Award-winning author and professor emeritus, University of Chicago
Martin E. Marty is Fairfax M. Cone Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus at the University of Chicago, where he taught religious history, chiefly in the Divinity School, for 35 years, and where the Martin Marty Center has been founded to promote “public religion” endeavors. For a decade prior to entering academia, the “On Faith” panelist served parishes in the west and northwest suburbs of Chicago as an ordained Lutheran pastor. Marty is the author of more than 50 books including Righteous Empire: The Protestant Experience in America (1970), for which he won the National Book Award. His additional honors include the National Humanities Medal, the Medal of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the University of Chicago Alumni Medal, the Distinguished Service Medal of the Association of Theological Schools, and the Order of Lincoln Medallion (Illinois’ top honor). Marty has served as president of the American Academy of Religion, the American Society of Church History, and the American Catholic Historical Association. He also has served on two U.S. Presidential Commissions and was director of the Fundamentalism Project of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and the Public Religion Project at the University of Chicago. He is Senior Regent of St. Olaf College in Northfield, Minnesota.
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Martin Marty
Award-winning author and professor emeritus, University of Chicago
Martin E. Marty is Fairfax M. Cone Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus at the University of Chicago, where he taught religious history, chiefly in the Divinity School, for 35 years, and where the Martin Marty Center has been founded to promote “public religion” endeavors.
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To Concerned the christian now liberated and the rest of the world: I am not a NT scholar, I am just a messenger chosen by God to be who He created me to be. One of the things written in the bible is, "I will send the simple to confound the wise", well, "Here I am". Jesus also said, "I will send the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth", He did not say that He would send a bunch of NT scholars to guide us into all truth, did He? God's Plan is simple but how it all ties together only God knows. I am so glad that God is nothing like what so many people that call themselves christians think that He is. God really is Love, He is not a loving God but a Being of Pure Love, Love is not an attribute of God, I was taught in second grade that God is Love and I just accepted it at the time, I did not know that the statement, God is Love, was literal until God the Father came into my heart on the 28th of Jan 2000. As it says in revelations, "God will declare Victory in favor of the Holy Ones" and God always sends a messenger ahead of time, that messenger happens to be me, as God said in the bible, "Remember I have chosen you, you haven't chosen me", I remember and I have replied Yes to being chosen. I am thankful for God's Plan and one day All of humanity will be thankful for His Plan also. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen plus a large number of other NT scholars over the past 200 years have reviewed the NT documents, the documents that went into their preparation and all the associated documentation. By comparing the number of attestations and stratums in these books, they were able to separate the "wheat from the chaff". I highly recommend the same analyses for anyone interested in what really happened in Palestine in the first to third century CE.
To Concerned the Christian now Liberated: That quote as per J. D. Crosson, From Crossan and Watts book who is Jesus? Is that the garbage that the theologians are trying to pass off as theological enlightenment and watered down christianity? Thank You. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
To Concerned the Christian now liberated and the rest of the world: The Holy Spirit that came into my body well if you haven't ever met the Holy Spirit personally that there isn't much I can say about it and if other people have personally met the Holy Spirit, I don't know how they would explain it, sometimies maybe we should let God be God and do whatever He does, however He does it. As far as "pretty wingie talking thingie", I have no idea where you came up with that set of words, but when the Holy Spirit came into my body, I did not see him nor did He directly say anything to me, I just knew when He let me know, because in God's Wisdom, He knew I needed to know some things to do the job that He chose me for, and by the way I don't consider it my job but Our Job, God and me. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
Who ever is involved with forum eather do not understand or are on drugs. Not but one person Steve, has made an sents in this group
Am signing off
Good luck with your lives they are going to be short. Christ is coming are you ready????
Oh where, Oh where, art thou Moroni? Ditto for Gabriel, Michael, Tinkerbell, Tubuas, Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, Raguel, the Seraphim and the Cherubim?????
Hold on, we just received an e-mail from St. Peter. Apparently, Satan stole all the angel PC's and therefore there have been no angelic commentaries on this blog. St. Peter sends his apologies. Stay tuned though, I hear Michael Dell is trying to sign an agreement with St. Peter for new laptops for the "pretty wingie thingies".
If you believe judeo-christian religion(s), you're simply naive and gullible. Go on, believe in the lies you've been told since childhood, indulge in your perpetual infancy.
I imagine the consolation of improbable fantasies is comforting.
Thanks for the concern. Actually I am at peace now with my "Catholic" religion. It is amazing how the attestation/stratum analyses used by the Jesus Seminarians, e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, agree with what is currently being taught in graduate theology classes at many large Catholic universities (e.g. Catholic U, Notre Dame).
Major agreements achieved but by different methods:
1. There was no physical resurrection (i.e. Heaven is a Spirit State)
2. And it therefore follows there was no ascension and no assumption.
3. There is/was no original sin. A&E were fictional characters living in mythical land.
4. And it therefore follows, baptism does not erase original sin since there is no sin to erase. Limbo therefore is a non-issue.
5. Jesus was crucified but details of the deed have little historic verification.
As per J.D. Crossan,
From Crossan and Watts book, Who is Jesus????
“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety. I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."
Liberated, Christian?????
Your insight is excellent and accurate !though kind of hard to unerstand. CHRISTAN LIBERATED ???
A Christain in the terms of The Holy Bible is one who is Christ like.
Are you saying you are liberated from Christ or from Christianity or both ?
Then where is there room for a god in your life.
With these statements you must be a very confused person what or who do you believe ?this does not leave room for any truths, but lies. Your in a delma! Free, are you sure you are free ?
Time and time alone has proved the reality of the Holy Bible .It does not have to be defended.
You are but one voice in the darkness, get in line. Free, no, you are a slave to this darkness.
"The things that divide us are important. If they're not then all those who have devoted their entire lives to their faith, whatever religion that is, have done so in vain."
But you don't believe God is a relativist. So then you believe that those who dedicate their lives to faiths other than Catholicism are doing so in vain. That's uncharitable. And it presumes putting yourself in God's place to make the ultimate judgments that only He alone can make.
"The things that divide us are important". No, that can't be. Christ was a peacemaker. What peacemaker would recommend focusing on the things that divide, rather than the things that unite.
Jesus talked about a good God. All loving, all merciful. I believe him. I'm betting my life on it.
Thank you for your prayers. I will pray we both become wiser.
And your communicating angel's name is?
Some suggestions:
Joe Smith had his Moroni.
Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinker bell" got around).
Jesus and his family and scribes had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.
The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.
Some added references to "tinker bell" names:
"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."
Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.
Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also had their share of angel names/hallucinating:
"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."
Intrest testimony of souls who think they are worthy of God's love.
It is we who refuse Him It is He (God) who wants our attention. We refuse to pay homage to Him but in our own way. Total,disrespect !!
First of all the god you speak of is a most small god who can do nothing but what you think he can. you control him and will not show Him respect unless you can monipulate !.
The God of the Bride,(the Church) Jesus the Christ is able to do anything. One may respect that or not.He is but what He is, the Almighty (ALmighty). The I AM
All your gods bow to Him.
The God I worship and give thanks to is the one who died a Calvary for you and me to show He loves us.
This origanal Sin spoken of in the above posts is ours and ours alone we refused God and wanted to do our own thing even to this very day. (Sin)
Why should the God of everything want with you !!!What have you done today that warrents His attention let alone His love ? and His dieing for you !!! To free you from our bonds and pay the price God demands of each one of us.
In just every day world of things if I wronged you would you want an apoligy ? Or is road rage the way of things ?
God made us and we refused Him, is this a wrong ?
