All Comments (124)

I AM A CHRISTIAN FIRST. I THANK GOD FOR PASTORS LIKE LYLE DUKES. HE IS A VERY INTELLIGENT AND SINCERE PASTOR. WE NEED TO HEAR MORE OF HIS IDEA AND THOUGHTS. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK.

Pastor Dukes, you keep on doing what you do! You are a profound, intelligent man whose life is more than just words on a web page. You words bring life and it all comes from God and the life-saving power of Christ. Because of your love and spirit of servitude, you touch more than the lives of those in your congregation--you impact the world through your teaching, preaching, and, most importantly, your lifestyle. Because of your righteous walk, there are those standing in the wings who are waiting to be dispatched with words that will try to tear you down. They offer nothing but hate, discouragement, and bitterness not realizing they are just reflecting their own broken souls. Yet you, and other righteous men and women of God continue to pray for such as these not counting the hurt that people try to bring your way. Your seeds of love will not return void. Thank you for your continuing to stand in spite of opposition!

"In my opinion, denying the existence of God is much like getting up every day and denying that there will be a tomorrow, “I have never seen it – so I won’t believe in it.”"

Ha! *Files in record of silly theist comments*

What a characteristically ignorant statement. I am an atheist myself, and I have never met another atheist who has this attitude to their disbelief.

I do not understand the problem atheists have with faith, particularly others' faith. Everyone has faith in something. And everyone has a belief system. As I get out of bed in the morning, I have the faith and belief that the floor will be there and the rest of my house is in tact. I do not wake up and ask for proof that my car is in the garage before I get ready for work and go out to get into it.
My faith is built on the way God has manifested himself in my life. The evidence of God's existence is not external but internal. Perhaps atheists have not recognized God's hand in their lives. It is a wonderful experience and until they have it, they will not understand it. Faith is anything but logical. And no one will or should be expected to understand the tenets and power of faith in God without a relationship with God. So I understand fully what the atheist feels because until I had a relationship with God, based on His divine presence in my life, I really doubted that God was real and thought of him as some kind of thing people needed to beat other people with.
One more thing. In general, we have faith in our parents (who, by the way, did not create us), in doctors (who are just practicing medicine). And it is interesting that many people, Christians and atheists, will allow a physician to cut them open but never take time to verify their physicians' degrees, g.p.a.'s and criminal background. That is great faith!

Yet, when it comes to God, there is this great cloud of suspicion, particularly when it comes to ministers of the Gospel.

Some people read books which advance the atheist position (or lack thereof, with all due respect). A belief system is thereby carved. To a certain degree, we are a product of what we sense and internalize. I sense the presence of God. Atheists do not. No argument can make an atheist know or sense what a christian senses in the Holy Spirit. Only the power of God is capable of changing the perspective of the atheist. And if He wills it to be so, He is powerful enough to do it. One thing is for sure. We will all know the truth at the appointed time.

I do not understand the problem atheists have with faith, particularly others' faith. Everyone has faith in something. And everyone has a belief system. As I get out of bed in the morning, I have the faith and belief that the floor will be there and the rest of my house is in tact. I do not wake up and ask for proof that my car is in the garage before I get ready for work and go out to get into it.
My faith is built on the way God has manifested himself in my life. The evidence of God's existence is not external but internal. Perhaps atheists have not recognized God's hand in their lives. It is a wonderful experience and until they have it, they will not understand it. Faith is anything but logical. And no one will or should be expected to understand the tenets and power of faith in God without a relationship with God. So I understand fully what the atheist feels because until I had a relationship with God, based on His divine presence in my life, I really doubted that God was real and thought of him as some kind of thing people needed to beat other people with.
One more thing. In general, we have faith in our parents (who, by the way, did not create us), in doctors (who are just practicing medicine). And it is interesting that many people, Christians and atheists, will allow a physician to cut them open but never take time to verify their physicians' degrees, g.p.a.'s and criminal background. That is great faith!

Yet, when it comes to God, there is this great cloud of suspicion, particularly when it comes to ministers of the Gospel.

Some people read books which advance the atheist position (or lack thereof, with all due respect). A belief system is thereby carved. To a certain degree, we are a product of what we sense and internalize. I sense the presence of God. Atheists do not. No argument can make an atheist know or sense what a christian senses in the Holy Spirit. Only the power of God is capable of changing the perspective of the atheist. And if He wills it to be so, He is powerful enough to do it. One thing is for sure. We will all know the truth at the appointed time.

I watch and listen to you and Deborah on Sunday morning's now you are not there. What happened?. Are you on another channel or are you on TVOne at another time. Please let me know. You and deborah have helped me through this year of great turmoil. I go to church, sometimes I can't make it. I enjoyed your preaching and teaching. Thanks gloria

How could any one deny the existence of God? Take a look around and see the Earth and other planets. How did it all get here?

Some say the "Big Bang" Theory but that makes no sense at all. Some say evolution was the starting point for mankind. Nonsense!

There must be a God because we would not be existing: all the anmials, plants, and humans.

Pastor Dukes,

Your insight is sound. We are designed to believe in something. Unfortunately people are so stuck on trying to make thier point in this forum that they're missing the message you're communicating.

Faith is very powerful. I agree that denying the existence of God is foolish. Creation is just one of the evidences that He is real. I hope that people's eyes will be open to the truth of God and salvation that comes through His son Jesus.

Be encouraged and continue to carryout the good work you're doing for Him.

Please those that havent ever attended Harvest lifechangers , you must attend, seeing is beleiving,

Most atheist and/or agnostic "say" they don't believe in God. So therefore, they should not believe in heaven or hell. But if you tell them that "all and sinned and come short of the glory of God"... and without repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Savior, they are doomed for hell... they will argue with you that they are not going to hell. But why do they need to argue since they don't believe in God. This is another reason that there are no atheist and/or agnostic people. You don't need to defend something you don't believe.

Enjoyed your insight...

Pastor Dukes,

It is a privilege and an honor to read your comments. We thank God, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, for using you as His vessel for "such a time as this."

The intensity of the posts I read thus far has been so great I had to check the "About On Faith" link to reconnect with this site's purpose.

"At The Washington Post and Newsweek, we believe the first step is conversation-intelligent, informed, eclectic, respectful conversation-among specialists and generalists who devote a good part of their lives to understanding and delineating religion's influence on the life of the world."

