All Comments (46)

oh jesus pleeze why faith/ learn something usefull instead of all this unproven hokus/pokus! most religions are a scam run by homophobic moneygrabbing ministers/preachers/rabis.
religion is the problem dear readers and not the answer!

The easterners offer a whole variety of very differing doctrines from the experimental atheism of Buddhism/Jainism to the strict theism of Vaishnavism/Sikhism etc.

And there lies the big difference between the Middle-eastern and far-Eastern faiths. The far-easterners have an innate tolerance for experimentation and discovery while the Middle-eastern idea of tolerance is to persecute/crucify/burn(Inquisition
/war(crusade-jihad)/cook(Holocaust) all else and each-other due to their patents on the way to 'heaven'.

Yoga is a method that its inventors claim gets at the following questions:
Who am I (flesh or soul or..)?
Where did I come from (before birth)?
Where am I going?
What is the meaning of life and death?

Do yoga if you have the will to experiment, interest in the above questions and want to attempt finding answers in good health. Else, bye-bye.

I can't speak for other people. But its my own doubt that keeps me searching on different paths on spirituality. I believe that the terrorist, who can be anybody who believes in a religious belief beyound all doubt that it is right to kill people. I don't think its the religion, but his on unshakable belief in his religion.

I have heard and seen people who don't use physical violence, but use harsh words and condemnation of people who believe different then themselves. Again. They have absolute faith in their own religion. I think that if more of us had doubt, that maybe we would all think twice before using violence and or harsh words on people who don't follow our own beliefs.

I also think that religious rituals, traditions, and beliefs are an extremely important part of any religion. But I also think that its what I feel in my heart that counts most.

My God, what a mess! A woman, a Baroness, a member of the House of Lords, a Rabbi; how do you keep all that straight?
I think you may be confused! How could one become spirtually learned and still return to the superstitions of Abraham and his misguided followers? I am truely amazed that Judism has survived; the Jewish holy books are one endless example of the failures of the Jewish people to be true to their so-called religion. Their Kings are eternally corrupt and venal; their prophets lead hopeless lives preaching endlessly about their Gods unforgiveness. Their is story after story of the destruction of tribes, kingdoms, queens, cities, and armies; yet the very next day the Jewish people, king, army are again breaking the laws of GOD. Worshiping BAAL one more time...I guess because dear old Jehovah is such a prudish nut case.

Compared to the Abrahamic religions, the Eastern spirtual ideas are pure and a delight, full of compassion and strength, leading to life not death!

Ahmed
I'll back you up with what my own father told me when I was trying to decide in which religion (mine or their dad's) to raise my children.
"It doesn't matter which one you pick as long as you pick one. You need to give them something to reject."
As parents we can teach them our own traditions, and we can encourage them to take their own spiritual search seriously. At some point the road will have to be their own.

Congratulations, Norrie Hoyt. You have just twisted the truth into a pretzel. : )

Baroness: This is what you said:

"The message is to learn, but not to forget who you are and what you believe."

This statement is true but you have made it from a position of fear. I ecourage my children to go and find their real selves, whoever they may be and when they find that, I ask them to evalaute that and see if they wish to be that or anything else they choose to be. This is called freedom of choice that comes from a positon of unconditional love and not from a positon of fear that they may not become good Muslims, as I once wanted them to be. I wish this freedom for all humanity. It is one thing to be born into a given religion/culture and another to find your true self. Yet I understand fully that ALL roads lead to Rome as they say. It is just some roads take longer and who cares if one is not in a hurry to get to Rome?! Just enjoy the trip and life indeed is a journey, not a destination. Peace.

Baroness: This is what you said:

"The message is to learn, but not to forget who you are and what you believe."

This statement is true but you have made it from a position of fear. I ecourage my children to go and find their real selves, whoever they may be and when they find that, I ask them to evalaute that and see if they wish to be that or anything else they choose to be. This is called freedom of choice that comes from a positon of unconditional love and not from a positon of fear that they may not become good Muslims, as I once wanted them to be. I wish this freedom for all humanity. It is one thing to be born into a given religion/culture and another to find your true self. Yet I understand fully that ALL roads lead to Rome as they say. It is just some roads take longer and who cares if one is not in a hurry to get to Rome?! Just enjoy the trip and life indeed is a journey, not a destination. Peace.

