All Comments (10)

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jonny14

Thomas, thanks for the background information. I see the 14th Amendment as the federal government doing what the Constitution should have done a century before. I believe in the principle of disestablishment for all governments, meaning no government endorsement of any religious belief. From my reading, groups who insist that American law should be based in Biblical principles often point to the Pilgrims, or at least our national myth about the Pilgrims.

Ah, I guess it's lost innocence to think that the thanks given to the Creator or Great Earth by the Native Americans -- who shared their abundance at harvest time and their thanks for it -- with the early colonists would enter into modern conversations. Without reviewing the history to find out that all my childhood impressions are wrong or simply outdated, I can nonetheless decry a conversation that does not consider that we thank the corn itself and the turkey and the sun and the rains and our neighbors who helped grow and harvest it and who share in its cooking and enjoyment. We are thankful ... whatever or whoever the "object" of our thanks, and I am thankful we are!

Tonio, the Congregationalists were the Puritans, and they maintained strong control of Massachusetts until about 1691. The Puritan minister Samuel Willard wrote in 1681 that the business "of our first Planters . . . was not Toleration; but were professed Enemies of it, and could leave the World professing they died no Libertines." The Puritans exiled Anne Hutchinson and Roger Williams. Mary Dyer, a Quaker, was hanged by the Massachusetts government. Puritanism lost its force through the eighteenth century and was divided into the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and Unitarians. Massachusetts, however, did have an established religion until the first half of the nineteenth century. Not until the ratificiation of the fourteenth amendment did the national government insist on disestablishment.

Excellent commentary!

Suedmeyer, were the Congregationalists theocrats like the Pilgrims and Puritans? From what I've read about the latter two groups, religious freedom happened in Massachusetts in spite of them, not because of them. The Pilgrims made it illegal to criticize ministers, with the punishment being prison or exile.

And Jerry, thanks for the background about the Anglican Church. Those states had no business passing such laws.

I agree with a previous post, the premise of this article is correct. However, I am writing to remind Mr. Meacham about some of America's early religious history. He says "for the nation was founded on the principle of religious liberty- that, at the federal level, no one's civil or political rights could be affected by his faith or lack thereof." This is only half the story. For about fifty years after America's origin as a nation, some states had laws requiring compulsory observance in the Anglican religion. For example, any child born would have to be baptized in the Anglican Church, regardless of the religion practiced by the family. And for a marriage to be recognized as legal, a couple would be required to marry in the Anglican Church. And all adult residents would be required to tithe a portion of their income to the Anglican Church. Regardless of what the U.S. Constitution said, the net effect for those living in states with this strict legal code was the same. They had to practice a government-sponsored religion or face punishment. The reality for many early Americans was not nearly the all-inclusive religious environment some of us may think was the case.

The premise of this article is correct! But; ....

Jon, I don't agree with your concept of historical facts about Thanksgiving. Yet; why would I expect anything else from a good Episcopalian? Almost think your intellectually hostile to the Pilgrims/Puritans/Congregationalists of New England, willing to re-write historical local congregational parish records. If I'd not read your "American Gospel", been an Episcopalian, and a retired clergyman of the UCC (from the Evangelical Church), you could have slipped this one past me.

Historical Fact: Congregationalists were practicing a form of the Thanksgiving Celebration many years prior to the 1860's. The celebration was used as a local church activity in the late fall of each year, similar to Harvest Home Celebrations. Thanksgiving is an historical celebration in certain New England Congregational congregations which goes much deeper into American History than you give credit. I served a Parish near Bangor,Maine who had records of such an event dating prior to 1835.

I find this topic interesting since it does find it's roots in a historical debate you and I hold close.

There are two issues I have not seen your comments on:

1. If history had tilted slightly in the Continental Congress, the national religion of the USA would have been Congregationalist. True?

2. The celebration of "Thanksgiving" is a historical celebration of the most liberal protestant denomination in the United States! God forbid!

Jon, some of us just sit back and smile!

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What a sensible commentary!

Too bad so many "defenders of the constitution" want to drive all religion from the public stage.

The ambiguity of "separation" remains. The rise of the evangelical right came about in large part because too much of the left wanted to destroy that ambiguity once and for all. Efforts to gain votes for the far left cannot succeed as long as anti-religious fanatics control so much of it.