All Comments (35)

right keyboard day red this me cube green frog we ibm head go

tom joke keyboard man land bag german university green all boy all pets are keyboard usa all me red

all are all greed german canada apple kitchen speed black jhon ibm tom green

New links http://obiturariese.com - obituraries - [URL=http://obiturariese.com]obituraries[/url] blogs

This info about http://obiturariese.com - obituraries - [URL=http://obiturariese.com]obituraries[/url] too

Blya budu, linki http://obiturariese.com - obituraries - [URL=http://obiturariese.com]obituraries[/url] do it

Greetings http://obiturariese.com - obituraries - [URL=http://obiturariese.com]obituraries[/url] do it

New links http://obiturariese.com - obituraries - [URL=http://obiturariese.com]obituraries[/url] and other

Funny sites http://obiturariese.com - obituraries - [URL=http://obiturariese.com]obituraries[/url] too

for the I grew attempt. the wild http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2739

natural were told http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2758 then did then eventually http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2758 let it go. probably http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2759

I go back every up across http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2758 all what friends and began http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2758 were the best, I assumed and saw http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2759

had probably that http://groups.msn.com/BuyCialisatCanadianPharmacy

what effect work http://www.answerbag.com/profile/?id=312441 with box then. pruning http://www.answerbag.com/profile/about_me?id=312441

Hi! I'm Dr. Phillips! I love your site - it's really good!
buy viagra online buy viagra online
[url=http://www.blinklist.com/Buy_Viagra_Online/]buy viagra[/url]
Thank you!

Hi! I'm Dr. Phillips! I love your site - it's really good!
buy viagra online buy viagra online
[url=http://www.blinklist.com/Buy_Viagra_Online/]buy viagra[/url]
Thank you!

Hi! I'm Dr. Phillips! I love your site - it's really good!
buy viagra online buy viagra online
[url=http://digg.com/world_news/Buy_Viagra_Online_THE_LOWEST_PRICE_GUARANTEE] buy viagra online [/url]
Thank you!

cantankerously ungorged sialadenoncus ungelt unneighborlike seljuk ichthyismus suspire
Fairmont Futura
http://www.stores.to/

cantankerously ungorged sialadenoncus ungelt unneighborlike seljuk ichthyismus suspire
Health Canada Diabetes
http://www.voiceovers.co.uk/andy.freeman/

I've cut and pasted the attached line - one that I wish to keep and ponder - as it very much resonated within me as I read this piece. The On Faith site is a promotion of and acceptance of a variety of cultural views and secular/religious opinions. And the spectators/public can on any topic, pick and choose that which they feel connected to and relevant. Today Marty's piece, I very much connected to, particularly his last line. It's matches my sense of a harmonious soulful community where prayer is accepted as sacred. Thank you sir, and again, thanks to the moderators that provide this offering.

"Prayer means something, means more, when it grows out of the stories and devotion and practices of praying communities, nurtured in church and synagogue and mosque, than it does when everything is flattened out to appeal to a general public in a general way."

*lil bows* :) Flattered, Lepi, use as you see fit. Could probably use some polish, but probably good for parts, anyway. Hope it comes in useful. :)

Paganplace:

You have a point, and your version is much more ecumenically accessible without losing the Paganness of it. You're good, lady.

And I love what you wrote. With your permission, I'm going to copy it into an email to myself for my journal, and maybe even use it the next time I'm asked to offer a prayer for a multi-faith event.

I'd probably go with something with a bit more common language, myself, Lepi, rather than get too circle-castey, so folks can know what things mean: I doubt you'd get the folks present to circle up, anyway. It's an invocation of sorts.

Something like, "We stand here in this place of governance, of democracy, of our Republic... on this good land of America, we stand,

In the breeze of the East, we stand, let there be clarity of thought, renewal of inspiration, and welcome to the light of morning.

Warmed by a fire of the South, we stand, let there be courage for change, fire to the heart, and warmth for the common hearth.

In a shower from the West, we stand, let there be good feeling among us, compassion for those in need, love for each other...

By the cool Earth of the North we stand, let us stand by our foundations, know what has come before, let there be steadfastness of will, let us keep strong in our traditions, let us stand in temperate community...

We stand here in this center, on the good Earth, in this place of our governance, let us be mindful of Who guide us, names known and forgotten, of the ancestors who came before, let us hearken to the land, the sky, the sea, and the many faces of divinity known and unknown to all the people this body represents, let good spirits be within, upon, and beneath this hall... In the name of highest good, so mote it be."

Something like that. :) Not sure how much time you're supposed to have, but that's what I banged out in about twenty minutes. :)

For the purposes of a multi-faith prayer, "To whom it may concern" actually isn't a bad idea. The UU's I hang with have arunning joke about that very idea...

As for a Pagan prayer for the Senate, I'd probably go with something very simple along the lines of my morning prayer. I start with the East, simply because my morning prayers usually take place at or near sunrise.

I don't know if it would be possible, but if it were, I'd have the Seantors form a circle. Asking them to join hands would probably not go over well, but if they would, so much the better.

