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Colvin and Moggridge
http://www.sangres.com/np/sanddunes/index.htm

In response to this statement: "It is our hope to tell the story of this major change in church teaching."

If Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, then how in the world can the teachings of His Church change? The obvious answer is that His teachings cannot change and since we only know His teachings through the teachings of the Church, then consequently, the further the Episiple Church drifts from the teachings passed down from the apostles and their successors, the more they descend into error. (1 Tim 3:15.)

The old testament says that it is the seed of a woman who will crush the Satan's head. The woman has not been given a lesser role by God. A society which does not respect woman will put on themselves only dishonour and shame.Pakistan has a long way to go it should pass laws that respect women.

BGone:"Come now ananymous. God created Adam, a man and then from HIM God created woman, Eve. OK, God didn't get it straight the first time so HE created a second woman. Lilith is her name? I trust whoever came up with that story has film to back it up."

Actually, depending on which version of the legend you believe, Eve might have been wife #3. Lilith, the first, wanted to be in the dominant position when she and Adam had sex, so she got kicked out. God then created Wife #2 while Adam watched, but he was so repulsed by seeing all the blood and goo and stuff that he refused her. So God knocked out Adam and created Eve.

For Mommadona,

The "Lilith" story, as a great deal of others, comes out of ancient Sumeria, exactly where the two man/woman creation legends come from. Many Sumerian references occur as "she" was a personified goddess of the matriarchal traditions, not a real person. Neither was Eve, Adam, Cain (this is Cannanite legend) or Abel, etc. etc. The "A'birus" (hebrew) practically invented "historical fiction", that is putting in real people in fake circumstances (Jonah might be a good example of this) or fake people in real circumstances (the Jesus myth). It is a great way to tell a tale, if only people are in on it. Unfortunately, people have lost the "mythopoeic" keys to understanding what is being conveyed, taking things literally or with complete disdain.

ANONYMOUS
"The character of Eve is a source of interest of mine. Ever since I got old enough to realize men blame women for their perceived transgressions, I've been pondering Eve. I was especially piqued by finding out there was another mate of Adam's, Lilith, who strangely enough was left out of the 'official' Torah. No one's mentioned her on here. I'd love to hear your viewpoint on Lilith.

Posted January 22, 2007 8:15 PM"

LILITH didn't go for the "separate, but equal" bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

Late medieval Jewish legend portrays her as the first wife and equal of Adam. Considering Adam inferior, Lilith left the Garden of Eden of her own free will (Other stories claim Lilith refused to lie under Adam, as she considered that this was too submissive). Adam then bade three angels to find Lilith and bring her back. When Lilith refused, God punished her by commanding that she slay 100 of her children, called Lilin, each day. Lilith is also sometimes considered to be the paramour of Satan.[citation needed]

And no sooner do I mention my childhood faith as a member of the Episcopal Church, than God brings me to you Right Reverend Dixon. I am honored. To paraphrase your contribution to this panel and to tie in with popular culture, Actress Ali Later of Heros says in Character "What do you need God for when you have me?". It is a corruption of a woman's role as part of a man's complete life. A short circuit of faith. As Bonnie Tyler sang a long time ago, a Total Eclipse of the Heart.

Once upon a time I was falling in love
But now I'm only falling apart
There's nothing I can do
A total eclipse of the heart
Once upon a time there was light in my life
But now there's only love in the dark
Nothing I can say
A total eclipse of the heart

Man and woman get lost in each others eyes. We sometimes forget that it is the Thought, the Word, our God that counts. The gift is only an embodiment within the Gift of Life itself. Opposites attract. Man completes woman, woman completes man and then there is a total spectrum of gender assignment and roles between the two. Clearly, the biological plan is man and woman but we must learn to accept and ideally love as neighbors, all of God's Diversity that arises from the Union of man and woman. God Bless you Right Reverend Dixon. God Bless you and yours in Light, Truth, Beauty, Love, and Wisdom. Always amen.

AA, I heard numbers as high as 882 different "sacred" scriptures. Only 72 of them were included in the Bible and we can suppose they were selected because they were "sort of" compatible with each other. The Gospels are clearly redundant but fail to agree on many things. And those other Gospels that were supposed to be burned that keep surfacing disagree even more.

