All Comments (235)

Freedom of religion is a basic right. No man can force another into God's kingdom. Freedom for women is also a right. Every person is responsible for his soul . Religious police violate the rights of people. Why do you want to put your eternal life at risk. Prisoners should be given their rights .

There is so much hate on this board. It seems to me that people like Pablo, Frank Collins

I think it all boils down to education. If you ask a non-Muslim who hates Muslims about Islam, you may get a distorted view. Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of distorted views here. Is Islam violent? What does that mean? The religion iteslf teaches peace and tolerance. How do I know? I've been Muslim for over 23 years and not once was I ever taught to cut a non-believers head off or whatever other foolishness is being spread here. If a certain group of Christians decides to dress up in white hoods, ride around burning crosses, TERRORIZING, and lynching people, do we say ALL CHRISTIANS ARE TERRORISTS? Or if some lunatic plants a bomb in Oklahoma City. The point is you can't condemn a whole people for the acts of some.

Is Islam violent? Absolutely not! The world is violent. Islam just happens to exist in the world. The truth is war is inevitable. Point out a 10 year point in world history where there was no war. You can't. Not in all this time has that happened. So since war is inevitable, isn't it better to have some moral principles about how to go to war?

Yes, there were wars during the time of Muhammad, but to say Islam "spread by the sword" is disgustingly incorrect. THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN ISLAM. And how can there be? How can you force someone to believe something? The very root of the idea makes no sense.

Here's a brief history lesson for you on the life of Muhammad for those who would like to be informed and not mis-informed. He was born in Arabia 1400 years ago. Both his parents died while he was in infancy and he was raised by his grandfather and uncles. He lived in a time known as "The Ignorance." The people around him worshipped idols and burried their daughters alive out of shame. Muhammad was a noble man, well respected and extremely trustworthy, far before ever receiving any type of revalation. He would retreat to a secluded cave to meditate. It was there where he received revalation at age 40. He asked the people, "If I told you there was a large army on the other side of that mountain waiting to attack us, would you believe me?" They all said yes, as I stated before Muhammad was the most trusted person in all of Mecca. Then he asked them, "What if I told you I am a prophet of God? Would you believe me then?" Naturally they rejected his claim.

But as time grew, so did Muhammad's following. Islam grew to the point that it became a problem. The Kabaa was home to over 360 idols at the time. Every year, people would come from all over Arabia to perform various sacrifices, etc. This was BIG business for the Meccans. So you can see why Muhammad's claim that there is only one GOd was be so problematic. It got to the point where Muslims were being attacked (much like today). People spoke badly about the religion even though they were ignorant to its most basic principles. Eventually, many Muslims were forced to leave Mecca.

Now here's where it gets interesting. For anyone (even Muslims) who claims Muslims hate all Christians and Jews: Muhammad sent his companions to Abyssinia (present day Ethiopia), one of the oldest Christian nations. He sent them there because he said they had a RIGHTEOUS KING and that know man would be wronged in his land. The Meccans persued them but the King refused to let the Muslims be taken by them after he learned of their religion. He said that what Jesus taught and what Muhammad teaches are like TWO RAYS FROM THE SAME LAMP.

Not to get sidetracked but this is the relationship between Muslims and Christians. The Qur'an says "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve." -2:62

Back to the history lesson. Muhammad was next banished from Mecca. It seemed all the Muslims had been wiped out and Islam had failed. But then, everything changed. The neighboring city of Medina took Muhammad in and excepted his message. They were fortold that Muhamma was indeed the messenger of God by THE JEWS IN THEIR CITY!

"Those to whom We have given the Book know him (the Messenger) just like they know their own sons" Qur'an, 6:20

And then came the wars. To "spread the faith?" NO! How about self defense. The Meccans raided and stole everything of value from the Muslims that was left in Mecca. It was only after this, and after receiving revalation (they would not fight until Muhammad was given instruction to do so), that they fought. They had strict rules though. You may not kill women, children, non-combatants, the elderly. They weren't even allowed to cut down trees. So yes the Qur'an talks about fighting, but every verse that talks about fighting is followed by something like "it's better to forgive or show mercy."

An example of this is after the second war in Islam, the battle of Uhud, one of Muhammad's companions, and uncle Hamza was killed and his body was grusomely mutilatated. When the Angel Gabriel asked Muhammad if he wanted the angels to crush these people, Muhammad declined, perchance they become Muslim. So there was no barbaric spilling of blood. That is 100% FALSE! In fact, when the Muslims finally returned to Mecca during their final conquest, their was NO BLOOD SHED! They literally walked through the city gates and the city was handed to them.

