All Comments (55)

Mr. Reiss,
I first want to thank you for your service to our country. I am very much indebted to you for the freedoms I now enjoy. However, I must respectfully disagree with you about the war in Iraq. My views are not shaped by the rising cost in life but my own experiences as a soldier in Iraq. We are not waging a war against a fascist power as you did. I fought as part of the advanced guard of the American empire against an unwilling people. Dr. Borg's analogy between the Roman Empire and the American Empire is very succint. We need a Christianity like that of the first century that will counter the dominant imperial ambitions and return us to a moral vision of foreign policy.

Also to anoymous who tried to counter the Chomskyte claim with a list of brutal dictators: you work against yourself when you fail to realize both Saddam Hussain and Pol Pot enjoyed U.S. support when they were opposing Hanoi and Tehran respectively.

zwosuclam mteio yadvuk slavnkxyh lurxapdg udkey wtchka

zwosuclam mteio yadvuk slavnkxyh lurxapdg udkey wtchka

zwosuclam mteio yadvuk slavnkxyh lurxapdg udkey wtchka

I know that I am a few days beyond the last posting, but I just have to add something. It appears that so many of the comments are made made with little thought and a lot of invective. I would recommend some serious reading and Jesus/Christianity scholarship to broaden your perspectives. There are a lot of good books/articles out there, even some by Marcus Borg. I just finished reading his "Meeting Jesus again for the first Time'. This is a version of Jesus for grown-ups with reasonable arguments and great insights.

Caryle Murphy, amen!

It would be an interesting experiment to divide comments into groups, according to whether they were written by "religionists" or "non-religionists," and then figure out which team is more abusive. Would that be some kind of experimental data as to which way of life is more considerate of others?

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Peter M.:

"Carl Sagan...commented...science was making ghosts and witches passe, and people were substituting UFOs and aliens in modern culture."

Very interesting. Jung found the same thing, as did Joseph Campbell (the inspiration for the "Star Wars" series of films, according to their author, George Lucas).

Even more interesting, the study of human's unconscious -- supported now by neuroscience -- seriously suggests that all human's religions, myths -- per se, metaphysics -- are produced by our dreams.

I'll read Sagan's "Demon Haunted World." For you, I'll suggest Jung's "Memories, Dreams, Reflections;" and Campbell's "The Hero with a Thousand Faces."

Thanks for your response.

First there is no such thing as a Christian in this country.If there were than there would be none of this passing judgment thrown around.Second the evil that religion has caused threw time is unspeakable.The shear amount of death do to a blind belief is amazing.It is the simple lack of faith in your self and others that has lead to a moral low ground not the word of a man in(or GOD)a book so full of wholes and excuses for ones actions.There can be no stopping the violence till man is wiped from the earth so that we may start again.Religion is a poor excuse for ignorance.It is also the excuse to put oneself on a pedestal and look down on others.

E. Favorite, if you want to know the real Christmas story it's at http://www.hoax-buster.org then click on page 2. All the elements are there and one additional scattered elsewhere in the that twe dollah bill Bible, the notion that baby Jesus fell out of the sky, "came directly from the father" and "is of one being with the father." I'm supposing there's writing to back that up in hieroglyphics, a cover story for where the baby came from. It came from the God of the father of Moses, the sun, angels delivered in to the most important woman alive at the time, the queen of Egypt.

The queen, Tiye had a baby not fathered by the king that shows up in the Bible or somewhere as Ishmael. That's me talking and not from the web site. She clearly had a problem explaining the baby which she left the palace to birth, (another fit with the Abraham-Hagar tale). Thus the notion of saying it came from a servant girl and was adopted by the "daughter of the king" one of the many title given queens fits Moses being found on the river in a basket, (Egyptian boats looked like baskets in pictures) scenario. Amenophis IV fits Moses better perhaps than Jesus but a 99% fit with both.

