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This is the most beautiful piece in your collection. I'm at a young age and still maturing in the ways of my beliefs are only can label myself a person of faith...I have no label other then that for my spirtuality. I do believe that whether or not certain aspects of the Christian religion are fact or merely parables should not subtract from their beautiful message.

Hi E Favorite

You're welcome. It was a journey with some strange back-roads for me - fundamentalism is a strange place.

Check out my blog (crowlspace.com) for some more ruminations on these issues - and others.

Adam

Thanks Shawn and Adam - for someone like me, who wants to understand how people think about religion, your comments are both treasures.

Adam - anyone reading through this forum would know my sentiments are much like yours (though my history is a little different - no parochial school). I'll refer to your comments frequently when recounting my own journey.

Hi Shawn B

I was perhaps more fortunate than you because I went to a Lutheran school staffed by (mostly) believing teachers, and the school went out of its way explaining what the Christian message was.

The problem was I never heard about the problems that Old and New Testament scholarship and archaeology had thrown up for old-style literalistic belief, so when I first encountered such my first reaction was wanting to prove the claims wrong. I was never satisfied with "just believing", I had to know why and what etc. I asked questions where others "just believed", and that's dangerous to "just believing".

After encountering Jehovah's Witnesses I read the Church Fathers to prove them wrong - their "Should You Believe the Trinity" pamphlet from about 17 years ago made all sorts of ridiculous claims. After getting to know Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian and so on I got hooked on reading about old Christian beliefs - old and odd. They believed, unreservedly, a whole lot of questionable things because they thought that's what believing entailed.

One thing I learnt was just how willingly people will believe ridiculous things for the sake of religion. And a more subtle point is that people will perceive the same data very differently for the sake of belief.

So I've gradually believed less and less because there's so much epistemological uncertainty about any religious claim. I still like the idea of God, immortality, and Jesus as God/Man as Mediator, but I've no objective reason to believe any of it. Belief is just intra-subjective mind-games - unless there's something solid and objectively real I can pin it to. So far I've found next to nothing that might qualify as objective support for Christianity's most crucial claims, and so I, reluctantly, remain an agnostic.

Adam

Adam,

You asked my "what changed"? Why did I go from a normal "church-goer" to believing in Christ?

What changed was actually hearing the message of Christ presented accurately. For years I went to church and heard a nice "story". The minister would quote a Bible verse or two, then go into a lengthy discourse that may or may not have had anything to do with the quoted text.

At about age 18 I went to a church that explained what the verses actually meant; what the author's intent was. I heard the gospel message explained from the text. That forgiveness and eternal life came from believing on the de@th, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Before this I had heard about Jesus, that he came as a baby, that he was crucified on a cross, that he did good works, that God is love. All accurate things. But it was never put in the context of God redeeming mankind from sin.

It was kind of like having all the parts of a swingset with no instructions. After it was like having the instructions and seeing how it went together. (anyone who has put together one of these infernal things knows what I mean!).

How about you? What did you previously believe in that you ceased believing in? And why?

Mr. Anderson,

After reading a number of your posts, I must say I'm confused as to why you call yourself a Christian at all, let alone a priest. You seem to try and discredit as much of Christianity as you can while still staying "this side" of saved, all the while satisfying the more liberal views on everything the Bible deals with in absolute terms.

I am truly saddened by your stance. Up and till now I've avoided criticising a fellow clergyman, but, I cannot not address you any longer.

You ought to really re-evaluate your own stance re: the tenets of Christianity etc. as opposed to the infallible and indelible truth i.e.: Jesus Christ and the Bible.

(((((((((((( U.R.B.I. ET O.R.B.I. ))))))))))))))

Greetings on the two of both Christian Easters overlapping each other. That is Rare. : ) /

My Mom & my Wife are Russian/Greek Orthodox. But I am an ECLATARIAN.

I believe in the great ECLATi that is my Me Me in the PHOTO FINITE Miracle of our selves.