Baroness: This is what you said:

"The message is to learn, but not to forget who you are and what you believe."

This statement is true but you have made it from a position of fear. I ecourage my children to go and find their real selves, whoever they may be and when they find that, I ask them to evalaute that and see if they wish to be that or anything else they choose to be. This is called freedom of choice that comes from a positon of unconditional love and not from a positon of fear that they may not become good Muslims, as I once wanted them to be. I wish this freedom for all humanity. It is one thing to be born into a given religion/culture and another to find your true self. Yet I understand fully that ALL roads lead to Rome as they say. It is just some roads take longer and who cares if one is not in a hurry to get to Rome?! Just enjoy the trip and life indeed is a journey, not a destination. Peace.

No, One Witness, you got it wrong once again, evidently by once again not reading carefully.

Of course I know that Baroness Neuberger is a Jewish Rabbi, not a Christian. Not only is it obvious, but in responding to her last previous essay (God in Details, Which Media Miss) I addressed her as "Rabbi Neuberger".

And it was Rabbi Neuberger who started the conversation about Christians: "So it must be acceptable for a Jew, Christian or Muslim to learn from other faiths to gain spiritual discipline from them."

I simply chose the example of a Christian rather than a Jew or a Muslim, for no particular reason.

You wrote: "And so why do you hang around here? What's your motivation?"
'I see you have kindly answered both questions on another thread: " I've got (a hobby): bashing Xians in these threads." {Posted April 12, 2007 10:25 PM on Colson's Thread)'

One Witness, do you recognize humor when you stumble across it? - I gather not.

Speaking of your motives, why did you start out by, without any cause, hurling an insult at me, in Yiddish for Pete's sake, which you probably didn't expect me to decipher. What was the point of that?

You also wrote: "You seem just a little bit to me to be a person who likes to dish it out, but can't take it."

You may be right, but so what? Or is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? You may also be wrong - all I see is us trading barbs back and forth like badminton. What can't I take?

I can certainly take your fluffy little shuttlecock and bat it back to you.

Finally, you wrote:

"Having performed a verbal act, you should reflect on it... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future."

A useful admonition, that I commend to you for your consideration and reflection.

Ken:

I recommend you go back and study the basics. Fundamentals are always the key to building a new skill.

Ken,

What if the follower's passions/intentions are not corrupt, just different than your standard, cookie-cutter Christian's?

"Christianity and Buddhism at their cores are basically the same. Follow the message, do not follow the messengers."

No, they are fundamentally different. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me." Christianity is about following the messenger who embodies the message, not some abstract and infinitely malleable teaching the follower can bend to fit their own corrupt passions.

Russell,

Here's a granola bar and water. Now go do some yoga.

Guess I better put back the snowcaps then.

I'll go look it up---sigh---

Naw, i'll need the snowcaps. oh, and pass me some whoppers!

Russell D.,

Popcorn will go straight to those hips!

I googled the poem as soon as One Witness mentioned it. But, I have google on standby.

Andrea my dear:

Can't a guy be lazy? It's Friday fer cryin out loud! Geez! Now I gotta go make some more popcorn, DANG!

Russell D.,

You can find it on Google!

Thanks for clearing that up One Witness.

Got a copy of that poem? I'd like to read it

Russell D.,

"One Witness (reason for that name?)"

It's from a poem by Muriel Rukeyser. Thanks for asking.

Norrie Hoyt:

I said "Your posts here to Rabbi Neuberger are telling" because you were lecturing a Rabbi on the foibles of Christianity. Mr. Mark was gracious enough to admit he had "bit the big one" when he followed you and did the same thing.

"I simply asked why you stayed here since you believe the thread is filled with loshon hora."
I posted to bring the above to your attention.

I asked you: "And so why do you hang around here? What's your motivation?"

I see you have kindly answered both questions on another thread: " I've got (a hobby): bashing Xians in these threads." {Posted April 12, 2007 10:25 PM on Colson's Thread)

As far as my saying ""Oy, a balmalocha!" Sorry if it offended you (a man so passionate about his hobby that he mistakes a Rabbi for a Christian) to be called an "expert". You seem just a little bit to me to be a person who likes to dish it out, but can't take it.