By the way my God can and has raised the dead and will raise you for judgement .The God of this universe made man and all that is. Knows all and see all ! Can your god do that ? Or will he remember you at all. Does you god know you even exist ? .
The God of the universe not only knows you but knows your name the number of hairs on your head all about you even before the foundation of the world . You are imortant to Him..
What do you know of Him?
The writters of this world get there information from where? Not the Bible !!! May be from there god who speaks to them ?
The Bible is the word of God and This book claims we are lost and will see Hells fire if we do not respect the God of this unverse (The I AM ) !!
Hope you will turn to Him and give Him the respect due Him. If you don't Hells fire is in the wings !!
One who casually reads the Bible might over look all through Gods words it speaks of the coming of the Messiah and the suffering Savior for Israel.
Intrest testimony of souls who think they are worthy of God's love.
It is we who refuse Him It is He (God) who wants our attention. We refuse to pay homage to Him but in our own way. Total,disrespect !!
First of all the god you speak of is a most small god who can do nothing but what you think he can. you control him and will not show Him respect unless you can monipulate !.
The God of the Bride,(the Church) Jesus the Christ is able to do anything. One may respect that or not.He is but what He is, the Almighty (ALmighty). The I AM
All your gods bow to Him.
The God I worship and give thanks to is the one who died a Calvary for you and me to show He loves us.
This origanal Sin spoken of in the above posts is ours and ours alone we refused God and wanted to do our own thing even to this very day. (Sin)
Why should the God of everything want with you !!!What have you done today that warrents His attention let alone His love ? and His dieing for you !!! To free you from our bonds and pay the price God demands of each one of us.
In just every day world of things if I wronged you would you want an apoligy ? Or is road rage the way of things ?
God made us and we refused Him, is this a wrong ?
By the way my God can and has raised the dead and will raise you for judgement .The God of this universe made man and all that is. Knows all and see all ! Can your god do that ? Or will he remember you at all. Does you god know you even exist ? .
The God of the universe not only knows you but knows your name the number of hairs on your head all about you even before the foundation of the world . You are imortant to Him..
What do you know of Him?
The writters of this world get there information from where? Not the Bible !!! May be from there god who speaks to them ?
The Bible is the word of God and This book claims we are lost and will see Hells fire if we do not respect the God of this unverse (The I AM ) !!
Hope you will turn to Him and give Him the respect due Him. If you don't Hells fire is in the wings !!
One who casually reads the Bible might over look all through Gods words it speaks of the coming of the Messiah and the suffering Savior for Israel.
While my comments on here have always asserted that I think my beliefs are true, I'd ask you to show where my comments have indicated fanaticism.
I respect the differences among different faiths; instead of trying to write them off I give them the importance they deserve. While I think many of the differences that divide Christians are a result of the languages and paradigms that different groups use, it would be insulting to label two contradicting beliefs as somehow both true.
The things that divide us are important. If they're not then all those who have devoted their entire lives to their faith, whatever religion that is, have done so in vain.
I'll pray for your recovery and your faith, please pray for me too.
There are some of us ecuminical Christians, including a Presbyterian minister who allows that presbertery is inclining this way, that do not even accept the doctrine of origional sin.
Most of you folks have been laboring under this onus for thousands of years while us luckier folks try to envision ourselves as children of God.
Brian Walden said: "Secondly, when you die be sure to thank Jesus for pouring Himself into flesh and allowing us to torture and crucify Him so that everyone can believe whatever they want."
You torture and crucify him daily, Brian. I don't think your branch of Catholicism has made you kinder and wiser. You are failing Christ, Our Lord. Avoid fanaticism.
And having had colon cancer that now has spread to my liver and lungs I may be dying earlier than you thought. And God doesn't have to wait to know how grateful I am for his presence in the world, in my life (a pretty darn unhappy life too, I'm good to go). I am very grateful for witnessing so many unworldly acts of kindness and compassion, of discovering great wisdom in the most unlikely places, from the most unlikely people. I see grace, his spirit, in the world daily. God has been very good to me. I feel so privileged.
Brian, God is a relativist, don't choose hell. Come on over to our side. Just imagine getting to the pearly gates and after giving God thanks, God says to you. " Just what part of loving me and loving your neighbors didn't you get?"
Steve said: "American Catholics are a different breed of Catholic. We know so many people of other faiths to know there is nothing defective in them or their beliefs. Character is the only way to judge another person. We all know that. Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Hindu. If your faith leads you to be a better person, then that God, that church, is true."
First of all American Catholics cannot be a different breed of Catholics, the Church is either universal or it isn't.
Secondly, when you die be sure to thank Jesus for pouring Himself into flesh and allowing us to torture and crucify Him so that everyone can believe whatever they want. Same for the Apostles and all the rest of the martyrs too. I hope that goes over well for you.
I'm an American and a Catholic, but I want nothing to do with the supposed "American Catholics" you describe. If God is a relativist, I'll take Hell.
Pope Benedict claims to be a descendant of St. Peter and God's emissary on earth. But there is genealogical connection. He is merely one more man, elected by fellow cardinals to head his church.
A church that believes in some things as dogma, which wood be called ridiculous if they happened today.
There are many who have felt they had a direct line to God and started a new church, some of them lasting and successful. There are many denominations that came from the first "christian" church. The beliefs were decided on at various times by a self appointed select group; those that did not agree to the new version were kicked out. (Council of Niceae).
What Benedict seems to forget, that because he was elected Pope, he is still a mortal man who is very fallible.
Perhaps when Bush visited the Pope, they exchanged pointers on how to remain infallible in the view of the true believers. Both work to retain their power.
CTCNL, original sin is the sin of origin meaning birth, specifically not being the 'firstborn' son of God, Pharaoh. Amenophis IV was born with original sin. She had an older brother that suffered an untimely death, (slaughter of the babes at Bethlehem) that was the firstborn son, (also see death of the firstborn son of the Egyptian). She also had a half brother mothered by the 'other wonan in the life of Amenophis III. Cain killed Able, uh, Amenopthis IV killed half brother and took the crown, claimed to be the son of God. God punished Cain with a strange mark on his?? forehead, (gold cobra symbol of Pharaoh) that some said looked like a horn. Since A4 was not the firstborn son she had to be 'baptized' before becoming the son of God, Pharaoh.
Can anyone tell me why she, Amen.ophis IV was ABSOLUTELY NOT the son of God? Jesus was guilty as charged, not the son of God as claimed.
"The catholic Eucharist is Jesus by the way, that is what Jesus said at the Last Supper and that is what He meant and also when the Holy Spirit came into my body on 29 Jan 2000."
And what "pretty wingie talking thingie" accomplished that bit of magic???
And the history jury of many NT exegetes have concluded that the Last Supper scenario was heavily if not completely made up.
Not historic Jesus - Supper and Eucharist: (1a) 1 Cor 10:14-22; (1b) 1 Cor 11:23-25; (2) Mark 14:22-25 = Matt 26:26-29 = Luke 22:15-19a[19b-20]; (3) Did. 9:1-4; (4) John 6:51b-58.
At the same time, Luedemann concludes that the portrayal of Jesus celebrating such a ritual on the night before his death is not historical. He is clear that there is "no generic relationship" between any actual final meal and the Lord's Supper understood in cultic terms. He also denies the Passover character of the supper as a Markan creation. Like Meier (below), Luedemann does accept the saying (Mark 14:25) about drinking wine in the kingdom of God as authentic. He concludes: (this saying) "hardly came into being in the early community, for in it Jesus does not exercise any special function for believers at the festal meal in heaven which is imminent. Only Jesus' expectation of a the future kingdom of God stands at the centre, not Jesus as saviour, judge or intercessor."
