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Thanks "Wiccan", Rob Adams and "E Favorite" (just above) for saying nice things about my rather long but apparently thought-provoking June 20, 7:30 pm reply to Prof. Borg's excellent essay. For the record, Wiccan, I'm not a preacher--though years back I did a stint in theological seminary, and got just a little practice then. But I didn't become a minister or pastor or anything like that.

No, you're right, E Favorite--even luck won't get the clergy to buy into a New Reformation. It will have to be started up by people--lay people and some clergy--who as poster Rob Adams puts it, "demonstrate that we are in it for the benefit of all and not just ourselves." But hey, why did Luther do something so risky ("Here I stand" in front of Emperor Charles V at Worms) that he had to hide out in Wartburg Castle for something like a year? And why did other reformers of that era risk their necks (literally) to bring the 16th-century Reformation into being? Even a good many of their lay-followers (colleagues in faith, really) had to flee from their homelands or face the Inquisition. But somehow, the movement grew.

I don't mean to get grisly or morbid. I don't think our 21st-century New Reformation will cost anyone their lives. But yes, it will certainly cost some their salaries, pensions, status and reputations. Despite these "inconveniences," when God's Spirit inspires people to act with deep conviction, they don't really care much about such things. And somehow, they find that their basic needs are usually met.

Incidentally, I lifted my posted comments from an eight-page essay on the "New Reformation" subject that I wrote a few months ago. Well-known Christian author Phyllis Tickle thought so well of it that she surprised me by reading (with considerable conviction, I think) about a page-and-a-half of it to an audience of about 250 conferees assembled for the closing session of "The Church for the 21st Century," a three day conference held May 10-12 of this year at the National Cathedral in Washington, DC. Phyllis and Dr. Borg were both featured speakers at the event. I'm fairly certain Dr. Borg wasn't present when a portion of my essay was read, so I don't have any idea what he would think of it--but I would certainly like to know! Phyllis's theme in her principal address two days earlier was that the world experiences a religious transformation every 500 years, and that the "emergent church" is in fact a transformation equal in magnitude and importance to the Great Reformation of Luther's time. Dr. Borg's presentation, to my ears, described an "emerging paradigm" in Christian faith centering on "this life and transformation in this life" as an approach to the life of faith quite different from the "earlier paradigm" centered on "the afterlife and where you will spend eternity." The two paradigms, which still coexist in Prof. Borg's view, are kind of what you're getting at, aren't they, E Favorite?

Regarding a new reformation - great idea, but good luck getting clergy to buy into it - they'd have to give up so much power. And lots of lay people would like it either - no guaranteed place in heaven just by saying "I believe!"

GaryD,

I know all about Henry Ford's previously unheard of $5.00 a day here in Detroit. It was unique. The exception, NOT the rule.

As to: "Sorry if you took it personally tokia - not."

Are you writing your posts from 1991?

Sorry if you took it personally tokia - not.

No one with sense buys that garbage now days.

First the real roots of the great depression goes back to the economic hamstringing of Germany by the Treaty of Versaille and the unintended consequence that it made the Fench economy overly dependent on such hand outs that could not be supplied indefinitely in any case. This was foollowed up by a series of tarriff measure in the US culminating in Smoot-Holley. followed by similar retaliatory measures by the various European powers. Resulting in world trade collapsing.

REal wages were actually higher in 1928 tha they ever been before thans in no small part to Ford's attempt to hire the best and the brightest people from other companies by doubling or in a few cases tripling wages. Yeah that five bucks a day doesn't sound like much now but hambuger food and housing were far lower than they are now in comparison to peoples wages - in no smal part thanks to governemnt rules and regulations.

WQhat you don't know about economic or any other reality would fill a good many books and already has I recommend youread something not written by Galbraith who is to economics what tuberculosis is to good health.

Vote RON PAUL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcQQ05XtAQ4

Ooh! Struk a nerve with GaryD, it seems.

I know when The Great Depression started. I indicated that those conditions existed prior to '29.

The stock market crash only affected (directly) a small percentage of Americans.

You know, you can scroll up to re-read the posts you comment on.

