All Comments (142)

TO PATTI ROBERTS:

You wrote, "I personally am for him and believe EVERY word that He breathed into His Word".

Remember when Jesus was on the cross and said, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do".

Do you believe the above sentence?

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

So basically what you are saying in your post is that you are a non-believer...therefore you choose to be eternally separated from God...because you can't believe parts of His word...and not others.
The Bible is absolute truth...and if in it God says that Jesus was born of a virgin...then it is so...and the Bible clearly states that Jesus died..and rose on the third day,and walked among His people. And after 40 days ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God. We don't pick and choose what we want to out of the Bible...you are either for Him or against Him...I personally am for him and believe EVERY word that He breathed into His Word.I pray that God will reveal Himself to you in a mighty way...so you will stop spreading these lies ..trying to confuse nonbelievers..or weaker Christians.
Sincerely,
A true believer

I guess all those Christians that went to their deaths during the Roman persecutions, died for a lie.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall when the good (alleged) bishop meets our creator.

"The Truth is absolute."
--Pope Benedict XVI

TO JOHN SHELBY SPONG:

Concerning your post, WHAT A CROCK.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

FOr some reason, I can't post on this thread, though I can on others -- and I'm not using any bad words!

I'm trying to communicate Jack, but the what I want to say, won't come up here. Let's see if this does

Hey ChurchStateWall,

Thanks for your response to my post:

"And you're a worthless, loathsome, son of a you know what, you god damn Pharisee.

You couldn't follow Jesus if he chained you to the back fo a pickup."

Oh C'mon, ChurchStateWall guy, tell me how you REALLY feel.

Listen, friend. Switch to decaf. You're gonna blow out a blood vessel or something.

Obviously I do not care for Bp. Spong's philosophical musings. Perhaps you are his biggest fan.

I say his views are the same old stuff I've heard from him for years because I'm very familiar with his non-Christian point of view. He made a career of trashing Christianity while a Bishop in the Episcopal Church. He rejected everything the church is based upon but never stopped taking the pay checks.

If he truly had the courage of his convictions he would have hung up the mitre and quit the church long ago. But guess what - he got a hell of a lot more press by being Episcopal Bishop Jack Spong trashing Christianity than being plain old Jack Spong doing so.

He traded on his position in the church while doing everything he could to destroy it - and that included doing a lousy job of running his diocese in New Jersey. It was probably far more interesting and enjoyable playing the part of the daring and controversial bishop.

While I was listening to him plug his latest book it became clear that he not only doesn't believe in the Jesus of Christianity (of course), but it seems he doesn't really believe in God, period. He seems to worships his intellect. Not the intellect in a universal sense, but his intellect, as in Jack Spong's. And at the end of the day that's all he is left with.

It's sad. He's made a career and a name for himself but he doesn't really have a whole lot to offer. He has something to say in rejecting Christianity, but he's said it a dozen times over in the books he's written. The title of his latest one pretty much sums it up. Every book he has written is for non-believers, or is an attempt to create them.

What he offers is basically...nothing.

"You must want to stop people from talking because you want to stop hearing what makes you frightened."

I said that because you want to stop people from speaking something they believe.

And you confirmed you are fearful by saying-

"When someone says you're going to hell, it usually sounds like a threat.."

If you don't believe in hell- how is that a threat? It like the bogeyman. It will only scare you- when you're young enough to think he's real.

Anyone who has faith in religion believes there is a consequent to actions and a hereafter. If that threatens and frightens you- why do you post on a "Faith" board? You can liberate yourself from fear by simply avoiding the faithful..

Grow up, efavorite..

Jack says, "You must want to stop people from talking because you want to stop hearing what makes you frightened."

You seem to know an awful lot about me Jack. How do you do that, with a stranger on the internet?

As for your friends' admonitions about food, those can be easily proven one way or the other.

Hell can't be proven - there's no sign of it, except in the Bible, of course.

