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Ann 0:

"You repent" obviously should have been "you write". I repent.

Anne:

1. You repent: “Job does not repent, except for not considering the greatness of God sufficiently. He does not repent for having questioned God's ways.”

I respectfully disagree. Job has considered the greatness of God sufficiently. He delivered three speeches on the greatness or soveignity of God. (Job 9:5-13; 12:7-15; 26:5-14) He acknowledges God performs “great things beyond understanding, marvelous things without number” (Job 9:10) and these things are but the “outskirts of his ways” (Job 26:14).

2. Could you tell us more about the "oath of Innocence"?

Three extracts may be helpful:

I: “The Oath of Innocence is an ancient legal device, found in Babylonian, Hittite and Jewish legal codes. It is not found in Egyptian legal codes, since Egyptian law was never codified. The word of the reigning Pharaoh was the law. However, it is found in Egyptian mythology in the Final Judgment described in The Book of the Dead. So, it may have existed in the unwritten common law of Egypt.

The Oath of Innocence was a self-contained lawsuit involving a summary trial in absentia and two default judgments that issued virtually automatically. In all Ancient Near Eastern cultures, it was understood to have been given by God himself and reserved for those most difficult of cases where the defendant could not be found or if found, could not be compelled to come to court to answer the charges. Three features stand out.

(1) No formal court was required. The swearing of the Oath of Innocence created a court where God himself was the judge.

(2) No summons of a defendant was required. The swearing of the Oath of Innocence dispensed with the need for a summons.

(3) No witnesses were required. The confessions within the Oath of Innocence made by the deponent provided all the evidentiary testimony needed.

The Oath of Innocence could be used as a shield or as a sword. When a person such as Job was suspected of wrongdoing or was the victim of wrongdoing, that person could swear out an Oath of Innocence in the presence of God declaring his innocence and condemning the actual wrongdoer. And the Oath of Innocence would be accepted by any civil or criminal court as a final adjudication of the matters covered by the oath.

The jurisdiction for Job to put God on trial through an Oath of Innocence arises from the fact that there were no limits on who could be a defendant. It just had to be a person. And God guaranteed that he would hear the case. (1 Kings 8:31-32; 2 Chronicles 6:22-23; Deuteronomy 1:17)”

II: “The enforcement of that claim is through a summary default procedure. When the actual wrongdoer, in this case God, did not show up and enter a defense to the Oath of Innocence, a two-fold summary default judgment would immediately issue.

(1) The first judgment was automatic. The person swearing the Oath of Innocence Job would be immediately vindicated of any suspected wrongdoing and the actual wrongdoer God would be immediately convicted of the alleged wrongdoing. That first judgment of vindication or justification was a finding of causal responsibility. Job would be found innocent of any responsibility in the evil that befell him. God would be found responsible for the undeserved evil that befell Job.

(2) The second judgment was almost as automatic, but it issued differently. The person swearing the Oath of Innocence, Job was legally entitled to proceed further and condemn the actual wrongdoer God. The condemnation was a curse separate from oath itself. That second judgment of condemnation was the actual imposition of blame, shame and guilt on the one causally responsible. The person swearing the Oath of Innocence Job would then formally curse the wrongdoer God.

Both these were summary judgments were default judgments delivered “in absentia”.

It should be remembered that God himself in giving the Oath of Innocence had promised that he would execute those summary default judgments. (1 Kings 8:31-32; 2 Chronicles 6:22-23)”

III: “Some think Job’s use of the Oath of Innocence is an example of a covenant lawsuit and there may be something to that.

A covenant is a contract between God and man with reciprocal obligations. Each party to the contract has rights and duties towards the other party. The Deuteronomic covenant is perhaps the paramount example of covenant in the Old Testament. If man does certain things, then God promises to do certain things. (Deuteronomy 28:1-14) If man fails to do certain things, then God promises to do certain other things. (Deuteronomy 28:15-45) Those mutual promises set up mutual rights and duties.

The solution for one party when the other party breaches the contract is a “rib” or lawsuit. There are many Old Testament examples of lawsuits by God against his people for breach of covenant. The Book of Job might be read as a unique example of a lawsuit by man against God for breach of covenant. Job had “diligently observed all” God’s “commandments (Deuteronomy 28:1) and yet God did not deliver on his promises (Deuteronomy 28:2-13) but rather imposed on Job the curses he promised would only be imposed on the wicked. (Deuteronomy 28:15-44) In fact, the evils that befall Job have close parallels to those Deuteronomic curses.