"I think the difference is that Catholics stress the necessity of being in full communion with the Church in order to receive communion. If you have an important reason to receive Catholic communion you can ask the diocesan bishop of the parish you'd like to attend Mass at for permission. I'd also like to stress that everyone is welcome at Mass and all are encouraged to make a spiritual communion with Christ even if they cannot receive the sacrament. I often do this myself when I'm not able to receive."
All in all, a generous, good, and kindly reply. I thank you, and am convinced we pursue the same goal, even if we have slightly differing roads! I begin to understand where you stand, and I respect it.
Original sin and Baptism in the contemporary Catholic Church as per graduate theology classes at many large Catholic universities (e.g. Catholic U and Notre Dame):
Original Sin is only symbolic of the sins of our origins -- in our
families and in the broader society, both of which affect each person
profoundly. The "sins of our origins" approach helps to account for certain
patterns of sin in particular families and societies.
Baptism does not erase original sin since the sin does not exist (because A&E the sinners did not exist). The old "laundry of the soul," approach to Baptism is no longer accepted.
Infant Baptism is only a rite of initiation and commits parents and godparents to bringing up the child in a Christian home.
Since baptism is now celebrated at Sunday Eucharist, all the members of the parish family are encouraged to pledge their support and care for the faith life of the newly baptized. (A manifestation of this is
persons volunteering to teach other people's kids the basics of Catholicism.)"
Again, you like many of us have been bred, born and brainwashed in the Roman Catholic Church. We have been converted to a cult group over the centuries by believing everything the popes say. In the last 200 years, the cult effects are being slowly eroded and we are beginning to heal.
Please read about the historic Jesus before again proclaiming yourself to be the Moses of the NT.
Hold on!!! and read carefully what Professor JD Crossan, an On Faith panelist, has to say about atoning for sin:
(from his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)
"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."
"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."
"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."
I'm a believing Catholic but this pope doesn't speak for me. He seems like he would have been better suited living in the dark ages. What an incredible contrast from John Paul II. John Paul II lived Christ's message. This pope only reads the text.
To my fellow people of all faiths please know this. American Catholics are a different breed of Catholic. We know so many people of other faiths to know there is nothing defective in them or their beliefs. Character is the only way to judge another person. We all know that. Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Hindu. If your faith leads you to be a better person, then that God, that church, is true.
It's always the people with big mouths that ruin things for everyone else.
If there's anyone who knows that there is no God,
it's gotta be the pope.
As God's representative on Planet Earth,
he must have tried contacting him but,
as there is no God,he can only have failed.
But then that's what Faith is all about,I guess.
You just gotta believe,no matter what.
You just gotta close your eyes and say I BELIEVE!
To hell with common sense,and to hell with reality.
So what if it's all in the mind,and only in the mind.
Maybe that's what Francis Bacon was trying to depict,
in his paintings of caged popes screaming.
A few things one should find out before they rattle the rafters of Religion.
Supposingly Religon is the way to God by good works. One can work there way through this life and many more and not pay the price to enter heaven!
The Lord Jesus died and paid the price on Clavarys cross to pay for our sins yours and mine . (All humanity )Salvation is a gift. Refuse this HOLY gift and one is doomed to HELLS Fire. . All religons will led you to seperation from God. Nither your baptizime or prayers will give you eternal life Only though the blood of the Lord Jesus spilled at calvery, cleanse us of our sin.. Sripture tells us with out the blood of Jesus Christ there is no salvation.
We all sin and are sinners though Christ paid the price and we a free .Clensed by His blood !We are washed by the Blood of the Lamb.
Go to your Church where ever it is and refuse the Lord you are in trouble !The Lord Jesus is head of HIS Church(not ours or theres )Look to Him and Him alone ! He paid for it with His blood !!
The Bride is the Chruch and there is only one Bride ( Bride church same meaning ) and Christ is the head ( the Groom).
Read your Bible and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be save from that HOT day !The Bible is the word of God. Trust it or die !
The answer in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is: "1400: Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, "have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders."239 It is for this reason that, for the Catholic Church, Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not possible. However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper . . . profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory."240"
I think the difference is that Catholics stress the necessity of being in full communion with the Church in order to receive communion. If you have an important reason to receive Catholic communion you can ask the diocesan bishop of the parish you'd like to attend Mass at for permission. I'd also like to stress that everyone is welcome at Mass and all are encouraged to make a spiritual communion with Christ even if they cannot receive the sacrament. I often do this myself when I'm not able to receive.
While Catholics are allowed by your Church to receive your communion they are not allowed by the Catholic Church to do so. We do this out of respect both for your church and for ours. While we're happy to worship with you (I regularly attend my wife's Presbyterian church) we are not in full communion with your church so we don't receive your communion. To Catholics receiving communion means accepting all the beliefs of that church; so in a sense we would be lying by receiving other's communion (which is not to say you're lying by so generously offering us your communion, we just have different rules).
I agree that your church is more inclusive. That may make it more ecumenical, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. Many non-Catholics use ecumenism and inclusion almost interchangeably, but that's not how Catholics see it. For Catholics ecumenism means that both sides openly and honestly share their beliefs admitting both how close and how distant they are. In this sense inclusion can sometimes be bad for ecumenism if it denies our differences for the sake of an incomplete sense of unity. I hope that helps, I know you probably don't agree, but that's the best I can put it.
We sure seem to get caught up in things that are a distraction to say the least. I am a catholic and I cherish my catholic faith, and my job as the New Testament Moses is to tell the whole world that everybody will be in the Kingdom of God or if you prefer the Kingdom of Love, since God is Pure Love. The catholic Eucharist is Jesus by the way, that is what Jesus said at the Last Supper and that is what He meant and also when the Holy Spirit came into my body on 29 Jan 2000, He revealed it to me, thank you Holy Spirit. God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, the only true religion is taking care of widows and orphans, which basically is the whole human race since we are all brothers and sisters. Thank you Dad for Your Plan, thank you Brother for your obedience to The Plan and thank you Knitting Buddy for bringing The Plan to Fruition. By the way the preceding sentence is referring to God the Trinity; Father-Jesus said to think of Him as our Dad, Brother-Jesus by choosing to become a human being and asking permission from Mary, who freely said her Yes, became humanity's Brother as in the entire human race, Knitting Buddy, the Holy Spirit who knits us together in our mother's womb. Jesus won the keys to hell and spiritual death and He will use them in due time. God has never sent anyone to hell because He can't, you have to build it yourself first. People that slice and dice the bible would be better off throwing the whole bible away, Jesus said a lot of things when He was walking on this planet a while back and if you don't know what He was talking about, don't try to mislead others. The whole bible is true and there is probably plenty in there that I don't know what it means but I don't have too, I am just a messenger and the message is: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable; we are in the sixth day, they are God Days by the way, and night is coming, be ready, the dawning of the seventh day will also be here. It seems like a lot of people will be trying to hide behind their religion but God looks at what you do and why you do it and also what you know. God is so so so much nicer than some of the people that call themselves christians think that He is and sad to say, than some want Him to be. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
You said:
"ARMINUIUS, You asked that we correct you if you are wrong and you are wrong.
The Catholic Church believes it is a sin for anyone not in full communion with the Church to receive Holy Communion. It doesn't matter whether that person is Catholic or not. Not even the Pope can receive communion if he's not properly disposed. This has nothing at all to do with ecumenism."
Brian,
With all due respect, I think you have misunderstood what I said.