Also, when people tell me what to eat, I have the distinct sense they're trying to help me. When someone says you're going to hell, it usually sounds like a threat and they come across about as loving and concerned as you just did in your post to me.

Are you a Christian, Jack?

efavorite-

"Yes - one group can stop telling the other group they they will burn in Hell for not holding the proper beliefs."

I live an active life and have lots of friends. I have had people tell me -not to fly planes, not to race cars, even not to eat raw oysters all because "it will kill me". I don't feel I need to silence them because I don't believe them. I understand -they are only expressing their (misplaced) concern for me. No harm done.

You must want to stop people from talking because you want to stop hearing what makes you frightened. If you are so fragile- don't associate with Christians. Anyone who believes you will go to hell at your death- will feel a burden to inform you.

ABTW-

"Great minds think alike"?

Weak minds are stuck in the same rut..

"Any thoughts on how these two groups can be encouraged to affirm each other?"

Yes - one group can stop telling the other group they they will burn in Hell for not holding the proper beliefs.

The people that John Shelby Spong is writing for find they can't reach faith in the underlying realities of Christianity if belief in the literal truth of the Bible is presented as a prequisite, although they can believe if that obstacle is removed. That is a terriffic service.

Others seem to find that they cannot believe the underlying realities if the Bible is not in some way literally true.

So we have two groups who both want to believe the same underlying things, but are polarised on the surface.

Any thoughts on how these two groups can be encouraged to affirm each other?

God bless the arrogant and prideful. God bless those with holes in themselves that they need to try to fill with their profound opinions and witty banter in this blog.
God bless all on the journey of faith.
A man may start his life with the simple faith of a peasant, may go to great lengths in all manner of study in an attempt to discern the mysteries of his faith, and then may return to the simple faith of a peasant.

If I had time, I could show you that Christianity is logical, that Jesus was God, that the Bible is true, the Pope infallible when teaching to the entire church on matters of faith and/or morals. But it wouldn't achieve anything, you would continue to rail at something you say doesn't exist. If we are all wrong, leave us to our opinions, and we will wither and die. If we are right............Think about it.

From a fifteen year old kid.

Who has been home schooled all his life, and is lovin' it!

To Susan from Culumbus:

You probably believe that protons, neutrons and quarks are dancing beyond your perception because you have seen films of atomic bombs exploding, right? You don´t believe scientists or documentary film makers lie, or conspire to, or suffer from collective blind spots that encyst delusions, right?

You also believe that your heart beats spontaneously for so many years because of sub atomic, atomic, molecular and physiological processes that are somehow associated to emotional and cognitive experiences and self understanding, to thought itself, and that´s pretty much the basis of all there is to it, right?

You perhaps also believe that even though the scientists you trust do not have answers for any of the ultimate questions, one day they will, right?

Perhaps you also believe you don´t govern your life by faith and that mysteries not ultimately scientifically explainable have any place in your life. Right?

Therefore, you believe the mysteries contemplated by Christians are pre-scientific, not outside science´s jursdiction, and thus fantasies.

A former Episcopal Bishop reduced in the freedom of retirement to undermining the faith of those whose church he served. This is not a condemnation - just an observation. Those who practice Christianity without expecting an eternal reward show a refreshing altruism.

A former Episcopal Bishop reduced in the freedom of retirement to undermining the faith of those whose church he served. This is not a condemnation - just an observation. Those who practice Christianity without expecting an eternal reward show a refreshing altruism.

Angela- "What's appalling is that you were a former bishop which by your own words, you were a false convert, you've made a god to suit yourself and your belief is no different that an unbeliever."

Am I to assume, then, that *you* have chosen your faith because it is UN-suitable to you?

Or are you in fact just like everyone else here, both pro and con, who has "chosen" the faith or non-faith that THEY find "suitable to them?"

If a prerequisite to a "true" faith is its unsuitability for you, may I suggest Al Qaeda.