If you REALLY knew what you were talking about, you would be able to clarify my error (if any) without all the nastiness. That says more about YOUR credibility than mine.

Furthermore, you can call me a "dimwit" for not recognizing your acronym, but acronyms are at least in all caps, if not separated by periods too...dimwit!

You see, GaryD, grammar is like facts, you need to use them correctly to be understood.

Tokia is obviously an acronym for your overly long handle dimwit by the way the Great Depression started in 1929 not 1931 when the conditions you talk about came into play.

Thanks for indicating that you wouldn't know real history or economics if it bit you on the nose.

But that makes you a good little leftist churl so have fun knowing you have lots of friends. All of them less knowlegeable than yourself if that's any consolation to you.

GaryD,

"I read actual history. And economics and no reputable economist believes that tokia."

Uh...with all due respect, what is "tokia"? Furthermore, you don't read actual history, just like you don't follow current events.

Vomiting Neo-Con talking points is not insightful discourse, and bandying a copious verborum is not actual history.

"Goverenment is not the be all and end all, it generally is the source of far more trouble than it can ever possibly cure and the more you expect it to do for you the less it will be able to do well."

You hate big government sooo much that you support our wild military interventions and the creation of puppet governments through occuption around the world...

Right - just own up to it, Gar, you are a radical...

A neo con revolutionary looking to spread revolution and conflict throughout the middle east so that you can then remake it as you see fit. To do so you will use any tactic at your disposal... however, you need big government/military complex to do so.

To the last two posters.

1st I don't do cough syrup most of it makes =me nauseous and keeps me awake.

2nd I read actual history. And economics and no reputable economist believes that tokia.

3rd I don't propose utopianism. As long as human being are in this world it isn't ever going to be perfect. I propose what on the basis of history has in general worked. Goverenment is not the be all and end all, it generally is the source of far more trouble than it can ever possibly cure and the more you expect it to do for you the less it will be able to do well.

The problem with neo cons like Gary is not that they were wrong in their predictions, it is that they STILL think they are right!

As for your inference on the great depression and capitalism....what a hodgepodge of ideas and radicalism just as bad as any Marx and or any other utopian.

Stop drinking all that cough syrup and then blabbering on these forums grampa.

GaryD

"We got the Great Depression largely because of government sponsored trade wars led by a proliferation of tarriff laws."

No, the depression was caused by industry being allowed free reign over the marketplace. They were producing more goods than ever in history, keeping most of the profits, and not raising wages. Then the whole situation was disguised for a time by consumers buying on credit, but eventually underpaid consumers were no longer able to buy the glut of goods in the marketplace at all. So production halted, then massive layoffs started (prior to the stock market crash). Industry was not producing, consumers could not buy and it became a cyclical problem.

I realize you were making a larger point, but that was just factually wrong.

I am neither a zionist nor a totalitarian sorry. Do I think The neocon crowd was correct in their assessment of the situation in the Middle East? Largely yes.

Haves and have nots are in this day and age largely a creation of government interference in the normal progress of market forces. We got the Great Depression largely because of government sponsored trade wars led by a proliferation of tarriff laws.

Do I think there is more terrorism now than ever before? Of course! The pre war trends indicated that that would have been true whether we took out Saddam or not.

Is the increasing presence of terrorist and terrorism in the world proof that taking out Saddam was wrong? Scarcely. AS stated previously that was going to happen regardless.

There were and are essentially two choices in dealing with the fact of terrorism and terrorists.
You can deal with it as a policing problem. Against which is the fact that no matter how good you are - and by law we aren't very good at that and I hope we never get that good at it because it will require making permanent the very assaults on personal liberty everyone here decries - once in a while the bad guys will succeed and in the case of these clowns that could mean 1000's dead.

Or you can try to be proactive and find away to give the have nots the opprtunity to become haves.

Right...

dont forget that the Neo Conservative movement is a distinctly Jewish one in origin - Strauss, Kristol, Podhoretz - and in planning/implementation - Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith ring a bell?

I love all of how all of the Christian-hating bigots like AISM and Zionist totalitarians like Concerned and Gary on here go nuts when you bring up this fact...

It seems that criticism is a one way street.

