All Comments (138)

Victoria:
This space us for comments, not for lengthy excerpts plagiarized from somebody else's work. Don't you have any thoughts of your own you would like to share with us?

Victoria:
This space us for comments, not for lengthy excerpts plagiarized from somebody else's work. Don't you have any thoughts of your own you would like to share with us?

Victoria,

Thank you for the research.

This from the Encyclopedia Britannica addresses my question about the Covenant with Islam.

"Covenants (mithaq, 'ahd) were of great importance in the formative period of Islam (7th century AD, or 1st century AH—after the Hijrah [Hegira], Muhammad's flight from Mecca to Medina). More than 700 verses of the Qur'an, the Muslim sacred scripture, have to do with various aspects of covenant relationships. As one recent Muslim writer, Sayyid Qutb, states, Islam combines both the Old and the New Testaments (covenants) and the Last Covenant, of Islam, as well. All revelation from Adam to Muhammad is regarded by Muslims as a unit, mediated through a series of prophets, or messengers, with whom God made a covenant: Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Though the concept is difficult, it seems that the prophet in each case was given a revelation and a religion to which he covenanted with God to witness faithfully. This concept of a covenant of the prophets conveys the conviction of the unity of revelation as well as the unity of God in past history."

In the period from 800 to 1400, Jewish and Muslim philosophical and ethical thought were very close. Learned men from both traditions studied each others works and learned from them.

this is rather long but posibly good for what you asked-

Qur'an Teaches Peaceful Dialogue
A Muslim is encouraged to carry out an intellectual dialogue with the People of the Book to establish and improve relations. Following are two examples:

"Say O people of the Book! Come to common terms as between us and you that we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, lords and patrons other than God. If then they turn back, say: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will)." Qur'an, 3:64.

"Say: We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another." Qur'an, 3:84.

After all, it is an integral part of Muslim's faith to honor Prophets Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all other prophets of God, and follow their teachings.

Acceptance and Understanding
Islam teaches the Muslim to be kind, tolerant and understanding, and to establish fraternity among all people. The Qur'an tells us that God has made people into nations and tribes in order to know and deal with each other in kindness, and that the best of us is he who is more pious than others.

"O humankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know and deal with each other in kindness (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God (is he who is) the most righteous of you, and God is Knower, Aware." Qur'an, 49:13.

Thus, Islam bases people's relational conduct on kindness. Hence, it condemns intolerance, prejudice and bigotry, and rejects discrimination based on color, creed, national origin or religion.

The Muslim acceptance applies to all elements of life and must reflect in all of the Muslim's affairs. The teaching of Islam towards proper behavior, anger control, patience, treatment of spouse, parent, neighbor, the young and the old, the friend, the enemy, the environment and specifically the People of the Book are evident in the Holy Qur'an and the life and example of the Prophet Muhammad (p).
In calling people to the Islamic Faith, for example, a Muslim must be wise, sensitive, humble and considerate. The Qur'an teaches:

"Invite (all) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and discuss with them in ways that are best and most gracious." Qur'an, 16:25.

The Muslim's acceptance of the Jews and Christians, is even more intense and specifically addresses the Muslims to prevent any communication or approach that would lead to dispute, anger or negative implication between the two parties. Allah instructs the Muslims:

"And dispute not with People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong and injury." Qur'an, 29:46.

The Prophet (p) also said:

"Let it be known, if any one (Muslim) commits injustice, insults, aggravates, mistreats or abuses a person of the People of the Book (protected, by the state or an agreement), he will have to answer me (for his immoral action) on the Day of Judgment." Izzeddin Blaque, Minhaj Alsaliheen, Page 106.

Thus, the lack of tolerance towards the non-Muslims under Islamic rule is a grave offense.

Does Islam Approve Terrorism?
Absolutely not. The human sole is sacred and highly protected in Islam. As discussed earlier God created people and made them nations and tribes to deal with each other in kindness and that God's criterion of differentiation among people is piety. Islam does not tolerate bloodshed, prejudice or discriminatory actions. God tells us in the Holy Qur'an:

"If any one kill a person, it would be as if he kill the whole people, and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole people." Qur'an, 5:32.

What could be stronger condemnation for assassination of an individual than equating it with slaying all of human kind, and a greater reward for saving a life than equating it with saving the lives of all people? The indiscriminate killing of people is prohibited in the Islamic Faith irrespective of the mechanism used for killing. The Prophet Muhammad is reported to have said:

"Whoever fights under an erratic irrational banner, buffs up angry for a particular (irrational) group or promotes (irrational) group, or supports (irrational) group and died in that cause, he died as a disbeliever, and whoever indiscriminately attacks my people killing the righteous and the wicked of them, sparing not (even) those with whom is a covenant (such as Jews and Christians "People of Book" and other ), and not fulfilling the promises made with those who have been given a pledge of a security--he belongs not to me and I belong not to him." Muslim, Tradition # 3436.

As an extension of saving the human soul from accidental death, and to promote a healthy community, this verse lays out the rule of safety in all domains of life. Islam promotes safety regulations in traffic and public places, calls for providing safety measures for children such as providing medicine in child-proof-bottles, institutes safety measures in all industrial, agricultural and commercial initiatives as well as in public and private undertaking, such as streets, housings, and dams. Indirectly, this safety rule protects the ecological system and promotes cleaner and healthier environment for all the creations of God.

Does the Islamic Faith order Muslims to kill Westerners or Christians and Jews?
Absolutely not, this is a myth. Islam does not in any way approve of the killing of innocent people, weather they are Christians, Jews or of any faith or philosophy. Prophet Muhammad said:

"Whoever kills a person of the People of Covenant (such as Jews, and Christian or people of others creeds or philosophy) with whom there is a covenant between them and Muslims, he or she will not enter Paradise." Bukhari, Tradition # 2930.

