All Comments (42)

Where were you and your church and all the so-called Christians when America went off to war? Your whining about violence in the streets while remaining silent about war is like treating hemmoroids on a terminally ill cancer patient.

Jesus never killed anyone, neither did he advocate killing anyone, nor did he sanction killing anyone. He laid down his life rather than kill (he had the power even as he hung on the cross to annihilate mankind) and commanded his disciples to follow his example. That is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

For the first three centuries anno domini, Christians did just that and were martyred without offering any resistance. "They loved not their lives unto death." Then, an apostate church invented the utterly false doctrine of "just wars," and ersatz Christians have been killing ever since.

Now churches are the first to wave the flag and bless the boys going off to war. "Onward Christian Soldiers," a contradiction in terms, has become their theme song.

You cannot deny Christ and enjoy the blessings of God. You cannot bomb foreign peoples and have peace at home.

I cant believe all the Episcopal sewage they managed to dredge up for this 'onfaith' section. Spong, Schori, and now Chane.
Who next? Carter Heyward? VGR itself?

God, being in control of the universe, can prevent suffering whenever He sees fit, but wherever free will exists, consequences of choice must also exist. We refuse to remember that we are the ones who betrayed God, not vice versa. We are the ones who listened to the lies of the evil one in the Garden of Eden. We chose to mistrust the heart of God. In breaking the one command He gave us, we set in motion a life of breaking His commands.

Being able to discipline oneself for the benefit of others is the very essence of maturity. Shantideva said, “All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself (at the expense of others).” How we spend our time shapes who we are, and how we assemble the persons we are is cause for social concern. What examples are adults, entrusted with the awesome responsibility for their care, to the rapidly maturing next generation who will impact our society positively or negatively depending on to what we expose them. We have experienced the natural progression of an unguarded nation towards neglect, corruption and the loss of idealism. When awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama said in his lecture, “…For if we each selfishly pursue only what we believe to be in our own interest, without caring about the needs of others, we end up harming not only others but also ourselves…” One does not have far to look to witness the chaos and devastation caused in our society due to our turning away as a nation from our Judeo-Christian roots. Our culture is rotting. Just listen to the lyrics of popular songs, pick up a book or magazine, view a movie or television show. Pay attention to the violence permeating our communities, the disrespect and lack of courtesy displayed by all, judicial tyranny, and the neglect of and abuse directed at women. (Could this be a direct result of pornography? Duh!) Then consider that perhaps we are allowing the wrong input in our lives and the lives of those who have been entrusted to our care. After all, we are raising our next generation of leaders!!! Words like diversity, pluralism and tolerance have anesthetized us to the reality of good and evil. Tolerance is the cultivation of an attitude of indifference to things we see happening around us. In the name of peace, we tolerate evil. In the name of tolerance, we accept sin and call it freedom of speech or freedom of sexual persuasion. Albert Einstein once said, “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” We dare not stand up for what we believe for fear of being labeled intolerant. Tolerance sees your sin and embraces it. Grace sees your sin and hands you over to Christ's healing embrace.

God cannot make us choose to abide with Him. For now, God, tormented, waits upon us through one holocaust after another. satan’s best deception is its general success in concealing its own reality from the human mind. Most people live in such naivete regarding evil. What will it take for us to take evil seriously? satan lashes out on the earth like a madman, setting people against each other all over the globe. it devastates many lives through starvation, alcoholism, substance abuse and pornography. satan is at work in the holocaust of violent, disrespecting aborting of babies; narcissism; materialism; elitism; and the self-absorption we wallow in when we do not ensure our next generation is brought up in a culture with enriching, wholesome values. Failing to label evil evil misleads us about the world in which we live and our necessity for God’s grace, the only real answer and hope for any of us. If you are not living in touch with God, it is easy to blame Him or pass judgment on Him. We experience suffering and temptation because mankind chose to follow satan. Lurking in the heart of man, evil will erupt when it is permitted to act unimpeded.

