All Comments (90)

Ransom:
How is the weather on Perelandra?

Wow...All I really want to know is about that Eclati crap...what is that guy smoking?? Hey for the rest of ya'll seriously, do ya'll even think of all the energy it takes to keep walking around & around in this revolving door argument..The Mormons on here will scream "we are the best at following" the rest will scream "we are the best at listening" All I want to know is how all this energy in pointing to the 'others' as wrong really accomplishes anything other than making all who search for Christ the Messiah :(turned off:(???

but for what it is worth without all ya'll bickering amongst yourselves I would be rather bored at work, so I say THANK YOU for keeping me entertained..Peace be With you All!!!
-ransom-

Eyeswideopen - thank you.

Religion the first WMD!

Go follow what ever religion want (you will still be buying into some dudes tales, therefore you are and always will be a "follower")

Oh and for the idiot that said mormons have changed over time............every religion has! If they didn't they would go out of Bis!

To those confused about baptism for the dead:

1) The Bible states that all must people must be baptized in order to return to the presence of God.

2) The vast majority of persons who have lived on the earth have never heard of Christ or had the opportunity for baptism.

3) Baptism for the dead allows these people an opportunity to accept the gospel and the Savior.

4) The deceased person must accept the ordinance for it to be valid. No one can be "forced" to accept a baptism that they do not wish to accept.

5) God does not send unbaptized babies and children to hell. Little children are perfect and without sin before him. They need no baptism of any kind.

Ryan -

You said "...not because we have to, but because we get to and can do nothing else."

I think a lot of people on here would agree that there have been many people who have at one time said they accepted Jesus as their Saviour and have gone on to do some pretty horrible things. Are they saved? Let me guess no they never were?

See my post above. We are saved by God's Grace alone but our response must include good works, not just a singular act of faith.

Scott your treatment of James 2:14-26 is off. Look at the Greek and the context to which James is writing (those who think they are Christians but not) and you will see that he is not saying works factor into our salvation, but that a good tree will always bear good fruit. Not that the fruit makes the tree good but that a good tree can not help but bear good fruit. Read Paul in Rom. 3:28 we are saved by faith. And by that faith and being made into a new creation we do good works, not because we have to, but because we get to and can do nothing else.

More for Canyon:
Matthew 7:21 (King James Version)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

From a Christian perspective, when Jesus returns, I would bet that many excellent human beings, who have striven to follow God in the best way they knew how, will find that they recognize Jesus when they see him because they have become like him. The rest of us who have spent our lives bickering may find ourselves to be strangers.

...and I think it's harsh on "mainstream Judeo/Christians" to say that they consider Islam or Buddhism a cult. I don't think they're quite that close-minded.

Sorry WOW!!, I have to disagree with you on this one. Islam, Buddhism, even Pentecostalism are pretty mainstream in my book. Astrology, uh... less so. New Agers... well... As for Hmong, I thought it was an ethnic group rather than a religion. I think he was just trying to say "Our neighbourhoods have become very diverse." I don't read anything more than that into it. Maybe I'm wrong, but if he's pursuing some kind of exclusionary strategy it's a darn subtle one, and exclusionists aren't known for their subtlety generally.

Eyeswideopen,
Thank you for responding to my comment. For repayment of your kindness, allow me to argue with you.
Why didn't he put more "mainstream" religions in this list? Why didn't he put Catholicism in here? Is he Catholic? Why didn't Mr. Marty put Methodists in this list? Is he Methodist?
What he did was start the list with "New Agers" and then listed other religions or denominations that mainstream Judeo/Christian would call "cults".
I feel that he is stating the rhetoric of his denomination.

KATAKAHA: The supernatural being Canyon, all three great faiths believe in is Devil. Faith is all Devil requires to get ya into his heaven, BKA hell.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul but don't expect to get much for it, unless of course you're a minister. The big bucks go to those who lead the multitudes to hell. The faithful pay the Devil's fee to his ministers. Moses was the ogiginal seller of soul and reaped the greatest reward possible, king (absolute dictator) of the Israelites, the chosen people of ______.

Are Mormons, Christians, Muslims, Jews, anyone who faiths the being that "lives in fire" likely to get into God's heaven?

Canyon -

I am sorry but your understanding of why religions say we are not saved by faith alone is way off base. I can't speak for everyone but here is a Catholic explination.

The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works...that we can “work” our way into Heaven.

Second, show me where in the Bible does it teach that we are saved by “faith alone.” You can’t, because it doesn’t. The only place in all of Scripture where the phrase “Faith Alone” appears, is in James...James 2:24, where it says that we are not...not...justified (or saved) by faith alone.

So, one of the two main pillars of Protestantism...the doctrine of salvation by faith alone...not only doesn’t appear in the Bible, but the Bible actually says the exact opposite - that we are not saved by faith alone

Third, if works have nothing to do with our salvation...then how come every passage in the N.T. that I know of that talks about judgment says we will be judged by our works, not by whether or not we have faith alone? We see this in Rom 2, Matthew 15 and 16, 1 Ptr 1, Rev 20 and 22, 2 Cor 5, and many, many more verses.