Hello Jonathan S.
You cannot prove I do not believe in God so don't insult me by saying I am an atheists. I have seen proof your Bible is as phony as your Dubya's WMDs in Iraq. Evangelicals who have a God as sorry or maybe more more punier and sissified than Allah with the love thy enemies garbage put him in the white house and brought us to the brink of disaster.

Case in point: the US Marines had Al Sadr surrouned and would have wiped him and his militia out but no. We gotta respect that sorry excuse of a God, Allah that brought us 9-11. Too bad old "high pockets" Puller or Patton wasn't in command of them else he would have been wiped and not now a killer of American GIs. Patton knew how to make a little mistake and blow a mosque to the moon where it clearly belongs. Real commanders in the field didn't want chaplins along and their troops stopping to pray. Ask Lt Pat Robertson about that. Can one suffer combat fatigue before the battle even begins. That's why.

One more time, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul if you haven't already sold your soul to the supernatural being Moses made the deal with better known as Devil.

Peter M:

"My feeling -- the whole Christmas Story thing (and much of the New Testament) is an invented fairy tale copied after pagan myths. If you believe it really happened, I submit that you are worshiping a cruel, unfeeling god."

From what I understand of Dr. Borg's knowledge and philosophy, I think he would agree with you.

B'gone, "pathetic, passe', fairy tale,... Clearly there is no doubt where you stand on any religious topics. Your strident atheism screams from these lists with sarcasm and mockery. You can surely sleep well at night fully confident that you have been as unkind and condescending as possible to all "religionists." The character of your life is very clear. No doubt in any one's mind that you thoroughly believe everything you have read on your hoax website. Keep it up, perhaps you will one day win awards for the intensity of your distaste for spiritual things. Ungodly, unspiritual, unkind and mocking. You have certainly carved out for yourself the most clear of perspectives. You consistently bring the character of this discussion to whole new levels of name-calling and anger. Brilliant and persistent in your accomplishment of your apparent goals. Please feel free to consider yourself effective in undermining any sense of dispassionate discourse between disagreeing people. Your reputation is set and clear. If only my wife was as understanding and patient as you...life would be bliss. Perhaps my children could be taught by you. What a wonderful world this would be... Perhaps, you might consider your tombstone...He Hated Religionists...God Rest His Soul.

Please forgive my sin of omission. God please Bless this intellectual servant of Your Word Dear God. Bless him and his in their search for Your Light of Truth. Grant them God the Blessings they bestow on others in Your Name ten-fold. I beseech this of You. amen

THE NOTION OF A “JUST WAR” HISTORICALLY HAS CONSISTENTLY BEEN SUBJECT TO MANIPULATION AND RATIONALIZATION.

an excellent point Mr. Borg, and resistance to your logic is futile. A third party of nations, say oh, i don't know the United Nations perhaps, should determine whether a war is just or not? "Just" a suggestion.

SO IT IS IN THE UNITED STATES IN OUR TIME. THE MAJORITY OF CHRISTIANS HAVE BEEN SUPPORTERS OF OUR WAR IN IRAQ. THE DEMOGRAPHIC GROUP WITH THE LARGEST PERCENTAGE OF SUPPORT FOR GOING TO WAR IN IRAQ IN EARLY 2003 WAS WHITE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS, 84% OF WHOM SUPPORTED IT. PERHAPS MANY OF THEM (AND PERHAPS OUR BORN-AGAIN PRESIDENT) WERE UNAWARE THAT CHRISTIAN TEACHING ABOUT “JUST WAR” EXPLICITLY PROHIBITS PREEMPTIVE WAR, THAT IS, STARTING A WAR. BUT MY HUNCH IS THAT EVEN IF THEY HAD BEEN AWARE OF THIS TEACHING, THEY WOULD HAVE FOUND REASONS FOR SETTING THE PROHIBITION ASIDE.