"Full communion" - I presume (you did not define) that 'properly disposed' means being in step with your church's requirements, as well as having done confession. We Episcopalians have similar requirements: to put ourselves in the right mindset to receive the sacrament, and confess our sins. So where are we with this?
Also - you, as a baptised Christian, can receive the Eucharist at any Anglican church in the world. So far as I know, I cannot do that at any Roman Catholic church anywhere. This means, at least to me, that we are more ecumenical. Or, at least more inclusive, as our Lord would have wished.
where is Jesus in this discussion. Christianity is derived from our personal ability to communicate with and consult God whenever we need to in the face of evil. Division such as that mentioned above is evil and is of Satan. Satan wants to divide all Christian communities and look up top, it is working.
Instead of thinking about something theologically witty to put here, remember that Christians are all cleansed of their sins by the blood of Christ and the sacrifice He made for us on the Cross. In that he fulfills the prophecy of the Old Testament and has set us forth as Christians to go forth and carry out the Great Commission.
Up top is not the great commission, instead figuring out how to curb the AIDS epidemic, feed starving black African babies, end global poverty and meet the needs of new believers is our charge. Go do that and don't worry about this. He'll be there one day to judge us all, and remember that if you fall and stumble he has already paid the ultimate price to bear the weight of your sins.
Have a beautiful day,
Regular Christian Guy in brotherhood with all other Christians regardless of denomination, geographical location, race, creed, sex, income level, education level, cultural background, prior transgressions, or appearance.
I agree with you.
Its beyond strange that despite 9/11,people
still see religious belief as somehow virtuous.
The faith of the Muslim martyrs should at least
give us pause to consider the destructive power
of irrational religious belief.
It threatens us all,and is enabled by the respect
we give to the equally preposterous Christian belief,
which was once the scourge of Europe and
the New world,and only since the Enlightenment
has become somewhat benign,but just as irrational
as Islam.
"Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.
"While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.
"An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it."
Wouldn't it be nice if most Americans went back to being Deist. Our founding fathers were deist. Many philosophers and intellectuals were deist. Why would anyone care what some old man in a palace in Rome thinks about which religion is the true one. In fact, none of them are. If he believes that the RCC is the true church, so be it. He is entitled to his delusions as are the other priest, pastors, ministers, preachers, imans, ect. We must put logic, reason and mathematics at our forfront. It is what this country was founded on. Enough with this silliness from these so called revealed religions. Giving it creasence can be dangerous over the long term.
Catholics recognize that anyone baptized with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a Christian. Therefore, Christ is present at your church services and whenever you pray together or do works in His name. What Catholics don't believe, for example, is that the bread and wine at your communion services literally turn into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. But you probably also agree that the bread and wine don't literally become Christ's Flesh and Blood.
Sorry for commenting so much, I'm just trying to help clear up misconceptions.
what is wrong with that dude ???? (DAS DEUTSCHE HOMOPHOBIC POPE AND EX HITLER YOUTH MOVEMENT MEMBER ) in rome he runs around in full drag each and everyday!! same dude wants to have the holy mass in latin so no one will understand what is going on!! our cardinal here in los angles has to sell the church office buildings so he will be able to settle the lawsuits pertaining to all the young girls and boys that were raped in his churches! oh jesus what a hokus pokus this jesus/god stuff .lets say it loud and clear "RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM AND NOT THE ANSWER" oh jesus mother maria and i used to think that falwell and robertson were trash!
I think we just use the language differently. When a Christian says sacramental it's usually implied that they mean it in the Christian way - something which helps us enter into the mystery of Christ. It sounds like your marriage was very sacramental (revealing the mysteries of what you believe in) in the general, non-Christian sense.
"I can see how you wouldn't consider my marriage Christian, since we aren't, and that's fine with me, but our wedding ritual was most definitely sacramental. There were sacraments from both of our spiritual paths. There was spiritual purifiaction via divine Light, the elements were invoked, sacred vows were exchanged, prayers were chanted, all with appropriate sincerity."
Not Christian sacramental, and in the eyes of Christian belief, the truth of any sacrament involves Jesus Christ.
Brian:
That's a little clearer, I think. I guess it's a good thing I'm not Catholic. I would have a major problem with having to ask someone else's permission to marry the person I loved in another church in order to have my church recognize the marriage.
And I'm not sure what the difference is between the church recognizing a marriage as valid, but not sacramental.
I can see how you wouldn't consider my marriage Christian, since we aren't, and that's fine with me, but our wedding ritual was most definitely sacramental. There were sacraments from both of our spiritual paths. There was spiritual purifiaction via divine Light, the elements were invoked, sacred vows were exchanged, prayers were chanted, all with appropriate sincerity.
It is baptism that makes of a person a Christian, and wherever there are the baptized, there is the Church. Benedict's position on the matter is simply incorrect.
Your friend's marriage isn't regarded as a valid sacramental marriage by the Catholic Church, because he didn't get the permission of his Bishop to be married outside of Catholic Church. Being Catholic he's bound to do that. For the same reason, two Catholics who get married by a justice of the peace aren't considered sacramentally married. I married my Presbyterian wife in her church, but we got permission and went through the Catholic Church's marriage preparation classes in addition to the meetings with her pastor and it was fine.
Two Protestants who get married obviously aren't bound to get permission from a Catholic Bishop. The Catholic Church considers their marriage to be a valid Christian marriage.
Your marriage to your husband is a valid marriage in the eyes of the Catholic Church, but seeing as how you are not Christian it is not a sacramental Christian marriage. I think you and the Catholic Church would see eye to eye here.
If you are selling Absolute Truth then contradictory ideas are problematic to your enterprise.
Therefore, if I were the Pope relativism would be at the top of my list of dislikes. Getting along with other religious groups is fine, but I'd be trying to tamp down any substancial sharing of ideas toward a greater ecumenicalism. It'd be bad for my business.
As an atheist i am always pleased to see squabbling
amongst the different religions.
I would be alarmed if they all agreed
with each other.
The fact that they can never agree,tells the rest of us that there is no
one true religion;thus they are all false.
Mark Twain again..."The quiet confidence with
which I know another man's religion to be folly,
makes me suspect that mine is also".
All Comments (98)
m848k
August 25, 2007 2:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 25, 2007 02:50
m848k
August 25, 2007 2:49 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 25, 2007 02:49
m848k
August 25, 2007 2:48 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 25, 2007 02:48
To Concerned the christian now liberated and the rest of the world: I am not a NT scholar, I am just a messenger chosen by God to be who He created me to be. One of the things written in the bible is, "I will send the simple to confound the wise", well, "Here I am". Jesus also said, "I will send the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth", He did not say that He would send a bunch of NT scholars to guide us into all truth, did He? God's Plan is simple but how it all ties together only God knows. I am so glad that God is nothing like what so many people that call themselves christians think that He is. God really is Love, He is not a loving God but a Being of Pure Love, Love is not an attribute of God, I was taught in second grade that God is Love and I just accepted it at the time, I did not know that the statement, God is Love, was literal until God the Father came into my heart on the 28th of Jan 2000. As it says in revelations, "God will declare Victory in favor of the Holy Ones" and God always sends a messenger ahead of time, that messenger happens to be me, as God said in the bible, "Remember I have chosen you, you haven't chosen me", I remember and I have replied Yes to being chosen. I am thankful for God's Plan and one day All of humanity will be thankful for His Plan also. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
July 25, 2007 5:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 25, 2007 17:41
Thomas,
Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen plus a large number of other NT scholars over the past 200 years have reviewed the NT documents, the documents that went into their preparation and all the associated documentation. By comparing the number of attestations and stratums in these books, they were able to separate the "wheat from the chaff". I highly recommend the same analyses for anyone interested in what really happened in Palestine in the first to third century CE.