Fourth, if we are saved by faith alone, why does 1 Cor 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

As Catholics we believe that we are saved by God’s grace alone. We can do nothing, apart from God’s grace, to receive the free gift of salvation. We also believe, however, that we have to respond to God’s grace. Protestants believe that, too. However, many Protestants believe that the only response necessary is an act of faith; whereas, Catholics believe a response of faith and works is necessary...or, as the Bible puts it in Galatians 5:6, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love...faith working through love...just as the Church teaches.

But Canyon Shearer, you are using faith vs. works as a kind of shiboleth. You are making a distinction without a difference. Most of Christianity vehemently disagrees with your approach. A profession of faith is not a magic phrase that gets you into heaven regardless of what you are or do. It is true faith that is required in Christianity, and if that faith does not produce good actions, it can hardly be called true (if you've read your Luther). And good works increase the faith of the believer as they bring her closer to the Lord. I don't know of any Christians knowledgable in their faith who believe anymore that there is some finite amount of good actions or righteousness that can buy a spot in Heaven. That was the heresy that allowed the selling of indulgences. All Christians, including Mormon Christians, believe that salvation comes through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Your analysis is as poor as your condemnation is quick. The Bible is full of passages such as the following:

James 2:14-26 (New American Standard Bible)
Faith and Works
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. "You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Matthew 16:24-27 KJV
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 25:31-46 NASB
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Many Christians these days, including Mormons, reject the idea that God would send to a flaming and eternal hell all those who did not have faith in Jesus, even those who never heard of him. Mormons deal with this problem explicitly (as do the Catholics in their own way) with their doctrine of continued teaching during the time between death and resurrection. If you want to condemn Mormons and Catholics for believing that God is just, and that he would not condemn people who never had a decent chance of accepting him, go right ahead. I think they would consider it an honor to be condemned by you on that basis. Is God so narcissistic that anyone who speaks his name he will save while all who don't will be damned? Surely Christianity is more than a magic word cult, a parody of gnosticism.

Uh, dude, you have it wrong. He is saying that in today's society everyone from kooky cultish believers to adherents of mainstream religions (like buddhism or islam) live in our communities. He's assuming we understand their differentiation, not lumping them together.

"Today, with the growth of American pluralism, when everyone from New Agers to Hmong to Astrologers to Muslims to Pentecostals to Buddhists live "down the block," Mormons benefit from the protective coloration which such wild diversity promotes."

I think that Newsweek should make the people they use for these stories state their religious denomination.
Mr. Marty is obviously not a Muslim or Buddhist or Pentecostal or a member of any other denomination he listed here. But what he has done, or attempted to do is to make all of these (including Mormonism) seem like cults.
Mr. Marty is using this opportunity provided by Newsweek to "color" or "brainwash" the readers of this article. He is speaking his denominations rhetoric.
Why didn't he include Baptists? This is a younger religious belief than Muslims. Why didn't he include Lutherans in this list?
I at first believed that these articles would encourage communication among those who follow a higher calling and those that follow an internal calling. However, I see that I am wrong on this point. Why are people attacking each other's beliefs in the comments posted? It is what Newsweek is truly trying to accomplish. Their "highly important" guest writers start this attacking ball rolling.

Isn't the problem that "mainstream" christians have with Mormons based on the obvious fact, which few people mention because of the whiff of bigotry, that Joseph Smith was obviously a total charlatan, who you'd do badly to buy a car from let alone a theology? That the religion has changed course on everything from multiple marriage to acceptance of blacks based on dubious but well-timed "revelations" that essentially say "uh... forget what we were doing for the last 20 years... I've had a revelation that if we don't accept blacks or stop marrying a half-dozen 14-year-old girls the feds are going to shut us down" (that last part doesn't usually get included)? So the religion fosters kooky splinter groups, who are all united in the understanding that you can't tack a boat that often without losing some deckhands.

If you've kept reading to here, I appreciate it. I am, although it is belied by what I've said thus far, a tremendously open-minded person, which has led me to accept god but look upon all religions as socio/anthropological phenomenons rather than anything resembling paths to whatever. But I have read every major holy book I could get my hands on, from the bible (umpteen times) to the koran, to the upanishads... you name it. In each book I found nuggets of interesting wisdom and much outdated sociological commentary. But only when I pursued the effort to include the book of mormon did I get a tenth of the way through, put the book down, and say "omigod what a complete load of bunkus!"

Every holy book I've read has led me to understand how they can serve as the foundation for a major religion. But the book of mormon? You gotta be kidding me. I confronted a mormon friend of mine with that, and she replied that every holy book, read to the letter, contains much that beggars the imagination. That may be true, but what I'm willing to accept as the limitations of knowledge in a book compiled of stories that date back to the dawn of written language I'm not willing to accept in a book written in the mid-19th century.

Mormons, my apologies for the rant but unless the church is able to face these perceptions, which are truly at the root of any acceptance challenges you face, then it will be a fruitless effort. The only acceptance mormons find is in their scrubbed-clean lifestyle and social values: they're okay to have as neighbours in a good suburb. But everyone, to a man (or woman), who is not mormon but is exposed to the most basic precepts of the religion think it's laughable. The uphill challenge of acceptance is not based on bigotry or persecution, as mormons would like to believe: it's based on a slack-jawed disbelief that anyone smart enough to be a doctor, lawyer, or presidential candidate (although the threshold of that last one has been lowered of late) would be crazy enough to believe the cart-load of bunkum that is the mormon theology. And no U of Chicago pointy-head is going to admit that in print, but it's god's truth!