What else, the taxes, etc. Well doesn't that make sense? I live in America (along with about 10 million other Muslims, by the way). As a result I pay taxes, don't you? And don't we all have to follow the laws of the land. THat's basically what happened. Non-Muslims paid a tax (Muslims pay a tax too, it just goes to the poor), and had to adhere to the laws of the land.

Muhammad never claimed to bring a new world religion. He simply brought the next step. Look at your own life. Did you start out just the way you are? Or was it a process "Was he not a drop of sperm emitted?" Qur'an 75:37.

So religion came down in phases as well. Muhammad taught nothing but what EVERY OTHER PROPHET TAUGHT. The same message as Adam, Noah, Solomon, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the list goes on. THey all taught the same thing! THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!!!!

Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, the first commandment is hear, oh Israel, the Lord OUR God, is One Lord."

So it seems to me that the biggest problem with Islam is that it is for Human Beings. Human Beings are the problem. Imagine if Timothy McVeigh was Muslim. Would that make it any worse of an act of terrorism? Of course not. The only hate going on here is by the non-Muslims.

So why are Muslims chastised? Yes there are some bad apples who do horrific things "in the name of Islam" but there are people from every group who do things that don't necessarily reflect the beliefs of the whole group. Are ALL Germans Nazis? Are ALL white anglo-saxon protestants in the KKK? I mean is the whole Atlanta Falcon football team just a big front for a scandalous Dog-fighting ring??? The best thing for each and every one of us is to educate ourselves. Ask God for guidance and He will guide you. Religion is nothing but a vehicle to spirituality. We all need to do whatever it is we need to do to draw closer to God. Religion is a set of rules that, if followed, can put us in God's favor. Tolerance is one of those laws. Out of the 7 BILLION MUSLIMS in the world, what percentage of them are "terrorists?" And what is called Islamic terrorism is more POLITICAL WARFARE than anything. After all, its America who has troops in Iraq and so many other places right now, not the other way around.

*One more point to make. Muslims and Christians do worship the same God. He is called Allah by Muslims as that is the Arabic word for God (illah means god, Al-illah, or Allah means "the (definitive) God"). The christians in the Middle East call God "Allah" because they speak Arabic. Just like in Spain they say Dios, not God. Thank you all for reading my post and I pray that you took something meaningful from it. God bless.

As Salaamu Alaikum (Peace be unto you)

well, it seems this post is pretty dead, and its a shame to leave it at such an ugly note-

i do hope people look at that link-

i dont want to hog the blog, as its rather lengthy

Islam denounces violence. Is that why your prophet killed and rape across Arabia?

http://www.islamic-study.org/Islam%20Denounces%20Violence.htm

if you anonymous haters think you are going to drive away the reasonable with your nonsense anecdotes, you have another thing coming-

Norwegian-Somalian Kadra, who became famous in Norway for exposing imam support of female circumcision, was beaten unconscious on Thursday.
Kadra was attacked and beaten senseless by seven or eight persons of Somali origin, newspaper VG reports.
"I was terrified. While I lay on the pavement they kicked me and screamed that I had trampled on the Koran. Several shouted Allah-o-akbar (God is great) and also recited from the Koran," Kadra told VG.
Kadra linked the attack to recent remarks in VG where she said that the Koran's views on women needed to be reinterpreted.
Kadra said that the gang of Somali men attacked her around 3 a.m. in downtown Oslo on Thursday. A medical examination found that she had several broken ribs, NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting) reports. Kadra filed charges and was due to speak with police on Friday.
The Islamic Council Norway (IRN) condemned the attack on Kadra and urged that she pursue the matter with police.
"Behavior where one goes to physical attack on someone you disagree with violates Islamic teaching and the prophet Muhammad's sunnah (lifestyle). We strongly object to such behavior," the IRN said in a press release.
Kadra's role in a 2000 hidden camera TV documentary revealing the positive attitude of Muslim leaders to female circumcision had a massive impact on Norway, and sparked new legislation.

As the French people went to the polls to select a president, jihadi members of an al-Qaeda online forum exchanged messages discussing their aspiration to "reinvade France (and convert it into) an Islamic country." The internet discussion appeared as Spanish security forces warned that both Spain and France were targets of al-Qaeda terror plots.

