All Comments (27)

Aaaaaaaaah, don't be so hard on the brainwashed intellectually inferior creature. We women are just idiots, you know - Christian, Muslim or otherwise. It's true! The great pedophile Muhammed said so!!

i am further disappointed that ms. mattson has remained silent in response to the question of treatment of women in religion.

VICTORIA:

You failed to answer any of my questions, as far as the 72 virgins are concerned if Mohammed says it exists then all muslims should accept it. Are you saying you know better than Mohammed ?

Similarly if the countries implementing the sharia law (a law based on the quran) requires a death penalty for apostates then Islam is responsible inspite of what toledomuslims say.

Why should anybody choose the interpretation of toledomuslims and similar groups over the scholars of islam who devised these sharia laws ?

Also orders to kill disbelievers are sprayed all over the quran and that is exactly what Mohammed did.

If you really wish to discuss islam then join us here, except for personal attacks anything is allowed:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

perhaps you should go to an islamic site -
your information is false-

search 72 virgins in islam and youll discover it doesnt exist at all in the quran
go to toledomuslims and learn about apostasy

peace

INGRID:

Will you take up this challenge ?

http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm

I'm sure it'll be a good test for your new found faith.

VICTORIA:
a muslim will die to protect the dhimmi

Try this on people who don't know islam, will muslims die to protect an apostate of islam ?

muslims only die if they are assured of martyrdom so that they can enjoy their x-rated materialistic paradise with 72 houris and 28 pearly boys.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

Why must Christians and Jews live under an islamic government ?
Why cant they be part of the government ?

What about the hindus, buddhists, athiests and apostates of islam ? are they not humans too ?

what will be their plight under sharia based islamic government ?

Why are apostates of islam sentenced to death in countries implementing the sharia law ?

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

The People of Dhimma
Dhimmies, or the People of Dhimmas, are Jews and Christians who live under Islamic government. Unlike what many people think, Dhimma is not a derogatory term at all. In fact, the word Dhimma means promise. This is because these people are promised to live peacefully and be protected under Islamic law. In fact, Prophet Muhammad made this very clear in his Hadeeth [Prophetic statements]:
1. "Whoever harms a Dhimmi, then he has harmed me. Whoever harmed me, then he has harmed God" [Tabarani]
2. "Whoever harms a Dhimmi then I will be his opponent. Whoever I'm his opponent, I will defeat him on the Day of Judgment" [al-Khateeb].
3. "Whoever oppresses a person of contract [Dhimmi], or he takes some of his rights, or overburden him, or takes something from him without consent, then I will be his opponent on the Day of Judgment" [Abu Dawud].
The Muslims scholars expounded on these rules. For example, al-Qarafi, a Maliki [one branch of Islamic law] scholar said, "The contract of Dhimma necessitates responsibilities upon us because they [Jews and Christians] are in our protection, our promise, the promise of God, the promise of his Prophet, and the religion of Islam. So whoever attacks them even by an evil word, backbiting their honor, or any kind of harm, or he assisted in such, then he has forsaken the promise of God, His Prophet, and the religion of Islam" [al-Furooq]. Ibn Hazm, a Dhahiri [another branch of Islamic law] scholar, said, "If someone was under Dhimma law, and the enemy came to our land looking after him, then it becomes obligatory upon us that we come out and fight them and that we die before they get to him. This is to protect the person who is in the protection of God and His Messenger. To turn him to his enemy is negligence of the contract of Dhimma" [Maraatib al-Ijmaa'].

