All Comments (71)

I'm looking forward to read Mr.Ehrman's book, because simply by this short interview, I have to say that I've had a similar experience with regards to Christianity in my own life.

Thanks for conducting the interview.

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Realist - thanks for your efforts at clarification and correction -- refreshingly different from some "people of faith" who simply make pronouncements about God and promises of eternal damnation if you don't accept them.

A further clarification -- while I like to think atheists are generally honest, what I can say unequivocally is that their conclusions are more fact-based and evidence-based.

Sorry I meant to address Dr Fill not Dr Rah in my last post.

BTW the correct quote appears at:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/kellerframe.htm
and I have sent an email to the other atheist site that has the misleading quote to get them to update it. Thanks again Amie.

Regards,
Realist

Dr Rah,
It seems both the Christian site and the atheist site that I got the quotation from are misleading people by taking the quote out of context. They should both check their sources. See Amie's post above. I am assuming of course that Amie is not a blatant liar.

I would not be surprised if the quote on the atheist side was copied from a Christian site. Atheists tend to be people who place a high value on honesty regardless of whether it is convenient or not.

Regards,
Realist

Dr Rah -- you make false assumptions about Ehrman's religious upbringing. He was not raised a fundamentalist, but became one on his own as a teen-ager.

Also, please don't assume you know that he (or anyone other than yourself) fails to understand "the suffering of God on the cross." Instead, please consider that he has his own understanding that is as valid to him as your understanding is to you.

Reading through the posts here has been fascinating. What comes through is how threatened Christians are by a respected biblical scholar who no longer believes. The Christians here denigrate, dismiss and insult him, and make sweeping statements without basis in fact.

Ehrman can’t be written off as a militant atheist who knows nothing about religion. He’s a nice guy who struggled greatly with his faith, knows more about religion than most church-going Christians, and has rejected it based on that knowledge. I really do look forward to the day when people are not threatened by that kind of honesty.

If I had also been raised in theological legalism, I might have followed the same path as that of Dr. Ehrman. But I grew up in a Christian family that did not have rigid beliefs and pat answers for life's difficult questions. Dr. Enrman and others who cannot reconcile a good God with suffering, have not understood the suffering God of the cross.

Realist, this from a Christian site:
It was Helen Keller who blasphemed God's Word by stating:

"There is so much in the bible against which every instinct of my being rebels, so much so that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention."

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Atheism/fools_day.htm

Dear Realist:

"Moderate, I think you used to think more clearly when you were younger.

The concept of Original Sin makes no sense whatsoever. God made us flawed from birth because a talking snake convinced a woman to eat some fruit? Because of that we get to roast in hell for all eternity regardless of whether we do good or evil."

Have you mistaken me for a fundamentalist? Clearly, the stories of the Bible are sometimes historical and sometimes symbolic. The Adam and Eve story definitely sounds symbolic. David and Bathsheba by contrast has a detailed historical texture to it. It is not the kind of story you would make up to glorify a leader. But All of the Bibles stories, symbolic or historical, offer great insights into human nature.

Did any of the things I mentioned about the twentieth century not happen? If they did happen, how can you gainsay the conclusion that human nature has a dark, destructive, and bloody, side to it?

Dear Realist,

"Moderate:
I got the quote from an atheist site. That's the first time I've seen a quote taken blatantly misleadingly out of context on an atheist site. I've seen stunts like that many many times on Christian sites. Never before on an atheist site."

Thank you for the open and civil explanation. All too rare on these blogs. Vetting quotations really does take work. There are a lot of sources that have an ax to grind and are basically putting out propaganda. I try to do good research when I quote things, and apparently you do to.

All the best.

Ironically, the problem of suffering is what made me a stronger Christian. As a former missionary who lived with the poor in Bolivia, I discovered the grace of God more intensely in the presence of those who suffer yet love and have joy in ways that the average American cannot fathom. We live in a culture that equates happiness with self-gratification. I pity Mr. Ehrman now -- whose primary joy now seems to be symbolized by "better wine" consumed. I would rather live a life in God suffering in solidarity with the poor.

Authors will be authors - Mr. Ehrman discovered that anyone can write a book, or many books, in the case of the bible. He discovered through his research that the bible was a collective work of fictional accounts with mythological and allegorical foundations, but no literal truth. God turns out to be a theory after all - yet another human construct. Suffering turns out to be vastly more real than God. Things happen & there is no free will - a pure illusion.