Please excuse my innocence and being candid.

I LOVE GREEK PEOPLE. They are beautiful!

And they gave Mankind DEMOCRACY WITH good PHILOSOPHY, Art and countless more.,

Yet I know that the great VATICAN via Mr. Benedict, has spoken. To 2.6 Billion Cgristians (orthodox Roman et al included ).

And VIOLENCE, Human Wrongs against Humate Rights violations & Contempt for LIFE and exploitation ....” Was the Crux of the World s State of business.

The most important message from the POPE is: “...Some People attempt to “justify Terrorism and Violence IN THE NAME OF G-D (the Abrahamic ONE, et al).

Therefore: I am SECULAR MAN” against Religious Human Right Violations against the HUMANITY DOCTRINE, Int'l & Beyond.

So I say Brother MaN, Praise thee me and in my of the Me Me as being my PHOTO PHINITY.

Oh lordy, oh our Mighty Lord Source One & great CREATOR, Oh G-d ECLATi in me the not a HE nor a SHE, but an IT or ITSELF that is G-d, Eternity is Eclati avoiding Loneliness through ME, us, you, and ALL things ANIMATE & Inanimate.

HARK: We NEVER DIE. Just be good in this Space-Ship Momma/Poppa Earth.

I have a Riddle: Nothing is for Ever here. But in the 5th Dimension our Eclati-ON is awaiting for another try in the Photo Finite Appearance of form again in TRANSFINITY (Reality on the constant harmonic move in a form of Nature).

Eff-Garra-Stoe. “SHILOH i The Light Bringer is already now come” and for now Brethren & Sistarinos, Peace, Love Rock n Roll, Ya Ya. SHOLOM!

QUOTE: My Christian conviction has never hinged on a belief that the Gospel narratives were the equivalent of transcripts of CNN on-the-spot interviews.

Well, err, that's no good then!

I don't even work for them but I'd be insulted!!

Hi Shawn B

Thanks for a detailed and measured response - I was hoping you wanted dialogue and not an argument. I'm glad my hope wasn't in vain.

You said...

Response: I'm not sure he does know it's true. He doesn't state it. There are many people who "go to church", who don't believe in the resurrection. I was one of them for 18 years.

What changed? I believed and then began to question the certainty which that belief was being proclaimed - the textual evidence is so at odds with itself, in my eyes.

Adam

Brothers & Sisters on Space-Ship momma/Poppa Earth.

On The Cr addle and on the "PEOPLE OF The DEMOCRACY. and Not the BOOK (Bible)"

"May Eclat preserve and Protect the Greek People & Friends, from the pre-apocalyptic Minds and thinkers of ancient Lores & in their destined EPOCHS".

I like the old ZOROASTRIAN Religious days (Especially in old Persia/Iran) where you would be prepared (Your spirit took three days to go away) and EATEN BY V.U.L.T.U.R.E.S, as a burial ritual, not just the FIRE & the EQUONOX or Solstice of the pregnant Spring (their New Years even calibrated Today). Note: Like HINDUISM “Cremation” of reincarnation is also good too.

Remember: In ECLATi We NEVER DIE. AND : J.E.S.U.S. Never Died nor suffered for anyone Human beings (Humates) on this beautiful Great Space_Ship Momma/Poppa Earth.

LIFE, and hence BIRTH, is a Miracle. Moses the copy Cat borrowed myths or some story's from your Greek Gods & ZEUZ! Note: “Alexander The GREAT” was also known as “THE SON OF MAN & G-D” Ands Not Jesus.

FACT: No body in ALL the History on Space-Ship Earth could name both the NAMES OF THE MOTHERS/ Momma, EEEmmma, etc.., of both Mr. NOAH & MR. ABRAHAM.????