A post that appeared on the al-Firdaws jihadi forum, submitted by a user named Faisal al-Baghdadi, contained a lengthy historical account of "the second stop of the Islamic conquest of Europe, France, after Andalusia, Spain."
The post took a nostalgic look at the battle of Tours in 732, in which Muslim forces, commanded by Rahman al-Ghafiqi, who invaded a portion of France, were repelled by the Frankish general Charles Martel ("the hammer"), and forced to retreat. The battle stemmed the medieval Islamic conquest of Europe.

"The Islamic army was left with a large number of martyrs, especially the great shahid (martyr) Abdul Rahman a-Ghafiqi… this battle is mentioned in history, and is known at the battle of Tours," the post explained.

"We ask that Allah sends us a genuine Rahman al-Ghafiqi, to finish what he started in Europe, and conquer the Vatican as promised in our beautiful Islamic verses," the post concluded.

"Allah bless the writer and carrier of the message which recalls the days of glory and honor of Islam," another user responded.

Continuation of the cleansing of the Koran.

"6. To believe that Allah Most High has knowledge of everything from before-hand and that only that which He sanctions or wishes will occur."

This is invalidated by the natural/inherent/God-given gifts/attributes of the human race i.e. Free Will and Future.

As per the theologian Edward Schillebeeckx,
Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

We must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman
doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God/Allah the great scapegoat of history.”

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human
activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the
historical future is not known even to God/Allah; otherwise we
and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

"7. To believe that Resurrection will definitely occur."

The spiritual resurrection occurs at each death. There will be no physical resurrection from common sense considerations i.e. Heaven is a spirit state i.e. no bodies to include those of Jesus, Mary, Moses etc. can reside there.

"8. To believe in the existence of Heaven."

Acceptable but it exists only as a spirit state.

"9. To believe in the existence of Hell."

Maybe, maybe not. Some say if one dies is significant sin, that person’s soul will simply no longer exist since God/Allah does not tolerate imperfection in the Kingdom.

"10. To have love for Allah Most High."

Of course, just like there is love of all creatures, spiritual and living. Again there has to be an all-inclusive statement for Allah, i..e. aka God, Yahweh, Mother Nature, Jehovah, etc.

Victoria,

Regarding your post above, I do know what you mean about generosity when I consider my own experience.

Had it not been for the friends I made, I would have spent some very sad Christmases alone and far from home.

The Peruvians and Columbians, in particular, celebrated on Christmas Eve (Noche Buena).

There was this liquor called Aguar De Diente, and I got indirectly "dared" (sucked into the overwhelming machismo of the party) to keep up. They knew I wouldn't be able to because this stuff was like rocket fuel! The women were trying to warn me and the men were passing it around...relentlessly.

The next morning the men all got up and were eating, and I felt like I'd been struck by lightning. But they fed me, had me help them with a pinata for the children and fully included me...right down to teasing me about my hangover.

I love those people!

Ask away Ghostbuster. I come here for conversation.

Thanks Norrie, Russell, Victoria, for the support.

One of the other points I wanted to make was that, no matter how miserable I was during the four years I spent in Orlando, I learned SO MUCH I would never have know otherwise. I now know fully what it means to broaden one's horizons. There is value in learning ANYTHING, whether you know the value at the time or not!

It took me a while to figure out how these people could seem so satisfied with what seemed so little to me. Then when I got to know them, I realized that what I saw as a little, was more than they had ever had before. Talk about shaking up a person's perspective!

Interesting insights Danny B. The only post I've read on these boards so far today.

I won't ask you a bunch of questions you have probably already answered in previous posts.

Thanks for sharing.

Danny B. has figured it out.

Learn from experience. Learn from people. Go out and see the world, enjoy life, and learn who you are through others. For most of the posters here, I'd recommend you get out of your holes and walk more than a few miles from your state and or country. You might learn more.

Danny B.,

One of the things I admire about you is how open you are to life and people and experience.

If you do leave these threads, they'll be the poorer for your absence.

here is what i came to post-

i would like to make note that i just finished my afternoon prayer- so that is my state of mind in this composition-

also this happens 5 times a day, so at least 5 times a day i have this reasonable attitude(however i am inclined to believe the reason overlaps from prayer to prayer)

Muslims comprise the most diverse population of any grouping on the planet, yet people still persist in believing fox news perceptions-

id say the proof is in the pudding-

witness the very apparent examples on these boards-

where do you see angry and abusive muslims here?

do you see muslims name calling and castigating others?
acting impolitely, judging others, slandering others?

id say there is a disproportionate amount of reasonable response to overt aggression here-

and yet it doesnt strike anyone as indicative of islamic manners and behavior?

