All Comments (80)

"JUST WAR' OR JUST WAR?"

“I still find a "Just War" approach valuable: defensive not offensive, proportional response, respect for-sanctity of civilians/non-combatants.

“While war may be necessary, it should be the absolute last resort. The irony with regard to the invasion and occupation of Iraq is that President Bush, who sees himself as a devout Christian, has waged a war that the majority of mainstream religious leaders have not supported and see as a violation of Just War doctrine."

ANS:
To the contrary, the Just War Theory was upheld.

Theodore Roosevelt:
“It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

We had been negotiating with Saddam for 10 years over some 17 UN Gulf War Resolution violations. The critics who claim there was a rush to judgment might take that into account.

Second, we had not just entered the Iraq War for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs). Saddam, with impunity, had consistently violated the Gulf War UN Resolutions he surrendered under after he was forced out of Taiwan. The UN appeared helpless and powerless to restrain him.

Third, Saddam was unequivocally violating the “Food for Oil” program, and in fact, high officials in the UN were in on it along with France, Germany, China, and Russia.

In addition, Saddam was starving his people and taking the money meant for the poor to supplement his lavish palatial desires and opulent extravagancies. Moreover, Saddam had built a $20 billion nuclear war chest to create WMDs.

Fourth, Saddam was firing on our planes in the neutral zones.

Fifth, Saddam was a threat to all his neighbors. He had already overrun Taiwan and had threatened to invade Saudi Arabia.

Sixth, Saddam was committing genocide on his own people. He and his thugs had murdered some 300,000 people in Iraq alone and probably maimed as many. Moreover, Saddam’s goons were raping mothers, and beheading the fathers in front of their families. The terrorists, who followed Saddam, once barbecued a 12-year-old son in front of the family, and made them eat him.

In addition, Saddam was promoting terrorism and paying the families of the bombers compensation for killing Israelis. Notwithstanding, Saddam was harboring terrorists training camps and he gave sanctuary to the notorious Abu Musab al-Zarqawi after he was wounded in Afghanistan and fled to Iraq.

Note that the Just War is not the providence of prelates and clergy, the ultimate and sole decision rest in the leaders of nations. Prelates counsel and advise; they don’t make the decisions. More so, they lack adequate insight into the situations.

Seven, Bush was joined by some 28 nations including England’s Prime Minister, Tony Blair; Japan’s Prime Minister, Junichirō Koizumi; Spain’s Prime Minister, Jose Maria Aznar; Sylvio Berlusconi, Premier Of Italy; Alexsander Kwanieswski, Poland’s Ruler, and John Howard, Australia’s leader.

In addition, the UN Security Council and the United States Senate approved the War. Russia, China, Germany, and France did not approve because they were part of the conspiracy of the Food for Oil program.

In the end, Saddam could have easily prevented the invasion by showing proof he had destroyed the WMDs the UN inspectors knew Saddam had when he expelled them under Clinton. He chose not to, and he chose wrong. It cost him his life.

Pilate condemned an innocent man, Christ, a fearful crime, in order to appease man and offend God. Taming Saddam was an obligatory mandate, a luminous white elephant in a room painted black, which no one wanted to take. We finally elected a leader who acted on principle, and wasn’t worried about his legacy or polls.

IN REPLY TO:
While religions have a transcendent and a dark side, the Just War doctrine is one example of religion's important even critical moral/ethical role, which blunts a testosterone approach to settling international disputes.

ANS:
It wasn’t just testosterone that was at stake here; it was Justice and Mercy for a people who lived under a tyrannical regime. It was to stabilize the Middle East, and prevent an international calamity in the world markets. It was far more important than Clinton’s justification for invading Slobodan Milosevic’s Yugoslavia, which has went unchallenged. Maybe, it was because Clinton was a Liberal Dem.

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oncerned The Christian Now Liberated says:

"It is important to review the latest reviews about the NT and its various passages. Being a "free willer", you don't have to accept the conclusions but at least you should evaluate what the contemporary NT exegetes are saying and why they are saying it."

Of course it's important. So glad you agree. Now put the shoe on the other foot and consider, why should you not extend the same courtesy to Muslims who take a similar, thoughtful approach to the Quran?

I'm pointing out to you that you are practicing a double standard here; insisting on a literal, worst possible case interpretation of the Quran on the one hand while rejecting (quite rightly) a similar approach to your Bible.

Do you see the point now?