Remember: Mr. Biblical Adam, et al had a Cosmic “C” Section done on him by JEHOVAH, LORD, YAWAH, G-d of ISRAEL and gave Birth to a Women called EVE). So please have the BISHIP or CARDINAL or RABBI, IMMAM, or POPE answer this most important and needed answer ASAP.

Please : Start from PELIG line ( means DIVIDED People a/k/a EBERU's [Hebrew]) to David & then Jesus & forget about Mohammad, but remember “JOKTAN.” (Means UNITED People a/k/a EBERU [Hebrew]).

B.E.H.O.L.D: “SHILOH” has transferred the SCEPTOR & ROD from between his PEOPLE. According to the MELCHIZEDIK PEACE BLESSING, Wherein: ECLAT, IT, ITSELF, G-D, No Angel No Heaven, No Satan No Hell, just you and ME in the Me Me of the ECLATi-on in YOU, Me, ALL things Real that are just Animate & in the Inanimate form in Eternal ENTROPY & hence REAPPEARING in Quantum notions. Yes, With Calculus mankind can stand on the “Shoulders of Giants. And NOT any HUMATE or in the Flesh type of G-d..., No No No Mon!

SECRET: Arabs know of them as “The First People” from the “KATAN” lineage (Not Pelig his Twin which is where JOKTAN takes the PATH of the ECLATi of whom and of which and wherefore, is derived about for the APOCALYPSE & REVELATION that is a REVOCATION Of ALL your Current PreApocalyptic INFIXUX BOOKS.

There Fore: IT or ITSELF (g-d) of you, and you in IT and IT in You, is Now or Never for finding and finding your HEURISTICS that is Insight and Pattern Recognition Powers for you, Or MANNA FROM TRUE EUTOPIA so to speak.!?).

And it was JOSEPHUS, & PAUL who were the geniuses behind the creation of the “Father, Son. Holy Ghost. Amon” ( a Egyptian half Man Half Beast a/k/a AMEN) Thing.

Note: To kneel down, as an Eclati-an, before an Eclati-an HUMATE “Priest, Rabbi, Preacher, Imam etc,,, and to accept both “SYMBOLIC” Flesh & Blood of an Eclati-an-Man [Mr. Jesus is a zero G-d ] as if HE and a She be a G-d, is tantamount to “Symbolic Cannibal-ism” and “Symbolic Vampire-ism”.

It was they who said (Lots of things) that “Jesus Said”, “I f you don't believe in Moses writing [LIES] then why should you not believe in me..” [SIMILAR].

And hence, and in fact, and contrary to ANY purported or claimed G-Dly or Un G-Dly scripture(s) of Lores and of their Epochs. Birth-Awareness is ZERO SIN. NO HUMATE shall sacrifice oneself or become to atone or represent ME before some biblical DEITY in or from some Mythical Heaven or Hell instead of ECLATi!

BIOFINITE D.E.A.T.H. [ Your Carbon Based Microbial time mist] is NOT T.A.N.S.F.I.N.I.T.E. Death” (Reality moving at unknown speed of PHOTONICS into the Line Spectrum Frequency of a channel open and awaiting us there, and thus we will existing in the NON-GRAVITY-PLACE for another DUE TO BE REACREATION of another Photofinite Magama-Triculated Miracle animate Form. Out of the Inanimate form, and forward towards the Spectrum place again and again. Ya Ya Ya MON! From Larve to Caterpillar to Butterfly & beyond again & again! This is TRUE LOVE.

Our REALITY G-d , a/k/a the Eclati ,is ETERNITY AVOIDING LONLINESS THROUGH us ALL via animate light thing & via all inanimate light things. SO, “WE Never Die”. Now this is POETIC JUSTICE indeed. Goose Bumps Ya!

Note: Our Great PROPHET: Father Albert Einstein did not go for any of the story coming out of the so called “ABRAHAMIC” Faiths, Beliefs or religious SYSTEMS. And Albert himself mentioned Eclati as (SPOOKY STUFF). He did prefer Hindu/Buddhism & enjoyed Spinoza ism, et al thinking (Believing in Cosmic feeling or Harmony & thus BELONGING as ONE, not Dual belief like Devil (good-Bad) & Angel (Good Bad) and G-d.