while i see a preponderance of verbal violence against muslims-

is this verbal violence and abuse answered back in reciprocal manner?

there are even those who mislead others by using arabic names, and then propagating outright hatred and vitriol-

has anyone seen a corollary malice in return?

or even anger?

if islam is filled with out of control emotional and anger filled adherents, why dont we see any evidence of it here?

people respond with outright irrational emotions controlling their every word- but the muslims remain reasoned.

it is a phenomenon that certainly deserves mention and attention.

peace all

even though im just a muslim, i lived and worked for 2 years with migrant farmworkers in northern california-
i lived in the same shanties- (one year in a tent outside) and worked the same 14 hour shifts in the 115 degree factory line ( i actually saw women fainting and falling on a regular basis)

my suitcase that i brought with me contained nothing but books-art books and classics-
and i spent all my off time teaching native americans and mexicans english (the education of the native american average was second grade)

there are many associated tales- but ll tell one-
there was almost a riot once in church when i suggested that jesus was jewish-
and when i finally left to go to canda, they took me to their church and re-outfitted me in the nicest clothing for the cold-

i lived in chicago and taught english as a second language to mexicans (whose neighborhood i lived in) and iraqis.

you really embody the literal meaning of catholic(which means universal)

i have found this universalism in islam.

peace

Danny B. :

You are very good man, don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

I came today to cancel my account, but there seems to be no clear way to do that.

Norrie,

Thanks for the kind words! Whether we agree or disagree, I always respect your contribution. I would be a liar if I allowed my frustration with extremist posters to let me forget that I have, in fact, learned many things in these forums.

To no one in particular,

Just something to share that may seem off-topic, but in regard to some of the attitudes I encouter here, it really is on the subject of these threads.

I agreed to transfer to Orlando, FL with my company, and agreed to an 18 month to two year commitment before I would be allowed to transfer back. Of course, the one catch is that they can keep you longer "based on business needs". I was there for four years total.

By the end of the first year I was miserable. I hated the position, I hated the city, I hated being so far from home (I am from Detroit).

I wanted to be ready to transfer back at a moment's notice. I looked for an a apartment with a month-to-month lease. This is nearly imopssible in Orlando. Being such a transient city, landlords want at least a six-month assurance that you will stay. I finally found a month-to-month rental in this God-awful building near downtown. It just brought my already bad depressive state even lower.

The majority of the neighbors were immigrants from South and Central America, Mexico, Cuba, etc..

As time went on, I began to learn Spanish from them. A lot of Spanish! I am now nearly fluent (or at least proficient enough to be fully conversational, watch Spanish TV and movies, etc..).

I knew that some of them were here illegally, though they never directly said so. Well, one was very direct about it, but was going back already when he said so.

These people were some of the most neighborly people I have ever met. They were hard working (yes, all of them worked! Even when the wife stayed home, she baby-sat, took in laundry, sold Jafra).

I earned enough to live in three (literally) of those apartments, which they did not know, but they were always bringing me food because I was man who lived alone. These people had so little, risked everything to be here and worried that I couldn't feed myself because I was single. I was floored.

One neighbor used to come in the evenings, after working 12 hours in a restaurant kitchen at 5.00 an hour (less than minimum wage, mind you), and ask if I would take him to the store for a bottle of tequila. He would send all the money he earned home to his family, but his one indulgence for himself was a bottle of Curevo. Then he would want to share it with me and refuse to let me either pay for it myself or even pitch in. He would tell me that my company was enough.

I tried to teach them English, and they all wanted to learn. The unfortunate thing for the wives was that the men all went to work with the car, and the wives were stuck at home with the children and no transportation. Everybody wanted to learn English, understood it was crucial for earning more money, but how does one do it while stuck at home and little opportunity to practice? I could not personally conduct the immersion classes, of course, which is how I ended up learning the Spanish.

My whole point here is this:

I follow the news, I know what the attitudes in this country are toward immigrants in general, and illegal one in particular. But I also KNOW THE IMMIGRANTS...very well, and many of them. When I compare what I know and have observed with what I read and see on TV, the discrepancies between the two, the ignorance displayed by our leaders and fellow citizens just astounds me!

So, when I am in these threads, though I am no expert on the subject of Islam, I recognize blatant ignorance when it is in front of me. I know for a fact that he who shouts the loudest against something either knows nothing, or is attempting to hide their hypocracy. I will not remove the humanity from others to make it easier for me to condemn them. If I cannot look into the eyes of an individual and say it, how can I apply it to a whole group. And even if one has the sheer nerve to say some of the things posted here while looking a Muslim in the eye doesn't automatically make it right either.