"We think that the online world, with its limitless space, offers us a unique opportunity to carry on a fruitful, intriguing, and above all constructive conversation about the things that matter most."

I leave it to the readers to figure out if the following observation applies to you or not:

There is nothing scientific, logical or intellectual about destructive criticism. Your words felt violent - inflicting more damage on an already tumultuous topic. You do your position more harm than good with such angry, cutting critique. I hear hate in your words not stimulating debate, enlightenment or appreciation for alternative views. I believe you close the gate on an opportunity to positively engage with people who do care to understand and are not looking to see "put downs" - on the panelist or individuals submitting posts.

To Pastor Dukes - I appreciate you for your faith and courage in sharing your views. May you and your church continue to be a pillar in your community and the world beyond.

Grace and Peace

Anonymous,
My response: The "claims that the Bible and Christians are being persecuted" and NOT my own. By going to the website I posted earlier one can see for themselves as well as the other examples I posted. These things are STILL going on today as they were back in the days of the Bible! As for people "preaching" to my children, I believe education begins at home with the parents and not afterwards. Parents need to take an active role in educating their children and not simply send them to school and let the teachers do that for them. I've seen many a Christian family take their kids out of the traditional school system and home-school them so that they can show them why they believe what they do as a family. It also allows them to spend more TIME with their children. "Children use four letters to spell love, T-I-M-E", - Max Lucado.

People of different faiths, do come into our community, i.e. Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses as they do other communities. When these men and women knock on doors, alot of people verbally abuse these people and slam the door in their faces and somehow I don't believe its because they are not of their "religion". I sincerely doubt that is the reason! I believe people don't want to hear about anything that doesn't fit into their little "Box-Of-Comfort-and-Familiar-In-Their-Life" and continue to live as they want - risk free - because they are afraid of change..! I usually take the time to at least listen to what these people have to say and then politely refuse their literature and let them know what I believe and why, which usually involves some good dialog between two human beings! There's 1 Corinthians 13 in action as well as Matthew 7:12, which is something both Christians and unbelievers have heard time and time again and has been posted on this website!

Being part of my church's evangelist team, I've had people say, "No thanks" to prayer and/or accepting Christ as their Savior but they've always taken the food and/or juice and/or clothing we've provided as well as appreciating the fact that we were THERE and showed that we CARED..! 1 Corinthians 13, that I posted earlier illustrates that and also shows that one should be doing this for the right motivation which is loving others and not thinking about oneself, as it is not about you...!

Don't Condemn Others. Matthew 7:1-6 (NLT) Jesus speaking, "Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use in judging others, it will be used to measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speck in your friend's eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, 'Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye.' when you can't see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log from your own eye, then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye. Don't give what is holy to unholy people. Don't give pearls to swine?" Looking at this Scripture in its entirety, I fail to see how a missionary nor anyone wanting to help someone because they care about them, illustrates your point. Missionaries and/or evangelists are not condemning anyone, in fact further reading in Matthew shows this, Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) Jesus speaking, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Later in Mark 12:29-31 (NKJV) Jesus speaking, "The most important commandment is this: ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Most missionaries and/or evangelists are very enthusiastic about their faith and what its meant to their lives and want to share it with others as they feel that same can happen for them yet somehow that's wrong, but its ok to have that same enthusiasm for a sports team(s)...! We're not talking about a zealot here either..!

Martyrs: Revelations 7:9-11
1. One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.

Based on all of these things it is "inevitable" that God will achieve the results He wants to achieve His Divine Plan and get all of the Glory and Honor..!

You have a FANTASTIC day!

Lajon,

All you have done there is post a whole series of anecdotes and some passages from the bible. My point was in relation to your claims that the bible and christians were being repressed, and all I asked was is it any wonder when missionaries go into an area which is not predominantly of your religion and as far as the rest of the society there, condemning their childrens' souls to eternal damnation.

Is that not the response *you* would take if Muslims came to your community and started preaching to your children? Or how about Wiccan or Satanism? Can you honestly say that you would have a totally passive reaction and not challenge them? What about people around you who may not be so reasonable?

Matthew 7:5 - Something about a beam and eyes?...

And before you think I missed your point about you wanting to do these things because you care about the immortal souls of unbelievers, I understood fully what you were getting at, but don't for a moment think you can get away with calling the inevitable results persecution without someone such as me questioning it.

Have a nice day.

Andrew,
I did in fact respond to what you posted earlier but haven't seen it appear here and I waited a couple of days prior to trying again. Hopefully, this isn't a double-post.

quoth Andrew: But on a side note - do these missionaries not understand that they are going to be provoking the deeply held religious beliefs of other cultures? I'm not trying to infer that the reaction is justified - but it is certainly not unexpected. You think you have the "Truth" and they think they have the "Truth". It is no wonder there is conflict when people think their souls are the gambling chips.

