groucho42, one of the first philosophers to ever teach seperation of church and state was a man by the name of Ibn Rushd, a Muslim philosopher and Jurist; under the basis that if the church and state intermingle too much, religion will become subserviant to the state, and the state will change and corrupt religion to support itself, and force religion to do its bidding. So, as the article stated, and as Ibn Rushd elaborated, it would be clear that Islam does indeed promote secularism, according to at least several major trains of thought. I also believe if I am correct, that the majority of majority-Islamic countries today, are secular in nature.

Also, the Caliph you refer to was al-Hakim the Mad, a notable exception from the Fatimid Caliphates tolerance, as they were known to have Jewish and Christian Grand Viziers and top officials, put in position solely due to merit. Also, Christians were never denied the use of the holy sites in the Levant; that was just an excuse for the Crusades, the same Crusades which killed many Christians and Jews in Jerusalem (Most Christians in Jerusalem were heretics according to the Catholic Church) and later sought to eliminate heresy in Europe with crusades and assaults on the Cathars and other groups.

I love the continued ability of people to rationalize away Jihad. The "Crusades" popped up again below. Why'd the Crusades happen? Because the Muslims invaded the Holy Land and slowly continued to restrict Christian access to their holiest sites.

Well, not just restrict. The Caliph (the combined religious and political head, as per Islam's clear statement that there is no separation of church and state) that controlled North Africa and the Middle East, in 1009 AD, ordered the destruction of EVERY SINGLE Christian church and Jewish synagogue. It was done, that's why the Church of the Sepulcher and other key sites of today are not original. A few years later, the dhimmis were allowed to rebuild their religious building through bribes to the Caliph that let him look the other way past the clear Koran and Hadith passages that said no new non-Muslim houses of worship could be built.

As bad as the Crusades were, they were in direct response to Islamic Imperialism -- Jihad.

As for the Holocaust, get real. When Muslims invaded the land that was Israel, they documented how many Jews were there, 50,000 in Ceasaria alone. Not many years later, they were bragging about how few remained.

Muslims in North Africa demanded Jews wear distinctive yellow articles of clothing long before the Nazis required the Star of David.

The leading Muslim religious figure from Jerusalem is renowned for visiting Hitler, telling him to kill all the Jews, and organizing SS troops in the Balkans. In exchange for that favor, Egypt allowed Nazi war criminals to live there, and from those Nazis came the first Arabic translations of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

The history is Christianity and Islam are both violent. The difference is simple:
1) Those violent Christians directly violate the word of their 1/3 god Jesus.
2) Those violent Muslims directly follow the word of their prophet Mohammed.

That's why it's harder to change Muslim thought than Christian thought.

What is the matter jbboy, are you fresh out of arguments?

Jbboy, the thesis of this article is that secularism is part and parcel of Islam. And my contention was that it is not so. My citing the example of Turkey as the sol exception was also qualified by the fact that it was imposed by Ataturk by an iron grip and not an consensual outcome of the people or the religious elite. Then I made the point that if the secularism was ingrained in Islam, there would have been no need for division of India, thirdly I also pointed out that contrary to the repeated assertions by the islamic apologists that under islam there is no duress of religion there indeed is lot of duress and cited the Malaysian laws requiring conversion. Mind you Malaysia is touted as a multi-cultural and tolerant society. The issue on hand is not India nor its shortcomings. Please do not conflate this into some kind of Indopak debate. If you wish to buttress the authors position by all means do it. Discussing Indian affairs is pointless.

I also pointed out that if the authors were to make the case that secularism is intrinsic to islam, over there in any muslim country they will have their head handed to them. if you wish to argue those points well and good else the readers will go away with the understanding that these authors are making false claims. Do you have any other supporting evidence beyond the silly unsubstantiated truth claims by the authors part?

Secular; Since you so nicely listed all the "violence" in the Muslim countries, can you please comment on the violence permutated by the Hindus in India against Sikhs, Christians and Muslims? I am pretty sure you are aware of the Barbary mosque incident? the Gujrat riots? the raid on the Golden Temple? The Sikh massacres of the 1980s? I can understand the racism of the west against Islam since it is mostly due to ignorance but when a person from Hyderabad spews such hatred it just makes me wonder why Pakistan was created, to keep make us Muslims away from the hatred of the Hindus, that you clearly seem to posses

Rori1, you wrote "This article is very good since the first word may Muslim tell to anther person is 'Salam 3alikm" which means peace.
Please note that Islam religion belief depends on Love and respect of all other religions since in Holy Quran, there is respect and love for all prophets such as Issa and Moses".

Really, why then there was so much mayhem when the mullahs from Denmark started to peddle the Cartoons with their own two of them added. If Islam is so peaceful a religion, why is that almost every muslim majority country was up rioting and burning western icons in a rampage. If the west was as bigoted as the islamic countries are the embassies of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc would have been burnt down by now. The fact that people are writing about it instead of rioting about it shows the stark difference between the two cultures. I find it utterly grotesque and bigoted about folks who are complaining about the critics, when they had done nothing about the riots. If you can find time to condemn every little affront, then you certainly have time to condemn the riots. When you did not do that then you are at least enabling the bigots in islamic countries.

Continued from below

Besides the thesis of the authors is that secularism is part of islamic tradition. If that was the case then there was no need for a muslim Pakistan. The facts of the past 63 years actually show that muslims of all stripes are better off in India, than in Pakistan. The first issue was resolved in a bloody manner in 1971. Now not a friday passes in Pakistan when a Shia mosque or an Ahmedi mosque is bombed. Even the muslims themselves are persecute in Pakistan. The fact that even a smaller minority muslim population in secular India is thriving. Think about if it was an undivided India, the Muslim population would have made a greater % of the population consequently less discrimination. The current state of affairs proves your founding fathers totally wrong.

Coming to the lower caste Hindus inter marrying goes there more cases of that happening without any hitches. Yes there are too many where the higher caste folks prvent it by all means, that cannot be denied and a blight. However, it is not a state sanctioned thing. The state has not compelling interest in the inter-caste or inter-faith marriages. That is not true in any muslim country.

I concede that constitutionally there can be no restriction of building the mosque. However, it is being tone deaf on part of muslims to not realize that there is bound to be outrage. Take the Danish cartoon affair, six months after teh fact there was a fake outrage prodded on by the mullahs from Denmark in other countries. Similarly with South Park and the Draw a Mo day. Did M Reuf & Ms. Daisy Khan express any outrage against the bigots in the muslim world? I guess not. However, when the issue of the mosque came up they are outraged. When you exhort tolerance and constitution here, isn't it incumbent upon you folks to also foster tolerance in your native lands. I don't mean that you have to go on and condemn every little transgression. But there is none at all that is what the people are outraged here. I had pointed out the temple in Dubai case. Ms Pamela Taylor, muslim guest author on this blog was outrgade about the mosque issue. When i pointed out the above, all she could muster is that she is prepared to sign any petition for temples in muslim world. That was such a cop out. She could not bring herself to condemn the muslim countries for their lack of hospitality towards non-muslims. That is what we are all outraged about. I hope you can see the point here. If the islamic countries were allowing freedom for other religions and remove apostasy laws, people here would not be so outraged. Constitutionally there is no demand for reciprocity, however from fairness point of view there needs to be some reciprocity.

