All Comments (33)

And it is this very issue that will destroy us all, and the earth with it. Nuclear weapons can do that you know... Minimal protection, let us remember that, because I can't trust god to save this world. I believe when the world has had enough of the religious zealots nuking the world, we will finally throw off the shackles of this out-moded way of religious thinking. History moves on. First there were many, gods, then just a few, then just one... next there will be none. Let go of the fear people.

Hey there

I am 12 years old and i am already blessed by the lord!
He has changed many lives and are serving our father god in heaven.Remember god loves everyone of us!
He provides and helps us through our struggles.
I hope the world follows us, the christians not us following the world.
God has a plan for you Marcus Borg.
Luv Chloe

Hi Dr. Borg. I want to thank you so much for your writings. They have been a great comfort and revelation to me. So much so, that I am interested in your perspective on the age-old problem of suffering, particularly as it relates to how/whether god acts in the world.

As I've grown older, I find I have an acute, inescapable and increasing sensitivity to all manner of suffering: the daily emotional, physical, psychological and spiritual suffering of humans, the suffering of the young and the old, the wealthy and the poor, the guilty and the innocent, as well as the suffering of the whole creation - the remarkable cruelty of its design - that most creatures must kill other living things to sustain themselves.

In order to believe in an immanent and transcendent creator god, one who is omnipotent and omniscient, the creator of all that is, musn't one must conclude that suffering is part of that god and is with us 'by design'? To place the blame on the free will of the creator's creatures seems a cop-out to me.

All of the age old ideas about love and the need for free will, or the conclusion that suffering is a result of a "fall", or of "sin", or of the wrong choices, mistakes and defects of the creator's creatures rather than the creator who made them ring hollow for me.

Oh, there have been creative updates to this standard way of thinking of the problem of suffering. Pierre Teilhard de Chardin dealt with it by asserting his belief that god cannot yet reveal himself to us because we, along with the entire universe, are not yet in a sufficient state in the process of our collective evolution towards spirit to allow him to do so.

But can there truly be a transcendent god who "cannot" reveal himself? A god who is constrained by our primitive evolutionary stage? Notice the words Chardin uses and tell me if that truly describes a transcendent god, an omnipotent, omniscient creator who is "above" time.

Could not a truly unconstrained god have constructed a universe where love does not require free will? Where suffering is not needed to elicit a "higher good"? Or any of the other myriad of explanations we use to comfort ourselves about the problem of suffering?

Should the fact that we cannot, from our limited human experience and perspective, conceive of how that might be accomplished result in our placing a box around a limitless god? Is it not an example of incredible hubris for us to believe that a truly transcendent god could not have created a world of love without suffering? Without hate? Without any need - at all - for any of the dualism which requires us to measure light against dark, warmth against cold, and goodness against evil, in order to know these things for what they are?

It seems to me there are really only two theistic choices that allow for divine intentionality: To believe there is a limitless god who 'chose' a model for the creation that included suffering when there was no absolute need to do so, or to conclude that there is some larger construct or framework which even god must work within and which required suffering as a critical element.

In the former case, we are led to question whether we can truly love and worship such a god. While in the latter case, we are led to question whether our love and worship is misplaced since there is something even larger than this god.

Yes. I believe the problem of suffering is quite a terrible conundrum. It is a barrier to faith for me despite the fact that I want so much to believe - and quite a depressing state of mind to be in.

A lot of times we humans try to put God in a box and there are many different boxes that we try to put Him in. Actually God is Pure Love and we do have free will. God does have a Plan and He has had it before He created anything either on the spiritual or material plane. God is a Trinity and Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews is God Incarnate whether People believe it or not. Jesus is not a second-rate prophet either. The original Apostles didn't understand very much at all until the Holy Spirit came to them on Pentecost but the one thing that they did get was when they said many different times that these are hard sayings, do we even understand that much. God does know everything and ultimately everything comes from God, for He created satan also and His plan is for the salvation of the entire human community. By the way what do you think being a Christian is? Actually it is carrying on the work of Jesus, as He said "Come follow Me". The True Living Triune Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds not a searcher of religious affiliations. The Jews are the Chosen People for the simple reason that God chose Them this doesn't mean that they are better or anything just that they are the Chosen People. Judaism is not a religion but a covential relationship between God and a People. Christianity is not a religion either but a covenential relationship between God and a Person. If you say that you are a Christian, then I recommend that you be one. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

God, being in control of the universe, can prevent suffering whenever He sees fit, but wherever free will exists, consequences of choice must also exist. We refuse to remember that we are the ones who betrayed God, not vice versa. We are the ones who listened to the lies of the evil one in the Garden of Eden. We chose to mistrust the heart of God. In breaking the one command He gave us, we set in motion a life of breaking His commands.