This myth about Muslims entering Paradise by killing Christians or Jews or Westerners, may have been a misinterpretation of the saying of Prophet Muhammad "All those who die today will enter Paradise," during the Battle of Badr. Let me shed some lights surrounding this matter.
The Battle of Badr was the first battle to take place between the Muslims and the Pagans. The battle took place in the first year after the Prophet migrated to Medina, 623 AD, escaping the torture and execution of Muslims by the Pagan Quraysh tribes. In Medina, the Prophet joined his followers, who were similarly driven out of Mecca leaving behind their families, homes, and belongings, much of which was confiscated by Quraysh. The Muslims learned about a caravan of goods belonging to Quraysh coming from Syria into Mecca. The Prophet and his companions decided to intercept the caravan and disallow it to reach Quraysh. The Prophet and three hundred of his people left the city to intercept the caravan. The Prophet had no intention to enter into a battle of any kind. The Meccans learned about the Muslim's intention of intercepting the caravan, summoned themselves and made an army of one thousand people to go and save the caravan from the Muslims. Meanwhile, the leader of the caravan, Abu Sufian learned of the Muslim's move, therefore changed the route of the caravan and escaped the Muslims into Mecca safely. Quraysh with its might force of one thousand men and women refused to return to Mecca before they fight the Muslims and parish them.

It was here, where Muslims were few and were not equipped to go into war, the Prophet said: "All those who die today will enter Paradise." Although, the saying can take several different interpretations, but none of them can be interpreted as saying, "if you kill a Christian or a Jew or a Westerner you will enter Paradise."
First, the Prophet was facing the Pagans of Mecca, not Christians or Jews or Westerners. Second, the Prophet's word "today" limits the act of entering Paradise by dyeing to those who would die that day only. Thirdly, the words of the Prophet are in defense, not for attack. The Prophet said: "All those who die (in self defense) will enter Paradise." He did not say , 'all those who kill will enter Paradise'. This is in line with the philosophy of Islam regarding prevention of bloodshed and war.
How can this quotation of the Prophet be twisted to mean the killing of Westerners? On the contrary, the Muslims and the Jews joined each other few months earlier and formed an alliance to defend the city of Medina against the Pagans. Furthermore, prior to this, Prophet Muhammad had sent his followers to Abyssinia, escaping Quraysh's execution and to be protected by its Christian King, Negus. Nine years before this Battle and for many more years to come, the Muslims and Christians were allied. This was and still is the policy of Islam regarding the People of the Book, Christians and Jews.
Second, the Islamic philosophy of martyrdom entering paradise is no different than the concept of martyrdom in Christianity. This philosophy too cannot be interpreted as a permission to kill Christians, Jews, Westerners or any human being.

The Constitution of Medina
The Constitution of Medina is a magnificent historical document, authored and dictated by Prophet Muhammad (p) as the law of a land inhabited by different ethnic groups and nationalities. This document constituted the law to ever govern unified Jews and Muslims in a single state. This historical manifestation established, political rights, citizen obligations, freedom of belief, freedom of speech and trade, the sanctity of life, the prohibition of bloodshed and crime, and the laws of municipalities and justice. The document also secured and promoted cooperation and fraternity among all people of any creed, color, ethnicity, and lineage, and sets out the criterion of righteousness as the base of distinction.

In the year 622 CE, Prophet Muhammad (p) migrated from Mecca to Medina ending a 13 years of strive calling the people of Quraysh (a large governing tribe in Mecca) to Islam, and escaping their latest plot to assassinate him. Here in the city of Medina, where he had already made many supporters some of whom had migrated earlier from Mecca (the Emigrants) and others who received Islam and accepted it in Medina (the Helpers).
The city of Medina and its surrounding area was home to many Jewish and Arabian tribes. Resident in the city were also people of different national origins including Romans, Persians and Ethiopians. This community of multi-religious beliefs and nationalities was subjected to a new pluralistic law.
During his first year in Medina, Prophet Muhammad (p) laid out the principles of a pluralistic constitution that ruled the city of Medina for the next decade and later extended to Arabia and the Islamic Empire. The new constitution established the unity and brotherhood between the Emigrants and the Helpers, instituted the rights and equality of every citizen before the law, and freedom of religion, trade and speech. The constitution also spelled out the political rights and duties of both the Jews and Muslims to protect each other and their city from their enemies and to uphold justice and promote ethical conduct.

Note: Similar to local city and county governments in the west today, the pre Islamic tribal structure was that each tribe constituted a local autonomy. Each tribe had a leader that kept agreements with other tribes, set and enforced the law in its territory. Note also that all the parties to this document endorsed it, including the eleven Jewish tribes that were resident in the area. The text of this translation is copied as a hole from the book, Sunshine at Madinah, published by Islamic Publication International. Also see Minhaj Alsaliheen, Page 777, and Albidayah wa Alnihayah, Volume 3, Page 177.
The following is an English translation of the Constitution of Medina, as recorded by Ibn Hisham. No attempt is made to follow literally the lay-out of the original. On the contrary, we have, in places, deliberately departed from the original paragraphing, and added numeral prefixes to the main paragraphs of the translation, for the purposes of easy reference and understanding:

"The Messenger of God wrote document (Stipulating the relationship) between Immigrants and Helpers, in which he made peace with the Jews and pledged himself to them that they will be established in security regarding their religion, wealth and property. He pledged to honor certain rights for them and demanded that they fulfill certain obligations." The Constitution of Medina reads:

