All Comments (46)

Knota and Anonymous: Yes of coarse I know my history and that Christmmas has been intertwined with with a once Nordic/ European pagan holiday. However , this is not completly true as we dont know the exact day Christ was born we incorporated the holiday to please the paagns and calling it Christmas. The extras were added to please the pagans so their wasnt and uprsing like Christmas trees and what not. However, the ancient Santa Clause as you should know was a Saint and was cannoized as a Saint ot this day . He derived from from Turkey during the 7th century and lived in Turkey when it was Christian nation and spread goodness around the nation.

On the subject of Christians not being persecuted this is pure nonsense. The history of early Christians goes back to the Early Romans ( Italy today ) as the Jews were as well. Yet the early Jewish people also persecuted the early Christians thinking they were a radical cult from Judaism. As we all know the Romans who once perscuated the early Christians , they themselves later converted to Christianity including the leaders Ceasar. Yes , we also know the missonaries of the church throughout Medieval times and later the pagan people of Europe and later the new world. They did horrible things and not even the church denies to this todayt and cannot take that away , it is set in stone and history. However, in recent times the belated Pope John Paul II was the first Christian leader to extend his openess and respect and build a relationship by visiting Holy leaders of The Eastern Orthodox , The Muslim Clerics , and Major Jewish Rabbi's. Visting Synagogues , Mosque , and other Christian Shrines. This opened a dialogue for the first time in 1,000 or more years for openess and peace among all religions. So the meaning of a hateful Christian people is obviously not in our doctrine and teachings yet only a very small scale of minority of Christians who perceive in their own perception of what God means to them by trying to shove ideals down someones throats.

As far as being persecuted, yes we are !!! It is in the world that Christians are being murdered and killed and turned down for education , jobs , etc based on their Christian background from around the globe to Nigeria, Somali , Lebanon, Egypt , Malayasia , Iraq, Israel , Europe, and and the rest of the Middle East and across the Western world by Liberals who think that these once Christian nations should not reflect upon their roots anymore. Even in the European Union the Christian faith is not being recognized. So Don't even say that we Christians are not being persecuated especially if your not one , and you dont experience and understand what it is to be a Christian in today world. Saying things like we are outdated in the world and not up to par with the real world. Yet you should always learn that you cannot just wipe history clean and people away with a wand of a new modern thinking and mentality. I personally say I was persecuted not once but several times as I meet people of different understandings . Once some Atheist in America and Europe and once they asked what I believed in and foudn I was Christian they always challenged and some times aggressively attacked verbally and kept going on and on about what foolishness it is to believe and I was a fool to believe in something I cannot see. As well I was once was employed by a Jewish employer for a travel agent and once and he mocked me and laughed how I was a gentile during Christmas time as I was the only non-Jewish person in the office. Another time I was employed at a hotel by a Muslim employer who was distured that during Ash Wednesday ( the day I worked ) why I had that on my head and he did not want it on a place of business, yet at the same time many customers including two pilots and a flight attendant had the Ashes on their heads as they walked out in the lobby and he then was silent. To conclude I have friends who are Jewish and Muslim and these people are good. I even have a best friend who is atheist with no intenstions of changing them and vice versa. Yet I know all religious faiths have soem persecution or the other. God Bless !

Dear Emm,

In order to admit that I am fallible and too quick to trust in my own memory instead of referencing the Bible, I found a mistake in my original post which is quite important.

I said that "beasts" in Gen 1:25 was an alternate for dragon. That is incorrect, rather, in Genesis 1:21, Whale is better translated as Monster or Dragon.
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMB01C001.htm

I believe that the King James translators(God Bless them anyways) were attempting to make the Bible more acceptable to scoffers of their day, who probably said, "Show us your dragons! We have searched Europe; the Near East; the Middle East; the Far East; and now the new world; and there are no dragons!" So they tried to fix it by substituting a more acceptable term for monster; indeed the Whale is a monster of an animal and was created on day 5; but so were the waterborn dinosaurs.

If there is one thing we can learn from this lesson, we can trust the Bible even when it 'appears' to be incorrect; as knowledge increases, the Bibles truth spans out into greatness.

Yours,
Canyon

In-the-Garden-of-Eden, Baby, (for spelling purposes)

You have asked some extremely important, and hopefully heartfelt questions, and I apologize for not responding post haste! Please accept my answers now.

About repentance and the sins to follow; Repentance in a saving-context is a one-time act. I know this because after repenting, I was born-again, and a definite change occurred in my life. Repentance is your confessing your unrighteousness to God. As I was talking about different translations with Emm, the word for confession in Greek also means, "to agree with", so when you tell God you are sorry for lying, you are agreeing with His view of your sin, that lying is wrong. The act of repentance is not an effort for you to know every sin you have committed against God, but rather to realize your sinful nature and to open your heart so that God can cleanse you.

After you have repented, you will no longer seek sin in order to dive into it, but rather, when a Christian sins, it 'should' be an accidental slip into sin, with Godly sorrow to follow. These are evidences of the new Heart, which Christ will create in you, and are an excellent way to make your election to God’s family sure.