Thus Abrahamic, including mono Zoroastrian faith is really and actually, on the hidden faces of their Bibles or Holy Books. A DUALISTIC Religions SYSTEMS. Ands they are NOT MONO in any way you try to deny IT (g-D). to your own TRUE Loving ECLATI & your MeME in your DNA/RNA Photonics, as ONE-YOU in ALL THINGS, animate & in Inanimate. Ya Ya Mon.

I believe Burring is a waste of Land, Money, Time, & an Melancholy eye soar of a reminder. I guess to each his/her own. NOTE: The Three WISE Zoroastrian MEN or Priests who followed the star and went To Jesus Bethlehem, had seen Jesus as an infant in Stable.

Of course when Born in Stable or Barn does not make anyone a Cow. Even a HOLY cow or Horse at that... Ya Mon.

Important: When WE or our ECLATi goes, our Carbon Based & Microbial matter DECOMPOSES via DEHYDRATION & our MeMe or Me Me in our own ECLATi continues, Undisturbed, in the Transfinity of your PHOTO FINITE ESSENCE via the PLASMATIC Interface where WE go forwards, not backwards, to the 5th Dimension that has IT (G-d) place between the Frequency's of the VISIBLE LIGHT SPECTRUM and of the dark silver lines or string therein and thereof. So hang on and never let go of your own Miracle in PhotoFinite appearance in thy mist if you insist.

Praise the Lord, Fearless, un Jealous HOLY-NO-MAN!
Thank You Lord SOURCE ONE for MY MIRACLE in your TRANSFINITY (Reality living & Dieing Eternally and Moving in Constant Harmony Forever & Ever, again and again). So my Greekish beauty: I Doff me Hat, I bow and say, “Eff Gara Stoe, and Adios! "Thanks & good Bye"!

Adam, my reponses to your thoughts....

Blessings, Shawn

Adam wrote: "Well your belief isn't built on much - someone's rhetoric about an Empty Tomb? You have no hard evidence for a Resurrection even if your current choice of Tomb is the right one. None of the disciples saw JC walk out of the Tomb in the body that Joseph placed in it - a couple of them saw a few empty burial cloths."

Response: According to your definition, all history is then rhetoric. The current film, "300", is about a battle in Thermopoly. But did the author who wrote this history "see" it? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it's just a fanciful tale of bravery and battle. An author who records events based upon interviewing those who saw is writing history. Much, in fact most, of our history is gotten this way. How do you know any Caesar was assasintaed? History written by those who "probably" did not see it. Amazing that we as humans accept ancient writings unless it may have a negative meaning for our life today.

Adam wrote: "Then, depending on which Gospel you read, they saw JC either "in Galilee", on a mountain (but some doubted), a stranger breaking bread, as a materialising phantasm (ask a Spiritualist about whether that means bodily "resurrection"), as a guy who cooked them fish by the Sea of Galilee - seemingly after they utterly forgot seeing him in Jerusalem behind locked doors."

Response: Each gospel author recorded events from their own perspective. Some based on eyewitness accounts, some based on personal interviews. Five people who see a carwreck are going to record it differently. Most of the basic facts will be the same. But one person will include something that the other didn't see. Does this make their testimony false...no, just different and more or less complete.

Adam wrote: So which one of those do you find most convincing? Oh and don't forget the resurrection appearance to Paul - who only heard about an Empty Tomb - and that none of his travelling companions saw. Sounds like a "bodily resurrection" to me, very physical to hear voices and see bright lights that knock you to the ground.

Response: "The written record and history of Christianity support the physical resurrection of Jesus. I believe I experience the "prescence of Christ" in my life, as does Mr. Andersen. However, my experience is based on Christ's resurrection not becuase of a shared experience with others (although this is important.)"

