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Blessings to you. Thanks be to God

I'm going to try to respond to John Myers and hopefully in turn answer John Helding;

John Myers,

I applaud your search for knowledge, as I'm sure you know, this topic is pretty important. If I may offer my opinion, I am nowhere near learned, but I make an attempt to read as much Bible interpretation on top of my own Bible reading as I can. I've always liked the adage, "Standing on the shoulders of Giants." If you have some free time, I'd encourage a good place to start(or continue) is to listen to a podcast or two(or all) at wayofthemasterradio.com

As for how much of the Bible should be taken literally, I'd say all, with a caveat. Some of the Bible is allegorical, but the ideals and instruction contained in the figurative speech should be taken literally.

Even still, much of the Bible is Historical, which serves for authentication and understanding of God. In the Book of Judges the Bible talks about someone getting their big toes cut off; this is pure History, not a command that we could take literally today; later we find out that king was guilty of cutting off other's toes, and under God-ordained Judges, a toe for a toe was legal. That Covenant is History now, but is still profitable for doctrine and understanding; but not for action.

It is my contention that the Bible is scientifically sound in all ways testable, an impeccable moral map of the human heart, archaeologically proven, prophetically perfect, and Historically tested. I'm sure some skeptic will come along to challenge this, but there is no basis or proof to refute these claims.

As for normalcy; I'm going to take a stab, while I'm not sure I fully understand the question. When speaking of normalcy, do you mean of God or of man? If it is of God, then normalcy equals Righteousness; if of man, then normalcy equals unrighteousmess. The Bible is undoubtedly a supernatural book, because it contains an all encompassing moral standard within a relatively short book, and an interesting read as well. Homosexuality, Heterosexual relationships, Abortion, Capital Punishment, Debt, Forgivness, Love...every major consideration is contained within the pages, but more importantly it does it without saying, "On the matter of love, ...blah,blah,blah..." like most religious texts. God's normal state is perfection, while man's normal state is imperfection. Through the atoning of work of Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God, found through repentance and trust, can man be viewed by God as perfect and be allowed into Heaven.

In Hebrew, letters have a numerical value. The letters in Man(Adam) are valued at 6, the Biblical number for perfection is 7, and Jesus is valued at 8. No matter how hard man tries to become a seven, he'll always be a six. Only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ can man be viewed as perfect.

I'm not sure if that answers your question. Abraham Lincoln once said, “Sir my concern is not whether God is on our side. My great concern is to be on God's side.”

As for differing points of view and the compatibility of scripture; there are things that have been deemed essential and others non-essential. Essential matters concern the nature of God and salvation. This list is actually fairly small;

1.Human beings are sinful and need a Saviour.
2.Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by Him.
3.Jesus was the propitiation for sin, born of a virgin, a sinless offering, He died on the Cross, was dead three days, and defeated death on the third day; whereafter He ascended in full body into Heaven.
4.Jesus Christ is one manifestation of a Trinitarian God; 100% Man and 100% God.
5.Lest a man be born-again he cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
6.Repentance and trust are necessary for salvation.
7.By Grace are you saved through faith, not of yourself: it is the Gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

Of non-essential matters the list is infinite. Water Baptism, predestination, origins, tithing, communion, evangelism, end-times…and these are just a few of the big ones. You can believe that water baptism is necessary to be a good Christian, you may believe that baptism in the Holy Spirit fulfills any requirement for water baptism, not to mention the conundrum of water baptism in the name of the Holy Ghost... The ultimate outcome is that you may find out you were wrong about baptism when you get to Heaven, but it’s not going to keep you from Heaven.

So the compatibility of an opinion to Christianity relates solely to if it will keep you out of Heaven or not. Which is why homosexuality is incompatible, because an unregenerate soul will NOT see Heaven. Also, the Gnostic surge in the early centuries with a resurgent today, which goes against the doctrine of Sola Scriptura(Scripture is Enough), saying that you need extraBiblical input in order to make decisions. The more I examine extraBiblical science, the more I realize that I could have stuck solely with the Bible because science completely and totally backs it up. No doubt there are great people who have done great things without expressly following the Bible, but I believe working from your own experience is a roundabout way to find out the Bible had it right all along.

