All Comments (29)

Rafael,

Thank you for being patient enough with me to explain your perspective. I have no problem with YOU rejecting my central assumption.

I still have a problem with Mr. Anderson, however. He claims to be a Christian, so I would like him to tell me whether or not he believes in a caring and purposive creator. I know I haven't connected for you - a logical skein that leads from my central assumption to my conclusion about an afterlife.

For us, this argument can only continue in the hypothetical...if there is a caring and purposive creator, how is that caring and purpose reflected in the general (and specific)human condition? I think this question is a fair jumping off point for all those who would like to consider themselves both Deists and logical thinkers.

Your assumptions are questionable. I do not see his answer as evasive or as a non-answer, so I am free to see it as a graceful exit.

Your logic is also a little backward. It seems to go something like this: the fact that life experiences vary implies that there must be afterlife experiences to equalize everyone to the same level. Again, your assumptions are questionable. We have no evidence for a caring and purposive creator. You make that assumption, it seems, based on its necessity for the equalizing outcome. Without that assumption, the argument falls apart.

Yet another questionable assumption: I don't believe in a caring and purposive creator. I thought that would be apparent from my posts. So, I haven't been non-committal about anything.

Keep the assumptions rolling!

Rafael,

You are characterizing his evasive non-answer to a direct question as a graceful exit?

Do you believe in a Creator who is both caring and purposive? Consider then that human bodies die: some at the end of a long and pleasant life; others, not so much. The vast amount of space between these extremes is one of the chief reasons many people believe in reincarnation.

I believe the most important thing about any of us is how much we grow - in wisdom and godly insight - as a direct result of our life's experiences. I cannot comprehend a caring and purposive deity that would forever deny others less fortunate in mortal lifespan and wordly circumstance a similar or suitably compensating opportunity as I have been thus far afforded.

I assume you, like Mr. Anderson believe in God, as do I. Tell me: How it is that your God and Mr. Anderson's God can justly abide the good and bad extremes of individual fortune? Most of the world's religions "stoop" to the dogma of an afterlife, perhaps because it answers my question. Naturally, most atheists don't, but that is a logical extension of their primary belief. You and Mr. Anderson, (He, a self-labeled Christian!) seem to think you get style and wisdom points for being noncommittal on this issue.

Gerwitz,

You don't win, any more than Pascal thought he did. Pascal's wager, which you propose anew, is a silly proposition that selectively ignores most of its problems. See the wikipedia post on it to learn about why it falls apart under scrutiny. Here is the one I like:

"Assumes that the correct god is worshipped and is not vengeful.
Since there are many religions, especially throughout history, and therefore many alleged gods, it is impossible to determine which one to worship based on the wager. Hence there is a high probability of worshipping the wrong god, which could be severely punished if a god exists who is vengeful."

You might lose bigger than me if you've picked the wrong one! And there are so many to choose from...

Why not focus all your energy on doing all the good you can in this life without worrying about hedging your bets on the next one?

I just have one thing to say to all of you who think that God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Religion, etc., are fakes. If there is one last thing you will ever open your mind to from a born again Christian, then PLEASE listen.

Lets just say that I am wrong about my beliefs and what the Bible says. There is no God, there is no point to religion, and when we die, nothing will happen. We will be reincarnated, or we will go to Heaven due to our good works, and we all will be happy. Guess what...we both win. I will not be suffering in Hell, so theres nothing I have to worry about. BUT...ask yourself this. What if I'm right? Ever think about that? If I'm right, the I will be spending the rest eternity with my Lord and Savior...but what about you? Either way, I win...but do you have that same security? Instead of getting all mad at God, how bout u get rid of your bias and see what God has to say.

Your article was god, but it bothers me that you call yourself a Christian, yet you say you know nothing about the after life. You bring up that example of getting married, and that you never really know if you made the right decision until after everything is over and done with. Only then will you know if what you did was right, at least thats what it sounded like to me. It sounds like you don't believe in absolutes, but part of being a Christian is believeing in what Christ stood for. Thats why your a "Christ"ian. If your a true Christian, you believe in what Jesus did for you...His death, burial, and resurection to Heaven, and if you put the pieces together, that points to an afterlife. When we die, we will go to one of 2 places, period. I apologize if I've interpreted this article wrong...I guess to me it sounded like you aren't too sure about thigs.