to that observation of fact i would ask that you reference the Downing Street Memos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo (is a very basic link. There are many, many more)and note that an action based upon a lie reflects back on the liar the first time. after that, say authorizing the escalation of said unjust-war-based-upon-a-known-lie would make the dupe complicit on the basis of sheer stupidity. to be a charitable christian on the matter. would you not agree Mr. Borg. Please do not resist my logic here sir I warn you. smile...captain piccard does not play with the borg for he knows what happens when one underestimates their determination to assimilate...i view the pseudo-cons as borg sir. no disrepect to you intended but the coincidence does serve to underline the futility of trying to judge a book by it's cover or a human by their skin color. in view of this fact, prime directive racially based relative initial humanity value protocol has been deleted. behavior valuation enhanced with increated acuity of motives behind behaviors. In cases where this can not be done all behavior must cease and desist so motives can be sorted out on the basis of evidence and testimony. in the absence of clear verdict, judicial discretion shall rule during fourth diamensional span. ultimate ruling to follow death. made it so...

IS OUR WAR IN IRAQ UNJUST? AS I SEE IT, YES. IT NOT ONLY VIOLATES JESUS’ TEACHING ABOUT NON-VIOLENT RESISTANCE TO EVIL, BUT ALSO THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN TEACHING ABOUT WHAT A “JUST WAR” IS.

AND WAS IT A MISTAKE? I KNOW FEW PEOPLE NOW WHO WOULD SAY IT WAS A GOOD IDEA. A GREATER FAMILIARITY WITH CHRISTIAN TEACHING ABOUT THE JUSTIFIABLE REASONS FOR GOING WAR MIGHT HAVE LED CHRISTIANS TO SAY, “THIS WAR IS WRONG.”

THERE IS VIRTUE IN SEEING “JUST WAR” AS THE RARE EXCEPTION RATHER THAN SEEING IT AS NORMAL, WITH NON-VIOLENCE AS THE EXCEPTION. ESPECIALLY FOR AMERICAN CHRISTIANS WHO ARE CITIZENS OF THE EMPIRE OF OUR TIME, IT IS CRUCIAL TO RECOVER THE EARLY CHRISTIAN EMPHASIS UPON NON-VIOLENCE. IMPERIAL VIOLENCE IS ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG. AND PERHAPS THE WORD “ALMOST” SHOULD BE OMITTED.

most of your posting that i agree with i have not reproduced here. the above merits repeating for emphasis imho. thank you!

a just empire rules, it does not dominate. i, for one, do not like the terminology of empire. however, i invite you to review the following link http://www.heartland.it/geopolitics_george_w_bush_dream.html
Heartland, Eurasian review of geopolitics for a transcendential modulation of the word empire. It will also give deeper understanding of how badly we have overestimated ourselves while underestimating our allies. this country is blessed beyond our collective comprehension. we flaunt our childish stupidity in publications such as The Washington Post. entertainment we are.

POSTED BY MARCUS BORG ON JANUARY 13, 2007 4:04 PM
respectfully submitted by Vulcan_7 for your consideration on this day Sunday January 14th, 2007 20:22

Is that BGone talking or Canyon Shearer? Thank you for calling me stupid. I personally prefer the phrase a moronic, idiotic, delusional philistine.

You losing it? I pushed a button somewhere? This is fun. A true red, white and blue fellow. I never doubted your patriotism to die for your country :) The Iraqis and Aghans are dying for theirs.

I wish you have access to news of what the US troops are really doing in Iraq. Beats the "barbaric Muslim atrocities" you see over and over again in your Fox TV. What you heard and see on the news is only the tip of the iceberg of the behavior of US troops on the ground.

My Middle Eastern friends have a saying, a cliche now : "One American life is worth 200 Arab lives"
No Muslim nation said the invasion of Afghanistan was not justified. Iraq was, and is not justified.

And you can discuss the Quran all you want as a hoax,or Prophet Muhammad is the devil or pedophile. It won't matter. Heard it all before and worst than you can come up with here or anywhere:) So, go on, and best of luck my friend, the Hoaxbuster.