JBBOY, you said, "Secular; Nicely done, but you "forgot" to mention that when the Nawab of Hyderabad decided to join Pakistan the Indian army went and occupied hyderabad. Indians, have managed to market themselves as the good guy in this whole India-Pakistan thing. But Indians can't fool pakistanis since we're well aware of the Indian baggage. Maybe you should also mention that within Hindus, one can't marry in the other caste or that the lower hindus are usually referred to the "untouchables" "

1) I am from Hyderabad, so I know the details of that. There are several problems with your argument:

1.a) It was not a Nawab, but Nizam of Hyderabad. He did not sign any articles of ascension giving abdicating the sovereignty to Pakistan.
1.b) The whole genesis of the Pakistan was to carve out Muslim Majority areas as part of Pakistan. Hyderabad was not a Muslim majority kingdom. It was a Hindu majority one. So Pakistan had no legal claims to it at all.
1.c) As it is Pakistan of 1947 was a geographical anomaly, with two sections with only connection was via the sea.

1.d) Erstwhile Hyderabad was completely landlocked and there was no way there could be any connection even via the sea even.

1.e) There were many an atrocities being committed by the Hyderabadi nobility called Razakars, at the time. So there was police action to suppress the razakar atrocities.

Secular; Nicely done, but you "forgot" to mention that when the Nawab of Hyderabad decided to join Pakistan the Indian army went and occupied hyderabad. Indians, have managed to market themselves as the good guy in this whole India-Pakistan thing. But Indians can't fool pakistanis since we're well aware of the Indian baggage. Maybe you should also mention that within Hindus, one can't marry in the other caste or that the lower hindus are usually referred to the "untouchables"

Its amazing there are only two kinds of people hung up on sharia law, 1) the extremists nut jobs and 2) neocon/GOP wing nuts. For the rest talk of Sharia law is but a propoganda tool used by these two sides for their own ends.

This article blatantly falsifies the historical record of the Islamic governance for the past 13 centuries. Turkey has been the only secular majority islamic state in the history of islam. This was due only due to the legacy of Kemal AtaTurk. He was a dictator who saw islam for it was and he took on an a very proactive approach to dismantle Caliphate. However, it was done with an iron fist.

IF the authors' thesis is correct then why was Pakistan created in the first place at all. Why were there no Islamic scholars presenting the material these authors presented in this article, back in 1940s. No body presented it because this whole thing is a very scheming and artful quote mining. Again that should also undermine the entire Kashmir issue. Because Maharaja of Kashmir had signed the articles of accession to India. As the reigning monarch he transferred the sovereignty to secular India, end of discussion. Why don't these authors go to their native Pakistan and try to dissuade the people their that it is Haram to agitate against indian authorities. They won't do that, because that will be signing their own death fatwas. The reason is these authors did a artful quite mining from Koran, without the context. In fact often muslims complain that the critics are quoting material from hadith's and Koran out of context. The fact of the matter is these authors are the one who are citing Koran totally out of context. They would not dare publish this article in any seriousness in any muslim country.

Even in a so called liberal Malaysia a non-muslim marrying a muslim has to convert to islam without regard to geneder. This is by civil law. If there was a real separation of state and Mosque, why is there such a law. These are all false information being provided to hoodwink the American liberals. I am really saddened to say that my fellow liberals are simply playing into the propaganda.

If this is true, then why there has never been real democratic state in Muslim countries in 15 centuries? Turkey came close to that because Kamal Attaturk took Islam out of the picture. He even replaced the Arabic Alphabet with Latin.

Ali Alyami, Center for Democracy and Human Rights in Saudi Arabia, Washington, DC

This discussion is truly disheartening. I thought this country stood for indiscrimination based race, religion, or creed. Hell, even I thought this country had an Amendment to the Bill of Rights that addressed the issue. I guess those all represent ideas though, not actual practice. I find it interesting to read about all the assumptions on this discussion. Just because you looked up Taqiyya on Wikipedia does not make you an expert on how the context is used in. I also find it interesting that Americans can’t seem to differentiate between radical and the orthodox practice of Islam. My understanding is that the planned Mosque near ground zero will be roughly two blocks away, is being built on private land, and is to also serve as an interfaith community center. What better than to have a religious intuition established that practices its orthodox religion and promotes interfaith awareness? To me it seems advantageous for NY to embrace an Islamic interfaith center near ground zero as it serves to 1) Dispel American perceptions on Islam, and 2) Stands as a symbol of orthodox Islam, thus invalidating the perverted religion held by those who carried out the 9/11 attacks.
Two final points. First, If we ban the construction of the Mosque near ground zero, what would the appropriate distance for a mosque to be constructed? Do we ban all mosques from being built in NY city? If so why don’t ban Japanese investments in Hawaii? (A different parallel, but still relevant) Second, its in accurate to compare American standards to that of other countries. Just because a Muslim country bans a church doesn’t mean America needs to adopt the same principles. Let’s not forget that the first country to recognize United States independence in 1787 is our ally and Muslim nation of Morocco.

I am baffled as to why American Muslims have to justify BAD decisions and governing made by dictators in other muslim countries? Why should American Muslims have to be punished for how other Muslim countries such as Saudi or Pakistani treat Christians. Intolerance of Christianity (and other religions) in these countries need to be exposed and condemned for what it is. But American Muslims should not be held responsible for that.

Having said that, I think American Muslims should do a 'better' job at equally exposing and condemning Islamic terror groups. (Of course, I am cringing writing that sentence because I am asking them to justify to us.)

I don't understand some of the comments. "Leave America", "Go somewhere else". Since when did religion become a requirement to live here? I thought it was the other way.

I am not a Muslim and so I cannot begin to understand the plight of law-abiding Muslims. But aren't 'religious freedom' and 'innocent until proven guilty' two of the pillars that makes America what it is?

I don't see Catholics being told to go home because Catholic priests abused kids all over the world.

And for those who talk about the teachings in the 'Koran', have we forgotten the Christian book saying 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'? Or that only when everyone on earth is converted to Christian then earth will become heaven (or something like that.) I would rather take inspiration from the bible that says 'judge not others lest you be judged' (or something like that).

The 'real' offenders should be brought to justice. They are a threat to our society and need to be 'made ineffective'. But wishing to get rid of people of a certain group because some others of a similar group far away are terrorists, is very UN-American.

Unless we can separate a person from his 'group', we shall repeat history. BAD history. And without tolerance for law-abiding citizens of other 'groups' we may as well be the animals.

I think the people that founded America on great principles would be rolling in their graves for what is being done in their name.

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The equally relevant question is whether one can be a genuinely committed Christian and "fully American". Despite the militaristic and jingoistic plumage of the Religious Right, there's nothing in Scripture to support the idea that the United States is any more important than any other group of human beings on this world.

Nice try WPO but the Ahmadis are considered infidels and heretics by so-called "true" Muslims.They are not considered Muslims and are subject to persecution. Some were recently murdered in Pakistan.The same Islamic Pakistan where Christians and Hindus have been murdered. That is the true intolerant ugly face of Islam.

" To take advantage of American freedoms,(ie: building a mosque where it is vigorously opposed , just because it's legal), without being grateful for them is hypocritical and against the teachings of Islam."

" Thus, spreading any type of discord, (ie: creating a firestorm of protest all across America and distress for the victims of 911, when 19 muslims murdered 3000 Americans in the name of Islam), is absolutely anti-Islamic. "

"The history of Islam has no equivalent to the barbaric Crusaders' wars, no Inquisition,no holocaust, no en masse slavary"

Only a moron or a liar would write that garbage. An educated person could never make that statement.

Let's not forget this is more of a political movement than a religion. The political movement uses the religion as cover. It is also an anti-American political movement. That is the real reason for the burqa and the head scarf in western society. America is at war with this Muslim political movement. Can you imagine people walking around in German uniforms or erecting swastika sculptures in Washington during WWII?