Ryan Haber:

You seem to be twisting definitions and misunderstanding at least one thing I wrote. If you'll look up definitions of dogma, they don't include things like a belief that my bedroom floor will continue to support me. These beliefs are based on evidence. They are not dogmas. They are not asserted without evidence, and they are not held beyond questioning. The fact that they are not questioned on a daily basis has a different meaning from saying something is beyond question.

It is reasonable to connect the dogmatism Stephen asserts toward James Anderson with the dogmatism he professes toward his co-worker. Clearly a Unitarian would not characterize the message of his church in the way Stephen did, so it is reasonable to think that he is not listening.

I didn't say anything about only atheists benefitting from technology. In fact, just the opposite. Please read more carefully before responding.

From the repeated claim that atheists have faith in the absence of god, I am beginning to believe that belief is tied inextricably to a failure of logic. One cannot have evidence that something does not exist, so one cannot be held to a standard of evidence for its non-existence. There is no evidence that Thor, Zeus, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or an infinite number of other supernatural inventions for which we have no evidence do not exist. It is non-sensical to say I must have faith in Thor's non-existence in the same sense that someone else might have faith the he does exist.

Are you an Athorist? Is our only difference that I believe in one god less than you do?

If there is an "already established fact" that god exists, I'm not aware of the evidence. Unless you have some to offer, your faith goes back to what I described (and what countless others have as well, some even believers) that faith is a belief in the absence of evidence. Really, look it up.

RYAN HABER: It be fake religious teaching ideas beliefs which( even )when done in best intention as meant inspire,is still but brainwasing,which have little value in true spiritual development. True it keep the fire a smouldering, yet being one very short changed,as give little spiritual value ...As example putting jesus on such a high pedestal *son of GOD *Born of Virgin, non can match the virgin son,all not accep jesus,as the supreme, spiritual truth...(being evil)... Such foolishness having blocked teachings of others, many whom came with more blessing than as given unto jesus.Hundreds of years of development,as lost,growth greatly stunted by stupidity.Most at fault those lusting the material,spinning ever a web of deciet,seeking not enlightenment, only that of material empowerment... .. .

Rafael,

We all have dogmas - beliefs that (at least for a time) go unquestioned. I doubt you reconsidered the sturdiness of your bedroom floor before you set foot upon it and hopped out of bed this morning. You also believe (from your experience) that your mother loves you, or hates you, or doesn't care about you at all - and nothing I could ever say, even if I presented to you objective facts (say, how she bakes you cookies) will change your mind, because you KNOW her. You also take the reality of gravity for certain, even if you don't know the algebraic equations to describe its force upon falling objects.

Are you being unreasonable to take those things for certain? Not at all.

"Perhaps your inability to hear the message of your Unitarian co-worker is another reflection of the hold this dogmatism has on your ability to empathize."

Perhaps. Or Stephen might be very empathetic. How can you know that Stephan is unempathetic? Are you making a connection between dogma and unempathy? Is that connection always true? Is THAT your dogma?

Whyever should only atheists benefit from "the progress of technology" or be interested in making technological progress? Surely you must know of the great architectural technological developments that mark the Middle Ages? You know that Gregor Mendel, father of genetic sciences, was a Catholic monk (and a very faithful one)? You know that Copernicus was a devout Catholic?

"And atheists certainly don't proclaim faith in anything, they simply accept reality without the need to dress it up in a supernatural passion play."

No, they DO proclaim a faith, without evidence, that there is no God. What if there were a God who simply did not care to make Himself known to us, as the Deists claimed? Is a lack of evidence the same things as evidence for not?

Again, what if there are realities that transcend mere laws of nature (even a human soul, for instance)? Isn't it dressing it up (or dressing it down?) to pretend that such things aren't what they are?

"Faith is belief in the absence of evidence."