Given the vast popularity of biblical works, we have authors cashing in - like Dan Brown (fictional work e.g. Da Vinci Code) Princeton religions scholar and MacArthur Foundation winner Elaine Pagels (history of Christianity and Gnosticism), and Bart Ehrman (Christian confessional author). The book store shelves are full over in the Christian books section.

Imagine the number of books written that pertain to the bible in one way or another. It's kept a lot of writers busy for 2000 years and all we know for sure it that people love to write - and even more folks love to read! That's the reality folks, otherwise your guess is as good as mine. Good luck getting to the bottom of the mystery by reading dozens of books on Christianity.

The Buddha said that even suffering was an illusion - in this view, there is no objective reality and no one to be saved. Free will, sin and salvation, good and evil, are all mental constructs.....humans create their own meaning as there is nothing whatsoever to be found outside your own Mind. How will you find anything without using your own mind & how will you prove the 'truth' of anything without using your own mind?? Does your mind depend on all of your neurons firing in the right order? In truth, your mind is the same Mind that runs the universe.....there is no difference.

All the artifacts of the past are an illusion. Mr. Ehrman is in the process of discovering this particular truth. Religion is an empty bucket with no bottom.........

My all loving and all powerful God does not cause suffering as implied by Mr. Ehrman.

He does however permit it. The pain and suffering of this world are the result of sin. Of people putting their wants and needs ahead of others.

Christ suffered and died for my sins as well as those of the rest of humanity. He did not cause his own suffering and death but he did accept the unjust punishments for his sins and offer them to the Father as compensation for those sins. By my accepting the just and unjust sufferings that I encounter and offering them to the Father as small payment for the sins of my life (the harm I have done to others). I can in a small way join with Christ and his sacrifice.

My God does not want people to suffer, but He is also a loving parent who wants his children to willingly love him. He has given us guidance for our lives. We have the choice to follow or reject that guidance. When we or someone else rejects that guidance the result is pain and suffering for us and/or for others.

Every action has a consequence.

I pray that Mr. Ehrman will consider some of those philosphers such as Thomas Aquinas and the early Church Fathers who have written on this subject.

Or consider Luke 13 starting with verse 4:

"Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Silo'am fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." 6

May God Bless you Mr. Ehrman. And may you accpet the graces he sends to you that will faciitate your return to his family.

Hammerhead wrote:
"And that is we are infected with the eternally fatal inherited disease of sin."

The Moderate wrote:
"When I was a teenager and later a young man, I was sure the doctrine of Original Sin was wrong and wrong headed. Time taught me that it was I who was wrong. The Bible teaches of the dark and fallen aspect of human nature."

Moderate, I think you used to think more clearly when you were younger.

The concept of Original Sin makes no sense whatsoever. God made us flawed from birth because a talking snake convinced a woman to eat some fruit? Because of that we get to roast in hell for all eternity regardless of whether we do good or evil.

In the Christian world view, the innocent are punished for the sins of the guilty, and the guilty escape punishment by believing in stories that nobody would believe without years of indoctrination or peer pressure. It makes no sense at all. It's a good thing that today most people reject the twisted and hypocritical morality of the Bible.

The nature of humankind makes perfect sense in the light of evolution. We all have some capacity for violence and cruelty, and we all have the capacity for kindness and consideration. This is exactly what you would expect in a social animal. We share these traits with many other species of animals because they promote the survival of our genes.

Speed123 wrote:
"Materialists on here seem to think that anything is preferable to pain and suffering....and they think they can understand (i.e. eliminate) suffering through science."

"How is that going for you guys?"

Pretty darn well actually! And the best is yet to come - we are only just starting to figure out how biology really works.

In wealthy western democracies, our standard of living is much better than it was 200 years ago, and our lifespan is much longer. Suffering and dying from horrible illnesses used to be very common. Today there are very few people who starve or suffer from horrible illnesses. This is all because we now have a much better understanding of ourselves and the world we live in.

It was only by casting off the yoke of superstition and rejecting religion as the ultimate holder of truth that this has been possible. According to the Bible, disease is caused by demons and evil spirits.