The 'steps' to follow are not so much steps, but submission to God. If you don't mind, I'd like to take you back to the parachute analogy. If you jump out of an airplane, you have transgressed the law of Gravity, and will face the consequences as such. In order to save yourself from gravity, you have to realize that the impact is about to kill you, and then realize that the parachute (not anything you can do) is what will save you from Gravity. In order to be saved from the wrath of God against sin; you must realize that you are freefalling through the Law of God, and that Christ is the only method of salvation. You don't need to know the physics of gravity, the coefficient of friction of air, the solidity of the ground, the fragility of the human body, or the statistics of survival of falling from 6,000 feet, in order to be saved by the parachute, but you do have to acknowledge gravity and trust the parachute.

Those in the Amazon are not ‘screwed’ because they haven't heard of the parachute, they are 'screwed' because they have transgressed the Law. An Amazon will not go to Hell for disbelief in God, but rather for lying, stealing, lusting, hatred, and coveting. Fortunately for the Amazon, they have the law written on their hearts. Just as a baby knows that if they crawl off of a table, gravity will get them, a human knows that it is wrong to lie, to steal, to murder, to rape. If a person will acknowledge their conscience and realize that creation requires a creator, God will find a way to save them. A missionary will find them, a Bible will float down the Amazon or fall out of an airplane, God will reveal himself to them in a dream, or any other ways. But the person much seek after God.

Evidence for God reaching out to those who seek him are small cells of Christians in Baghdad, in China, in Tehran, places where Christians should not exist, where Bibles are illegal, people get saved by Jesus Christ.

Children have an innate trust in God. There is a beautiful theory called the 'age of accountability' in which it is surmised at which age a child will go to Hell if they die. If you have taught your child that God is imaginary, and they have believed it by three, then their trust fails, and a three-year old may go to Hell...however, if a child is taught to trust God but hasn't been born into the family of God (born-again), I believe that the age may extend as high as 10 years old. The Bible is clear that children have faith in God, and their faith will deliver them to Heaven if they die.

A good Christian will never pick and choose Bible verses that he feels are true. I often choose Bible verses for application, but that is not in exclusion of other scripture. The Bible gives us confidence in Itself by telling us that all scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for understanding.

For that reason the history concerning the absolute perfection required of priests is an excellent look into Old Testament life. At the time, shellfish was likely to kill you, just like sin. Today, most of the world has progressed to knowing how to cook shellfish to make it safe; separating pagan rituals from Jewish God-given rituals, and different rituals which required submission of the Jewish people to God. Today we are under a new covenant, our submission to God must be in spirit, the circumcision that was required of Jews to show allegiance has become the circumcision of the heart (not the actual organ).

But we know that God said that lying lips are an abomination to the Lord. Abominations were abominations then, and they are abominations now. The Bible is quite clear that homosexuality is an Abomination to the Lord.

Our culture has redefined homosexuality to two men or two women loving each other in a non-physical sense. Truthfully, I love many men as friends. There is nothing wrong with that. That is not what the Bible is talking about, it is talking about putting a penis in an anus, in 'laying' together, in 'knowing' each other. I recently heard a terrifying statistic that the AVERAGE practicing, out of the closet, homosexual male will have 2,100 partners in his life. THAT is an abomination to the Lord.

It is also interesting to note that the horrible diseases of gonorrhea, herpes II, and HIV are extremely contagious; but EASILY avoided by having only one partner.

In closing, I appreciate your questions, which show you are genuinely interested in answers. Please examine your soul, know that God has seen every sinful thought and action that all of us have done, even moreso, for evidence, every transgression has be written to your conscience for review on the day of your judgment. Christ will save you, will snatch you from Hell, as soon as you reach out to him in humbleness and trust.

Emm, first of all, I would like to say what a pleasure it is to see you posting on On-Faith. I like the adage, "A Bible that is falling apart, usually belongs to a person that is not." It certainly sounds like your Bible is well read and I admire your character.

The fact that the Bible is the perfect revelation from God, and the fact that it is infallible and inerrant, are big drivers to me on why that is important. I know that is circular logic, because if it weren't perfect, I wouldn't be defending it as such. The fact that it is infallible and inerrant is an excellent proof for God, and I enjoy using this fact and examples for sharing with the open-minded intellectual.

You are absolutely correct when you say that the Bible is not a science book. It certainly is not a science book. But the science that is included in the Bible is perfect; so we are able to use Science as another selling point for the Word of God. For a good list, but one that is not complete, please click on the link I included if you click on "Canyon Shearer"; number 1, which was uploaded to the internet without a verse, is refering to Hebrews 11:3.

The only point I would argue with you about is concerning the completeness of morality in the Bible. The Bible is 100% complete in two arena's;
1. Revelation from God
2. Morality

For things that are not spoken of; such as the lawfullness of the death penalty when the transgression is against men. (The Bible is clear that transgression against God warrants death, and God will get His retribution; whether that retribution is the soulful death of the sinner, or the death to sin paid on the Cross at Calvary) The Bible has a number of catchalls that place the conscience as the definition of morality; Treat your Neighbor as you would be treated and If it is a sin to your conscience, it is a sin to God.

Moreover, similar to what you said, the term righteousness is where we get the term right. As much as modern culture would have us believe there is no absolute right or wrong, the Bible tells us otherwise. I encourage all Christians and non-believers to always do their best to be on the side of the right.