Radical Islam is unsuitable. It's counterintuitive. It sounds just about as weong as it can me.

So, go for it.

http://churchstatewall.typepad.com/

To: John Shelby Spong,
So by your words, you were never a Christian and just because you don't believe Holy scripture doesn't make it untrue. What's appalling is that you were a former bishop which by your own words, you were a false convert, you've made a god to suit yourself and your belief is no different that an unbeliever. Just because you choose to believe in some false "Jesus" doesn't mean he wasn't born of a virgin, did not resurrect from the dead, did not descend to heaven and does not hold justice for the unrighteous in His Holy hand. I pray that you didn't teach this heresy in your church. I'll pray for for your salvation.

I am a former Christian who has lately, past few years, decided to take a closer look at the the "facts" presented to me from a standpoint of someone who has never heard it before.

After thinking about it this way, I realized that had I heard this salvation story before I was indoctrinated, I would never believe such things. They do not make sense whatsoever. Maybe Jesus just never spoke to me, but I now believe this is just fantasy.

Saying all of that, I don't judge those who still believe, it is comforting to believe that there is a God who cares about you no matter what. What I ask is that those who continue to believe although there is no evidence, allow me to live my life through a different lens without acting as though I am evil.

How ironic that Bishop Spong's "limitless Jesus" is so limited. While it is true that Jesus tells his followers repeatedly not to believe in him because of miracles, Christians have historically believed that something qualitatively different happened on Easter morning. If Jesus only "rose in the minds of his disciples" -- a notion borrowed from the theologian Rudolph Bultmann -- then nothing is substantively changed in the cosmos, and Bishop Spong should close up shop and tend his garden. There he might learn something about miracles and resurrection.

Bishop Spong's "revolutionary" ideas are quite old hat. And, his "Jesus for the Non-Religious" is nothing of the sort: it is a Jesus for one more aging baby boomer still rebelling against his parents' conventions. The non-religious folks I know are starving for transformation, and nothing Spong offers provides anything of the sort. In the words of St. Paul, he is "of all men most to be pitied."

PS – I wrote the following in “Word” before seeing Neal Obstat’s comment – Great minds think alike:

BillTetzeli – Considering that none of us were there to witness the facts of Jesus’ life and considering there is no historical or archeological evidence for them, why even consider them as facts?

Instead, think of the bible stories as myth, fable and legend, like King Arthur, Zeus, Aesop and Sherlock Holmes.

You weren’t there to witness those either, but you don’t think of them as facts and I bet you’d resist anyone who tried to get you to believe those stories – unless perhaps you were threatened with eternal damnation.

I have not read the book but I can see from this commentary that it will be a good one for a lot of us Christians who struggle to convince the youth of the computer age about resurrection of Jesus Christ and how to get to them to accept what we say to them

Bill Tetzelli,
And were you there when Odysseus contended with Poseidon? What, you don't believe in the Odysseus and Posidon myth? But you weren't there, so how can you deny the myth? Because from any literal (as opposed to literary) perspective, it's a fairy tale and therefore beyond belief. The same is true of the Resurrection and all the other miracles associated with Jesus. Oh, I know, I wasn't there. But I've never been to the dark side of the moon, either, but I'm pretty sure I can say there are no elves there.

This is the Jesus I believe in.

This is the Jesus I believe in.

I have to say I agree.

People take the metophors and symbolism in the Bible and run with it. The worship the symbols instead of researching, studying and meditating on what the symbols are supposed to represent. They rarely try to find out what about the symbolism can be used to improve their everyday life.

Jesus, who name was never Jesus at all (look it up), cam with prinicples for daily living. People tend to concentrate on his death, which in my opinion is futile. The real quest should be how he lived. Whther he was resurrected literraly or not, the real question should be, "CAN GOD RAISE YOU FROM THE DEAD". Not literally, becuase that is a very low level of understanding Yashuah (Jesus). But when you spriit is low, can God resurrect you? When you are low on cash, can you find the will and detrminationto keep striving? When the struggles of life make you feel like the walking dead, CAN GOD RAISE YOU?