I was accused of being pathological in another thread, by Deb Chatterjee, because I said my acknowledged ignorance on the subject of Islam would not allow me to agree with her insistance that it was just plain evil.

Well, I think that everyone deserves to be heard equally. When these people overtake the conversation, as if louder and longer guarantees accuracy of their "opinion/argument", they are mistaken.

Muslims are people too, and like all people, I BELIEVE that EVERYONE deserves the benefit of the doubt and to be heard before opinions are fully and unchangably formed against them.

If I meet a Muslim on American soil, I am not suspicious of their presence here. If I meet people, I meet people. I would give the benefit of the doubt to anyone, until they give me reason not to.

So when a Muslim tells me that Islam is a religion of peace, and democracy, I am especially interested in hearing what they have to say because it is a new take for me. What all you ranters are in here screaming about the evils of Islam, you can't even really take credit for original thinking. None of it is original, I've heard all that well before you all shouted it incessantly, on and on and on and on and on in here. Really, it is pitiable.

Free speech in this country was intended to allow for political debate without fear of retribution. Shouting that you have free speech in order to defend your own drowning-out of the speech of those who attempt to debate you is NOT what our founding fathers had in mind.

Actually being educated and intelligent would make you incapable of holding unwavering opinions that allow generalizations of whole races, creeds, faiths, and ethnic groups.

Sorry to be long winded and off-topic, but as opposed to being offended or outraged, I choose to pity those of you who deserve it, thank those of you who deserve it, and maybe pass on any of the tiniest bit of wisdom I have gained here on Earth.

Is it Ahmed Hussin or Qasim? Someone has been busy under multiple names to increase the number of venters against Muslims here and using Muslim names too.

Danny B.,

It's been quite a while since both you and I contributed to the same thread. Based on those conversations, and your contributions to this thread, I have to agree with Mavaddat when he writes:

"Danny, you are a quintessentially reasonable man. I wish more of us were so willing to learn as you."

It's none of my business of course, but I wonder/worry if you may not be too reasonable for these threads and for the world at large. I hope not.

I know you can take care of yourself, but let me commend to you the last stanza of Robinson Jeffers' poem, "Shine, Perishing Republic":

"And boys, be in nothing so moderate as in love of man, a clever servant, insufferable master.
There is the trap that catches noblest spirits, that caught — they say — God, when he walked on earth."

Take care.

Danny B,
I don't know about you but calling a spade a spade is not hypocrisy. Please check out a dictionary on this issue.

Let me ask you a question: would you collaborate with Nazis because you want to be 'tolerant' and 'Christian'?

If no, then why do you make an exception for Islam?

As for 'true knowledge of Islam' if you have no knowledge of it yourself, as you say, then how do you know what is 'true knowledge of Islam' or not?

In other words, how can you make such an accusation when you have absolutely no basis for to make such accusations?

Qasim

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

Regarding your post above, I 'd hate to have your nerve in my tooth.

As a Christian, who believes in the "Golden Rule", I would not warmly receive those of another faith re-writing the Bible for me.

Really!

To no one specific (but you know who you are),

As I mentioned in another thread, this whole question at hand is a farce! It has been answered for weeks every time a Muslim speaks in here.

I have had it, and am recognizing my right to exclude myself from these ridiculous anti-Muslim commiserations parading as "discussions". i'll just look into other discussion groups that are more responsible and intellectually inclined.

To all of you, like Pamela*, who managed to get a pro-Muslim word in edgewise, I thank you. I now have a direction to follow in searching for balance and making up my own mind about Islam as I learn something of it. Lord knows, these ranters made sure I don't agree with them on principal.

*(I hate to exclude anyone by forgetting names, which is why I am not thanking you all directly)

I have found it to be very un-Christian around here, and all those arguing that Christians can't be terrorists because Christ never advocated it...pay attention to your own hypocritical arguments! Every time I read that one it is part and parcel of a blatant JUDGEMENT! What I see taking over the discussions in these threads is anything BUT what Christ taught.

So before you accuse me AGAIN of being un-Christian simply for wanting to know why self-described peacful Muslims are inspired by Islam...think hard about what you are actually saying. WWJD? Huh?

To all...peace!

Danny B.

Ok, let start cleansing/updating the Koran:

"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"

No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain natural events,contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via an "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

And I just love being in country where I can list these important items for world peace without the fear of Islamic death squads.