1. In the name of Allah the Compassionate the Most Merciful. This is a document dictated by Muhammad the Prophet (p) (governing the relations) between the believers and Muslims from Quraysh and Yathrib (Medina), and those who followed and joined them and strove with them. They are one nation, distinct from all nations. The Immigrants from Quraysh, according to their established customs are bound together and shall ransom their prisoners in the kindness and justice common among believers.
2. The Banu 'Awf (a Jewish tribe), according to their established customs, are bound together as before, each group shall ransom their prisoners in the kindness and justice common among believers. The Banu Sa'idah, the Banu al-Harith, The Banu Jushm and the Banu an-Najjar (Jewish tribes) are likewise.
3. The Banu 'Amr ibn 'Awf, the Banu an-Nabeet, and the Banu al-Aws (Jewish tribes) likewise.
4. Believers shall not leave anyone among them in destitution by failing to give for him redemption money or blood-wit in kindness.
5. A believer shall not take as an ally a freed man of another believer against him.
6. The God-fearing believers shall be against who ever rebels or him who seeks to spread injustice, or sin or aggression or spread enmity between believers; the hands of everyone of them shall be together against him, even if he be a son of one of them.
7. A believer shall not slay a believer for the sake of an unbeliever nor shall he aid an unbeliever against a believer.
8. The bond of God is one, the least of them (believers) may give protection (to a stranger) on behalf of them. Believers are protectors one of another, to the exclusion of outsiders.
9. The Jew who follows us is surely entitled to our support and the same equal rights as any one of us. He shall not be wronged nor his enemy be assisted.
10. The peace of believers is one and indivisible; no believer shall make a separate peace without other believers, when they are engaged in war in the way of God, except when conditions are deemed fair and equitable to all.
11. In every foray, a rider must take another behind him. The believers must avenge the blood of one another, if anyone of them fails fighting in the cause of God. The God-fearing believers follow the best and most upright guidance.
12. No polytheist shall take the property or person of Quraysh under his protection nor shall he intervene on their behalf against a believer.
13. Whoever is convicted of deliberately killing a believer without legitimate cause, shall be liable to retaliation, unless the next of kin is satisfied (with blood money). The believers shall all be against him, and they are bound to keep him under their custody (until either the next of kin is satisfied or retaliation takes place).
14. It shall not be lawful to a believer who has accepted this document as binding, and who believes in God and the last day, to help an evil-doer or to shelter him. The curse of God and His anger on the Day of Resurrection will be upon him if he does, and neither repentance nor ransom will be received from him.
15. Whenever you have a disagreement amongst you, it must be referred to God and Muhammad.
16. The Jews shall contribute to the cost of war, so long as they are fighting alongside the believers.
17. The Jews of Banu 'Awf are one nation with the Muslims; the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs, their freedmen and their persons shall be protected except those who behave unjustly or sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families. The same applies to the Jews of Banu an-Najjar, Banu al-Harith, Banu Sa'idah, Banu Jusham, Banu al-Aws, Banu Tha'labah, and the Jafnah, clan of the Tha'labah and Banu al-Shua'ibah. Doing good deeds is a protection against sinfulness. The freedmen of Tha'labah are as themselves. The close friends of the Jews are as themselves.
18. None of them shall go out to war, save with the permission of Muhammad. But none shall be prevented from taking revenge for a wound inflicted upon him. Whoever kills a man, kills himself and his household, unless it be one who has wronged him, for God would accept that.
19. The Jews must bear their expenses and the Muslims bear theirs. Each must help the other against anyone who attacks the people of this document. Their condition must be one of mutual advice, consultation and charity rather than harm and aggression.
20. No man is liable for a crime committed by his ally. Support must be given to him who is wronged. The Jews must spend of their wealth, along with the believers, so long as fighting continues.
21. Yathrib (Medina) shall be a sanctuary for the people of this document. A stranger under protection shall be as his protecting host, unharmed and committing no crime. A woman shall not be given protection without the consent of her family.
22. If any dispute likely to cause trouble should arise among the people of this document, it must be referred to God, and to Muhammad.
23. God approves and is pleased with the piety and goodness in this document.
24. Quraysh and their helpers shall not be given protection.
25. The people of this document are bound to help one another against any attack on Yathrib. If they are called to make peace and maintain it, they must do so; and if they make a similar demand on the Muslims, it must be carried out except with one who insists on fighting against their religion.
26. To every small group belongs the share which is their due as members of the larger group which is party to this covenant. The Jews of the Aws and their clients, are entitled to the same rights as any other party to this document, together with the goodness and charity from all parties to it. Charity and good deeds exclude sinfulness and wrongdoing.
27. There is no responsibility except for one's own deeds.
28. God approves of such truth and goodness as is included in this document.
29. This document shall not constitute any protection for the unjust or the wrongdoers.
30. Whoever goes out to fight or stays at home is safe in the city, unless he has committed an injustice or a crime. God is the protector of whoever honors his commitment to this document, and is God-fearing and so is Muhammad, the Messenger of God.

Other Historical Accounts
Looking into the early Islamic and later history, one runs across many examples of Islamic and Jewish acceptance and collaboration. Following are some of these examples.

A - The Prophet (p) Stands up in Respect for a Jew's Funeral
Historians (see Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1311) report that as a funeral of a Jew passed before Prophet Muhammad (p), as a sign of respect he stood up. In doing this, he showed respect and shared in the feeling of sorrow with Jewish family and community. "Why did you stand up for a Jewish funeral?" he was asked. The Prophet replied: "Is it not a human soul?"

B - The Prophet (p) Visits his Jewish Sick Neighbor
Upon learning of the sickness of his Jewish neighbor, Prophet Muhammad (p) paid him a visit. During the visit the Prophet asked the young man to accept Islam. The young man looked at his father for a permission. The father assented and the young man accepted Islam. (see Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1356).

C - The Prophet's (p) Marriage to a Jewish Lady
Getting closer to others, and making your enemy your friend is the way of Prophet Muhammad (p). To accomplish this, Prophet Muhammad (p) utilized the traditional Arabian way of making alliance through marriage. Any time a person marries from a clan outside of his own, he becomes honored by every member of the clan, and protected by the entire tribe of the bride. To show his nearness and trustworthiness to the Jews, he married one of their own. Her name was Sufiah Bint Alnudair, the daughter of the leader of the Nudair tribe.

D - Harmony is a Goal for Every Muslim
In the year 627 CE, Quraysh of Mecca marched with thousands of men and women of Quraysh along with many other Arabian tribes to attack the Prophet Muhammad in Medina and wipe out the Muslims for good. As you have seen earlier, the Muslims and the Jewish tribes had agreed to protect their city against Quraysh.