Regards,
Realist

Thanks Amie for supplying the full quote. Being a realist, I don't like to mislead anyone. Thanks for setting me straight.

Moderate:
I got the quote from an atheist site. That's the first time I've seen a quote taken blatantly misleadingly out of context on an atheist site. I've seen stunts like that many many times on Christian sites. Never before on an atheist site.

Regards,
Realist

I meet a man on the 4/4/1996 who was not of this world. He stopped in the middle of a street and held my hand (I had vibrations up my arm) he asked me to look into his eyes - he had no blood cells. He was not of this world. I had a conversation that lasted 50 minutes. It changed my life. Do I believe him to be good or bad - I have had good and bad things happen to me but I still believe he is good.

I meet a man on the 4/4/1996 who was not of this world. He stopped in the middle of a street and held my hand (I had vibrations up my arm) he asked me to look into his eyes - he had no blood cells. He was not of this world. I had a conversation that lasted 50 minutes. It changed my life. Do I believe him to be good or bad - I have had good and bad things happen to me but I still believe he is good.

"Suffering" is the result of "Greed". Greed to be born again and again is the cause of suffering.Gautama Buddha realized the truth without any help from a God. End of suffering is the end of being born again. In other words to attain "Nirvana"

Brindley Jayatunga
Sri Lanka

"Suffering" is the result of "Greed". Greed to be born again and again is the cause of suffering.Gautama Buddha realized the truth without any help from a God. End of suffering is the end of being born again. In other words to attain "Nirvana"

Brindley Jayatunga
Sri Lanka

Gautama Buddha realized the issue "suffering" more than 2600 years ago and found the solution without God. We are being born again and again because of "Greed" , the cause of suffering, and to end the cycle of rebirth the solution is "Nirvana"

Gautama Buddha realized the issue "suffering" more than 2600 years ago and found the solution. "Greed" is the cause and to end the cycle of rebirth by attaining "Nirvana" is the solution

People belong to different faiths because they are the sons and daughters of believers. A child is born without any religion. His/her parents, environment, society and religious books are the reason for people to cling on to a particular religion. In other words we do not need a religion. All what we need is discipline without a religion.

Also, Bart's philosophy in that last section on suffering sounds a lot like the fake preachers, Olsten, that he rips in the first part of the interview....

There is suffering because God has given man free will.

If there was no suffering, Bart, there would be no free will.

And, without free will there would be no love, no heroism, no literature, no music, no meaning to life.

Materialists on here seem to think that anything is preferable to pain and suffering....and they think they can understand (i.e. eliminate) suffering through science.

How is that going for you guys?

Bart is just another hack scholar trying to make a buck on the Dan Brown /E. Pagels type of selling warped theories on Christianity.

Good luck with the book sales buddy -- I am sure they will be right up there with "the Secret"

Hack....

PS - remember the "gospel of judas"?

Turns out the whole thing was a bad translation and a hoax to make money for Discovery and that israeli "scientist"

There is no basis for Christianity because there is no sin. There is only positive and negative action. We encourage the former and discourage the latter, but we cannot call negative action sin, when it is simply the action of an individual who has been equipped to do exactly what he or she has done. That is, they have not been properly equipped to be a caring human being who makes a positive contribution. It is not because they made bad choices, because they made the only choices they were equipped to make.

None of us transcends our capabilities, otherwise the word would have no meaning. Neither do we do less than we are capable. We always do the only thing we are capable of doing. It all depends on how well-equipped we are.

Think about how good character is formed. Then think about how bad character is formed. When bad character has been sculpted into the psyche of an individual by circumstances, and perhaps genetics as well, how can you call their negative actions anything other than negative actions? The concept of 'sin' is all a big misunderstanding.

Let's focus our efforts on ensuring the best environment for development that we can to all children, and then we'll have a whole immense community of the 'pure in heart'.

Thursday's Child:

Your answer to the 'why' of suffering raises several points.

First, God doesn't 'intend' anything. There is no past and no future with God. Therefore he knew the story of the Adam and Eve before it happened. Second, that's why he didn't have to completely redo his creation to install various lovely types of suffering. He planned for it in advance, to save himself the trouble. Not that there is any 'in advance' with God.

You've made a good point about Ehrmann interjecting that little reference to his new-found hedonism. It struck me as ill-considered.