Thanks Mavaddat.

Yours was one of the names that escaped me when I referred to posters like Victoria. Sorry about the "slight".

Danny,

You are a quintessentially reasonable man. I wish more of us were so willing to learn as you.

Ahmed Hussein,

In giving the benefit of the doubt, yet again, perhaps I just don't fully understand you.

However, upon re-reading your post, when you say,

"Best of luck, and if you need any help with any of the verses, you only have to ask",

I can now see from the subsequent statement,

"There are certain things that one must not tolerate and totalitarian ideologies like Islam is one such example",

that yours is not the kind of help I would need.

Your opinion has been OVERWHELMINGLY represented in these threads. While I do not mean you specifically, these anti-Islam opinions have overwhelmed the discussions to the nearly complete exclusion of the opposite position.

I have taken plenty of abuse alone just trying to carry on a discussion with those people trying to present the other side of the debate. I have been told that I am pathological and an advocate of pedophilia for refusing to join the rest in jumping to conclusions, and offering to hear both sides because of my lack of knowledge on the subject. So imagine how a Muslim hoping to discuss how Islam inspires them must feel in these forums.

For anyone claiming to be Christian to perpetuate this unfriendly climate, and the denouncing of Islam as "evil" in such a mean way is hypocracy. This is not at all in keeping with Christ's message of peace and love for one's neighbor. As a Christian, it offends me.

I appreciate the articles from the Professor, and Pamela Taylor, as well as insight from posters like Victoria. I am really bored with sifting through hateful "Christian" postings to find them. It is to the point where I won't be looking here for any actual information any more.

Ahmed Hussein,

With all due respect, I believe that you misunderstand my post.

I am saying exactly what you are saying. I have expressed absolutely NO OPINION about Islam. I am denouncing those who do so without true knowledge of it, and am giving the benefit of the doubt to ANY Muslim who denies their accusations.

My complaint is that those non-Muslims shouting down everyone else with lengthy rants about the "evils" of Islam are preventing those of us who want to learn about Islam in these forums from doing so more easily.

Danny B,
Please return to give us your opinion about Islam after you've read the Quran, and not before. It does mean that you're speaking from a position of zero information and that is not a good position to argue from.

Best of luck, and if you need any help with any of the verses, you only have to ask.

Really, you do assume too much about Islam, something you have self-acknowledged you know very little or nothing about.

Furthermore, you assume you know critics like me just from our denunciation of something we know to be 'negative'. That's what they said about Churchill too when he railed against the evils of Nazism. Nobody listened to him then but he ended up being proven right. I'm not sure one is doing anybody a service when one tolerates evil just for the sake of being tolerant. There are certain things that one must not tolerate and totalitarian ideologies like Islam is one such example.

Ahmed Hussain

Anonymous:

"Do you think if the Muslims were behind the Holocaust, God forbid, the born Christians would give them the benefit of the doubt..."

As a Christian myself, I have tried on these threads to give Islam the benefit of the doubt, and to learn more about it before forming such strong opinions, as many of the posters here.

Regarding your comment above, many "Christians" on these threads won't give Muslims the benefit of the doubt KNOWING they were not behind the Holocaust!

In many cases, I feel that those "Christians" denouncing Islam the loudest in these threads are making up their minds first and seeking quotes (removed from larger contexts) from the Koran to support their bias after the fact. When I see this, I have an idea of who we are hearing from because I am familiar with the same abuses of Christian scripture. The more they rant and the louder they scream about the evils if Islam, the more they say about themselves.

Again, I am a Christian myself, so I know that sound bites, tee-shirt slogans, and bumper sticker sized pieces of the Bible are not valuable, in and of themselves. Christianity is much larger than that. So too, I have to assume about the Koran.

Until I have learned to read the Koran as a Muslim does, or taken the time to view Islam throught the eyes of a Muslim, I will maintain the Christian position of loving (or at least trying with all my might) my neighbor first.

If Muslims weren't threatened with getting their arms and legs cut off or killed for not following the Quran, how many of them would follow the good rules in it? Do what you like, just don't be stupid enough to get caught, seems to be the motto. If fear of getting killed or maimed in this life is the reason for virtue, not much virtue worth talking about, is there?

Really? You can bribe the devil to get into hell with just a few beers? Talk about cheap admission! What kind of beers do they have to be? Does it have to be a lager, or will a pilsner do?

If being against gambling, alcohol and pornography is oppressive, so be it. Knock yourself out gambling, boozing and wathcing porn. No one is stopping you. Then come back and tell me how it feels for your, your family and friends.