In terms of covenant, the basis on which God puts man on trial is the same basis on which Job puts God on trial: a violation of an agreement made. Conceptually, holding God to his promises can involve putting God on trial. A man does not have to be sinless to do it. The standard of righteousness is merely “diligence”. (Deuteronomy 28:1) And Job certainly meets that standard.

I acknowledge the parallels between the Oath of Innocence and the covenant lawsuit, but have presented Job’s case in terms of God’s general revelation in creation (the natural moral law) rather than in terms of God’s special revelation in scripture (covenant). My reasons are two-fold.

(1) In part, I find the evidence of covenant in The Book of Job very thin. Job does say: “I have made a covenant with my eyes; how then could I look on a virgin” (Job 31:1) and that may imply a covenant Job had with God not merely with himself. But that is the extent of the evidence and it is clearly not a major feature of the book.

(2) More importantly, I find the evidence of the natural moral law especially the language of “wholeness”, “completion”, “well-roundedness”, “perfection” in the book much stronger. Job’s right to an answer is rooted in the natural human need to know the truth and God. God’s duty to answer is rooted in the moral principle that “ought implies can”. If Job, and by implication all mankind, ought to seek a good human life and truth in particular, then God has to make it possible for him and them to do so at some point. The injustice done to Job would still be injustice even if no covenant existed to prohibit that evil. Justice is logically prior to law. Justice is rendering unto another than which is their natural right, not merely that for which they have legally contracted.

Some might call natural law a covenant with creation but I think such an interpretation misunderstands the essence of covenant which is agreement.

3. You write: “I have read that Job was not a Jew. What do you think about the claim he was a Syrian?

Job was not a Jew; he was more likely an Edomite.

ROBERT S. says: By the bye, since God praises Job for what he said "about God", God cannot be refering to Job's so-called "repentance" in Job 42:6. A confession of wrongdoing is a statement "about oneself", not "about God". This is devastating to most fundamentalist interpretations of Job who try to use Job's so-called "repentance" to undercut everything the Book of Job has to say.

ANN O. replies: Oh, I agree entirely that Job does not repent, except for not considering the greatness of God sufficiently. He does not repent for having questioned God's ways.

Could you tell us more about the "oath of Innocence"? I don't understand it. From what did it derives? What was its purpose? Was it an exclusively Jewish notion? I have read that Job was not a Jew. What do you think about the claim he was a Syrian?

Ann O.

Ann O:

You ask: "Do you think that God's refusal to answer Satan might have been a matter of refusing to incriminate Himself before the (finite) jury of humans who would not understand His ways?"

1. I think God's answer to Satan is Job, a powerful demonstration of moral integrity and selfless love.

2. I think God's answer to humankind will be a variation on the substance of God's dialogue with Satan: the necessity of evil in forming selfless love. The dialogue merely sets out the framework for an answer. Further testimony from God is required to flesh the details of necessity and sufficiency. He doesn't give it in the Book of Job because if he did, it would defeat his purpose. I think that answer comes at the Final Judgment. The trial of God precedes the trial of humankind. God is judged on the necessity of evil. Humankind is judged on selfless love.

3. In the Book of Job, the problem is not that human beings will not now understand God's reasons for evil. There is nothing conceptually difficult in God's dialogue with Satan. The problem is that human beings will not now agree with God's reasons for evil. To understand is not necessarily to agree. In part, the test is whether one will prematurely judge and condemn or acquit (God and others) before all the evidence is in place.

You write: "That God would praise Job for telling the truth about Him as Job saw it was a great religious discovery for me."

1. Me too. To the extent that Job is paragon of virtue to be followed and I think he is, it is a sin not to question God. It is also a sin to prematurely acquit or condemn God. That is a real eye-opener. We all tend to equate virtue and faith with submission and surrender. The Book of Job says they are polar opposites.

2. The passage where God praises Job (Job 42:7) is very powerful. The Hebrew there means Job is "correct" and not merely "sincere". It carries no nuance of sincerity. Hence, "the way Job saw it" has to be understood as the correct way of seeing it. It is not as if he saw it that way and was wrong but God excused him. He saw it that way and was right and God praised him.

By the bye, since God praises Job for what he said "about God", God cannot be refering to Job's so-called "repentance" in Job 42:6. A confession of wrongdoing is a statement "about oneself", not "about God". This is devastating to most fundamentalist interpretations of Job who try to use Job's so-called "repentance" to undercut everything the Book of Job has to say. Common translations of Job 42:6 using the English "repent" are mistranslations. The Hebrew there is the same word used to describe God's so-called "repentances" throughout the Hebrew scriptures. It is merely a "change in course". It is not the normal Hebrew word for a confession of wrong-doing. If Job confesses sin in filing the lawsuit and withdraws the lawsuit, then he is damned on the terms of his Oath of Innocence and God is compelled, by the structure of the Oath that God created, to execute that damnation on Job. Otherwise God is contradicting himself. The Oath of Innocence was rarely used in the ancient world because if you used it and you were wrong, then your wrongness amounted to the unforgivable sin.