An aside: one of the reasons I find Creationism so difficult to buy is that life is so complex, too complex to have been designed by an infinite being. An infinite being would have designed life to be infinitely simple. No need for all this complex biology and chemistry.

So even though The Bible contains the book of Ecclessiastes, the book of Lamentations, the book of Job, and constant references in the New Testament encouraging believers that they will face tremendous hardships and suffering because of the faith in addition to everyday hardships and sufferings common to every human being, not to mention several references in both Proverbs and the Psalms that the world is full of suffering, Bart Ehrmann feels that the Bible and God sidestep the issue of suffering because something that elicits an unbelievable complexity of emotions and thoughts isn't reduced to one simplistic answer of "why"?

As to the "why", that is answered in Genesis and it is that we all live in a fallen world that is not operating as God had originally intended it because we have made the choice to disobey. While the answer as to "why" seems simple, again, dealing with the reality of suffering is not, and God realizes this--hence, the above-references found in the Bible.

Mr. Ehrmann has fallen away because he [emphasis on he] wasn't "satisfied" with any of the answers? His solution is basically to "eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die"? So if his answer to dealing with life's suffering is to satisfy yourself with better food and drink and "to count blessings and to realize how good life can be and how good it is," how is his message any different than Joel Osteen's of "advis[ing] you to think good thoughts. Think happy thoughts. Count your blessings. Realize it could be worse." I'm not endorsing Joel Osteen's point, I'm just confused about why he criticizes Mr. Osteen's philosophy as "morally bankrupt" but Mr. Ehrmann's solution has little difference.

Hammerhead:

I bow to your superior personality characteristics. And to that hammer.

My father, an Army Chaplain and graduate of Duke Divinity, told me, when he was Chief of Chaplains at Walter Reed, that the most important thing he did when he was with someone who was suffering was to listen to their story. As a young cleric visiting hospitals I was terrified that the suffering person would see that I had no solutions, no answers, no big deals to bring to the bed. Once I was with an extraordinary woman who was dying of cancer and she told me that she wanted to give me something by showing me how someone died. And she did, with courage, a sharp humor, and a biting intelligence. I came to know my fear and to learn, even though it was there, that I could, as you can, leap over my fear toward the story of the suffering person.
And BE's anguish over Atonement Theology is not an issue for many of us clergy. It is not the anguish of the cross that draws us to faith, it is the conviction that we are accepted, redeemed, made whole in relationship, in caring, in the trust that our story is worth hearing. Shalom, Rev. Rob

Kenneth the anonymous,
Then why did you not once address & include the suffering in Jesus's day and more importantly His response to it as a source of your "confusion"?
In addition Jesus did not say "blessed are the Tender hearted" He did say 100% "pure".
Your desire to change His words to suit your inferior personality characteristics is not new.
It was tried in His day as well.

Sorry to have left my name off the 'anonymous' post.

Hammerhead:

Now 'hear' this: If I thought suffering was a modern phenomenon, I'd be a ninny, wouldn't I. I simply wrote of an anecdote which had an effect on me.

If by 'condemnation' you refer to the salt which has lost its savor and is good for nothing but to be trodden underfoot, I assure you, I'm a salty one. But not in polite company.

If by 'pure' you mean unadulterated, no, I'm not 'pure in heart'. But if you mean tender-hearted, as did Jesus, then yes, I'm pure in heart.

"You certainly couldn't talk to people this way in your work and expect to keep your job."

Efavor-

Don't be naive. I am paid to tell people the truth and they thank me for it because they are seeking it.

Amie - I doubt you'd talk to me this way face to face. You certainly couldn't talk to people this way in your work and expect to keep your job.

If you did talk to me this way in person, you can bet I'd call you mean spirited.

As long you're speculating about me, let me suggest that you may be suffering from burn out and could benefit from some positive way to vent.

Well Efavor-

You seem to be a conflicted faithless man who is unwilling to share his story. I would guess you haunt boards like these- looking for something to solidify your uncertainty instead of interacting with others in your own community.

I have no problem with you calling me mean spirited under the sterile anonymity of this forum (something I doubt you would have the courage to do face to face). People tell me -I am honest.. Some may laugh while others feel assaulted. And yes I have been a comfort to many. I can only encourage you to go out into your community and find some service you can offer to others. You might cease to worry so much about a "non-cheap" way to lose faith and stop trying so hard to win your argument online with silly questions.