Cheerio!

HUNDREDS OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESS LAWSUITS & COURT CASES SUMMARIZED


The following website summarizes 300 U.S. court cases and lawsuits affecting children of Jehovah's Witness Parents, including dozens of cases where the JWParents refused to consent to life-saving blood transfusions:

DIVORCE, BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS, AND OTHER LEGAL ISSUES AFFECTING CHILDREN OF JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

http://jwdivorces.bravehost.com/



This website summarizes 160 United States court cases and lawsuits filed by Jehovah's Witnesses against Employers:

EMPLOYMENT ISSUES UNIQUE TO JEHOVAH'S WITNESS EMPLOYEES

http://jwemployees.bravehost.com

Hey, folks.

Wow, quite a bit of riled up people here. Too bad most of them aren't actually responding to Dr. Marty's comments, which were helpful and true if somewhat generic and innocuous. Certainly he knows better than to engage in public discourse in a polemical manner, such as is evident in most of the posts here. ah well... eventually we will all be Rush Limbaughs, Sean Hannitys, Al Frankens, and Bill O'Reillys. There will be no Martin Martys left. Our public discourse will be full of vitriol and unreasoned blubbering, with no space left for mutual respect, listening, and principled disagreement.

That being said... people are people. Mormons and evangelical Christians and Muslims and Jews and atheists. People are people, in that we are all flawed and we all screw up and sometimes we manage to get things right. Sure, Mormons are fine folks, but they aren't by nature or by nurture any better than anyone else. Now, in terms of their theology... can we agree that it is very different? Every faith group attempts to distinguish itself from the rest, tries to explain how it is different, how it has something new, and inherently better, to offer. Otherwise, why would they exist? Some go farther afield than others in their "differentness"--for instance, Christians have the entire New Testament. Islam has the Koran, which explicitly rejects Christianity. The LDS has the Book of Mormon, marking it as an extremely different and innovative faith, regardless of the arguable degree of continuity between the Bible and the BOM. That doesn't make it bad or wrong. But it certainly does make it non-Christian, just as orthodox Christianity is non-Jewish, but draws upon Jewish religious, cultural, historical, and scriptural foundations.

What marked early Mormon history was the rejection, oppression, and alienation of Mormons through hatred and religious violence by mainstream Americans. In turn, the Mormons embraced their isolation and alienation, turning it into a strong insularity and sense of community, sense of autonomy. They also, for better or worse, embraced the use of violence as a defense against those who had formerly persecuted them. What is most remarkable about 20th and 21st century Mormonism is its almost-overwhelming desire for religious and civil acceptance, for being welcomed into the American and Christian mainstream. The LDS has done everything possible to persuade others that Mormons are religiously and culturally "normal" and "safe." Just reading these posts is a testament to the depth of this desire for acceptance among Mormons. Sure, sure, we all want to be accepted and not looked at with suspicion. But this marks a tremendous turnaround from earlier attitudes and experience of Mormons, and so is worth noting.

This is understandable, but rings a bit hollow in just one respect. Mormons really are not Christians in a Biblical or theological sense. And that's okay! There's nothing wrong with that, at least from my perspective! But "gaining entrance" into orthodox Christianity is not something that can be demanded or can be manipulated or depends on public opinion like gaining acceptance into the American cultural, economic, and political mainstream. Being part of orthodox Christianity doesn't depend on what others think of you, be it good or ill--it depends on what you claim to believe, and whether that sits within or without the historic and ongoing confessions of the Christian faith. Mormon theology, Mormon beliefs, Mormon practices are certainly fine and acceptable within this religiously pluralistic society we have in the United States. But it is important for Mormons, and any group at all, not to let their desire for "acceptance" lead them into denying their own faith claims, their distinctive religious identity, or into minimizing their distinctiveness in a deliberate and misleading way. Better to be proud and honest about who you are and what you believe, in its distinctiveness. Let others hear you and judge for themselves what label or another to place on you. The only thing that matters is that you know who you are and what you believe, and that you be honest about that to yourself and others.

Anon:

I never said the Mormons came in for a drink of alchohol or anything like that. They are allowed water aren't they? Get a clue before you chastize me brother.

Canyon,

Sounds like it's gonna be a good night out, if we could ever get Marco to pony up the dough.

Personally, I am not gonan vote for a republican, whether he's a mormon or a christian. My politics are a bit too liberal, and I'd like to think there is a better option out there. I doubt I'd vote for Hillary, well....she's more flip-flopped than Kerry ever was. Guliani........naw, so he helped to rebuild New York after 9/11......... that's his biggest jump on point right there.
I'd probably lean more towards Obama. And NOT because Oprah Winfrey says so.

But hey, who you pick is up to you. It just gets my nads seeing people vote for a guy because of what religion he is. My wife's sister and her friend voted for G.W. not because they new the issues, but because he believed in God, and was a strong christian. Not the best kind of reasoning, and that ticks me off.
Vote for the person that will do the best job. Vote for the guy or girl that isn't gonna embarass the country if and when he or she is re-elected.