God, being in control of the universe, can prevent suffering whenever He sees fit, but wherever free will exists, consequences of choice must also exist. We refuse to remember that we are the ones who betrayed God, not vice versa. We are the ones who listened to the lies of the evil one in the Garden of Eden. We chose to mistrust the heart of God. In breaking the one command He gave us, we set in motion a life of breaking His commands.

Being able to discipline oneself for the benefit of others is the very essence of maturity. Shantideva said, “All the joy the world contains, Has come through wishing happiness for others. All the misery the world contains, Has come through wanting pleasure for oneself (at the expense of others).” How we spend our time shapes who we are, and how we assemble the persons we are is cause for social concern. What examples are adults, entrusted with the awesome responsibility for their care, to the rapidly maturing next generation who will impact our society positively or negatively depending on to what we expose them. We have experienced the natural progression of an unguarded nation towards neglect, corruption and the loss of idealism. When awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989, the Dalai Lama said in his lecture, “…For if we each selfishly pursue only what we believe to be in our own interest, without caring about the needs of others, we end up harming not only others but also ourselves…” One does not have far to look to witness the chaos and devastation caused in our society due to our turning away as a nation from our Judeo-Christian roots. Our culture is rotting. Just listen to the lyrics of popular songs, pick up a book or magazine, view a movie or television show. Pay attention to the violence permeating our communities, the disrespect and lack of courtesy displayed by all, judicial tyranny, and the neglect of and abuse directed at women. (Could this be a direct result of pornography? Duh!) Then consider that perhaps we are allowing the wrong input in our lives and the lives of those who have been entrusted to our care. After all, we are raising our next generation of leaders!!! Words like diversity, pluralism and tolerance have anesthetized us to the reality of good and evil. Tolerance is the cultivation of an attitude of indifference to things we see happening around us. In the name of peace, we tolerate evil. In the name of tolerance, we accept sin and call it freedom of speech or freedom of sexual persuasion. Albert Einstein once said, “The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” We dare not stand up for what we believe for fear of being labeled intolerant. Tolerance sees your sin and embraces it. Grace sees your sin and hands you over to Christ's healing embrace.

God cannot make us choose to abide with Him. For now, God, tormented, waits upon us through one holocaust after another. satan’s best deception is its general success in concealing its own reality from the human mind. Most people live in such naivete regarding evil. What will it take for us to take evil seriously? satan lashes out on the earth like a madman, setting people against each other all over the globe. it devastates many lives through starvation, alcoholism, substance abuse and pornography. satan is at work in the holocaust of violent, disrespecting aborting of babies; narcissism; materialism; elitism; and the self-absorption we wallow in when we do not ensure our next generation is brought up in a culture with enriching, wholesome values. Failing to label evil evil misleads us about the world in which we live and our necessity for God’s grace, the only real answer and hope for any of us. If you are not living in touch with God, it is easy to blame Him or pass judgment on Him. We experience suffering and temptation because mankind chose to follow satan. Lurking in the heart of man, evil will erupt when it is permitted to act unimpeded.

Entrusted with the awesome responsibility of my children’s care, I am concerned about how their generation is being raised, to what they are being exposed, and the examples they have in their lives. Are they being enriched in mind, spirit and character? They all need highly esteemed mentors to guide them along the path to liberty. If we don’t stand for something, we will fall for anything. “The humblest citizen of all the land, when clad in the armor of a righteous cause, is stronger than all the hosts of Error,” - William Jennings Bryan. Hopefully, seeking our own pleasure is not the measure of our lives. We are called to be intolerant in love. Why not live as Philippians 4:8 instructs us to: Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. God is reaching out to rescue us … God made nature to sing His praises, to declare His glory and to love Him. He made humans with the ability to choose. He could have ordered our obedience; instead, he calls for our heart.

Hello,Robert Sutherland,

Yes, I can see how you interpret the Book of Job as a trial of God. It seems to me that Job was also on trial by his friends. Do you think that God's refusal to answer Satan might have been a matter of refusing to incriminate Himself before the (finite) jury of humans who would not understand His ways?