I agree with you completely about the reading of the Bible for spiritual health; in which an 'expansive' reading of the Bible is necessary. On the opposite side, in order to save the unregenerate sinners of the world, an expository reading of the Bible is necessary; understanding, to the best of our ability, the meaning of each verse and how it relates to purposes of sharing the Love of Christ with the world. More people have been saved by direct confrontation than have been saved by thinking Christians are good people.

I would encourage you to look up two sermons by Ray Comfort, "Hell's Best Kept Secret" and "True and False Conversion", both available at livingwaters.com or sermonaudio.com They speak on evangelism, and also on why churches that go the route of the Episcopal Church fail.

That said, I sincerely appologize and wish that I didn't come across as judgemental and intolerant. It is my opinion that forming a relationship with someone before telling them about Christ is the best way to share the faith. However, on a message board where 1 posts and 5,000 read, it is impossible to form a lasting relationship. It is my sincere hope that Christ will lead someone from China or Kurdistan, or any other corner of the earth that would otherwise never meet a person of God, to this website so that they can read what I believe to be a faithful representation of the Gospel of Christ. There are many who have never heard the clear-cut version; for example, I believe that Bishop Spong is among that number.

To post it one more time, I love this YouTube video:
youtube.com/watch?v=dpqrzQNc89w

Thank you for your response and for helping me to be a more loving Christian.

Is the power of healthcare in the system? -or- Is it in the people who give it?

Is the succubus of healthcare in the people who give it? -or- Is it in the system?

Would you continue to allow people who don't give health take from it, by helping to redefine yet another system?

Hi Emm!

It's an answer that's most appropriately defined in questions.

What is healthcare?
The care of health? -or- A system that surrounds it?

Which of the above is your objective?
Which of them is your focused means?

Why over-complicate the matter of a simple objective with the means?

John,

“Leave collective imaginations to those who imagine they can do better systematically and not in themselves for others. The only system which "works" is love and grace.”

I’m with you on the last line. I’m not sure where you’re going with the first sentence. Can you elaborate? Thanks.

Emm,

Jesus was accepting of sinners and men of materialization - so that they would unlearn sin and materialization - through love and grace. His crop of acceptance would be brilliantly lit, were the burnings of grace lit in America, today.

To address issues of poverty, expansion of health care, etc. requires not a refocus of collective imagination. It requires more of Christ's message. Take the poor man in - accept him into your home and feed him, heal those who are sick.

Leave collective imaginations to those who imagine they can do better systematically and not in themselves for others. The only system which "works" is love and grace.

In-a-Godda-da-Vida's baby:

Basically what I see is a country that, in spite of its claimed Christian heritage, has lost track of what Jesus taught and lived. It is hard to imagine Jesus looking out onto the current American cultural scene and saying: Amen to that! Far more likely He’d be championing the issues of social justice, not fanning the flames of what I’ve come to refer to as “the mindless accumulation of stuff” and all that emanates from it. After reading the New Testament many times, it is hard to reconcile our culture with the values Jesus espoused, like living peacefully and lovingly with our families, our neighbors, our communities and the larger world.

While I would humbly submit that neither I nor any one person ought to be in the business of playing “king for a day”, there are any number of things that I’d change, given the opportunity. For example:

-Refocus our collective imaginations on issues rooted in faith, hope and love, such as the elimination of poverty, the expansion of health care and tending to the conservation of the earths resources, just to name a few. And away from the spiritual poverty that is at the root of our national obsession with power, wealth, environmental waste, consumerism and militarism.

PS. I’ve not heard the Iron Butterfly in quite a while. Your name brings back good memories.

Bishop Spong,
You have embraced grace; and that is a good thing. Yeshua's message to man was not one of persecution or judgement of men - by men. It was merciful acceptance of them in their differences and practices. A church, as a body of Christ, can promote and endorse scriptures relating to sin - but it can't teach that to those who are of that sin, without acceptance. If not teaching to those who are in need of it - then it only serves to divide men. You of them, first. Then they of you, having already been accepted. This requires patience. The miracle of Christ was that he did not beat the law, he merely exposed it to men, as it was already written in men, through love.

R.A. Moore: His tap is the same for everyone He taps. But no one will understand His tapping until it happens to them. Keep planting seeds so that when they are tapped - they will know.

EMM,

You wrote in part, "I’d also suggest that there is very little in the New Testament that would buttress the popular culture of the USA, especially as regards consumerism, militarism, the death penalty and a host of other issues."

While I think I see where you are going with that thought and (if I am correct in my assumption) I agree, could you expand on that a bit?

Also, if you could change the popular culture of the USA, where would you start?

Peacefully yours,
IAGDV'sB

The above post was mine. Sorry about that.

Canyon Shearer:

First I’d like to say that I am a Christian. Secondly, I read and study the Bible every day. That said, I’m still curious as to why the issue of biblical inerrancy is so important to so many Christians. While I’d agree that there is reputable history to be found in the Bible, there is a great deal left unsaid as well. I also do not see the Bible as a useful source scientific data. The Bible speaks truth on many subjects, but in and of itself is does not answer all questions, even moral questions. Reading, studying and prayerful reflection are all required to grasp the truth and beauty of the Bible’s message.

As I’ve posted elsewhere on this forum, my reading of 1 Corinthians 13, is that I am called as a Christian to be loving above all else. Even faith and hope are less important than love. To put it in the simplest of terms, I’d rather be loving than be right about my faith, the inerrancy of scripture or anything else.