If I could, I'd run, but none of the lobbysits would like me. I'd boot em all out of Washington. But I do think the USA needs a Bald president(by choice). That way, you can see me sweat when the questions are too hard. Then you'll know whether or not I was telling the truth.

And I'd have an open bar at my iduction. Vote for Russell D. anyone?

I just have to say, after reading most of these posts...don't any of you have anything better to do than to blast one another for your beliefs?

Seriously - I grew up Evangelical (lost most of the faith) - but what ever happened to just being a good person?!? I think it's SUPER close-minded to believe that in order to get into Heaven or Shangrila - or wherever - that you MUST believe this...or that...or this.

Can't we just get along and accept one another? I highly doubt Jesus/God would want everyone to be so judgemental.

Question - Who said "Surely, I come quickly".

Answer - Some poor bloke who was suffering from premature ejaculation.

There is one glaring, irreconcilable difference between Mormonism and true Christianity.

To repeat the most important verse in the Bible, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

Mormons do not believe this verse. I once asked a Mormon what he thought of the verse, "By grace are ye saved through faith, accompanied by works; this is the gift of God, so that the righteous may boast." He looked at me and said, "Yeah, that's right." Then I opened my Bible and he got really mad. Ephesians 2:8-9 destroys the Mormon faith...but like all christianists, they don't read their Bibles for what the Bible says, but rather what they want the Bible to say.

If I spin it right, I can make the Bible say, "Canyon Shearer is God." It doesn't even take much rearranging of letters...just a snippet from Canaan and a Y from Yawhweh...Shearer is mentioned with shepards...no problem, must be true.

That is called Eisegesis; reading the Bible to say what you want it to say.

The Bible is the least ambiguous of ANY religious book, it says what it means. When you read the Bible to see what it actually says, this is called Exogesis...there is NO doubt whatsoever when you read the Bible for what it says. By grace are ye saved through faith, not of works.

But then we have the problem of your eisegesis understanding of James. It really takes some amazing contortion and malicious reading to make James say anything along the lines of Mormonism.

Imagine a jet engine...we'll call this engine you. In order for a jet engine to work, it must have kerosene, we'll call kerosene faith. A jet engine without kerosene is dead. A jet engine with kerosene produces thrust, thrust is works. A jet engine that has kerosene but doesn't produce thrust is worthless. The works are a product of faith, not a prerequisite. If we see a jet engine working, we can only assume that kerosene is inside. But a jet engine is not the only source of thrust; there are lots of ways to produce thrust...not all of them are based in kerosene. (On second thought, this analogy might not be good for a one-path sermon...but the point of works being evidence of faith stands.)

I think John MacArthur put it well, "James describes spurious faith as pure hypocrisy, mere cognitive assent, devoid of any verifying works-no different from the demons' belief. Obviously, there is more to saving faith than merely conceding a set of facts."

So what about the works of Mormons? The part that Mormons miss the point on the most is that Mormonism is a works-based religion; just as Islam, just as Jehovah's Witnesses, just as Catholicism, just as many, many more. There is no difference between Mormonism and any other religion, yet somehow they think there is. The Bible says that our works are as filthy rags.

Imagine we are standing before a judge. There are TEN definite evidences of our guilt, we are criminals, no denying it, the punishment for our crime is death. The judge is about to pass judgement and we suddenly have the bright idea to bring up our works. "Judge!" we scream, "Judge! I have walked door to door and told people about you and how you are from Mars and love all men, I have helped little old ladies across the street, donated 10% of my money to an organization you endorse, and I even washed and waxed your car before the trial."

The judge says, "That's all fine, you should do good things, but the fact is that you've broken a very serious law and no amount of good works have any bearing on your innocence or guilt." Your sentence is death...no matter how many works you have done, because they have absolutely no bearing on your guilt, innocence, or salvation.

Along other lines, sometimes I don't know where to start with such an easy target as Mormonism; definitely the easiest place is the ridiculous and almost completely failed prophecies of it's cult founder:
http://www.exmormon.org/prophet.htm

I am so glad to see all of the responses, I had briefly worried that my two-edged sword had dulled and lost it's effectiveness. Whoa me of little faith.

I don't know where to start with a reply, so I'll start with someone I recognize.

Russell, it is nice to see you once again. Indeed Marco Polo owes us the first round, I'll get the second.

I agree completely with you that different faiths can co-exist and create for a wonderful and eclectic country.

I'd love to throw out another analogy here. Imagine we're all peddlers traveling on a train together, traveling Eastward from Los Angeles, we're hoping to visit Edinburgh, in the United Kingdom. We are having a great time, we finally get to enjoy that beer together in the bar car, and the conversations are profound to no end. Up to Goose Bay, Canada we've been freeloading; but as you know, a train can't get from the North American continent to Caledonia. Along the way some of our friends get off the train; some early in Las Vegas, others late in Chicago, and some depart just prior to us reaching Goose Bay. In order to reach Edinburgh we need to board an airplane; but remember, we have no money because we're freeloaders; not only are we freeloaders, but we were born with an incredible inheritance from our Father; but in our youth we've squandered it.

