All Comments (30)

I believe that all experiences that are had here in mortality are known to God, but exist or have been allowed for the purposes of experience and growth. Man's inhumanity to man is obviously commanded against by God, because such diminishes true opportunity for sustained growth. The taking of human life for example deprives that individual who has died from wonderful and meaningful experiences and the acheivement of personal goals and options to serve others here upon the earth, while he who willfully took the life is likewise deprived through condemnation and darkness.

To say that no one is informed as to the mind of God, is scripturally careless. The Holy Ghost certainly is the member of the Godhead that testifies of all truth to those who will align their lives to hear it through faith in Jesus Christ. It seems to me that most natural disasters or disruptions to our daily lives are warned of as a coming reality, and most if not all turmoil upon the earth come's as a result of man's rebellions towards God, and are allowed for the various purposes of a loving and redeeming God to accomplish his plans to assist his children to change in a manner that they may need, even if that need is to be awakened perhaps. Man made disasters that are meant to harm others, are not of God of course, but are the result of the Adversary's efforts to destroy the happiness of man and the eternal progress of those who have yeilded to his will rather than to have obeyed God's will. To conclude, are we not individual agents upon the earth given the wonderful gift of agency by God wherein we may choose for ourself between good and evil? If so, we must be able to dwell in the midst of the storms of mortality to see the differences between the two and then choose what we will do - not by partaking for that is commanded against, but to follow the way of Christ, or to give ourselves over to any wind that passes our way and reap some consequence therefrom. Thanks for the opportunity to provide my thoughts.

I think 'I don't know' is a great answer (not as great as Norrie's though, obviously). However, it rings a little hollow coming from Christians because if you didn't pretend to know the mind of your god then you wouldn't have things like the so-called Age of Accountability or the Trinity doctrine.

All of the apologists I've had the displeasure to deal with know the mind of god when it is convenient and don't know the mind of god when it is convenient.

"This one is easy.

"Why does a merciful God allow human-caused and natural disasters to happen.

"Answer: I don't know."

****************************************

The correct answer to the question is even easier:

There is no merciful God.

Thomas Baum; Jesus sends you this important link;

http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

I don't know, either.

But then, I try very seriously not to conflate "knowing" with "believing".

I don't even know if there is a God, never having met Him, but believe I see his works. For me, a Deist, God exists but never once built a church nor scrived a word in Greek or Aramaic. All these things were done by men, men who have over the years become mere hustlers.

And believing in God does not make it any easier to face death since, in the end, I don't know if there is a heaven. It may be here.

Why does God allow atrocities? God, for me, is love, and while love is very powerful, it does not take leaps from person to person, righting wrongs like Spiderman. Love is there for us to feel, to enjoy, to give more than we get, to treasure. I do not believe it is God's nature to interfere on a micro scale with humans' doings.

It may be that the only vestige of myself that remains in twenty years or so is the love I have given and got.

I don't know, either.

Human-caused: free will. Natural disasters: there are laws of nature, that's the way God created the universe, which the earth is part of, and even if you don't believe in God, still there are laws of nature. If only what we can see and the short time each of us are here was all that there is, then to say the least it would seem pointless, but no matter what anyone believes there is a Plan and it will come to completion. As I have said before: Time will tell. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I grew up in a generic Protestant environment, with a big dash of Hellfire and Damnation tossed in. The question, "why would a loving God kill people?" was always there and never answered. The judgmental and unfriendly religion of my youth was neither comprehensible nor attractive. While I remained a spiratual person, nothing religious spoke to me until I began reading A Course in Miracles. Many doubt the Authorship of that work. I can't prove who wrote it, but it is so much healthier than the traditional Christianity I grew up with that I've continued to read and benefit from it. Whoever the Author is, he/she is a loving, non-judgmental, and deeply insightful person.

Extrapolating from ACIM, my (not the Author's) answer to the question posed in this column is that God does not create illness or natural disasters--these are the natural consequences of having a physical body and living in our world. Jesus, our strongest connection to God, has no interest in making us suffer, but neither is he interested in destroying our enemies (sorry George), turning the hurricane away from our beachfront mansion, or finding us a better parking place. He is concerned with our spiritual awakening and movement toward God, as expressed in our becoming loving, forgiving, and able to see beyond the realm of the physical to the Realm of God. To those ends, He is a guide and an unfailing supporter of our efforts. It is for us to deal with the consequences of having a fragile and temporary physical body, and and the consequences of living on a dangerous planet.