By the way, since God can't be found on earth as a tangible being, how will it be possible for God to take a physical licking by Democrats? You will have to kill us all then, for God is in our minds.

And Marine Corps Gazette? The marines are trained killers, and got paid for it too.

This is fun - mudslinging. And may God be with you :) I will leave you to vent and rant ad neuseum and read more thoughtful postings.

Michael Karg:

I shall look at Jung upon your recommendation.

I was just reading Carl Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" and he commented as to how science was making ghosts and witches passe, and people were substituting UFOs and aliens in modern culture.

Pardon me - I meant Hezbollah in my previous post. Hamas was encouraged to develop by Israel as a couterweight to PLO.

Your comment is well taken:

"Especially for American Christians who are citizens of the empire of our time, it is crucial to recover the early Christian emphasis upon non-violence. Imperial violence is almost always wrong. And perhaps the word “almost” should be omitted."

Are you now calling for the impeachment of President Bush for "crimes and misdomeanors", or not?

Now is the time to express your opinion on this matter, please do so with your senator and representative.

Thank you.

BGONE, very moving. You should read up more on Middle East politics and realities, not them books by Bernard Lewis though. If the western world vilified a writer on the Middle East, say Edward Said, chances are, what he wrote about is closer to what the Middle Easterners thinks and feel.

I would not recommend you to read too much of the writings of Robert Spenser, Daniel Pipes, Ann Coulter, American Enterprise Institute, Heritage Foundation etc. You can read them for justification of the "otherness" of the Middle Easterners/Islam/Muslim and makes it perfectly all right to wage war against them.

Come on BGONE, you are a Crusader for the truth. I am a Jihadist for the truth. And, as the CIA motto states - the truth will set you free.

They are two sides to every issues. On Lebanon, on Palestine, on Iran, on Iraq, on Afghanistan, and now on Somalia.

I would not characterized some statements as a right to be "undiplomtic" or an exercise of "freedom of speech". Too many times, when a westerner is questioned on an spurious remark, he invokes "freedom of speech" as a full stop for clarifying what he said and meant.

By the way, Hamas is born after the first Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Look up the history of Hamas. And what they do, and why they shell back at Israel. They are pious Muslims, and they only attack when provoked. Guess who was provoking, and who whine to the whole world when Hamas hit back.

Peter M:
Isn't there something terribly wrong with that story? A STAR IN THE EAST? Where did the maji, (literally magicians) come from?

They came from the east of Bethlehem. The star they followed was east of them. They must have gone in the opposite direction to Bethlehem unless they came from the west of Bethlehem. There's a little Orient west of Behtlehem before Africa begins but not much. Isn't Bethlehem in the Orient? What an identifier, Oriental maji.

Will the Biblical rewriters never get finished? Just as soon as the fact the Bible is a proved hoax becomes common knowledge and then their work is finished.

There are accounts of early theologians agruing over how many maji there was altogether. I counted a lot more than three in the picture at http://www.hoax-buster.org Why did the Vatican send vandals to destroy more of Akhetaten after that picture was brought to Europe by French scholars, Napaleon era?

Peter M, I know you were writing to "anon," but your post ends with something interesting to me. You find "...the whole Christmas Story thing" and much else, "...copied after pagan myths." Well, right on, and read on, my friend. All is a copy of everything from the beginning of consciousness. Soon, if you continue an investigation into such things, you will find that the pagans were copying those before them. Finally, if you believe the anthropologists working amongst the few stone age tribes still around, you will learn that those people had (and still have) the same life/death/phenomenom questions and answers that all religionists have today. You will read of their snake in the garden, virgin birth, a sort of Eucharist meal they enjoyed, that sort of thing. And then, perhaps, you may discover C. G. Jung's, and others since, take on it all. Very interesting.

BA'AL, it's not as simple as people living by the constitution being picked up by the police and all those unconstitutional things being done to them. The ones concerned are being treated better than if they had been captured by their local enemies. How many would still have their heads if caught by Muslims enemies?