Entrusted with the awesome responsibility of my children’s care, I am concerned about how their generation is being raised, to what they are being exposed, and the examples they have in their lives. Are they being enriched in mind, spirit and character? They all need highly esteemed mentors to guide them along the path to liberty. If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything. “The humblest citizen of all the land, when clad in the armor of a righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error,” - William Jennings Bryan. Hopefully, seeking our own pleasure is not the measure of our lives. We are called to be intolerant in love. Why not live as Philippians 4:8 instructs us to: Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. God is reaching out to rescue us … God made nature to sing His praises, to declare His glory and to love Him. He made humans with the ability to choose. He could have ordered our obedience; instead, he calls for our heart.

Russell D.:

"The difference between a man and a coward is how he chooses to fight his battles. Take the easy way out, or do it the hard way and learn your lesson."

The individuals who used guns to destroy the evil regimes of Japan and Germany, end slavery in the South, indeed make America a nation by fighting a revolution against Britain were men not cowards.

I agree that non-violence is often the best way out but not always. When a bully is picking an fight and won't let you walk away with one, non-violence is useless. Non-violence isn't helping end the evil that is taking place in Darfur. Sometimes the innocent need to defend themselves with violence.

Those defending gun ownership rights at all costs don't make the distinction between gun control and gun elimination. No one is proposing gun elimination. Controling what weapons can be purchased when and by whom is already being done in this country. Opining that one is headed down a slippery slope to total gun ownership elimination by passing sensible laws limiting certain types of weapons is to ignore the fact that said slippery slope is populated by myriad political entities who will never let gun control slide all the way down the slope.

It's a matter of degree.

Ban handguns, keep rifles - handguns are used in 90% of all such event or crime.

This is not the real issue, though; it suprises me that this reverend would suggest that it is.

The real issue is the despair that faces young people today and the dislocation of the American male. Feminists love champion female rights and powers; however, it is the young, lost male that will cause our next nightmare. Not because he is evil, but because he is lost in the faithless modern world.

Last Anon post is mine.

Russell D. and Laurie S.,

I worked with a student from the Sudan about 5 years ago, and we got into a discussion of the Bible (we were both working at a Mennonite Liberal Arts college) and she gave a different interpretation of "turn the other cheek."

They believe that it was illegal to hit a person on one of the sides of the face. So if someone hit you on the legal side, you turn the other cheek to taunt them because they couldn't hit you on that side. And if they did, they'd be punished.

It's funny how opposite their version is from ours!

Laurie S.,

Jesus did not tell people to let their enemies beat them to death for no reason. That is misinterpretation of scripture.

Greetings Mr. J.B.C. et al:

Monopoly of Religion is one thing to contemplate AND the Monopoly on Gun Control, via in the b”Black Market(s) or Underground(s) International Networks [ like the “Religious Mafiosos” et al] versus “Any Government” (like the streets of New York), U.S.A.) or Iraq or Afghanistan et al is Impossible to stop in a modern world.

So: the question is about “WHO IS HOLDING OR HIDING His or Her GUN(s)?

That HUMATE Kid, in the Virginia Mass "Classmate murders" incident and ALL those poor victims of such cases, AND not to mention "Suicides" of American Teens and unjustifiable "Gang" or non gang related deaths (Drugs n "Tons of Guns"), AND the "Car Crashes" victims of mostly Teens in U.S.A., is around 12,000 plus a Year.

Hence: More unnecessary deaths combined in the current wars 7 world trade Center Victims.

These potential body's, self inflicted or accident or via insanity, that go to waist, so to speak, would be better At the Iraq, Afghanistan et al War or International Policing efforts instead.

So in other words, better Give them poor kids an M-16's or 50 Caliber machine, etc than ti die or get killed for naught or in vain. Forgive me, but this is true.