My response: Are you saying because of the "risks" involved that these missionaries shouldn't go..? Are you saying there is no "Truth" in either case..? Do you believe that we can only know what is proven by science, even though science can't teach that science is the only source of truth. Let's go back and look at "risks" because that and fear are what keep most people in the own little comfort box of Familiar. Wow, the USA Today, Thursday, January 4, 2007 - Wesley Autrey jumped INTO the path of a subway train to save the life of a STRANGER. Autrey had to LEAVE his two daughters, ages 4 and 6, on the platform. It was that, he said, or have the girls see a man run over by a subway train. "It ain't about being a hero, it was just BEING THERE AND HELPING THAT PERSON. That's all I did." THAT my friend, is a POWERFUL statement! He didn't think of himself but of a COMPLETE STRANGER and how if he didn't act, the effect it would have on his daughters..! I'm sure he was not the only person on that subway platform either...! Let's look at another example and this quote: "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." – Jim Elliot. In January 1956, a tragic story flooded headlines around the world. Five men, Nate Saint, Roger Youderian, Ed McCully, Pete Fleming, and Jim Elliot spurred by a passion to share the good news of Jesus Christ, ventured deep into the jungles of Ecuador. Their goal: to make contact with an ISOLATED tribe whose previous response to the outside world had been to attack all strangers. These men WERE AWARE that the first missionary to have entered Auca territory -- a Jesuit priest, Pedro Suarez -- had been murdered by spears in an isolated station near the confluence of the Napo and Curaray. That was 1667. In, 1956 a man named Mincaye, a member of the Waodoni people of Ecuador, formerly known as the Aucas, along with five other men of his tribe acting in fear, ignorance, and violent anger attacked and speared to death five men who had mysteriously dropped from the sky into their jungle. Through God's miraculous grace and faithful "God Followers". Mincaye would later come to understand that these men had come not to bring harm but the ultimate "message of peace". Mincaye now knows that peace comes through a relationship with the "Man Maker" (God). This is illustrated in the Scriptures, John 15:13-17 (NLT) - Jesus speaking, "And here is how to measure it - the greatest love is shown when people lay down their lives for their friends. You are my friends if you obey me. I no longer call you servants, because a master doesn't confide in his servants. Now you are my friends, since I have told you everything the Father told me. You didn't choose me. I choose you. I appointed you to go and produce fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask for, using my name. I command you to love each other." Also, in John 10:11 (NLT) Jesus speaking, "I am the good shepard. The good shepard lays down his life for the sheep." Let's look at this story in a Chungkai camp. One evening after a work detail, a Japanese guard announced that a shovel was missing. The officer kept the Allies in formation, insisting that someone has stolen it. Screaming in broken English, he demanded that the guilty man step forward. He shouldered his rifle, ready to kill one prisoner at a time until a confession was made. A Scottish soldier broke ranks, stood stiffly at attention, and said, "I did it." The officer unleashed his anger and beat the man to death. When the guard was finally exhausted, the prisoners picked up the man's body and their tools and returned to camp. Only then were the shovels recounted. The Japanese soldier had made a mistake. No shovel was missing after all. Who does that? What kind of person would take the blame for something he didn't do? When you find the adjective, attach it to Jesus. Isaiah 53:6 (NLT) emphasis mine: ALL of us have strayed away like sheep. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid ON HIM the guilt and sins of us all. Risks and Fear..! I talk to people each and everyday (especially at this time of year) who say they want to make changes but in the end do nothing! In each of the above examples, those individuals KNEW the risks and yet they still ACTED despite having that knowledge for the betterment of others! Christians worldwide are encountering threats, angry mobs, abuse and destruction of property for their witness. Christians worldwide are being harassed, imprisoned, killed or deprived of possession of liberties because of their witness, such as this example, on April 20, 1999, Cassie Bernall, a junior at Columbine High in Littleton, Colorado, was a typical teenager having a typical day; then a classmate trained a gun on her and asked if she believed in God. She said "Yes". She was willing to die, instead of changing her beliefs. Another quote I'd like to share is this: “Some Christians haven’t even attempted to think about whether or not they would die for Jesus because they haven’t really been living for Him” – dc Talk. I am willing to die for mine as I know I will be with Him for all Eternity...!

Again, Scripture for all of this:
*The Great Commandment Mark 12:30-31 (NKJV) And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

*The Great Commission Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

1 Corinthians 13 – Love is the Greatest
1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didn’t love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing. 3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didn’t love others, I would have gained nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. 6 It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.
8 Prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will become useless. But love will last forever! 9 Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! 10 But when full understanding comes, these partial things will become useless.
11 When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12 Now we see things imperfectly as in a cloudy mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
13 Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.

Have a nice day!

Hi again,

Lajon Webb: The Holy Bible and its message IS being banned in many countries of the world and many are being harassed, imprisoned, killed or deprived of possessions or liberties because of their witness. Christians in some of these countries are encountering threats, angry mobs, abuse and destruction of property for their witness as well. A website that you may or may not want to check out is The Voice of the Martyrs - http://www.thevoiceofthemartyrs.org/

Is this that "gentle" society you spoke of earlier?

My response: Religion (or any doctrine for that matter) can be a terrible thing when it leads to intolerance such as that. My point however was not in regards to regions where Christianity is not extant (or is in the minority), but rather in terms of our experiences in the west. But on a side note - do these missionaries not understand that they are going to be provoking the deeply held religious beliefs of other cultures? I'm not trying to infer that the reaction is justified - but it is certainly not unexpected. You think you have the "Truth" and they think they have the "Truth". It is no wonder there is conflict when people think their souls are the gambling chips.

________________________

Lajon Webb: ... What do you perceive as a "True Christian"...?

My response: Anyone who believes in the Triune and that Jesus died to redeem their sins is a Christian. The phrase "True Christian" is not one that I came up with but it is what I have seen one sect claim over another sect within Christianity. For instance, are Catholics "True Christians" or not? Mormons? Amish? Are Sunni Muslims true Muslims or are Shi'a Muslims true Muslims? All believe in core matters and doctrine, but disagree over extraneous dogma. In fact, the funny thing is that all of the above groups believe in the *same* god. Allah is just Arabic for the same one god that Christians and Jews believe in. That is why they are all called the Abrahamic religions...

Lajon Webb:: ...Is that stealing...?
I was pehaps being a bit flippant there. My apologies. What I was trying to point out was that if that was a rule to live by (rather than self-motivation to excel above others) then one could say that most people don't steal, so if you do steal today then they will not have it tomorrow! I much prefer your number two in the previous list "Do your best!" :-)

Have a nice day!

Tukka. Thank you for returning to this thread.

If you had written "Angeldove's statements were made out of an unreasonable faith in religious dogma?" not "I got chills reading Angeldove's comment. It is frightening what a disconnect some people have from reality, and what is responsible for that disconnect? Religion." then I wouldn't have asked you for an apology.

We don't know who we are talking to in these posts and it is impolite to make explicit comments about their personal belief systems. I am in no way implying you've made the only impolite comments on this forum. You're just the only one who has asked for a critique.

Also, I think humor should be encouraged in posts (especially when it is self depreciatory) and sarcasm should be discouraged. Sarcasm is the lowest form of humor and is most often used to mock and belittle.

Thanks again and best wishes.

Andrew,
Here is my response to your responses...
quoth Andrew: Finally, the Bible (or rather its message) was never attempted to be banned except insofar as it (Christianity) was a pagan doctrine to the Romans. The Hebrews for instance, were able to practice their religion whilst under Roman occupation. After the conversion of Flavius Valerius Constantinus to Christianity, the bible (or at least the Vulgaris) has had pretty much uninterrupted favour and has been anything but suppressed.

My response: The Holy Bible and its message IS being banned in many countries of the world and many are being harassed, imprisoned, killed or deprived of possessions or liberties because of their witness. Christians in some of these countries are encountering threats, angry mobs, abuse and destruction of property for their witness as well. A website that you may or may not want to check out is The Voice of the Martyrs - http://www.thevoiceofthemartyrs.org/

Is this that "gentle" society you spoke of earlier?