I don't think there is going to be a New Christian Reformation in America; there is going to be continued decline. Christianity has devolved to little more than a weak philosophy, or a primitive fundamentalist rote. But it will continue within the hearts of a few people, probably for all time.

Gary D.

Depending on one’s perspective you could be absolutely correct.

I am not suggesting that we lay down and let some fanatic import a nuclear bomb and set it off on US soil or anywhere for that matter. At some point in the past we (the world, not just the US) have created the reality of what we are experiencing today. Not just through war, but also through world trade creating the haves and have-nots and also through ideological differences and how we communicate those.

We can not just say starting July 4th we will be a peaceful nation and never go to war. Events have already been set in motion. What we can do is start to change and move towards peace, move towards greater regard for the world as a whole, move toward loving our enemies. There are many steps to be taken and if you do not start the journey you will never arrive at your destination.

It is always a matter as individuals what do we want to stand for? We demonstrate to others what we stand for. Currently we are demonstrating self interest and aggression.
Be what you want to create. If you want violence as a last resort, then use violence as a last resort. If you want people to use violence when they are fearful, then when you are fearful use violence. If you want peace, be peaceful. If you want a compassionate world, show compassion… for everyone.

If someone wants to follow the true tenet of Christianity then violence does not seem to be an answer. If someone wants to only use portions of Christianity (or any belief), then certainly at some point violence may be used.

Neither is inherently bad, but do carry different consequences. I am not talking about damnation or divine retribution (that is always a matter of personal belief), but how life on Earth plays out. It is a matter of what works and what does not work. If I am in Minneapolis and want to go to Seattle why head towards New York? It is not wrong, it just does not serve my purpose. Currently the approach most taken by the human race does not seem to get use where we say we want to go.

Mr.Borg,
Interstingly, the most zealous supporters of the destructive war on Iraq was by the Christian right-are they not Christian??
Were the Crusaders'wars agianst the Muslim east including destruction, pillage and the two hundred year occupation-insitgated by the Pope-were these Crusades not Christian??

Christians keep recycling Christian virtues and love on the one hand and on other committ the ugliest attrocities against humanity,here are some undisputed examples:the most destructive wras in history instigated by and within Christian Europe as well as the holocaust,the nuclear war on Japan-by a committed Christian Truman-the genocide of European Bosnian Muslims, the Inquisition in spain imposed on Muslims and Jews, colonialism and numerous other wars.

Is Christianity one thing and Christians another??

I have been reading the posts and have particularly noted Speed123's comments. Wow, what a Christian! He is really a good example, for all the Christians to follow. Why let's all be like him; hear the love in his comments?

A couple of weeks ago, he called me an idiot.

Now that I have posted this, I will be waiting for his next "Christ-inspired" Biblically correct insult.

Some Good Words of Wisdom again from the animal kingdom:

Gators vs. Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. Muslims, it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?

GaryD is the sample I would provide to the Neo-Con Zombie-sniffing hounds!

If one does not change one's stance based upon what the enemy does one will ose and lose badly.

Mr. Verduin.

I agree with Wiccan, a nice post.

The nice thing about the post was it was spiritual and not dogmatic. We need more spirituality and less dogma.

Our actions both as individuals and as a nation need to be a demonstration of what we want to be. If you want peace demonstrate peace. This is accomplished by being peaceful but it is also achieved by demonstrating that we are in it (what ever it is) for the benefit of all and not just ourselves.

We can not react out of fear and we can not change our stance based on what ‘the enemy does’ otherwise you stand for nothing.

Actually what Mr. Borg points out is the usual leftist talking points espoused by know nothings that think history began five minutes before Bush was sworn in.

Mr. Verduin,

That was some of the finest preaching I've heard, and my father's kin are Primitive Baptist. I wish it could be preached in every congregation in America on their respective Sabbaths. Well said, sir.

The containment was in its death throws and had become little more than a cover under which Saddam slew his foes real and imagined and blamed their deaths on starvation caused by the Sanctions. (Oh and someone please tell me when the last time sanctions ever availed of anything against totalitarian swine).