Now the punchline, our Father, who knows we squandered our entire inheritance and sullied the family name, is the one that wants us in Scotland; He loves us very much, but there is a matter of thousands of miles of iceberg ridden Atlantic Ocean. The airplane ticket is ridiculously expensive, there is no way we can expect to purchase it. When we find out that the ticket has been purchased for us, we are allowed to board the airplane.

When we get off of the airplane in Edinburgh, there is our Father, and we are ecstatic to see him. You recount the story, "I don't know how I got here, I couldn't pay for the ticket." And He tells you, through tears, "I sold everything I owned, and I had to sell myself into indentured service to pay your ticket, but I am so happy to see you!" You break down and cry for forgiveness at wasting so much that now you are both paupers. Your Father forgives you all, you are reconciled together.

This is why it is so important that you receive that plane ticket, there is no other way to come Home. I am very much enjoying our journey together on the train of life, but I am terrified that you won't be on the airplane.

But now is the incredibleness...besides being forgiven and redeemed...our Father, after giving up EVERYTHING He owned, even unto death for your sake, He rose from the grave and rose to power to be the ruler of the whole world, and His righteousness is once again yours...if you'll receive that airplane ticket.

Russell, there is much for us to do on this train of life, but I'm warning you, from foreknowledge as well as limited-experience, that this train doesn't...nay, can't...go all the way, and our Father is the only one that can get us Home.

Thank you Rich Whitaker.
Amen.

If someone is worried about being baptised after they die, why would it matter? If baptism for the dead isn't of God then it won't matter so what's the worry? Because it is a true ordance that we all must perform, either living or vicariously for us.

I just got done reading through all the postings here, and frankly, I'm amazed!
I don't know why I should be, though. There's never been a shortage of people who think they know all about me, and don't.
I was born into the Church; grew up in it. Stuck with it for all these years. Still, didn't know half the stuff I needed to, I guess.
Married a Catholic once. After 25 years, his church still says we're living in sin. Not mine; never mine.
Our kids are going to hell. Never been baptized, you see. Always figured that was their choice. Now, from reading above, I find I should have forced them to join my church because apparently, that's what the LDS do.
Grew up in Gary, IN. Didn't realize, growing up there, that I was supposed to be prejudiced. I'm glad someone told me; supposed it's too late to teach my kids to be bigots, though, isn't it? That's me--always too late. Comes from that MST, I guess.
Most of my friends and shucks, none of my family are members of the Church. What does that make me? Sorry--don't believe non members are all going to hell. That's too close minded to even consider. But since I'm LDS, I'm supposed to be that close minded, aren't I?
Been to the Temple. Did baptism for the dead. First time at 14. I knew, even then, that it was a choice, and nothing was forced on anyone. And I was a kid.
Even now, when people I've known for years find out I'm LDS, they ask how many husbands I have. I tell them I have at least three more, and I rotate them out of the closet when I'm looking for a bigger paycheck.
This has all been very educational, but you know what? I'm happy the way I am. I teach through example, and I don't force anything on anyone.
At least I didn't think I did. So glad someone else enlightened me. And you know what? I think they ARE afraid of us.
How can so many people be so ignorant, yet so self righteous that they feel this comfortable with condemning their fellow man? (Or woman)

Raymond makes an excellent point. Mormons are very well schooled in their own dogma as well as that of others; if for no other reason than as a defense mechanism. He's right, they don't overtly attack evangelicals and they are often accosted by others of different faiths; who demand that they stop their practice and acquiesce to a more mainstream belief. The act of denying or forbidding any group their own freedom to worship as they see fit goes against the very singular founding principle of this great nation. That being said, Mormons should be left alone. Left alone in Utah; a previously desolate state and greater region that was populated and tamed by Mormons because they could not accept nor be accepted by already established communities from Illinois to Missouri; leaving them to inhabit the dead spider infested shores of an evaporating inland sea.

Mormon lore makes the journey west and subsequent habitation of the region sound like Moses and the children of Israel fleeing the bondage of the pharaoh with hand carts. But what is missing more and more each time the story is told is the pain and suffering their exodus wrought on the people and communities they affected en route. Mass movement of Mormon settlers bringing communal, self-serving economic monopolization to communities lead to often violent strife; strife that fired a Mormon philosophy of “Blood Atonement” in which organized Mormon militias burned and decimated without mercy the communities that wronged or attacked them in ten-fold fashion. Even after settling in Utah, Mormons continued to make others pay for alleged trespasses against them and their land as they massacred non-believing settlers (Fancher-Baker Party of the Mountain Meadows Massacre) as they passed through their “promised valley”. Yes, seasoned members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) have reason to study their scriptures and counsel one another. If they are to defend their own past actions as well bazaar spirituality, they need to get their stories straight.

