All Comments (41)

Stuart:

Just two points of fact: For nearly forty years, women have been ordained as Rabbis. Jesus, Yehoshua, is not part of the Jewish religion. However, as an African American woman who has done some research into both Christianity and Judaism, I can affirm that Jesus was neither Black nor "Arab," a designation that did not exist at the time of his life.

Both the notions that the ancients were Anglo-Saxon whites (ridiculous, I grant you), and that they were black or Arab are a matter of identity politics. At the time, they were still referred to as Hebrews (Ebiru).

Serena

1st Jesus cannot be Both and Arab and Black. Arabs are an ethnic group within the over all arch of the Caucasian racial type. (ie they are white people.) However they live in an area of the world that gets lots of sunlight so they are of Darker hue than your average Scandinavian. Much as the only Pure blood Aryans that Adolph used to rave about in his rather gross ignorance currently live in Pakistan and Iran and are not infrequently darker hued than Many African-Americans.

2nd Jesus was Arimaen. At this date we know almost nothing about that particular ethnic group But last I checked they weren't thought to be Arab or African by any scholars of significant repute which probably goes a long way to explaining why most main stream scholars don't talk about it.

Of course Jesus and for that matter the Jews were not light skinned Germans or Scandinavians but neither were they Africans.

3rd as to hair length, we cannot be certain. Why?
Because there is some scriptural evidence that he may have followed the way of the Nazerite which would have meant that cutting his hair was forbidden.

I'm not sure I understand the argument. Unless a Pope can be female, unless a woman can be a Rabbi woman, unless the Dali Lama can be an lady, how you can possibly argue that religion promotes equality of the sexes is beyond me. On the racial issue, surely you must jest. Do yo forsee a time when the Pope will be a woman? Do you sugges that Islam will allow women to be uncovered? Do you think that the next Dalai Lama will be female?

For a start, neither the Christian nor Jewish religion has yet to formally recognised that Jesus was an Arab - born at least, black propably. And yet we are having here in Australia an horrendously expensive "Youth Day" for Catholics, not Christians, to attend. The person chosen to play Jesus (Yeshua, actually, but that is a different issue) is white, anglo and certainly has no resemblance to Jesus as he would have existed at the time. But then, religion has never had any relation with the truth.

You claim that religion will exist, come what may. That may well be true so long as ignorance exists. You claim that religion can solve the problems of violence, bigotry, racism, sexism and division, when it is religion itself that has promoted these very things.

You are kidding yourself if you truly believe that ANY religion will resolve the ills of our society. Only honesty in that we, as humans, are responsible for our destiny will create some sort of peace.

There is no Yahweh, there is no God, there is no Allah, there is no Krishna, there is no Buddha, there is no Zeus, nor Jupitar, nor Isis, nor Aten, nor Ur nor any of those ethereal beings that in whom we are meant to believe because we fear death. After all, you can't all be right. Unless you believe that Jesus and Mohommad are sitting there side by side with God and/or Allah.

There is a saying by, I beleive, Oscar Wilde. "There has been no more blood spilled than that for the Kingdom of God".

The sooner our species disowns the witchcraft of the modern age, religion, the better our species will be.

Archaeologists have found the bodies...

Liora:

You're wasting your time trying to help Bgone. It's very generous of you to try to communicate with him, but I think he's beyond saving. Just read the posts. What do you think about what the Rabbi said, btw?

BGONE:
Once again, take it from my Black Jewish face:

BEGONE, Bgone. BEGONE

BEGONE:

I'm going to try very hard to give this another shot, assuming that you have the ability to comprehend.

Religion isn't the issue. If it were, then people like me, who do not observe would not be the victims of antisemitism. Even people who are of Christian heritage and don't observe continually speak hateful things not only to me, but to others of their "religious" heritage. So, for instance, it always amazes me that "white" Christians discrimnate against their darkly complected co-religionists whether or not either "race" is observant.

What does "everyone else" look like? Why are we continually subjected to racist speech on this web?

Here's another point. One of my ethnically Jewish friends is blond haired and hazle eyed. She does not "look Jewish." She has heard this all her life. Know why? People said antisemitic things to her face, and so she told them. That doesn't stop them, of course, so one has to speak to them as one does to you.