Think. Think if your ,13,14,15,16,17 plus year olds, would be better served, as Blood and Meet ready to serve America, in the Army (I've seen joining such Institutions here saved countless lives from that dreaded “Street Gobbling Monster”) and have a greater statistical probability of living a happy or miserable LIFE or both.

And not to mention a healthy family psychological state or structure of their functionality in Private and Public in Globally thinking and thus acting Local?.

Ya Ya Momma Poppas Mons. : - ( / We Never Die! And those beautiful KIDS are NOT DEAD Yo! So be happy, No worry and go Space Forth not Back. Ya ?

In all my years(not saying I am old, cause I am still young by society's standards) I have learned that you can fight someone without ever laying a hand on them or using force.
It's an interesting concept and has worked for me. You don't need to fight back. You can turn the other cheek, yet still come out of the fight as a winner. And the whole time, all you do is not fight. If anyone can figure what I mean, then please feel free to tell me what you think. I know what I mean, I'd just like to see if anyone else can figure it out.

Theo,
Another view on your UK point: Even though firearm death rates in the UK are up 90 percent, they are still a tiny fraction of those in the US. I, and I am sure you as well, would love for the firearm death rate in the US to be a fraction of what it is today. But look who has the LOWEST rate of gun violence in the world - Japan. It is about one fourth of one percent of the US's. I think it is worth asking what is Japan doing that the US can do that makes gun violence in Japan practicsally non-existant.

To clarify, I am not necessarily taking a position in favor of more laws restricting guns. I am attempting to explain my emotional stance.

For a long time I've been torn about the 2nd Amendment. On the one hand, I appreciate the argument about individual rights. On the other, I've read many times that a huge percentage of handgun deaths in the US have nothing to do with crime. Instead, those deaths often result from domestic squabbles, confrontations with strangers, road rage shootings, accidents involving children, and so forth.

My question is this - is anyone capable of shooting another person in the heat of an argument? Or are some people simply psychologically incapable of controlling their anger? I admit that I am scared to see anyone carry a gun, especially a man, regardless of the circumstances. It has nothing to do with the gun and everything to do my fear of anger in other people, especially men. Similarly, I have an issue with corporal punishment, because I worry that parents' anger will overflow and they might take out their anger on their children.

Go to www.choosejesusrightnow.com & click on BUMPER STICKERS.

L A U R I S. et al: Intterrresstiingg Ya Sis et al! : + )/ Y

a Mpmma/Poppa Mons! Vey Goooda Philosoph sita.See MommY!

I was raised in Montgomery County and now live in rural Alaska where hunting is a way of life. It is NOT sport here but the natives depend on it for subisitence; no I am not native. I own a Ruger .338 for caribou, moose, etc. and it only holds 3 shells. My shotgun, a 12 gauge for bear protection and upland birda as well as waterfowl comes in very handy for ducks, geese, ptarmigan, spruce hen, etc. My handgun, a .44 magnum with bearloads is used strictly for protection against bears while I'm fishing or cannot handle my shotgun.

You ask why not buy meat? The prices for meat, any kind is very expensive and makes it a luxury and those who do hunt usually keep a full freezer in case the next hunting season is not so kind to them. I am not a sport hunter, looking for the biggesty bull or biggest rack to put on my wall, but the wild game here is abundant, very healthy and cost effective. Here, when out on a walk or snowmachine ride observing the animal tracks, wolves (not unlike the ones gather in NOVA and Rock Creek Park) among them, it really makes you glad that we can carry a weapon here. Otherwise, an irritated bear, frightened moose or a wolf may remind us that we are not the masters of this environment.

Guns should be owned for a legitimate purpose, and not attack weapons. Do not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Something very odd happened to my comment. Big pieces of it are MISSING.

I mentioned that you can't walk into a bomb shop, a fire doesn't chase you with malice aforethought, and a chemical attack requires know how, but all that is GONE!

Handguns are vastly more dangerous than any of these other specious alternatives.