I have a heart for missions and I am glad our pastor supports missions. I'm on the outreach team in our church.

quoth Andrew: Re new covenant. Just how much of the old testament proscriptions do you throw out then? All of them? Some of them? Who decides? Certainly many Christians these days pick and choose depending on what they *personally* want to. Of course, those who don't choose exactly the same ones as you are not "True Christians". That is when dogma has destroyed the message.

My response: Christians are under a New Covenant because of what Christ did on the cross. It's as simple as that. Now, it is true alot of Christians (as well as non-believers) compartmentalize God to fit whatever they want for their lives. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven! God works on us daily it is not something that is done in an instant. We were terrible for quite some time so we have to get all of that stuff out. Everyone has issues surrendering their lives and wants to be in control because they feel that can handle it (life) and don't need any help. I wonder why people resort to alcohol (as I did) and drugs etc then..? What do you perceive as a "True Christian"...? Some one who is perfect is every and all aspects of their life..? That's going to be hard to find. As well as the perfect church and pastor...! I will say this though the best witness one can be is by the way one lives their life.

Here is a quote from one of my favorite Christian bands dc Talk from their book - Jesus Freaks, "Some Christians haven’t even attempted to think about whether or not they would die for Jesus because they haven’t really been living for Him." I look at the quote every morning and know I need to step up things in my life.

quoth Andrew: My response: your first words "Do today what others don't so you'll have tomorrow what others won't!" don't sit well with my ethics as it is extremely selfish although as a self-motivation mantra it is not so bad. Also one could read it as condoning thievery...

My response: Doing today what others don't so I'll have tomorrow what others don't IS motivation to me. I'm simply talking about simple little disciplines that, done consistently over time, will add up to the very biggest accomplishments. Here's the problem: every action that is easy to do, is also easy not to do. Because if you don't do them, they won't kill you ... at least not today. What's more, not doing it is usually more comfortable than doing it would be. But that seemingly insignificant error in judgment, compounded over time, will kill you. One of my mentors says "It's Easier Done Than Said." I read alot of personal development books with the Bible being the absolute best of all of them. In my business I have to and I'm better for it. It's not stealing at all...anyone can do simple things like read 10 pages of a good book that's going to feed their mind with knowledge to help others - but most will not. Is that stealing...?

Gotta go eat dinner now. Talk to you later.

Hiya

Lajon Webb: Sooooo based on your own statement, please answer this question, What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Bible? or Why and how has the Bible survived and even flourished in spite of centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message?

My response: I've not read all of those hundreds of books, but I have read a few and they are anything but scholarly. In fact they seem rather strained and shrill. Others I have read trace the origins of the bible stories to Egyptian, Persian and Indian mythology amongst others. It needs to be said, that biblical archeology is *not* finding the things one would expect to find from a valid historical document. In fact Homer's work of fiction, "The Iliad" has proven more useful in finding archaeological evidence for some parts of that story (written many centuries after they happened). Think of Troy and Agamemnon (I've been to his citadel and tomb!).

Anyway - have a read of this article (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/joseph_mccabe/religious_controversy/chapter_14.html) and tell me that there is no controversy over whether the story of Jesus was unique in the preceding centuries... Then read this: http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm . Don't take the veracity of those pieces at face value - have a look around and confirm for yourself the main statements.

Finally, the Bible (or rather its message) was never attempted to be banned except insofar as it (Christianity) was a pagan doctrine to the Romans. The Hebrews for instance, were able to practice their religion whilst under Roman occupation. After the conversion of Flavius Valerius Constantinus to Christianity, the bible (or at least the Vulgaris) has had pretty much uninterrupted favour and has been anything but suppressed.

Of course, neither the origins of the Bible nor its accuracy says anything about the existence your God, unless you have pinned your faith on it alone.
_____________________________

Lajon Webb: ... I love lobster and shrimp too! [Me: Ditto!] Which brings us to the rest of your quote about how hard it is to live up to everything in the Bible. We as Christians are under a new Covenant because of what Christ did on the Cross..! It's very hard to live a righteous life and most just will not even do it at all nor even try...especially in these days.

My response: Re new covenant. Just how much of the old testament proscriptions do you throw out then? All of them? Some of them? Who decides? Certainly many Christians these days pick and choose depending on what they *personally* want to. Of course, those who don't choose exactly the same ones as you are not "True Christians". That is when dogma has destroyed the message.

___________________

Lajon Webb: One more question Andrew, is it possible that your unbelief in God is actually an unwillingness to submit to Him?

My response: How many times do I need to state that I give no more credence to your god than I do any other mythological story character? Is it possible that your unbelief in the the purple fire-breathing dragon at the end of my garden is actually an unwillingness on your behalf to to give him coal to eat?

I think the problem here is that you, like many religious people, just cannot comprehend that *insert deity of choice* is only real in your own mind. To others, such as myself, it just does not exist (strong Atheist position) or we have no knowledge of its existence (weak Atheist position)!

_____________________________

Lajon Webb: I'd also like to close with some words that are actually time-tested and relevant for everyone..!

Do today what others don't so you'll have tomorrow what others won't!

Expectations of others are rarely higher than the ones you heap on yourself.

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
1 John 3:16-21

1. Do What's Right
2. Do Your Best
3. Treat Others The Way You Want To Be Treated

My response: your first words "Do today what others don't so you'll have tomorrow what others won't!" don't sit well with my ethics as it is extremely selfish although as a self-motivation mantra it is not so bad. Also one could read it as condoning thievery...

I much prefer the normal formulation of the golden rule: "Do to others as you would have them do to you".

In your following list of three doctrines, I have absolutely no problem though!

Have a great day!

(I hope this isn't a double post - I got an error the first time)

Anonymous, to quote and respond to your remarks:

-
"First to Angeldove. You said: "It is frightening what a disconnect some people have from reality." But if you had read more than one of her posts you would know she was molested as a child and endured many hardships before her faith in God made a significant change in her lifestyle. That's her reality and she is entitled to share it here without you questioning her mental stability."
-

First, it should be apparent that my remarks were not designed to hurt Angeldove, who claims to no longer be participating in this forum. Regardless of that fact, I don't think it is right to characterize what I said about her as an gratuitous insult for the reasons I will mention in a second, and I think that if anybody feels insulted or offended by what I said, that is on them.