"Spirit of the East, Element of Air:
May our minds today be sharp and focused, and our thoughts clear.

Spirit of the South, Element of Fire:
May our spirits today be in harmony with those of our fellow beings, and with them create a positive vibration within the Universe.

Spirit of the West, Element of Water:
May our hearts today be filled with love for our fellow beings, and may that love guide all that we do.

Spirit of the North, Element of Earth:
May our bodies today be used to further the well-being of our world.

Spirit of the North, Element of Earth:
We thank you for your presence and blessing at this gathering. Stay if you will, leave if you must.

Spirit of the West, Element of Water:
We thank you for your presence and blessing at this gathering. Stay if you will, leave if you must.

Spirit of the South, Element of Fire:
We thank you for your presence and blessing at this gathering. Stay if you will, leave if you must.

Spirit of the East, Element of Air:
We thank you for your presence and blessing at this gathering. Stay if you will, leave if you must.

Our circle is open, but unbroken. Merry meet, merry part, and merry meet again."

Short, simple, to the point, although someone with formal training might have a different approach.

We have become overly sensitized to religious symbols in the public sphere - meaning that our reaction to those symbols (including prayer) verge on the phobic. Some would have it that no religious symbol is appropriate in civil government, others decry the loss of the 'Christian Nation.' While the tension in this ongoing debate is good, encouraging a deeper reflection on the intersection of faith and government - the intersection itself is somewhat of a false construct.

For better or worse, religion (of all varieties) is an epistimological background we cannot rid ourselves of even if that were our desire. Individually and collectively, we've made our decisions as to where we stand in terms of a God or gods - we believe or we don't. No one pretends that religion doesn't exist at all - the only debate there concerns what is true (which doesn't seem resolvable anytime in the near future). Having decided where we stand - believe or not - that decision becomes normative as to our approach to all social issues. While it is certainly not a straitjacket regarding decisions we make, our beliefs in this regard do indeed inform our social decisions.

Debating the opening prayer tradition for Congressional sessions is symptomatic of our inability to compartmentalize one of our most fundamental, normative, beliefs. Jettisoning the prayer tradition will not change anyone's belief system, nor will more doctrinal prayer convert anyone (generally).

I would hold that until we surrender the fight to change people's belief systems in terms of God, and just admit that we live in a society that embraces plurality - including matters of faith (the plurality including those having decided that a god doesn't exist - it stems from the same background capacity) - we will continue to debate the periphery.

Preserve the traditional opening Congressional prayer, to be conducted on even-numbered days (or odd) - and no prayer on odd-numbered days...but let's not miss the fact that we've all made a fundamental decision about religion from the same background - and the desire to keep that decision private and out of the public sphere (regardless of how well-meaning that desire is) is wasted effort.

Thank you, Dr. Marty for your always insightful analysis.

Scott

Abolish the practice of praying in the Senate. Do away with the chaplains. Keep organized religion out of public-funded institutions. Prayer or communion with higher spirits or supernatural beings belong in churches and other houses of worship, in private homes, and in individual souls. "Faithyness" -- ostentatiously pious public professions of one's spiritual devotion to burnish one's image with voters -- has no place in governmental agencies like the Senate, as a number of the Founding Fathers insisted. Jesus himself recommended private prayer, if one is to trust the veracity of the biblical account.

Martin Marti's comments are brief yet reflect a wonderful depth and understanding of the issues at hand. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have public discourse on religious topics (to include different beliefs) in the same spirit and with the same insight Marti shares.

Oh, and, hi, Wiccan..

And, well, Bgone, sorry if you didn't intend to cheese anyone off: frankly, there's a lot more people out there reciting untruths about us as dogma than there are... Us trying to clarify.

A lot of folks don't *want* to be clarified on some of these points.

It's a bit like the people who make a big moral issue about being the cashier when someone needs emergency contraception, because they were taught it's their religious belief that this is abortion:

Plenty of controversy, ...totally ignoring the actual fact it's *not even* abortion. No pregnancy by any definition actually exists at that point, even. It's a *religious* idea that conception happens when there's sex, sex is for procreation, thus sex is procreation, even if they're taking *moral objection* to something that's *just not happening, however you believe.*

In the same way, some of these ideas that people can or should abridge religious freedom just come from *false premises in the first place,* whatever the issues they raise may be.

So, Pagans don't appreciate the false premises on what we're about, cause we have enough on our plates in the current theo-political environment as it is.

Which gets back to the original assertion by the columnist here that people need to 'judge what's the true God' before 'allowing' diversity to have voice in our government.

A couple weeks ago, there was some kind of law passed in Texas called 'Religious Freedom of Expression Act' intended to allow Christian prayers to be imposed in schools, ...and a lot of the proponents of the idea raised concerns, "But how can we keep a Wiccan student from speaking."

One thing this does do is give the lie to the idea that pushing Christianity in public life is about *freedom.*

It's about pushing Christianity.

As for a Pagan prayer for the Senate, sure. I could come up with something.

