? Don't give them money not even a hey penny.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-announces-list-washington-s-ten-most-wanted-corrupt-politicians-2007

There, that's better.

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/ObamaonFaith.pdf

~The separation of church and state is critical and has caused our democracy and religious practices to thrive.~

“[Conservative leaders] need to understand the critical role that the separation of church and state has played in preserving not only our democracy, but the robustness of our religious practice. Folks tend to forget that during our founding, it wasn't the atheists or the civil libertarians who were the most effective champions of the First Amendment. It was the persecuted minorities, it was Baptists like John Leland…
was the forbearers of the evangelicals who were the most adamant about not mingling government with religion, because they did not want state-sponsored religion hindering their ability to practice their faith…” – Call to Renewal Keynote Address
•
We are a nation of many faiths and of those with no faith at all. The religious practices of all must be respected.
“Given the increasing diversity of America's population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.” - Call to Renewal Keynote Address

Barack Obama

Comments from Dr. Marty do not include a definition of "use" or "uses". Each candidates socio-economic, political and religious preferences are to be made obvious, and that not necessarily intentionally. My grandmother told me "what's in the well comes up in the bucket" It's interesting that those who may be "devoid" of substance in these areas often remain silent or at best pretend with perceived correct lingo because there is nothing there or the truth is better left unsaid. Also, "an empty waggon can make alot of noise" (a preacher friends quote)Leave it to the hearer to interpret which candidate is "using". I expect a good healthy "using" in all three areas because all three are important to me and I believe this country.
Glenn

Comments from Dr. Marty do not include a definition of "use" or "uses". Each candidates socio-economic, political and religious preferences are to be made obvious, and that not necessarily intentionally. My grandmother told me "what's in the well comes up in the bucket" It's interesting that those who may be "devoid" of substance in these areas often remain silent or at best pretend with perceived correct lingo because there is nothing there or the truth is better left unsaid. Also, "an empty waggon can make alot of noise" (a preacher friends quote)Leave it to the hearer to interpret which candidate is "using". I expect a good healthy "using" in all three areas because all three are important to me and I believe this country.
Glenn

Comments from Dr. Marty do not include a definition of "use" or "uses". Each candidates socio-economic, political and religious preferences are to be made obvious, and that not necessarily intentionally. My grandmother told me "what's in the well comes up in the bucket" It's interesting that those who may be "devoid" of substance in these areas often remain silent or at best pretend with perceived correct lingo because there is nothing there or the truth is better left unsaid. Also, "an empty waggon can make alot of noise" (a preacher friends quote)Leave it to the hearer to interpret which candidate is "using". I expect a good healthy "using" in all three areas because all three are important to me and I believe this country.
Glenn

Tarik - nothing I want any part of in a presidential campaign. Thanks....

Obama would be the president of ALL the people, and he most assuredly knows that he would be under close scrutiny as regards his neutrality in all matters religious or racial. He will be called upon to resist great pressures from both elements, I'm willing to bet.

And he will be held to a higher standard, thanks in part to the Bush administration's blatant and grossly inappropriate disregard for conforming to constitutional guidelines, while dishing up blatant preferential treatment on behalf of big money and fundamentalist religion.

No neutralitly to be found here whatsoever.......

It appears the tide is turning in Obama's favor, and perhaps that's a good thing. If elected, he'll face the most challenging presidency in modern times. On the other hand, considering that McCain is his undeclared opponent, there really is no choice in the matter but to support Obama if nominated - wishing him the very best of luck.

In my previous post with the Judicial Watch link, it erroneously has a space after "corrupt-"

www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-announces-list-washington-s-ten-most-wanted-corrupt-politicians-2007

Huckabee is corrupt (he's on Judicial Watch's list of TOP TEN MOST CORRUPT POLITICIANS of 2007) and he has almost as many skeletons in his closet as Hillary Clinton!

www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-announces-list-washington-s-ten-most-wanted-corrupt- politicians-2007

For the skeletons see: www.realchange.org/huckabee.htm

Did you notice he did not end his 'victory-Wisconsin' speech last evening with, "God bless you" or any other calling on the supernatural for help? I heard the whole thing and not once did he speak the word God as I can recall.

Did you notice that he called upon we the people to make the change. Easy but subtle, we must change else nothing changes -same old, same old, "go to your churches, temples, synagogues, mosques and pray" and watch things continue getting worse. That is the source of and not the cure for the ailment.

Are things bad enough yet for the people to realize it's not God the ministry is selling -causing people of faith to purchase tickets to hell.

Barak knows, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul Should it come to a contest of supernatural beings he may well see the logic of avoiding seeking support from representatives of Devil.

He worked with churches in Chicago helping po-folks. I'll wager he learned a little more than he mentions in his speeches.

Obama's church is Trinity United Church of Christ:

"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.

A congregation preaching SALVATION.

A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.

A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.

A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.

A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.

A congregation committed to LIBERATION.

A congregation committed to RESTORATION.

A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Obama's speech (October, 2002):

Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances.

The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don't oppose all wars.

My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain.

I don't oppose all wars.

After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this Administration's pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

I don't oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Now let me be clear - I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.

He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.

So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.

You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn't simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.

Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair.

The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not - we will not - travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.

Let's turn the page,

VOTE OBAMA FOR PRESIDENT!

I have never understood why the so-called "evangelical Christians" flocked to Ronald Reagan and the Republican Party, and still do. Is Party more important than anything else, even religious beliefs? Why are they so in love with the Republican Party?