If someone subscribes to what I feel is a completely irrational world view, and this feeling of mine is well supported by the evidence (which in this case is the LACK of evidence for her having very specific ideas about reality), how is describing her as having "a disconnect from reality" unjustified, or in any way out of line?

Perhaps I am incorrect in assessing the ultimate source of her disconnect, but the proximate cause of the irrational ideas expressed in her comment here, is undoubtedly her religion. If she is entitled to express her opinion that my words are coming from the devil (and this is strongly implied), then why should I be rebuked for expressing my assessment that her statements were made out of an unreasonable faith in religious dogma?

This is a prime example of the double standard that I think some people in this discussion are applying.

-
"Then there's your comments to Pastor Dukes. Yes, you did mistake him for another panelist and make an admission..sort of..(but for me nothing clears the air after you've accused someone of something falsely like -please forgive me). You also wrote he should be "doing something productive". If you had read the previous posts, you would know his church has over 70 ministries active in their community. I call that productive."
-

Yes, I admitted (not "sort of") that I was in error attributing someone else's comments to pastor Duke. I did this moments after posting my comment. If I could have gone back and edited the comment, I would have. I should have been more careful. I apologize. However, I think it clearly was an honest mistake and I don't think that it is really going to do any real harm to Pastor Duke's reputation.

To address your other contention. I was making a very specific point, essentially a sarcastic mirroring of a similar suggestion made by Angeldove towards atheists, to quote her: "Why don't you stop wasting energy criticising people who are trying to help others and you start trying to make this world a safer place to live."

What I was trying to illustrate is how our participation in this forum does not, in any meaningful way, detract from any "good" we may do in the world any more than Pastor Duke's taking the time to write this column detracts from the "good" that he does. I thought that the context of my remark was apparent, but perhaps I should have directly quoted Angeldove in the original comment for additional clarity.

I'm glad you took the time to outline your objections, it's hard to tell sometimes how people might unintentionally misinterpret your words. I think we can save ourselves a lot of grief by being specific about what we have a problem with and what we mean when we say various things.

Andrew,
One more thing:
Lajon Webb: So how did you come to atheism Andrew?
My response: - That is a long story, but just to get the main points, I had a deep fascination with how things in nature worked. So I went out of my way to become as well educated in these things as I could (this was pre-internet). Also, I had studied comparitive religion, history and anthroplogy so I could see how and why the tales contained within the various religions came to be (have you ever heard of Mithra by the way?). After that it was a no-brainer really. How did you come to your disbelief in Ba'al or rejection of the doctrines of Hindu?

I never addressed this and I like to now. I have a long history as well. Let's see, back in the 60's I went to a Baptist church in St. Louis as a child with my grandmother. Attending Sunday school as well but didn't know why. Now I was about 9 years old when I asked about "that guy on the cross that looked hurt." My grandmother assumed I "knew" as I was attending church and Sunday school. She explained everything to me and I asked for Christ to be my Savior and got baptized and became a member of that church at the age of 9. This angered some of the congregation as I was a child and "too young to be a member of the church." The pastor at the time informed them how I was at least willing to become a member and serve the church whereas alot of them had been sitting in the pews...doing nothing. Years later, and still not reading the Bible and maybe saying my prayers before bed....occasionally...I joined the US Navy. Now, here I kept getting bombarded by "Bible-Thumpers" as we called them and they always came to ME...! I would always throw up my shield and say, "I'm good to go...I'm saved...I'll do that church stuff when I'm 90 and got one foot in the grave...I'll get right then...don't wanna go to hell..!" I usually said this as I was hung-over from the previous night's liberty party..! I wondered though..WHY...these guys kept coming to ME..! Fast-forward to 1992. I'm out of the Navy now and I constantly thinking I need to get my life in order. I still have a drinking problem and love to party...serious baggage from the military. I figure maybe I should get into God's Word as those "Bible-Thumpers" suggested BUT I'm not too crazy about going to church and being "misled" by some "smooth talking preacher" I can just read the Bible myself. I should backup here. I wanted to become a member of a "religion" where I could still drink and party AND still be good with "whomever" when I die. I KNEW I should be reading the Bible and going to church though. I started carrying this microscopic Gideon's Bible around and reading it because I remembered how my grandmother used to read The Daily Bread and The Bible. Well, I got a job in Silicon Valley and the person sponsoring me was a Christian and asked me about that Bible. Long story short, he would up buying me a Bible and introducing me to Contemporary Christian Music as he was not too fond of the explicit language in my choice of music. We spent alot of time together on those lunch hours and he began to minister to me and explain WHY I needed to go to a good Bible teaching local church. Going to church to me meant getting all dressed up (something I would do for a job interview but not for church) and I didn't want to do that. Funny thing about God though, He'll take you just as you are. See nobody had told me that except for my friend at work. I finally went to church and have been the better for it and I no longer have a drinking problem because of God. No AA meetings nor anything else, just God. The same God who knows me inside out and is working on me daily. I'm 46 now and have an AWESOME relationship with the Lord.

I want to say this though...I felt I had to be "perfect" as I felt that is what it meant to be a Christian, like the people in the Bible. Those people were far from perfect (except Jesus of course) and God still used them to carry out His plan and He still does the same thing today! This whole conversation on the Internet may be part of His plan for someone else to know Him. I believe that people are being saved by my witness. May God get all the Glory and Honor!

One of my favorite people in the Bible is David! I remember reading that guy's for the first time and going "wow". Awesome..! It was then that I realized as long as I kept my eyes on man, instead of Christ I would always be disappointed.

Christ lived the life we could not live and took the punishment we could not take to offer the hope we cannot resist.

Who does that? What kind of person would take the blame for something he didn't do?

When you love the unloving, you get a glimpse of what God does for you.

Anyway, just wanted to share that.

Take care..!

Andrew,
I thought I posted on here last night after coming home from church but somehow it's not here. Don't know why anyway, let's continue our discussion...

quoth Andrew: You are forgetting one thing here. Each of those things you state can be detected and measured objectively by many people - all with he same results. However, ESP has never been measured or detected. We only have subjective and highly questionable testimony to go on and evidence always trumps testimony. The same thing applies to your god (from an atheist's perspective).