Some references to get you started:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
July 24, 2007 11:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 24, 2007 23:40
To Concerned the Christian now Liberated: That quote as per J. D. Crosson, From Crossan and Watts book who is Jesus? Is that the garbage that the theologians are trying to pass off as theological enlightenment and watered down christianity? Thank You. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
July 24, 2007 7:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 24, 2007 19:38
Thomas,
The same thing happens to most people when they have a glass of wine.
July 23, 2007 9:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 23, 2007 21:15
To Concerned the Christian now liberated and the rest of the world: The Holy Spirit that came into my body well if you haven't ever met the Holy Spirit personally that there isn't much I can say about it and if other people have personally met the Holy Spirit, I don't know how they would explain it, sometimies maybe we should let God be God and do whatever He does, however He does it. As far as "pretty wingie talking thingie", I have no idea where you came up with that set of words, but when the Holy Spirit came into my body, I did not see him nor did He directly say anything to me, I just knew when He let me know, because in God's Wisdom, He knew I needed to know some things to do the job that He chose me for, and by the way I don't consider it my job but Our Job, God and me. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
July 23, 2007 5:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 23, 2007 17:38
Who ever is involved with forum eather do not understand or are on drugs. Not but one person Steve, has made an sents in this group
Am signing off
Good luck with your lives they are going to be short. Christ is coming are you ready????
July 21, 2007 8:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 21, 2007 20:42
Oh where, Oh where, art thou Moroni? Ditto for Gabriel, Michael, Tinkerbell, Tubuas, Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, Raguel, the Seraphim and the Cherubim?????
Hold on, we just received an e-mail from St. Peter. Apparently, Satan stole all the angel PC's and therefore there have been no angelic commentaries on this blog. St. Peter sends his apologies. Stay tuned though, I hear Michael Dell is trying to sign an agreement with St. Peter for new laptops for the "pretty wingie thingies".
July 21, 2007 6:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 21, 2007 18:07
If you believe judeo-christian religion(s), you're simply naive and gullible. Go on, believe in the lies you've been told since childhood, indulge in your perpetual infancy.
I imagine the consolation of improbable fantasies is comforting.
July 20, 2007 10:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 20, 2007 22:48
John,
Thanks for the concern. Actually I am at peace now with my "Catholic" religion. It is amazing how the attestation/stratum analyses used by the Jesus Seminarians, e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, agree with what is currently being taught in graduate theology classes at many large Catholic universities (e.g. Catholic U, Notre Dame).
Major agreements achieved but by different methods:
1. There was no physical resurrection (i.e. Heaven is a Spirit State)
2. And it therefore follows there was no ascension and no assumption.
3. There is/was no original sin. A&E were fictional characters living in mythical land.
4. And it therefore follows, baptism does not erase original sin since there is no sin to erase. Limbo therefore is a non-issue.
5. Jesus was crucified but details of the deed have little historic verification.
As per J.D. Crossan,
From Crossan and Watts book, Who is Jesus????
“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety. I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."
July 20, 2007 6:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 20, 2007 18:34
Liberated, Christian?????
Your insight is excellent and accurate !though kind of hard to unerstand. CHRISTAN LIBERATED ???
A Christain in the terms of The Holy Bible is one who is Christ like.
Are you saying you are liberated from Christ or from Christianity or both ?
Then where is there room for a god in your life.
With these statements you must be a very confused person what or who do you believe ?this does not leave room for any truths, but lies. Your in a delma! Free, are you sure you are free ?
Time and time alone has proved the reality of the Holy Bible .It does not have to be defended.
You are but one voice in the darkness, get in line. Free, no, you are a slave to this darkness.
July 20, 2007 9:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 20, 2007 09:43
Brian,
"The things that divide us are important. If they're not then all those who have devoted their entire lives to their faith, whatever religion that is, have done so in vain."
But you don't believe God is a relativist. So then you believe that those who dedicate their lives to faiths other than Catholicism are doing so in vain. That's uncharitable. And it presumes putting yourself in God's place to make the ultimate judgments that only He alone can make.
"The things that divide us are important". No, that can't be. Christ was a peacemaker. What peacemaker would recommend focusing on the things that divide, rather than the things that unite.
Jesus talked about a good God. All loving, all merciful. I believe him. I'm betting my life on it.
Thank you for your prayers. I will pray we both become wiser.
July 20, 2007 4:09 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 20, 2007 04:09
John,
You noted:
"The Bible is the word of God"
And your attestations to this are????
And your communicating angel's name is?
Some suggestions:
Joe Smith had his Moroni.
Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinker bell" got around).
Jesus and his family and scribes had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.
The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.
Some added references to "tinker bell" names:
"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."
Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.
Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also had their share of angel names/hallucinating:
"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."
July 19, 2007 5:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 19, 2007 17:26
Intrest testimony of souls who think they are worthy of God's love.
It is we who refuse Him It is He (God) who wants our attention. We refuse to pay homage to Him but in our own way. Total,disrespect !!
First of all the god you speak of is a most small god who can do nothing but what you think he can. you control him and will not show Him respect unless you can monipulate !.
The God of the Bride,(the Church) Jesus the Christ is able to do anything. One may respect that or not.He is but what He is, the Almighty (ALmighty). The I AM
All your gods bow to Him.
The God I worship and give thanks to is the one who died a Calvary for you and me to show He loves us.
This origanal Sin spoken of in the above posts is ours and ours alone we refused God and wanted to do our own thing even to this very day. (Sin)
Why should the God of everything want with you !!!What have you done today that warrents His attention let alone His love ? and His dieing for you !!! To free you from our bonds and pay the price God demands of each one of us.
In just every day world of things if I wronged you would you want an apoligy ? Or is road rage the way of things ?
God made us and we refused Him, is this a wrong ?
By the way my God can and has raised the dead and will raise you for judgement .The God of this universe made man and all that is. Knows all and see all ! Can your god do that ? Or will he remember you at all. Does you god know you even exist ? .
The God of the universe not only knows you but knows your name the number of hairs on your head all about you even before the foundation of the world . You are imortant to Him..
What do you know of Him?
The writters of this world get there information from where? Not the Bible !!! May be from there god who speaks to them ?
The Bible is the word of God and This book claims we are lost and will see Hells fire if we do not respect the God of this unverse (The I AM ) !!
Hope you will turn to Him and give Him the respect due Him. If you don't Hells fire is in the wings !!
One who casually reads the Bible might over look all through Gods words it speaks of the coming of the Messiah and the suffering Savior for Israel.
July 19, 2007 4:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 19, 2007 16:18
Intrest testimony of souls who think they are worthy of God's love.
It is we who refuse Him It is He (God) who wants our attention. We refuse to pay homage to Him but in our own way. Total,disrespect !!
First of all the god you speak of is a most small god who can do nothing but what you think he can. you control him and will not show Him respect unless you can monipulate !.
The God of the Bride,(the Church) Jesus the Christ is able to do anything. One may respect that or not.He is but what He is, the Almighty (ALmighty). The I AM
All your gods bow to Him.
The God I worship and give thanks to is the one who died a Calvary for you and me to show He loves us.
This origanal Sin spoken of in the above posts is ours and ours alone we refused God and wanted to do our own thing even to this very day. (Sin)
Why should the God of everything want with you !!!What have you done today that warrents His attention let alone His love ? and His dieing for you !!! To free you from our bonds and pay the price God demands of each one of us.
In just every day world of things if I wronged you would you want an apoligy ? Or is road rage the way of things ?
God made us and we refused Him, is this a wrong ?