Reread Serena's post. Do you get it? It doesn't even matter what we look like. It's what people like you feel thay can say to us, do to us, that matters. It's that you are supposed to be our brothers and sisters that matters. Of the six million "Jews" murdered by Hitler, many were atheists. Many were Christians with a grandparent who was Jewish. Beginning with the inquisition, the Christians introduced the notion of sangre pura, pure blood. Hitler believed that out blood was impure. And that somehow we were all related, or knew each other. Not new. It began in the Middle Ages, and guess with whom?

So one hears things like the Jews control the economy, the Jews have too much power in this country. . . . Ironic, when "the Christians" observant or otherwise, overwhelm both houses of Congress (the Senate, curiously, is majority Catholic), the Supreme Court, etc., Exxon, British Petroleum, Microsoft, etc.

Do you hear how what I said just sounds?

Part of the problem is that you are uninformed on the subject. You can change that, but you seem to have some interest in remaining unknowledgeable. You seem to feel that claiming discrimination is some sort of privelege. If it weren't hateful, I would offer up to you all the discrimination I have suffered in my lifetime and all that I am to endure in the future.

There are different kinds of people. Denying them their identity, their existence is a hateful thing to do. We had a civil rights movement in this country.

I hope you chose to open your eyes. Thinking and behaving this way does not benefit you, my friend. It darkens your soul, hardens your heart, blinds you. Choose another path.

That making you feel 'saved,' yet, JJ?

Btw, folks... I suspect that if you think you're proving anything by cherry-picking history to whine how Islam must be worse than paranoid Christianity... you haven't the faintest idea how patient Jewish scholars are probably being with you.

And lepers. Gods know no witch-hunt was complete unless an accused leper and/or witch didnt, under highly-reliable 'extraordinary intelligence techniques' admit they were part of a conspiracy with the lepers and Jews to poison wells so the Muslims could come take whatever people in Europe thought they had.

"Those tribes were engaged in human sacrifice often of very young children or had been attacking Israel at a whim for several decades."

The same kinds of things were said of early Christians as are said of modern Pagans now, Gary.

Which would you like? All written words are true, or people say what they feel like, at any given time?

Liora:

You stereotype yourself by demanding to be recognized as a member of a group. Sorry, you look just like everyone else, different else your enemies would never recognize you.

Isn't enemy is the word? You're demanding to have them. With your mouth and your fists? Are your enemies real or imaginary?

There is no reality only perceived reality. Therefore your enemies are just a figment of your imagination. But then so are your friends. And me? I'm just your imagination going wild -in case you want to know where I am you can find me in your mind.

Oh yeah, the burning bush thing. I don't need to tell you about that but I will ask a question. With the kind of help your 'recognized' group has gotten from that being are you real sure that really was God? I won't even suggest IT didn't "choose" your race or religion, but will point out that IT seems to choose everyone without regard to race or religion and IT promotes racism and sexism through IT's books etc.

Religion is not the solution, it's the problem. You realize that's just my opinion? Am I entitled to an opinion?

Those tribes were engaged in human sacrifice often of very young children or had been attacking Israel at a whim for several decades.

"Religion should fight racism and sexism".

The Old Testament contains many exhortations from God to exterminate other tribes - they are clearly regarded as aliens, while the Isrealites are the chosen. Both the Old and New Testaments take slavery and male dominance for granted. There were no female prophets or disciples (to my knowledge).

By-the-book Judaism and Christianity support racism and sexism. To say that these religions should fight racism and sexism is to say that their foundations are false.

Religious people often claim that there can be no morality without religion. If opposition to racism and sexism is a major part of morality, then actually there can be no morality with Judaism and Christianity.

Rabbi:

Perhaps in your next essay, you could advise us how to deal with racists. I confess that at this point in my life, I agree with Serena and Liora.

Josh

wasn't at his I thought what effect we watched every my probably pulled

Serena:

You are right on all points. I hope you keep posting. There was an Iranian Jew named Farnaz who posted for awhile, but she seems to have taken a break. Anyway, she made the same point you did about "whiteness," Christianly speaking. I've made it myself countless times.

Thank you for your post.

Liora

Mavaddat writes:
Irwin Kula writes, "Can Religon Help Us Heal Fom Sexism and Racism?"

What does he mean by "fom"? Field operations manual? Does his religion have some kind of technical book about how to deal with sexism and racism???

WHAT COULD HE MEAN??!

I am assuming that this is not a rhetorical question, and so I will answer it. He is saying the opposite. First he is not talking about His religion; note, he uses the word "Religion," to signify that he means religion, in general, i.e., all religions.