Since you profess an affinity for the Buddhist traditions. I hope you will consider embracing them:

Right Speech (samma vaca)

"Having performed a verbal act, you should reflect on it... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future."

Ok, it seems there is a lot of tension between Norrie and One Witness(reason for that name?).
Two points, trying to be heard. Norrie isn't a practicing Buddhist, yet he is sympathetic to the foundations of Buddhism whish I appreciate. If you'd like a better understanding of this One Witness, please look up the Lotus Sutra. It will give you what you need to know.

Christianity and Buddhism at their cores are basically the same. Follow the message, do not follow the messengers. They are the ones that don't deliver it the way it was intended to be received.

One Witness,

You wrote:

"This blog is rampant with loshon hora." [slander, evil tongue, evil language, malicious gossip]

I said: "You're right - so why do you hang around here?"

Then you said: "Ooh.. You agree with me about the unrighteous incivility here AND you'd like to run me off? Think of what you are telling me about yourself."

I didn't say you should be run off this thread - I simply asked why you stayed here since you believe the thread is filled with loshon hora.

To which you replied:

'I still wish these words might be embraced here:
"We celebrate diversity and We celebrate civility."
May G_d grant that happens, and soon, please?'

If that is your wish why did you start out by saying to me:

"Ah, Norrie Hoyt. Your posts here to Rabbi Neuberger are telling. I am enlightened.

"Oy, a balmalocha!"

[Oh, no, what an expert!!!]

Regards, whether you stay here or not.

One Witness:

Who is being uncivil?

Norrie Hoyt:

"You're right - so why do you hang around here?"

Ooh.. You agree with me about the unrighteous incivility here AND you'd like to run me off? Think of what you are telling me about yourself. I guess you are your own informer.

You're clearly not a practicing Buddhist either. You do not practice Right Speech here. Would you like examples? And so why do you hang around here? What's your motivation? "Prejudices are what fools use for reason.” (Voltaire)

I still wish these words might be embraced here:

"We celebrate diversity and We celebrate civility."

May G_d grant that happens, and soon, please?

Au revoir.

Why return?

I found Buddhism Taoism and Yoga are useful and actually make sense.

One Witness,

You're right - so why do you hang around here?

You're clearly not a Buddhist. Right Speech is the third of the eight factors of The Noble Eightfold Path. Loshon hora is definitely not approved!

Et oui, je comprends.

Sorry Steve!!! previous post is mine. I typed your name in the wrong place. Apologies.

After going back and reading Colson's article and all the responses, I do see a lot of rabid comments. However, they weren't from Colson.

Steve b, uk.

In fairness to Colson, he was responding to a question that directly addressed that topic. The question was posed on Feb 28..."What does your faith lead you to believe about gay unions and gay clergy? Could you ever change your mind?"

To quote you, "This may be entirely correct in his brand of Christianity, but it's pretty extreme for a deliberately inter-faith forum. "The bible says so, so everything else is wrong" *is* fairly rabid compared to the comments on today's topic."

After reading his article, I don't see that your summary is accurate. You may disagree with him, but I think he was just honestly presenting the view of conservative christianity.

Norrie Hoyt:

Here are some more nice words for you. This blog is rampant with loshon hora.

Farshtaist?

One Witness,

How about arguing with the point I made instead of tossing an insult?

Nice yiddish word though.

Regards.

Professor Marcus Borg, an On-Faith panelist, has published a book comparing many of the sayings of Jesus to those of Buddha. Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings (2002),

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Buddha-Parallel-Marcus-Borg/dp/1569753180/ref=sr_1_1/104-9896956-2574367?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176392091&sr=1-1 .

An excerpt from the Introduction of the book:

"Most striking of all the parallels between Jesus and Buddha are those dealing with love..."

Ah, Norrie Hoyt. Your posts here to Rabbi Neuberger are telling. I am enlightened.

Oy, a balmalocha!