Learning about Quraysh preparation to attack their city, the Muslims decided to dig a trench around the city to slow and confuse the enemy. After Quraysh and its allies arrived and camped outside Medina, they sent one of their tribal leaders, Huyay bin Akhtab Alnudairy to the Jewish tribe of Qurathah to entice them to break their agreement with the Muhammad and to join them in attacking the Muslims. Knowing Quraysh's intention, the Jewish tribe of Quraythah closed their castle gates and did not allow Huyay to enter the castle. Calling the tribe leader, Ka'ab bin Asad from outside the walls of the castle and insisting to speak to him proved to be another failure. Determined to speak to Ka'ab over the next several days, Huyay was finally permitted to enter into the castle. The tribe leader Ka'ib, however, told him" You are a cursed man, and I have an agreement with Muhammad that I am not breaking. I have not seen of him any thing other than trustworthiness and fulfillment of promise". Upon this Huyay had left disappointed.
It was reported , however that Huyay was not contended by this, but insisted on returning to Ka'ab with lucrative proposals and protection from Quraysh against Muhammad, until he changed his mind. See Ibn Katheer, Albidayah Wa Alnihayah, Volum 4, page 84.
Although it is unfortunate that Ka'ab broke the truce with Prophet Muhammad (p), this example is a proof of the extent of cooperation and good relation that took place between the Muslims and the Jews during this early period. Furthermore, this example is representative of the good relation, not hostility that both the Jews and Muslims experienced during this period of the rise of Islam.

E - Natural Feeling of a Jew Towards the Prophecy of Muhammad (p)
For several days, at the outskirts of Medina, awaiting eagerly the arrival of Prophet Muhammad (p) and his companion from Mecca, was a small group of Muslims. Also near by was a Jew, Abdullah Bin Salaam, picking dates off a palm tree with his aunt on the ground assisting him. Abdullah was in a better position to spot the incoming from a far distance. Therefore, he was the first to see the Prophet and his companion coming. Upon this, he became overwhelmed with excitement, calling loudly, "Muhammad has arrived, God is great!" Upon this, his aunt told him to quiet down saying, "If he was Moses son of Imran, you would not have shouted as loud." Abdullah responded, "Oh my aunt by Allah, he is (only) the brother of Moses, son of Imran and is on his faith." She asked, "Is he the expected Prophet we have been told about (in the Torah)?" He said, "Yes."
This historical event is only a natural reflection of what is in the inner-hearts of many of the true believers in God. Abdullah and other Jewish leaders and individuals accepted Islam along with many Arabian tribes resident in the city of Medina. -(see A. Alhalabi, Alsirah Alhalabiyah, Volum 2, page 121).

F - Protectors of the Jews
Jewish communities in Anatolia flourished and continued to prosper throughout the Ottomans anconquest. When the Ottomans captured Busra in 1324 and made it their capital, they found a Jewish community oppressed under Byzantine rule. The Jews welcomed the ottomans as saviors. Sultan Orhan gave them permission to build the Etz ha-Hayyim (Tree of Life) synagogue which remained in service until 50 years ago.
Early in the 14th century, when the Ottomans had established their capital at Edirne, Jews from Europe, including Karaites, migrated there.-(Mark Allen Epstein, The Ottoman Jewish Communities and their Role in the 15th and 16th Centuries.) Similarly, Jews expelled from Hungary in 1376, from France by Charles VI in September 1394, and from Sicily early in the 15th century found refuge in the Ottoman Empire. In the 1420s, Jews from Salonika then under Venetian control fled to Edirne. -(Josef Nehama, Histoire des Israeliies de Salonique.)
Ottoman rule was much kinder than Byzantine rule had been. In fact, from the early 15th century on, the Ottomans actively encouraged Jewish immigration. A letter sent by Rabbi Yitzhak Safati (from Edirne) to Jewish communities in Europe in the first part of the century "invited his coreligionists to leave the torments they were enduring in Christendom and to seek safety and prosperity in Turkey." -(Bernard Lewis, The Jews of Islam.)
When Mehmet II "the Conqueror" took Constantinople in 1453, he encountered an oppressed Romaniot (Byzantine) Jewish community which welcomed him with enthusiasm. Sultan Mehmet II issued a proclamation to all Jews " to ascend the site of the Imperial Throne, to dwell in the best of the land, each beneath his Dine and his fig tree, with silver and with gold, with wealth and with cattle…." -( Encyclopedia Judaica, Volume 16 page1532.) In 1470, Jews expelled from Bavaria by Ludvig X found refuge in the Ottoman Empire. -(Avram Galante, Histiore des Juifs d'Istanbul, Volume 2.)
On the midnight of August 2nd 1492, when Columbus embarked on what would become his most famous expedition to the New World, his fleet departed from the relatively unknown seaport of Palos because the shipping lanes of Cadiz and Seville were clogged with Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain by the Edict of Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand of Spain.

Sultan Bayazid II's offer of refuge gave new hope to the persecuted Sephardim. In 1492, the Sultan ordered the governors of the provinces of the Ottoman Empire "not to refuse the Jews entry or cause them difficulties, but to receive them cordially." -(Abraham Danon, in the Review Yossef Daath No.4.) According to Bernard Lewis, "the Jews were not just permitted to settle in the Ottoman lands, but were encouraged, assisted and sometimes even compelled."

Immanual Abobab attributes to Bayazid II the famous remark that "the Catholic monarch Ferdinand was wrongly considered as wise, since he impoverished Spain by the expulsion of the Jews, and enriched Turkey." -(Immanual Abobab, A Consolacam as Tribulacoes de Israel, III Israel.)
Over the centuries an increasing number of European Jews, escaping persecution in their native countries, settled in the Ottoman Empire. In 1537 the Jews expelled from Apulia (Italy) after the city fell under Papal control and, in 1542 those expelled from Bohemia by King Ferdinand found a safe haven in the Ottoman Empire. -(H. Graetz, History of the Jews.) In March of 1556, Sultan Sulayman "the Magnificent" wrote a letter to Pope Paul IV asking for immediate release of the Acona Marranos, whom he declared to be Ottoman citizens. The Pope had no alternative but to release them, the Ottoman Empire being the "Superpower" of that time.