Dear Amie:

I would be interested in stories that you might care to share. As Bart finds, it is a difficult thing being human. We are subject to many ills physical and spiritual. It sounds like you involved in trying to make that better in such ways as are possible.

Kenneth,
To hear you speak you would think the scriptures gave no indication of "suffering" going on in Jesus's day?
You seem to treat "suffering" as an entirely recent,modern,etc,etc,,, phenomenon?
Your transparent attempt at avoidence of the fact that "suffering" was just as present in Jesus's day speaks clearly to the fact that what you are really trying to avoid saying is that you are "confused" with Jesus Himself and His posture towards suffering as given in scripture.
In addition you obviously have not a clue as to the condemnation issued by Jesus in the Sermon on the mount.
Would you have us believe that you are "pure in heart" ?
If you are "seriously" relying on the "pure" state of your heart to be "blessed" as Jesus said and the state of your heart is decididly less than "pure" what chance do you believe you have of being "blessed" on that basis?

Amie - Like, I say, you don't have to answer. Suggesting I read a book (which I've read, by the way) doesn't answer my question.

Frankly, Amie, though you might be very comforting to your suffering patients, you don't come across as very kind on this forum. In fact, you seem downright mean spirited.

Dear Begone:

"The solution is simple. No more human suffering, everyone has everything they want and die peacefully in their sleep.

Oops! Die!? If everyone have everything they want then no one will ever die. Some people don't want to die or let even those not yet alive die.

..."

Not sure I follow you on that, so it is hard to answer in any useful way.

Care to clarify a bit?

Efavor asks-

"Do you reserve your comforting words only for people who are dying and believe in God?"

I reply-

"I have held the hand of many dying atheists. Would you like to hear some of their stories?"

Efavor how can you say-

"my original request was for a yes or no answer which you have yet to supply."

I have walked with many atheists facing death and for some reason you have no interest in their stories.

Instead- You want me to give a "non-cheap" way to give up faith. Well. I have already suggested the works of Elie Wiesel and Leonard Cohen. Let me be more specific for you. Read Elie Wiesel's Night.

There's Hope In Prayer. Even for Atheists. NO Prayer (Talking or Listening to Ye ECLATi) Then NO Hope! Hope Is Pair, one needs this to not go insain! Ya Ya.

Interesting.

"A TiME For Everything..."

- Ecclesiasted:3 et seq.

Dear Hammerhead:

"And that is we are infected with the eternally fatal inherited disease of sin."

Well said.

When I was a teenager and later a young man, I was sure the doctrine of Original Sin was wrong and wrong headed. Time taught me that it was I who was wrong. The Bible teaches of the dark and fallen aspect of human nature. One only has to look at the carnal pit of the twentieth century in which:

We learned to fly: and to bomb.
We learned chemistry: and to poison our enemies.
We learned mass production: and to make weapons by the train load.
We learned radio: and to broadcast propaganda.
We learned the secrets of the atom: and to find the brink of destruction.
We imagined a worker's paradise: and killed a hundred million people in it.
We imagined eugenics: and unleashed an ocean of blood.

Each new generation learn anew that we must be ever vigilant if we are to survive our own evil.

Religion is not the source of the evil, but rather an attempt to transcend it.

Kenneth – thanks for that. I think there are many like you.

I’m glad you had the courage, or whatever it took, to step down from the pulpit.

I fear there too many others still passing on what they themselves no longer believe.

The Moderate:

The solution is simple. No more human suffering, everyone has everything they want and die peacefully in their sleep.

Oops! Die!? If everyone have everything they want then no one will ever die. Some people don't want to die or let even those not yet alive die.

Maybe there is life after death and everyone can live forever that way? But everyone? I mean, do we must to put up with all these stupid people forever? Isn't there a place where the better class of people can go be it after death and get away from stupid people?

Everyone can't have everything they want because we don't want any stupid people right now only the better class of people. God knows there's lots of stupid people. Why God created them is a mystery but maybe not.

Somebody's got to do all the work for if we have everything work is not included in what we want but the product of work is included.

Maybe we can have a few stupid people right now to do all the work but after we die we can go to a place where God provides us with everything we want and stupid people won't be necessary there?