France needed cash which they have always gotten by selling arms to various of the poorer 3rd world slugs - thew ones who either could afford top line stuff or didn't want to buy fromn the US or Russia. The oil for food program was as is now obvious to even the most obtuse leftist little more than a bad joke. Germany and Russia were in nearly as bad a shape. (Why else is Russia selling arms to the Iranians who are funding terror campaigns in Chechnya?)

What REagan Gave Saddam was obsolete AA missles,and possibly the formula for Mustard gas and Sarin. And Reagan wasn't the only one Germany France and possibly Russia gave him similr equipment and Russia had been equipping his Army for decades. And given the Theocrats on the other side of that war, we got what we wanted out of the deal - a tie.

For American Christians Marcus Borg cuts to the painful heart of the matter when he asks, "So how should those of us who are Christian respond in this situation"--i.e. that "our country violated Christian teaching by launching a pre-emptive war" which our government is still tragically prosecuting, more than four years later?

Let's face up to it: this crisis is incredibly great and daunting, but the response of a fragmented, disoriented Christian church in America has been pitifully weak and impotent--and this despite its aggregate membership of many tens of millions of adherents. Our sense of urgency in the face of this crisis is as palpable as our pervasive feeling of hopelessness. What is to be our remedy?

Many American Christians are passionately longing for a New Reformation. Indeed, it already exists in their hearts and hopes, and in their prayers. Concurrently, they are longing and praying for a new ecclesiastical structure--a New Reformation Church--to embody and empower this New Reformation. And they are beginning to sense that this new structure will have to come about through a kind of collective rebellion of righteous indignation on the part of mostly ordinary people--an iconoclasm against the idolatry of defunct denominationalism.

The people who are not in the current religious establishment, but who are alive to the impending New Reformation, are insistently asking: Can faithful American Christians, who demographically dominate the wealthiest and most powerful country on the planet, continue to justify, condone, participate in, or pay taxes for so-called pre-emptive wars such as the U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq or the American-approved and supplied invasion and destruction of Lebanon by Israel--wars that kill, maim, disperse, and traumatize many thousands of people who are made in God's image, and whom God loves? And what about hunger, homelessness, poverty, and AIDS? What about a lack of jobs, a liveable income, and health insurance? What about the world-wide crisis of global warming?

American Christians who are attunded to the need for a New Reformation perceive with clarity that the fragmented American church is too frightened and anxious to heed the Spirit of God's calling in public life. As Professor Borg seems to imply, each denominational fragment has become narcissistic and navel-gazing in its idolatry toward the individual self, the individual congregation, and its own particular denominational history and rituals of worship. Each denomination,and most congregations, fail to see how hopelessly inadequate they are for the greater mission to which Christ is calling their membership.

The Church of Jesus Christ, in its relations with government, is not at liberty to shrink from its inherent "love your neighbor" and "love your enemies" obligations. In the name of faithful discipleship, it is called to take its place alongside other secular and religious special-interest groups and advocate vigorously for justice and peace in our nation and the world. The church's avowed special interests should be poverty, and its elimination; injustice, and its overturning; peace, and its realization; oppression, and its removal; discrimination, and its disappearance; disease, and its eradication; and the environment of planet Earth, and its protection.

The imperative of a strong, prophetic, high-minded, and highly influential voice in the affairs of government will be recognized, preached, taught, and acted upon in the impending New Reformation Church as an inescapable faith obligation--as Christians, individually and corporately, seek to "live right with God." The faith obligation to personal morality--to personal godliness--and to evangelize will be understood to be only half the battle, only half the obligation, and only half the gospel.

As Dr. Borg eloquently points out, the Iraq War is the war that "never should have happened." Tragically, a fragmented and cowardly American church, by virtue of its impotence, was unable and unwilling to avert it or to stop it. This is why a New Reformation, leading to a New Reformation Church, is necessary and about to happen in the United States of America. When the Spirit of God moves, and awakens people to his/her agenda, he/she cannot be stopped.

"The Gulf War is now ended. Saddam No longer rules Iraq. That in and of itself is a worthwhile accomplishment given that the man was a tyrant and warmonger of the first water. If that is all we accomplish there it was worth doing every bit as much as removing Adolph Hitler was worth doing."