Regards

A Hermit

To CRK: God is Love and He is a searcher of hearts and minds. Some people follow Jesus and don't believe who He really is and Some people don't follow Him and do believe who He really is what seems to be what God would smile on. To Anonymous: When Jesus called the self-rightous Pharisees of His day children of the devil and that God was not their Father, He was saying that their actions and words were not coming from God. Jesus also said to Simon, "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build My Church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it". The Church is Jesus's Church and He won the keys to death and hell, and God will use those keys in His time whether you like it or not. Jesus's also said to Peter, "Get behind Me satan", was He saying that Peter was satan or was He saying that satan was speaking through him. Maybe we should check out the beam in our own eyes before we look for the speck in our brother's eyes. Like I have already said so many people hate page one, "Let us make man in Our Image and God created man, male and female He created them". God created absolutely everything. As Jesus told us we are in the sixth day, night is coming, be ready. How much longer the sixth day is going to last, I do not know but the seventh day will get here in due time. In case anyone forgot Jesus said, "My Father has been busy even until now", and like it says earlier in the bible on the seventh day, God blest, rested and made holy. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Good Muslims? Will you not SPEAK against this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB0_QHuIOBU

Speed123,

Wow, such condemnations of a good Catholic guy who has simply read many books about the historical Jesus. I highly recommend the list posted at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

And who is your favorite orthodox, contemporary NT scholar?? I recommend Father Raymond Brown.

Address the issue here Thomas Baum, Jesus called the self righteous Pharisees "children of the devil." He also said that God was not their Father. So much for your contention that all people are God's children. Now for your "do not judge" quote, please remember the context of the passage. The Bible also exhorts Christians to use judgment and to expose the unfruitful deeds of darkness.

>>When Jesus said he who is without sin cast the first stone He did not say he who is with lesser sin or he whose sin has been forgiven cast the first stone. Jesus said a lot of things and so many people that think they are so much better than everybody else sure go out of their way to judge and condemn so many others.

May Allah (God) bless you for that Thomas Baum. What the above statement says is a lot and indeed though I may not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ (s) as a Muslim, I do believe in his everlasting, eternal message of love and compassion. I do believe he was sent as a blessed man born of a virgin birth to his people who believed only they and not the gentiles would find favor with God the Almighty.

Your sayings of Jesus (s) is in tune to what I hold him to be, love, and admire.

As for those like "anonymous" and "moderate from Turkey" there is nothing more annoying, desperate, and pathetic, than posting various news items and examples of crimes and then implying examples make a rule, i.e. Muslims and Islamics are bad (as I just heard the desperate Rudy Giuliani say to gain far right votes) and American gov't is good.

As anyone who is familiar with logic knows by the theory of induction that even if you have a gazillion examples of something, it only takes one negation (or negative example) to unravel your theory as false. So be wary of those who use various examples of crimes and INDUCE "BLACK PEOPLE ARE VIOLENT," or "ITALIANS ARE PRONE TO THE MAFIA," or "ALL TERRORISTS ARE MUSLIMS," not to say that even if THAT IS generally true what circumstances has led to that. As one British journalist put it, "If we had 80% unemployment in Britain as there is in Iraq, you can assure we'd be having riots here in Britain."

Thats the human condition and it transcends race, religion, and class.

Yes, Jesus referred to God as His Father and He also said to the apostles when they asked Him how to pray to pray to Our Father did He not? When Jesus said he who is without sin cast the first stone He did not say he who is with lesser sin or he whose sin has been forgiven cast the first stone. Jesus said a lot of things and so many people that think they are so much better than everybody else sure go out of their way to judge and condemn so many others. By the way if you are going to judge anyone judge yourself and you just might find that God is a Merciful God besides being a Being of Pure Love. Do you believe that Jesus asked us to be better than God when He asked us to forgive an infinite number of times, told us to love our enemies and to leave the judging to God. Jesus also at one point said that the ruler of this world is coming but be not afraid I have overcome the world. Why do we say that we believe that Jesus is God Incarnate and yet do not believe that God's Plan is much better than a lot of christians even want it to be. So many people that call themselves christians about all they seem to care about if you listen to them is for them to go to the "good place". I find it rather sad that they can be so much like the pharisees and scribes of Jesus's day and don't even see it in themselves. So many people go out of their way to try to shove religion down your throat when Jesus did nothing of the sort. We all have free will whether we like it or not and God does look at what you do and why you do it and also at what you know. Judge not lest ye be judged, forgive all, love your enemies, not many words but they say more than most people can even try to handle. One thing that the apostles got was when they said "You say some hard things", maybe us hardheads ought to think about it. Like I said before Jesus is God Incarnate, the Second Person of the Trinity of God but God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. Like Jesus said in those days people will be saying Lord, Lord but poor Jesus will have to vomit them out of His mouth saying I do not know you, sure seems to me that He is talking about people that acknowledge Him as who He is. It also says that in due time that God will declare Victory in favor of the Holy Ones. Please do not try to tell God what He can and cannot do, God is not a loser like so many people that call themselves christian think that He is, a tie is totally unacceptable because it is tatamount to a loss and the Victory of God is Total and Complete. I know that hell is real not many breathers probably do but it is not the monolithic place that you think that it is, in other words you build it yourself. There is also spiritual death and Jesus won the keys to both hell and death. Whether you like it or not being a christian is carrying on the work begun by Jesus, we are suppose to be the Body of Christ in the world and doing what God wants us to do. My job is simple, I am the New Testament Moses and it came as quite a shock to find that out. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Concerned...