Being able to discipline oneself for the benefit of others is the very essence of maturity. Shantideva said, “All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself (at the expense of others).” How we spend our time shapes who we are, and how we assemble the persons we are is cause for social concern. What examples are adults, entrusted with the awesome responsibility for their care, to the rapidly maturing next generation who will impact our society positively or negatively depending on to what we expose them. We have experienced the natural progression of an unguarded nation towards neglect, corruption and the loss of idealism. When awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama said in his lecture, “…For if we each selfishly pursue only what we believe to be in our own interest, without caring about the needs of others, we end up harming not only others but also ourselves…” One does not have far to look to witness the chaos and devastation caused in our society due to our turning away as a nation from our Judeo-Christian roots. Our culture is rotting. Just listen to the lyrics of popular songs, pick up a book or magazine, view a movie or television show. Pay attention to the violence permeating our communities, the disrespect and lack of courtesy displayed by all, judicial tyranny, and the neglect of and abuse directed at women. (Could this be a direct result of pornography? Duh!) Then consider that perhaps we are allowing the wrong input in our lives and the lives of those who have been entrusted to our care. After all, we are raising our next generation of leaders!!! Words like diversity, pluralism and tolerance have anesthetized us to the reality of good and evil. Tolerance is the cultivation of an attitude of indifference to things we see happening around us. In the name of peace, we tolerate evil. In the name of tolerance, we accept sin and call it freedom of speech or freedom of sexual persuasion. Albert Einstein once said, “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” We dare not stand up for what we believe for fear of being labeled intolerant. Tolerance sees your sin and embraces it. Grace sees your sin and hands you over to Christ's healing embrace.

God cannot make us choose to abide with Him. For now, God, tormented, waits upon us through one holocaust after another. satan’s best deception is its general success in concealing its own reality from the human mind. Most people live in such naivete regarding evil. What will it take for us to take evil seriously? satan lashes out on the earth like a madman, setting people against each other all over the globe. it devastates many lives through starvation, alcoholism, substance abuse and pornography. satan is at work in the holocaust of violent, disrespecting aborting of babies; narcissism; materialism; elitism; and the self-absorption we wallow in when we do not ensure our next generation is brought up in a culture with enriching, wholesome values. Failing to label evil evil misleads us about the world in which we live and our necessity for God’s grace, the only real answer and hope for any of us. If you are not living in touch with God, it is easy to blame Him or pass judgment on Him. We experience suffering and temptation because mankind chose to follow satan. Lurking in the heart of man, evil will erupt when it is permitted to act unimpeded.

Entrusted with the awesome responsibility of my children’s care, I am concerned about how their generation is being raised, to what they are being exposed, and the examples they have in their lives. Are they being enriched in mind, spirit and character? They all need highly esteemed mentors to guide them along the path to liberty. If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything. “The humblest citizen of all the land, when clad in the armor of a righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error,” - William Jennings Bryan. Hopefully, seeking our own pleasure is not the measure of our lives. We are called to be intolerant in love. Why not live as Philippians 4:8 instructs us to: Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. God is reaching out to rescue us … God made nature to sing His praises, to declare His glory and to love Him. He made humans with the ability to choose. He could have ordered our obedience; instead, he calls for our heart.

In an effort to figure out what happened to my faith when I started applying my intellect to it, I have read Mr. Borg and others on this topic. I am still trying to figure this out...If God isn't an interventionist, why do we pray? God doesn't "need" praise, doesn't "deserve" thanks (if God didn't do anything to be thanked for), and both petitionary and intercessory prayer seem kind of moot. So, I repeat, why pray?

God:

Do you get frequent flyer miles when you come to this board and visit?

Norrie,

I would ask you to refrain from invoking Frege on my ass. I am as real as the Pegasus in Quine's 'On What There Is.'

I've never been to a frat party - the dudes there see that I'm covered in tattoos and proceed to talk to me about bad music. Russell D. is the dude, though...dude-a-saurus Rex.

On a serious note:

With you our hearts are given
We offer our tears as a gentle rain
The sun basks on our lowhung heads
Must you keep your chins high at all times
With no more than a simple prayer
We must part ways with you

Aw, come on Andrea!

Wanna take part in the wet T-shirt contest?

Yea buddy!

Russell D. and Luke,

Now that you two are getting along, it's a regular Frat Party in here...gag me with a spoon.

You dog you! I think it was the Slayer albums I owned as a kid. Amy Grant's "Heart in Motion" just couldn't cut it.

I can't answer that for you Luke, but I can give you the answer for me:

I was too busy feeling up the preacher's daughter in the back row.

I was implying, I figured you would pick up on it - but that's ok. Explain why I, once a very dedicated Christian (now an atheist) has never been touched by God, never felt his "love", never had any enlightening experiences, etc.?

Hey guess what?

God spelled backwards comes out to Dog. Coincidence? Maybe, hmm........

Hi, Aleco,

Theoretically, of course, you're right.

Practically, though, you're not.

DOG is a three-letter word that refers to a kind of animal I recognize. That kind of animal is the referent of the word DOG.

GOD is a three-letter word that refers to ... What? Nothing that I can recognize. There is no referent of the word GOD.

QED, DOG is more real than GOD.

So, my friend, where's the GOD-pound where I can find one of these GODS? I can refer you to plenty of DOG-pounds.

Best wishes to you.