Saddam was contained after Gulf War I. He hadn't made a move against any of his neighbors since he was forced from Kuwait and after ten years of sanctions he certainly did not represent a viable threat to the United States. There were no WMD stockpiles - that was a fantasy hyped by Cheney's staff and their mouthpieces in the media.

It's true that Saddam was a repressive dictator, but that didn't stop Reagan/Bush from giving him economic and political aid at the precise time that he was gassing the Kurds and Iranians. Maybe you weren't aware of this history, but the fact is, they used crimes Saddam committed 20 years earlier as a pretext to invade Iraq and seize control of the oil fields.

As bad as Saddam was, the Iraqis are suffering now more than ever - their nation is on the brink of total collapse and there is a growing refugee crisis as millions of them flee for their lives.

I realize it's not pretty, but you must face up to the fact that you were lied to by your government to terrify you into supporting a war that was waged to enrich their major campaign contributors. The only ones who have profited from this bloodbath are the execs at Halliburton, Exxon, Lockheed-Martin, Blackthorn and others that financed Bush/Cheney's rise to power.

Miguel, I never stated a word about Thompson, that was Concerned. I dont care about Thompson because I am not Republican.

My citation of 100 million is from all communist atrocities and I am obviously not using holocaust victims in this count.

As for Hitler vs. Trotsky, Lenin and company - the pure numbers make the communists 3 times as murderous as the Nazis. 20 million vs 6 million.

Famine was the most effective tool in the communist play book and to discount this as deliberate genocide is to be either ignorant or in approval of the tactic.

Which are you?

8 million starved in the Ukraine alone for the forced industrialization programs. Tons upon tons of grain was exported from the country as millions were starving to death - men, women and children resorted to canbalism.

The propaganda taught in public schools tries to hid the vicious nature of the Bolsheviks while going on endlessly about the crimes of the nazis.

Both should be taught and done so in proportion. Hitler was horrible but nothing compared to the Bolsheviks and Soviets.

As for pointing out the idea that Christians had a hand in Fascism...I will also point out that Jews occupied disproportionate numbers in the Bolsheviks and communist party (even in the US) and especiall leadership positions.

Okay first off being called delusional by a leftist is like being called green by a frog, feline by a cat, or canine by a dog.

HOw did The Gulf War end? Answer it didn't. NO peace treaty ergot no end to the war. We are technically still at war with N.Korea. That is the longest ceasefire the world has ever seen.

The Gulf War is now ended. Saddam No longer rules Iraq. That in and of itself is a worthwhile accomplishment given that the man was a tyrant and warmonger of the first water. If that is all we accomplish there it was worth doing every bit as much as removing Adolph Hitler was worth doing.

Oh and Mr. Smith Your numbers are off drastically.
And your understanding of the Crusades is deplorable.

This follows so many others and many can be summed up in Homer Simpson's statement "I it is difficult, I should not do it." So "because we want to avoid the humiliation of admitting that we made a terrible mistake .."

Of course we should admit a mistake. But it is just as wrong to admit a mistake if we were right to move against Saddam. He was a threat. He did not comply with UN directives. We took action. They continued to fight beyond a reasonable point and now those in Iraq continue to suffer because of the actions of others in Iraq.

The war is difficult, but difficult is not always wrong. Perhaps a case can be made. But it has not been made here.

The supporters of this war appear to be totally delusional, bereft of any notion of what has really happened in Iraq and indeed the world! The lost to our nation from the criminal, immoral acts of George and his gang of fascist thugs is beyond calculation; his destruction of the very foundations of our Republic may destroy the very existence of America, and his incompetence and poor choices for people in his administration have made government service into a dirty joke!

I always felt the war had a large messianic vein in the popular imagination. It was few people who really thought the Rapture was at hand (although I can count some of my relatives among them). But the American popular consciousness did see the toppling of that murderous, (adjective), (adjective) dictator Saddam Hussein as fully worthy: a noble act to be served up front (while we also exercise some misplaced revenge).

Recalling our exuberance and sensitivity from the 1990s, many said it would be a kinder, gentler type of war, in which we would help out a wretched group of quarreling brothers named Iraq.