When Islam embraces the constitution as the super law complaints will be in order and heard. Until then think what happened and factor that in. They were picked up in a combat zone and lucky they weren't met by Iwo Jima Marines who's saying was, "when we get finsihed Japanese will only be spoken in hell."

It'd be awfully nice for them to have a double standard, fight by their rules and lose by the constitution. When they decided to fight they gave up all rights except one, be killed. Our soldiers give up their constitutional rights to be soldiers. Give it up. It's a losing battle unless you want to convince Islamic states to adopt the constitution. The Japanese did and their prisoners were set free. Before that happened they were not, had zero rights. Those who don't like the rules of war shouldn't make war.

When the misslies left Lebanon and fell on Israel Lebanon effectively declared war on Israel. That means Israel had the right to turn the whole country into a heap of rubble. Lebanon is responsible for jihaddist groups within their borders, not Israel. Israel is very nice to notice it wasn't Lebanon per say. Again, be thankful for those who show restraint and not so quick to declare them Villions else you'll have all those nice people who now cause strip searches before getting on an airplane to run your life.

Wrongs of the past cannot be fixed with more wrongs in the present. We have to pick the football up where it was fumbled, can't ever go back and unfumble it.

I'm not a diplomat. I don't have to be nice and I enjoy exercising my constitutional right to free speech. Sometimes, most often I notice the truth that hurts real bad. Gitmo, Lebanon are a couple of them. I say laugh at it. You'll live longer for laughter is good for you, up tight is not.

Fact: The U.S. used to be what Anonymous asserts -- but now imprisons people without the right to confront their accusers, representation, access to the evidence against them, or to even know the reason they are being held. The US also tortures these people. I never thought I would see it come to this. I am sure people like Anonymous would invite us to cheer louder over these developments.

To anon:

I'm surprised you don't know your gospels, and the cruelties in them.

The Magi were following a miraculous star, right? But they had to stop and ask for directions, which led them to Herod.

A just god would have guided them straight to Bethlehem.

Here's what happened, in more detail, according to Matthew, Chapter 2:

"According to Matthew, when the Magi (popularly known as the "Three Wise Men") sought out the birth of Jesus, they first visited Herod the Great to ask if he knew the correct location. On hearing the Magi ask for He that is born King of the Jews, Herod, the Roman client king in Judea, feeling that his throne was in jeopardy, asked the Magi to find the child and return to tell him so that he may worship him, with the hidden intention of killing the identified child immediately. When the Magi, warned in dreams of the king's true intentions, returned home by a different route to avoid being forced to betray the child, Herod ordered the slaughter of all male children who were two years old and under. Fortunately for them, according to Matthew, Joseph, Mary and Jesus had fled to Egypt after they had been warned by an angel."

The Magi came because they saw a star in the east: "We saw his star in the east[b] and have come to worship him." Matt. 2:1

They picked up the star a second time: "After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east[e] went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed." Matthew 2:9-10. (Where did the star disappear to after they first saw it?)

So, Joseph was warned about Herod by an angel: "When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt."

And the Wise Men got a warning: "And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route."

But not only is the god of Matthew's gospel a lousy miracle maker (the star went out?) but he saw fit only to warn the three rich kings and Joseph, leaving the families of the slaughtered children to suffer.

My feeling -- the whole Christmas Story thing (and much of the New Testament) is an invented fairy tale copied after pagan myths. If you believe it really happened, I submit that you are worshiping a cruel, unfeeling god.

Fact: The U.S. endures as the leading beacon of freedom.

Depraved Chomskyite idiocy: All contrary assertions.

An anonymous guy above says my comment is an "applingly ignorant lunatic Chomskyite statement." My comment was this:

"The amount of sadness, death, and destruction caused by the U.S. government around the world exceeds that of any country or group."

To refute my point, Mr. Anonymous cites the historical examples of... "Hitler. Stalin. Mao. Pol Pot. Amin. Saddam. Rwanda. Darfur. Etc. Etc. Etc."