Still blabbering about Crossan and his crap scholarship??

Are you sure that you were not a teaching assistant for Crossan, because that would explain a lot.

NT scholars, NT scholars, NT scholars......

These revisionists are out to sell books in the 20 billion dollar religious publishing industry and provocative material sells....a la Dan Brown.

You are not convincing anyone here, Concerned...and there is as much scholarship that supports the NT as there is against it.

So, are you Jewish or atheist?

Not that it matters...you are still an anti Muslim and anti Catholic bigot who relies on the lastest best-selling, atheist self-help manual to justify his hatred of traditional peoples.

Book of John,

Many contemporary NT scholars have doubts about the authencity of John's gospel i.e. many of the passages were not said by Jesus but were later embellishments made by "John and whomever to win converts.

e.g. ; 205-. Not Taste Death: (1) Gos. Thom. 1 & P. Oxy. 654. 1; (2) John 8:51-52.;

From Professor Crossan's book, The Historical Jesus,

Crossan analysis:
Item: 205
Stratum: II (60-80 CE)
Attestation: Double
Historicity: not authentic
Common Sayings Tradition: No

A Hermit,

It is important to review the latest reviews about the NT and its various passages. Being a "free willer", you don't have to accept the conclusions but at least you should evaluate what the contemporary NT exegetes are saying and why they are saying it.

The only good thing about the post above is that the word "Muslims" is not prefaced by politically correct terms like radical and extremists when speaking of Islam.

On April 18, five Muslims entered a Christian publishing company and killed three believers in the southeastern province of Malatya. Two of the victims were Turkish converts from Islam and the third man was a German citizen who had lived in Turkey for 10 years. News reports said four of the attackers admitted that the killings were motivated by both “nationalist and religious feelings.”

If you believe the verses above that I posted on this thread from the Bible (I copied and pasted it by the way) then you believe what Jesus said about Himself. He said that He was the Son of God. Notice he said "My Father” in that section of the Holy Scriptures.

Below Jesus is sharing with some of the unbelieving Jewish People that He existed before Abraham. (Most all of Jesus early followers were Jewish. Jesus was Jewish Himself so He is not saying that He dislikes the Jewish people here. His point is that simply being Jewish does not make one a true believer).

Before Abraham Was, I Am
48The Jews answered him, "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?" 49Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." 52The Jews said to him, "Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.' 53Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?" 54Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'[c] 55But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad." 57So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"[d] 58Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." 59So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Omar,

Are you saying that the Qur'an and the Bukhari Hadiths cannot be trusted? Is does not matter if they are online or not they are still the words of the Qur'an and the Bukhari

Oh, by the way CC, you still haven't actually commented on the topic of Esposito's post; do you think civilians are fair game in war, or not?

CC,

Are Christians held to a different set of rules? Your Bible says Jews are bad people who should be destroyed; it's right there in black and white. If we apply the same standard to you as you and your fellow bigot Frank Collins apply to the Muslims here we'd have to conclude that you either agree with Fred Phelps on all theological matters or you aren't a real Christian.

Why should we be any more interested in your exegesis of inconvenient Biblical passages than you are in our Muslim friends similar treatment of the Quran? Could it be it's not as simple as you've been insisting?!

Regards

A Hermit

With respect to 2 Thessalonians 14, 15, 16:

From Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul, p. 164, "This refers back to the deep contention in Jerusalem. Paul, Silas and Timothy are using the word "Jews" to mean the people back in Judea who wished to forbid us to speak to the Gentiles. But the same term could also be used during the first century and later of course to mean the practioners of Judaism generally and that is the sense of the term "Jew" in common usage. So the three companions, writing in Thessalonia and dealing with local issues, spoke in a way that has encouraged anti-Semitism. Had they known they were writing for something called the New Testament, and how their words would be used to justify the persecution of Jews, they obviously would have spoken differently."