By the way my God can and has raised the dead and will raise you for judgement .The God of this universe made man and all that is. Knows all and see all ! Can your god do that ? Or will he remember you at all. Does you god know you even exist ? .
The God of the universe not only knows you but knows your name the number of hairs on your head all about you even before the foundation of the world . You are imortant to Him..
What do you know of Him?
The writters of this world get there information from where? Not the Bible !!! May be from there god who speaks to them ?
The Bible is the word of God and This book claims we are lost and will see Hells fire if we do not respect the God of this unverse (The I AM ) !!
Hope you will turn to Him and give Him the respect due Him. If you don't Hells fire is in the wings !!
One who casually reads the Bible might over look all through Gods words it speaks of the coming of the Messiah and the suffering Savior for Israel.
July 19, 2007 4:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 19, 2007 16:18
Steve,
While my comments on here have always asserted that I think my beliefs are true, I'd ask you to show where my comments have indicated fanaticism.
I respect the differences among different faiths; instead of trying to write them off I give them the importance they deserve. While I think many of the differences that divide Christians are a result of the languages and paradigms that different groups use, it would be insulting to label two contradicting beliefs as somehow both true.
The things that divide us are important. If they're not then all those who have devoted their entire lives to their faith, whatever religion that is, have done so in vain.
I'll pray for your recovery and your faith, please pray for me too.
July 19, 2007 8:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 19, 2007 08:57
There are some of us ecuminical Christians, including a Presbyterian minister who allows that presbertery is inclining this way, that do not even accept the doctrine of origional sin.
Most of you folks have been laboring under this onus for thousands of years while us luckier folks try to envision ourselves as children of God.
July 19, 2007 8:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 19, 2007 08:37
Brian Walden said: "Secondly, when you die be sure to thank Jesus for pouring Himself into flesh and allowing us to torture and crucify Him so that everyone can believe whatever they want."
You torture and crucify him daily, Brian. I don't think your branch of Catholicism has made you kinder and wiser. You are failing Christ, Our Lord. Avoid fanaticism.
And having had colon cancer that now has spread to my liver and lungs I may be dying earlier than you thought. And God doesn't have to wait to know how grateful I am for his presence in the world, in my life (a pretty darn unhappy life too, I'm good to go). I am very grateful for witnessing so many unworldly acts of kindness and compassion, of discovering great wisdom in the most unlikely places, from the most unlikely people. I see grace, his spirit, in the world daily. God has been very good to me. I feel so privileged.
Brian, God is a relativist, don't choose hell. Come on over to our side. Just imagine getting to the pearly gates and after giving God thanks, God says to you. " Just what part of loving me and loving your neighbors didn't you get?"
July 19, 2007 2:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 19, 2007 02:59
"This is widely understood. But . . . should this actually be said in a very public way? "
What? The Pope should individually whisper into each Catholic ear to avoid offending Non-Catholics?
July 18, 2007 11:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 23:20
Steve said: "American Catholics are a different breed of Catholic. We know so many people of other faiths to know there is nothing defective in them or their beliefs. Character is the only way to judge another person. We all know that. Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Hindu. If your faith leads you to be a better person, then that God, that church, is true."
First of all American Catholics cannot be a different breed of Catholics, the Church is either universal or it isn't.
Secondly, when you die be sure to thank Jesus for pouring Himself into flesh and allowing us to torture and crucify Him so that everyone can believe whatever they want. Same for the Apostles and all the rest of the martyrs too. I hope that goes over well for you.
I'm an American and a Catholic, but I want nothing to do with the supposed "American Catholics" you describe. If God is a relativist, I'll take Hell.
July 18, 2007 11:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 23:00
Pope Benedict claims to be a descendant of St. Peter and God's emissary on earth. But there is genealogical connection. He is merely one more man, elected by fellow cardinals to head his church.
A church that believes in some things as dogma, which wood be called ridiculous if they happened today.
There are many who have felt they had a direct line to God and started a new church, some of them lasting and successful. There are many denominations that came from the first "christian" church. The beliefs were decided on at various times by a self appointed select group; those that did not agree to the new version were kicked out. (Council of Niceae).
What Benedict seems to forget, that because he was elected Pope, he is still a mortal man who is very fallible.
Perhaps when Bush visited the Pope, they exchanged pointers on how to remain infallible in the view of the true believers. Both work to retain their power.
July 18, 2007 10:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 22:57
Thanks Arminius,
But don't give me too much credit, I'm just doing my best to explain the Catholic party line.
God bless.
July 18, 2007 10:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 22:51
I take that as a compliment, yoyo. Thank you.
July 18, 2007 9:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 21:27
I take that as a complement, yoyo. Thank you.
July 18, 2007 9:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 21:26
CTCNL, original sin is the sin of origin meaning birth, specifically not being the 'firstborn' son of God, Pharaoh. Amenophis IV was born with original sin. She had an older brother that suffered an untimely death, (slaughter of the babes at Bethlehem) that was the firstborn son, (also see death of the firstborn son of the Egyptian). She also had a half brother mothered by the 'other wonan in the life of Amenophis III. Cain killed Able, uh, Amenopthis IV killed half brother and took the crown, claimed to be the son of God. God punished Cain with a strange mark on his?? forehead, (gold cobra symbol of Pharaoh) that some said looked like a horn. Since A4 was not the firstborn son she had to be 'baptized' before becoming the son of God, Pharaoh.
Can anyone tell me why she, Amen.ophis IV was ABSOLUTELY NOT the son of God? Jesus was guilty as charged, not the son of God as claimed.
July 18, 2007 9:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 21:16
Thomas Baum,
You noted:
"The catholic Eucharist is Jesus by the way, that is what Jesus said at the Last Supper and that is what He meant and also when the Holy Spirit came into my body on 29 Jan 2000."
And what "pretty wingie talking thingie" accomplished that bit of magic???
And the history jury of many NT exegetes have concluded that the Last Supper scenario was heavily if not completely made up.
Not historic Jesus - Supper and Eucharist: (1a) 1 Cor 10:14-22; (1b) 1 Cor 11:23-25; (2) Mark 14:22-25 = Matt 26:26-29 = Luke 22:15-19a[19b-20]; (3) Did. 9:1-4; (4) John 6:51b-58.
An excerpt from http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/016_Supper_and_Eucharist
At the same time, Luedemann concludes that the portrayal of Jesus celebrating such a ritual on the night before his death is not historical. He is clear that there is "no generic relationship" between any actual final meal and the Lord's Supper understood in cultic terms. He also denies the Passover character of the supper as a Markan creation. Like Meier (below), Luedemann does accept the saying (Mark 14:25) about drinking wine in the kingdom of God as authentic. He concludes: (this saying) "hardly came into being in the early community, for in it Jesus does not exercise any special function for believers at the festal meal in heaven which is imminent. Only Jesus' expectation of a the future kingdom of God stands at the centre, not Jesus as saviour, judge or intercessor."
July 18, 2007 9:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 21:03
Brian,
You said :
"I think the difference is that Catholics stress the necessity of being in full communion with the Church in order to receive communion. If you have an important reason to receive Catholic communion you can ask the diocesan bishop of the parish you'd like to attend Mass at for permission. I'd also like to stress that everyone is welcome at Mass and all are encouraged to make a spiritual communion with Christ even if they cannot receive the sacrament. I often do this myself when I'm not able to receive."
All in all, a generous, good, and kindly reply. I thank you, and am convinced we pursue the same goal, even if we have slightly differing roads! I begin to understand where you stand, and I respect it.
God bless!