My response: Sooooo based on your own statement, please answer this question, What do you say about the hundreds of scholarly books that carefully document the veracity and reliability of the Bible? or Why and how has the Bible survived and even flourished in spite of centuries of worldwide attempts to destroy and ban its message?

quoth Andrew: I have not kept all 10 of the commandments, no. And nor should I as it is not my book. However, the so-called golden-rule which is shared by most religions sits very well with my ethics. The golden rule roughly coincides with 5-10 of your commandments. But, have you ever worked on a Sunday? Or how about followed Leviticus 11:10 (eating Shellfish is an abomination) or Leviticus 19:19 (wearing clothing made from 2 types of material is an abomination). They are just the mild proscriptions that don't harm other people. If you truly lived by absolutely everything in the bible, you would soon be put away for life as a threat to other people, so even you will pick and chose what is appropriate in modern gentle society.

My response: No, I haven't kept all of the 10 Commandments either..! I'm not perfect and do not profess to be perfect. Yes, I have worked on Sundays instead of going to church thereby making the "choice" to work the hours instead of losing my job at the time. Now I've made the "choice" to work from home with my business so that I can go to church..! Now, most people will not step in faith and do that even though they say they want to make some changes in their lives...but do nothing about it..(especially at this time of year)..! So their choice has been made by them and sadly they are reaping the consequences of that choice, not enough time with their children, etc. I love lobster and shrimp too! Which brings us to the rest of your quote about how hard it is to live up to everything in the Bible. We as Christians are under a new Covenant because of what Christ did on the Cross..! It's very hard to live a righteous life and most just will not even do it at all nor even try...especially in these days. Jesus helps us with this as well in Matthew 11:28-30 (NLT) Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke fits perfectly, and the burden I give you is light. One more question Andrew, is it possible that your unbelief in God is actually an unwillingness to submit to Him?

I'd also like to close with some words that are actually time-tested and relevant for everyone..!

Do today what others don't so you'll have tomorrow what others won't!

Expectations of others are rarely higher than the ones you heap on yourself.

1 Corinthians 13:1-13
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
1 John 3:16-21

1. Do What's Right
2. Do Your Best
3. Treat Others The Way You Want To Be Treated

Have a FANTASTIC day..!

Hiya,

Lajon Webb: Let repeat part of my initial post again,"Seeing is believing -- if I can't see God, why should I believe in Him?"
"So if you can't see something, you don't believe it exists? Have you ever seen your brain? We believe in many things that we can't see. Have you ever seen the wind? Have you seen history? We see the effects of the wind, but the wind is invisible. We have records of history, but it is by 'faith' we believe that certain historical events happened. Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence. Do you know that you have a receiver? Your 'receiver' (your spirit) is dead because of sin (see Ephesians 2:1). You need to be plugged into the life of God, and then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm. Do you think that you have kept the Ten Commandments? Etc."

My response: You are forgetting one thing here. Each of those things you state can be detected and measured objectively by many people - all with he same results. However, ESP has never been measured or detected. We only have subjective and highly questionable testimony to go on and evidence always trumps testimony. The same thing applies to your god (from an atheist's perspective).

I have not kept all 10 of the commandments, no. And nor should I as it is not my book. However, the so-called golden-rule which is shared by most religions sits very well with my ethics. The golden rule roughly coincides with 5-10 of your commandments. But, have you ever worked on a Sunday? Or how about followed Leviticus 11:10 (eating Shellfish is an abomination) or Leviticus 19:19 (wearing clothing made from 2 types of material is an abomination). They are just the mild proscriptions that don't harm other people. If you truly lived by absolutely everything in the bible, you would soon be put away for life as a threat to other people, so even you will pick and chose what is appropriate in modern gentle society.

________________________________________

Lajon Webb: So how did you come to atheism Andrew?
My response: - That is a long story, but just to get the main points, I had a deep fascination with how things in nature worked. So I went out of my way to become as well educated in these things as I could (this was pre-internet). Also, I had studied comparitive religion, history and anthroplogy so I could see how and why the tales contained within the various religions came to be (have you ever heard of Mithra by the way?). After that it was a no-brainer really. How did you come to your disbelief in Ba'al or rejection of the doctrines of Hindu?
______________________________________

Lajon Webb: Pascal's Wager. To be truthful, I didn't even know about that. So thanks for that bit of education and the URL link! [me: Glad I could be of help!]...

... You've referred to God as a "magical sky daddy" and "fairy tale" and I ask you why isn't it absurd to try to speak or even conceive of a non-existent 'God' when an existing God would, by definition, be greater?
My response: I don't understand what you are getting at here. Are you saying that because people talk about something that makes it real? Remember, the only reason I'm here talking (typing) with you about the subject is because of a desire to help you to understand what atheism really is... Can you not understand that atheists do not believe in Yahwah or whatever in almost exactly the same was as you don't believe in Ra or Vishnu?
_______________________________

Lajon Webb: While you ponder that one, here's another question does your present worldview provide you with an adequate sense of meaning and purpose?
My response: Easy. Yes it does.
________________________________
Lajon Webb:
I was wondering...because you paraphrased Romans 1:20, I wanted to ask you to paraphrase these Scriptures as well:

Psalm 10:4 (NLT) These wicked people are too proud to seek God. They seem to think that God is dead.

John 14:6 (NLT) (Jesus speaking) "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Romans 1:18-19 (NLT) But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God put this knowledge in their hearts.

Take your time with them as you are probably busy like most of us.
___________
My response: You could throw these at me forever, but they remain words written by various human authors, edited over time and used to self-justify the religion.

To paraphrase all 3 in one hit. "You must believe in Jesus if you want eternity in heaven. If you think too much about it and don't take these words as proof, then you won't because you are proud, wicked and sinful. God will be angry with you. And you wouldn't like that".

Here are some words much more useful for the human condition and these times:

"I come from the East, most of you [here] are Westerners. If I look at you superficially, we are different, and if I put my emphasis on that level, we grow more distant. If I look on you as my own kind, as human beings like myself, with one nose, two eyes, and so forth, then automatically that distance is gone. We are the same human flesh. I want happiness; you also want happiness. From that mutual recognition, we can build respect and real trust of each other. From that can come cooperation and harmony."

The Dalai Lama.

Have a great day Lajon!

Andrew,
I was wondering...because you paraphrased Romans 1:20, I wanted to ask you to paraphrase these Scriptures as well:

Psalm 10:4 (NLT) These wicked people are too proud to seek God. They seem to think that God is dead.