There is also significant doubt that Paul even wrote 2 Thessalonians. From Father Raymond Brown's, An Introduction to the New Testament", p. 591, "Authenticity: Scholars are almost evenly divided on whether Paul wrote it, although the view that he did not seems to be gaining ground even among moderates."

CRK! Ahmed! Get back in your pigeonholes RIGHT NOW! The cognitive dissonance of meeting rational, respectful, peaceful Muslims who don't match his stereotype is liable to make poor Frank's head explode!

Seriously, though I may not share your faith I admire your patience.

Regards

A Hermit

>>so you think your islamic but you reject the koran? and other islamics dont think your islamic? guess what - YOUR NOT ISLAMIC.

Ok Frank this is just plain absurd now. You indeed act like jury, judge, and executioner. You first assume we are Muslims therefore must be violent and will condone death and destruction. Then when we don't say what you want to hear and talk in reasonable way, you condemn us for not being "Muslim enough?" If anything an overwhelming majority of Muslims are like us. If only you took the time and get to visit a mosque nearby, you'd understand we're not as terrifying as you're led to believe.

I'm a Muslim like Ahmed and we believe proudly in the holy Koran. However our interpretations aren't like yours or reductionist like militants who cloak themselves in violent verses to justify their alien behavior, whose "homemade fatwa" are not recognized by any serious Islamic scholarship.

I look at the holy Koran and not only have I read it, I try to LIVE IT and let be an inspiration to my life with its full spiritual benefit. Where reciting every letter of the Arabic script is a reward akin to a Jew reading the Talmud seeking similar benefits from God.

Book of John and Baum,

Both of you make good points. I agree with both of your posts almost in its entirety.

Thomas Baum,

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

To Apoliticallycorrect: Yes we are all God's children, if you would go to page one "Let Us make man in Our Image". So many people do not like page one. Even the Us alludes to something about God which we find out later is the Trinity. We are all God's children whether we know it or not, God made everybody including satan, the god wannabe. People would be better off if they threw away the whole bible rather than slicing and dicing the parts of it that they are uncomfortable with. You are not God, I am not God only a messenger yes the wrath of God is coming upon the whole planet and I look at the coming tribulation as the chastisement of God and who does God chastise, those He loves. By the way God is not a loving God but He is Love, a Being of Pure Love. God has a Plan and He came up with this Plan before He created anything or anybody. Like it says it is God's Will that all be saved. Just because a lot of people that call themselves christians and spew out all kinds of hatred in His Name does not mean that they know what they are talking about. When Jesus was dying on the cross He said "Father forgive them" so simple them is us, humanity. Sincerely Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

>>It is not a question of whether or not the quotes have been copied and pasted. The question is are the quotes true? I have not heard one reasoned response from you.

I must disagree. I believe Ahmed has more of a reasoned response than you give him credit for.

As for the verses some "cut and paste" and jam it down other peoples throats as if it were some sort of revelation, I basically say that's grossly unfair. The whole meaning of cut and paste is taking only the verses that you think imply violence against "infidels" and not the read the very verse before and after immediately saying generally, BUT forgiveness is better. And we are talking in the heat of WARS and BATTLES where the enemies of Islam wanted to kill and end Islam once it for all. So this "removing Islam from the face of the earth" is nothing new?

As for you "not holding my breath waiting for contradictions" PLEASE. As Ahmed says, even if you were given a reasoned response handed to you in silver platter you'd just spurn it and claim self-righteously as ever, "I'm right, you are wrong...and Hadith and Koran are basically evil and call for violence." I've seen this many times before. He can't change your mind anymore I can. As God says in his holy book, "you are a people who are given sight yet cannot see."

If you were really honest about learning and not so hopelessly anti-Islamic you'd give one example of positive hadith like feeding the poor, waging peace is better than war, not speaking ill of the dead, etc. etc. However to you, they are not worth "mentioning" unless something good might be said about Islam and Muslims.

And like I said, if you are really honest about learning about the violent verses you'd take your search from credible online Muslim sources and learn what Islamic scholars have to say about that, rather than having your mind made up as "evil, evil, EVIL."

pAZ

Anonymous;

Pauls expressed similar sentiments in Thessalonians:

"2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost."

Passages like that inspired centuries of Christian anti-semitism. Does that mean all Christians today are anti-semites? Should we assume the worst of all Christians, too?

More importantly, can you address the question of just war raised by Esposito above; (since Concerned Christian doesn't seem interested) do you believe war should be a last resort or not; should any military action be proportional to the provocation or not, should civilians be protected or not?