July 18, 2007 8:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 20:36
Original sin and Baptism in the contemporary Catholic Church as per graduate theology classes at many large Catholic universities (e.g. Catholic U and Notre Dame):
Original Sin is only symbolic of the sins of our origins -- in our
families and in the broader society, both of which affect each person
profoundly. The "sins of our origins" approach helps to account for certain
patterns of sin in particular families and societies.
Baptism does not erase original sin since the sin does not exist (because A&E the sinners did not exist). The old "laundry of the soul," approach to Baptism is no longer accepted.
Infant Baptism is only a rite of initiation and commits parents and godparents to bringing up the child in a Christian home.
Since baptism is now celebrated at Sunday Eucharist, all the members of the parish family are encouraged to pledge their support and care for the faith life of the newly baptized. (A manifestation of this is
persons volunteering to teach other people's kids the basics of Catholicism.)"
July 18, 2007 8:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 20:32
Thomas Baum,
Again, you like many of us have been bred, born and brainwashed in the Roman Catholic Church. We have been converted to a cult group over the centuries by believing everything the popes say. In the last 200 years, the cult effects are being slowly eroded and we are beginning to heal.
Please read about the historic Jesus before again proclaiming yourself to be the Moses of the NT.
July 18, 2007 8:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 20:21
John,
Hold on!!! and read carefully what Professor JD Crossan, an On Faith panelist, has to say about atoning for sin:
(from his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)
"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."
"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."
"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."
July 18, 2007 8:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 20:15
The above post is mine.
July 18, 2007 8:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 20:01
I'm a believing Catholic but this pope doesn't speak for me. He seems like he would have been better suited living in the dark ages. What an incredible contrast from John Paul II. John Paul II lived Christ's message. This pope only reads the text.
To my fellow people of all faiths please know this. American Catholics are a different breed of Catholic. We know so many people of other faiths to know there is nothing defective in them or their beliefs. Character is the only way to judge another person. We all know that. Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Hindu. If your faith leads you to be a better person, then that God, that church, is true.
It's always the people with big mouths that ruin things for everyone else.
July 18, 2007 7:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 19:59
If there's anyone who knows that there is no God,
it's gotta be the pope.
As God's representative on Planet Earth,
he must have tried contacting him but,
as there is no God,he can only have failed.
But then that's what Faith is all about,I guess.
You just gotta believe,no matter what.
You just gotta close your eyes and say I BELIEVE!
To hell with common sense,and to hell with reality.
So what if it's all in the mind,and only in the mind.
Maybe that's what Francis Bacon was trying to depict,
in his paintings of caged popes screaming.
July 18, 2007 7:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 19:55
A few things one should find out before they rattle the rafters of Religion.
Supposingly Religon is the way to God by good works. One can work there way through this life and many more and not pay the price to enter heaven!
The Lord Jesus died and paid the price on Clavarys cross to pay for our sins yours and mine . (All humanity )Salvation is a gift. Refuse this HOLY gift and one is doomed to HELLS Fire. . All religons will led you to seperation from God. Nither your baptizime or prayers will give you eternal life Only though the blood of the Lord Jesus spilled at calvery, cleanse us of our sin.. Sripture tells us with out the blood of Jesus Christ there is no salvation.
We all sin and are sinners though Christ paid the price and we a free .Clensed by His blood !We are washed by the Blood of the Lamb.
Go to your Church where ever it is and refuse the Lord you are in trouble !The Lord Jesus is head of HIS Church(not ours or theres )Look to Him and Him alone ! He paid for it with His blood !!
The Bride is the Chruch and there is only one Bride ( Bride church same meaning ) and Christ is the head ( the Groom).
Read your Bible and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be save from that HOT day !The Bible is the word of God. Trust it or die !
July 18, 2007 7:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 19:37
Arminius,
The answer in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is: "1400: Ecclesial communities derived from the Reformation and separated from the Catholic Church, "have not preserved the proper reality of the Eucharistic mystery in its fullness, especially because of the absence of the sacrament of Holy Orders."239 It is for this reason that, for the Catholic Church, Eucharistic intercommunion with these communities is not possible. However these ecclesial communities, "when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper . . . profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and await his coming in glory."240"
I think the difference is that Catholics stress the necessity of being in full communion with the Church in order to receive communion. If you have an important reason to receive Catholic communion you can ask the diocesan bishop of the parish you'd like to attend Mass at for permission. I'd also like to stress that everyone is welcome at Mass and all are encouraged to make a spiritual communion with Christ even if they cannot receive the sacrament. I often do this myself when I'm not able to receive.
While Catholics are allowed by your Church to receive your communion they are not allowed by the Catholic Church to do so. We do this out of respect both for your church and for ours. While we're happy to worship with you (I regularly attend my wife's Presbyterian church) we are not in full communion with your church so we don't receive your communion. To Catholics receiving communion means accepting all the beliefs of that church; so in a sense we would be lying by receiving other's communion (which is not to say you're lying by so generously offering us your communion, we just have different rules).
I agree that your church is more inclusive. That may make it more ecumenical, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. Many non-Catholics use ecumenism and inclusion almost interchangeably, but that's not how Catholics see it. For Catholics ecumenism means that both sides openly and honestly share their beliefs admitting both how close and how distant they are. In this sense inclusion can sometimes be bad for ecumenism if it denies our differences for the sake of an incomplete sense of unity. I hope that helps, I know you probably don't agree, but that's the best I can put it.
July 18, 2007 7:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 19:36
We sure seem to get caught up in things that are a distraction to say the least. I am a catholic and I cherish my catholic faith, and my job as the New Testament Moses is to tell the whole world that everybody will be in the Kingdom of God or if you prefer the Kingdom of Love, since God is Pure Love. The catholic Eucharist is Jesus by the way, that is what Jesus said at the Last Supper and that is what He meant and also when the Holy Spirit came into my body on 29 Jan 2000, He revealed it to me, thank you Holy Spirit. God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, the only true religion is taking care of widows and orphans, which basically is the whole human race since we are all brothers and sisters. Thank you Dad for Your Plan, thank you Brother for your obedience to The Plan and thank you Knitting Buddy for bringing The Plan to Fruition. By the way the preceding sentence is referring to God the Trinity; Father-Jesus said to think of Him as our Dad, Brother-Jesus by choosing to become a human being and asking permission from Mary, who freely said her Yes, became humanity's Brother as in the entire human race, Knitting Buddy, the Holy Spirit who knits us together in our mother's womb. Jesus won the keys to hell and spiritual death and He will use them in due time. God has never sent anyone to hell because He can't, you have to build it yourself first. People that slice and dice the bible would be better off throwing the whole bible away, Jesus said a lot of things when He was walking on this planet a while back and if you don't know what He was talking about, don't try to mislead others. The whole bible is true and there is probably plenty in there that I don't know what it means but I don't have too, I am just a messenger and the message is: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable; we are in the sixth day, they are God Days by the way, and night is coming, be ready, the dawning of the seventh day will also be here. It seems like a lot of people will be trying to hide behind their religion but God looks at what you do and why you do it and also what you know. God is so so so much nicer than some of the people that call themselves christians think that He is and sad to say, than some want Him to be. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
July 18, 2007 7:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 19:25
Brian,
You said:
"ARMINUIUS, You asked that we correct you if you are wrong and you are wrong.
The Catholic Church believes it is a sin for anyone not in full communion with the Church to receive Holy Communion. It doesn't matter whether that person is Catholic or not. Not even the Pope can receive communion if he's not properly disposed. This has nothing at all to do with ecumenism."
Brian,
With all due respect, I think you have misunderstood what I said.