That's what the faithless atheists say. It's a cheap caricature, and like most caricatures, not even very accurate. Christians, taking a moment to think, have never really said that. Faith is trusting confidence of what is hoped for - in this case, God's good plan for us. Faith is not that God exists, but is only predicated on the already-established fact that he does exist. Faith is impossible for an atheist, but someone might believe there is a God and have no faith in him whatsoever. I've known people like that, and there is nothing hypothetical about it at all.

Stephen:

Sounds to me like he is making a graceful exit from the pool of dogmatic certainty that characterizes most of the scripture-based religions. Hopefully when you reach his age you will achieve similar wisdom. Perhaps your inability to hear the message of your Unitarian co-worker is another reflection of the hold this dogmatism has on your ability to empathize.

It's not just atheists that benefit from the progress of technology--I assume from your post that you are not a Luddite, living in a cave? And atheists certainly don't proclaim faith in anything, they simply accept reality without the need to dress it up in a supernatural passion play. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence. Your definition seems confused at best.

Mr. Andersen,

I am also disappointed with your answer. Are you saying that we should all aspire to live a loving, caring life and not worry about what, if anything, comes next? What do you have faith in? An atheist proclaiming faith in the progress of technology and modern social governance at least has something to profess. You are like my co-worker who goes to a Unitarian church. He tells me that they believe in doing good things - because doing good things are good things to do. Seems like you're still in the shallow end of the theological pool.

Mr. James Anderson,

JESUS(A.S.) in Islam:

Jesus (Isa) A.S. in Islam, and his Second Coming
by Mufti A.H. Elias
I. Jesus (A.S.) In Islam
Muslims do believe that Isa (A.S.) was sent down as a Prophet of Allah (God), but he (Jesus) is not God or Lord, nor the son of God. Muslims do not believe that Isa (A.S.), also known as Jesus by Christians and others, is dead or was ever crucified. We believe that he was raised to heaven and is there, and will descend at the appointed time, end all wars, and bring peace to the world. Like Jesus (A.S.), Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is also a Prophet and Messenger. Muhammed (P.B.U.H.) is the last Prophet, though, and there is none after him. Hence, Islam is the last religion, complete, with the Holy Qur'an as the unchanged and perfect word of God for over 1400 years, AS GOD PROMISED TO PRESERVE IT TILL THE LAST DAY FOR ALL OF HUMANKIND, UNLIKE SACRED TEXTS OF OTHER RELIGIONS WHICH HAVE MULITPLE VERSIONS AND ARE "REVISED" PERIODICALLY BY MAN. God, or Allah in Arabic, is Divine and Supreme Being and Creator.
What the Holy Qur'an says about Jesus:
They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157)
Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) himself told of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). In the Bible, Jesus (A.S.) says,
IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS. AND I WILL PRAY TO THE FATHER AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER THAT HE MAY ABIDE WITH YOU FOREVER.
(Bible, John 14-15/16)

BUT WHEN THE COMFORTER IS COME, WHOM I WILL SEND UNTO YOU FROM THE FATHER, EVEN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, WHICH PROCEEDETH FROM THE FATHER, HE SHALL TESTIFY OF ME, AND HE ALSO SHALL BEAR WITNESS, BECAUSE YE HAVE BEEN WITH ME FROM THE BEGINNING.
(Bible, John 15-26/27)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the spirit of Truth will come, he will guide you into all truth, FOR HE SHALL SPEAK NOT OF HIMSELF, BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, that he shall speak, AND HE WILL SHOW YOU THINGS TO COME. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you.
(Bible, John 16-12/14)
Ulema (learned scholars in Islam) have said that the person who is described by Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) to come after him - in the above verse - does not comply with any other person but Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him).
In this case, the "comforter" he mentions is none other than Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and his laws and way of life (Shariah) and Book (Holy Qur'an) are those that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) asks his followers to abide by.
THE "PERSON" WHOM JESUS (A.S.) PROPHECISED WILL COME AFTER HIM, IS CALLED PARGALEETA IN THE BIBLE . THIS WORD WAS DELETED BY INTERPRETERS AND TRANSLATORS AND CHANGED AT TIMES TO "SPIRIT OF TRUTH" AND AT OTHER TIMES, TO "COMFORTER" AND SOMETIMES "HOLY SPIRIT." THE ORIGINAL GREEK AND ITS MEANING IS "ONE WHOM PEOPLE PRAISE EXCEEDINGLY." THE SENSE OF THE WORD, THEN, IS APPLICABLE TO THE WORD MUHAMMAD IN ARABIC, SINCE MUHAMMAD MEANS "THE PRAISED ONE."
Jesus (A.S.) also says in the Bible,
... AND A LITTLE WHILE AND YOU SHALL NOT SEE ME; AND AGAIN A LITTLE WHILE, YOU SHALL SEE ME BECAUSE I GO TO THE FATHER.
(Bible, John 16:16)
... and the Holy Qur'an says,
And surely they slew him not. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself.
(Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157-158)
As such, Muslims believe that Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) was raised to heaven. According to Hadith, he is on the second heaven. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam=Peace be upon him) mentioned, "During the Meraj (Ascension), I met Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) on the second heaven. I found him of medium stature, reddish white. His body was so clean and clear, that it appeared as though he had just performed ghusal (ablution, cleansing of the entire body) and come." In another Hadith, Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) mentioned to the Jews that, " Hadhrat Isa (A.S.) is not dead, he will most surely return to you before Qiyamat (the Day of Judgement)."
May Allah Guide all people to the Truth. Aameen.