There was no talking snake, as mentioned in Genesis. There was no flood that covered the entire earth.

Stop worhipping the symbol. Try to find the meaning of what the symbol represents and apply to your everyday life.

Ritual without righteousness and understanding is vain repetition.

In other words, Jesus was no more than another of the myriad prophets of one of the thousands of Gods dreamed up by primitive peoples to explain away the mysteries of the natural world. That we still believe today shows that humans are still stupid and primitive...the evidence is all aroud us! We are breeding ourselves out of existence and don't have the sense to stop, we kill each other for terrority, for status, for greed, and most of us still believe in some fantasy God who will rescue us from our follies. Hasn't happened, and won't. We are no more than slightly less dumb animals.

LOVEO & LOVEA is arrived. We are Here!

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THANK YE ALL!

Mr. Spong, one question. Were you there?

I wasn't either. Therefore I cannot rule out that the Gospel stories as related are true, not just in some amorphous, conforms to whatever we want them to metaphorical sense, but in the literal sense as well. People tend to explain away miracles, because miracles would tend to a miracle Maker. A Maker Who is real, immanent and transcendent at once, and who must in one way or another be related to. It's very uncomfortable. But our wishes do not change anything one way or another.

An example of this is in looking for the actual Mount Sinai, biblical scholars usually look for a mountain with a history of volcanic activity. Why? Because how else to explain the loud noises and bright lights coming from the top of the mountain as Moses talked with God - unless there was actually a God to talk to? No, it's just a metaphor, we can twist it so we're safe and God will just look like us and _we won't be judged, we won't be called to account_. By making God disappear into a meaningless metaphor, I am safe from damnation - and salvation. He - it - is explained away. That is how it has to be because that is how I wish it to be. The facts, which I was not there to witness in person, be damned.

John Shelby Spong,

I think you're confuse. What you're describing is Santa Claus and not Jesus. Make your own religion and don't try to twist the scriptures. If it's money that you are after, Santa has a lot of it. Be his friend and sell his gifts.

"In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile." "In Christ"--of course, because Jews don't and, your wishes to the contrary, won't go there. Your Christian triumphalism, with its accompanying lack of respect for Jews and Judaism, shows through.

I find it very perplexing someone who says, " I do believe that in him and through him people found a way into that which is eternal" and also says "I do not believe that the deceased body of Jesus was resuscitated physically on the third day and was restored to the life."

It just seems very silly that someone would believe that Jesus gives eternal life or "God's eternal presence" but refuses to believe he preformed much simpler miracles. He can give us eternal life, but cannot even defeat death himself (through his own resurrection)? What a useless God! What kind of life can he offer us if he cannot save even himself from death? How can one believe that God can give us a new life/humanity but not believe he can multiply bread? Yet, Spong, do you believe God is responsible for bread in the first place? The creation of which is a miracle in itself.

Read the chapter "The Romance of Orthodoxy" in Chesterton's book for a more thorough rebuttal of this theology. Also the book "Miracles" by C.S. Lewis philosophically shows the plausibility of miracles and their necessity for Christianity to make sense in the first place. He also shows the theological meaning of many miracles and how they are vitally integrated into Christianity.

SeattlePte- "Pathetic. SOS, Jack. Nothing new here, folks. Same old, same old."

And you're a worthless, loathsome, son of a you know what, you god damn Pharisee.

You couldn't follow Jesus if he chained you to the back fo a pickup.

It is high time man learned that one need know nothing of Christianity or any other cult and need not believe in New or Old Testament or any other book to recognize and enjoy the personal spiritual presence and guidance of Jesus in everyday life. Something happened at Pentecost that changed the nature of reality on this planet forever.

On that day the Son of God, having completed his incarnation as Joshua ben Joseph, the carpenter of Nazareth, sent his spirit into the world that all men might know him personally, as a totally trustworthy friend, a reliable companion and guide through all the triumphs and tribulations of a mortal existence.