It feels great, frankly. There's nothing like a bit of the cards, a few beers and a lap dance. You should try it some day. Don't knock something you know nothing about.

Seriously - it's called freedom of choice. So long as people don't hurt others what's it to you? Why the puritannical mindset?

Oh, I forgot polygamy is moral. Wife beating is moral. Child marriages is moral. But a few beers will get you into hell. Yeah, sure.

Qasim

I think Jihadist (a she) and beginning to understand her style, was being facile on the Qur'an and Hadiths being memorised by Muslims. There are thousands of Hadiths and quite impossible for anyone to memorise them, even Islamic scholars. I think Jihadist said before somewhere she studied Shariah law after studying economics and international law in college.

You may not be a literalist but millions of your fellow Muslims are and have been throughout the 14 centuries.

Oh, I very much doubt you have memorized the hadiths. The Quran, yes - that repetitive piece of work, but certainly not the hadiths. Nobody memorizes the hadiths as a rule - it's not required in Islam in any shape or form.

However, having said that, how do you explain to us Americans the rather unsavory character of your prophet? Religion of peace indeed.

Qasim

Mavaddat

Lighten up. Concerned and I have been engaging in this sort of silly arguments for weeks now. And we both did not die.

I leave you and others to make considered arguments and I to go down the road of silly Muslim versions to take care of silly non-Muslim versions.

As for confidence in arguments, well, I am having fun doing as take of "certainties" to counter "certainties" so others will see the silliness of absolute certainty.

To Concerned and Jihadist,

I find it interesting that you both feel it is necessary to degrade the other and call him a propagandist when it is clear to me that you are both making reasonable points.

You could choose to discuss this matter academically in a friendly tone, but for some reason you have descended to a very childish place. I'm sorry to say this, but Bill O' Reilly would be proud of you both.

The fact that you both commit ad hominem fallacy speaks volumes to me about the confidence that you have (or lack, rather) in your own arguments.

Hey Concerned,

You don't have to think of them as hallucinations. You can call them "revelation" and then they become very valuable. It's all about what spin you give it.

Jihadist,

You made the statement that there was no Muslim money being used to buy weapons but of course there is as you know quite well. Previously you noted that there were no contemporary Muslim states making war with non-Muslim states. Of course you know that is incorrect but failed to admit to your misquote. More propaganda??

And of course, the American taxpayers pay for our weapons systems. That is a given. We don't go around spreading propaganda that someone else is purchasing said systems. And you are fortunate we have these weapon systems. In the hands of lunatics like bin Laden and the leaders of Iran, the globe would be toasted in Islamic stupidity.

And you still cannot come to grips with the problems with Islam's foundation i.e. the hallucinations of one Mohammed who thought he talked to God via "Hittite pretty wingy thingies". These hallucinations resulted in the violent Islam we know today and have witnessed since the plundering and looting agenda was first articulated. Why do you have a problem addressing this critical issue?? Something else you learned in the Islamic propaganda courses?

To all posters in On Faith threads here, forgive me for what I am about to engage in. And I am not above getting down to anyone's level.

Qasim Omar

I don't have to read the Suras and Hadiths. Remember, we Muslims memorize them remember?:)

So very interesting that you should demand that I read the Qur'an and Hadiths as a literalist, as an inerrantist. You want us Muslims to remain that, and then accuse of of being fundamentalist, bigots, fanatics, extremists? Make up your mind, for heaven's sake.

If being against gambling, alcohol and pornography is oppressive, so be it. Knock yourself out gambling, boozing and wathcing porn. No one is stopping you. Then come back and tell me how it feels for your, your family and friends.

Concerned

Let it up. Who is financing Israeli nuclear arsenal? Who is helping India in its nuke programme? Who is paying for US nuclear arsenal? American taxpayers - including you. To what end? And why is Pakistan and Iran having a nuclear programme? And why can't them have one? With the kind of neighbours they have and the threat they are under? Why is it all right for non-Muslim states to have nuclear programme? Oh wait, they are rational and reasonable beings.