Mr. James Anderson,

HOLY BIBLE (Muslim Point of View)

To all fella’s no offense and with all due respect, in Bible word trinity is not even mentioned. Even name BIBLE is not mentioned inside book. In Roman Latin language Bible means book. The closest explanation saying that Holly Ghost, Spirit and Father is one is taken out/removed from the Bible in its latest versions/new additions explained by more than 50 High Priests of Church that it was not mentioned in the most ancient scripts and was a concoction, addition, fabrication in the translations.
More than 50% of the Bible is written by Paul who hardly met once the to Jesus (A.S.) in his life time. Then written by Luke, Mathew and John. And very small part of it is said by Jesus (A.S.) him self. (You can refer to red Bible).
Where Qur’an is the word only that Mohammed (P.B.U.H.) heard and not every thing he said. (Refer to my previous mail Jesus in Islam)
-What Mohammed (PBUH) said other than what he HEARS is called HADITH and is not part of Quran (Muslim Bible). And we also found concoctions in hadith but thousands are preserved and original.
-And what disciples of Mohammad(PBUH) said is even not considered as religious scripture or part of it unlike Christian Bible. It is kept totally separate for other references. I’m not saying Muslims don’t believe in Juses(A.S), they do, and also believe in Original Bible, if there are any proofs of original scriptures of Bible which were in Nazarian language and not in Greek or Latin.

To Mr. James Anderson,

PROOF OF GOD (Scientific Evidence)

I liked your note Gerry its reason vs superstition and not Islam Vs Christianity or others. For you i advise to see below comments of mine.
Rick, you asked about Hell and Havens and told about population comparison. For you my dear, we are only responsible for our own actions. At the end good deeds and bad deeds were never rewarded equally and never will be(though in appearance you find injustice), logic tells! My believe tells i have the responsibility to seek KNOWLEDGE of world as well to reach the truth, other wise i will left ingorant and end up in hell. (If you are sincere enough you will find the answer of ALL the questions that hinders you and create doubts- ANSWERS ARE ALL OUT THERE!!)
Steve Holgate, dear you talk about lack of scientific proof, I suggest you to also read below comments carefully!!!

Opinions are made upon understanding and certain knowledge, which differ from person to person. For some God is a myth, for some they believe or want to believe according to their religion and for some He is as real as His creation. Below are few examples in the favor of their belief:

For Muslims Big Bang Theory is not something new, it is more than 1400 years old, revealed in their Holy Book along with more than 1000 other scientific facts which are happened to be established recently in couple of centuries. And the answers of so many confusing questions which keep us going astray throughout our lives. AND AS A FACT MUSLIMS KNOW THEY WERE REVEALED BEFORE DISCOVERED AND FURTHER ON TOP OF IT THAT NOT A SINGLE VERSE OF THEIR HOLY BOOK IS IN CONFLICT WITH ANY LOGICAL/SCIENTIFIC APPROACH (INFECT EVERY TIME SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES PROVIDING PROOF IN FAVOR OF THE LAST REVELATIONS), MAKE THEM MORE FOCUSED / PRACTICING /FUNDAMENTALIST OR WHAT EVER OTHERS THINK ABOUT THEM and made it very easy for them to reach to the conclusion...SIMPLY APPLY THE SCIENTIFIC RULE OF PROBABILITY....What if 80% of Qur’an is in conformation with 100% of Science and 20% of it is beyond humans comprehension then logic says it would be also correct, if not now then in future...IF YOU UNDERSTAND PORBABILITY RULE THEN ITS NOT A JOKE !!), very few examples out of All from the Holy book as proof,

I have created all the creatures from earth and all the living beings are made out of water (Chapter 21) (living being which are meant to die/perish)
Don’t you see the earth and sky was together and I separated them, still you don’t believe
(Chapter 21)
I have created sky upon earth for your protection and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
All the stars, moon and sun are floating in their skies
(Chapter 21)
All the skies are holding with out pillars and there is sign for you
(Chapter 21)
And the world is expanding. (it is also said in Qur’an I guess in Sura Nisa)

For Muslims God means (The One, Ultimate Creator, Who is Uncreated and above time always present before and after time and beyond our limited level of comprehension)

Below is the TOUCH STONE of God that He revealed in Holy Book, when the question about God was raised:
1- He is One and Only
2-the Eternal, Absolute;
, the eternally Besought of all! on Whom all depend.
3-He begets not, nor is He begotten.
4-And there is none comparable unto Him.
And none is like Him.

Mr. James Anderson,

I'm posting three post on following topics.
As a devoted Christian I would like to have your comments, if possible.

- Proof of God (In the light of Scientific Evidence)

- Holy Bible (Muslim point of view)

-Jesus (A.S.) in Islam

B. Regards

HAVE you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as
your Lord and Personal Savior?!?!?! Well a-MEN,
brothers n sisters, just dial the number on
that screen in front of yew, and give our
operator your visa or mastercard number and
the amount that you wish to donate! God's Crusade
depends on YOU, my people, you MUST give!

Jesus is my buddy
Jesus is my pal
and if you don't believe
in Je-sus
then you can goto HAL

(HAL, the computer. Get it? Wink wink, nudge
nudge)

Speaking AS a heathen, which I am often prone
to do, I've discovered over the years that I'm
fairly suspicious of just about anybody in
the organized religion business, especially
since that guy tried to hit me up for 300 bucks.
Turns out he's a hacker, too, so in case you're
reading this, buddy, how's it going, pay that
child support yet? LOL

Any-way, back to bidness, and oh boy, Jesus, Inc.
is BIG business, millions and billions of dollars
indeedy, what they do with the money, however,
remains a public mystery. IS there life after
death? Do you think giving a religious organization your money will change that answer?
Reading from a little book?

In the event that you ARE a bona-fide xtian,
then it's all summed up in a sentence: By
grace ye are saved through faith, and not
of works.... you don't have to buy anything, you don't have to do anything, you either buy the story, or you don't. If you don't, well, maybe you don't get into the Ultimate Gated Community, but you also get to keep your money in the interim...

Interesting points above. I think that the problem religions suffer from, in general, is a belief that humanity is somehow at the center of the universe. We may have a purpose, but it's probably one of many purposes. (Of course the true believers would argue that even the existence of stars and other planets can be an illusion given to us by the Creator. I don't believe that, personally).

We may have a relationship with a Creator. We may serve a purpose in some grander scheme. The Creator may want to have a relationship with us for unknown reasons. But it's also possible, probably perhaps, that our own existence is not the focal point of a Creator's plan.

As for calling early Christianity a "scheme," I'd hardly agree to that. The only thing that very early Christianity led to was persecution and death. I don't think there's any question that the early Christians, who were eaten by lions, actually and deeply believed in the resurrection.It was their unyielding faith that broadened the respect for the religion within Rome.

Since then the religion may have taken on geopolitical connotations (the crusades, etc) that are questionable. But I don't question that absolute devotion of the early Christians.