Dr. Marty, I agree with you on the value of not claiming to know the mind of God. There is, however, a modest solution to the problem of natural evil that I would like to offer. Instead of trying to solve the problem theologically or intellectually, why not approach the problem from a practical point of view? For Christians perhaps the question ought to be 'What will the church of Jesus Christ do in the face of evil?' I don't have to know why hurricanes strike where they do in order for me to work with and for the folks who are affected by them. That is the part of this discussion that trumps an agnostic "I don't know (thus I won't care)" answer some of the other respondents have offered. The answer to the problem of natural evil does matter, but it matters most when it drives to respond with acts of kindness. The power of theology and intellect lies in what it calls and equips us to do.

The only thing that we know about the hereafter (including any deity) that has any validity whatsoever are the reports of some 20 million people over the past forty years who have undergone Near-Death-Experiences. Collectively they have maintained that religions were irrelevant to lives on earth. Only two things mattered in their lives: 1) What did you do to help your fellow man?, and 2) What did you do to increase your own knowledge?

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all come from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Some say once you're gone you're gone forever, and some say you're gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Saviour if in sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they're comin' back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory and I ain't saying it ain't a fact.
But I've heard that I'm on the road to purgatory and I don't like the sound of that.
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly.
But I choose to let the mystery be.

Everybody's wonderin' what and where they all came from.
Everybody's worryin' 'bout where they're gonna go when the whole thing's done.
But no one knows for certain and so it's all the same to me.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.
I think I'll just let the mystery be.

"Let the Mystery Be" - Iris Dement

The good Dr. Martin might have more profitably put his 35 years of theological studies (which leads him to "I don't know") into scientifically researching how it is that the human species seems prone to cook up outlandish narratives about "God" and "first causes" and "why we suffer" apparently as a means to make the tribe coherent and maintain moral and social order within it. Is there some tribal survival value in this bunkum, particularly since the invention of agriculture, that makes preposterous fables and nostrums packaged as "organized religion" so widespread? The Old Testament's Jehovah is a patently ridiculous deity, for example, shifty, inconstant, intemperate, injudicious, self-referential, choosy, childish, vindictive, cruel and opaque. Conventionalized "religion" only grudgingly accommodates the sparks of spontaneous spirituality, love and saintliness that seem to spring up in gifted individuals, inside or outside of systematized religiosity and muddled doctrines, seemingly in spite of the dead hands of popes, prelates and musty theologians to divert, exploit or rationalize it?

Wonderful discussion. Roy's comments are excellent and well thought out.

Personally, it is my considered belief, after years of pondering, that the life force in the universe that many call 'God' is unknowable. It may be a devine being, or a purely physical entity. Only the truly arrogant will claim to know one way or the other.

In any event, it is my belief that good and bad events just happen -- they are not caused to punish or reward individuals or nations -- and it is our charge to seek the courage and wisdom to cope or rejoice, as the case may be, resulting in psychological growth.

Scarlett is right, we know nothing about god, the problems start when a few claim special knowledge and attempt to "spread the word".

Cart

The answer is obvious: God is not benevolent. The Bible is full of examples of God's cruelty and injustice. Talk about God's benevolence is supplication, begging for mercy and favor, and should not be confused with fact.

Marty Martin was not at all helpful by simply saying "I don't know." Much more can be said. Next time ask a theologian who will engage the question seriously, and ask another who will not simply repeat the dogmas of orthodoxy but speak of alternatives. The appeal to ignorance is a cop out and ignores the profound difficulties of Christian orthodoxy with regard to the question of unmerited suffering. By asserting both omnipotence and goodness in God, orthodoxy can not deal adequately with non-humanly caused misery. Orthodoxy claims to know a great deal about God -- the Trinity, the Incarnation, the afterlife, etc. -- until the theodicy question is posed, and suddenly it turns ignorant and humble. I don't buy it.

Years ago, when I was more "fundamentalist" in my Christian views, I had a rather low opinion of Martin Marty and his obvious "lack of faith."