Unfortunately, my personal experience with many Christians that hold to positions similar to your own is, regrettably, one of judgment and intolerance. My own position is that I am always better off taking a more expansive view of the Bible, focusing on its greater truths rather than its particulars. For example; I’d say a fair reading of the New Testament would conclude that the issue of justice is more important than almost anything else. I’d also suggest that there is very little in the New Testament that would buttress the popular culture of the USA, especially as regards consumerism, militarism, the death penalty and a host of other issues. But I realize these are not positions shared by the majority of those Christians I know who identify themselves as fundamentalist or believe the Bible to be inerrant.

I truly appreciate your thoughtful comments and I will explore the sources you suggested. Thanks for taking the time to help me understand. I appreciate it.

Canyon Shearer wrote, "In order to receive the gift of Heaven so preciously earned by God, not by man, Repent of your Sins, think about every sin you can remember, confess it to God, beg His forgiveness, and Trust that His cleansing action is enough get you into Heaven."

After I think of every sin I have committed, confess it to God and beg His forgiveness, should I kill myself so as to not commit another sin?

Or, should I repeat this process after every sin? Do I have to ask forgiveness for all the sins that were already forgiven or do I just start with the new batch. What if I forgot to ask forgiveness for a sin in a previous session?

What if I think of every sin I have committed, confess it to God and beg His forgiveness and then live the rest of my life completely sinless (granted, this is a big "if") -- but forgot a sin in the remembering step, am I screwed? Will God say, "Tough toenails, you did not follow the steps completely."

What if there is someone in the darkest, deepest depths of the Amazon who has never heard these steps and therefore never follows them, are they automatically screwed?

What about my 3-year-old who has sinned and was born with The Stain but does not yet have the mental capacity to remember every sin or even to conceptualize God, is he screwed?

Finally, why do Bible-thumpers pick up on the passages in the Bible about homosexuality and hold it up as proof but gloss over the other stuff in Leviticus -- how women are unclean while having the period and cannot go to Church; how women are unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy (but are unclean for 66 days after giving birth to a girl) and cannot go to church; how eating shellfish is forbidden; how we can kill our kids if they ever curse us; how it is forbidden to wear wool and cotton together -- not to mention polyester; how priests should not have blemishes or be blind or lame or have a flat nose or have a broken hand or foot or be a dwarf or have a crooked back or scruvy or scabs?

Someone asks why believe the Bible. The answer given is that it is inerrant.

Only a fool would take such a non-answer. But no one ever said Christians were bright.

Christianity was preached to the foolish and the foolish adopted it. When they were numerous enougb they destroyed all libraries and other faiths and forced compliance. Never before or since has the scum come on top in this way.

I so agree: it does take an entire life to be oneself and discover meaning.

peace and acceptance in your journey's
http://www.personaltao.com/

Dear Emm, thoughtful and thought provoking questions from your corner, they show that you are actually interested in knowledge and understanding the Christian religion.

It is interesting to note the contextual reading of the Bible, as that maybe one of the greatest difficulties we have when reading the Bible. For that reason, great Bible scholars such as John MacArthur(to name one) have devoted their lives pouring over history in order that we know the very essence of the context at the time. In the MacArthur study Bible, which sells for next to nothing, is a wealth of knowledge on the life and times of the Bible authors. I recommend getting it if you are genuinely interested in learning about the Bible.

For example, I read the Book of Daniel a while ago from a normal Bible; I was pretty confused, much of the book is about prophecy using strange animals and I really couldn't figure out what it meant. I recently reread the Book of Daniel in conjunction with MacArthur's Bible notes and was astounded to realize that the weird animals were beautiful prophecies for the rise and fall of kingdoms, and the history that MacArthur provides shows the exact time that Alexander the Great toppled the Mede-Persion empire, which was 100 years after Daniel prophecized the fall of Mede-Persia.

One incredible argument for the inspiration of the Bible is that the oldest Book at 3,600 years old to the newest Book at 1,900 years old are still relevant to life today, with the exception of when the Bible reverts to being a History Book instead of a Book of Spirituality. Understanding these switches is instrumental in understanding the context of the Bible as well.

Your next question, considering the perfection of the word placement, comma, and period usage, this takes an excellent knowledge of Bible history, which I don't have, but fortunately using Strong's and MacArthur's notes as well as others, there are incredible truths to be found.

Translations are rarely perfect translations of the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek; so it is vital to compare Bible translations to each other and to the original in order to ensure accurate reading.

For example, the 1611 King James Version contains three major translation issues which do not constitute errors, but rather confuse the meaning of the text.

The first, in the Book of Genesis, the Bible says that God created the Beasts, and the Cattle...The word for Beasts better translates, "Dragons", however the 1611 translaters of the Bible had never seen a dragon, didn't know about dinosaurs, and therefore did not want to confuse readers and went with the acceptable, "beasts". Now we know that there were dinosaurs, and translating the word to dragons makes the Bible less ambiguous in that arena.

Second, the greek word, "Agape" in the 13th Chapter of Corinthians 1 was tranlated as "charity" in 1611, as the exact meaning of Agape was not known; charity is an admirable attempt to translate the word, but today through different manuscripts of the original Greek Bible, we understand that Agape means 'unconditional love'. This does not change the meaning of 1 Cor 13, rather it lets us understand it just a little better.