Heck, I agree with you. You don't need a sermon.

BGONE,
There's a lot more literature out there than just what was compressed into the 'official' version. And if you can't read between the lines....

Come now ananymous. God created Adam, a man and then from HIM God created woman, Eve. OK, God didn't get it straight the first time so HE created a second woman. Lilith is her name? I trust whoever came up with that story has film to back it up.

Why don't you use Mickey and Minnie. There's a lot of film on them.

In reading some of these On Faith entries, I wonder about men who try to write about women. It's one thing to do as Sam Harris did & quote from sources, but I'm frankly doubtful that men can have much personal understanding of someone who's so different from them. I for instance, would not presume to say I understand a man from a man's point of view. I'm glad women such as you are offering points of view on this subject question.

The character of Eve is a source of interest of mine. Ever since I got old enough to realize men blame women for their perceived transgressions, I've been pondering Eve. I was especially piqued by finding out there was another mate of Adam's, Lilith, who strangely enough was left out of the 'official' Torah. No one's mentioned her on here. I'd love to hear your viewpoint on Lilith.

Jon Matthew, I have a question. I can't seem to recall the name of the fellow there in the Garden taking all that down. Could you help me please? That wasn't the same holy person that heard God say, "let there be light" an dutifully recorded it?

I understan Mel Gibson has film made at the time but you know how busy he is. Have you seen the film? I'm eager to hear what God looks like. Some are saying God's a bearded old man but seems to me that's disputed.

Here's my problem. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul has OFFICIAL pictures of God, man on fire, man getting hot foot and just plain ball of fire. Since you know all about what happened to Eve in the Garden of Eden then maybe you would be so kind and share with us the true description of God. Thank you in advance.

Pilate, you bring up a good point. Has anyone ever decided if Mary did floors and windows? Both Maria and Marta do [floors and windows].

"God did not make death, and he does not delight in the death of the living. . . It was through the devil's envy that death entered the world" (Wis 1:13; 2:24).

As St. Irenaeus says, "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143

DIXON: As Christians we revere Mary, the mother of Jesus; in fact we call her “the God bearer.”

Yup, she was pretty much barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.
The Christian Ideal.

If we rejected these fairy tales altogether women might still have difficulties in fully asserting their rights. However, at least this status quo would not be afforded some sort of "moral" or "holy" status that it does not deserve, and that would be an improvement.

Bishop Dixon,

You write: "As Christians we revere Mary, the mother of Jesus..."

Growing up, my impression was that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a sort of stage prop, necessary to get the play's action moving, but lacking any real, personal, human substance - a mere cardboard cutout of a human figure.

Wouldn't Christians be better off today if they instead had really revered Mary Magdalene, Jesus's companion and the mother of their daughter, Sara?

If that Mary had been the one revered, women in the church today might really have some institutional respect.

"male and female God created them."

And that's before you get into the tricky problem of using "Elohim" for God. I've had some great conversations on the whole early polytheism and El thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

There are three retired Episcoplians on this board as I write this -- Dixon, Spong and Anderson. (Maybe the Church has rules against their active clergy participating, I don't know.) But this symbolizes some of its problems. Episcopalians are a well-educated group, and in modern times education strongly correlates with a low birth rate.

I read on one board that the the average Episcopalian is something like 60 years old. It is demographically challenged. Episcopalians have few babies. This obviously reduces the number of cradle members, and also the adults who driven into church when babies arrive (common among young adults).

Personally, I think that Church's only real option (other than changing into a fundamentalist-type thing) is to become extremely liberal on dogma. Yes, they are losing members over things like gay bishops, but they're gaining other former Catholics.

Hi Ms. Dixon,

Still reading those crystal balls, aren't you, you wild crazy woman?

Hey, I dig Eve, apples, fertile crescents, moon over the Kasbha (you with me?) -- this I believe in. It's all about moving the species forward -- if I'm reading you -- I'm moving with you for sure. . . God bless the forbidden fruit, (sin, please, a little doesn't hurt!), and most of all you. You never give it up without a little joi d'vive, do you? Um Hum.

I love you. (Call me.)

Bob