All Comments (24)

Oops. Sorry, Alan. I'm thankful for you, too. Didn't mean to leave you out. Your opinion is VERY important, and I particularly appreciate you stating it with such brevity. That is a skill I have yet to develop.

Karen

Bear with me:

I am thankful for:

-- People named "Quentin."

-- Brave Muslim women

-- Jack Knife's thoughtful post

-- The humor of Lepidopteryx, particularly the choice of that pseudonym, since it just took me 4 hours and 19 minutes to type

-- Yangpu6's references to "wobble/wobbles," which rhyme with "gobble/gobbles," which brings us full circle to the theme of thankfulness

-- The round-robin conversations of Canyon Shearer, Jack Knife, Lepidopteryx (just got that down to 4 hours and 3 minutes) & Paganplace. It's kept me entertained, enlightened and engaged enough such that I've been able to ignore the gazillion emails in my inbox

-- Mr. Mark's opinion -- which I tend to agree with more often than not, although I wish we could add "Founding Mothers" to the comment. Sigh.

-- Lepidopteryx (now down to 4 hours) -- will you share your flavored massage oils? I prefer chocolate. I will be very thankful for them. After all, that is the theme of this, um, let's see now, what is this we're doing? Oh, yeah. Responding. I would respond very well to chocolate.

-- Paganplace: I bet if you had some chocolate-flavored massage oil from Lepidopteryx (wow! typed that in under 4 hours!), you wouldn't call him, well, you know...

-- Oh, I hope y'all (yes, I'm from the South, but I never had slaves) had a happy Thanksgiving, whether you were thankful for body piercing, liberty, Muslim women, or Brent Walker, my personal favorite, by the way.

Gobble, gobble & hugs,
Karen

p.s. I'll try to come up with a pseudonym for future posts. One that won't take 4 hours -- give or take a few minutes -- to type.

Oh, but, hey, Lepi, that 'written on the heart' has to do with their words-thing.

Not so concerned with what's *in* the heart as long as the branding and product placement are right, but that's the way of these ornery beasties. :)

Or... not? :)

Paganplace...

Thanks for proving my point.

You've rejected the Bible and you don't even know what it says.

Ok, Canyon, it's time for an anatomy lesson.

It is impossible for a person to be born with anything physically written on his/her physical heart. The heart forms inside the individual's chest cavity, which forms indside an amniotic sac, which is inside the mother's abdominal cavity.
The only "marks" on my physical heart are the normal striations on my cardiac muscle.

The physical heart is not the seat of emotion - the brain is. And since the brain also forms in a similar "nesting boxes" fashion as the heart, no one is born with any text written there either.

As for my spiritual "heart," there are many names "written" there - and some that were previously "written" there have had to be "erased." And at least one gets added almost daily. But none of those names are owners to whom it should be returned if if lost. See, it can't be lost. Ever.
And the grooviest part of it all is that its "batteries" don't ever run down, even when my physical body does. The love that was given from it stays with those to whom it was given. And that love gets combined with whatever love they give, so it becomes an ever-widening circle that overlaps and mingles with other circles, and just keeps growing.

But who knows - maybe I'll make my next tattoo the one you described - just to humor you. On second thought - no. I think I'd rather have an ouroboros.

But, yeah, Canyon. I do pay attention, that's why I know you're trying to be the second-meanest SOB in the whole-damn-universe. It does neither your heart nor your Gods any credit, though. :)

Oh, and you asked to be humored, Canyon, how negligent of me to not act like that's not exactly what I've been doing all along... :)

"Paganplace...

"Just to humor me, because I'm quite certain you're not paying attention, in your own words, if the Bible is true, what are the benefits and how does one become a Christian?"

Oh, you mistake me. You call yourself a 'street preacher' ...one of those dudes that comes and shouts and froths on the street... then goes home to tell himself what he thinks he saw if he even looked.

I've been someone who *always* pays attention, even to people like you, ..just not in the way you imagine in your narcissistic way.

But your 'question' is nonsense.

The Bible can never be true in the way you want it to be because it *isn't.*

It doesn't even agree with *itself* in the way you want to claim it for an authority over others.

I spent a certain amount of time in that world you proclaim yourself to preach to. And when you talk like that, I think of a certain amount of time I spent warming up in an ATM kiosk with a certain highly-schizotypal gentleman who was absolutely attached to believing he was in fact the lost Dauphin of old France. An obsolete fancy, but it worked for him, I guess. And he apparently spent much of his life (and as it turned out, some hours of mine,) trying to convince people of this fact.