In his book, More in Common than you Think, Bridge Between Islam and Christianity, Dr. William Baker elaborates about the fact that Muslims view the Torah and the New Testament as inspired revelations of God and that Islam neither targeted the Jews nor Judaism. He said, "It is a fact of history that when the Jews were being persecuted in Europe during the middle ages they found peace, harmony, and acceptance among the Muslim people of Spain. In fact, this was the era of Jewish history that they themselves refer to as "the golden age." In the famous treaties by Rabbi Minken, he says of this era:

"It was Muslim Spain, the only land the Jew knew in nearly a thousand years of the dispersion, which made the genius of physician Moses Maimonides possible."

G - Rabbi Speaking at the First International Islamic Unity Conference
Perhaps, even in the 20th century, where there has been a lot of hostilities between the Muslims and Jews over Palestine, there are many Jewish people who call for fraternity and "unity with diversity". It was Rabbi Allen Bennett of San Francisco, in the interfaith session, at the Islamic Unity Conference, held in Los Angeles California, August 1996, who admittedly thought that he had received the wrong call to speak at an Islamic conference. Yet at the Conference, Rabbi Bennett expressed his enjoyment and unique experience with the Muslims' hospitalities and manners. After he spoke about some Muslim and Jewish similarities, and the possibility of Muslim/Jewish peaceful coexistence, Rabbi Bennett further said:

"The Jews in this country, who are such a small minority, have a tremendous obligation to make the Muslims feel welcome. It is a joy for me to go home not with a renewed respect, but with increased respect, not with new hope but with more hope, and I have a big job to do; I have to become a marketing agent for Islam."

It is only here in America do we have this opportunity to hear people share their thoughts and hopes, and to bring the religious communities closer together.

Final Remarks
In conclusion, The Muslims and Jews co-existed in harmony during the rise of Islam and beyond. Islam is a friendly religion to all "It was Muslim Spain, the only land the Jew knew in nearly a thousand years of the dispersion, which made the genius of physician Moses Maimonides possible". Acceptance and virtue are indivisible parts of the Muslim's faith. "The Jews of Banu 'Awf are one nation with the Muslims; the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs". These principles and historical events should draw the pace for better relations and more peaceful future for both

yes dave there are-
ill find them for you

I don't see how the web page gets what it does from 71 to 85 of The Cow.

This does not apply to all Jews. I hope most Muslims understand that.

"75. Can ye (O ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe in you?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted it knowingly after they understood it.

76. Behold! when they meet the men of Faith, they say: "We believe": But when they meet each other in private, they say: "Shall you tell them what Allah hath revealed to you, that they may engage you in argument about it before your Lord?"- Do ye not understand (their aim)?

77. Know they not that Allah knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal?

78. And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.

79. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

80. And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?""

I am not sure most Muslims understand that Jews follow this and that those who backslided did not suffer and die to remain Jews.

"81. Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins,- they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (for ever).

82. But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever).

83. And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): Worship none but Allah. treat with kindness your parents and kindred, and orphans and those in need; speak fair to the people; be steadfast in prayer; and give Zakat. Then did ye turn back, except a few among you, and ye backslide (even now).

84. And remember We took your covenant (to this effect): Shed no blood amongst you, nor turn out your own people from your homes: and this ye solemnly ratified, and to this ye were witness."

The notion of a Covenant with Islam is interesting. I do not think most Jews understand that. Are there any texts which discuss it and comment on the above verses?

I just noticed this.

"but herzl definitely did not have a religious goal-"

True. Did I say otherwise?

I did not recommend the translation or all the quotes on the web page I cited.

I replied to what BGONE posted on 2/21.

I had not looked at what you cited.

How do you interpret the below:

"61. When they come to thee, they say: "We believe": But in fact they enter with a mind against Faith, and they go out with the same but Allah knoweth fully all that they hide.

62. Many of them dost thou see, racing each other in sin and transgression, and their eating of things forbidden. Evil indeed are the things that they do.

63. Why do not the rabbis and the doctors of Law forbid them from their (habit of) uttering sinful words and eating things forbidden? Evil indeed are their works.

64. The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.

65. If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to Gardens of Bliss.

66. If only they had stood fast by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have (enjoyed) eating both from above them and from below their feet. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.

67. O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.

68. Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

69. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

http://www.isna.net/library/quran/quran_e/5.html

It does not say what the bit you quoted says but in 66 it implies Jews should believe the Gospels. 64 seems pretty useful for terrorist purposes if it is taken out of context. 69 seems to me to set things straight.

I think that is a good translation.

what a surprise- no comment

i as always appreciate your sense of fairness dave- but herzl definitely did not have a religious goal-

im not following the name thing here- israel WAS called judah at one time- (well a big part of it)

i looked at your link dave-

They [the Jews] spread evil in the land .... [Surah V, v. 62-66]
[The Jews] knowingly perverted [the word of Allah], know of nothing except lies ... commit evil and become engrossed in sin. [Surah II, v. 71-85]

i looked at all the "quotes" from the Qur'an-

this is for your edification-

stay away from these bad translations that insert words in paretheses-

if you look at all of the quotes- youll find that the word "jew" is inserted parenthetically every single time!

this is the opinion of the translator and is a sure indicationthat its not to be trusted as valid-

stay away from and disbelive any translation that uses parentheses- they are personal "clarifications" do not exist in the original arabic and shouldnt be used at all-

also- the writer of the article states at the beginning that jewish people didnt identify themselves as "jews" until the 13th century-

this is completely wrong- the word "jew" came into being in the 1800s from a king james translation of the bible- it went through a long convoluted process and volumes of papers have been written on it-

im not sure what exactly the point of the article was but its invalidated with mediocre scholarship.

again- any time you see any parentheses- ignore the content of them as they are additions-

"To begin with, the country would be called Judah and not Israel. An israelite is a builder, carpenter in a sense. The real country of Israel, home of israelites was ancient Egypt, the pyramid builders."

I guess to some here that passes for history. Judah was a son of Jacob. Jacob was also named Israel. His ancestors and descendents were shepherds not pyramid builders.