Regards

A Hermit

Ahmed From Bahrain,

It is not a question of whether or not the quotes have been copied and pasted. The question is are the quotes true? I have not heard one reasoned response from you. I do not believe you have really thought about what you believe. I think you believe because that is all you know. Do you love Jewish people? Do you love Christians who believe Jesus is the Son of God? Do you think the Jews have a right to exist in Israel? Do you believe the following quote from Bukhari who is highly respected in the Muslim world?

Hadith Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah’s Apostle said, “The (Final) Hour (last human battle on Earth) will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.”

What are all these Imams saying at the following link,

http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part6.html

Is what they are saying in conflict with the Haddith quoted above? Is what they are saying in conflict with the Qur'an? Can you please give us a reasoned response? I have been waiting for a reasoned response from you for days. I am glad I am not holding my breath waiting.

It is all about the "founders" of today's contemporary religions so again in review:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have basically put Abraham on the myth pile along with much of the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian/Jewish sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of the demons of the demented and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

>>As it is, I find it hard to convince fellow Muslims, so I don't need to argue with likes of you and Collins.

LoL. Ain't that the truth. If Muslims of today, would be half as great spiritually and intellectually of the Muslims of the past (invented Algebra, hospitals, heck the Arabic numerals of today) then maybe we wouldn't be hopelessly divided.

Being self-critical was a great part of our tradition and sadly I think we have lost it. I appreciate some of the comments by Collins Frankly (no pun intended) because it shows indeed the cesspool many Muslim countries have become. Indeed the idea of "tribal and nationalistic" brouhaha has been pathetic. We have to find our way back to God.

Indeed St. Augustine of Hippo who was the theologian of Just War learned much from his interaction with Muslims of his age, including the Sultan of Egypt. Go familiarize yourself with these and chew on that. There wasn't no "oil wealth" conspiracy back then as some would like to smear Dr. Esposito.

>>As it is, I find it hard to convince fellow Muslims, so I don't need to argue with likes of you and Collins.

LoL. Ain't that the truth. If Muslims of today, would be half as great spiritually and intellectually of the Muslims of the past (invented Algebra, hospitals, heck the Arabic numerals of today) then maybe we wouldn't be hopelessly divided.

Being self-critical was a great part of our tradition and sadly I think we have lost it. I appreciate some of the comments by Collins Frankly (no pun intended) because it shows indeed the cesspool many Muslim countries have become. Indeed the idea of "tribal and nationalistic" brouhaha has been pathetic. We have to find our way back to God.

Indeed St. Augustine of Hippo who was the theologian of Just War learned much from his interaction with Muslims of his age, including the Sultan of Egypt. Go familiarize yourself with these and chew on that. Yalla go!

Anonymous

By your question whether I am 'Islamic', you want to put me in a box and then brand me like a cow. Well, I refuse to be put in a box. I am free from ALL dogma. I have let my EGO perish. It is a choice I am proud of. By the way 'islamic' is not the rigfht way of putting your question: You should say: Are you a Muslim? That's the fault of your media. That's fine.

Once you boxed me in nicely as you are dying to do, then you rattle your quotes from Quran and Hadith, cut and paste as you normally do. You assume the mantle of the judge, the jury and the executioner. Salem's witch hunt.

Here is a challenge for you. Rise above yourself if you can. See if you too can free yourself from your EGO.

Of course Ahmed is Islamic, so am I, and never happier.

Indeed we are proud to be Muslims, the followers and descendants of Abraham (s). Even prouder to be followers of the nabi Muhammad (s), the final messenger and servant of God.

But let me just say brother Ahmed, I'm really proud of you. You're well reasoned comments and calmed response to "fear," "anger," "hatred" is just unbelievable and very enviable.

Indeed I wish I could learn more from you and not let anger get the best of me, but alas I am human. But I'm sure Frank would disagree and prefer to call us "scums" and "animals" LOL!

YES you won't change Frank Collins or his other pseudoname "Concerned Christian" mind...but you are not there to change their blind, "I'm always correct, Islam is evil" mind.

As Allah told his Prophet, your job is to preach the message and it is US who send the gift of guidance to those whom we choose. I hear you and so do the rest of us Americans who love what you have to say and esp. the eloquent, reassuring, and claming way you say it.

Salaams (peace)!

Cerik

Isn't anybody here familiar with the theory of just war? It's a set of standards, not a particular war.

You know, there are certain beliefs and worldviews that annoy or frighten me. I've learned that I can deal with my annoyance and fear better by listening to their proponents, instead of practicing the online equivalent of putting my fingers in my ears and screaming.