This relates to some of the other columns, in particular Fr. Reese's admonishment to learn our own faith well before seeking our needs in other traditions. Those who have had to deal with intolerance, narrow-mindedness and ignorance in their own community may feel relief at finding "better" practices elsewhere. In doing so they must be careful not to concede entire broad belief systems to their most extreme or distasteful (or loudest) practitioners. I am not willing to concede my own Abrahamic inheritance to the Pat Robertsons, Ayatollah Khomeinis and Meyer Kahanes of this world. In some eyes, that might make me a bad Christian, but I find fundamentalists much scarier than Buddhists, Hindus or Wiccans.

Shawn B:
Well, when I say 'rabid' I perhaps mean more the strength to which he clings to a very narrow definition, and tells everyone else they're wrong.

For example:
"I would not be free to change my mind (on gays) since the biblical teaching is clear, as is the accumulated wisdom of centuries of human experience." "Gay unions violate the natural created order in which man and woman join in holy union to bear and raise children. Homosexuality, like many other behaviors, violates this order." "We know our only hope is in Jesus Christ."

This may be entirely correct in his brand of Christianity, but it's pretty extreme for a deliberately inter-faith forum. "The bible says so, so everything else is wrong" *is* fairly rabid compared to the comments on today's topic.

Ba'al: "I am trying to figure out what would be the tragedy if somebody exchanged one faith for another (or some way of knowing not based on faith)."

Maybe it has to do with an implicit agreement among clergy - not to steal from other faiths, but to encourage everyone to have a faith, to keep the operation going.

I am trying to figure out what would be the tragedy if somebody exchanged one faith for another (or some way of knowing not based on faith). If you find something better, that means you don't believe what you believed before, so why bother to return? The Baroness is having the vapors as if she expects society to collapse at the prospect.

ALM wrote:
"BTW, in the interests of clarity I want to point out that Julia Neuberger is a RABBI! Therefore her column would NOT be written from a Christian point of view."

Good point. I really bit the big one, didn't I? I singled out the Xians because they seem to be the only faith out there with a mandate to convert people to their cause.

Let me ask the question in a non-denominational way: should anyone who converts to a religion be expected to return to their "own faith" at a later date?

"No single faith has a monopoly on the truth"

I'd complain about the rest of your post, but I'm just so happy to see this line.

It'd get you killed in several countries of the world today, of course, and is the biggest reason we need these forums at all. But it's still true, and thank you for saying it.

Now, if we could just get some of the more rabid columnists like Cal Thomas and Chuck Colson to believe it...

-Yawn-

ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

BTW, in the interests of clarity I want to point out that Julia Neuberger is a RABBI! Therefore her column would NOT be written from a Christian point of view.

It may well be that someone seeking God may find that a path other than the tradition one is first exposed to is suitable to them. One must let oneself be guided by the Holy Spirit (and in other traditions, of course, the Holy Spirit, goes by other names,)and be sincere in that seeking. God will not let such a person down.

It so happens that I practiced an Eastern path for thirty years before being called by the Holy Spirit to Christ. My husband, on the other hand, remains in this Eastern path which he practices with devotion. I see no need to nudge him over to Christianity, which was the religion of his youth.

P.S.: That is to say, Buddhism can encompass and understand Christianity in all of its aspects, while Christianity cannot encompass or fully understand Buddhism.

I'm sorry, but your column makes absolutely no sense.

Are you telling non-Xians that - should they convert to Xianity - they should be sure to renounce their Xian faith and return to their "own faith?" If that's the case, shouldn't the missionaries responsible for making such conversions be required to hold a kind of exit interview with their converts to insure that they return to their "own faith," and ASAP?

I'll go out on a limb here: I get the feeling that your column is written from a Xian - not an ecumenical - persepective; that the message of your column is directed specifically at Xians, and that your message is, "you may experiment with other religions, but if you care about your soul, you best be getting back to your 'own faith' (ie: Xianity) at some point."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Care to elaborate?

With all respect, Baroness, if a Christian were to attain a high level of Buddhist awareness, it would change his/her understanding of Christianity.

He/She would likely see Christianity as essentially identical to every other object and manifestation in the universe from a tree to a Pope.

That is, as having a certain appearance in the world of everyday reality, and a very different appearance in the world of absolute reality, which reveals the former appearance to be an illusion, lacking any inherent identity that corresponds to what it initially appeared to be.