>>> If it hadn't been guns it would have been a bomb, or fire, or chemical disaster, or any number of things. >> Even with Jesus being a proponent of non-violence, he would know that the people would have to be able to defend themselves against enemies. <<<

Aherm. I'm not a Christian, but I used to be, and I DO remember something about turning the other cheek. Indeed Jesus would have said to let the enemy smite you. He directly commanded his disciples not to fight or strike back.

It is amazing that I'm saying, not just as an American and as an ISRAELi Born "Sabra" but:

"Out of ALL the ABRAHAMIC (plus their assorted flavors) that Rabbi JESUS was "The Most PEACE-FULL" of most the HUMATES here on this Miraculous and beautiful Sapce-Ship Momma/Poppa Earth,

and tragically has wrongly been based on their [Out dated] PRE-APOCALPTIC belief SYSTEMS on ancient lores and of their Ancient Epochs and ZERO Apacalyptic in ANY imagined or writtenly form! Ya Ya Momma Poppa Mons Ya. :-)' Sholom ALL!

Sorry, William, This is NOT "the result of a godless society" - the US is more religious now ever.

This is the result of a madman with a gun.

It boggles my mind that this student or anybody else for that matter can walk into a store and buy this type of weapon. Why would anybody need this type of weapon unless they are planning a mass murder? These are military weapons that should be left to the military. How many people can you kill with a knife before others stop you? Murder and gun violence are multifold higher here then in western Europe where access to weapons is severely restricted. Coincidence? I think not.

Taking all the weapons away will not take away the evil in people's hearts or the mental illness that lead to these massacres, but it would take away the means of inflicting such carnage so quickly.
And this silly argument about needing weapons to defend ourselves against the people who have weapons is a circuitous argument if I have ever heard one. So what came first: the chicken or the egg?
I would like for anybody to give me a rational reason why a civilian in this country needs to own assault rifles and weapons of the type used today.

Why compaare to the US? Compare the UK to the UK: After gun control gun murders have gone UP!.

But my point was not to get into a squirrly debate about statistics. It was to suggest that clergy as elevated as the Episcopal Bishop of Washington ought to be able to enunciate some thoughts about man's relationship to God in the face of tragedy. If you look at the Dateline interview with the Father of one of the victims, you will hear words far more wise and noble than the Bishop's banalities.

"Between April and November 2001, the number of murders in the Metropolitan Police area committed with a firearm soared by almost 90% over the same period a year earlier.

Armed street robberies rose, in the same period, from 435 to 667 in 2001 - an increase of 53% - while overall in the capital there were 45,255 street robberies and snatches last year, against 32,497 in 2000. "

Compare that to the US level, i.e. gun related deaths/capita. US has 33000 gun related death/year.

Every 3rd junvenile death in the US is gun related.

And there is nothing pathetic about a religious leader dealing with issues of life and death, not only on a transcendent level, like they must have an opinion on abortion.

If yo are a gun freak, fine, but you gotta have some credentials to own a deadly weapon. I am sure you do.

So the Episcopal Bishop of Washington, having led numerous flocks, studied theology and scripture, prepared thousands of homilies and performed countless sacraments, has nothing more insightful to say about the VT shootings than to add his voice to the chorus of know-nothings who call for gun cotrols.

How pathetic.

Even if gun control made sense it would be pathetic. People don't look to religious leaders for political solutions. Or at least they shouldn't. Render unto Ceasar, Bishop and think on something spiritual to say.

Oh, and you might interested at what pops up if you google "handgun deaths UK". Which is an ISLAND, where they have some signigicant gun control.

"Between April and November 2001, the number of murders in the Metropolitan Police area committed with a firearm soared by almost 90% over the same period a year earlier.

Armed street robberies rose, in the same period, from 435 to 667 in 2001 - an increase of 53% - while overall in the capital there were 45,255 street robberies and snatches last year, against 32,497 in 2000. "

The fact that a person walks into a gun shop, simply puts identification and a credit card on the table, buys the gun and leaves that place, with plenty of deadly ammunition is: a scandal.