Today, I fully appreciate his candor and honesty. Too many people assert that "thus and so" is the TRUTH. Far too few people are willing to admit that when it comes to faith, the only honest answer is "I don't know."

That doesn't mean that I don't "believe" certain things are true, but belief and faith are different than knowledge and fact. We all really need to be more generous to each other and recognize that just because we believe something, it doesn't necessarily make it so.

Let go of the anger. Embrace the love. God is good. His love endures forever.

There may or may not be a Unifying Power behind all the universe and natural events. It can be known only by broad equations of physics. They are sublime but not persons. We might project human attributes onto the natural world, but personality does not really exist outside of humanity itself. Chimps and dolphins may come close, but not enough to organize religions of their own.

God is an idea that expresses the human hope for a guiding order, caring authority, and final justice. It is like the idea of law or morality. It does not control or prevent natural events or disease. It does not even control people consistently or coherently. God and religion are simply a set of terms by which we try to reaon how to handle social ills or natural maladies.

Of course, there are multiple religions, each jealously guarding various traditions, slants, and clerical powers. The is why the founders of the US tried to separate church from state. The state cannot address all matters in life, but is the instrument by which we defend our liberties, promote order, and attend to social needs which the market or private initiatives do not.

Prayers do not prevent Katrinas. Nor are they enough to cure their ravages. But, when they do happen, they do constitute a way of forging consensus on how to respond and what to do. The trick, however, is not to rely soley on hope, and to turn hope into action.

Many years ago, my then 15 year old son made a comment that gave me pause. (Paraphrased) 'Have you ever thought that perhaps in this vast universe that we here on earth are just an experiment? Like being under a huge dome, and constantly observed by unknown entities to see how we act and react to things?.....

It is possible that we, here on earth, are indeed a pilot 'test' program for God to observe his creations, before expanding our knowledge of possible other life-forms! Our understanding of the size of the universe is 'infinity'. But that is just a human perception.

I remember early teachings of the church when told that God gives to each of us "free will", and individually we choose what to do with it. Well, it looks like we aren't doing a very good job of managing that with which we have been given.

Worst of all is that our nation's leaders fail us at almost all levels of decision-making under their purview, and in the worst ways. Greed. Lies. Non-truths or 'misdirected' information. Failure to do the job for which they were elected. Failure to care for those among us who cannot care for themselves. Seemingly, they put themselves first and above all others. What has happened to truth? Trust? Honesty? Caring? Failure to protect the laws of our country, and the beliefs on which this nation was built - the belief in 'One God?"

"When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt, does he bother himself about whether the rats aboard are comfortable?" (Voltaire, Candide)

Whatever your conception of God--"whether Cosmic Muffin or Hairy Thunderer" (National Lampoon, Radio Dinner), is there any better advice than "cultivate your garden"?

"When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt, does he bother himself about whether the rats aboard are comfortable?" (Voltaire, Candide)

Whatever your conception of God--"whether Cosmic Muffin or Hairy Thunderer" (National Lampoon, Radio Dinner), is there any better advice than "cultivate your garden"?

"When His Highness sends a ship to Egypt, does he bother himself about whether the rats aboard are comfortable?" (Voltaire, Candide)

Whatever your conception of God--"whether Cosmic Muffin or Hairy Thunderer" (National Lampoon, Radio Dinner), is there any better advice than "cultivate your garden"?

We know nothing about God. We have invented him and given him the characteristics we want.

I've been a Christian since high school (>20 years). Over the years I've noticed that, as other posts have said, that we tend to over spiritualize many events -- whether good or bad. When a tornado or earthquake destroys a house, I think we naturally ask ourselves what the person living there did wrong. It almost seems like nature is designed to cause us to make this correlation; rainbows and thunderstorms naturally lead us to conclude the creator is happy or mad respectively. Don't forget though, that storms, volcanos, 'earth'quakes, etc., also happen on other planets. Jupiter has a storm the size of the earth (the red spot) that has lasted for hundreds of years! Has someone done something wrong there? Over the years I've never seen God zap someone for doing something wrong, and I've never seen him perform a supernatural miracle (in the physical sense). I've concluded that all good and all evil is done through humans. I think believers, for better or worse, are God's hands in this world; not storms and earthquakes.

