All Comments (18)

Soja wrote:

"Wouldn't God expect us to remain open to the truth of science and the changed circumstances we live in..."

Truth of science - people cannot "blindly" believe science, just as they cannont blindly believe religion. Believing the scientific community when they say that water is made up from hydrogen and oxygen is different than believing them when the say that they have a theory about something. Theories are speculations, assumptions, beliefs. Until something is proven as fact, it is still only another thing people choose to believe or not to believe. "Big Bang theory", "Theory of Evolution", "nature theory of homosexuality"; all are theories which have not been proven as truth.

Soja John,

How did you conclude that the Bible forbids only gay dalliances by straights, as opposed to relations between gays? From my reading, the Bible rejects the idea of sexual orientation.

I've noticed that many people seem to see orientation as defined by the act and not the other way around. Like if you're a married person and you have a homosexual encounter, that makes you gay forever. I'm not sure if these people mean "gay" in the classification sense or in the "once you go gay you never go back" sense.

Also, I agree completely with your "bottom line of all morality."

I Corinthians 6:9-11:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicaters, nor idolitors, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkerds, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
King James Version of the Holy Bible

Praise be to God for His Son Jesus Christ, who died for our sins, rose again and prepared the way; (through repentance and belief); so that we can be forgiven, born again, not in the desires of our old sinful nature, but in a new nature: cleansed, and set free from the power of sin and death

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicaters, nor idolitors, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkerds, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
King James Version of the Holy Bible

Praise be to God for His Son Jesus Christ, who died for our sins, rose again and prepared the way; (through repentance and belief); so that we can be forgiven, born again, not in the desires of our

A naval take:

Six days a week you'll work, and do all that you are able,
And on the Sabbath, holy stone the deck and scrape the cable.

Addendum:

We follow some commands from the Old Testament and ignore the others because of the knowledge we have gained and the way our consciousness has developed over time, don't we? Isn't it right and proper for us to use the reasoning God has given us? Isn't the bottom line of all morality -do not hurt yourself, do not hurt anyone else? Wouldn't God expect us to remain open to the truth of science and the changed circumstances we live in, while at the same time following the bottom line - do not hurt yourself or another?

The verse in the book of Leviticus that condemns homosexuality, along with other instructions on how to live one's life:

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:9,10)

Leviticus 19:15,18,19,27,32,33:

Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favouritism to the great, but judge your neighbour fairly.

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbour as yourself.

Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere you God.

When an alien lives with you in your land, do not ill-treat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Exodus 35:2,3

For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

P.S. to anonymous:

I'm not a liberal in anybody's camp. Liberals generally make me tired. They can't think in principles, they think in emotions. Even when they're right (about half the time; conservatives are right the other half), they can't prove it.

FYI:

Bazemore PH, Wilson WH, Bigelow DA, on homosexuality:

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3359.htm

I have every respect for your religious faith. It's your religious faith that has no respect for our rights, paricularly our right to disagree with your religious faith.

No, wait! I get it! It just came to me: by "respect" you mean, bowing down, shutting up, asking no questions. Hah. Why didn't I see it?

Well, by that definition, no, I don't have "respect."

Connoley: Hey smart guy, I have an opinion just like you. Who is talking about rights? You liberal flamers have no respect for our religious faith.

Dear Baroness Neuberger

I applaud your compassionate stand and the compassionate stand of liberal Jews on homosexuals. It is particularly important because Christians who interpret the Bible literally in their own way find themselves quoting The Old Testament over and over again to justify their views. As a liberal Catholic (born and baptised in the Syro-Malabar Catholic church), I believe Jesus Christ is the ideal of compassion Christians should be looking up to. How sad it is when believers of any stripe believe that God stopped speaking to mankind after He spoke through the prophets and some holy men. We all believe in a living God, who cares for human beings and speaks through people of good will at all times in history, not in a God one who was frozen in time and fossilised when Scripture was formulated. So it is important for liberals like you to speak up as the voice of God speaking through human beings in this day and age, in response to the needs of our society today.

You have pointed out rightly that obsession with sexuality doesn’t do the reputation of religions much good, especially when supposed morality takes inhuman forms as is the case with persecution of homosexuals and denying them basic human rights. Since most uninformed people seem to lump all homosexual behaviour in one pot, it is vital that you have drawn a clear line between healthy homosexual behaviour (monogamous relationships between consenting adult homosexuals) and homosexual behaviour that hurts the person concerned or an innocent other (promiscuity, sexual exploitation of any kind, sex that hurts anyone physically or emotionally, and sexual crime like paedophilia which destroys the life of an innocent child).