Having lived amongst them, my family and I watched daily the bizarre dichotomy that is Mormon community life. To get to the highest level of heaven Mormons must prove themselves to their church leaders that they are worthy to enter the temple and take part in the secretive rituals that ensure their superiority over all others; superiority that will lead to their exultation as Gods themselves. Frankly the fact that they baptize, “en abstentia”, the dead, who are already destined to be judged by whatever deity others may worship, or permit temple workers to anoint, with hand and oil, the genitalia of wedding couples or share secret hand shakes and then threaten death to those who would divulge the sanctity of their dark secrets is their own business. It did however become my voyeuristic business as I watched my neighbors hide from their fellow worshiping neighbors, which was the rest of the entire community, their actual or possibly perceived transgressions that would keep them out of marbled halls of the temple. It is, after all, every good member’s first duty to defend the threshold of the temple against those not worthy to pass. It’s no wonder that Utah leads the nation in anti-depressant prescription medicines. Knowing that my neighbor was looking and had the power to report me to God and condemn me for all eternity would depress me too.

Mormon family life is often viewed as the acceptable ends that justify the means of the faith. After all, their towns are clean, communities are conservative, crime rates are low by anyone’s standard, and at first glance everyone is unbelievably friendly. The church “preaches” acceptance and opens arms to all faiths. However, neither I nor anyone who I’ve met who’s lived intimately in their midst have witnessed this acceptance once it’s made clear that they’re not bringing us into the flock. I watched LDS children tell other children that their parents told them they couldn’t play with them because they didn’t go to their church. My very professionally qualified wife, coincidentally, did not receive a second job interview until she tucked her cross necklace into her blouse. The one LDS neighbor who did show caring acceptance by disregarding our non-believing ways and befriending my wife while I was deployed to Iraq faced ostracism by the rest of the community for what sins she might have been committing behind closed doors with my wife. The sectarianism found in Mormon communities is identical to that which I found in Iraq. I have no doubt that if social mores permitted, my neighbors would have literally stoned me in the street for drinking a beer, smoking a cigar, or cutting my grass on a Sunday. This behavior was not isolated to our neighbors in “Happy Valley”. As my wife worked in Salt Lake City, she found that her closest “friend” there turned on her and ended their relationship when she was offered the “calling” to lead her church’s women’s circle. Their trips to Wendover, Nevada to play the slots were over because of the increased scrutiny she’d be under because of her new ecclesiastically endearing position. Community economic monopolization continues today. I would encourage the federal government to look into the business practices of, say, agricultural suppliers in both Utah and Idaho. I guess it’s not alright to deny home loans to minorities but it’s okay to deny farm equipment sales and/or financing outside of one’s own faith. I would say let the states investigate it, but look at the make up of all three branches of the states’ governments and determine for yourself if the fox is guarding the hen house.

I could go on with the cover-ups on the complete dominance of the church over all social and political aspects of community life in the state of Utah and southern Idaho, the fact that no other religion in the state has purchased islands of land on public school property or bought and restricted access to Main Street in the largest city in the state, the hypocrisy of a faith that compares its suffering to the Jews in the holocaust, the denial of large underground homosexual populations and backlash hyper-deviant sexual practices, or unbelievably high teenage pregnancy rates. But some highly educated Elder (ironically only 22 years old) fresh off his “mission” will just shoot each one down with the same adeptness that his apologetic quorum leaders address the past. Or, in defeat, he’ll offer his prayers that I might someday find my own way. I could and would appreciate that. I myself pray that everyone, in their own fashion, find their own way. Whatever path we choose, we choose it ourselves, alone. And that’s just what we should do with the Mormons. Leave them alone.

Obviosly Greg does not know his mormon history... they all did recant.. takes a little research.. of go to the Times and seasons blog and read another mormons research on it...
as to people saying what is the Jews problem with baptism for the dead? How would mormons feel if the church of satan baptised their dead realtives?
thats what I thought.

Thanks for the response. My pastor's car is a Saturn he bought used a couple years ago.

What can I say about being mormon? It always seemed weird even when I joined the church at 16. I was depressed at the time and the missionaries made everything sound so wonderful. I mean, hey, they have an explanation for why there are so many faiths (the great apostasy)and even Joseph Smith, sure I buy that. I never really 'felt the spirit' when I prayed but being around people that seemed to genuinely care about you? I felt great! So I was baptized.

About a year later, the newness wore off and I began to understand why everyone is so antagonistic to the LDS church. A lot of the teachings...really do not make sense. I'm talking about common sense.

Much of what I agree with isn't necessarily the biblical part but the social teachings. Such as how teenagers are taught to date ONLY in groups. They should "never lie next to a member of the opposite sex" until marriage or even french kiss. And girls are not allowed to become a missionary until they are 21 (boys can become one at 18) because they are supposed to get married and have children. What about college? What about getting some life experience? Well, did you know the divorce rate among LDS families is higher than non LDS? Some family bond. Or drinking Coke? Sure it's caffeine and maybe one shouldn't be downing 7 a day but....is that so bad?

The final straw for me involved a friend of mine. A woman that truly loved LDS and believed in everything whole-heartedly found herself in a sexual identity crisis. She became a lesbian. And her mormon bishop (spiritual leader) told her that it was "more natural for a human to want to have sex with a goat than to desire to have intercourse with someone of the same sex." I just don't think God rolls that way. I mean really, it's okay for me and a cow to get together but not me and sheila?