His answer, unlike that of many clerics who write for this blog is NO. NO, it cannot. HIs point is that religion exists in a social context, a historical context. So, witness, for example, the three million Jews forcibly deported from MIddle Eastern countries in the last century, from Muslim countries. JUst an example.

BGONE:

It's difficult to answer all of your questions, since they seem to come from a common source, one that I don't wish to name, in part, to give you the benefit of whatever doubt remains.

First off, I don't know where you live,which creates a problem. Some of us, notably yours truly do look distinctly like an Eastern European Jews to anyone familiar with the group. Then there is the problem of last names, imposed upon us by the EuroChristians in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. If we "don't look Jewish" and are European Jews, then we can be distinguished by our last names by those familiar with them. Hence, here in New York City, where like Serena, I learned to use my mouth and fists in self-defense, I am recognizably Jewish. How I became such a fighter, I don't know. I only know that I learned three things from my father: Brotherhood, and you can't fight fire with a cup of water.

The first time I heard the words "The Jews killed Christ," I was eight. Both my parents worked for mere survival. There was no money for babysitters, so my six-year-old brother and I walked the block back from school, waiting for my terrified mother to come home, praying that we were all right. The day I was told "The Jews killed Christ" I was anxious for her to come home and tell me.

Well, she came home and I asked her about "The" Jews having killed Christ. She dropped her groceries which I helped her pick up, and didn't speak because she could not. Then she said it wasn't true and tried to explain anti-Jewish racism to me. I told her it was okay, I just wanted to know which Jews my would be tormenters were referring to. Which Jews? The refers to some people in specific, no? What does "The Jews" mean? (I would learn soon enough, from people like you, BGONE.)

That was neither my first nor last experience with Christian racism. My first occurred when I was five, but we'll skip that one. Suffice it to say they continue.

Hitler's racial insanity is well research. There tens of thousands of studies on it, but I don't have the time right now to give you a bibliography. You can easily do the research for yourself. I will say this: Some German Jews were indistinguishable from German Jews and German Catholics, although Hitler would never admit this. Hence he had to resort to Baptismal records to see who was a Jew.

But that is not the point. Appearance is not the point. Reread Serena's post. She's black and Jewish, but has had to deal with more bigotry from her Jewishness than from her blackness.

The idea that you equate the desire not to have to deal with discrimination with wanting special treatment defies logic. Quit stereotyping us, quite obsessing over us and deal with your own religious/ethnic/racial problems.

Your speech was violent. Your post was violent. It got the responses it deserves.

Stop whining.

"...Women, African Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, Jews, homosexuals, etc., are all in different and similar ways strangers in this country..."

The Native Americans were here first and had their own spirituality, social order, and traditions.

There were no indigenous African Americans, Hispanics, or Jews here; they were the uninvited strangers bringing unwanted beliefs and morality and forcing them on others.

Can't say I do. And I've heard a lot about it.

Don't much care to, either.

Whatever that story is, it appears to result in people thinking most of Northern Europe is gay and therefore shouldn't speak on the Internet.

*facepalm* I'm reliably informed that I forgot Poland again.

Do you *remember,* JJ, the name you called me, when knowing full well I was non-straight, Irish, and Pagan?

"World-view," you called me.

Remember?

Nothing's forgotten, Jacob.

What does your 'world view' look like *now,* JJ?

Look where you've come in a very short time.

The *world* hasn't changed that much. But what *you're* doing has.

Guess what. It's not the first time. Someone thinks they got the brightest blessing ever, and in short order they are saying things *just like you have.*

Some will tell you that hateful speech like that will reward you, Jacob. But where *are* you?

Any time you want to come back from that dark and frightened place you're in, now, JJ. Any time.

We'll be here.

I *told* you that all that 'seeing the one true Light' would eventually lead you to this...

Photon guy.

Tsk.

Oh, btw. I'll add that some bigots are very aware of what they think makes someone 'look' Jewish or queer or 'arab' or non-Christian.

It *doesn't* mean they're always right.

In fact, where there isn't a clear visual cue that people can identify a minority with, a lot of people who *don't* belong to that minority often get abused for 'looking like it,' (Actually, most victims of gaybashing are actually straight, for instance, and most victims of Muslim-bashing aren't actually Muslim. We're talking bigots, here, you think they're all manner of acute and discerning in the brainpan?)

This, if nothing else, makes it *everyone's* problem, not a matter of 'special rights.'

I assure you. I may not *look* that different from anyone else, but do you really think I don't have to really evaluate my legal standing every time someone with bureaucratic power or influence over my dear one's job asks pointed questions about my 'friend' and 'roommate?' or gives Christian prompts expecting Christian replies?