And after a while, sitting there on those tiles.... *paying attention,* what I asked, (And I think I managed the appropriate honorific, which escapes me now,) "So, Monseuir, given your scandalously-reduced circumstance, what do you intend to do now, with your lordly entitlement? Clearly, we are here, in this circumstance, but what's an exiled Prince to *do,* in the true spirit of nobility?"

Now, I have no illusions this was life-changing, but, he *did* stop thinking about what he didn't have cause of family circumstances he did also speak about, ...and did go right out and act a bit as might befit an exiled Prince.

You ask 'What are the benefits,' and 'How does one become?'

I say, it's not about 'If My Bible is True,' *then* 'What are the benefits' or 'How does one become.'

I say it *is* about the heart.

First. Whatever our story is. But, hey.

I met the Dauphin.

One cold night he stopped trying to 'prove' some entitlement and started trying to live up to it.

Cause I *do* pay attention.

So.

Street preacher.

What's *your* story?

Oh, and everyone knows it's your kink.

Now, you were claiming you had access to some great spiritual message?

Since you like torture and slavery so much, Canyon, I'm sure you're as willing as Cotton Mather and his boys to find a 'mark' 'somewhere on womens' bodies,' right?

We know your kind, but your hysteria is obsolete in civilized nations.

I forgot to mention that this stamp is most likely on your heart.

Canyon,

Funny, nowhere in the Bible do I see my name.

Trust me, the only marks on my body are ones that I had put there - piercings and tattooes.

And the battery-operated items are in the nightstand drawer along with the flavored massage oils.

I'm glad you're mad, please try to discern whether you're mad at me or mad at the truth. I'm not defending slavery, I'm trying to show you the truth of reality.

Lepidopteryx,

The Bible tells me full well who your owner is. If you'll look around, somewhere on your body is stamped:

Owned and Operated by Day Star Productions
When batteries expire, please return to
666 S. Wide Way for destruction.

Paganplace...

Just to humor me, because I'm quite certain you're not paying attention, in your own words, if the Bible is true, what are the benefits and how does one become a Christian?

Why am I not surprised Canyon's defending slavery... as long as, apparently, it's done by Bible-believers.

While there's a certain element of serfdom to our debtor's society, it's certainly better than *that,* and Biblical literalists, while they may indict Pagan societies for the same sort of slavery their book advocates, cannot at the same time defend the practice in their own modalities.

It's quite possible, if often difficult, to live without being in debt, at least, I suppose, as long as you don't get sick: credit cards and the like may make people seem to have less than nothing, but it's really a lot 'poorer' to have 'zero.' It actually sort of pays to have the banks into you for something, they'll find it less-tempting to screw you for something.

Slavery, though, guarantees nothing: you live at other people's sufferance. Though in some ancient societies like Gaelic ones, being of an 'unfree' social station came with some carefully-enumerated human rights, (there was also at least a chance of social mobility, unlike the slavery of the South) ...and though capitalism has no real guarantees of not being a de-facto slave, particularly when profiteering is sanctified and corporations are given the rights of individuals, there's a distinct difference, one which is very much a part of modern American values, even if not always honored in the practice.

Still, if you think you'd prefer abject slavery, you're sorely mistaken.

Sorry, Canyon, but my body and soul are owned by no one but myself.

A mortgage is not the same as being enslaved. The bank does not own you - it only owns the house you live in until such time as you repay the money you borrowed. And no one forced you to buy a house against your will.

Likewise, working for an employer is not the same as slavery. This is a mutually agreed-upon exchange of labor for pay. You are not owned by your employer. You have the option of leaving any time you desire. All you have to do is say "I quit" and walk out. No one will set dogs after you, track you down, and bring you back in irons.

You wrote "Just as in the age of the Apostles, slavery is condoned in the Bible because slavery guarantees employment, productivity, room, and board."
Phrased that way, it sounds all warm and fuzzy. But the thing is, the people who were taken as slaves already HAD homes, families, and lives of their own from which they were taken against their will. Their free will was takne from them - they had no choice as to where they would live, who they would work for, or even what, when, or if they would eat on a given day. They had no choice as to who would share their beds or with whom they would produce children. So please stop trying to make it sound like a good thing.

As for God having paid for my soul - nope. It's not for sale.

I thank our Founding Fathers for the USA.

God had nothing to do with it.

Dear Jack Knife...

The Doctrine of Slavery
C. Shearer - July 2007

Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. – 1 John 2:18

A favorite scapegoat of the unbeliever is, “Why does the Bible condone slavery?!” followed by, “It says to give your slave a day off!”