First, please note that the word "exceeds" is present tense, not past tense. In other words, I never said the U.S. caused more death and destruction than any country or group in history. They are simply tops right now.

Second, even if we look at the examples that Mr. Anonymous cites, the U.S. still tops most of them, with the exceptions of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. We beat the examples of Pol Pot, Amin, Saddam, Rwanda, and Darfur handily.

Note the absense of any hint of numbers of argument in the anonymous post. I understand how angering it must be to be brought up believing the U.S. is a beacon of freedom, only to be told that this government is the exact opposite in its role around the world. But the facts are the facts.

We must call out to our enemies, "I love you" before we shoot them. The truly righteous will add, "this is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you." Has something to do with which end of the gun they put to their shoulders before firing it.

I've seen some bad shots in my time but that's rediculous, a man tried to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head and missed.

Peter M says, "Think of how Christians announced the birth of Jesus -- with Herod's slaughter of children."

What are you talking about?!!

Anyway, love those who hate you, turn the other cheek, forgive seventy times seven times — pretty nonviolent teaching for that stage of human development (or our own).

Ashley:

I like orange cream flavor myself. You rock, exceedingly.

The idea that Christians invented non-violence is fatuous. Think of how Christians announced the birth of Jesus -- with Herod's slaughter of children. And the supreme act of sacrifice for Christianity was a father willingly letting his son be killed?

Pathetic religion.

Ashley,

The damage we inflicted on Germany was far worse they anything they did to the United States. Many radical Islamic nations have attacked American property and have declared war against us, yet we do nothing but refer it to the United Nations. Again, by the standards used by many in the above referenced blogs, we never would have fought Germany.

I do not believe that we must await until we are attacked to defend outselves. Who wants to line up to be the first victim? Ashley, I sincerely hope it is not you or someone you love.

Kevin

My experience withh evangelical Christians is that their beliefs and behaviors bear little resemblance to any of Christ's values.

For the benefit of all let us note that experts may, can and do quote themselves in courts of law and those quotes are accepted by the courts as absolute truths.

I'm not an atheists of course but if I was then I could prove there is no God by awarding my self a PhD in atheology then suing myself and being my own witness. Only atheists have high enough morals to not do that, the standard proof there is a God.

Amen.

TKH
Are you saying Dr Borg coppied large parts of his enlightened essay or am I seeing dubble you?

Education is the process of learning what others already know. Demonstrating education is quoting other educated ones like one's self. Dr Borg repeats the knowledge of others for just cause, education, knowing all the OLD magic words and phrases.

Dr Bord said that when Jesus gets here peace will be the only just cause. Just you wait and see. Now all we need decide is who shall run the kingcom of Jesus while we wait. Will the highest religious authority there is please stand up.

God bless the oil men and screw everyone else.
That's their religion.

12 million illegal alien across our southern boarder but we are fighting "them" and keeping america safe by fighting for OIL in Iraq so the oil men can have their Billions.

Texans are as Texans do.

Anonymous:
Over throw of democracially elected government of Iran, Tonkin Gulf Lying Resolution, Agent Orange Poisioning of Viet Nam's Delta, Syphillis Test on Black Prisoner, Illegal Inter-racial marriage laws of the South, KKK, CIA/Nazi collaboration after WWII, LSD experiments on unsuspecting participants, ...................Duda

Neo, just say no to Chomskyite claptrap.

Anonymous:
The US Government is a 1000 lb gorilla and does as it pleases at home and abroad. Our men are trigger happy in Iraq because they never know who the enemy is. Torture Prisons, Deadly Interrigations, Murders, Rapes, families killed for driving too close to american vehicle. - Pol Pot or Bush/Cheney?

Miggsathon: "The amount of sadness, death, and destruction caused by the U.S. government around the world exceeds that of any country or group."

This kind of appallingly ignorant lunatic Chomskyite statement MUST NOT go unchallenged.