Interesting points above. I think that the problem religions suffer from, in general, is a belief that humanity is somehow at the center of the universe. We may have a purpose, but it's probably one of many purposes. (Of course the true believers would argue that even the existence of stars and other planets can be an illusion given to us by the Creator. I don't believe that, personally).

We may have a relationship with a Creator. We may serve a purpose in some grander scheme. The Creator may want to have a relationship with us for unknown reasons. But it's also possible, probably perhaps, that our own existence is not the focal point of a Creator's plan.

As for calling early Christianity a "scheme," I'd hardly agree to that. The only thing that very early Christianity led to was persecution and death. I don't think there's any question that the early Christians, who were eaten by lions, actually and deeply believed in the resurrection.It was their unyielding faith that broadened the respect for the religion within Rome.

Since then the religion may have taken on geopolitical connotations (the crusades, etc) that are questionable. But I don't question that absolute devotion of the early Christians.

At least 10 billion human beings have lived in this planet during the last 20000 years and there is not a single indisputable evidence of one them coming from the other side to confirm that there is life after death. Repeat: no indisputable evidence. Near death experiences, ghost, etc. all can be explained by natural causes. Faith? Ok. If you believe you believe but unless you can supply evidence (that is not the same as faith) all you can do is literature. Ah. The resurrection thing about Jesus can't be confirmed by third parties. Sorry. I only have the word of a bunch of guys that lived 2000 years ago, and that were interested parties in the scheme.

Undisclosed for Now,

A lot of your questions are very interesting. Without at all intended to brush them off, I want to get right to one of your last points, because it is the most interesting, and the only one for which I think I have a solid answer.

"But then who created the creator? I think it's probably beyond our ability as sentient beings to actually understand this."

Hmm... yes and no.

The "No" first. Everything we experience in the world has a beginning. Each thing also has a progenitor, a what-brought-it-about. This progenitor is of a similar nature as its creation but is a distinct, separate thing. Two examples will clarify:

(ex 1, from nature) Parents are distinct and separate from their offspring, because they had a full existence all on their own before they ever begot their offspring. Yet the offspring has certain things in common with its parents, e.g., its species, perhaps its coloring, etc.

(ex 2, from craft) A carpenter exists before the table he crafts. He has an existence independent of what he has crafted. Yet, having crafted it, we can inspect it and see characteristic marks of his handiwork. One table might be moulded a certain way, and another be entirely without moulding. One table might be smooth and carefully sanded, while another one crude and plain. If we knew tables well enough, and the carpenters, we should be able to guess which carpenter made which table. They have something in common. The table turns out in a way that reflects somehow the mind and skill of its crafter.

So, what has the Creator of the Universe to do with the Universe Created? Well, what the Creator must have in common are characteristics found in the Universe. What distinguishes the two must be time-frame (among other things); the Creator came before the Universe, and existed/s independently, outside of it. If the Creator came from someplace, then Whatever-Created-It must be outside of and beyond that creator as well. Ultimately, the First Thing to do any creating has to be the sort of thing that wasn't created, but just always was.

So why can we not say that the Universe "just always was"? Simply because the material universe is only a composite of its parts, and none of its parts "just always was." Each came from someplace, and so all must have come from someplace. It's creator must be entirely outside of it, and separated from it by its kind of being. The Universe (and its parts) has the kind of being that comes into existence, changes, and loses existence; its Creator must have a sort of existence that doesn't do any of those things.

Now for the "Yes", how I agree with your statement to an extent. All of this is not Christianity. It is Aristotle, and fairly good common sense. It tells us something, but and an important something at that. But it's not much, you're right. If the Creator is infinite (that's a separate discussion) and we are finite, we should not expect to be able to understand the Creator all the way. It's something like how we understand our pet Black Lab better than he understands us.

Herein lies the unique position of the monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. They contain overlapping (and sometimes contradictory) claims that this Infinite and Transcendent Creator, who is much more unlike us than like us, has willed to reveal itself to us. The Creator has revealed a good deal, in fact, each of those religions claims for the purpose of allowing us to enter into some sort of personal relationship with it. Personal here means only "between two persons" (don't bring in Evangelical Christian connotations here, that's not what I mean).