No doubt, criminals will alway be able to get guns, but we should raise the barrier as high as possible, for everybody. It will not happen, though.

Guns are being made to kill. Other than cars, knives,.... There unique reason to exist is to kill.

If somebody wants to do other things with it, as a sport, fine. But the qualification that you have to supply needs to be outstanding.

Yes, 2nd amendment: was put up in a time when there maybe really was a need. But in today's dense cities, all kinds of influences (violence displayed all over), triggers, it is no longer appropriate. 200 million guns in a society like this. Suicidal.

It's the individual which is responsible for its action, but there is no reason to put the barrier to highly deadly weapons close to non-exist.

And by the way, something I do not want to hear anytime soon is that talk of healing. There should not be any healing, it must stay as a continous pain. That healing talk, in the past, has just been used to move on and not really do anything about it. It is just egoism going extreme.

God does exist. I dont have enough faith to believe that we were made manifest from a slime-blob millions of years ago. If we are here by mere chance, then what are we here for? Are lives then exist without purpose. What happened is a great tragedy, and is proof that we are in a real world, and in the real world evil does exist. We are all capable of sin, and if we were honest, everyone has the capacity to commit murder, if placed in the wrong situation. Just because we mere humans with our FINITE wisdom do not have an answer to why this happened, does not mean that an answer or reason does not exist. The first step towards wisdom is to fully understand that we do not have answers for everything. May God be with the families of those 32 innocent victims, and with the family of the young man who held the gun.

"In truth there must be a person who pulls the trigger but it is the gun that does the killing."

Following this logic, really, there is a gun that fires the bullet, but it is the bullet that does the killing.

In other words, why ban guns? Why not just ban the bullets? These are death by bullet wounds, not by the guns themselves. Let people own all the guns they want, just ban the bullets, they're the real killers.

This is a horrible tragedy. A heinous crime. My heart is heavy for the families and victims. I am angered by what appears to be an attempt to politicize this massacre with talks of gun control. Guns were readily available in the 1950's but people were not committing these types of crimes. The problem here is not the tools used to kill but the heart of people who do these things. This is the result of a godless society. No fear of God, no respect for human life, and no Love for one another.

Norrie,

Is that because the Buddhists lived up in a mountain somewhere where no one could attack them? :-)

In Buddhism, Right Livelihood is the fifth of the eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path.

In classic Buddhism, Right Livelihood EXCLUDED dealing in weapons or making them.

When will Christianity catch up with this ancient proscription?

BLS.

I agree with you that the problem is spiritual. There is one reason I would support this proposed legislation. If we are to follow the true core concepts of various religions/spirituality; compassion, love, peace then are politics (legislation) should be a demonstration of this.

How is a gun ever supportive of these traits? What do we need a gun for in America? We don’t need it to hunt food. I have a hard time with the “we need them for protection”. I don’t see Jesus, Buddha or other religious leaders picking up a gun because some one else has one.

The legislation itself is not a solution but a statement of belief.

The shooter had free will and is responsible for his actions. I will not argue that.

However when a tragedy like this occurs I always ask “what leads a person to do what they did “. Not necessarily why did they do it, but what lead them here. What in their life or the lives of those around them influenced them and led them to this point?

We have too many influences in our society that can lead one away from these core concepts and too few that support them. This is something we can control.

My thoughts anyway.

Peace

I can't understand the immediate turn to political solutions. Gun control laws - which could I'm sure be tightened up to prevent purchases at trade shows, etc. - will not solve this problem, which is spiritual. These sorts of things didn't happen on a rather regular basis 50 years ago - but they do now.

This is a spiritual dis-ease, and it requires a spiritual solution. We are a violent, coarse culture, and these things will continue to happen unless we do something about the sickness at the heart of it. And I think that a conversation about that is about to occur; it would be a huge mistake to derail in this in favor of making it about gun laws.

That's only a solution based in power, which is in fact the problem. That, and a total disregard for each other as human beings. Let's talk about that, instead.