Christianity's claim that we are all brothers and the faith-based American conviction that all people share American values were the cultural points of departure for the big love-in we thought we were going to be having. What a drag! Now Americans are bored with Iraq and want to go home. As someone who worked in Iraq and knows many Iraqi people, I do thank Marcus Borg for raising this issue. There are at least two million Iraqi refugees. Iraq is an apartment complex in flames because of repeated acts of arson, initiated and presided over by us.

Peace to all.

SPEED - Please tell us you don't actually think Fred Thompson is destined for the Presidency?! There's no call for being daft.

"The secular utopian Bolsheviks and Soviets were 10 times worse than the Fascists"

The Nazis invented ovens and gas-rooms with an eye towards economically efficient genocide. Noril'lag, recognizing the horrors of the climate and all the people who died there due to malnutrition and overwork, was a hard-labor work-camp. The City built by Stalin's slave-laborers - Norilsk - is still inhabited today, by ~100,000. Auschwitz/Birkenau was a human slaughterhouse, with a small operation of slave labor (where the primary growth industry was slaughter assistance). Do you not see the difference?!

Also note: Adolf Hitler was born and raised Christian, professed and supported jingoistic/xenophobic Christianity using Party organs (sound familiar?) throughout the Third Reich, and Pope Pius XII and his Church only passively opposed the anti-Jewish laws after quite actively supporting the National-Socialist movement in the early 1930's (note: We know all Christians aren't Catholics, just pointing it out; Very few American Protestant groups cared about the plight of German Jews in the 1930's either, btw). So really, please, stop including Holocaust victims in these "atheists killed" counts, it's totally disingenuous and rather manipulative.

Further, we now have access to large swaths of Soviet archives. The "Great Terror" of 1937-38 resulted in ~ 600,000 executions, primarily through the "troika" 'courts' (Party Leader - KGB Agent - Government official = Court with ability to impose execution, no appeals). You're touting inaccurate estimations from the Cold War era. If you want to include famine deaths, gulag deaths, etc. to the Soviet execution counts, you're forced to include every European WW2 civilian & military casualty on Hitler's death-count (to apply a similar standard) -- And that's the only list that's approaching 100 million.

Honestly, bone up on the books, my friend. We've learned a lot about the inner workings of the Soviet Union in the past 15 years. Don't let that research pass you by.

A true Christian, wow!! Besides the Anglicans, such creatures are a rare specimen in this so-called "Christian" nation of ours.

Great piece.

500 years is a long time....and the Catholic Church did learn from mistakes, hence the STRONG opposition from the Vatican before and during the war.

Did you see any other world leaders lecture Bush when they met together public like John Paul did? Nope.

On the other hand, have you leftists learned from the horrors of Bolshevikism and Communism a mere 80 years old?

Or would you rather focus on the faults of your enemy and sweep those 100 million deaths under the table in the name of secular utopia?

Did you see the statue for the victims of communism. A disgrace! But all to typical for the current intellectual and political elite.

The secular utopian Bolsheviks and Soviets were 10 times worse than the Fascists...but are not discussed in our media, schools or universities...

Want to change the world, BGONE, look at the recent horrors in your closet before dragging up conquests of 500 years ago.

SPEED: right the wrongs of the past first. The transgressions of 500 years ago lead us to where we are today, the religious authorities demanding and getting moral government. How did W get elected to invade Iraq? No evangelicals equals no Bush equals no invade Iraq. (Saddam should have supported Gore)

Lies that cause people to believe in God are moral, according to the Catholic church. The other Christian faiths are just a bunch of money grubbing heretics gone into business for themselves. Tony Supprano wouldn't stand still for that just like the pope 500 years ago. Inquisition? Anyone?

Jesus said, "by their actions you will know them"

"Enjoy the global freedoms protected by the USA and other freedom countries of the world!!! We fight terror whenever and wherever."

Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bombIran
Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bombIran
Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bombIran

Lieb, lieb, lieb, lieb, Lieberman

Thanks for the reminder of the propaganda we here every day on the news, Goebbels...I mean, Concerned.

PS - Spainish conquest was in the name of nationalism and colonalism.

A common endevor among all nations of that day and age...