As per the contemporary Christian theologian, Father Edward Schillebeeckx, (from his book, Church, the History of God,Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" . "Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."
And with this profound observation, Schillebeeckx rendered all prophets, i.e. Isaiah, Jesus, Mohammed, Smith et al, and prophecies moot!!!!!

It also unfortunately explains the tragedies of incidents like the massacre at VT and the daily suicide bombings in Iraq i.e. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR ACTIONS.

Rationalionist, Borg doesn't make the claim that "god is all knowing and all powerful."

Borg's God is just there - in good times and bad. Maybe like the moon and the stars. He seems to derive some comfort from that.

Thats funny, no where does it appear in your post that you are asking about others' explanantions, unless sarcasm was your tool of inquiry...?

I am not mocking, just wondering what your explanations are.

Luke, are you actually yearning for an answer or just an opportunity to mock those who do see God?

I spent years in church and never got it. No God-speak, not spirit-lifting, no love. I suppose it's my fault...that I'm not squeezing God into my soul hard enough?

Norrie,

I think as well as others, that Prof Borg words ARE true

Just because you dont see what he sees doesnt mean Prof Borg is the one with vision problems, there is another alternative...

Professor Borg,

I understand your God-yearnings, which are shared by millions.

Unhappily, nothing you have said here is true or correct.

Mt Borg is wrong - god does protect us, at least when it comes to sunburn and...moonburn. It's right there in the Bible.

Murder, on the other hand, is a bit tougher...

Amazing, the number of people here who are able to discern the mind of "god." What frequency do I tune into to hear his thoughts?

As a parent and a grandfather I want to raise children who are independent, loving, and strong enough to exist as individuals. For me, I think that's why God created a world with freedom of choice. Unfortunately, at least in my view, choice demands conflict and different possiblities. God does protect, but doesn't guanantee. I have expereinced times when prayer did provide protection for myself and loved ones. I have also experienced times when no amount of prayer could stop suffering or tragedy. In both instances God has been with me. That's who I know that God exists.

"Either he caused this event to happen or he is not all powerful."

Non sequitur. Having all power could include the ability to voluntarily delegate a certain amount of that power to volitional beings, who have the ability to use or misuse that power to ends not endorsed by the power-giver.

Speaking from a Judeo-Christian standpoint, God's omnipotence is merely one of God's attributes, each of which must be held in harmony with the other. There are many things God cannot do: lie (being truthful), die (being immortal), evil (being righteous). These inabilities don't undermine His omnipotence, rather they're consistent with the totality of His being.

"If God could have intervened to stop this (or the Holocaust, or 9/11, or the war in Iraq, or the individual tragedies that never make the news), but chose not to, what kind of sense does that make?"

It helps to make sense if we ask why didn't God intervene to stop the "little evils" you and I do daily. We don't truly want Him to stop all evil, merely to "grade on our curve".
Love (and the loving actions that result) must be voluntary to be true. God allows our (not His)unloving actions of some who reject Him and His way, in order to receive the voluntary love and obedience (relationship) that comes from those who chose to turn to Him. But no one "gets away" with anything... in the end, a perfect God will also bring perfect justice.

I agree, Rationalist, to some degree. With great power comes great responsibility. That isn't to say that God (if he does exist) is responsible for everything that men do, but he does have the power to change it, so what does that mean for his level of responsibility. Can we just that God does things we like and the Devil does things we hate?

You said:

"But to say that God is everywhere and in everything does not mean that God is the cause, directly or indirectly, of everything that happens. To say the obvious, utterly horrible things happen in the world, and with great frequency. To imagine that these somehow fit into the long-term purposes of God is blasphemous. Rather, we are creatures who are able to act (as we often do) in ways contrary to God's purpose and dream."

How do you reconclie this with the claim that god is all knowing and all powerful? Either he is or he is not.

Eihter he caused this event to happen or he is not all powerful.

Why look to god to explain such a tragedy?

You are correct in saying that god will never intervene to stop such events from unfolding (how could he? he doesn't exist). Ergo, it is up to mankind to address the problems and to hopefully avert future tragedies.

It's interesting to note that the weapon used in this mass killing (ie: a handgun with a reloadable clip) had been outlawed by the US government. Unfortunately, the Bush Administration and their rubber-stamp Republic Congress allowed that law to lapse two years ago in an obvious political payoff to the gun lobby. While one can't say with certainty that extending that law would have prevented yesterday's tragedy, one can imagine that the scope of the tragedy may well have been limited had the gunman not had easy and - more importantly - legal access to such weaponry.

It's clear that man CAN tread where god fain will not go, by enacting legislation that makes sense, when and if he wishes to do so. It's also clear that interventions from god himself are powerless to stop political decisions that are made to appease powerful feifdoms in this or any other country.

In this case, the exercise of our "free will" in rescinding a gun law that made perfect sense was encouraged by and paid for with millions of dollars in campaign contributions from the NRA, exacerbated by the philosophy of a political party that puts political health over human well being.

That's the real tragedy in yesterday's carnage.

Mr. Borg:

I am not a christian, and I don't believe in god, yet I agree with your post. Very well done sir.