WELL THERE YOU HAVE THE TRUTH
a muslim will die to protect the dhimmi

ROSS here you go,now you know
The People of Dhimma
Dhimmies, or the People of Dhimmas, are Jews and Christians who live under Islamic government. Unlike what many people think, Dhimma is not a derogatory term at all. In fact, the word Dhimma means promise. This is because these people are promised to live peacefully and be protected under Islamic law. In fact, Prophet Muhammad made this very clear in his Hadeeth [Prophetic statements]:
1. "Whoever harms a Dhimmi, then he has harmed me. Whoever harmed me, then he has harmed God" [Tabarani]
2. "Whoever harms a Dhimmi then I will be his opponent. Whoever I'm his opponent, I will defeat him on the Day of Judgment" [al-Khateeb].
3. "Whoever oppresses a person of contract [Dhimmi], or he takes some of his rights, or overburden him, or takes something from him without consent, then I will be his opponent on the Day of Judgment" [Abu Dawud].
The Muslims scholars expounded on these rules. For example, al-Qarafi, a Maliki [one branch of Islamic law] scholar said, "The contract of Dhimma necessitates responsibilities upon us because they [Jews and Christians] are in our protection, our promise, the promise of God, the promise of his Prophet, and the religion of Islam. So whoever attacks them even by an evil word, backbiting their honor, or any kind of harm, or he assisted in such, then he has forsaken the promise of God, His Prophet, and the religion of Islam" [al-Furooq]. Ibn Hazm, a Dhahiri [another branch of Islamic law] scholar, said, "If someone was under Dhimma law, and the enemy came to our land looking after him, then it becomes obligatory upon us that we come out and fight them and that we die before they get to him. This is to protect the person who is in the protection of God and His Messenger. To turn him to his enemy is negligence of the contract of Dhimma" [Maraatib al-Ijmaa'].

Posted January 6, 2007 9:09 AM

SO MUSLIMS WILL FIGHT AND DIE TO PROTECT THE DHIMMI SEE?

who else will die to protect muslims?
wouldnt it be wonderful if non- uslims had the same selflessness and love of their fellow human
peace

here is the concept of dimmis from the true islamic perspective

The People of Dhimma
Dhimmies, or the People of Dhimmas, are Jews and Christians who live under Islamic government. Unlike what many people think, Dhimma is not a derogatory term at all. In fact, the word Dhimma means promise. This is because these people are promised to live peacefully and be protected under Islamic law. In fact, Prophet Muhammad made this very clear in his Hadeeth [Prophetic statements]:
1. "Whoever harms a Dhimmi, then he has harmed me. Whoever harmed me, then he has harmed God" [Tabarani]
2. "Whoever harms a Dhimmi then I will be his opponent. Whoever I'm his opponent, I will defeat him on the Day of Judgment" [al-Khateeb].
3. "Whoever oppresses a person of contract [Dhimmi], or he takes some of his rights, or overburden him, or takes something from him without consent, then I will be his opponent on the Day of Judgment" [Abu Dawud].
The Muslims scholars expounded on these rules. For example, al-Qarafi, a Maliki [one branch of Islamic law] scholar said, "The contract of Dhimma necessitates responsibilities upon us because they [Jews and Christians] are in our protection, our promise, the promise of God, the promise of his Prophet, and the religion of Islam. So whoever attacks them even by an evil word, backbiting their honor, or any kind of harm, or he assisted in such, then he has forsaken the promise of God, His Prophet, and the religion of Islam" [al-Furooq]. Ibn Hazm, a Dhahiri [another branch of Islamic law] scholar, said, "If someone was under Dhimma law, and the enemy came to our land looking after him, then it becomes obligatory upon us that we come out and fight them and that we die before they get to him. This is to protect the person who is in the protection of God and His Messenger. To turn him to his enemy is negligence of the contract of Dhimma" [Maraatib al-Ijmaa'].

there is the meaning- that muslims will fight and die to protect them-
pretty insidiuos isnt it

INGRID:

If you so concerned about the seperation of the state and religion then perhaps you should take a look at the islamic nations. Atleast the US and other non muslims countries do not have this concept of dhimmi's.

If you or any muslim is interested in a serious debate or discussion then please visit us at
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

i just reread all these posts-

in defending one ister- you start out by attacking another- the first thing you said to me is WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?

ive tried to respond with real conversation-
you respond with more and more aggressive judgements

do you even remeber what upset you?
read it again, is it that bad?

your last post showed me that you actually havent even read what i posted but reacted before you even understand-

you base the entire paragraph on the fact that i asked where are the moderate muslims?

read it again!

i said IT IS ASKED OF ME!!

NOQW I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU WERENT EVEN REPONDING TO ANYTHING I SAID BUT WHAT YOU ERRONEOUSLY IMAGINED

look at this post- there is not anyone on it but a trite bickering which should never have happened

if ms mattson cared- she would say something wouldnt she?

it is silly for you to attack one sister who is actively engaging you with respect- in preference to another who doesnt care enough to answer

at least i am polite enough to respond to human beings even if their first response to me is not so nice-
and what is your prolem is something i dontsay to anyone anytime especially not for something so silly

heather i really dont know why you are even bothered about what i think-

you skimmed what i wrote and i read carefully what you wrote

i did not say I ASK who the moderate muslims are- i said it is ASKED OF ME

if you missed this basic simple point- the rest of your judgement is based off what you didnt get because you read too fast

this is all missed opportunity

read it again because from your reply you didnt read it in the first place none of it is as bad as you imagined

mercy

Victoria:

I read your last entry, and I came to a simple conclusion.