BGONE, how long does it take you to realize that the transgressions of 500 years ago are not morally equivalent to those committed in the last 80 years.

Quinn,

Spoken like a Democrat still suffering from the Gore/Kerry losses.

And just think, Fred Thompson will be our next president!!!

Enjoy the global freedoms protected by the USA and other freedom countries of the world!!! We fight terror whenever and wherever.

9/11 once but never again!!!!

Anyone who thinks invading another country is a Christian action needs to go back to Sunday School. Bush and his ilk need to examine the difference between sin and virtue. "Pride," as in the kind that makes you think you can impose your way of life militarily, has always been a sin in the Catholic Church. Its opposing virtue is humility, a virtue as essential (if not more so) as chastity and honesty. Remember "Turn the other cheek." Retaliation and preemptive war may be natural reactions, but there is nothing Christian about them.
So how about it. Have we created a responsibility to fix what we helped break?

SPEEDY: How long does the receiver of stolen merchandise have to keep it before it's his?

The question was this: "Some political leaders say we need to get out of Iraq now. Others say we are obligated to stay and try to restore civil order and authority. What's the moral position? Is there one?"

Marcus, it would have been interesting if you would have answered the question instead of patting yourself on the back for taking a position against the war from the beginning. You were right Marcus. Can you now, pray tell, use your great foresight and wisdom on the current situation? Pleases tell us, "are we morally obliged to stay or not?"

What a typical response, BGONE...you bore me.

JR, you're suggesting we can remove the orderlys from the mental institution "in a way that leaves order" Good idea. Now why can't W see that?

People fight wars for their own purposes. They do not have answers to it also. America should pull its troops out in a way that leaves order in Iraq.

Phew SPEED. For a minute there I thought everyone got it wrong. That's a load off my mind. So Catholics were agin it all along. Where do I send the money?

While the Catholics are feeling so righteous, getting it straight from the beginning, maybe they can return the Aztec and Inca gold used to make the sacred utensils, chalices, monstras, tabernacles and so on.

No war is justified by religion. People fight wars for their own purposes. They do not have answers to it also. America should pull its troops out in a way that leaves order in Iraq.

No war is justified by religion. People fight wars for their own purposes. They do not have answers to it also. America should pull its troops out in a way that leaves order in Iraq.

You idiots and simpletons! Same old trite propaganda on these boards...

Want to look at true apologetics? Look at the communists, secularists and atheists who killed 100 million in the last 80 years....

In fact, there was just a monument dedicated to it in Washington. The ceremony was highjacked (no pun intended) as a call to fight the "War on Terror" when in fact communism and radical islam have nothing in common.

Also, interesting - in a gruesome way - how the victims of the Bolsheviks et al (100 million) get a tiny statue on a street corner in Washington while the victims of the fascists (6 million) get a huge museum in a prime location.

As the saying goes..."we are all equal, it is just that some of us are more equal than others..."

PS - Rogers numbers for the crusades etc are BS, the many of the wars he sites are not "christian" wars and you forgot to use the plural of death.

PPS - I know that most of you are simple; however, try not lumping all Christians together.

Catholic opposed this war from the start.

“Concerned The Christian Now Liberated” makes some assertions in his post that don’t stand up to scrutiny:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted…

Saddam was contained after the first Gulf War. The world heard not a peep out of him since he was driven from Kuwait and we now know that the threat he posed was greatly exaggerated by those who had an interest in driving us to war. Moreover, Reagan and Bush I gave Saddam political and economic support while he was actually gassing the Kurds and the Iranians. Using these very crimes to justify the second Gulf War twenty years later was merely a pretext and a hypocritical one at that.

2. Iran has been contained. (besides fighting the civil war in Bahgdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes oil continues to flow from the region.)

Iran was already contained before the war with Iraq and has been for decades. However, now that Iraq has been handed over to the Shiite majority, Iran’s power has grown in the region while ours has receded.

3. Libya has become civil.

Gaddafi has made some comments lately that indicate a willingness to work with the U.S., but he’s still a brutal dictator and hardly civil.

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained.