Muslims in this country are a tiny minority and their public pronouncements need to be understood in that context. If Muslim governments in the Middle East and elsewhere would make the similarly reasonable pronouncements, I might be more inclined to accept the analysis of Mangla and Ahmad at face value. But the fact is that Muslim governments and religious authorities have a long historical record of brutality and intolerance toward competing religions in lands they control. Islam is not a relgion of tolerance. It is a religion based on conquest.

The Qu'ran can be read to say anything anyone wants it to say. It's important that Americans judge Muslims in their midst by their actions and not their words.

Muslims in this country are a tiny minority and their public pronouncements need to be understood in that context. If Muslim governments in the Middle East and elsewhere would make the similarly reasonable pronouncements, I might be more inclined to accept the analysis of Mangla and Ahmad at face value. But the fact is that Muslim governments and religious authorities have a long historical record of brutality and intolerance toward competing religions in lands they control. Islam is not a relgion of tolerance. It is a religion based on conquest.

The Qu'ran can be read to say anything anyone wants it to say. It's important that Americans judge Muslims in their midst by their actions and not their words.

I thought that Muslim was a religion and American was a nationality. Isn't that sort of like saying can you be a Republican and an Idahoan?

Choosing phrases from Koran to submit your saying is totally hypocritical. You can find all sorts of phrases in Koran especially some that Muslims will not like us to find.
Secondly Islam and Secularism are 2 words that don't stick together. I think I have an acceptable knowledge of Islam and I don't think Muslims become Americans or German, French etc. until the modernize their religion and choose a 21st century Islam. Not a religion unchanged since centuries ago.

The title of this is misleading. Secularism and Islam are mutually exclusive. You cannot pretend that the vision of an international caliphate is not a fundamental part of Islam. You may have no way of acting on this vision in the US but the lack of opportunity does not mean the lack of belief.

If you want to find out if being a full Muslim and a full American are possible ask the following question:

As a believer in the infallibility and divine origin of the Quran how do you reconcile:

The fact that female witness testimony is worth half of a mans in a country that has three women on the Supreme Court.

The fact that a husband should be able to beat his wife in a nation with strict domestic abuse laws.

The fact that a female child inherits half of what her brother does when probate laws are gender neutral.

The fact that adulterers should be stoned to death in a nation that recognizes the right to privacy.

I could go on and on but I really want to know how Muslims stay true to their absolute belief in the Quran and living in a liberal democratic society. You are faking it either way you look at it-either not a true Muslim or not a true American. If you are a true Muslim I don't think you belong in the USA.

Remove them from that area immediately. NO MOSQUE!! NO WAY!!

Ismat and Anees, after reading your article and all the comments, no one was able to disprove that the Islamic jiyzata tax imposed to the nonbelievers was unfair, leading to the conclusion that your Prophet Muhammad was unfair. Also none of you have been able to prove that there a just creator and supreme being, while the presence of many species of obligate predators proves the opposites.

Bill22042:
"Typical misdirection from those who stand to gain. NO, NO, NO to a mosque at ground zero."

It won't be *at* ground zero, but keep tilting at those windmills.

You think you know who these people are ? Read todays Online article in the New York Times on our country's erstwhile Muslim ally - Pakistan - and how their ISI have been so loyal that they assist the Taliban and Al Quaeda to kill American troops.

Someone needs to open a pork BBQ right next to this.

I cannot believe this thread. nearly ALL the posts are offensive, and dripping with hatred. where are these "people" from? they also have a tenuous grasp of facts. the mosque is already there, NEAR the site of the attacked towers.the worshippers of that mosque have obtained a zoning permit to expand the mosque. end of story.New Yorkers for the most part understand this.

I'm old enough to remember that this was considered to be an important issue when John Kennedy ran for President. But the religion in question was Catholicism, and probably with better cause. Islam does not have one person at its head who is supposed to be the infallible representative of God on earth. Somehow we survived having a Catholic president.

het asizk, your idiotic response proves my point. Primitive islami quotes, "false witness", etc, you things are still in the dark ages. What in my post makes you think I am a fan of these Ahmadi's anyway? The article is so devoid of reality and logic it proves the authors are primitive, tribal types. Just because they haven't blown anyone up yet, doesn't mean they should live in the US. Why don't you muslims live somewhere else and enlighten them?

ASIZK:"there is no prophet after me;" Why? allah ran out of prophets? Or the guy didn't want any competition? What a load of BS! You want us to swallow this crap? Good luck.

NO! I don't believe it is possible. Prior to 911 I didn't feel any anomosity toward Muslims. Now I do. When Muslin nations permit Christians and Jews to live free in their States and worship openly in their States and when they openly repudiate the teachings of the Koran that require Christian and Jews to convert or at best be second class citizens...maybe even give up their lives, then I'll rethink the whole thing. 911 is far to fresh in my memory. The sight of bodies hurling themselves from the World Trade Center buildings and the Islamic masses in the Middle East cheering the destruction are far to fresh in my mind. This may not be politically correct, but it is the way I feel.

"The history of Islam has no equivalent to the barbaric Crusaders' wars, no Inquisition,no holocaust, no en masse slavary"

It has all these things in its history. Start from modern times and work you way backwards, say with the execution of the Syrian ambassador's relative for being a witch for Inquisition, the African slave trade, all the way back to the mandatory execution of babies of black African slaves for holocaust and the Islamic crusaders invasion of Europe.

Islam and the Quran decreed obying ONLY and ONLY legitiamte rpt legitimate Muslim authirty and not despots and dictators as we now have in most of the Arab/Muslim world;who for example elected the saudi "king" and the "presdient" of Egypt? Are these legitimate rulers?????????? Ask the people of Arabia and Egypt.

Unfortunately, watching history unfold is like watching paint dry in super slow motion. It is quite obvious that if the Muslim community here in the USA does not push back, and I mean push back really hard on their radical brothers, there will no doubt be a Spanish Inquisition redux here in America. If not, and we just let them continue to let their radical wing infest us like termites, there won't be an exterminator strong enough to stop them. At that point, either go buy a prayer rug and face it toward Mecca, or buy a burial plot. Game over.

jailkkhosla,

Well..well..here u come agian with your delibrate distortions of facts about Islam and Muslims:"Muslims robbing caravans..." U should be ashamed of yourself:to protect private property and personal security Islam decreed the cutting off the hands of thievs and robbers-which does not go well with your lies. Give us one credible source for your false information.

U always insist on advertising your bigtory and ignorance on similiar threads-and no one belives u.

The Covenant of Medina authored by the Prophet Muhammad in 624 AD was the first human constitution ever to establish a civil secular society based on human diversity and equality for Muslims, Christians,Jews and non-beliveres of all kinds.

Freedom of conscious is a corner stone of Islam and it is emphasized over and over again in the Quran-"No comulsion in religion" is but one of scores of such verses that occur in the Quran. The Prophet was true to this very modern principle in letter as in spirit 14 centureis ago.

The history of Islam has no equivalent to the barbaric Crusaders' wars, no Inquisition,no holocaust, no en masse slavary, and no genocide en masse of human beings as happened to the European Bosnian Muslims in the 1990's,and no forced conversions to christianity as happened to the whole continent of south America by the catholic spain.

For more one can refer to "The Message of the Quran-available at amazon" by a Jewish polish schoalr Muhammad Asad (Leopold Weiss) who converted to Islam in 1920's and died in Spain in 1992-which is an excellent transalation of the meanings of the Quran on which he spent 17 years of hard work.