And Concerned,

Only a propogandist would accuse someone of being a propogandist. Who is paying you eh?

well- pablo i called you no name-

but - fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me-

as you professed intentions of love for my soul before and it quickly degenrated into calling my prophet the antichrist-

but it wasnt personal pablo-
i started out talking to you, but went onto people in general-

so sorry bout that- i can see how you would think i was still talking to you-

im not one of those sneaky people that says "people' when i mean someone in particular.

i call a spade a spade- if i mean you, ill say it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" I will only say I care for your soul. I care for the souls of those who have been taken captive by a deception. My hope is to expose what is false so that precious people like you will embrace the truth."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

now while i consider it nie that you consider my soul precious, i think its pretty judgemental and out of line to make a judgement on my soul being captivated by deception- so when i get to stuff like that- i definitely dont read it.

now that ive read it-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"
“And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold” (Matthew 24:10-12).
Pablo"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

this is downright a rotten thing to say dude-

so- im glad i ignored it- i caught the tone of an insult coming and i never read those-

since i have never once insulted you or your religion- if you dont show that respect in a reciprocal manner- i will probably always skip over them-

i dont tolerate denigrations

do it positvely and ill read everything

so again- it was addressed in general to people here-

it wasnt necessarily you pablo

Jihadist,

And Iran and Pakistan's armed forces and nuclear programs are being financed by non-Muslim money? And bin Laden's (death be upon him) money for weapons is non-Muslim?

Do you really work for? Considering all the Muslim "wishy-wash" you write, it appears to be the propaganda office of Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Jihadist,
Your Islamic principles is oppressive to others. Read the Quran - especially surah 9. Read the biography of Muhammad. Read his instructions to convert others by the sword in the saheeh hadiths like this one:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Wtf? Your prophet has been ordered by your war-mongering god to fight against the people (i.e. non-Muslims like me) until we testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah etc.?

Do you expect Americans like me to lie down and take this sort of garbage?

Do you?

Well, if you do you're very much mistaken, dearie.

Qasim Omar

....and what is the excuse of non-Muslims for waging wars and committing human rights abuses?

What is the moral or ethical basis for that?

Why yes, I do have a loyalty to my faith. Let me see how I go about it. Ahh, applying Islamic principles in Islamic banking and financial instruments. No investment in arms, alcohol, drugs, gambling, pornography. Hope to reduce all those unnecessary things. May there be reduced number of weapons, gambling establishments, drug abuse, pornography and such wasting human habits. It is still there and burgeoning, it is not by Muslims' money and investment. But hey, I'm all for Cirque de Soleil and Tina Turner and Mozart and Duchamps and Mary Wollnstonecraft etc.

Makes me wonder sometimes reading these threads if some are indeed the inheritors of western civilization that give birth to Shakespeare, Beethoven and Van Goth.

If you read to the bottom of my post you will see my name. That shows me your do not read to the bottom.

Pablo

how can i call anonymous names?

you havent even given yourself a name!

what names?

that is kind of illogical- do you have a guilty conscience that you think i was calling the nameless names?

how can i call anonymous names?

you havent even given yourself a name?

what names?

that is kind of crazty- do you have a guilty conscience that you think i was calling the nameless names?

Dear Victoria,

You may call me names if you wish and I will only say I care for your soul. I care for the souls of those who have been taken captive by a deception. My hope is to expose what is false so that precious people like you will embrace the truth. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life no man comes to the Father except by me" (John 14:6).

Why is Jesus rejected as the Son of God in the Islamic world? If I preached that He is the Son of God in truly Muslim countries I would do so at the risk of my life, why? That is a simple question. Are the multitudes all misled in the Muslim world? Are American Muslims like you right and the consensus in the Muslim world wrong? I pray that you will analyze what you believe in the light of what Jesus said and did. If you do you will see that you believe a lie. If you want to call me a "bigot" because I want you to see the deception that is Islam so be it. You will not be able to say that Pablo did not try to warn you on judgment day. I only pray that you will see Jesus as your LORD so you will not have to face Him as your judge. Jesus said:

“And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold” (Matthew 24:10-12).
Pablo

thats completely not true pablo.

why is it ok to make sweeping genralizations and negatively bigoted remarks about muslims without any
discord expressed?

remove the plank pablo-

what is it that compels people to spend their time denouncing and expressing prejudice against another?

are these the same people who are claiming to be proponent of equality for humans?

there is no edification here,just preaching to a choir of bias.

what gets into someones heart, when they see posts with others who have nothing else to contribute but their fear and paranoia?

stop strengthening your phobias, come to reason.

step back and examine what you are saying.

Qasim Omar,

"You have fallen for the Muslim lies that always blame the victims."

You are so right we see them blaming everyone but themselves today.

Pablo

Armand777

"NO ONE has the right to force, coerce, or intimidate anyone into “converting”, or legislate religious “law”. "

Amen.

Hajiyeh Esmaelvand.