Do you think I'd even *know* about that kind of nuance if it weren't more then the triviality some try to make of it in defense of the status quo?

Give us a break.

"Does being Jewish entitle him, anyone to some special treatment, good or bad?"

I dunno, really, ...but I consider it a sign that progress is necessary when people call it a 'demand for special treatment' when a minority wants to be treated like anyone else.

Or oppose civil rights and anti-hate-crime legislation cause they believe bigotry *is* treating minorities like everyone else.

Even if, say, you have to cope with the effects of slander and defamation every day based on your religion and same-sex-partnership of five or ten or twenty or fifty years, and they call it 'wanting special rights' to expect your life to have equal right and liberty to those who DUI'ed their way to a Vegas wedding chapel and plunked down a twenty at a drive-thru chapel to get the 'sanctity of marriage.'

Yes, straight white Protestant Christian people get made fun of, too, but they don't have to fear for their jobs, housing, utility bills, health care, or even *lives* every time a bigot may feel entitled to mess with them.

Jokes are jokes. Not-funny is not funny.

And dignity is dignity.

Anti-discrimination laws (or simple politeness) aren't 'special rights' just because they guarantee *all* people's rights, even to those who think they can take em for granted right now.

Serena:

Once upon a time I worked with a Jewish partner on a project. About 3 months into it someone came by our station and made an anti-Jewish remark. I wondered why.

Partner looked at me with his big blue eyes and said, "I'm Jewish" to which I replied, "I didn't know that" and "why should I know that?" He said he looked Jewish with that telltale, "don't I?"

I challenged him to tell me how Jews look. About the third try, starting and then stopping realizing he was describing "regular" looking people he gave us and said, "maybe I should have told you" to which I could only wonder why I needed to be told. Does being Jewish entitle him, anyone to some special treatment, good or bad?

Maybe you can pick up and be successful where he failed. What do Jews look like? While you're at it please tell me why the Nazis made Jews wear identification badges if Jews are so recognizable.

Isn't the perception of "special treatment required for my group" the real problem that is being aired here as racism? Are you aware of any way to stop people from liking or disliking others regardless of why they do it?

Unless the government gets involved and forbids the use of certain passages in the Bible then religion is a real cripple when it comes to people being encouraged to not dislike, hate each other even. That would make the government an integral part of faith wouldn't it?

I contend that government is already neck deep in establishing religion and, religion isn't the solution, it's the problem. Of course a holy, absolute truth book made official by government that says slavery is OK and authorizes sexism is no help at all.

Which one is religion best suited to help end, racism or sexism? Neither and should butt out.

Irwin Kula writes, "Can Religon Help Us Heal Fom Sexism and Racism?"

What does he mean by "fom"? Field operations manual? Does his religion have some kind of technical book about how to deal with sexism and racism???

WHAT COULD HE MEAN??!

*with applause for Rabbi Panelist.*

Now, if only that could be soundbyted. :)

On this:

"identities that unlike my Jewish identity one can not conceal."

Well, not being *able* to conceal is one thing. The idea someone has the right to set things up for *having* to is really just part of the same problem.

Josh,

i hope one day, you shall not be cheated and sentenced, according to your holy scripture, and i hope one day, you shall not thank your god for being in the country you are in.

and i hope one day, you shall have realized what is to be addressed with pictures from holy scriptures, where silver and gold have been forgotten in the photos, though digital technology has been employed.

Gee gang. I think of myself as a one humanity type. However, I may have a flaw or two. I could be wrong about that.

Let's see if we can establish that discrimination is a good thing. Now there was the case of the equally qualified Jew and Nazi applicants. Which one should I hire? Should I toss a coin?

Then the opening came for the hostess position at my fine-diner. I have two applicants, a fat lady and a model. Which one is best for my business? Maybe they're not equal after all?

Is the NFL an equal opportunity employer? Do they discriminate or just save the lives of wimps?

GaryD et all. Are the details of job applicants beyond question? For anyone based upon anything? Are the details of faith beyond question? Is it bigoted to ask if that God or Devil Moses made the deal with? Please explain before you begin discriminating against those who suspect it was Devil.

I have a very open mind. Show some trivial evidence IT was God and I'll instantly fall upon my knees. Do you have an open or closed mind?