I completely agree with Bishop Chane. I don't do that much with any panelist.

This little discussion brings to mind some good advice.

Are you a man when you have a gun?
No, I am a man without one.
Anybody can shoot a gun. A man isn't afraid to use his fists. The difference between a man and a coward is how he chooses to fight his battles. Take the easy way out, or do it the hard way and learn your lesson.

Kevin,

It is even easier to illegally buy and own handguns, which is how the vast majority of criminals obtain them. Gun control laws will not stop that. And anyone can make any number of types of bombs these days; kids can look it up on the internet. Throw one into a classroom and you can take out a whole bunch of people at once. Fire can be very quick and deadly, especially in tall, old buildings like dormitories. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Listen, I happen to agree with you that there is no reason for handguns. And I would be perfectly fine with some kind of restriction on them. But putting a legal restriction on them is not going to prevent this stuff from happening. Many people who plan on using them for illegal purposes don't get them legally anyway.

The people that make the argument, "that if it wasn't a gun (used to kill 32 people) it would have been a bomb, or fire or toxic chemicals" are intellectually dishonest. They conveniently ignore the fact that while it is easy to legally buy and possess handguns, you cannot legally buy a bomb ready-made, or toxic chemicals that kill as quickly and efficiently as guns. Even fire would not have been as swift and deadly as guns. Granted, you cannot prevent people from doing things like this, but you can restrict their access to firearms that are designed to maim and kill people quickly.

I have never understood the anti-gun control position. What place to handguns, semi-automatic, and automatic weapons have in our society? You don't go hunting with any of those, so their obvious use is to kill other humans. Why do we let this continue???

Russell:

Why are you posting the same response under every panelist's answer? That really gets rather annoying...

I struggle with the picture of Jesus holding an automatic, or even a bow and arrow.
Not sure he would approve of anyone else holding one either.
The question you have to ask yourself, is whether more innocents die because of these gun laws than are saved by people being able to "defend themselves".

The question isn't what God wants for us. It is what we want for ourselves. There is no doubt that this a tremendous tragedy for not only the ones involved, but also for the ones who are not involved. This ordeal has implications that reach beyond this world.

It is as much spiritual as it is corpreal. The evil done on this day far outweighs some of the good, yet eventually the good will bounce back. But you must realize, that in this world, there will never be a total reign of Good over evil, nor will Evil reign over Good. It is a constant balnace. Right and wrong, yin and yang. There cannot be one without the other. When one act overshadows the other, than inevitably the latter will overshadow the other when it is time. Balance is always the key.

Belief in a higher power has nothing to do with it. Whether you are a Christian, Muslim, Jew, athiest, Buddhist, etc., the main picture is to know that the world will even itself out in the end.

While the country mourns for the people at VT, know within your heart, or within your God, that everything will eventually turn out to be better in the end.

My faith-based, gut response is to cry out in anguish over the horror of the hatred and despair and violence that is in this world. It is sometimes unbearable to think about what happens to people all over the world on a daily basis.

My next response, however, is not the same as Bishop Chane's. I do not agree with his statement "in truth there must be a person who pulls the trigger but it is the gun that does the killing." People who are bent on a murderous rampage will find a way to accomplish it. If it hadn't been guns it would have been a bomb, or fire, or chemical disaster, or any number of things.

Think about what the response to something like this might have been in Biblical times. Would the people have said "ok, that's it, no more guns (or bows and arrows, or whatever they used back then)"? Even with Jesus being a proponent of non-violence, he would know that the people would have to be able to defend themselves against enemies.

There isn't anything we can do to insulate ourselves from the bad things of the world. There are always going to be psychopaths, and people killing in the name of such-and-such, and just plain mean people. As long as we are on this earth, we have to live amongst the good and the evil. In my faith I can pray for safety for myself and others, and comfort and strength for the families affected by these atrocities. Unfortunately you cannot prevent it from ever happening.