How refreshing and different for a religious scholar to admit "I don't know" Usually religious people claim to know anything and everything based on cherry picking scriptures from their holy books. What if we all admitted "I don't know"? more? The world would be a more peaceful and loving place. For example:

1. Is Mormonism a sect that is wrong? It's not for me but I don't know.

2. Is gay marriage OK in the eyes of God. For me I think it makes sense if one believes God is loving and inclusive but I don't know for sure. Wouldn't it be nice if the Romneys, McCains, Dobsons, Haggards and Craigs of the world simply said "I don't know" instead of using the issue to polarize voters?

3. Do Christians need the Virgin Mary, Popes, Bishops, Cardinals and Priests? They're not for me but I don't know - maybe some people need them to find God. I don't know and I really don't care. It doesn't bother me and won't affect my opinion of Catholics as individuals.

4. Is Larry Craig gay? I don't know and I don't really care. It does offend me however if he is a closet gay bashing others for political gain.

5. Is it OK to sit in judgment of people of different religions, races and languages (a la the current fad of Mexican bashing)? It doesn't seem so to me and I think Jesus said something about this but it seems to be a popular common denominator among some of the religious people in the world so I don't know for sure. I do know Karl Rove and Adolf Hitler both used this as a very effective political strategy.

The truth is there are many religious questions for which the honest answer from mortal man is
"I don't know" Unfortunately, many use religion for manipulation by guilt, judgment, to justify war and sometime for just downright hatefulness.

Is it wrong for me to be so intolerant of the intolerant? I don't know.

There is no doubt that no one knows. Unfortunately, many believe, and in fact, are certain they do know. The confusion, conflation, or whatever it is, between faith and certainty has caused, is causing and will perhaps forever cause much avoidable suffering and death.

"I don't know" should really be the headline, or at least part of the preface, to every answer on this forum...

This gets my vote for top On Faith headline -- pithy , honest and to-the-point.

Prof Marty:
I too appreciate your candor in saying "I don't know" Which is far better than other panel members, like the Hindu lady, bouncing all around fluffy parts and contorting various splinters of belief into a crumbly, barely cohesive answer....
However. We should thank god for the good things, like health, surviving a disaster, winning a football game, not getting pregnant, a tasty slice of cheesecake, having just enough gas to get home.... These are blessings... but what of the vacuum, the void that inevitably leaves... Was our prayer for a homerun in the ninth answered by a loving and caring god, and we should be thankful, yet our pleas to save a child from a burning house are just not in his bailiwick? Can you see the problem some of us have? Only good things come from god, but the bad things he has no control or concern?
Two guys sitting beside each other .. both praying that the drowned child's body is NOT their child... One finds out that it is not his, and thanks god for the miracle. It was a great thing, a gift from god... Yet the other man finds that it is his.... God has no hand in it? God has no influence? God answers prayers, but only if the request meets the already predetermined script? Does this not nullify prayer?
If we are not to know the mind of god, then how can we assume that good things, good times, are indeed his work? If he can not or does not cause, create, or affect the bad things, how can we know that the good things are his doing, his blessings?
Others have posited that perhaps bad things happen to us because god wants to strengthen us and have us more appreciative of the good things when the pendulum of divine justice swings back... can the converse not be said about the blessings? They are there merely to weaken us?
Thanks;

Prof. Marty, I appreciate your honesty in saying "I don't know," but it prompts a lot more questions.

Is it that you personally don't know but others do? Is it knowable but we don't have the technology yet? Is it a religious mystery, unknowable to humans?

Shouldn't religions be able to answer the big questions? Or is this question just off limits? And if so, why?

Hi Professor
Nice to see an honest response,like "I don't know".
There's so much we don't know isn't there?
In fact,about God we can never know anything,
rationally speaking. Its all guess work isn't it.
It's just as likely that there is no god,of course.
In fact,if you really think about it,its even more likely
that there is no god. Isn't it the kind of thing we'd make up anyway,
because it feels so good?
All we have to do is believe and we feel better about things
like life and death.Its so tempting to believe,
but some of us can't make that leap of faith
because it feels silly and irrational and kind of cowardly,
like whistling in the dark when your afraid.