North Korea has been contained since the end of the Korean War, but they now have a robust nuclear program. Consequently, their power has grown relative to America’s.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace thanks to the Patriot Act that stopped the financing of the IRA also thanks to finally some pragmatic political leaders.

Northern Ireland is at peace thanks to the willingness of the Irish and British peoples to embrace peace. Decades of suffering the tragedies of political violence often have that effect on people. The Patriot Act had absolutely nothing to do with it and has greatly eroded our own freedoms at home.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls (analogous to the two Czech republics). Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords.

They don’t. The wall actually diverges from Israel’s internationally recognized borders (the green zone) even further into historical Palestine. Moreover, the walls have not brought peace to the region.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

And yet, we keep hearing from the administration that al Qaeda is stronger than ever in Iraq. Moreover, despite the fact that Pakistan is harboring bin-Laden, the military dictator who rules Pakistan has been supplied by the Bush Administration with aid, including weapons.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace.

Fanatical Islam is on the rise in the Middle East. Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Palestine are all on the brink of civil war and Islamic fundamentalists stand to draw power from the
conflicts in each nation. The Reagan Administration tore down the walls to unite Germany, but now you propose building new ones. We seem to be moving backwards.

8. And the stock markets and economies around the globe continue to show good growth and opportunity for the common stock holders.

The stock market has performed well for the economic elite that owns the majority of shares in U.S. corporations. However, the wages of most people in the U.S. and around the globe are flat or actually falling when compared to earlier periods. Also, gas is near record prices and is driving inflation, so our purchasing power is decreasing. At the same time, the U.S. housing market is slumping. Our economy is being propped up by credit, but as foreclosures rise, credit will become tighter.

So George and his guys and gals have not been perfect but there are some major accomplishments.

The Bush Administration has been an unmitigated disaster for America and the world and this is reflected in his approval ratings, which are near the lowest in history.

What is the moral response to someone who believes that turning the other cheek is an invitation to do more harm? What is the moral response to someone who takes delight at the sight of death and destruction? What is the moral response to someone who does not care who his bomb kills?

Your misplaced moral indignation makes it sound like it is American soldiers that are setting off bombs in the crowded marketplaces and at wedding receptions. Your ideological rhetoric makes it sound like America is the problem and that once we are gone that Iraq will become some great utopian bastion of peace and harmony. Are you insane?

Is your argument that if only we had left Saddam Hussein in power that Iraq would be better off? -- the Saddam that used poison gas to exterminate an entire village of Kurdish women and children? -- the same Saddam that started an 8-year war against Iran that killed and maimed tens of thousands of his people? -- the Saddam that ordered the invasion of Kuwait? -- the Saddam that used the U.N. Oil For Food program to rebuild his 5 palaces while he watched his people starve? -- or maybe the Saddam that ordered missiles to be fired at American pilots enforcing the U.N. no-fly zone, not just once, but many times? Are you saying that the Iraqi people were better off under the leadership of a madman – is that your moral position?

America invaded Iraq with the idea of replacing a murderous and unstable dictator with a democracy. So long as this was one of our driving purposes, I think we can claim some moral high-ground. Unfortunately, the Occupation has been so mismanaged by the Bush Administration that it now appears unlikely that what had been a noble goal will ever be fully realized.

One argument why America should leave is that we are tired of paying the price, both monetarily and in blood, of the Occupation. We are frustrated by the lack of progress being made. Being tired and frustrated may be a reality, but there is no ‘morality’ in such an argument.

So with the goal of a democracy unmet, there is only one moral question left to ask, although there are many ways to ask it: If America leaves tomorrow, will the situation in Iraq get better or worse? With no soldiers walking the streets, will the bombings suddenly end or will they double in number? Will the terrorists of Iraq care for its people any better than Saddam did? Will a government of unrestrained Mullahs care for the welfare of every Iraqi more or less than our soldiers do?

And as for Christianity, Cut-and-run sounds amazingly similar to what the two men who preceded the good Samaritan did.

Roger Smith: You serve an important function in this city of amnesia. :)

I think CONCERNED TCL did a better job of addressing the question.

The morality of the war ala faith can be addressed by revisiting "The Battle of Jericho" definitely a just war because God was there. How is Iraq different?