Bgone the problem isn't religion and in fact if you're a logical atheist - in my experience an oxymoron if their ever was one - The problem is as always man's inhumanity to man. Religion if one is an atheist can be no more than a convenient tool. And the tool is never responsible for what the tool user does with it.

Rafamdergem:

Kindly return to the psycho ward at your earliest convenience. Just go into any hospital emergency room, and they will take care of you. Bring a bilingual dictionary with you.

and as You see, Williams Bush, another name of mine is Williams Bush, literally.

my name has many dimensions, and it is a tool, You cannot like or dislike at the moment, for there are medicine in it, at the hospitals i am appointed.

Williams Bush

you are attacking your own family and brothers, you dont care for relations, you dont care for students at global classes and global teachers. you dont care all are common and you dont care what people know. just with a few movements, you shall come to unity.

your father has been slapped by Israel, stop, Williams Bush, stop! stop for the sake of your father, Williams Bush, for your family to have an apology and pardon.

Williams Bush

stop, for the sake of fish that come out of the sea with pearl in their mouths.

for the Sake of "Sea Hake's Pearl", Williams Bush, for the sake of St Anthuan and St Francisco, for the sake of St George Hizir and Moses.

Selam Rabbi,

"Can Religon Help Us Heal From Sexism and Racism?"

so the more we move the more we come closer to the question, Can Religon Help Us Heal From Seeking Faith and Being Homosexual, that are the vital subjects in the Book of Church?

raca : homosexuality
sexism : in seek of, not sure, uncomplete

any one with Islam are invited to leave all aside and come to "Hizir, GEorge" and Isaac, with Hebrew Ahmet prophet, Grandson of Abraham, to have the compassion and fresh breath, to be healthy and peaceful again, with sure-rendered teslimat.

sadr : lung
muktedir : potent, capable, qualified
mukteza : requirements, necessities

teslimat : courier package, to be peaceful
islam : peace
oxygen : compassion and Mary, with proxy
proxy-gene : mastery and fullfillment

Whoops! I meant to write, "Right on, Serena." Was thinking about another thread. Anyway, Right on!

Right on, Tina. I second the motion. BE GONE!!

ZAP!! POW!!

I won't say get lost, Bgone, because you're already far too gone already. Just BE GONE!

BGONE:

You are a bigoted moron who makes the Rabbi's point completely.

Where the Rabbi errs is in living in buying into the AmeriChristian whiteness lingo. However, if he wishes to remain in that confused realm of signification, so be it. As far as I'm concerned, no Jews are white, and I speak as a Jew.

Still, we are in the Christian US, and so I am an African American Jew. HELLO! And my problems being Jewish have been much more serious than my problems being Black. This, too, is where the Rabbi gets it wrong. My two closest friends are "white" (Christianly speaking) and Jewish. Like me, they have big mouths. Growing up, we all had big fists. The only way.

So Be gone, Bgone. BE GONE!

Rabbi, you said, "As a Jew, I know personally, from stories of my family’s immediate past and of my people’s historic past, the pain, vulnerability, and humiliation of the “ism” anti-Semitism and the consequent damage, anger, and resentment it has produced in my community." I see no reason to doubt that or know of any reasonable argument to the contrary.

Two things come to mind. What is the source? What is the cure? Actually, that is probably just one thing, the source that once understood will point to the cure.

How about, Is what it says the cause? That little chitchat Moses had with 'some' supernatural being that sure seems to live in the kind of fire that is unique to hell is a critical building block to being a Jew? Otherwise you, all Jews are just so many white folks who's ancestors came from somewhere else like everyone else, (native Americans came from Asia according to the experts).

Can't have that because it would make Jews ordinary? Is the problem that black folks don't want to be ordinary? Women too? Ever tell a woman she was ordinary? Does anyone want to be ordinary?

The ism you cure might be your own. To me that seems to be the one line that says it all when it comes to the dreaded ism thing. How did that song go, "not just some but everyone." Are we pointing our fingers at one group of people accusing them of doing isms?

Do white Anglo Saxon male Protestant Christians really have "it" made? All of them or just some of them? Anyone other than them have "it" made? What is "it" anyhow? Maybe I got "it" and then maybe not. But do I want "it."

You don't suppose Lucifer is behind isms do you? Baptism even? Surely not Americanism? The Torah says He's behind Judaism doesn't it? What does the evidence say? The biggest question of them all, was that really God in the burning bush? Then there is the obvious follow-up question, what are the consequences of calling Devil God?

Rabbi Kula, a very thought provoking article. Thank you