Reading the Old and New Testament reference to homosexuality, what stands out in my mind is that no reference is made to normal homosexual behaviour. What is being condemned is only the behaviour of HETEROSEXUALS who practise homosexual behaviour for hedonistic reasons, or uncontrolled and unethical forms of homosexual behaviour. Noteworthy is the fact that out of Ten Commandments, two of them refer to the behaviour expected of married people – no adultery and not even coveting of the partner of another - and NO mention whatsoever is made of homosexuality. Jesus didn’t mention homosexuality either. Paul’s admonition of homosexual behaviour is mentioned in reference to heterosexuals exchanging their NATURAL relations and resorting to homosexual behaviour.

But in the current debate raging about homosexual rights, we, as heterosexuals and believers are concerned about the physical, emotional and spiritual welfare of homosexuals who do not choose their sexual orientation and deserve to be treated with the same dignity and be given the same rights to happiness as all heterosexuals. Thank you for using your powerful voice to support those who desperately need our genuine love and support as heterosexuals and children of the same living God.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Wow! This "On Faith" website is really educational. I'm learning more about the anus and rectum than I ever thought I would know. My question, though, is about the Bible and "biblio-centric" (Halakhic, in the Jewish tradition) morality. Leviticus contains an express prohibition against male homosexuality. So how can anyone following biblical laws or commandments find homosexual behavior to be acceptable?

Anonymous:

You certainly have every right to keep your anus free of penises, and the right to resist with all necessary force anyone who would violate that right.

You don't have the right to dictate what other people do with their anuses (penises, vulvas, hands, mouths).

Technical note: the pushing of waste will not be an issue in most cases. The waste mostly doesn't reside in the rectum, and any left after defecation will retreat back into the colon within half an hour.

nick: Hey smart guy; took out my college biology book. Guess what I discovered? The anus is the posterior opening of the alimentary canal for the purpose of excreting human waste. Yup, you got it right, smart guy, I am terrifed of some nasty penis in my anus pushing that excrement back into my large intestines. Prisoner of a corrupt religious morality? You are a prisoner of your own argument by making value judgments as well. Ludicrous prurience? You have no idea what you just said. You can always spot a liberal, full of hostility towards religious values Go away flamer!

As Ms. Neuberger says, she speaks for liberal, non-orthodox (can we all say "reformed"?) Judaism in the UK. Her views are not those of all of Judaism, as she belongs to yet another religious group that interprets the meaning and origin of the Torah to suit their own needs and desires.

There is a big difference between welcoming gay people into your synagogues, and considering their homosexual relationships to be normal and acceptable for marriage. What, Ms. Neuberger, do you say to the brother and sister, who are very much in love, have sex regularly, and want to be married? (Or the 2 brothers, or 2 sisters for that matter). Oh, right, you say "Where we draw the line is where active cruelty or exploitation are part of what motivates someone in their sexual behavior-- so no to sadists, pedophiles, and anyone else whose sexual behavior challenges our ideas about love, fidelity and creating a home in which the worship of God can be a key element." Sounds like polygamy must be OK then too.

Dear Anonymous,

How does anal sex devalue a person who derives immense pleasure from giving and/or receiving it? You guessed it, smart guy, IT DOESN'T. What you have done is made a value judgement because you are terrified of anuses, terrified of sex, and a prisoner of a corrupt religious morality. For people that know what they're doing,(and this is a lot of people) anal sex is the bomb. Keep your ludicrous prurience to yourself.

Ms. Neuberger, reagrding your fourth paragraph above. You speak of promiscuous behavior as devaluing a person...hmmm, Mam'm (this is going to be xxx-rated) inserting a penis in the anus of anyone is devaluing a person, period!! it has nothing to do with promiscuous behavior.

"For those of us who are non-orthodox, and who believe that the Torah is not utterly immutably divine, but a work written by human beings, divinely inspired though they may have been at least some of the time, this is not such a hard question."

Hey! A reasonable person! You're right, madame. This question is NOT hard for reasonable people. Kudos to you for being one.