I'd have to look up the guidelines, though: is it supposed to be a blessing, leading a prayer/meditation, a diversity display, what. :)

'Needling' would be fine, Bgone, but you were there just repeating the same defamation that Christians present to each other as fact about us.

On this:

"Sorry Paganplace, just kidding around with you. I know the oldest writings tell us about Pagans, are themselves Pagan scriptures of a sorts. It's an odds on favorite someone has collected them into a book not unlike the Bible in that it's "books" within a book. I don't know what it is and I didn't want to leave you out."

Why play the odds?

Find one.

Then see if anyone treats it the way people treat Bibles and Korans.

This board's about interfaith communication, not making characterizations based on your own conjecture of how your prejudice might hold true.

Sorry Paganplace, just kidding around with you. I know the oldest writings tell us about Pagans, are themselves Pagan scriptures of a sorts. It's an odds on favorite someone has collected them into a book not unlike the Bible in that it's "books" within a book. I don't know what it is and I didn't want to leave you out.

When world religions disintegrate, and they will, you are the survivor. As it stands, people in church ponder their astrological readings while ignoring what the preacher is saying. So I'd say you have the most popular religion right now. You're just not recognized. The same people who wouldn't go to the toilet without first checking h/er AC are poo pooing you. That's the nature of the beast known as faith.

Maybe you could share with us a Pagan prayer for the senate? You do recognize Natures God as a god. Perhaps the sum total of all the gods? Makes worlds more sense than "three divine persons" in one God. And after all is said and done it should be "one nation under Nature's God" if it is to conform to the founder's thoughts on God.

Sorry about the needle. You must know me by now. I can't stop laughing. "The Devil made me do that."

Hi, PaganPlace!

I always have wondered at these true believers who want to cram the Divine into a tiny book. How can something so grand fit into something so small?

"Paganplace informed me they ain't got no sacred scriptures. Guess Pagans make up as they go."

Umm, no, we have very old myths and writings, but we don't worship them or through them in the way of 'sacred scriptures.' Our spiritual and religious life is not *dependent* on a holy book.

You, of all people, should realize how 'unchanging' written authorities can be corrupted and abused:

As a faith community, we're aware of this, and simply don't see books that way. If you somehow erased the Bible, and Muslim, and Jewish scriptures from history, you'd have no Christianity or Islam or Judaism as we know them.

Paganism, well, hey, look at us. One can't destroy what we have no matter how much heritage you burn. Our ways are in the world, in us, ...we don't have a belief that the Gods would go away or punish anyone eternally for not believing if you took a book away.

A Pagan oath wouldn't need to be on a book, we might swear by our names, our ancestors, Earth and Sky, or the Gods we swear by... If you have to put your hand on something, it might be a stone or blade or something important we wrote down by hand five minutes before.

Whether you're using it to enforce religion or attack it, this book-literalism *gives those books too much power.*

It's, in fact, superstition.

The kind of superstition that makes people think the house will come down from the 'Abomination' of someone having the temerity to have another religion than Abrahamic in America.

The old defamation we just 'make it up as we go' because we don't *share* that particular superstition just isn't true.

Pardon if we're actually a little *different.*

Gods.

I believe the prayer was in keeping with including all faiths. That people would protest is beyond me. Has it come to the day when no one is ever satisfied with anything in this country?

I also read the article twice and still don't quite understand what the take-home message was intended to be. Why are theologians so obtuse?

Maybe the message was something like: We live in a pluralistic society, and some of that diversity is different from the "old ways" that most of us are used to, especially in regards to religion. Some Americans have issues with that. If we're not ready to abolish prayers completely from a public body like the House or Senate, then we should accommodate minority religious views and the "traditionalists" will just have to adapt. It might mean having to go with prayers that are somewhat generalized (to avoid offense to the overly-sensitive types), but that's a small price to pay for being inclusive. After all, it's only a prayer ... it doesn't make much difference either way.

Was that it? If so, I can agree with that.

Well, I read it twice and can't seem to get it whatever it is. "Prayer means something, means more," under conditions. Sincere prayer happens more often when the boogies are about to get ya along with curses, people without faith.

Robert Oppenheimer prayed to some Hindu God, read from Hindu scriptures so I've heard just before the first atom bomb detonated. I trust a Hindu in the senate chamber is not symptomatic of things to come along that line. It does present me with a problem though.

I left Hindu sacred scriptures out of previous questions.
Which is the REAL word of God?

a) Torah
b) Bible
c) Koran
d) Hindu scriptures
e) Book of Mormon
f) Other
g) All of the above
h) None of the above

Note: Paganplace informed me they ain't got no sacred scriptures. Guess Pagans make up as they go.

You don't suppose? http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul Surely Hindus aren't in on that. "the idea that anyone would object to any sort of prayer (except, perhaps, a plea to Satan)" No, it's not a pleas to Satan but it is a plea to some supernatural being. Which one is the question. Do Hindus have the answer? Let us pray it's not Lucifer. His wagon is overloaded already.