"Full communion" - I presume (you did not define) that 'properly disposed' means being in step with your church's requirements, as well as having done confession. We Episcopalians have similar requirements: to put ourselves in the right mindset to receive the sacrament, and confess our sins. So where are we with this?
Also - you, as a baptised Christian, can receive the Eucharist at any Anglican church in the world. So far as I know, I cannot do that at any Roman Catholic church anywhere. This means, at least to me, that we are more ecumenical. Or, at least more inclusive, as our Lord would have wished.
Please reply.
July 18, 2007 6:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 18:46
Leper:
What a brilliant response and cleverly argued point you made. Did your parents have any children that survived?
July 18, 2007 6:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 18:32
where is Jesus in this discussion. Christianity is derived from our personal ability to communicate with and consult God whenever we need to in the face of evil. Division such as that mentioned above is evil and is of Satan. Satan wants to divide all Christian communities and look up top, it is working.
Instead of thinking about something theologically witty to put here, remember that Christians are all cleansed of their sins by the blood of Christ and the sacrifice He made for us on the Cross. In that he fulfills the prophecy of the Old Testament and has set us forth as Christians to go forth and carry out the Great Commission.
Up top is not the great commission, instead figuring out how to curb the AIDS epidemic, feed starving black African babies, end global poverty and meet the needs of new believers is our charge. Go do that and don't worry about this. He'll be there one day to judge us all, and remember that if you fall and stumble he has already paid the ultimate price to bear the weight of your sins.
Have a beautiful day,
Regular Christian Guy in brotherhood with all other Christians regardless of denomination, geographical location, race, creed, sex, income level, education level, cultural background, prior transgressions, or appearance.
July 18, 2007 6:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 18:11
he's wrong, no you're wrong, wait no, they're all wrong....
snap out of it and love thy neighbor as thyself.
and drop the rest of the extraneous BS baggage.
July 18, 2007 5:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 17:56
Richard
I agree with you.
Its beyond strange that despite 9/11,people
still see religious belief as somehow virtuous.
The faith of the Muslim martyrs should at least
give us pause to consider the destructive power
of irrational religious belief.
It threatens us all,and is enabled by the respect
we give to the equally preposterous Christian belief,
which was once the scourge of Europe and
the New world,and only since the Enlightenment
has become somewhat benign,but just as irrational
as Islam.
July 18, 2007 5:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 17:52
"Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.
"While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.
"An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it."
Bob Dylan, It's All Right Ma
July 18, 2007 5:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 17:48
Good for me that the Pope's interpretation of my faith means nothing to me and to God.
July 18, 2007 5:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 17:39
Baptism makes you a Christian?? Uh...where's that in the Bible. I thought it was just faith?
July 18, 2007 5:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 17:37
Wouldn't it be nice if most Americans went back to being Deist. Our founding fathers were deist. Many philosophers and intellectuals were deist. Why would anyone care what some old man in a palace in Rome thinks about which religion is the true one. In fact, none of them are. If he believes that the RCC is the true church, so be it. He is entitled to his delusions as are the other priest, pastors, ministers, preachers, imans, ect. We must put logic, reason and mathematics at our forfront. It is what this country was founded on. Enough with this silliness from these so called revealed religions. Giving it creasence can be dangerous over the long term.
July 18, 2007 5:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 17:27
Mike Meyer,
Catholics recognize that anyone baptized with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a Christian. Therefore, Christ is present at your church services and whenever you pray together or do works in His name. What Catholics don't believe, for example, is that the bread and wine at your communion services literally turn into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. But you probably also agree that the bread and wine don't literally become Christ's Flesh and Blood.
Sorry for commenting so much, I'm just trying to help clear up misconceptions.
July 18, 2007 5:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 17:26
what is wrong with that dude ???? (DAS DEUTSCHE HOMOPHOBIC POPE AND EX HITLER YOUTH MOVEMENT MEMBER ) in rome he runs around in full drag each and everyday!! same dude wants to have the holy mass in latin so no one will understand what is going on!! our cardinal here in los angles has to sell the church office buildings so he will be able to settle the lawsuits pertaining to all the young girls and boys that were raped in his churches! oh jesus what a hokus pokus this jesus/god stuff .lets say it loud and clear "RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM AND NOT THE ANSWER" oh jesus mother maria and i used to think that falwell and robertson were trash!
July 18, 2007 5:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 17:22
Anon:**Not Christian sacramental, and in the eyes of Christian belief, the truth of any sacrament involves Jesus Christ.**
So Jesus wouldn't consider us married, because we didn't invite him to the wedding? Sorry, but we didn't invite any other dead people either.
July 18, 2007 5:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 17:05
LEPIDOPTERYX,
I think we just use the language differently. When a Christian says sacramental it's usually implied that they mean it in the Christian way - something which helps us enter into the mystery of Christ. It sounds like your marriage was very sacramental (revealing the mysteries of what you believe in) in the general, non-Christian sense.
July 18, 2007 5:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 17:04
"I can see how you wouldn't consider my marriage Christian, since we aren't, and that's fine with me, but our wedding ritual was most definitely sacramental. There were sacraments from both of our spiritual paths. There was spiritual purifiaction via divine Light, the elements were invoked, sacred vows were exchanged, prayers were chanted, all with appropriate sincerity."
Not Christian sacramental, and in the eyes of Christian belief, the truth of any sacrament involves Jesus Christ.
July 18, 2007 4:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 16:57
Brian:
That's a little clearer, I think. I guess it's a good thing I'm not Catholic. I would have a major problem with having to ask someone else's permission to marry the person I loved in another church in order to have my church recognize the marriage.
And I'm not sure what the difference is between the church recognizing a marriage as valid, but not sacramental.
I can see how you wouldn't consider my marriage Christian, since we aren't, and that's fine with me, but our wedding ritual was most definitely sacramental. There were sacraments from both of our spiritual paths. There was spiritual purifiaction via divine Light, the elements were invoked, sacred vows were exchanged, prayers were chanted, all with appropriate sincerity.
July 18, 2007 4:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 16:52
It is baptism that makes of a person a Christian, and wherever there are the baptized, there is the Church. Benedict's position on the matter is simply incorrect.
July 18, 2007 4:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 16:47
LEPIDOPTERYX,
Your friend's marriage isn't regarded as a valid sacramental marriage by the Catholic Church, because he didn't get the permission of his Bishop to be married outside of Catholic Church. Being Catholic he's bound to do that. For the same reason, two Catholics who get married by a justice of the peace aren't considered sacramentally married. I married my Presbyterian wife in her church, but we got permission and went through the Catholic Church's marriage preparation classes in addition to the meetings with her pastor and it was fine.
Two Protestants who get married obviously aren't bound to get permission from a Catholic Bishop. The Catholic Church considers their marriage to be a valid Christian marriage.
Your marriage to your husband is a valid marriage in the eyes of the Catholic Church, but seeing as how you are not Christian it is not a sacramental Christian marriage. I think you and the Catholic Church would see eye to eye here.
July 18, 2007 4:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 16:34
If you are selling Absolute Truth then contradictory ideas are problematic to your enterprise.
Therefore, if I were the Pope relativism would be at the top of my list of dislikes. Getting along with other religious groups is fine, but I'd be trying to tamp down any substancial sharing of ideas toward a greater ecumenicalism. It'd be bad for my business.
July 18, 2007 4:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 18, 2007 16:28
As an atheist i am always pleased to see squabbling
amongst the different religions.
I would be alarmed if they all agreed
with each other.
The fact that they can never agree,tells the rest of us that there is no
one true religion;thus they are all false.
Mark Twain again..."The quiet confidence with
which I know another man's religion to be folly,
makes me suspect that mine is also".