I have prayed long and hard on this doctrine, knowing that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, inspired, timeless word of God. The best I got from apologetics was that the slavery the Bible spoke of wasn’t the slavery of the 18th and 19th centuries. I don’t like squishy theology, and that was a squishy answer. The slavery of the 18th and 19th centuries may be argued to be crueler than Biblical slavery, but it undeniably fulfills the definition of slavery. Slavery is defined as a person being the property of another; contained within the term is hard undesirable work for no pay, garnishing the minimum necessities for life. I’m reminded of a quote describing slave-ownership by a particularly raunchy television show, “Him? He’s just a young foreigner who works for us in exchange for room and board.”

A favorite brainwashing technique of the Devil is that of this-then-that; in other words, if this is true, that is true. We have been massaged and manipulated by the despicable slavery accurately portrayed in the movie/book “Roots”, in which one ethnic group is oppressed and treated horrendously. The fallacy leads us to believe that if what happened to Kunta Kinte is bad(and it was), then all slavery is bad.

I assure you this is none more than a fallacy, and I will give you the example to prove it. The Bible says that we don’t need to sell our soul to the Devil, but rather we have lost our eternal security through transgression, freely given our soul away, that we are bound in the captivity of the Devil (2 Tim 2:26). We have become the property of the Devil through transgression of God’s laws. There are those Christians, including me, who claim to be Born Again, Blood Bought, Children of God.

If we were the captives of the Devil, and a price was due for our salvation, that price being an atoning death, then the following Bible verses show us how Christians have been purchased:

“…the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” – Acts 20:28
“You are not your own, for you were bought with a price.” – 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
“You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.” – 1 Corinthians 7:23

In the theology realm, we are either under the ownership of the Devil, or the ownership of Christ, there is no middle-ground, and hence in philosophy, we should see the same thing.

Gone is the day when there was an actual deed of ownership written for our person. We live in the false security that we are our own keeper, that we are free to roam, careless of the watchful eye of our owners, and welcome to make any choice we feel compelled to make.

The slave-owner has been replaced by the Bank, by the Employer, and by the Bill-Collector. We have sold ourselves into slavery through debt and the pursuit of property. One difference today is that we are separated from our masters; the plantation owner is content now to let us make him money from afar; I am in the employ of Wachovia, having promised for a sum of money for room, to pay them 200% the original loan value over the next 30-years. What has changed is the transferability of my ownership; I could easily tomorrow arrange to be sold to Chase Manhattan or to Bank of America or to Wells Fargo; but my station would not change; I would still be indebted and working for a money-hungry indifferent master.

Our employment is another master, demanding the majority of our time for its purposes; and just as the Bible tells to give slaves time off, so must our employer give time off in order to maintain output efficiency and be compliant with labor laws.

We like to think we are free, but in the infamous words of a beautiful song, “Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.” To be free of our debtors, free from our employers is to own nothing and have nothing.

Just as in the age of the Apostles, slavery is condoned in the Bible because slavery guarantees employment, productivity, room, and board. Once we realize that while we are not slaves to the tobacco plantations of South Carolina, we are owned by Capitalism; the laws and recommendations made in the Bible for slave treatment are as timeless and relevant today as they have ever been; no jot or tittle shall fall away from the law till this Heaven and Earth have passed.

This is a tremendous blow to the apologetics whom credit the great Christian William Wilberforce with abolishing slavery in England, and who give credit to Abraham Lincoln for the Emancipation Proclamation. These men should be credited for their attempts to show that all men are created equal, not that they abolished one form of slavery in order to usher in a new type.

Therefore avoid these false gospels of freedom for all men, recognize the antichristian doctrines of antislavery, and hold fast to your owner, God Almighty, and seek that His payment on Calvary might purchase a few more souls before the end.

J. Brent Walker has learned to wobble; and he wobbles very well.

**Even though our liberty is a gift from God — not the result of an act of concession of the state**

Then why did God nit bestowthat gift universally? That liberty is the result of men - mortal human men - who had both the hindsight and the foresight to realize that gods and governments should not be married, or even hook up for occasional one-night stands.

Our liberty is a "gift" from god?
Where is the proof for that statement? Stone tablets, golden plates, The Bible which condones slavery?

In 1797 our government concluded a "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, or Barbary," now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 of the treaty contains these words:

As the Government of the United States...is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion--

Well said.

I am thankful that Muslim women like Ayaan Hirsi Ali have the courage and the freedom to tell the truth about Islam as she did so in her book, Infidel.

A summary from the Washington Post book review:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

To Quentin Sewell's comments above: "Ditto."

J. Brent Walker gives thanks for a host of "Freedom Fighters" from Roger Williams to William Brennan. I thank God for J. Brent Walker and the Baptist Joint Committee who fight for the continuation an d enhancement of these freedoms.