The Apostles, who had known Jesus personally, immediately recognized this supernatural invasion of their minds as the "promised comforter." They were probably not the only ones so aware across the planet, but they had been specifically prepared to expect this event by Jesus and, as the sources for all written records of the event, are made to appear to have had a unique consciousness of the experience.

In any case, as one generation gave way to the next, all were born with this new spiritual endowment. Without a memory of an earlier consciousness (without Jesus' Spirit of Truth), they would not know that what they possessed was in any way different from their ancestors. But it surely was. And it worked within the hearts and minds of all men, whether they knew it or not. And those who have given themselves willingly to work consciously with the spirit have been in the forefront of a continuing revolution in spiritual consciousness.

What does this Spirit do in the human mind? Chiefly, it creates an intuitive consciousness of the ideal we call "truth". We might think of it as the Spirit of Truth. But Truth is much more than mere factuality. Discovery of Truth requires both an understanding of fact and of the limits of pure logic. Truth illuminates our path in life and helps us find God's will for us.

Any person who sincerely asks within his mind for guidance in life will find the True path. To follow the path, know that Jesus' Spirit of Truth will never challenge you beyond your spiritual ability, and conquering each challenge leads to your progressive spiritual growth.

As you grow in conscious interaction with the Spirit of Truth you may come to think of the spiritual presence in your mind as a person with whom you consciously converse. Know this person as Jesus and grow in friendship with him.

Thoughts to Provoke Your Thoughts

Jesus could come back to life from the dead. He could even resurrect dead bodies already rotting in the cemetery. But never, could he ever, resurrect the dead minds of men and the dead hearts of women living in his own community. Naturally, these were among the very same religious morons who got Jesus arrested, tried, and crucified on a cross.

Poch Suzara

i believe jesus is real, that he is at the right hand of God , in heven interceding for us, as the apostle Psul says, and that this book wich i have not read as yet, is to be conforming to the unbeliever way of thinking,
Remember what is said of resurrection if this is not true vain is our belief.
The author is speaking like a nonbeliever instead of a believer.
Take Jesus to the people in the light of the Bible.

Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!

The old apostate is at it again. Same old stuff Jack, we've heard it a million times before.

You think you're daring and revolutionary, with your denial of the Christian faith. But it's worn out hogwash that by now is just plain tedious.

Oh! Jack Spong is denying the divinity of Christ!

Oh! Oh! Jack Spong doesn't believe in the Resurrection!

Oh! Oh! Oh! Jack Spong has another book about the same old stuff he's written about for the past (fill in the blank) years!

Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Jack Spong has a bold (ha ha!) vision of a new "Christianity" that he thinks makes sense, and he wants everyone else to follow him instead of Jesus!

Ha ha ha ha ha!!!

See Jack. See Jack write. See Jack make a wad of dough. Oh, oh oh! Write, Jack, write! See Jack write the same old crap again and again, and still make more dough! Trite, Jack, trite!

Pathetic. SOS, Jack. Nothing new here, folks. Same old, same old.

The arrogance of this, of course, is that Mr. Spong presumes that only the citizens of the 21st century are modern--or post-modern. Every new age is exactly that and wrestles with faith in its own ways and with its own terms. And why does Mr. Spong, (surely he does not wish to keep so old a title as "bishop"!), still use such ancient and traditional terms as "eternal, death, finite, transcending, door, realm, divinity, presence, human, new, universal, love, humanity, or wholeness." No fair tossing out only half the language and half the concepts and half the explanations and half the pretzels, but keeping the half that the 21st century Hallmark shops think absolutely divine.