I believe in faith and God and Jesus. I believe that they want the best for us and they want us to be happy. We still need to make the right decisions and honor ourselves, but...does God really care if I wear special clothes? or pay LDS 10% of my earnings? What if I wore clothes that made me feel special and donated money to charities that I designated? Would He love me less? Does he love my friend less because she's dating Sarah not Jimmy? I think he has more important things to worry about that the Coke I'm sipping right now or that I'm unmarried with no kids at the ripe old age of 23.

I think the idea of good works that is taught in Mormonism is commendable. So are a lot of the biblical teachings but all this social drama is unnecessary. I mean no shorts allowed? Womens and mans roles only? My friend really wanted to be a bishop. But that's only for men. She'll have to settle as a sunday school teacher. Just silly.

I'm not saying that LDS is a bad religion, just that some of the things taught to members...just don't make for good common sense. And that's what I think God is all about. As long as one finds faith and spirituality for themselves, He'll be happy...and love you (but no shorts or Coke).

Hey Keith....I will attempt to answer your questions.

1. If what you mean by "faith in the claims of Joseph Smith to be a Mormon" means that believing in the teachings of Brother Joseph, then yes, in order to be a Mormon you must have faith in his teachings. But please be very aware, Mormons believe and have faith in Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith taught about Jesus. Everything he did and the Church does is in the name of the Savior. I have provided a copy of the Articles of Faith (@ the end of this post) for you to read. These are 13 points that summarize the Mormon beliefs.

2. The leaders of the Church are men serving like in any position within any other church or organization. We believe they have been called by God to serve. Please note that the leadership of the Church are serving in a lay ministry. They are not paid for their services but do it for the service of God. Please compare that to other religions. How nice is your pastor's car? (please do not take offense to that...it is only a point)

3. As far as the doctrine of becoming gods....if God is our Heavenly Father, and we are his literal spirit offspring, then if we are found worthy, through the Grace of Christ to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, the Father said we would inherit all that he had. Is this not found in the Bible? I believe we can find references regarding this type of blessing throughout the scriptures. If we are His children, we can become like Him. That is not say we will be promoted above Him or even to his exact status, but like Him in that we will have no end and dwell in Heaven. We do believe families can be Eternal and that we ALL, are a part of an eternal family. Yes Keith...even you are my brother.

God Bless you sir!
SM

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

Thanks to all who have made an effort at sharing their ideas and beliefs. My own gut responses to the various opinions and personal anecdotes are telling--some of you I would like to meet while others have left me feeling uncomfortable and distanced. I consider myself to be a Mormon, true-blue, through and through, yet I feel most comfortable with those whose approach to their faith, whether Mormon or not, would result in arms open wide, long friendly chats, and more belonging than exclusion. While I hold my faith dear, being "right" almost always seems less important than understanding others' experience and working toward being understood in my own. As a 40-year old Mormon living in rural southern Indiana, I hope I can "share the Gospel" in a way that results in simply enjoying the blessings of the Gospel with others - regardless of their faith. Thanks again for sharing (and reading).

As a Presbyterian (USA) who is a Democrat, I've felt judged by the religious right to be hell-bound. I share that much with LDSers, with whom I've been friends, played sports, etc.

This is unfair overgeneralization for many LDSers, I'm sure, but in a way, I believe the protestant right wing evangelicals and the right wing LDSers deserve each other as bunkmates, insofar as they manifest their faith and values by supporting conservative political causes. Their support of Iraq-tied-to-Al-Qaeda lying, Mammon-worshipping, torturing, oppressive-regime-supporting, the-poor-and-imprisoned-neglecting, gun-loving, environment-be-damned-exploiting-and-polluting, global-warming-loving, intolerance-promoting, people-of-color-race-baiting politicians puts them in the same boat as far as I'm concerned. They're so focused on achieving stylized and selective personal righteousness, that they've completely lost their bearings and stopped listening to God and Jesus about what we are supposed to do in this world. I've got a log in my own eye, but folks, you've got a lot of explaining to do to God. Y'all should read Matthew 25:31-46 and quake in your spiritual boots. You're in danger, big danger, but most of you will keep smilin', I'm guessing. I hope not.

You have NO IDEA what Mormonism is like until you live in THEIR communities. After living in Logan, utah for the last 11 years, I am BEGINNING to understand what it must of been like for an African-American to live in Mississippi in the 1950's.

I would like to appologize to J.D. also, I am not appologizing about the church just the actions of some over zealous members. Three out of my 5 best friends as a child through high school were not members. They attended my birthday parties and I theirs. My parents never forbade me from associating with non-members. I have had the opportunity to live in Argentina for 2 years on a church mission and made many friends of other faiths. Diversity is good and I feel bad that some members who have not lived outside the state will deny their children to have friends of other faiths that they are diminished some how. Someday they may move outside of the state and may not be able to cope with the change from majority religion to a minor religion.

I have never read the Book of Mormom and know little about the Mormon faith.
As a Christian, I have a couple concerns:
1. If I understand correctly, a person has to have faith in the claims of Joseph Smith in order to be a Mormon. While I certainly trust or even have faith in a handful of people, I would not trust my salvation to any human being. If Joseph Smith lied, then all who follow his 'revelations' have been deceived.
2. Doesn't the Mormon church heirarchy have authority over eveeything and everyone in the church? If so, doesn't that supercede God's authority?
3. Doesn't the Mormon faith believe that Mormons can become gods? If so, how is this anything but contradictory to the Bible, which teaches that we are God's children by adoption but that we will never become gods or like God Himself?