I must admit I checked your book at Amazon (and indeed the scholarly reviews are fine :-) I find it interesting that you have been greatly influenced by Mortimer Adler. I read his "How to Read a Book" when I was a college freshman (60 years ago! yikes!!) and it made me realize that the way to wisdom is to read the classics very, very carefully. Secondary sources can be a help, but there's no substitute for originals!!!

When I finally read Job all the way through I was amazed that it was more than the story of the paradigm of a just man who suffers extraordinary injustices. Reading the end of the work carefully was literally a revelation to me. That God would praise Job for telling the truth about Him as Job saw it was a great religious discovery for me.

Also like you, I am an admirer of Aquinas, though I don't consider myself a Thomist. His defense of reason and of the necessity for theologians to be subject to reason is sorely needed in many religious traditions these days, and I don't just mean the Muslim fundamentalists, either.

I concur with Ann O and even wrote a book Putting God on Trial: The Biblical Book of Job (http://www.bookofjob.org) that was highly praised by scholars.

Job is a model of the piety of protest, a Christ-figure who is no sheep to the slaughter.

Job not only accuses God of apparent wrong-doing. He puts God on trial for it through an Oath of Innocence. The terms of Oath compel an answer from God, lest God be forced to condemn himself.

God shows up but doesn't give an answer in his two speeches. The answer would seem to be, based on the early dialogue between God and Satan, God's direct authorization of evil is morally necessary for the creation of the possibility for a completely selfless love of human beings for God. Seemingly, God cannot give that answer because it would violate the implicit terms of God's own trial by Satan set out earlier in the book. Giving an answer would give Job a selfish reason to worship God.

I read Job as ultimately "changing course", not "morally repenting" of challenging God. (Job 42:7) He had intended to condemn God in the absense of an answer but found suggestions of a future end to evil and an explanation for that evil in God's second speech. The Leviathan image there draws on the Isaian apocalyse (Isaiah 25-31)and sets up those suggestions. I read Job as adjourning the trial of God to the day of Final Judgment spoken of earlier (Job 19) to await a fuller answer from God. God gets an adjournment not a conviction or an acquittal.

In the meantime, Job's test is not ended. It is merely transposed into a different key. If the first test was having less reward than one's merit deserves, then the second test is having more reward than one's merit deserves. The key question is whether Job will continue to challenge God for answers even when he is well off. Will we?

Hi, Philip,

You say that God's message to Job was essentially shut up, I'm powerful, and you are disrespectful for questioning me.

But He says more: He punishes Job's accusers because they accused him of being disrespectful, and then He defends Job for telling the truth about Him:
Jahweh says to the accusers:

"And it came to pass after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and with your two friends; for you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job. Now, therefore take seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job and offer up a holocause for yourselves; and let my servant Job pray for you."

In other words, God wants us to speak the truth even if it accuses God of apparent wrong-doing! Job is chastised for not recognizing the greatness of God. He is NOT reprimanded for questioning God's justice. Very much to the contrary, he is praised and rewarded for it.

I'm quite sure all the atheists and agnostics who speak this apparent truth about God's apparent injustice also have a very special place in the heart of the God of Truth and Justice.

And I'm also sure that the answer to the problem of such evil must lie somewhere in the fact that the God of Truth and Justice is also the God of Absolute Love. We don't understand the mystery of self-sacrificing love either, but we see its unmistakable value: this week we have seen the splendid value of that engineering professor's willingness to die for his young students. No doubt his reward is great.

To James Long: Your threats are evil. If there is a merciful god, he or she would never punish people for being unable to believe nonsensical stories like the Bible. Perhaps they would be rewarded for using their heads! And can you imagine a god who would allow billions of people to burn in hell just because they picked the "wrong" religion? Or because they could not believe ancient fairly tales? Hell is an imaginary place that exists only in the demented minds of haters. Please stop threatening people with eternal torture. If there is a god, it is YOU who will be judged for making vicious threats.

While events close to home were unfolding, we had an average day elsewhere.

BAGHDAD Apr 18, 2007 (AP)— Two explosions rocked Baghdad at midday Wednesday, killing at least 15 people and wounding 19, police said.

Meanwhile, U.S. troops killed five suspects and captured 30 others in a raid in Iraq's western Anbar province, a day after police uncovered 17 decomposing corpses beneath two school yards in the provincial capital.

Amen, Ethard

James Long - I see hate in your post

In the end God will have the last word. And it will be to late to stop and say, " oh God I did not know you were real. God allow us free will and we will all answer to God. Such hate as I see it on this posting is just what the devil enjoys. May we all find peace within the gospel.