First, let me say that based on your own definitions sighted on the meaning of indigenous,I would invite you to look at the historical migration of those called "Native American."

Second, it is troubling to me that you need to ask about who the moderate Muslims are, and still feel compelled to voice your opinion about the only Muslims putting themselves on the line in the public. It bespeaks a lack of transcendence to Islamic principles of Asibiya and a stifled rut-stuck thinking of Jahiliyah - that of the secular mainstream.

The conclusion I came to is this will be my last response to your comments. I have tried to provide you with some basic Naseeha, and it has fallen on deaf eyes. And I discovered reading these responses of yours is not adding to my faith. So, it is a futile exercise to continue.

You are wrong about judgement. When someone puts their ideas into the public forum as you suggest and they are wrong in a moral or Islamic sense, it should be pointed out to them. But, the only difference in my approach with a Muslim would be that it should be done in private not at the cost of the Ummah whatever that cost however major or minor may be.

Peace and Blessings Be Upon You.

well its easy- i feel passionate about many things and islam is one of them. you can search my name here and look at my other posts- ill decide for myslef what is appropriate. im saddened by lack of passion and lukewarm responses-

ms. mattson has put herself willingly in a public forum- so it is not reasonable to expect there to be no response.

i am very honest and forthcoming in my views-
and im allowed to feel disappointment also.

since the post is specifically and pointedly about america- it seems one should know a tiny bit about that of which they speak.

i DO expect more because it reflects on all muslims- when i constantly field the question "why dont moderate muslims speak out?" where can i refer them?
its a prime opportunity to speak intelligently and pointedly and obviously no one else has been moved enough to even respond.

i think there is your answer.

honestly- my post was pretty innocuous.
why are you so bothered by it?

and you disrespect your own heritage if you dont
at least let the native americans have their identity as the only indigenous people here, because they are.

in·dig·e·nous /ɪnˈdɪdʒənəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-dij-uh-nuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa.
2. innate; inherent; natural (usually fol. by to): feelings indigenous to human beings.
[Origin: 1640–50; < L indigen(a) native, original inhabitant (indi-, by-form of in- in-2 (cf. indagate) + -gena, deriv. from base of gignere to bring into being; cf. genital, genitor) +

again- if you put yourself on purpose in the public arena- of course you dont expect everyone to agree with you-
unless of course that really IS what you want- and thats the feeling i get from such a post-
its all about intention-

and i really can imagine this being put in a brochure maybe the next time the isna vote comes along.

but this is a faith forum-
and if you have a faith why mitigate it to be popular? that i guess is why i was not bleating my approval.

as is my right and your right-
i have nothing to say about what you think because in reality- its not my right to judge you.
peace

Victoria:

There are indigenous Muslims all around you, and maybe you haven't noticed, but all the caucasin and african-american Muslims are indigenous. If that does not suit your definition than at least myself and my husband can be counted among the indigenous as we both have Cherokee blood running through our veins as well as our other ancestral heritage. As well as probably most of the people who claim to be white or black have some native american ancestory.

Again, I disagree with you. There are a variety of understandings in our midst among the sisters. Insha'allah, we all have the same basic beliefs, but beyond that I would not put Dr. Mattson in the same camp as a Aminah Wadud. Nor would I put Aminah Wadud in the same camp as Aminah McCloud. I hope you can see my point here. It is frankly shameful that you would reduce such a sister publicly as a "yes woman."

I am surprised at how little attention you continue to give to the reality of your lack of loyalty.Not everything we feel should be expressed out in open internet space. Some things are better either expressed in private giving others respect and dignity to which they are entitled, others are best not expressed at all.