Typical misdirection from those who stand to gain. NO, NO, NO to a mosque at ground zero. Show the alleged "Muslim tolerance" and build elsewhere. Shame to the self-haters in government who are trying to let it be built.

Read what Cordoba was - the Muslim capital of defeated Christian Spain. Peaceful? Right!

Building a Mosque is not a good idea, near Groud Zero. This is not a good faith Islamist should show his allegiance to America. People are not ready to accept it.
How good the intensions are, the wound has not healed

jm125,
U are a false witness and a war monger.So don't pretend to be a protector of Ahmadia and use that to bash the remaining 1.6 billion Mulsims on the face of the palnet.

Ahmadia has nothing to do with Islam-but "No compulsion in religon," and its misguided followers should dwell in peace every where an believe as the like-provided they don't call themselves Muslims.

America has been a melting pot for all, irrespective religion,language,country of origin.
As an American alligiance is to America irrespective of my religious practice. This means no indulgence directly or indirectly supporting any organisations.I do accept there will be traitors, this applies to any citizen of any country.
Islamic people have alligiance to Islam and its followers whether they are terrorists or not.
This wonderful country provides so many opportuinity. There has been no persecution of any religious groups as long as embrace USA as there motherland

To "Alislam1 | July 23, 2010 7:15 PM":

With all due respect to freedom of conscious,Qidyania or Ahmadayia has nothing to do with true Islam by the consensus of all main stream Islam-because the Prophet Muhammad said "there is no prophet after me;" this Gulam falesly claimed to be a prophet of Islam!!!!!!

I strongly recommend that everyone reads the article belwo by an expert on Islama t Georgetown University:

"Islamophobia and the Muslim center at Ground Zero

By John L. Esposito,

Special to CNN

July 19, 2010 9:06 a.m. EDT

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/07/19/esposito.muslim.center/

1) Yes. Unequivocally.One can be an American and a Muslim.

2)Can one be a jew spying on the US on behlaf of isrl-and be also an American?

3) Can a xtian be an American?

Correction:there are just over eight rpt eight million American Muslims in America-and not two million as the authors stated-who see out of touch with that fact.

Nice intellectual college dorm b.s. discussion you've got going here about Islam and the Ground Zero Mosque.

N.Y.City

Let me tell you how it works HERE.
In the real world.
Blue collar Uniformed Services in this town?
343 dead NYC Fireman. 27 dead NYPD. 36 dead Port Authority Police.
All their family,friends and fellow-workers.
And the rest of the 96% of this city who are against this from ever happening at 45-47 Park Place...(Ground Zero)
You actually believe this piece of crap will ever get built without an accidental discharge of Pig entrails on that construction site in the dead of night?

Change your medication.

" Ismat Sarah Mangla is a member of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community".
Are these the muslims that the other muslims blow up because they are considered un-islamic? The idiotic apologist dribble these so called moderate muslims write is proof they have no place in western societies. These muslim thinkers are beneath convoluted logic. Doesn't this Ahmadiyya Muslim know her kind will get blown up in NYC as well as Pakistan once the religion of peace asserts and attains more influence. The PC idiots in NYC are seeing to that now. Daily terrorist incidents due to muslims are proof to anyone who can read and count that we do not need anymore muslims and mosques.

Some guy claims God has specifically chosen him to receive the word of God and spread God's word to the masses. Pretty much basic premise of all religions and pretty much all hogwash. The problem with Islam is that their core belief is to convert the entire world with whatever means possible including by the sword. Their infiltration of European and British society is part of that strategy. There were many muslims in this country, American citizens, who cheered when they saw the twin towers fall. We allow them to live among us at our peril.

Take this greatly sweetened view of Islam and tell it to the Islamists who wish Americans dead and the so-called "muslim-Americans" who don't speak out against it.

What a crock.

Islam is a cancer on western society.

Islam is a primitive death cult with an expansionist and violent theology.

Look at the islamic world and you see nothing but pathologies......we do not need that in America.

Islam is a step backward....and will have as many 'subscribers' after a few decades of western internet exposure as does Zeus today.

Muslim countries ban other religions. We give mosques tax exempt status.
Giving tax exempt status to mosques is just like given the KKK tax exempt status.

Posted by: davemercer27 | July 25, 2010 4:17 PM
-------------------------------------------
I think it's much worse. At least most KKK members are "still Patrotic," and still American. You've never known a KKK suicide bomber, or one who wants to destroy America.
Dennis

A doctrine of the Islam religion of Muslims should be compared to a doctrine of the Christian religion. Much of the Koran is teachings of the Prophet Muhammad and much of the Bible is teachings of Jesus Christ.
Some scholars think that Islam is a religion of a world community, imam, such as the Islamic Republic of Iran and citizens of the country conform to the teachings of the Islam clerics. In contrast, Christianity is a religion of the kingdom of heaven, not this world, but the one to come.
For example, some scholarly Pharisees diplomatically asked Jesus if Roman citizens should obey Caesar tax laws.
They said to Him, "Teacher, we know that You are true, and care about no one; for You do not regard the person of men but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not? Shall we pay, or shall we not pay?"
Jesus, knowing their hypocrisy, said, "Why do you test Me? Bring Me a denarius that I may see it." So they brought it.
Jesus said, "Whose image and inscription is this?" They said to Him, "Caesar's." And Jesus said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's." And they marveled at Him.
Christians believe in the things that are God’s and believe in obedience to God’s laws that come from the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus Christ. Christians should obey government authority of taxation and adhere to civil laws and discouraged civil disobedience. Christ teaches us to love one another and esteem others more than self.

Muslims were not responsible for the Witch-burnings, the Inquisitions, the long and extended tortures of the Christians. Nor were Muslims responsible for the holocaust. Good, peace-loving Christians did those things, celebrating their religion of love!
Christians need their hateful guns to protect them from life and their hateful god to protect them from death.
We will not survive as a species unless we learn to outgrow this infantile need for a Super-Daddy, a Santa Claus for grownups, some hateful imaginary being for whom we can run our pathetic, terrified, lives.
Posted by: gkam | July 25, 2010 11:27 AM
Report Offensive Comment
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I reject the whole of your speech.
There's nothing in Christ's teachings that asks, commands, or directs any Christian to commit crimes, sins, torture, and murder.
In fact, if you know anything about the teachings of Christ, the first thing that you learn, is Jesus's commandment, Thou shalt not kill. Show me a similar command from Allah, Muhommed, Ahmedinejad, or any other Muslim. You'll not find such, written.
Dennis

Muslim countries ban other religions. We give mosques tax exempt status.

Giving tax exempt status to mosques is just like given the KKK tax exempt status.

"If a country enacts Shariah law, does that mean that women and non-Muslims will lose all their rights?"

The answer to this question is Yes.

Monotheism was developed because of the multiple laws of polytheism.

For every god there were different laws, different rules and ethics to follow. It was chaos. Civilizations that worshiped different gods within them had no real social capitol, no trust among each other.
They were separate nations within nations locked in eternal conflict, persecution, servitude, and/or suppression of one another.

One God meant One Law. This was the gift of monotheism to unite the people and produce social capital needed to advance and evolve any civilization.

Secular government cannot include laws that can only be found to be practiced by one specific form of religious belief. If it does, then it is no longer a secular government, it is a form of theocracy even if is polytheistic.

Any government that enacts, allows, or enforces any form of Sharia law is Islamic.