Hitler. Stalin. Mao. Pol Pot. Amin. Saddam. Rwanda. Darfur. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Truth,

I have often felt a tugging on my heart at night, and have found Maalox to be an extremely effective remedy. I particularly like the Mint flavor. Try it sometime. Two out of three people prefer Maalox to reciting well-known Psalms. I heard they did a study or something.

Kevin,

I know you're trying to use the word "preemptive" referring to the invasion of North Africa in an attempt to make our preemptive attack on Iraq seem less extraordinary, but the word doesn't apply. Germany declared war on the United States before we declared war on them, and German submarines began sinking American vessels months before the invasion began.

attention to "bgone" please dont make the mistake of letting the so called "men of God" distract u from having a relationship with God Himself. He is real. And the Bible, though misused by men, is truth. Stop ignoring that tugging on your heart that u feel at night before u sleep. That is the Lord. You have a gift, and that which the enemy has been using for evil, God is going to use for good. You will never be the same. I dare you, with all of your "intellectual rhetoric" to give HIM a chance>

Mr. Reiss:

I respect your service to our country many years ago. Still, I believe the mindset that you are taking to this debate is precisely the kind of foggy thinking that allows those in power to bamboozle the public. Yes, we were attacked on 9/11: by people who were not Iraqi and were not helped by the Iraqi government. You are incorrect, and even a cursory reading of the news over the last few years would reveal as much.

Either way, the amount of civilian damage we have inflicted on the Iraqi population is far, far worse than anything we endured. The only systematic estimates of the total death tolls suggest that over 600,000 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the U.S. invasion. Read that number again: over 600,000.

Again: over 600,000.

The amount of sadness, death, and destruction caused by the U.S. government around the world exceeds that of any country or group. We have done it time and again -- 2 million civilians killed in Vietnam; hundreds of thousands in the Philipines, hundreds of thousands in Turkey (for which we knowingly provided the arms), hundreds of thousands in East Timor (arms again), tens of thousands in tiny Nicaragua...the list just goes on and on.

I know how much you sacrificed and risked in the name of this government, so I understand how enraged it must make you feel when people make the kinds of accusations I'm making. But it is the truth.

By Mr. Reiss' logic, after Pearl Harbor we should have attacked China.

A little reminder of recent history...

Q (March 13, 2002): Mr. President, in your speeches now you rarely talk or mention Osama bin Laden. Why is that? . . .

Bush: So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him , Kelly, to be honest with you.

Dr Borg:
The greatest violence ever conceived, hell is the foundation of christian faith. Until that threat is lifted then Christians will continue to be violent. And then there is the concept of forgivness for one's sins of which several are violent.

Is there forgivness for murder? Is there a third party that says a sorry killer can go to an eternity of uforic bliss while the victim is further victimized by being thrown onto the grill at the perpetual people roast of hell? Dream on.

The Bible is a piece of literary trash, a now proved hoax calculated to cause people to pay higher taxes disguised as tithes, renderings to God, by the Roman emperor Constantine.

Teaching theology has a lot in common with teaching astrology. There was a time when astrologers were held in the same high esteem as theologians. There was a time. It's dead and gone like the Bilbe is the absolute word of God.

I know the pay checks of many depend on the Bible. I feel their pain and I feel the pain of all throughout history who have suffered because of how God's representatives interpreted God's word, the Bible to benefit them. It's Devil, not God that made them do that, burn people at the stake, inquisitions, violence beyond imagination. The pope holds up a gold chalice made from gold that was robbed from native Americans, millions murdered taking it from them. I feel for them but real Americans will have a hard time following them once they know the truth. Think religion like you think astrology from now on. It's just a matter of time until the truth is known by all.

Violence has never been quelled by religion. It won't start now. There's no such thing as just aggression. People do have the right to defend themselves and Americans have a good record for doing that. Iraq is aggression disguised as a preemptive strike against an enemy about to strike us. Now we know better. Don't we?