There is a danger in non-essential items, not that they’ll keep a sanctified person from Heaven, but that in arguing them, unbelievers see the Church as split on issues, and also as you’ve seen with the Episcopal church, when you argue non-essential(and with them, many essential) items, you get caught up in internal fights and don’t have time to defend the essential items against skeptics; which is why it is imperative that we stand together on the essential matters.

I have seen this topic for a few days and have avoided looking at it, as there is usually a significant amount of hate on either end of the topic. I am pleasantly surprised to see the relatively polite conversation here. I would like to add my thoughts. I am not a theological scholar and, to be honest with you, have more questions than answer. Questions like,
-How much of the Bible should be taken literally? Certainly it is important to hold some passages literally in order to understand the spirit of God.
-At what point does a person acknowledge the fundamental (OK, loaded word here) normalcy (or abnormalcy) of a condition.
-At what point does a differing interpretation become incompatible with the overall beliefs?

My answer to these questions as to many others is to look to my own side of the street first. I try to live a life which serves my Lord. Yet I am torn. I do believe that there comes a point when differing interpretation becomes incompatible, but I do not know where that point is. My only request of the Presiding Bishop, and of many other mainstream Episcopalians, is that they offer me MY interpretation without resorting to bigotry. I do not want to stand in the way of anyone worshipping with me, as I do not want to be excluded myself. My experience in the Episcopal church has been that people who believe a certain way are excluded far more than others have been, at least in the recent past.

To Canyon Shearer et al,

I appreciate your concern for me as I hold concern for you and for all of God's souls.

Feeling led to respond and elaborate some on one area -- that of instruction and Spiritual inspiration.

As a Quaker, I am instructed to go to various sources to hear God's instruction. The Bible is one. The life and ministry of Jesus is another. The experience of the living Christ in Meeting is another. The experience and wisdom of my Quaker elders and the 350 years of collective Quaker experience is another. As a faith, we do believe in and have evidence of continuing revelation. In all this, while Quakers believe in and are open to direct inspiration from God, that can only come in community and must be tempered by corporate wisdom and experience. We are not allowed to go it alone -- either in our interpretation of our mystical experiences or in the reading of scripture.

And to the current point, in all that not only have Quakers been led to be pacifists in the deepest sense, but have held up Jesus's ministry of radical inclusion as one of his most high as well. Our discernment of God's will has led us to be at the front of efforts to abolish slavery, to secure equal rights for women, for ethnic minorities, and yes, for sexual orientation minorities. All with in Jesus's command to love one another and his ministry of radical inclusion.

Holding you and your concerns in the light as I pray for clarity for us all in discerning God's will in this matter. Which as with slavery, women's rights, ethnic equality, I have great hope that we will in regards to our gay brothers and sisters.

John Helding,

I hadn't intended to reply again to the homosexual debate, but there is just so much wrong with your post that I feel 'led' to correct you.

I'd like to remind you that all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You quoted 2 Cor 3:6
"For the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life."

I can't imagine this verse being taken any farther out of context. This verse is about the Bible/Scripture being used to show the sinfulness of sin, the fallen-state of man, and the need of a saviour. The letter killeth the soul, you need to die to yourself; but the Bible doesn't save, Christ saves; the Bible can only drive you to Christ.

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

To throw out the Bible and follow the teachings of a man is not the way to Heaven; even if he picks and chooses Bible verses out of context...think Watchtower Society.

If you are relying solely on special-revelation from the Holy Ghost, I would appreciate you writing down what you are told, and faxing it to me so I can staple your experience to the back of my Bible, clearly it is divine and should be included.

And I get from your post that the Spirit has full authority to contradict scripture; ironically that goes 100% against scripture.

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."
"God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged."

You said,
"...Christians relying only on attempts at literally interpreting the Bible..."

What other way is there?

then you said,
"...to see them as a 'good' person and yet feel led by your reading of the Bible to exclude them from full membership in communion."

There is none good but God, no not one.

then,
"yet feel led by your reading of the Bible to exclude them from full membership in communion."

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Your conscience should be screaming at you that you are going against God. If it isn't, it's because you've dulled it to the point of silence. I'd like to challenge you to assure you salvation, and once you have, pray on 2nd Corinthians chapter 4; which I've posted verse 1-4 below, what it says is that while you may be saved, by your distorting and contorting the things of God, you may repulse someone else, or hide the Gospel completely from them.

"Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
2 Cor 4:1-4

John, I'd like you to think about this, because it's important, and I'll leave you with one last thought:
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God." - 1 John 4

John Helding - what a kind man you are.

As to selectively using verses of scripture to support a point, that is something that is available to and used by every side of this debate. The Bible is just that complex and at times contradictory (not to mention translated). As such, reliance alone on such a debating strategy, by any of us, spirals into a meaningless and unwinnable, let alone uninstructive, effort.

Then where do we go for instruction? As a Quaker, I must attend to the living Christ, to the mystical experience of Christ in my worship to inform myself and my collective Meeting. I am also instructed by the words of George Fox, one of Quakerism's founders, 1652:

Dearly beloved Friends, these things we do not lay upon you as a rule or form to walk by, but that all, with the measure of light which is pure and holy, may be guided; and so in the light walking and abiding, these may be fulfilled in the Spirit, not the letter, for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.

And when I, and I dare say most everyone I know who has contact with and knowledge of the lives of Christian gays, moves beyond arguments over printed/translated words and more to the Spirit behind the words, and when we experience the lives of gay Christians, we are instructed by Spirit and by the example of those lives that these friends are faithful.

As such, I feel compassion for Christians relying only on attempts at literally interpreting the Bible to reconcile this issue. For you it must be tough to see and know a gay person, to see them as a 'good' person and yet feel led by your reading of the Bible to exclude them from full membership in communion. I imagine that is troubling for you. And as such, I challenge you to consider going beyond the words to the Spirit behind them. God is speaking to us and not just via the Bible. It is my prayer that if you can reach beyond just the Book, if you can connect with the living Christ, you will be guided to share your love and the fullness of your communion with all believers -- straight and gay.

Jesus came from the Father full of grace and truth. Yes, we should always be gracious to all sinners. Yes, we should also be faithful to speak the truth. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. It reflects a morally bankrupt society. However, I am a sinner also, who also is a product of that same corrupt society. God save us all. May we all repent.

Changing the Tides
see how Islam is being destroyed!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfEIGw8NtNA

"It's not about who's right or wrong. No denomination nailed it yet, and they never will because they're all too self-righteous to realize
that it doesn't matter what you have faith in, just that you have faith. Your hearts are in the right place, but your brains need to wake up.
I have issues with anyone who treats faith as a burden instead of a
blessing." -- Serendipity in "Dogma", by Kevin Smith

The typical liberal push for gay unions

1. Pretend violations of human dignity are at stake, not sexual morality.

2. Take a wide, shallow trip through Gospels. Dig up a relative value and make it absolute for your own purposes

3. Co-opt Christ to your side

4. Set up conservative scarecrow.

5. Self righteously knock it down

6. High Five other liberals because you've remade God into your own image.

To: Jane Holmes Dixon
From: William Booth
Regarding: Why your denomination is in shambles

In answer to your inquiry, I consider that the chief dangers which confront the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, FORGIVENESS WITHOUT REPENTANCE, SALVATION WITHOUT REGENERATION, politics without God, and heaven without hell.

Bishop Dixon,

I'm not a Christian (full disclosure).

I think the arrangement existing until 30 years ago, where the sexual orientation of ordinands was not inquired into or disclosed, was better than the present arrangement, where all concerned sit around and fully indulge their prurient interest in the disclosure of the ordinand's sexuality.

The previous practice was more humane, modest, and respectful of the human person of the ordinand. The current practice is a violation of the natural right of sexual privacy. Where an ordinand is at sexually is simply nobody else's business.

You had no business "wondering about one’s sexuality" (your words) where an ordinand was concerned. When and why did this voyeuristic state of mind come to afflict the Episcopal clergy?

Another point. You wrote: "Gay and lesbian persons who accept the gift of salvation are full participating members of the Body, they are 'all persons and every human being.'"

Not quite right. What you say is true of all gay and lesbians, not merely those who have become Episcopal or some other variety of Christians.

Being a long-time Episcopalian and supporter of all of God's creatures, I found a movie that is helping my church deal (rather than avoid, run, hide) the current debate that's causing such a divide in so many of us. It's called God & Gays: Bridging the Gap and it speaks to what we're all going through really well. It helped me with perspective, to see why the humanity and the spirituality in this "issue" is what's key. I hope you'll join me in watching the movie, sharing it and allowing it to help guide us to what so many seek...reconciliation (www.godandgaysthemovie.com)