There is no such thing as a Moslem American. That is an oxymoron. Followers of Islam are instructed by the Koran to either kill or convert "infidels" and when in a position where they are not in power they are told to pretend,
The U.S. government should require all Moslems to register as foreign agents. All mosques should be closely monitored as they are in China. If leaders in a mosque preach Jihad or plan attacks of any type they should be prosecuted.
It is clear that Islam is a religion of conquest and convert. A religion of intolerance and violence.I don't think most Americans are willing to tolerate such an intolerant religion. When a Moslem woman wears a veil she is showing contempt for all infidels. Our laws should prohibit such contempt which insults all of us who do not believe in Muhammad.

How ironic we talk about Muslims being who they are… But we don’t talk about Christians being who they should be?

Just saying...

The movement is good to see, but it is still a minority and far from the mainstream. Why?

Because the selective choices from the Koran ignore the clear cut works followed by the majority of Sunni and Shia Muslims. Mohammed was very clear that Muslims are a cut above all other humans and must rule. Non-Muslims can not rule over Muslims, that's apostacy, and that fact is why the excerpts from the Koran are incomplete. The article quotes sections about giving to authority that don't even vaguely address the Muslim V Non-Muslim issue, but refer to the Caliph, or Muslim leader and the authority inherent in that position.

Jihad isn't just war, that is only the last phase. As defined in the Koran and Hadith, Jihad is a three step process:
1) "Good" Muslims move out of Muslim majority areas to where they are a minority and begin to proselytize
2) Muslims use non-violent means to get those nations to implement Sharia Law
3) Only if the non-violent means fail is war necessary -- but it is necessary.

The US is is stage one, but you can look all over Europe, Asia and Africa and see stage 2. Muslims demanding Sharia Law be implemented. You also see the violence beginning in stage 3 as Sharia isn't implemented in places.

If you want a true view of mainstream Islam, you must look at the The Organization of Islamic Conferences. It is a body officially representing 57 Muslim majority and plurality nations. The group unanimously rejects the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, since it says all people have equal rights. Instead, the OIC puts forward the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam, which clearly says that only rights granted by Islam and Muslims exist, and only those that exist in Islam.

One an only hope the Ahmadiyya movement in honest in redefining Islam. However, the sources of money for the disputed mosque indicated that it is funded by state one Muslims intend on following the steps of Jihad.

The Ahmadi Muslims are much safer (remember Lahore massacre recently of Ahamdis in pakistan? Pak consitution call them heretics; so do Saudis I believe) than in non-Muslim societies like USA, Europe and India. That in a nutshell says a lot whether Islam is secular or believes in diversity etc.

Here I've pasted an excellent link by an acknowledged authority on the Islamic/Muslim concept of Taqiyya.

"How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War
Defeating Jihadist Terrorism

by Raymond Ibrahim
Middle East Quarterly
Winter 2010

http://www.raymondibrahim.com/7377/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war"

Since we as non-Islamists count for nothing in this world, any and all tactics are possible against us in the Islamist/Muslim world. Their collective conscience is beyond our Western Civilization's sense of "right and wrong".

The Ahmadiya sect's understanding is admirable but it is not even influential or accepted by majority of Muslims. The Western governments require equality of sexes. This means Muslim men cannot require their women to wear Burqas in the name of Islam. Even many Moslems in India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh and in Europe do not wear Burqa. Same thing applies to education and food. If Halal process runs counter to Animal cruelty act of a country, the Moslem citizens should not demand any exception. So, basically, every citizen of a nation must accpet that nations law and not expect any exceptions for muslims, sikhs, Jews, etc.

This is an addendum to my previous post.

The authors of this article misquoted Verse 4:59. Firstly, what they wrote actually comes from Verse 4:58 (the preceding verse) and nowhere in that verse does it suggest that Muslims should choose their leader, irrespective of faith. Verse 4:59 refutes this notion (which I explained in my previous post).

In Verse 4:59, Allah goes on to say: "...And if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day". This means that we Muslims are to judge each other and settle our disputes based on what is written in the Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). As this verse immediately follows Verse 4:58, which is what the authors quoted above, it is supporting the subject of how to deal with matters of dispute. The authors deduced that the "judge" in these disputes can be ANY capable person, regardless of faith. But it clear from these two verses that a Muslim can only judge based on what is written in Islam. A non-Muslim who does not believe in Allah, in the Quran and in Prophet Muhammad would NOT judge based on what is written in Islam.

Furthermore, the verse that the authors quoted is about being righteous and trustworthy in one's dealing with other people. For example, if you go into business with someone, there is a "trust" between the two parties that they will not try to scam each other. Allah reminds us in Verse 4:58 to uphold that "trust". He then says to judge between men using justice. But every judge needs some kind of yardstick or precedent to base his judgment on. Verses 4:58-59 clearly indicate that basis of judgment must be the Word of Allah (the Quran) and the example of Prophet Muhammad (his Sunnah).

Any Muslim who endorses a law-maker other than Allah has effectively replaced Allah as his god. This amounts to "shirk", the sin of making a partner with Allah. This sin is unforgivable, as stated in the Quran (Verse 4:116).

True Terrorists and Threats to Our Constitution and Freedom:

Christians AND Muslims or any other "religious" group who believe that EVERY non-believer of their particular crap is bound for Hell, Forever!

Can a true Christian be a true American. That is the better question.

"What does clash over mosque say about Islam in America?"

It says that those who support a mosque at Ground Zero are nuts. Total fruitcakes.

I've got an idea: let's build a Hitler museum in Auschwitz. You don't have terrorists kill 2500 people and then build a freaking monument to the terrorists!

Whoever thinks this is a good idea should be invited to a prayer-session at Guantanamo.
Seriously, maybe we *shouln't* close the place.

The authors of this article have proven themselves to be tricksters and propagandists because they have tried to explain the subject of this article by quoting Verse 4:59. But they grossly misquoted it. There is exactly half a verse BEFORE the part they presented in their article. The verse goes: "O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those of you who are in authority. And if you differ in anything amongst yourselves...".

The verse begins by Allah calling out to "those who believe". The first thing ALL Muslims learn is the definition of belief, which includes belief in: Allah, the Angels, the Holy Books, His Messengers, the Day of Resurrection and Divine Preordainment. Christians and Jews do NOT believe in Muhammad, whereas we Muslims believe in Jesus, Moses, Muhammad and all of Allah's Prophets. Christians and Jews do NOT believe in the Quran, whereas we Muslims believe that Allah gave the Gospel to Jesus, the Torah to Moses and the Psalms to David (as well as many other holy books that we do not know about but have been lost to history). Therefore, in this verse, Allah is clearly referring to Muslims ONLY. So Allah is saying TO THE MUSLIMS to obey Allah and to obey the Messenger (which means to obey Allah's commands and follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)). Allah also commands us to obey "those of us who are in authority". Since the verse began with Allah speaking to the Muslims, this verse clearly indicates that ONLY Muslims can be leaders of Muslims.

This part of Verse 4:59 (which the authors blatantly ignored) proves that Muslims cannot sit in a congress and make up their own laws to substitute Allah's established laws, nor can they appoint non-Muslims to make laws for Muslims to live by. Ergo, secularism is BY NO MEANS an Islamic doctrine.

President Obama told the Egyptian foreign minister recently that he is a Muslim. Coupled with his training by the Russian Academy of Sciences to be a communist and atheist sometime prior to 1993, you have a dangerous complex individual ruling the USA reins of power from which we may not escape as the dollar teeters on insolvency forcing you to barter for your food. Islam was formed by Satan which caused Muhammad to try to commit suicide several times.

The tone and this article is quite disturbing as an American born Muslim of African decent and european decent. My family was here long before many immigrant (so-called) white Americans. However, this article implies ligitimacy to only immigrant Muslims.