""But it was Our [Allah's] will to favour those [the Children of Israel] who were oppressed in the land [of Egypt] and to make them leaders among men, to bestow on them a noble heritage and to give them power in the land [of Egypt]; and to inflict on Pharoah, Haman and their warriors the very scourge they [the Egyptians] dreaded".[Qur'an, sura 28:3, "The Story"]

"We [Allah] gave the Book [Torah] to Moses (never doubt that you will meet him) and made it a guide for the Israelites. And when they grew steadfast and firmly believed in Our revelations, We appointed leaders from among them who gave guidance at Our bidding. On the Day of Resurrection your Lord will resolve their differences for them". [Qur'an, sura 32:22, "Adoration"]

"We [Allah] gave the Book [Torah] to the Israelites and bestowed on them wisdom and prophethood. We provided them with wholesome things and exalted them above the nations".[Qur'an, sura 45:17, "Kneeling"]"

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/quranhadith.html

"All people are equal and when Jewish People treat others equally, they will receive equal treatment in return."

As a people, Jews have treated others extremely well and continue to do so. Yet they have been persecuted brutally anyway as continues today. There is always something that can be blamed on some Jew and there is always mistaken history to rely on.

"You cannot name me one massacre by muslems of jews before Israel was created. The great muslem warrior, Salehideen, who liberated Jerusalem from the crusaders, his doctor and military advisor were Jewish."

And the times when Jews were treated reasonably are the times when Islam was great. Jews contributed to that greatness.

It would be easy to name massacres in Palestine before Israel was created and often before. People are after all people. The descendents of nice and enlightened people can be far from that.

"And by the way, you cant call an arab an antisemite."

There is no value to thus changing the meaning of words that have been used for over a century.

While not used as long, the same applies to Jimmy Carter's foxy use of the word apartheid.

The Germans had very good relationships with the Turks and Arabs when they dealt poorly to horribly with Jews. Arabs are not blacks and Jews are no more white than they are. When all Jews were excluded in the United States, well off Arabs were not. Places where blacks could not go were almost always places where Jews could not go.

"However, I think its policies in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are as wrongheaded and arrogant as the Bush Administration's policies in Iraq. Does that make me a self-hating Jew, Professor Sarna, or a "rightful heir of the biblical prophets"?"

Well, if you equate Jewish leaders with the leaders of the Christian right that is unfair and unreasonable.

Israel's leaders show a sad lack of creativity and Israel is far from fulfilling the biblical mandate to be a light unto the nations, which was Herzl's goal. That does not make them any more arrogant than anyone else who feels millions of people should do as they say is.

"Is criticism of the German policies in the late 30s and early 40s unworthy unless expressed in the context of a love for Germany?"

I guess you mean was it? No one thinks well of the Germans back then.

Sure people can view Jews as some folks viewed Nazis then. And Jews can draw the appropriate conclusions. The problem comes when people become irate that Jews do that. That is illogical and logic is useful.

Victoria,

To answer your question, "Yes".

Regards.

Victoria,

Your constant harangue about zionism is not going anywhere until your Koran is purified by removing its militaristic and demeaning statements. Start the purification by renouncing and condemning these passages.

norrie-

no norrie- it was zionism- it was a land grab-

blaming the victims isnt even an attempt to poo-poo it away-

so in 1957 you were on a kibbutz?

it was a nice dream norrie- but you were mislead-

id say the palestinians have gotten a good lesson in inpermanence-

but i would not say it has been a perfect example that they must learn and accomadate themselves too-

ot that this particular lesson in impermanence was the zionists right to teach them-

sorry for the play on words- but i wish it were such a simple problem-

Victoria,

Look very carefully at the first map at the site you linked to:

[http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/JNF/Story1513.html]

In the lower left corner, near the Gaza Strip, in the northern Negev, you will see the location and name of the former Arab village of al-'Imara. [You may need a magnifying glass to read it.]

Fifty years ago today I was doing farm work at that exact location. It was at that time a beautiful, fascinating landscape.

I am sorry for the Arab villagers' loss of al-'Imara, but I have to say:

(1) It was the policies of the Palestinians and the Arab States that brought about that loss;

(2) What happened is a perfect example of the Buddhist teaching of Impermanence, which we must all learn and accomodate ourselves to.

Best wishes.

Mr. Concerned,

I respectfully think you should be a Buddhist and not a Christian anymore. Being a Christian is difficult for you. You fight with all people here about God and their religion.

Respectfully

Ras

Victoria,

I've been away for a couple of days and just found your post to me of 2/25, 12:27 PM. The document you linked to is very interesting - as a propaganda piece. Dr. Joseph Goebbels would be impressed.

What impressed me were the two maps. They show the huge amounts of land the Arabs lost by rejecting the UN's partition plan and declaring war on Israel. Those land losses were not the doing of the Jews, but of the Arabs. If the Arabs had accepted the UN's two-state plan in 1947, they'd have a lot more land today. The Arabs' attacking Israel in 1948 did as much for their interests as our attacking Iraq in 2003 did for us.

Regards.

Victoria,

Again and again you duck the major issue i.e. the militaristic and demeaning passages of the Koran. Renounce and condemn them before making any more judgements about other religions and groups.

here you go arlington- its hardly fair to give you homework-

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/james_anderson/2007/01/abandon_just_war_teaching__as.html

there is certainly way more but it gives you an idea if it interests you that is

arlington- possibly you would be interested to go back to the war question on these boards and search under my name- i did alot of posts about the rules of engagement in islam-

they predate and cover more comprehensivley our current geneva convention

Arlington,

There is only one set of rules, the Ten Commandments (minus the god rules if you are an atheist) and variations thereof.

As noted previously, I renounce and condemn any militaristic or demeaning passage in any document to include religious documents. I look no further than the interpretations of the Koran by of Sunni and Shiite mullahs to realize the problems of interpretation of the militaristic passages of the Koran. Without these passages, there would be no interpretations and no 24/7 butchery of Sunnis by Shiites and vice versa.

Professor Crossan has done a good job in cleaning up the NT. He or someone like him should now clean up the Koran before some mullah decides the use of atomic weapons is permitted as a means to kill nonbelievers.