And for something that was just a "disappointment," WOW! I would hate to see what you would say about soomething you felt passionate about.

its just a disappointment thats all- its such a wonderful opportunity for a sister to speak up and describe islam as a potent and vialble lifestyle and address the many misconceptions- its just a sad missed opportunity- we have enough politicians.
also i have never met an indigenous muslim in america and i worked for several years in the native american community. and in islam- truly- it doesnt matter if we have an african american or white canadian- we are all sisters and will have similar messages. i was just so hopeful for some strenghth of conviction. just saying "no" is not even any kind of answer at all. one can be strong and represent their religion and still be most politic and considerate. ive been doing it all over this site and this is the worst ive expressed myslef-because i felt the sister should know we need her strenghth and guidance not more yes women-peace

Vicotria:

I respectfully disagee with you.

This is her answer. This is how Dr. Mattson would answer this question.

To say that one would wish to have other Muslim women represented and their opinions shared is not only a wish shared by me, but important.

To, however, expect Dr. Mattson to encapsulate all the abundant personalities of the Muslim women in the Ummah would be a real false expectation.

Just as I look forward to reading Victoria as Victoria means to be represented, I also expect to see Dr. Mattson's comments reflective of her particular personality. And, I think they are.

If you want to see others represented write Sally Quinn who put this together. I have. Of course, I did not receive a response, but you might. It would be nice to see other personalities represented.

It would be especially nice to see a Muslim sister of color represented on this site since the largest group of Muslims in this country are indigenous and African-American.

its harldly a tirade heather-

its just empty of content- there is not one instance of finding commonalities between christianity and islam- there is simply nothing edifying- she says shes convinced by the scholarship shes read that america is not a christian nation- but doesnt go on to answer the question at all.
its a feel good piece and thats fine- but i was hoping for something compelling from the only
muslim woman on the panelist committee.

Hmm... I wish, I pray that more Christians will come to understand Islam as well as Dr Mattson understands Christianity.

It is a blessing from our founding fathers that Dr Mattson can follow her faith where it takes her and not have to toe the line of the official state church!

Vicotria:

I read your comments and wondered what is your problem? I have read your comments on other dialogues on this site and presume you in fact are a Muslim. So I am confused by you tyraid on Dr. Ingrid.

Her point here is aimable. We do not always need to be divisive. It is not always the path to take to be critical of what one says, but rather look at the benefit of it.

Dr. Ingid is clearly attempting to educate others in the commnalities between Muslims and Christians, and as you can see by the comments made there is clearly a need for education.

Not everything that is said in this world and medium of internet has to be like the press and be salacious and shocking-like. It can be a message of peace and bridge-building and still be just as important as all those who seem to rather prefer "if it bleeds it leads."

She is only taking the way of the Prophet (sws). Remember the Prophet stood for the funeral procession of a passing deceased Jewish person, because why? Because Allah gave a life and took it away. To say that Dr. Matteson is simply recognizing the same thing in a different way. Christians share common values with us and she is simply acknowledging and recognizing it.

It would be better if you had just been supportive and said thank you than attacking her for trying to do what most people have not even attempted to do.

And I honestly, as she openly admits, do not agree her historical understandings of America. But,that is alright because she is a proud Canadian so I do not hold her accountable for that.

It is good that we have a woman putting herself on the line and in the line of fire and taking the heat for Muslims.

Thanks Ingrid.

phaedrus- would you mind enumerating some of the disharmonies between the actions of the Prophet(pbuh) and christianity?
i dont say this to start an argument but to enable my own thinking process.
i have not found these incongruities myself, but it is always good to see things from anothers perspective

respectfully and with peace

You write:

"Those are not uniquely Christian values, but Christianity has helped ground these values -- which are in harmony with my values as a Muslim -- in American culture."

I can acept that these might be "your" values, and I respect you for holding them. But, I have difficulty accepting that these values are in harmony with a great number of things Muhammed said and did in his life, as depicted in the Quran and Hadiths. I think that it is more accurate to say that you hold these values "despite" being a Muslim. This would then imply that you adhere to these values for other reasons, maybe none of which have to do with relgion? After all, few, if any, of what are referred to as "Christian" values are originally or uniquely christian.

this sounds like a public relations release, not an intelligent comment

this post sounds like a hallmark greeting card.
its empty of all substance and reads like a public relations release. its blandness is exceeded only by its pandering. so, why exactly is it NOT a christian nation?
its so politic a statement that no one could be offended- but certainly no one could possibly be edified.

i wish your Muslim brethren in the Middle East were as tolerant as you are.

Oh Boy do I agree with this statement! However if the reverse was true (muslim majority), I would be the first person + my family to leave this place. We have lived elsewhere and let not hear about tolerance