There's just one solution. End suffering for the better class of people and let stupid people suffer. The stupid ones can do all the work and we can have everything we want until we die. Then the stupid people can just go to hell while we go to heaven and get everything we want without any help from stupid people.

Here's a thought. Why not stop describing people as stupid and learn to get along with everyone. But then we can't have everything I want.

Yep, life's perplexing alright. Not to worry for we're going to die. But we can continue to worry for only the better class of people go to heaven, no stupid people there.

So somewhere some how we must decide who's stupid and who's going to heaven. The only place to find that out is in church with the better class of people.

Oops again. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul tells us the last place to be found if one plans to go to God's heaven is church. And that comes straight form sacred scriptures and therefore its undeniable.

So the bottom line, if we will ever get everything we want is which supernatural being that truly was in the burning bush. We can't have everything we want right now for we must die.

And, if all that isn't bad enough now you tell me that God started Job out early, some kind of head start program for those who intend to spend eternity suffering.

Which one is so, God is a ball of fire or a whirlwind? One could meet God any time and without knowing the distinguishing characteristics of God the likely hood of a mistake is great. One little mistake and hell for sure. There'll be no heaven with everything everyone 'there' wants for those who misidentify God.

I left 'the church', fundamentalist, in my case, twenty-two years ago, after earning a seminary degree and serving seven years in the pulpit. I lost my faith gradually over that period of seven years.

The problem of suffering here on Earth confused me. I remember when a dynamic missionary who was in the States to raise support was killed at a train crossing. How could this be God's will, I wondered. I'd sung the hymn 'God moves in a mysterious way, his wonders to perform'. It certainly seemed mysterious, all right. Whimsical and arbitrary, as well.

I began to question the concept of damnation. How could a loving God create individuals with the knowledge that the great majority would suffer unspeakable anguish eternally? It began to strike me as wicked.

I pondered the doctrine of propitiation at length. You know, how God could be perfectly just and perfectly merciful at the same time. I realized that for an innocent person, Son of God or otherwise, to suffer punishment in the stead of the guilty party is not justice at all. It is the satisfaction of an ancient tribal requirement of blood for blood. The fundamental doctrine on which Christianity is based is baseless.

I still live by the teachings contained in the Sermon on the Mount, which I learned at the feet of my Sunday School teachers. In fact, I take these teachings more seriously than most Christians, I'll venture to say. It might even be said of me that I have a messiah complex...

Amie - my original request was for a yes or no answer which you have yet to supply.

Ehrman's giving up of his faith doesn't sound at all "cheap" to me, in fact, it sounds like he struggled to hold on to it, despite his scholarly knowledge of the Bible.

Here are my next questions to you. In your opinion is there any non-cheap way to give up one's faith? If so, what is it?

You don't have to answer, of course, but I am am really interested in what you have to say.

Dear Realist:

"AMIE

Realist- you gave a partial quote."

Tsk, Tsk. Pretty serious technical foul. Leaving out:

"But how shall I speak of the glories I have since discovered in the Bible? For years I have read it with an ever-broadening sense of joy and inspiration; and I love it as I love no other book."

and presenting a fragment you liked out of context.

OH JEZUS MARIA AT LAST WE HAVE A SMART MAN THAT HAS FIGURED OUT THAT ALL THIS RELIGION IS PURE BS ITS ALL A SCAM ALL UNPROVABLE. ITS A FRAUD RUN BY MOSTLY HOMOPHOBIC MAN THAT ARE AFTER YOUR HARD EARNED $$$$$, GET A LIFE AND THINK FOR YOURSELF AND STAY AWAY FROM THIS HOKUS POKUS!!
YOU WILL BE A MOST HAPPY PERSON!!

Efavor's first question-

"Amie, you say to Bart: "Time and Life may show you that you have not found a "new truth" but only slid into a backwater of despair"

Do you reserve your comforting words only for people who are dying and believe in God?"

Efavor's second question-

"I'd prefer to hear your rationale for suggesting that Erhman might be sliding into a backwater of despair."

I see the weight of my experiences makes you reconsider your original request. Are you afraid of the Truth?