And in case you missed my take on the three major religions:

And what has history, scriptural text reviews and archeology taught us about these foundations?

1. Abraham is the reported founder of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Based on all we know now, Abraham was at best a combination of three separate individuals with 1.5 million Conservative Jews no longer believing he existed at all. (ditto for all the characters in the OT).
references: National Georgraphic review on Abraham and http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0401torah.asp
2. The founders of Christianity and Islam were both illiterate. i.e. neither one proof read or approved the NT or the Koran so we are taking the word of scribes and embellishers with their own agendas.
references: NT exegetes from the last two hundred years, Karen Armstrong's reviews of Islam and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
3. Christianity is founded on the words and actions of Jesus which are based on the hearsay 20-50 years after the crucifixion, the whim of Pilate, the false prophecy of the imminent second coming, and the sword of Constantine.
references: NT exegetes and their conclusions/books from the last two hundred years

Conclusion: Use Judaism, Christianity or Islam with significant caution!!!

Concerned, do you prefer society and war without rules or society and war with rules? :) I could argue the same thing for the Bible in terms of militaristic and demeaning passages, but we learn how to understand our religious texts and true meanings through self-discovery and organized help. "Militaristic and demeaning" passages in the Koran are often taken out of context and so the reasons behind rules are not seen. The best example I can use for now is about conversion within Islam. We know from our past of Christianity expansion that people will do forced conversions and the Ottomans probably have the worst history in this regard (of course if it was so bad, half of Europe would be Muslim today). But, in Islamic history, there are territories that given up because reggae generals did forced conversions on occupied persons and this is not within the rules of religious war. We too often look at translated passages without giving it an honest evaluation. Societies always take religion and religious texts to justify actions that are hardly just; however those actions usually do not follow religion as it should. So, our considerations of the failings of religion should be above our perceptions and societal understandings.

Victoria,

Do really know how to say "I renounce and condemn the militaristic and demeaning passages of the Koran"? Simply say Yes and you will finally reach religious maturity.

norrie- here is a link to JNF-

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/JNF/Story1513.html

Victoria,

And the Islamic "wishy wash" continues. First things first!!! Renounce and condemn the militaristic and demeaning passages of the Koran then what you say might have some meaning.

This talk of cluster bombs in the last 3 days, the world witnessed a plea from Israel for bunker busters, and the US probably fullfilled the order in a covert fashion. We will withdraw but bulldoze any structure of settlement...but leave the glass-walled greenhouses for growing vegetables. And in the 1st season of harvest, the produce was trucked to the checkpoint for passage...denied. In the hot sun, a growers harvest was meant to rot. What's on your plate tonight for dinner? Imagine the menu in Palestine...

norrie- you are not in a position to forgive anyone for their knowledge of history-

especially strange since you are a buddhist- why would you frogive anyone for anything in honor of easter?
the facts are the facts- this is not a cut and paste- and its not even arguable-

there are 2 versins- history written by the victors and history presented by the losers in the proposition-

usually when i have something to discredit i use resources to do so- i have never forgiven someone for their knowledge of history-

thats why you go to the source of the history- go to turks for turkish history- and then go to several sources-

or else just say- hmm- i didnt know that-

Sigh. It is with great sadness that I read pieces like that of Jonathan Sarna. So much denial, so much wishing that it could be the way we were brought up as Jews to believe. I agree with Starhawk: it is hard to have a dream die. But it is also with fear that I read such words. Jonathan writes about love, but what he is selling is fear – fear which breeds blindness, and ultimately comes to justify the denial. We must not let fear create the discourse – no one is denying Israel’s right to exist, certainly not we Jews. The question is not should there be an Israel – the fact is, there is an Israel. The question is, as posed so simply and eloquently by Bernard Avishai not so many years ago: “What kind of Israel do you want to have?

Jewish “defenders of Israel” will continue to protest, but it is becoming an increasingly strident and desperate attempt to close of the growing dialogue. And it is so needed, it is so critical, not only for Jews but for all Americans, given our government’s (and hence our) complicity in this disaster. One sign – and I think we should see it as positive – is the increased stridency and, frankly, outrageously over the top attack on Jews who criticize Israel. The AJC’s recent publication of Alvin Rosenfeld’s piece “’Progressive’ Jewish Thought and the New Antisemitism” is one indication of this phenomenon. Individual attacks on Judt, Rich, and Kushner are another, along with the furor and smearing that erupted following the publication of Walt and Mearshiemer’s piece on AIPAC. But perhaps most of all, we have to take note of the appearance of two important books – books that signal a change in the air, a shift in consciousness about the Israel-Palestine conflict. They are Jimmy Carter’s Palestine Peace not Apartheid and Israeli historian Ilan Pappe’s The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. What is notable about these books is that it is now becoming increasingly clear to the wider world that the current situation in Israel and the occupied territories is a direct continuation of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine begun sixty years ago. However painful it is to hear these words, and for me, a Jew, to utter them, it is essential to overcome denial and to confront the facts, the truth, as it continues to surface. If we learned anything in the twentieth century, it is that peace is impossible, and the unending cycle of violence inevitable, without truth and reconciliation. The strength of denial and the closing down of dialogue are without doubt our most formidable enemies in the search for peace in the Middle East.

One more comment - because I don't want to debate Jonathan, there's too much debate and too little conversation -- but please, Israel is not a democracy! You need more than elections and a parliamentary system (yes, even with occasional Arabs in cabinet positions). You need laws that ensure equality for all.

Victoria,

It's nice to hear from you again.

I have to say though, with all respect, that I believe your views on the Jewish-Arab conflict, and its history, are very much mistaken.

However, Easter is approaching and I forgive you. My gift to your faith.

The following table may be of interest:

JEWISH LAND ACQUISITION BY PERIOD AND JEWISH NATIONAL FUND PERCENTAGE OF TOTAL

At End of - Total Land Accumulated To Date From All Sources - Total Land Accumulated JNF To Date By JNF - Percentage of Total Held

1914 418,000 16,380 3.9
1922 586,147 72,360 12.3
1927 882,502 196,660 22.2
1932 1,025,079 296,910 28.9
1937 1,244,604 369,860 29.7
1940 1,359,857 505,544 37.1
May 15, 1948 2,000,000 (estimated) 928,240 46.4

Source : Statistics for this table were culled from P. Gurevich and A. Gertz, Jewish Agricultural Settlement in Palestine, Jerusalem, 1936, p. 36, and Minutes of the JNF Directorate Meetings from 1924 to 1948.