Jim Reiss,

I honor and respect your service and deeply regret your disability. But, as President Bush himself has said, Saddam and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

Our attack on Iraq therefore had no justification. Our invasion of Afghanistan was entirely justified, and it's a criminal shame that we have depleted our resources there to pursue the folly of war in Iraq.

Our success in Afghanistan is now imperiled because of this neglect.

This view of war only on self defense turns a blind eye to the poor innocents who must die as our enemy aims their guns in our direction. Apply this rule to WWII. We were never attacked by Germany but expended tens of thousands of lives to ensure their defeat. Without our preemptive strike against Germany in North Africa, the entire Jewish faith would have been destroyed. Perhaps this is fine with Prof. Borg and many others, but it is very un-Christian to me and my maker.
Kevin

I consider myself an evangelical Christian, with moderate views on abortion and capital punishment. I am a 100% disabled vet from WWII, having spent time as a P.O.W. in Germany. I fight when attacked!!! We were certainly attacked on 9/11, and our government moved swiftly and decisively choosing two terrorist "proven" grounds to counterattack. THIS IS JUSTIFIABLE WAR. Just because we are sustaining great loss on both battlefields must not diminish our resolve to remove the terrorist threat from the world scene. Spain caved in first, next will be France, and then ...US...come on. PATRICK HENRY, WHERE ARE YOU WHEN WE NEED YOU????

I have, firstly a clarification, and secondly an exception to the author's writing:

The concept of a 'just war' is not a CHRISTIAN matter. It has been a factor inthe Western Christian tradition, but that is cultural. It is not a religious matter. The only justification for war (violence, as a matter of fact) is self-defense (none of that preemptive/preventive nonsense).

I object to the use of the term 'Christian' by the author. Actually the rteligious right-wing in the US has high-jacked the term 'Christian' to describe just themselves. That is not only wrong, but highly arrogant of themselves. The fact is that MOST American Christians fall outside the author's premise.

He should have addressed himslef to the religious right-wing in the US.

Having said all that, the ONLY justification for war is self-defense. Let me clarify: Attacking Afghanistan was justified; attacking Iraq was not.

"Insofar as men are sinful, the threat of war hangs over them, and hang over them it will until the return of Christ. But insofar as men vanquish sin by a union of love, they will vanquish violence as well and make these words come true: 'They shall turn their swords into plough-shares, and their spears into sickles. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more' (Isaias 2:4)." [Gaudium et spes (GS), #78, 2d Vatican Council, Roman Catholic Church]

"...As long as the danger of war remains and there is no competent and sufficiently powerful authority at the international level, governments cannot be denied the right to legitimate defense once every means of peaceful settlement has been exhausted....But it is one thing to undertake military action for the just defense of the people, and something else again to seek the subjugation of other nations. Nor, by the same token, does the mere fact that war has unhappily begun mean that all is fair between the warring parties." [GS, #79]

"It is our clear duty, therefore, to strain every muscle in working for the time when all war can be completely outlawed by international consent. ...Since peace must be born of mutual trust between nations and not be imposed on them through a fear of the available weapons, everyone must labor to put an end at last to the arms race, and to make a true beginning of disarmament, not unilaterally indeed, but proceeding at an equal pace according to agreement, and backed up by true and workable safeguards." [GS, #81]

Professor Borg hits the nail right on the head in everything he says, but especially the part about how Bush and his supporters were going to have their war in Iraq not matter what their understanding of the teaching of Jesus. After all, they ignored all of the intelligence that didn't support their war plans, and the rationale for their actions continues to change.

Is violence ever justified?
As a christian, as a physician. as a human being interconnected with every sentient being, my answer is an emphatic, NO!!!!

Thank you sir. Finally an irrational believer and a rational non-beliver readily agree. We both apparently share that innate sense of human "morality" (ethics) which is encoded in our dna and both predates and transcends all religious belief.

There are just wars, but this isn't one of them. This is a war crime.