Finally, in 1611 the word, 'science' was a direct translation to knowledge, and hence was not changed from the greek to the english, 2 Timothy reads, "science", however, today, since the word science is no longer synonomous with knowledge, a better translation states, "knowledge".

For these the reasons, it is vital to own at least two (reputable) translations of the Bible in which to consistently verify meanings, and if you are smarter than me, such as most(or all) Bible scholars and Pastors are, most learn the original Greek and Hebrew in order to read original reproductions of the Bible. To trust in a human translation would be wrong, because humans make mistakes, but since the original manuscripts are devoid of mistakes and the 5,300 of them agree as to content and grammar, we are able to say that we have the unadulterated Word of God in front of us.

Finally, there are unreputable translations of the Bible; to name two, the Contemporary English Version contains a blatant mistake which is a terrible translation from the original Hebrew, and the Jefferson Bible, which is deliberately and maliciously edited.

Taking the Bible at face value is acceptable, because it is inerrant and infallible, but for those of us who wish to defend the Bible against critics, understanding the basics is required.

I hope this post answered your questions, and I encourage you to never stop asking questions, for the pursuit of knowledge is the original English definition of science.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention just plain typos. Yes, today's written Word is much improved and foolproof than the writing of the times of Scripture. Thank you God for your gentle, loving reminders...

Dear Bishop, Scripture has been perverted, or just plain misunderstood. Stick closely to the Commandments be they the Two, or the Ten matters not. Hard to screw those up. :) God Bless you good Shepherd of faith, may your reap the love you have sown all the rest of the days of your life 10 fold.

Canyon Shearer:

“But I digress, we trust the Bible because it is a perfect map of human morality, scientifically proven in all ways measurable, historically sound, archaologically proven, prophetically perfect, unedited from start to finish, devoid of contradiction or error, and the proclaimed word of God.”

Rarely have I seen a more succinct description of the beliefs of those who hold the Bible to be inerrant. I do however have a few questions with regard to your position.

-Assuming the validity of your claim, how can you or me or any other living person read and interpret the Bible in the same context that it was written thousands of years ago? How does anyone get past their personal psychological and cultural histories to hear the undiluted word of God? And if we cannot do this, doesn’t the claim of inerrancy become significantly compromised?

-Taking such an extreme position as yours would leave the “greater truths” of the Bible at risk of being completely undermined by the proof that even a single word, comma or period were out of place. This seems a rather high stakes gamble to my mind.

I’ve always been intrigued by the claims of believers such as yourself. If you are open to it, I’d be curious to hear more about why this position appeals to you.

Canyon Shearer: you are pathetic. Have you ever read a scholarly history of the bible? How is is not historically believable in many/most cases but a story got up for a variety of non-historical purposes. Have you read about how the New Testament was designed more to conceal the real Jesus than to reveal him? How Paul who never met Jesus defined the meaning of Jesus while those who knew him best, those around his brother James in Jerusalem, were marginalized and eventually considered heretical?

If you stopped spouting your nonsense and real a real book for a change you might benefit therefrom.

Canyon Shearer: you are pathetic. Have you ever read a scholarly history of the bible? How is is not historically believable in many/most cases but a story got up for a variety of non-historical purposes. Have you read about how the New Testament was designed more to conceal the real Jesus than to reveal him? How Paul who never met Jesus defined the meaning of Jesus while those who knew him best, those around his brother James in Jerusalem, were marginalized and eventually considered heretical?

If you stopped spouting your nonsense and real a real book for a change you might benefit therefrom.

To "Anonymous II":

What's "welcome" about predictable? I find my "drivel" to be much more interesting and entertaining when it isn't, don't you?

(Seriously, much of "on Faith" and "PostGlobal" is worthless, but some makes me think. So please keep it up, Wash Post.)

---I grew up in the Bible Belt of the South about half a mile up the road from the home of Billy Graham in Charlotte, North Carolina. I was an evangelical fundamentalist who accepted the Bible as the literal world of God.---

Well that explains how you became an evangelical christian and not a buddist or taoist or daoist or jew or muslim or... But you probably think it was your choice...

---That Bible, I was taught, said that segregation was the will of God. It said that women were inferior to men and must be quiet in church and could never have authority over men. It said that it was oaky for me to call other religions “pagan” and to suggest that their adherents were going to hell. This was particularly true for the Jews who, I was told, had been responsible for the death of Jesus.---

Yup, that what I read in the bible as well growing up and it was reinforced by the nuns and priests who taught it to me. Did they teach you about how blacks became black? How when god created man he had people swim across a river where the black (we were all originally black) was washed off but those who went to Africa we last and there was little water left in the river so only their hands and feet got washed? They had lots of stories they taught as being true, and as a child I also believed what I was being told. Funny how they concentrated on teaching these prejudices to impressionable children. Those who want to control people always start with the children...

---I was also taught that the Bible condemned homosexuality as either a sickness that needed to be cured or a moral depravity that needed to be overcome.---

Yup, I was taught that too.