This topic, to me is more important for Islam in America than the "am I American enough for ya" argument.

Dr.Sherman Jackson, a reknowned American Born, scholar of Islam, in his book "The Third Resurrection" provides the intellectual foundation for the real significance and danger of the Immigrant Muslim (perhaps unintentional) hegemony of Islam in America cultural and democratic society.

This is not an attempt to say that there are two Islams, but to say that the apparent monopoly of the religion by immigrant Muslims may be an impediment to the integration and acceptance of Islam in America as a tolerarant and fundelmentally American tradition, that does not gut and marginalize the traditional and productive value system of religion in America.

John Esposito, a Georgetown Islamic scholar states that: "America has implemented Islamic concepts better than any other nation, for all the wrong reasons" Implying that it perhaps should have been more God centered...

But the point is that America has codified Islam principles of justice, equality, and social responsibility in its governance, court, and social service systems, although a work in progress; better than most so clled Muslim countries in the "Muslim World"?

As an African-American Muskim convert,I feel continueosly marginalized and often insulted by this hegemony and think that this well known issue should have been mentioned in this somewhat un-America article. But then again racism and indifference are America:)

Islam is a very dangerous political movement more dangerous than communism because it fools people by masquerading as a religion forcing Muslims to obey because Allah wants it done. Muhammad had 13 wives at same time. His favorite was Aisha to whom he was engaged when she was age 6. He consummated the marriage when she was 9 years old. Thus, a pedophile originated a 1.3 billion members religion. King Henry VIII a wife and monk murderer originated the 80 million member Anglican fraud religion. Martin Luther, a monk & sexual pervert originated the Lutheran religion present in Scandinavia and East Germany. All above are false religions from which you should flee and find the religion Christ established which now has 1.1 billion members and 7 sacraments of grace to get you to Heaven.

Nice try Ismat and co...quote Ahmadis to soften the barbaric image of Muslims..when the fact is the REAL muslims are killing the same Ahmadis left and right and deemed them to be unislamic.

If all muslims are like Ahmadis or even a significant number of them are..we will be in a different situation..also Ahmadi is barely a century old..

This is a dumb question. You can be Fully Muslim and Fully American. At different times, America didnt trust and actually persecuted Natives, Blacks, and Asians, yet members of all of these groups consider themselves to be American.

Do not allow bigots to make you question your loyalty to your country. As a Black man, who has roots in this country that go back hundreds of years, I refuse to let anyone dictate to me whether or not I can be American, and I'd advise anyone else who questions whether they can be fully American and whatever (religion, ethnicity, whatever) to do the same.

Not mentioned are the many American born citizens of all colors and former faiths that have converted to the Muslim religion. I don't believe that terrorists are true faithful Muslims, they are an aberration in that religion and should be shunned and shamed by all Muslims. Remember, all steeples point to heaven.

Not mentioned are the many American born citizens of all colors and former faiths that have converted to the Muslim religion. I don't believe that terrorists are true faithful Muslims, they are an aberration in that religion and should be shunned and shamed by all Muslims. Remeber, all steeples point to heaven.

WAPO is removing comments posted here that are critical of Islam, which is to be expected of them of course.

Islam is a huge religion, with many different perspectives and interpretations of the Koran. Most Americans don't really know much about it. So when we hear about one aspect or event, we think that's representative. But think about the story of the blind men and the elephant. The radicals and haters in Islam are NOT representative of the faith as a whole. My limited experience with Muslims is that they are ALL much more tolerant, considerate, and friendly than many of the Christians and Jews I know. I really don't think my Muslim friends are putting up a false show to gain acceptance, I think they're genuinely nice people. So I support building the mosque near Ground Zero. It's wrong to think that Jewish sensibilities have anything to do with it. There are a lot of Jews in NYC and the surrounding area, but so what? This is a great opportunity for more of them, and for more of us Christians as well, to interact with Muslims on a friendly, personal level.

Also think about how this issue will be perceived by the wide Muslim community around the world. Refusal of permission to build the mosque will look like a rejection of Islam in the United States, which would encourage those who want to hurt us. Instead we need to convince the majority of Muslims around the world that they have no need to fear or reject America.

All religion is evil.

Christian Crusaders murdered Jews, Muslims (even practiced cannibalism on Muslim men women and children First Crusade 1098). American "Christians" of the far right are the most violent and hateful people I have ever met here in the States.

Muslims routinely killed non believers lead by the prophet and his armies. They became and were very tolerant up until the Europeans came slashing through on the Crusades.

Hindus murder Muslims, vice versa.

Buddhist seem to be the only peaceful one out there, but they don't consider themselves a religion.

Hate seems the common thread of many religions, people tend to go insane when they divide into "us and them" situations.

No answers, just disgust at the whole lot.

The most significant thing to be remembered is called Taqiyya - allowing a believer to lie to a non believer with impunity.
Islam is a political cult and not a religion. It should indeed be banned without exception from the US.

In 1947 there was a large Hindu population in the newly created state of Pakistan. It is gone. In the recent past, there was a large Jewish population in all the countries of the near east and today it is gone. Try being a Christian in such a diverse lot of countries as Egypt, Turkey, and Pakistan and you will find you quality of life under constant threat. Finally, and most disturbing I want to remind everyone that the British newspaper the Guardian -hardly a right wing rag - did a poll of British Muslims on whether or not they supported suicide bombers. 7 percent said they would be suicide bombers and another 25 percent said that they would support suicide bombers. Therefore, if one looks at how Muslim countries treat other religions, they must conclude that they do not believe in tolerance. In addition, if one looks at attitudes toward violence toward Christians, one will find that it is widely supported in the Muslim community and portraying this religion as believe in peace and toleration is nonsense. I could go on and on, but I will end by advising everyone to read the late Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilizations.

Aren't many Muslims in the West (Europe and America)pacticing "Taysir" an 'Islam light' so to speak, Koran 2-185,2:286,5-6,4:26-28. This "taysir" has been called for by Muslim Sheik Yusuf al-Qaradawi It's the "easy way" of Sharia Law until circunstances allow "the hard way" or full Sharia Law to be practiced. A recent survey of Detroit Muslims showed 81% wanted full Sharia Law to be practiced in the U.S.
IMO, Imam Abdul Faisal Rauf is practicing the doctrine of "taqiyya" which allows Muslims to lie to non-muslims. "Taysir" and "taqiyya" go hand in hand. Practice taysir and taqiyya outwardly but inwardly believe in full Sharia. England is a perfect example of these practices.

This is an interesting article. I've never heard of the Ahmadis, but they sound pretty reasonable.

Regarding a mosque going up at ground zero: why? I don't see the point. It's just gratuitous incitement of those who are anti-Islam. And if it is destroyed, won't that have a worse impact on Western/Muslim relations than if it's not built in the first place?

I have spoken to several USA Muslims and all of them answered my direct questions with the answers that they would like all Americans to become Muslims and that sharia law would then be democratically selected to override the USA Constitution.

In all of Islamic history since its founding in the 8th century, non-Muslims in Muslim conquered societies have always been second-class citizens, holding no important offices and paying extra taxes.

Another important element of Islam is that there is no formal structure. Only the Koran and ulema (decisions/opinions passed down through history like common law in our legal system) dictate the actions of Islam. A strong, dynamic leader (like President Obama) could easily dupe the USA electorate into thinking change meant one thing and implement his idea of Islam based on his own charisma and popularity.