Mr spong's P.T. Barnum spiritual shell game version of Christianity in which he has overflowing "forgiveness" for those that have insulted his majesty,yet professes no virgin born savior,somehow capable of forgiving him, lie in a drity animals feeding trough 2000 years ago is nothing less than a feeble attempt to place himself on par with God.
Quite old,and quite tired.
But as P.T.Barnum and this website attest to, there is a sucker born every minute

On the radio today, there was a preacher that said that god created us so we could worship him. Sounds like the god of the bible, all in all, a grade A pr*ck. He even made his son bite the wax tadpole for his jollies instead of just pardoning humanity for its original sin. By the way, thanks god for saddling everyone to ever exist, at birth, with a dirty slate.

I agree with the people who say that this man should no longer be a bishop. He should aspire to bigger things than trying to rehabilitate a mythology that is beyond salvaging.

That's a nice and thoughtful post, Eric. I don't think I've seen you here before, so welcome.

I'll agree that Bishop Spong's take on things has value: I've really moved on from Christianity, but I don't like to think the whole exercise was a total wash. But if there's good in there, you gotta make it so, especially when there are waves of pressure of Bible-idolatry and theological fascism ready to strip the last remaining goodnesses and leave you with a corrupt and authoritarian system.

(One thing a lot of Christians don't get about 'Pagans is that we really don't actually wish you ill, ...a lot of our ancestors really tried to make good on all that stuff, and that's to be respected. Even if we'll be bulled no ahem about certain things of current affairs interest.)

"Yes, the miracles make Jesus a bit of an uncomfortable figure, but I can't bring myself to jettison them, for two reasons. First, belief in miracles, or at least allowing for their possibility, frees me from the narrow materialism of my own world view and opens my mind to the possibility of the transcendent."

Frankly, to me, that miracles thing looks much like your theism: you struggle to believe in *one* God while being atheistic about all others.

Miracles are really only uncomfortable for people if they're only allowed to credit what they can't immediately-explain to either Jesus or the Devil.

Since Christian belief that only Christ could do miracles, (at least unless you're proclaimed a saint after being executed for the deviltry of 'doing miracles' or whatever, ..well, it seems to me Christians got big drama about casting themselves as the only spiritual thing in an otherwise-dead world... except of course for what can be suspected as 'satanic influence.'

It's just a living world, and there's wonders in it.

And just maybe, you could ease up about that.

It's a big universe.

Read Matthew 24. Jesus tells us He knew this kind of nonsense would go on. He called it false teachers who would lead people away from the truth. Read it...it's all there.

I have no quarrel with Mr. Spong's current project to make Jesus real to 21st-century people. What I find ironic, however, is that he finds belief in any of Jesus' miracles or the miraculous aspects of his birth or life to be confining or restricting. I admit that as a modern person, a product of the prevailing materialism of the post-Enlightenment (and, yes, even postmodern) world, I share a certain distrust of the miraculous.

Yes, the miracles make Jesus a bit of an uncomfortable figure, but I can't bring myself to jettison them, for two reasons. First, belief in miracles, or at least allowing for their possibility, frees me from the narrow materialism of my own world view and opens my mind to the possibility of the transcendent. And not just a transcendence that is abstract and intellectual, but one that is also real in a way that affects me not just in my head, but where I live and move and have my being. Second, without the miracles, Jesus is not the son of God, but just another guy with a really cool message, kind of like an even better version of Barack Obama. And if that is true, I agree with St. Paul that Christians above all others are to be pitied.

" Tome Walters:

When John Shelby Spong says he does not believe in Jesus's virgin birth, resurrection from death, ascension into heaven, nor a Biblical account of one of his miracles, he rejects a large majority of Christian belief. "

Actually, I think he wants to concentrate on your better qualities, ...you do have them, but squabbling about such things as authoritative- excuses to not-necessarily-treat-your-neighbors-so-well really isn't one of them.

You keep losing sight of that love-yer-neighbors-and-be-known-by-your fruits bit. My understanding is that's pretty essential.

For what a Pagan's view is worth.

If you don't wanna get over that, I'll just thank you to be a little less spendthrift with the meek's inheritance, ye-who-think-yer-mighty.