I was stunned yesterday when I heard President Bush ask a "loving God" to comfort the family and friends of the victims. I wanted to ask him if this was the same "loving God" who had just allowed the massacre of 32 innocent college students.His speech was so surreal it could easily have been part of a "Twilight Zone Episode!"

Good, bad, indifferent and terrible things happen in the world, but "God" doesn't enter into them, and there is no "God" to know.

Yes, the mental phenomenon of imagining a relationship with a god provides a temporary solace in a time of trouble, as a good martini does at the end of a stressful day.

In the end, though, god-believers might be more secure and happy if they directly confronted the good, bad, indifferent, and terrible things that happen in this purely physical world, without the "aid" of their imagined god.

Just as the tired and frazzled businessman might do well to ease up on the martinis.

Amazing, the number of people here who are able to discern the mind of "god." What frequency do I tune into to hear his thoughts?

Having just reread the conclusion of Job, it is as I remember it. The good bishop's paraphrase is more than a paraphrase of that conclusion. A closer paraphrase would be: "I do not have to answer you; where were you when I made the marvels of the creation? You are speaking without knowledge or respect." In short, Job is left chastised for complaining about something he doesn't understand and questioning the wisdom and power of God. Leaving him there has engendered a lot of commentary, not the least of which is Archibald MacLeish's splendid play, "J.B."

Maybe the reason the theologians were of no help is that the is no solution to the problem of theodicy, and good theologians acknowledge that elemental truth. Theologians are in the business of helping us think about God and God's ways with humankind to the extent that our reason and understanding can take us. They are neither therapists nor problem solvers.

Andy's thinking on this tragedy is the clearest.

Phillip

To address Mr. Collins - yes, he is burning 'in Hell' - along with all of the popes, cardinals, priests, ministers, shamans, and other sociopaths who committed murder throughout history. And worst of all, those who murdered in the name of religion.

This has been happening in Iraq, particularly in Baghdad, every day for years. Where's the outrage? Andy above refers to a "deeply disturbed young man." What about the deeply disturbed Vice President and President of the United States? About Richard Perle? About that coterie of misfits who visit mass murder on whomever, wherever and whenever they please and, though criticized, set themselves up to walk away unpunished, obscenely wealthy, without a twinge of conscience? Now is not the time for prayer and breast-beating. "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in the stars, it is in ourselves." Your admitted failure to find answers to your theodical questions in seminary (par. 1, your statement) should have taught you that.

I have granddaughters in Virgina colleges. I think of them and of the parents of the dead students. I think of the soldiers and parents of dead soldiers in Iraq. I think of dead and dismembered Iraqi civilians.

And I am outraged.
PS: Amen, Bruce.

Why did God let this happen? That is the wrong question. Here’s a better one. Why do people still belive in supernatural nonsense? The Bible was written by primitive men approximately 1700 years before the invention of the flush toilet. It is internally inconsistent and does not comport with reality. Yet millions still believe it and many will say their all-powerful god could have stopped the Virginia Tech massacre but did not because he has granted men free will. In other words, god did not want to interfere with the free will of the gun-wielding maniac. But what about the free will of the 32 students who were massacred and what about the free will of their dessimated friends and family members? Would a loving and merciful god place the free will of a mad man above the free will of all these innocent people? Of course not. So theologians will once again fall back on the inane “God’s mysterious ways” explanation. And as the bloodly bodies are removed from the campus our faith-based president goes on national TV to urge us to fall on our knees and pray to our loving and merciful god. It is absolutely surreal.

jesus hated sin! murder is a sin! not killing, but MURDER! this was murder. why is it all you mamby pamdy, im ok your ok, kumbaya singing wet noodles, think that everything that anyone does is just ok and they will be forgiven. what do you think hell is, a place for a warm vacation. if you believe in God then you must believe in heaven and therefore hell. i hope this piece of crap is burning in hell - with hitler, stalin, mao, and a whole list of others who deserve to be there.

I'm sorry, but I take no responsibility for this act. There is only one person responsible and he is dead.

I pray for his forgiveness the same as I would pray for the souls of the victims.

But to shift the blame away from him to "society" is absurd.

Thank you, Bishop Dixon for your words and insight. You have always been a role model for me. I don't know that you kow it but you "received" me into the Episcopalian Church last year at the Cathedral.

Thanks again.

There are certainly mysteries of life that we cannot understand, but the Virginia Tech massacre is probably not one of them. It is clear that a deeply disturbed young man's inner turmoil turned to blind, murderous rage and that the atrocities he committed were made possible by his access to deadly weapons. All of us who have condoned or accepted violence in thought, speech, entertainment, or government policy or who have supported unrestricted access to tools of violence, have some responsibility for what happened.