Adam wrote: "So which one counts as evidence for you? Saul/Paul's seizure? Mark's vague message from angels? Matthew's mountain top experience? Emmaus Road? Or physical appearances in Jerusalem? Or by Lake Kinneret?"

Response: You seem to indicate that multiple appearances of Christ present a problem. I don't see it as a problem, but instead as further evidence of the resurrection event.

Adam wrote: And how do you know? What makes any of them evidence? Your faith in the Bible? But isn't the proof of your faith based on "evidence" only recorded in the Bible? And what does some guy reviving from a Crucifixion and vanishing from view, very conveniently, leaving only witness testimony, got to do with what you do today nearly 2000 years later? What does Resurrection matter to you, right now? It's history, isn't it? How does that have any effect on you now?"

Response: It has everything to do with today. Because I believe he didn't just "vanish", but ascend into heaven to return at the appointed time. His followers life on this earth is about glorifying God and spreading the message about this miaculaous event. An event than can bring them pardon and eternal life. And...if any man raises from the dead after such a death, it is significant for the rest of the history of mankind. Because he's the only one to have done it.

Adam wrote: If the Resurrection isn't real for you now, then it means nothing at all whether it happened then or not. So what does it mean for you right now? How do you experience it today? If at all.

Response: I believe my previous comments answer this.

Adam wrote: Mr. Anderson experiences Jesus as a living presence in his life right now. For him the Resurrection is a real, abiding Event here-and-now, not just back then. He knows it's true - do you?

Response: I'm not sure he does know it's true. He doesn't state it. There are many people who "go to church", who don't believe in the resurrection. I was one of them for 18 years.

"Ben says Anderson's explanation is unsupported. This is a good example of the disrespect for the perception of others that Anderson is talking about."

How so ? I have had an out-of-body experience while undergoing surgery. The explanation that leaps to mind, that an immaterial 'I' left my body and floated around the surgery room, is wholly unsupported by anything other than my personal experience. The explanation that it is a phenomenon of the brain is much better supported by what we know. Am I disrespecting my own perceptions when I do that ? No. Mr. Anderson is disrespecting intellectual honesty by maintaining his human understanding that 'his Redeemer lives' apart from all his other human understandings, unfalsifiable, untestable, immune from modification.

"In many ways faith is, indeed, all in our heads."

If faith based claims were only on the perceptions there would be no problem. 'I have experiences that are highly suggestive of a benevolent, transcendent being' is honest and completely unproblematic. 'A benevolent, transcendent being is the explanation for my experiences' is not. If I am going to give any credence to an explanation for such an experience as being correct, the explanation must be the result of an honest inquiry using our best methods of investigation. Mr. Anderson asks for an exemption that I will not grant. He wants me to not call his explanation as almost surely flat-out wrong while simultaneously refusing to even consider any other explanation.

"An idea that "lept to his mind" and he has daily tested for 60 years?"

He has not tested it. Indeed, he implies the idea is unshakable by the results of any conceivable test:

"What difference would it make for me if incontrovertible proof of the discovery of the mortal remains of Jesus of Nazareth were discovered? None at all."

"To know that my Redeemer lives does not rest on... the imperfect nature of human understanding and communication."

There is no indication of any desire here to have his human understanding be tested. He sets his human understanding that 'my Redeemer lives' apart from his other human understandings. It is deliberately unaltered or compared to other human understandings, immune to falsification or modification.

"An idea that has led to a life of service? Nearly 2000 years of tradition? These mean nothing to you?"

They mean little in evaluating the truth-value of the idea.

Hi Shawn B

Well your belief isn't built on much - someone's rhetoric about an Empty Tomb? You have no hard evidence for a Resurrection even if your current choice of Tomb is the right one. None of the disciples saw JC walk out of the Tomb in the body that Joseph placed in it - a couple of them saw a few empty burial cloths.