---The formative religious experience of my life was confronting each of these prejudices and overcoming them. In the process I was able to rescue the Bible from fundamentalism, so that I could explore it with an open mind and an open heart.---

I trew it all off. Why does God need man to write for Him? Why does God need man to speak for Him? After a short analysis it was clear to me that my religion (catholicism) was being used and twisted to agree with the prejudices of my teachers. It was a tool of control, a tool to get me to not only agree with their prejudices but agree upon pain of everlasting hell.

---It has been out of that long-time growing religious experience that my whole career has been created.---

My experience lead me to dump religion, first by determining that hell did not exist (why would a loving all powerful God allow it to exist) and then realizing God was just as easily imagined. Then dumping those who preach it (i.e., twist it) and instead appreciate science where truth is demanded and prejudice rooted out and vilified. Science has also explained what the bible does not or has gotten totally wrong. The bible contains explanations of what was reality ages ago. We're smarter today. I agree the bible has a lot of moral teachings but the bible is not the sole source of moral teachings. Other religions have them too but my favorite source is Aesop's Fables.

I'm glad to hear you got over your teacher's prejudices but you have one more to overcome, a belief in a God who is all seeing, all controlling, kills some people in favor of others, and condemns some of his children to everlasting hell while giving His other children the comfort of heaven. Talk about a schizophrenic father!

TROLL ALERT!

To anyone new to this forum, Canyon Shearer is a known troll. He has posted on many threads and thrives on hyjacking conversations.

I suggest ignoring him and responding instead to the panelist and other posters.

Why trust the Bible? Why trust yourself?

You are basing your assumption on absolutely nothing whatsoever, only our 'primitive' five senses. Do you realize how much of the world's happenings we are missing my only having five senses? There is a huge spectrum of energy waves, of which we can see and hear less than 1%!

But I digress, we trust the Bible because it is a perfect map of human morality, scientifically proven in all ways measurable, historically sound, archaologically proven, prophetically perfect, unedited from start to finish, devoid of contradiction or error, and the proclaimed word of God.

We can trust the Bible because we can trust God.

Have you ever been wrong about anything? Have you ever not known something? How can you possibly trust yourself to be an authority on what happens postdeparture?

Canyon Shearer: Why trust the Bible, written by primitives for a variety of political, social, economic and sexual reasons -- certainly not the word of some god.

If Bishop Spong were totally honest he would admit this and drop the Bible. What would he have left? Nothing, for there is nothing. Life is a passage between the womb and the tomb.

Reading Bishop Spong's testimony makes it readily apparent why the Episcopal faith is falling apart as we speak.

If you don't trust the Bible, you have no basis of faith, if you don't have a basis for faith, you don't have a church.

How can you trust the Bible to be the correct way to save your soul, and not trust that it is incorrect that two men having sex is wrong?

Or, Bishop Spong, are you counting on your faithful service to grant you entry into Heaven? I am sure you know, and hope you hold it sacred, that the Bible says you need to "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

I would remind you Bishop Spong that Jesus also said something you can trust, "I am the Door" and, "no man cometh to the Father but by me."

The reason He said something like that isn't because He is prejudiced or bigoted, or egocentrical.

Christ said that because it was an extremely difficult thing to get man into Heaven. Heaven is a perfect place, devoid of unrighteousness, perfectly clean and beautiful; such was earth before man entered into it.

Because the heart of man is deceitful above all things, if we were allowed into Heaven as we are, it would quickly become the second fallen creation of God; God let us ruin His first creation, He will not let us ruin the second.

Every lie that a man tells will bar the door to Heaven, for if lies were allowed into Heaven, it would not be Heaven. Every time someone steals something, whether it be tangible or not, God finds unrighteousness in them. When the sins of the heart; the sin of unrighteous anger, or of lust towards someone whom you never plan to have a committed relationship with, or of desiring the possessions of others until your heart aches; these sins show the terrible condition of the heart and put men on the broad path.

Despite the hopeless condition of man, Christ went to great lengths to rectify us to Heaven ANYWAYS. Christ became the propitiation for sin, died in the place of the sinner, despite Jesus having committed no sin, cleansed the sin from sinners, and then in Glory ascended from death to life and finally to Heaven, where He lives to this day.

Christ demands that we recognize His sacrifice for our sake, it is a gift free for our taking, but just as any gift, it must be received in order to belong to you. In order to receive the gift of Heaven so preciously earned by God, not by man, Repent of your Sins, think about every sin you can remember, confess it to God, beg His forgiveness, and Trust that His cleansing action is enough get you into Heaven.

Christ will create a new heart in you, one that despises sin and avoids it as best a man can; only then can your new heart, on the merits of Jesus Christ, see Heaven, for there is no other way.

Just as a parachute will save you from Gravity if you trust it, and put it on, so will Christ save you from Hell if you will trust Him and apply His death to your sins. If you aren't trusting the Bible as Gods words, you are in effect not trusting the instructions of the parachute. Are you sure you have the parachute on correctly? Do you know which handle to pull and at which time? Is that parachute really going to save you, or have you picked up an umbrella on accident?

Only the directions can let you know for sure.

Please think on this Bishop Spong, and apply it to the once glorious Episcopal Church.

Moore: "my experience is, most people that condemn Chrtianity base it on some experience real or perceived. they never took the time to open the bible and open their own minds and study it for themselves. as they tell everyone else to do. "

==============

This site will expand your experiences. I have read the bible and found it contradictory and ludicrous in places. If the Bible was really dictated by god to the scribes, translators, compilers and editors who put it together, you really have to wonder how smart this "omniscient" god really is.