Islam is very dangerous for any representative form of government and the population of Muslims should be closely controlled and monitored to a very small minority. As long as they are less than 1% of our population, they will be constrained to limited violence. If they grow they begin to change our democratic institutions and eventually our Constitution. The final result will be death to the republic.

What few people have pointed out is that the Ahmadi branch of Islam is essentially a modern-day cult. It is based off the teachings of Gulam Ahmad, a leader who believed he was the Mahdi in the 1920s in Pakistan, and who amassed a large following. They are essentially the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses of Islam. So the opinion of an Ahmadi about what Islam allows is not generally considered reputable by non-Ahmadis.

Secularism is NOT an integral part of Islam; in fact it is the opposite, as there are numerous passages in the Koram that discuss how religion and government must be intertwined. The separation of church and state in the American way is an alien concept to most Muslim nations; Most of them state in their consititutions that the Koran is the basis for government, not a secular document.

"But there are still some Americans who distrust Muslim-Americans".....just the smart Americans.

This article is more Islam apologist crap. Islam is an empty well with nothing to offer the West except oppression, death and misery.

Lets start looking at Islam as a political belief and not a religion, then we'll develop the strength we need to wipe it from our nation.

Zstop posted the following

Islam does not forbid women from being educated...matter of fact, in quran and in hadith, fathers are warned repeatedly to not favor their sons over their daughters. As a result, Saudi law and other sharia law dictates that equal govenment money be spent on women's and men's schools. Granted, arab culture is still very misogynistic, but it was 1000X worse before Islam.

really so all the articles and books about muslim mwomen throught many of the muslim countries are still uneducated in 2010-

I have not read many of the postings but answer this question-a silly /wrong/even anti-islamic/pick your adjective- paper published cartoons about the Prophet and the Arab world and other conservative Muslim countries fill the streets with protesters - where is the ground swell of Muslims who reject teh "kidnapping" of their religion by Islamic terorists/fundamentalist where is there a list of 100/1000 of Muslim leaders especially mullahs and Ayatollahs preaching and writing that what these terrorists are doing is wrong- where are the fatwha's issued against the terrorist desecrators of the Muslim religion-

the Muslim silence on that core issue is deafening

Secular Islam? That would be a joke if it wasn't such a nauseating lie. The buffoons who wrote this spew assume none of us have ever read that toilet paper they call a koran. Their "prophet" is a baby raping mass murderer who contributed nothing but misery and intolerance to every place it has ever infected. If allowed to, The muslims will spread their evil even into the USA, the last bastion of light against their hate. Beware the lying muslims!

I think you can find anything you want in any "holy" book and interpret it in anyway you like. I guess too many contradictions are embed in them. No doubt this is why religious wars were waged, and why so vastly different people can believe in them, from crazy bigots to the most generous person.

In Islam state and religion are one. Muslims cannot think of the one without the other because the Koran mandates that belief as did the prophet Mohammed himself. Sharia is the legal system that governs Muslims and the Koran is the basis for sharia law. Sharia is the law in Saudi Arabia and many islamic states. In Turkey Ataturk broke the system in an attempt to modernize that country. But even there, there are strong forces that threaten to undo his attempts. Why liberals, in an attempt to be "tolerant" ignore history, is difficult to understand.

Muslim-Americans are an oxymoron. Their Koran by all accounts prohibits the very things which America is meant to promote. They are either hypocritical Islamists/Muslims or they are hypocritical Americans. The duality they profess is intellectually dishonest.

All readers here should familiarize themselves with the Muslim/Islamic concept of Taqiyya, for starters.
Go ahead...look it up....then consider that the United States passports which they are so prone to brandish are merely papers of convenience. Since America is an "heretical nation of blasphemers" in Islamists' eyes and minds, it's an easy rationalization for them to profess such a duality, or a dual loyalty behind their useful screen of Taqiyya.

Don't be mislead by their unctuousness and self serving statements.

We Westerners are wet naifs when dealing with Islam, whatever its professed variation.

Was not mohamed married to a six year old child along with 10-12 different women? Is that sign of a role model? Probably Tiger Woods is much better role model as far as fidelity is concerned. All mohamed seemed to do is legalize child marriage (read pedophilia) (and marriage to his own daughter in law) by making up some gabrielle angel baloney. Tiger at least does not sleep with kids and has not killed thousands of innocents or raided their lands for booty.

For those who say Islam accords equal rights to women!- so why can not women drive in Saudi Arabia, why they can not go out of their homes alone even when they are in veils in 100 deg. weather....?

Why are Muslim nations called Islamic republics and insult non-Muslims? What happened to population of Jews/Xtians where they were more in numbers before Islam invaded their lands...?

For all your fear of islam, when is the last time a muslim came knocking on your door in an attempt to convert you (ala the Jehovah's witnesses)? Where does this fear and hatred of islam come from? When is the last time a muslim forbad you or restricted you from doing anything you wanted, except when you are in muslim countries? Where is this fear of this islamic boogeyman coming from? Must be because communism is now dead, something else is now needed to scare and control the retarded masses.

Muslims were not responsible for the Witch-burnings, the Inquisitions, the long and extended tortures of the Christians. Nor were Muslims responsible for the holocaust. Good, peace-loving Christians did those things, celebrating their religion of love!

Christians need their hateful guns to protect them from life and their hateful god to protect them from death.

We will not survive as a species unless we learn to outgrow this infantile need for a Super-Daddy, a Santa Claus for grownups, some hateful imaginary being for whom we can run our pathetic, terrified, lives.

The best thing is to ban Islam in USA, by seeking a Constitutional amnedment.

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

Correction to earlier post.
The name ibn warraq for the Arcbishop of Mecca should be replaced by "Waraqa ibn Nawfal."

JBBHOY

By practicing religious apartheid in Mecca and Medina, Muslims have made both cities unholy.

In order purify them Muslims should allow non-Muslims to live there, work there, raise families and build their own places of worship. Only then will the two cities be holy in the eyes of God.

"In the eyes of Allah, the believing man and the believing women are equals."
-Quran

Now, please, go ahead and find me a similar phrase in the bible. Ill wait.

And THAT pretty well sums it up. The ignorant ones posting here using the past immigrations of other faiths and cultures seem to choose to ignore the FACT that primary goal of Islam is to convert ALL to that faith and any non believers are considered ENEMIES of that religion.
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Oh MY GOD! A religion seeks converts????! Oh the humanity!!! /sarcasm

JBOY asserts:
“These cities (Mecca and Medina) are not centers of commerce, nor have they ever had a non-muslim population! So where is the apartheid??”

Medina was a majority Jewish town and Mecca had a vibrant Christian population all during most of your prophet’s lifetime. Ibn warraq, the first cousin of Khadija, Mohammad’s first wife, was the archbishop of Mecca during Mohammad’s life-time and the one who officiated Mohammad’s wedding to Khadija. Read your history before making a fool of yourself.

NO, pretty simple answer.

US stands for tolerance.

Posted by: docwhocuts

Right. Huckabees and their inbred teabagger cousins demonstrate it every day for gays, blacks, "non-believers", Mexicans, Muslims and Democrats.

RNC Fox News and Limbaugh hate tolerance like evil hates the light.

Until Muslims can treat women with respect and dignity, allowing them to move freely, own property and get an education, any pronouncements about "a religion of peace" ring hollow because one-half of their communities now live as semi-slaves, covered with a blanket (burqua) . If they wish to live in the U.S. they can bring their religion but not their immoral treatment of girls and women
___________________________________
1) Islam was the first religion to give women property rights. You do realize that the prophet's first wife was significantly wealthier than him and that he was her employee, right?