I am shocked that many of you call yourselves "Christians" or "Religious" individuals. I have spent a great deal of time this week listening to broadcasts from Calvary Chapel and other "Christian" networks and cannot find any comfort, faith, or knowledge from sermons given by your "Christian" leaders. The common thread throughout all the broadcasts is "If you pray.....you will be healed, saved, or find salvation".

Do not get me wrong, I believe in the power of prayer and that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior. I believe that only through Him and His grace can I hope to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, however, I hear these men preaching these truths but do not feel their love for mankind. I hear far too often how other religions, such as Mormonism, Catholicism, and Islam are wrong. I do not believe in the doctrines of most religions on the earth but I also do not criticize them for the good they do and are trying to do. Mormonism is about making bad men good and good men better. Mormonism is about creating families that can support each other while reaching out to their neighbor, regardless of race, religion or political background, and offer friendship, support and service.

Come on CHRISTIAN BROTHERS....stop the back biting and hating and move on! I believe that many "Christians", Catholics, Muslims, and other non-religious people will have the opportunity to enter Heaven....and the reason for this belief is through the power of Christ, his Atonement, and the Eternal nature of God. If God is our Heavenly Father, then He would want His children to return to His presence. The Atonement of Christ is far greater than any "Christian" preacher or person can comprehend and shame on any of us for limiting its POWER.

I am a Mormon, I am proud of this and would love to have PEACE AMONG religions.

Quit your judging and WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING and let the Mormons be.

SM

what you believe is not important. what is important is that you are a good american and we give you the right to believe as you want, as long as you dont demand that others bow to you or your religion.

Seriously, who are you people? Have any of you ever read the Book of Mormon? How is that you all think you are experts on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and our doctrinal beliefs? From the comments I have read none of you knows much of anything about the LDS church and our beliefs. First of all, we believe in God the Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that Jesus Christ came to earth, was born of Mary, atoned for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane and was crucified and then was resurrected and rose again on the third day to show himself to his disciples so that they would know that he has overcome death. Everthing in our belief system revolves around these basic tenets. We do not worship Joseph Smith. We do not worship Mormon or Moroni. We believe that they were prophets on the American continent at the same time that there were prophets in the Middle East. We believe in the Bible in so far as it is translated correctly and we believe the Book of Mormon to another testament of Jesus Christ. We believe that all man kind will have Eternal Life. However, we believe that the quality of each indiviuals eternity depends upon who they live their life here on earth. We believe in a God who is just and a Savior who is merciful and allows us to repent and be forgiven of our sins so that we might dwell eternally with God the Father and his Son,Jesus Christ. This is what we believe!

WHO CARES?

God is dead and we are all alone!

Religions were the first invention of mankind.
- Why is there lightning?
--Someone up there must be mad at us!

- Why did my boat sink in the big waves?
--Someone down there is mad at me!

- Why did that dog dig up that dead guy?
--He is taking him to the afterlife!

- That snake bit me!
--Your going to die and the devil gets your soul.

etc. etc. etc. Once SCIENCE could explain these phenomenons, those "gods" started to lose followers........Now we have one.....where is he?

There is one thing that will forever set a Latter-Day Saint apart from all the world, be they Christian (so-called), Muslim, atheist or pagan: all other people can only BELIEVE the LDS Church is (inspired, silly, evil, merely good, etc.--fill in your own adjective), while any faithful Latter-Day Saint may, by following the rules set by God Himself, KNOW, with that knowledge obtainable only from the good Lord Himself, by witness of the Holy Ghost, that the Church is everything it claims to be. Science might well long for that kind of surety, which it can never possess. Only by testing God, by His own rules, can that sure knowledge be obtained.

Alas, fellow respondents who attempt futily to discredit the LDS Church--by your own words you demonstrate not only that you will likely never possess the knowledge of its truth--you quite patently DON'T want that knowledge. And so, in His kindness, God will not burden you with it. And by doing, will give you some claim, by way of your ignorance even if willful, to His mercy when that day comes you see and mourn your blindness.

But the joy of that sure knowledge you will lack forever in this world, I fear, while those of us who have tested and proven God can rejoice even in a world filled with all too many as blind as yourselves.

Though there are many opinions on the Mormons I have come to rely on the simple test laid out by Jesus himself, "by their fruit ye shall know them."
They are among the most "Christian" people I have ever met.

I suppose I'd be interested in knowing what denomination claims Christians who reject Mormonism. There are many that claim that theirs alone is the path, and cite to chapter and verse in the Bible to support that. Catholics may say it of Protestants, Baptists of Episcopalians, Jehovahs Witnesses of Baptists, and so forth.

So many mutually exclusive adaptations, it stands to reason that all are wrong. The Bible can be read literally or as allegory, in part or as a whole, to support anything from Hinduism to Cargo Cults to Pandeism - and that's part of the wild religious scenery that Martin was talking about.