Dear Mr. Spong:
I appreciated your story, because it is important to know that we all grow up with prejudices we learn from our families and friends. A really insightful person is able to make the transition from that way of thinking and not throw away ones religious beliefs at the same time.
Thank your for your sharing your experiences.

R.A.Moore:
Some people think Christianity is a horrible thing for good cause. You go immediately to it, the Bible. The Bible is a verified hoax. Anything can be proved with hoaxes that are the absolute word of God. So they mixed a little good stuff along with all the sex and violence. Dr Phil sticks to the good and eliminates the bad so he's a better choice than the Bible for those poor souls with problems.

The first five of the Thou Shalt Nots sacred to Christians like RA Moore are entirely religious in nature. They include keeping the sabbath day, not making idols, only worshiping one god, and not misusing the name of god. From a Jewish point of view, the carved image of Jesus on a cross is an idol and a big violation of one of the Thou Shalt Nots. Jews in the time of Jesus were willing to die over stuff like that, actually many did. Go read Josephus for details. If I want to have a beer on a Sunday instead of on a Saturday or a Friday, it seems to me that is my business. It is hard to see how these five commandments are essential to keeping order, or building a just society in the modern day. In fact, if you get really sick on a Sunday and have to go to an emergency room, you better thank your maker that there is someone there not keeping the sabbath.

The other five are universal. They are found in a host of religious and non-religious traditions. Some other religions said it better. There are as many adulterers among Christians as any other group.

As for Christians being persecuted, that is a large crock of a steaming substance obvious to anyone with eyes in his head. But go ahead with your martyr complex if it makes you feel heroic.

my experience is, most people that condemn Chrtianity base it on some experience real or perceived. they never took the time to open the bible and open their own minds and study it for themselves. as they tell everyone else to do.
they will find that a lot of flawed teachings like "babies going to hell" are completely false.

i didn't receive my calling from a church pew. i hadn't graced the interior of a church for almost a third of my life. my calling was a direct tap on the shoulder that led me not to muhammad or confusious or bhuddah. i was led by that tap to Jesus.

block out all your politically correct ideas and prejudices and sit down with a bible and you will find that the thou shalt nots are pretty good survival skills in a world full of hate on ALL sides.

It is my belief that religion cannot be taught but is found through one’s search for spiritual truth. I feel the intuitions of religion are more about money and political power play and that one should not be compelled to go to church because “everyone else does” or go to a particular church because it’s the one their family has attended for the past X generations. Religions today focus too much on blasting each other and using scare tactics to make their members obedient and cough up money. These things I say are from past experiences though out my life and from observing and listening to those around me who do attend church regularly. And it does not seem to matter what branch of Christianity one looks at, is the same garbage.

To Martin:
Christmas is not a christen holiday. Do a search for Christmas and you will find that Dec. 25th was a celebration for “pagans” and was ADOPTED by the Christians for Christ’s birthday. Even the Christmas tree is from pagan customs and is condemned by the Bible The Book of Jeremiah states: "For the customs of the peoples are false: a tree from the forest is cut down, and worked with an ax by the hands of an artisan people deck it with silver and gold they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move”

My religious formation from an innocent baby was in the Lutheran church in Utah. In additon to God is love and Jesus loves me, I learned that blacks, homosexuals, communists, Mexicans and Mormons were all evil and would go to hell as would my brother who died one day old. The gracious old bittys in the church told my mother that my brother went to hell because there wasn't time to baptize him. This has haunted her for the last 60 years. I never could reconcile a god of love and his son of love frying babies or any other children of god in hell. The church taught me hate and exclusion and the ever present intolerance of the Utah Mormons of others drove me away from organized denominations. However you find god or spirit is fine with me but if you want to pretend you follow the word don't be intolerant of other god's children, stop trying to jam your beliefs down my throat and stop threatening to make the USA a theocracy by changing the constituion and making new laws serving your extremist agenda. Thank you.

Allright, but you don't say whether you still accept or no longer accept the Bible as the literal world (sic) of God.

Also you don't say if it is still "oaky" for you call other religions pagan or to say people who believe in them are going to hell.

In fact, you don't disclose whether hell was another one of those prejudices or whether you were able to "rescue" the Bible from fundamentalism, whatever the notion of rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism may mean.

It sure sounds like you are a guy who is saying you recognized all the mumbo jumbo to be loony tunes time but are afraid to say it. If not, this is just another in the litany of drivel thrown out by The Post in the "On Faith" series.

I must say it providing daily comic relief, almost as much fun as some of the goofballs on the Postglobal stuff.

Sheesh, it's almost getting to the point where Krauthammer might be welcome reading since his drivel is at least more consistently predictable.

Martin, I suspect that you are confusing treatment of Christian dogma with treatment of Christians. A condemnation of the dogma does not amount to a condemnation of the people who follow it. In fact, I oppose condemning believers because that goes against the principle of freedom of conscience. With two or three exceptions, all the Christians I have ever known have been decent people. Despite my revulsion at much of Christian dogma, especially original sin and eternal damnation, I think I'm capable of respecting Christians as people.