John 14:6 (NLT) (Jesus speaking) "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Romans 1:18-19 (NLT) But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God put this knowledge in their hearts.

Take your time with them as you are probably busy like most of us.

Oh, if David can dance for the Lord, I can most certainly SHOUT for the Lord and PRAISE Him...! I forgot to address that quote from you in your previous post...apologizes..!

Type with you soon!

quoth Andrew:
"Romans 1:20 - paraphrased as natural things you can see are proof of him even though he is invisible? How convenient for someone who wishes to convince others of a magical sky-daddy."
My response: Let repeat part of my initial post again,"Seeing is believing -- if I can't see God, why should I believe in Him?"
"So if you can't see something, you don't believe it exists? Have you ever seen your brain? We believe in many things that we can't see. Have you ever seen the wind? Have you seen history? We see the effects of the wind, but the wind is invisible. We have records of history, but it is by 'faith' we believe that certain historical events happened. Television waves are invisible, but an antenna and a receiver can detect their presence. Do you know that you have a receiver? Your 'receiver' (your spirit) is dead because of sin (see Ephesians 2:1). You need to be plugged into the life of God, and then you will come alive and be aware of the invisible spiritual realm. Do you think that you have kept the Ten Commandments? Etc."

quoth Andrew:
"Well it sounds like you are not caught up in the dogma of organised religion which is a start, but you have made the classic mistake of assuming that atheists haven't studied the bible (and other texts). Many come to atheism directly through studying the bible. It in fact, makes the best case for atheism."
My response: So how did you come to atheism Andrew?

quoth Andrew:
"In regards to your half-hearted attempt to formulate Pascal's wager, I hope that you are praying to the correct god, and not a false one, simply because if you have made the wrong choice, you are definitely going to the "real" one's version of hell."
My response: Pascal's Wager. To be truthful, I didn't even know about that. So thanks for that bit of education and the URL link! But to answer your question, I know I'm with the right God. As you noticed in my earlier post, I said I was in His Word daily. I know Him and I wish everyone did, but He doesn't force Himself on us. We make the decision ourselves - whether we make one or not. You've referred to God as a "magical sky daddy" and "fairy tale" and I ask you why isn't it absurd to try to speak or even conceive of a non-existent 'God' when an existing God would, by definition, be greater? While you ponder that one, here's another question does your present worldview provide you with an adequate sense of meaning and purpose?

Here's a little story for you:
A college student attended a philosophy class which held a discussion about God's existence. The professor presented the following logic: “Has anyone in this class ever heard God?” No one spoke. “Has anyone in this class ever touched God?” Again, no one spoke. “Has anyone in this class ever seen God?” When no one spoke for the third time, he said, “Then there is no God.”

One student thought for a second and then asked for permission to reply. Curious to hear this bold student's response, the professor agreed. The student stood up and asked the following: “Has anyone in this class ever heard our professor's brain?” Silence. “Has anyone in this class ever touched our professor's brain?” Absolute silence. “Has anyone in this class ever seen our professor's brain?” When no one in the class dared to speak, the student concluded, “Then, according to our professor's logic, it must be true that our professor has no brain!”

The student received an 'A' in the class.

Have a Fantastic Day...!

Hi Tukka.

I believe you may owe a few apologies.

First to Angeldove. You said: "It is frightening what a disconnect some people have from reality." But if you had read more than one of her posts you would know she was molested as a child and endured many hardships before her faith in God made a significant change in her lifestyle. That's her reality and she is entitled to share it here without you questioning her mental stability.

Then there's your comments to Pastor Dukes. Yes, you did mistake him for another panelist and make an admission..sort of..(but for me nothing clears the air after you've accused someone of something falsely like -please forgive me). You also wrote he should be "doing something productive". If you had read the previous posts, you would know his church has over 70 ministries active in their community. I call that productive.

I agree with your closing comments that "If you think someone says something that is a gratuitous insult towards you or another person participating in the discussion, feel free to call them on it." and "most of us want to keep this discussion on a civil level". I'd love to see common courtesy restored. {Maybe we need rules on how not to be a total a**hole to complete strangers} : )

quoth Lajon Webb:
To Andrew:
I referred to a book, "God Doesn't Believe in Atheists" by Ray Comfort, the "quotes" are NOT my own, but I agree with them..! Why not add it to your library...!

An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.

I am a Christian and I'll stand on Romans 1:20.
-------------------
Well Ray Comfort is missing the point entirely and trying to use cheap rhetoric. It is unfortunate that you have not thought this through yourself but choose to take his faulty definitions and philosophising at face-value.

Romans 1:20 - paraphrased as natural things you can see are proof of him even though he is invisible? How convenient for someone who wishes to convince others of a magical sky-daddy.
_____________
quoth Lajon Webb:
There is ONLY ONE GOD...I'd get to know Him by getting into His Word as I do every morning..!
_______
When people have to SHOUT that there is only one god (and conveniently the one from the religion that they happen to be born to) you have to wonder who they are trying to convince. Look, I'm glad you get comfort from a fairy-tale you have come to believe - but stop with the proselytising...
_______________________
quoth Lajon Webb:
Note: This may require one to lose a few hours of sleep to actually do some reading and studying on their own instead of listening to what is said from the pulpit and/or the Internet and various message boards, ALL instead of actually attending, tithing, and serving WEEKLY in a local Bible teaching church that is missions driven...!
______________________
Well it sounds like you are not caught up in the dogma of organised religion which is a start, but you have made the classic mistake of assuming that atheists haven't studied the bible (and other texts). Many come to atheism directly through studying the bible. It in fact, makes the best case for atheism.

_________________________
quoth Lajon Webb:
Andrew, I'm not sure which end of the spectrum you are on as an atheist and/or agnostic, but either way you are making a decision and I pray its the right one in regards to God.
_________________
For what it is worth, I see no evidence for the existence of any supernatural being, and therefore I don't believe. I also don't believe in Thor, Ba'al, Amun Ra or any of the other 3000 gods that have been believed and fought over for millenia. Nor do I believe in faeries or Santa Clause or Sasquatch.

In regards to your half-hearted attempt to formulate Pascal's wager, I hope that you are praying to the correct god, and not a false one, simply because if you have made the wrong choice, you are definitely going to the "real" one's version of hell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wager

And have a nice day yourself! :-)

My mistake, I got my wires crossed between what Mr. Dukes here and Mr. Nyang said in his column (regarding materialism). I didn't reread this column before commenting.