Ahmed has made some good points and you may not agree with him but you don't have to behave like babies or thugs.

Anonymous

Am I Islamic? Not by your definition. As it is, I find it hard to convince fellow Muslims, so I don't need to argue with likes of you and Collins.

I can only see goodness in people and leave those who can't understand to themselves and pray that some day they too see goodness in everyone. God's signs are everywhere. It is for those who have the sight to see those signs. This sight is a choice everyone can make. Most choose not to. it is not my fault and please stopblaming me for the ills of my fellow country folk. Believe me majority of us are peaceful people but then I can not convince you and have no need to. You make such choices not me. I am only responsible for myself not even for my children.

I choose to side with goodness and therefore i do not see anything else. Just like a person who moves from darkness into light. He too no longer sees darkness. How can he?

Is that logic enough for you?

Shamolm freedom.

You have a short memory. Remember 'Shock and Awe'. Raining down bombs on a people to bring them democracy is a funny way of being nice to them. Besides Saddam was the Frankenstein made in US labs. Who sold him all the WMD? Believe me it was not another Muslim country. The intentions of those in this US admin was made very clear before 911. Google for PNAC and New American Century. Notice the signatories.

The Americans were not invited into Iraq. they came as invadors, so you should expect the resistence and killing just as you would do to anyone who invades your country. Heavens!! Look at what your troops are doing becuase of 911 and now you expect Iraqis to welcome your bombs. Please try to at least judge others by your own standards. Talk about being brain-washed. Besides there are many US reports that warned of this result but your president cheered by Israel sacrificed life and billions of your tax-dollars for his aim. Just as Cheney is barking again at Iran with Israel pushing to bomb Iran. Is there no end to your thirst for revenge?

Frank Collins is quick to bring ancient history to justify what he is doing now. Can't you use some initiative and bring life where mayhem exists? Or dwelling on who did what is your favourite pass time. You seem to paint yourself so righteously. Does Native Americans mean anything to you? How about Aboriginis? How many Arab soldiers went across Asia to invade China and bring Islam into Indonesia and Malaysia? The then polulation and technology of Arabia in no way could support such invasion. Think and read. Truly even if I discussed this with any logic with you, your would never let go of what you have set for yourself to vehmently believe. For every version of a historical event, there is another version and sometimes more than one. The older the history, the more unreliable. Now you want to base future world relationships on ancient history as you see it. Even if they were true, I am saying today there is a different energy. People of the world are fed up with wars, deceit, corporate greed and hatred. Can you find it in yourslef to join them or at least stop collectively punishing them?

Sometimes I feel I am talking to 10 year olds except they seem to have a better logic! Peace man.

Krusso

I love every body. I do not distinguish between people, faith or religion wise. I try to see purity all around me because I know that God is ALL-Present.

I do not believe in good or bad, nor in evil since I have aligned myself with the Pure Love that God is. I interpret ALL religions in that light. It is people who divide and rule. It is people who create mischieve. It is people who interpret dogma and twist revelations for their own ends.

I try to steer away from trying to prove who is right and who is wrong as it does not serve any purpose. You either believe or do not believe. The rest is game paly. If and when a person is ready to see true faith in their own heart, they are ready then to elevate themselves to the next level of spirituality. Before then we are trapped into history and who said what, etc. It serves no one. Accept each other unconditionally. Love one another unconditionally and move on. History is full of inumanity, inflicted by some who profess faith in some deity or another. I can not be held responsible for their actions just as we do not hold young Germans for what Hitler did, otherwise there would be endless wars. Someone must break that cycle and I present you and others this option.

May be what I say in ahead of most people's reality but I know many who believe as I do. All I see is the gooness in their hearts NOW and that is enough for me. In fact I would give my life on a plate for any such pure heart because I know what Eternity means.

This physical existance is only a part of a bigger spiritual journey that every soul must go through. Sadly most Muslims, Jews and Christians are stuck with old ways of understanding their books/teachers yet I believe many Christians try hard to exercise love for everyone and they are to be commended for their faith.

No one has monopoly on God. He works in mysterious ways, meaning above our intellict.

I love ALL because I see the potential in everyone.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated, you rant all the time; in every thread here you drone on and on about the evil Muslims and their evil book and how they're all evil and disgusting and violent and untrustworthy. You won't acknowledge that the extremists might not represent all Muslims, nor that Christians and others have their extremists too. Any Muslim who posts here is attacked by you as if they are guilty, even when they repudiate the extremists and answer you thoughtfully and reasonably.