The Arab population of Palestine in 1948-49, and thereafter, has suffered because it rejected the UN's resolution for an Arab state in Palestine, and started a war against the Jewish community in Palestine, contrary to the UN's resolutions.

May you have peace and tranquility in this turbulent time.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Professor Sarna. Allow me to consider Christian Zionists to fit in most aptly under the "constructive criticism" category: they have consistently opposed every single land grant promised by Israel to Palestinian terrorists in the name of peace, and even now, they want absolutely no appeasement with the Iranian Islamofascists or any other Islamic nations. Dick Morris once observed that American evangelicals support Israel much more than do American Jews. (Morris himself is Jewish, if I remember correctly.) He ought to be a worthy critic, or would he not be? After all, at the end of the day, he is a political analyst, not a theologian. I agree with Ama most profusely: Professor Sarna's criterion is itself a truly worthy start.

norrie-

i remember you stating that the ottoman empire supported the jeiwsh acquisition of land -

while this is true initially- when herzl (he was the founder of zionism- an atheist, as were all the zonists at that time) met with the sultan and his intentions for a zionist state became clear- his offer to buy jerusalem was roundly rejected- and his credibility was shot at that point- he (herzl) knew that the sutanate was almost broke at that point and his offer was a most generou one- but still it was rejected because up to that point most of the world wasnt aware of the agenda of the zionist movement or foresaw the land grab that came later.

that is why the internet is such a dangerous source of history-

despite your emotional attachment to the 'bravery' of the soldiers in 1967- what is the reason that the largest population of refugees ever seen on the planet was instigated by an armed and violent persecution of the original inhabitants?

as arlington has pointed out-there is a whole branch of law that deals with ethics-

the link to the resoultions was posted 3:06 am on feb 22

go look at those links and then you can know alot about them too!

Ann & Arlington,
A short extract from the first article on Jewish land purchases that I found on the internet:

By May 1948 Jews acquired approximately two million of Palestine's 26 million dunams. In terms of Palestine's total land area under the Mandate, this was a small percentage. But these two million purchased dunams were among the most cultivable. They were neither in the hill regions of the West Bank/Judea-Samaria regions nor south of Beersheba. Jewish land acquisition focused on the valley and coastal regions of Palestine from 1920 through 1936. Before and after these years land was purchased also in the Galilee and later in the southern portions of Palestine, between Beersheba and Gaza. At the end of the Mandate Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip (320,000 dunams) and the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan annexed the West Bank/Judea-Samaria (6 million dunams).

Until 1939, more than two-thirds of the land acquired by Jews was purchased by private individuals and companies, not institutions of the Jewish Agency or yishuv. This was accomplished by private purchases, land transfers not recorded in the sub-district land registry offices, from official registered transfers by Arab sellers and concessionary agreements with the British. The data in Table 1 show that the JNF was only a minority purchaser of all Jewish-acquired land by the time of the Peel Report's partition recommendation. It is noteworthy that the suggestion to establish a Jewish state was made because land was purchased by individual investors, entrepreneurs, settlers, pioneers and private companies, and not by the JNF.

Ann,

It's partly true. It's not true that much of Israel's territory was purchased. The Negev makes up much of Israel's land mass but essentially none of it was purchased.

I don't know any details of the amounts of land purchased, but all or much of the original modern Jewish settlement land was purchased.

Many of the purchases were from individual Islamic landowners. I don't know if any was purchased from the Empire or if the Empire allowed Jews to settle on land it owned. I do know that the early Jewish settlers negotiated with the Empire for various rights and privileges relating to land use.

It would be useful if some poster could enlighten us.

Regards.

Ok, I must stop posting (after this)! :)
Excellent thing to bring up. 1st - does government's own lands? They certainly set the laws about owning lands and I know that much land was bought by Jewish persons during the Ottoman Empire, British mandate and before. Don't quote me on this (and other certainly know more than me on this), but I think the largest land-buying was during the British occupation (after WWI). I don't think that the land bought equals to the amount of land currently within Israel's borders, but I'm not looking at any statistics. I do know that there are cases as well of Jewish persons who bought land within the area - be it in Lebanon, Syria, or what is now Israel/Palestine and had it taken away as a result of the conflicts by any of those governments. I always hear the plight of the Lebanese Jewish population as an example of 'betrayal' on the part of Israel, but to be honest have not researched it enough to see what is fact and what is rumor. It’s best when looking at this conflict to try to get back to original documents as much as possible because the interpretations and rumors vary so greatly and truths are seen as lies and lies are seen as truths.

Wasn't much of the land that is now Isreal legally purchased by a number of Jewish people from the "owners"(ottoman Empire)? Not sure whether that is true.

Hello Norrie,
Thanks so much for answering back. My understanding is that the Jerusalem Corridor came under IDF control after the 1948 war, but I can be mistaken in my understanding of that. :) I have no doubt that my understanding and history is not as vast as other persons so appreciate these forums where the different histories come out.
I agree that making Jerusalem an international city is ridiculous, but that the legal status does eventually need to be figured out (along with the legal status of other things already discussed). My largest issue with most things is where things (people, places) fall legally. This is why I support the ratification of a Constitution in Israel sooner rather than later. But this also falls under so many things. How can we resolve issues until we define where they are at now? If Israel won all of Palestine in the wars, are all persons in the land Israeli? If not, what are they? If we still want a Palestinian state, what are the current boundaries? Who decides this?
I really have enjoyed this discussion, but I’m going to have to stop writing now (and get back to work!). :) We may disagree on who’s control Jerusalem should be under (legally or not), but I think we can agree that larger issues, definitions and institutions need to be work out before we argue again on the individual events that have made this conflict so large.