Sorry about that.

I got chills reading Angeldove's comment. It is frightening what a disconnect some people have from reality, and what is responsible for that disconnect? Religion.

Atheists are controlled by the devil because we see fit to call the Pastor on his use of blatant use equivocation and other flaws in his argument, instead doing something productive like ... uh, solving crimes or saving the world. And yet the Pastor is free to characterize atheists as greedy materialists or shallow bandwagon-jumpers chasing the latest "cool trend" ... apparently this does not count a precious waste of time and energy (which could be spent saving the world) because it is done in the name of God (who no religious panelist or commenter has yet proven to exist).

People of faith are indeed using different "rules of engagement" in this debate than the non-believers. The non-believers reject and criticize the use of logical fallacies and provide (and ask for) evidence and examples that reinforce their arguments. If we are using bad examples and bad evidence, I haven't seen the people of faith do a very good job of challenging it, as I think most non-believers would say they are entitled to do.

Both sides have said some unkind things. The difference is, non-believers take unkindly to the blatant and demonstrated irrationality of the believers (especially when used by the believers to attack non-believers), while non-believers seem to react in an unkind manner to the mere existence of non-believers, and react unkindly to the unapologetic use of logic and reason.

The only reason I think atheists are really coming off as "rude" and "hostile" to Christians is because we are making rational arguments against their faith, which they take VERY personally. The onus should not be on non-believers to "soften" their points to accommodate the sensitivities of the faithful. We are all participating in this debate by choice, and implicit in a discussion such as this is the understanding that both sides will try to use logic and reason to their best advantage.

If you think someone says something that is a gratuitous insult towards you or another person participating in the discussion, feel free to call them on it. Quote the offending text and describe why you think it brings nothing of value to the discussion and why you think serves only to hurt the person being attacked.

I think most of us want to keep this discussion on a civil level, even if most of us do feel rather passionately about the matters being discussed.

Wow. I don't think I can say anything productive on this piece. Sir, I hope you meet me or a fellow atheist some day and we can present our case to you, since apparently you are unaware of any positions between universal skepticism and theism.

To Andrew:
I referred to a book, "God Doesn't Believe in Atheists" by Ray Comfort, the "quotes" are NOT my own, but I agree with them..! Why not add it to your library...!

An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.

I am a Christian and I'll stand on Romans 1:20.

From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God. - Romans 1:20 (NLT)

There is ONLY ONE GOD...I'd get to know Him by getting into His Word as I do every morning..!

Note: This may require one to lose a few hours of sleep to actually do some reading and studying on their own instead of listening to what is said from the pulpit and/or the Internet and various message boards, ALL instead of actually attending, tithing, and serving WEEKLY in a local Bible teaching church that is missions driven...!

Andrew, I'm not sure which end of the spectrum you are on as an atheist and/or agnostic, but either way you are making a decision and I pray its the right one in regards to God.

Have a fantastic day!

I wonder what Wesley Autrey has faith in...

A Good Samaritan jumped onto the tracks at a Manhattanville subway station at 137th Street and Broadway this afternoon to save the life of a stranger who had fallen after having an apparent seizure.

The man stumbled off the platform onto the tracks, where he could have been killed if not for the heroic efforts of 50-year-old Wesley Autrey who did the unthinkable, jumping onto the tracks with a train approaching.

"He was stuck and I was like, 'Wow. Do I struggle here?' If I got him up, then I would have to go for the ground. And I didn't have that much time. So I just went for the gutter thing," said Autrey. "I just dove on top of him and held him down, cause I knew there would be enough clearance for us."

Autrey, a construction worker who lives in the neighborhood, grabbed the man and pinned him down in the gutter between the running rails while a downtown 1 train passed overhead, miraculously leaving both men without a scratch.

"I had to have the guy pinned down, because like I said, he was in a seizure," said Autrey. "He was incoherent. He was fighting, pushing and pushing against me. So I had to lock myself down, so he wouldn't push me back, and possibly my head get hit."

Autrey's two young daughters, ages four and six, who were with him at the time of the incident, watched in horror while the situation unfolded. When the train finally came to a stop, Autrey called out to them to let them know he was alive.

Autrey guessed there was maybe an inch or inch and a half clearance between his head and the underside of the train.

"Remember, the gutter maybe got like a 12-inch drop. So his body fitted in there perfectly. And I just laid on top of him, and had to pin him down," he said.

The man Autrey saved was taken to St. Luke's hospital as a precautionary measure, where he is listed in stable condition. He is expected to be recover.

When asked if he considers himself a hero, Autrey said absolutely not. He said he was just doing what he thinks anyone else would do.

"No, I don't consider myself a hero," he said. "I just went to someone's aid. Someone who was in need of help."

warp how could it possibly annoy you that i erred on the side of non-judgementalism?
i am having a very different experience here on the boards- i see so little that is hopeful to me-
i really am someone who has an automatic suspicion of the good intentions in people- and yes- its also a valuable islamic principle.

TalkOrigins link:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA120.html

"If my own mind is a product of the irrational.. how shall I trust my mind?"

See Creationist Claim CA120: Mind's fallibility for a quickie response from TalkOrigins.

Also: this . . . ah, idea . . . is largely a product of misunderstanding evolution. Lewis seems to have assumed that it was simply messy random irrationality - this last a concept that is entirely out of place here (although *non*rational would work, in terms of any sort of intentional sense); you can basically see the chaos vs. order frame in play here. This entirely ignores natural selection - Darwin's big idea - which given random (but based on physical laws and constraints) variation quite orderly and mechanically selects for what shows up and is good enough in the particular time and place. (to grossly, grossly oversimplify, etc,)

In our case, that resulted in a brain that is very - if imperfectly, and with various habits - good at figuring certain kinds of things out. Hence agriculture, antibiotics, and airplanes. The *need* for a guiding Mind is removed (which isn't the same as demonstrating that one doesn't exist, of course). Or, coming at it from the other direction, we know, as a matter of practical results, that we can use our minds, in a certain methodologically disciplined way, to develop an useful understanding of the natural world - see moon landings, etc. Using them this way has produced modern evolutionary biology, which does not require a guiding Mind (repeat caveat) to start explaining, however imperfectly, biological diversity - and we can quite pragmatically skip all the bellybutton-contemplating handwaving about how rationality can arise from 'irrationality,': that is, order from chaos, a focus - at this level of analysis- more appropriate to myth than science.