If their claims are correct, even only partly, and even only of one of those religions, it's still thunderous, isn't it?! The Creator of the Universe wants to have a person-to-person relationship with one of its creatures. Wow!

Sure worth a double take.

Luther,

Well, left to our own experience, either by the experimental method or by personal encounter, you are right: we cannot have practical knowledge of what happens to the soul after death. Experimental knowledge does not reach to the realm of the immaterial, and personal encounter, well, hasn't encountered what comes after until, well, one goes on. Since none on this blog at least have gone on, we have no way of knowing by our own experience what comes after death.

Happily, we are not limited in knowing by our own experience alone. Most of what we "know" we very reasonably take on the authority of those who "know better" and have no reason to lie to us. I've never gone all the way around the world, nor have I seen it from outer space; yet I take it on authority that world is indeed round. And altogether lacking personal experience, I have no reason to doubt it.

Our Lord Jesus Christ DID die and return from the dead. If one recognizes Him as one's Lord, then one has already given Him trust; lacking personal experience, there is no reason to doubt His word on the matter.

If one does not recognize Him as one's Lord, or at least as being trustworthy, then one needn't give two figs about anything He said. And for that matter, having no personal experience either, such a person would best keep altogether silent on the issue. It would be better to say, "I have no knowledge of what comes after death," than to say, "NO HUMAN BEING KNOWS WHETHER THERE IS LIFE BEYOND DEATH!" because that is precisely the point in contention.

If Jesus is Lord, and He has died and risen, then your statement isn't true at all, and then there is reason to hope for heaven. But people who know nothing of Jesus as Lord know nothing one way or the other of life after death, either.

I respect your agnosticism on this subject much more than materialism, coincidentally.

I think I understand, and agree with the Reverend's answer. This is what I think:

I struggle very much with this idea. I had major surgery last year. There were no visions, just darkness. I was awake, asleep in blackness, and awake again. But I didn't have my heart stop beating,or my brain functions cease. Still, one wonders about that...

But then, and I was thinking about this for other reasons, I had a remarkably vivid dream about my Grandmother. She has late-stage Alzheimer's, and can't talk or chew. One could argue that she is almost among the living dead (she occasionally smiles and still loves music, so she's definitely still alive). Anyway, I saw a young grandmother--far younger than she was from my childhood and a young grandfather (he is still alive, but will likely die with/right after my Grandmother passes). They were happy, and enjoying themselves. Others in my family have been "visited" by dead relatives in dreams. And while not strictly dead, my experience was an interesting one.

But is it a figment of my brain? Am I subconsciously looking for comfort? That is certainly possible.

But then, on the other side, there's de ja vu. Been here before. Clearly remember something in the present that I knew about in the past. That happens semi-frequently with me.

I think it's an open question. I hope the answer is yes. I kind of lean that way. But I'm not positive.

And there's the technique--which I have tried--of meditating and being somewhere else, while your body remains in place. Writers use this technique a lot. But I never see my own body in the present when I do that.

There's also the issue of time. It seems certain to us. But if there are billions (trillions?) of lives and they each have their own unique time-line, then it really is infinite.

And finally, the existence of the big bang--and the fact that we can actually look millions of years into the past through telescopes is interesting. Who made the first two atoms? At least with our ability to think, there's no other explanation for that than a creator. But then who created the creator? I think it's probably beyond our ability as sentient beings to actually understand this. Perhaps we will learn in the future, but for now I don't understand. I believe, but I don't understand.

Great article!

The TRUTH? NO HUMAN BEING KNOWS WHETHER THERE IS LIFE BEYOND DEATH!

This answer was an unequivocal yes... and no.