You are every bit as ignorant and bigoted towards Muslims as our Nazi sympathizing visitor is towards the Jews, and your ignorance and bigotry is just as inexcusable. Like him you have found your scapegoat, a convenient target for all your irrational fears and anger, and boy do you enjoy letting them have it, whether the individual you are addressing deserves it or not. It's so nice to have a whipping boy isn't it? Means you don't have to actually think about the issues or learn about the world. You're worse than ignorant, for ignorance can be cured by seeking knowledge, you are willfully ignorant, you revel in your ignorance, you wear ignorance like a crown. I hope it gives you comfort.

As for my belief, I believe in our common Humanity; that for all our flaws and shortcomings we are all in this life together, and we need to reach out and learn to understand one another if we want to live in a peaceful world. I also believe that this is what most people, regardless of their culture or religion, really want. Embracing fear and ignorance, as you do, only makes things worse. But I still have hope for you, unlike our Nazi interloper, whom I won't even bother with. At least you're here talking to people, and sometimes you engage in something like a rational discussion. You have choice to make, I think; you can try to learn something from the others here or you can head down the same road as Oliver Reihnmann and become a pathetic, ranting bigot muttering to himself about "the enemy" and failing to contribute anything of value to any conversation.

So, how about addressing John Esposito's post, instead of attacking the man; do you believe war should be a last resort, or not? Should it be proportional to the provocation, or not? Should civilians be respected and protected, or are they fair game as long as they're Muslims?

Regards

A Hermit

Antijihad

By quoting Genesis you assume that all Jews are decendants of Abraham and that Araham was a Jew. This is your Scoffield teaching in the margins.

Abraham predates all Judaism, Chrisitans and Mulsims. There were no such people called Jews in Abraham's time, yet all these 3 faiths believe in Abraham as their patriarch.

You already know Abraham had two sons, Ismael first and then Isaac and from Isaac came Jacob and from him came the 12 tribes. The Covenant God is clear that such a contract was only with those who follow the will of God. As for those who disobeyed theirs was fire and brimstone. God paints a more horrific fate in OT. The Quran in a less horrific way repeats this contract thro Abraham which is only reserved for those decendants who obey God.

Some may feel this is all wishy-washy stuff and thats fine but ponder this. You make a contract with a group of people based on them fulfilling certain conditions. When they deviate from those conditions then the contract is invalid. Besides there are million Jewish converts with no blood connection to Abraham. How is this contract (Covenant) applies to them. I heard one such recent American convert last Sunday in the radio calling himself Israel Campbell. There are also many European Kazars who converted to Judaism. In today's world there is no favouritism. No one tribe having monopoly on God. It is a crazy notion made by man to serve his own ends. The only meaningfull way is through our own actions, where we serve others or serve ourselves.

Your belief has created this whole problem in the Middle East: That Jews can not put a foot wrong and that Palestinians can not put a foot right. Yet we know that human beings are capable of both and that birth-rights does not give anyone immunity. Hence Christ came for the Jews to instill in them the doctorine of Love and Forgiveness and water down their brute laws of 'an eye for an eye' which had hardened their hearts. Christ said he did not come to change all those laws but to give it another meaning. That is what we should all do, I mean Jews, Christians and Muslims. re-interpret those doctrines to futher peace and support life and dignity of mankind as a whole. Be all embracing and not exclusive.

The problem with all these religions that they take themselves too seriously and want to dwell on stuff that took place thousands of years ago. In a way it is true that history repeats itself but only if we keep recalling history and attaching it to God in the form of extreme. God is an ever-changing force. Yet a froce that changes but never change Itself.

For me God is an energy of PURE Unconditional Love. This love is communicated thro the heart of wo/man. History is given to us so as we may not repeat the same errors. The litmus test is "If your actions promote this Pure Unconditional Love then keep at it and if it serves any other purpose then abandon it." If we ALL did this then we would be living in paradise on earth and that was what Christ meant by saying The Kingdom of Heaven is on earth. We have the potential to be God-like but only if we abandon our own ego and serve others, especially those who do not agree with us. Again Christ said that about loving your enemies.

Peace be upon ALL Creation.

A Hermit,

We don't rant about Islamics. Their book of death rants for them. We just point out the death wishes and the significantly stupid foundations of said book that teaches death to all unbelievers. A Hermit, where does your belief belong? Belief in a resurrected Hitler? Or in a resurrected Mohammed and his hallucinations of the demons of the demented?

NEVER AGAIN?

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ahmed from bahrain,

Do you love Jewish people? Do you love Christians who believe Jesus is the Son of God?

I never heard Frank say he was a Christian Ahmed.

Ahmed from Bahrain,

You answer tells me that you have not really thought about what you believe but have blindly accepted Islam.