Then, depending on which Gospel you read, they saw JC either "in Galilee", on a mountain (but some doubted), a stranger breaking bread, as a materialising phantasm (ask a Spiritualist about whether that means bodily "resurrection"), as a guy who cooked them fish by the Sea of Galilee - seemingly after they utterly forgot seeing him in Jerusalem behind locked doors.

So which one of those do you find most convincing? Oh and don't forget the resurrection appearance to Paul - who only heard about an Empty Tomb - and that none of his travelling companions saw. Sounds like a "bodily resurrection" to me, very physical to hear voices and see bright lights that knock you to the ground.

So which one counts as evidence for you? Saul/Paul's seizure? Mark's vague message from angels? Matthew's mountain top experience? Emmaus Road? Or physical appearances in Jerusalem? Or by Lake Kinneret?

And how do you know? What makes any of them evidence? Your faith in the Bible? But isn't the proof of your faith based on "evidence" only recorded in the Bible?

And what does some guy reviving from a Crucifixion and vanishing from view, very conveniently, leaving only witness testimony, got to do with what you do today nearly 2000 years later? What does Resurrection matter to you, right now? It's history, isn't it? How does that have any effect on you now?

If the Resurrection isn't real for you now, then it means nothing at all whether it happened then or not. So what does it mean for you right now? How do you experience it today? If at all.

Mr. Anderson experiences Jesus as a living presence in his life right now. For him the Resurrection is a real, abiding Event here-and-now, not just back then. He knows it's true - do you?

ooops...last post is mine.

Andersen makes an amazing statement...

"I am thankful and glad that my Christian faith has never rested on certainty about the meaning of any Scriptural story or tenet of doctrine."

Then why have any Scripture...just throw it out. Seriously. If our faith rests on only our experience then we basically have a quantity of faiths equal to the world population. Each man's experience becomes their "faith source."

To answer this weeks question..."if incontrovertible proof of the discovery of the mortal remains of Jesus of Nazareth were discovered?" I'd turn in my NT tomorrow and eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die.

Ben says:
"This idea that the most likely or only acceptable explanation for your experiences is a 'transcendental divinity' is personal arrogance."

An idea that "lept to his mind" and he has daily tested for 60 years? An idea that has led to a life of service? Nearly 2000 years of tradition? These mean nothing to you?

I read your "god experiments" article. And you called him arrogant.... Science is your hammer, and everything looks like a nail, right?

I'd wish you good luck, but I'm sure you'd take me to task.

Ben says Anderson's explanation is unsupported. This is a good example of the disrespect for the perception of others that Anderson is talking about. Why does the existence of religious believers pain some non-believers so? Your mind doesn't work the same way as mine, but I'm not personally insulted by your interpretation-- as long as you don't presume to tell me what to believe in, and why.

In many ways faith is, indeed, all in our heads.

I would be interested in hearing anyone's reactions to the role of religion in the grieving process. Comments can be posted at 'Liberating Losses'

http://lookinginthedistance.blogspot.com

All comments are approved by the moderator prior to publication to prevent nonsense comments such as some of those above.

"The Gospel testimony is an attempt to put into human language experiences of encounter with transcendent Divinity. To be possessed or held by such experience is something quite apart from how we convey the reality to others. Many of life’s genuinely powerful and profound experiences share this elusive quality of mystery. The experience is not something we can grasp or hold – instead it holds us. Think of your own experience."

These experiences are common and fit in perfectly well with metaphysical naturalism. They can be duplicated. Some are more prone to the experiences than others.

http://discovermagazine.com/2006/dec/god-experiments/

This idea that the most likely or only acceptable explanation for your experiences is a 'transcendental divinity' is personal arrogance. Accurate explanations for all human experiences have historically been difficult to conceive or confirm. The idea that the explanation that leaps to your mind is correct is completely unwarranted. Methods of arriving at accurate belief that actually work - as opposed to your method of 'it seems that way to me' - give no support for your explanation.