A "Yes" or "No" somewhere in your answer would have been nice; some would even venture out on a limb and announce it would be appropriate. Nevertheless, your answer does speak volumes on why the Episcopal Church is waning: you, one of its very otherwise-intelligent priests, seem incapable of answering a simple question with an intelligible answer. If you are a priest, I assume you are a Christian (or would that assumption errantly impose on you a to-be-avoided-at-all-costs "statement of beliefs" that you'd find (I hope this is the appropriate word) confining?) If you do consider yourself a Christian (as I would expect of one who describes himself as "on the journey of Christian discipleship") I would hope you know that Jesus the Christ Himself promises you eternal life if you try your best to keep His commandments, as you understand them to the best of your ability. Remember - on His cross, Jesus promised the Good Thief that he would be in Paradise that very day with Jesus: was Jesus lying to the Good Thief? If you honestly do not know, I suggest that your intellectual pride is barring you from humbly admitting you don't and can't ever intellectually know everything - give up such a quixotic quest and place your intellect at the service of Jesus, to be led by the Holy Spirit from now on. There are many things that one can come to know only by first believing (trusting) completely that Jesus Christ does tell us the Truth (through the Church founded by His Apostles) about God and our relationship to Him. I am praying that you will be given the courage to embrace true humility.

Rev. Anderson,

I generally enjoyed the ethos of your piece. I agree with you especially that Christianity isn't primarily about knowing all sorts of teachings, but in knowing the one Lord Jesus. What intrigued me, though, was the distinction you seem hold between (1) knowing the Spirit of Chirst and (2) knowing dogma/doctrine on the other. It is certainly an important distinction but the two aspects of Christianity, while distinct, cannot be separated.

Take a commonplace example for my point. If you told me that you knew my pal Pete, and then began to describe to me where you met him and what he was like, I would sit up and listen. If you started by describing him as a white man in his late 20s, I'ld think, "Say, maybe he does know Pete." If you continued to say that he was rather small but very loud, I'ld get to be confused. While Pete might have acted loudly, he is not generally a loud person. And small he is not, except as compared to some very large people perhaps. But these points have perspective and subjectivity woven into them, so I'ld still take your word on it. When you continued to describe Pete as being a native of Poland, I'ld stop you and say you must be thinking of another man. My friend has never been to Poland, and in fact is a native of New England.

You see the dilemma? St. Augustine points it out in his Confessions, "How can I know Thee, Lord, without knowing about Thee? Yet how can I know about Thee without knowing Thee?"

The dogmas safeguarded by the Church aren't walls meant to keep out those who cannot climb over them, who cannot bring themselves to believe the dogmas. They are more like scraps from a photoalbum or pages from a journal. They are like Grandpa's old Army uniform, or Grandma's old knitting yarn. They require some sifting through every so often, but mustn't be discarded: they tell us very real, concrete things about those people we loved; in doing so they protect and ensure our memory of them. The dogmas of the Church tell us very real, concrete things about the Lord Jesus, and in doing so help us to KNOW ABOUT Him, so that we can KNOW Him. Without such dogmas, it would be very easy, inevitable even, that we mistake somebody else for the Lord, simply by virtue of knowing so little about Him. If there were no spirit but Christ's, we should never have the benefit of knowing Him, and knowing THAT we really know HIM. But being that there ARE other spirits in the world who have an interest in gaining our confidence, it is a very good thing indeed to know a little ABOUT Him, so that we can tell the genuine from the imposter.

I wonder what you think, Rev. Anderson. Have I missed the point of your article entirely?

Lucifer, what a silly idea you have. Really, imagine! God created everything that exists: stars, planets, trees, rivers, people, electricity, comets, seasons, stone, even bunny rabbits. With the bit of free will he's given you you're going to pretend to equality with that? Really!? Can you even pull a rabbit out of your hat, let alone make one from scratch?

What a boob! If only you grasped how silly you sound, how much like a 15-year-old who thinks he doesn't need his mom and dad to take care of him. I wonder how you think of such silly things? Do you read them on the back of cereal boxes? What an idea! Ha! Well, it got me to sit up in at my desk anyway, so I guess it was good for something.

To/ Brothers & Sisters...As all good people to knowing God, one must be equal to God. Not the grovling, snivling,fools that we having become. You but allow others to brainwash as abuse that you become as servants to man,as prisoners unto their deceit cunning.God having no need or wish that you come a begging as a dog,unto its master to obey on call.Get off your knees.Stand before God as your equal,thus win your freedom...Your BROTHER in ARMS...Lucifer xxx X

I'm not sure I understand....