OK? :)

Beautifully said. I don't agree with everything you said, but it is a better synopsis of my Christianity and faith than that of any evangelical or fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity. I do not let them define for me the terms of being a Christian and I am glad that you do not as well.

All the above sounds nice, but none of it has a relationship with the bible and Christianity, except to make Jesus a soft sell instead of the normal resurrection.

This author interprets the bible to intend something else that the bible does not intend. This author appears to be attempting to mix Buddhist concepts with Christian concepts.

Buddhism accepts the Buddha entered nirvana while Christians believe Jesus was born from an immaculate conception, and rose to heaven without a trace of his existence.

Two quite different teachings.

Patrick

Nic: you say you've: "accepted Jesus as my Savior because of the miracles that are everywhere in his history."

Have you asked yourself why you or anyone needs a savior? and why you're so impressed with miracles? To me, walking on water, ascending into heaven, etc., seem like magic tricks that don't really help humanity in any way.

Besides, has it occurred to you that the stories of the miracles are just that - stories? like Batman and Robin or Aladdin and the magic lamp.

One of our neighbors, a man who spent his entire life--spotless in every respect--in service to others, died this past week. We left Easter mass two-thirds of the way through to attend his memorial service at a Reform synagogue a couple of miles away. The memorial service was less steeped in metaphysics than the mass; otherwise the continuities between the two services were far more impressive than the differences. If one sloughs off the doctrinal husks, as Bishop Spong does, one discerns a perennial spirituality beneath the symbols. The essence of it is charity, and it's very far from being a Christian preserve.

It is refreshing to have a Christian scholar actually report back on the absurdity of the Christian dogma! These flights of fancy may have had some usefulness with the various pagan (non-Christian) peoples of the 4th, 5th, and 65th centuries, but today they have no usefulness and just make the useful parts of the Christian scriptures burued under the mountains of absurd trivia, lies, and ridiculus claims! Unfortunately, such enlightenment has no connection to Evangelical Christians, Catholics, and most other Christian sects; but a may provide a path for those "souls" seeking to escape the confinement of their cultural identity with these Christian cults.

Happy Ishtar! May the Goddess provide the Love and the Fertility (in the fields!) that she is invoked to bring!

Yonkers, New York
23 March 2008

John Shelby Spong says that he can believe in Jesus "outside the boundaries of relgion."

And he makes it clear that he no longer believes in the marvelous and miraculous things about Jesus, such as Jesus having been of virgin birth, of Jesus feeding a huge multitude with a single loaf of bread, of Jesus resurrecting after three days of entombment, of Jesus levitating physically upward to a place called heaven to join God, his Father!

But these are precisely those marvelous and miraculous capacities, characteristics and actions which define Jesus Christ as a transcedental being, above and beyond mortal man, as God the Son.

Rip them away from him--as John Shelby Spong has done--and you reduce Jesus simply to the status of another nortal human being, yes a political activist, who is at war with the status quo, with the old Jewish order, with the Sanhedrin, and with Judea's Roman masters headed by the consul Pontius Pilate.

Yes, one can believe in Jesus, the mortal and historical Jesus, completely outside the boundaries of religion.

One can believe in that Jesus purely in secular terms, in the same manner you can believe in Mahatma Gandhi, in King George III, in George W. Bush, in Barack Obama, in Hillary Rhodham Clinton, and in many other secular mortal men and women.

There is such a thing as secular morality which springs naturally from the better impulses of human beings, and which is outside the boundaries of religion as we know it.

My sense is that John Shelby Spong wants to dissociate Jesus from religion, probably having come to the painful realization, the painful truth, that religion--in fact all religions--is nothing more than a clever fraud foisted by calculating and manipulative men for the egregious purpose of exercising control over them.

And that explains why in an Age of Enlightenment, in our Scientific Age, there is no reconciling Religion with Reason--ever!