I guess you do not know that your prophet said that Islam would rule the world. I have seen Muslims chanting in the streets of London that Islam is going to rule the world. I have to tell you that I do not believe what you are saying because I know that lying (taqiyya) is encouraged in the Koran to gain an advantage on the unbelievers.

"The Prophet said: ‘I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'" (Muslim:C9B1N33).

Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda said, 'We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, 'The Tuqyah [or taqiyya, the shielding of what is in one's heart] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.'"

Anonymous

You want me to say 'yes' or 'no' to a question you feel so strongly about: Your question is:
"Do you believe Islam will rule the world?"

My answer, I don't care. But I know your question comes from your own fear. I have not met one Muslim in my entire life (57 years) who want to rule the world! I am more concerned of ruling/controlling myself, not any other person, let alone the whole world. Are you crazy? How can a bunch of illiterate foolish tribal men from caves of Afghanistan control the world? You Americans love inventing enemies for yoyrselves. Is is your cowboy mentality and what will a cowboy be without an Indian? Since you have relegated the Natives to concentration camps you call fondly call reservations and numbed their senses with gambling dollars, now you are looking for enemies in other pastures. Reds are dead, Yellow is sleep but gave you a bloody nose in Vietnam, Kadafi is kinafi, Khumeini is dead but Iran will be another reality, Saddam Hussein was damn insane, WMD was a fantom. OBL is the man and Falluja is where Satan resides, and now 1.3 Muslims represent an endless supply of New Indians for your cowboy mentality.

Come down of your damn stubborn mule and smell the roses. We are all human beings with the same hopes and aspirations. There is no need for a million soldiers and billion dollar camps in the Middle east. Remember you were there long before 911 unless offcourse you were sleeping through the last 50 years. Please read your own history of interference in The Middle East. 911 was the result of this brutal interference and your undying support for Israel despite the inhumanity your tax dollars caused the collective people of Palestine - aka end of times Christian view of Middle East and helping God to hasten Armegeddon. It has nothing to do with Quran as you and Frank Collins love to quote. It is pure human re-action to continual insult and robbing of their God given rights.

Here is a tip. Come in peace and people will receive you in peace. Come with WMD and people will seek every mode to fight you. Natural human animalistic instinct right in front of your eyes. Yet you are blind with your own righteousness and believe only you have the right to bulldoze whole countries coz of 911 but where were you when your subsequent governments in the last 70 years was creating mischieve in so many lands.

Here is another tip a Prince of Peace: Do unto others what you wish them do unto you.

The war in Iraq was just in that it removed from power a cruel murderous dictator, Saddam Hussein who was a threat to his neighbors.
The United States had the good intention of establishing a democratic regime in Iraq, of doing the kind of reconstruction it did in Germany and Japan after the Second World War.
Unfortunately the Iraqi people are divided against themselves. And the Sunni/ Shiite division seems unbreachable.
Both of these branches of Islam in Iraq seem implacably hostile to Western values, and to the United States. Thus the United States has found itself in an impossible position trying to locate true friends, and shore them up. But both of these sides( Let us leave the Kurds aside for a moment) seem unready to truly cooperate with the United States.
The just war has thus become a difficult, and perhaps impossible war.
And yet it might well be disastrous for the U.S. to withdraw its forces. And this because the Iranians nearby, and other radical Islamic forces are preparing to topple the U.S. allies in the Gulf.

Frank Collins and Anonymous

All you do here is repeat your vile insults. I thought this was a faith dialogue not a filth dialogue reserved for KKK types who profess faith in Christ but utterly fail to follow Him.

Your hatred has blinded you. All I can do is pray that you will find peace within yourself and I know a person of peace never speaks ill of another. That is the definition of peace. To be. Not to insult, denounce and accuse any person who extends his hand in peace to you. Can you not see that you propogate hate through your own hate? You attract to yourselves that which you are.

All your arguments do not deserve my response since your minds are made up and no amount of reason will remove the log in your eyes. Reason works with people who value reason.

I know who I am and I do not care what others do and you can not paint everyone with the same tar brush just because they profess the same religion or come from the same race and have the same names. That would be racist. Your hollier than thouh attitude also makes you hypocrates.

as soon as religion becomes institutionalized, it
becomes just one more power trip....regardless
of the so-called objective contents/dogma.

god is not an istitution, and access to that higher reality
should not depend on a set of social conventions!

Whether you think of Jesus as the son of God (as Christians do) or you think of him as a prophet (as Muslims do)... his message regarding war is quite clear: “Blessed are the peace-makers”, and “love your enemy”.

He did no