Modern Christians are definately being persecuted for beleiving in something especially in God , in Jesus. Liberals , and atheist have condemn the modern Christian because of their horrible expierences they endured as children or the fact that they were raised this way and see only see it one sided. They see all Christians as biggots. Yet they celebrate Christmas without truly realizing it's a Christian holiday.

Maybe one day we will dissapear as a world religion as we are currently shrinking in today's modern world replacing it with modern and liberal thinking. There should be a balance of the modern world and our past, this is part of tradition that must continue , I think the two can some how live in harmony with each other. Or maybe generations from now they will only know the word "Christians" as a ancient people and that are now extinct. We will all wake up and realize it wasn't a bad religion after all.

To add on top of that, is this no better than Christians , Jew , Muslims judging each other.
So you might as well throw the atheist into the equation. The problems caused today with high tensions between The mostly Christian West and the Muslim world have spiraled out of control due to not just Christian-Muslim clashes yet also liberal ideals that the Muslims see as sinful in the World. We are all responsible for our actions and our beliefs be it Christian, Muslim, Judaism, and Liberal/ Atheist .

Bone:
Interesting. So you look back to Franklin et al, but that's as far as you look? I guess that works, but do you also examine the beliefs that formed their beliefs, the Enlightenment? And from there, I would think to gain a good grounding of Enlightenment beliefs, you have to start looking at the Renaissance and the rise of humanism as an ideology, and to understand that...shall I keep going? My only point is that I think we can learn from history and tradition that goes further back than 1776. Western tradition, for good or ill, is interlocked with Christianity, and ignoring that fact, not opinion, fact, is in my mind somewhat foolish. [Disclaimer: I am not saying that America was formed as a Christian nation, anything but.] Perhaps I am showing my cards as an historian, but I think to look to the future you have to look to the past, including the mistakes that have been made in order to learn from them.
Also, if Americanism is the only standard, how does one interact with other countries and citizens of the world, who do not hold the same views? Do we force them to adhere to our beliefs (democracy in Iraq is working pretty well)? Perhaps I am misreading your post.
(The same problem obviously occurs with Christianity, that Pat Robertson et. al, try to impose "Christian" beliefs on people who don't believe what they do.)

Harriet, you struck a nerve, one of the few I have left. It's the 21st century and a lot later than that since we started counting years well down stream from the real year 1. It's about time to give up the nonsense of the stone, brinze, iron and even Christian age of darkness. The hebrew, (woman) scriptures are so outdated it's not measurable, no stick that long. The common ground must be what we as Americans hold dearest, our constitution. Anything that goes against it must go and is not open for discussion or debate. The kingdom of God is at the top of that list.

Do I have faith? You betcha. I have the faith of Franklin, Jefferson, Madison and the spark plug of democracy John Adams. That's faith in the wisdom of the people. And I have faith in our journalist. It's them that fought the fight and won freedom of speach allowing me to say what I just said. It's time for a change. Yesterday is dead an gone and we must strive for a tomorrow that's bright and sunny.

Mr. Spong,

One advantage of atheism/agnosticism is that one does not need to rescue texts, one simply reads them as the product of people living a long time ago. It is not clear to me that one would want to emulate the gods described in Homer, the Hebrew bible, or much other Iron Age religious literature. Of course, for me that is in easy position, as I was not raised with any religion.

To the extent that you can help people get over some sense of guilt about this, you are doing a great service. I know you have done well at this and wish you the best.

Coming to terms with God in one's own life and in the life of one's community is an exciting journey but one fraught with diversions, disputations, and side trips.

It's important to realize that God in the Hebrew scriptures represents the nature of God encountered over thousands of years. To expect to understand easily, the spiritual experience of human beings of the iron age, the early bronze age, and the Hellanistic age is naive. After doing a fair amount of reading about the cultures represented in the stories, I found their stories more accessible and sympathetic . We need to continue to work to understand the cultures of spiritual stories of people in our own time. For me at least, it then becomes easier to love my neighbors, past and present.

John Spong:

I mostly had the same experience, and in North Carolina as well. The difference is that I never stopped questioning and never accepted anything on faith. So now I am an atheist.

When I was a boy, my family went to a Lutheran church for a while. One day after Sunday school, I came back to the regular service and found a guest preacher talking to a small group. The preacher was telling a first-person story about standing up for one's faith under persecution. The subject for the story was either Job or early Christians. He had a boy and a girl standing next to him, serving as his children. The preacher talked about how the persecutors put his son's eye out, and had the boy cover his eye with his hand. And then he said his persecutors cut out his daughter's tongue, and had the girl cover her mouth with her hand. I was thinking, "Is this what religion is about? Child mutilation?" The whole exercise seemed aimed at frightening people into being devout.

Years later, after I became a father, I reread the Sacrifice of Isaac story. The story frightened me and saddened me on a level that was inconceivable when I was Isaac's age reading the story. The idea of a Supreme Being authority figure requiring a father to sacrifice his son to prove loyalty sounded like a perverse mind game to me. There was no guarantee that God would have stepped in and ended the game. If I had been in Abraham's position, I might have been tempted to sacrifice myself to save my son.

The Bible can't be saved. It's a proved hoax.

The bishop knows what to do. We need a new book that is compatible with democracy. I'm betting he can write.

Rescue the bible from fundamentalism?

I'd say there's still work to be done on that one.