This is why I say Erhman slides into despair: He will not stand up to the ambiguities of life- the shadowlands. He makes giving up his faith sound like a cheap 60s beer commercial:

"I’ve compensated for the loss by intensifying my passion for friends and family and work and trying to enjoy life more. I buy better wine than I used to, better micro-brewed beer, and I eat better food. I think I live life with more of a gusto than I used to."

He rather sit down and drink a Schlitz. I mean that's "real gusto" in a great lite beer..

Amie - I'd prefer to hear your rationale for suggesting that Erhman might be sliding into a backwater of despair.

E Favorite-

I have held the hand of many dying atheists. Would you like to hear some of their stories?

Realist,
The comments you give from Helen Keller are in perfect concord with someone coming to the full understanding of what the bible's chief message is to each of us. And that is we are infected with the eternally fatal inherited disease of sin.
A most "unpleasent detail" and business indeed. the inability to accept this reality is what causes so many to reject the savior for the condition.

Amie, you say to Bart: "Time and Life may show you that you have not found a "new truth" but only slid into a backwater of despair"

Do you reserve your comforting words only for people who are dying and believe in God?

Jim - Exactly what doubts does Bart's lack of consistency raise? Do you think you'd feel this way if he were a believer? Please think about these things. I'd like to hear back from you.

Dear Bart:

Would an all good God would necessarily make all things pleasant, and the livin' easy on human scales, for each one of us, and at all times? But clearly a God who sent His only Son to Earth to be crucified does not do things that way. The God of the Bible, and of Christianity is not the God of Sunday School.

Moreover, we have gained "memory, reason, and skill" to cope, but too often we use it to inflict pain upon each other and ourselves by privations, and by fear. Should we fault God for not making us better creatures?

When Job questioned God about this.

Job 38

Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:

Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

Gird yourself up like a man; for I will demand of you, and you answer Me.

Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if you have the understanding.

Who determined its measure? If you know. Or who marked the lines upon it?

Whereupon were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its corner-stone?

Job could not answer. Perhaps no one can. After all, where were we when God created the universe?

But would you rather skip life, or live it as it really is? If you choose life, you have chosen to accept its blessings and trials together.

May you find peace in your journey.

crewsin:

You desperately need to review, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul before it's too late if it's not too late already. There is but one deadly sin, blasphemy. Even atheists agree on that point.

Now sit down with your Bible and make a list of events in Exodus. Beside each give the event a mark, X it was God and O it was Devil.

If you cannot find it in your heart to acknowledge that Devil is the supernatural being that prompts murder and comes to the aid of murderers then you're probably lost. I know how comforting it is to you to think of all your friends and neighbors being there in hell with you but don't you have any particle of humanity left or have you been completely caught in the evangelical trap?

Yes, calling Devil God makes Devil happy. What does it do for God? Yes, sacrificing the son of God makes Devil happy. What does it do for God? Yes, singing the praises of Devil makes Him happy. What does it do for God? Yes, praying to Devil can help you get what you want when you're not entitled to it -win the big game or defeat your enemies. Does praying God help or has God already given you all you need and praying is an insult, an admission you don't have what it takes?

Three out of four people on earth believe that was God in the burning bush so IT must have been God. I could be wrong you know. Have you ever said that or wondered about the consequences of being wrong? There is but one deadly sin, blasphemy, calling Devil God. Hell awaits the blasphemer.

Can you get away with saying I mean you God yet holding Devil's word, the Holy Bible at the same time? Good luck.

Don't understand why Mr. Ehrman won't name names in one answer and in the very next names a person with whom he clearly disagrees. The lack of consistency raises doubts about the motives of this scholar.

Realist- you gave a partial quote.

Here's the full quote from Helen Keller's book "The Story of My Life":

"But how shall I speak of the glories I have since discovered in the Bible? For years I have read it with an ever-broadening sense of joy and inspiration; and I love it as I love no other book. Still there is much in the Bible against which every instinct of my being rebels, so much that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge which I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention. For my part, I wish, with Mr. Howells, that the literature of the past might be purged of all that is ugly and barbarous in it, although I should object as much as any one to having these great works weakened or falsified."

Thanks Bart,
It's great to hear more common sense on the forum.

Wasn't Hellen Keller an atheist?

"There is so much in the bible against which every insinct of my being rebels, so much so that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention."

-Helen Keller, American lecturer

Regards,
Realist