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

I am an untroubled atheist interested in the universal human fixation on deism. Mr Spong appears as a bright and steady light as the plausible explanation overf the muddy river of Christianity. He removes the political aspects of the "control of the masses" and focusses instead on the perception that we inhabit a world in which we can be more than this bellicose, greedy and shallow little creature called Man. He suggests that civilization as well as the individual may exist in an awakened state if we substitute profound thought for blinding faith. Spong is a holy man.

When John Shelby Spong says he does not believe in Jesus's virgin birth, resurrection from death, ascension into heaven, nor a Biblical account of one of his miracles, he rejects a large majority of Christian belief. Then attempts to reinvent Christianity in a way that pleases him : one that serves the people, but does not worship a transcendent God, his son Jesus at His right hand, nor the Holy Spirit. I think his Christianity is half right--God calls us to serve the people and work for justice on earth. I won't know until I'm in His presence after my physical death if God is amused, but I will look around and see if Spong is there. And I'll know right where to look: Paul's reeducation class for self-absorbed clergymen.

I am an untroubled atheist interested in the universal human fixation on deism. Mr Spong appears as a bright and steady light as the plausible explanation overf the muddy river of Christianity. He removes the political aspects of the "control of the masses" and focusses instead on the perception that we inhabit a world in which we can be more than this bellicose, greedy and shallow little creature called Man. He suggests that civilization as well as the individual may exist in an awakened state if we substitute profound thought for blinding faith. Spong is a holy man.

I mean, really. "Obsessed with controlling and denying sex," really isn't any different from just plain 'Obsessed with sex.'

Except it takes more time, I suppose.

You wanna see some good in the world, *bring it, already.*

Gods.

" a Jesus who calls me beyond my limits into a new humanity, beyond my prejudices into a new wholeness, beyond my religion into a new courage to live for others and to be all that I can be."

What baloney. Join the Army, then you can be all that you can be.

"If he is real why doesn't "HE" end the suffering in Darfur?"

Well, this isn't exactly the kind of question Pagans get in a knot about, but just as a little constructive criticism, *ahem.*

Just maybe his people are a *little* too focused on making life harder for queer people to get much else done?

"-The Episcopal Church's first openly gay bishop- V. Gene Robinson recently admitted to being an alcholic in need of rehab..."

Hey, better than pretending to have miraculously ha your brain architecture rearranged, oppressing other gay people, an getting caught buying meth from your gay prostitute. :) If I were a queer Christian, I'd probably have taken to drink at some point, too. :)

Ain't like the ones who preach the real homophobia don't get keep caught diddling the underaged, and *using* the homophobia to keep their victims helpless, is it?

Gods.

The way the *Catholic* church acts, it's as if it's about a need to oppress adult gays while claiming gay Catholics ought to have it beaten out of em and into denial and 'sin-drama' at an early age, then go on to lead a 'celibate life,' ...for which there's only one respectable place in the Catholic worldview... The clergy.

It's not that complicated. And 'Apostasy' isn't really the big problem.

Failure to accept human dignity of *all* is the problem, for *many* churches. How many preachers get caught with their hookers and demand forgiveness and say it just goes to show how bad sex is...

A bishop who had trouble with how he was trreated as a gay guy and humbly turned it to the good, well,

Call that apostasty, but that bishop isn't 'apostate.'

You want apostasy, you talk to me.

If he is real why doesn't "HE" end the suffering in Darfur? (What did the people there ever do to suffer so much?)
How could "HE" have admonished slaves to "serve your master as you might me" ..(esp.
if they are Christians)?
Will there be a separate heaven for former slaves and slave owners?
If he is real, then why does "HE" allow so much confusion in "HIS" name?
Why didn't "HE" write his own book?
(ever heard of "selective memories"?)
Why is it so many of the miracles in the bible not be substainiated; i.e. the parting and subsequent mass drowing in the Red Sea?

Most accept the beliefs of their parents without questioning or examining the tenets thereof.