2) Islam does not forbid women from being educated...matter of fact, in quran and in hadith, fathers are warned repeatedly to not favor their sons over their daughters. As a result, Saudi law and other sharia law dictates that equal govenment money be spent on women's and men's schools. Granted, arab culture is still very misogynistic, but it was 1000X worse before Islam.

3) Only about 5% of muslim women wear the full burqa. Its a Gulfie thing, that has only more recently increased in popularity elsewhere

Now, try again, this time without managing to get every single fact wrong.

Every religion, over the years, moved on to fit in the evolving times. Except Islam, which is stuck in the 7th century Arabia. I read a post from a Saudi that Islam is so perfect, it never needs revision. Every musilim is required to stay under sharia. No ifs and no buts. Any muslim leaving the religion for any reason whatsoever, is under the death fatwa from allah himself. This should give something to ponder over to those who plan to convert or the ones already converted to Islam. The ones born into Islam are condemned to be muslim for life. There is no escape. An infidel (all the rest of us non believers) is a lower class human being with no value as per allah, and his sole messenger Muhamad. This is the reason no minority survives well in any country where it is 51% or more muslim. There is no exception. NO OTHER RELIGION imposes such a deadly restriction on any of its followers, or such condemnations on others. This is the core Islamic value.
Every muslim preaches peace and happiness and loyalty and anything else you want to hear, to gain entry into a new country to escape the cesspool life of their homelands. This changes radically once they reach a certain number. They will demand sharia for themselves first, and slowly demand the country’s constitution to incorporate sharia. Examples abound. Look at Europe, England, India, to name a few. No other religious group has this character.
This makes Islam unique, and they can never be loyal citizens of this country. They can sugar coat all of these op-ed columns and editorials to appease us, but the beast in their bellies never dies. Even the Ahmadi’s pretend to be tame and docile, but their core values still remain Islam, even though mainstream Islam denounces them.
A mosque next to ground zero is a colossal mistake. Everyone will regret it one day. Caution is not an option here.

The problems with Islam is that its followers always appear and talk about peace, but when you walk away, they blow out something. How can we trust Islam if almost 100 of all terrorist attacts are comitted by Islam followers? Sorry, no ground zero mosque...

A more interesting question to me is: Can you be fully Christian and fully American?

There are plenty of Bible verses you can quote that would lead you to doubt that they can, and you can certainly find folks preaching intolerance, violence and even terrorism in the name of Jesus.

And yet they seem to do OK. I expect Muslims will be the same.

All moslems should leave the United States.

And Im not bright enough to spell inherent right (see below). Thats ironic too.

JBBHOY

Jews lived all over Arabia including Mecca and Medina, Medina was called Yathrib then. the number of Jews in what is now Saudi Arabia was only slightly less than the Arabs but the Jews were richer and owned businesses, plantations, were farmers. Arabs, including Muhammad earned their living by trading and robbing caravans.

Muhammad coveted the wealth of the Jews and that is why under false pretexts he attacked and killed the Jews and those that survived he expelled, as usual invoking the name of the Arabic idol Allah.

Jews have always lived in all those areas and are native to the Mideast. If Israel should return land to the Palestinians then half of Saudi Arabia should be given back to the Jews.

Robbery even by false prophets like Muhammad are never acceptable and not subject to the statute of limitations.

I have no idea how ahmadiyas manage to misinterpret the Quran so completely, but there is a good reason they have zero credibility with other muslims. Saying things like Islam mandates seperation between mosque and state is just a bald-falced lie
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NO, pretty simple answer.
US stands for tolerance.
Islam delcares non believers to be a lesser type of being.... worse in many interpretations...
no, they're 100% incompatible.
Posted by: docwhocuts | July 25, 2010 9:38 AM
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Wow, way to show that good old U.S. tolerance. LOL I dont think you are even bright enough to catch the inherit irony of your post, thanks for the laugh tho...And btw, its cute how u present your argument as if seeing nonbelievers as lesser is unique to Islam. Jews view gentiles as "goyim", or "beasts of burden". Christianity was the first religion to invent the idea of an eternal hell for non-believers. The only religion that actually views non-believers as equals is Hinduism. So perhaps America should outlaw all religions but Hinduism, according to your brilliant theory.

when i see the '' moderate muslims put their lives on the line to fight the islamo-fascists, then i might think there is hope for some of them. anyway, america's laws come from judeo-christian values. thats why moses is carved in the scotus building. if somebody wants to end that, go ahead and try.

There are plenty of people who believe that I, a non-believer, cannot be fully American.

It's people like that that are the problem.

If we keep them in check by preserving the separation of church and state (or mosque, or whatever), then all sorts of believers can be fully American in practice, even if some number of our countrymen do not want to admit it.

Until Muslims can treat women with respect and dignity, allowing them to move freely, own property and get an education, any pronouncements about "a religion of peace" ring hollow because one-half of their communities now live as semi-slaves, covered with a blanket (burqua) . If they wish to live in the U.S. they can bring their religion but not their immoral treatment of girls and women.

NO, pretty simple answer.

US stands for tolerance.

Islam declares non believers to be a lesser type of being.... worse in many interpretations...

Some interpretations call for the death of all infidels, without punishment from god, because they're souls are already dead.

That's 100% diametrically opposed to our concepts of freedom.

no, they're 100% incompatible.

Posted by: docwhocuts | July 25, 2010 9:38 AM

And THAT pretty well sums it up. The ignorant ones posting here using the past immigrations of other faiths and cultures seem to choose to ignore the FACT that primary goal of Islam is to convert ALL to that faith and any non believers are considered ENEMIES of that religion. There are NO Islamic countries ANYWHERE ON THIS PLANET that show the "tolerance" of other religions spoken of in the propaganda B S written into this "article" which is nothing more than a waste of print space. So tell us how that in any way shows tolerance of others, the point the fools posting on here choose to base their arguments on?

Muslim-Americans are an oxymoron. Their Koran by all accounts prohibits the very things which America is meant to promote. They are either hypocritical Islamists/Muslims or they are hypocritical Americans. The duality they profess is intellectually dishonest.

All readers here should familiarize themselves with the Muslim/Islamic concept of Taqiyya, for starters.
Go ahead...look it up....then consider that the United States passports which they are so prone to brandish are merely papers of convenience. Since America is an "heretical nation of blasphemers" in Islamists' eyes and minds, it's an easy rationalization for them to profess such a duality, or a dual loyalty behind their useful screen of Taqiyya.

Don't be mislead by their unctuousness and self serving statements.

We Westerners are wet naifs when dealing with Islam, whatever its professed variation.

JBBOY:

Jews did indeed lived in Makkah and Madinah at the time of Prophet Muhammad. Without getting into needless debate over minute facts, just think: if Jews were not there near Makkah and Madinah, why would Quran reference Jews so much and why would Islasm borrow so much of Jewish practices as a part of Islamic practices ?

Islam cannot respect the First Amendment of the US Constitution (Freedom of Speech). In that sense the two are diametrically opposite.

Here free speech includes offensive speech, but not physically threatening speech or hate speech. One must have the right to critcize Islam and draw cartoons that is offensive. Islam calls for physical punishment against such actions in forms described in Quran [005:033].

Islam is a barbaric religion. Muslims should not live in USA. Europe is already reeling from the onslaught of Muslim population and frequent confrontations are on the rise. Why allow that possibility to happen in USA, and that too knowingly ?

Today because Muslims are 1% of the US population, the onslaught is not felt. Wait till they become 10%. The problems of Shariah law implementation shall start with more homegrown terrorism.

NO, you cannot be American and Muslim, that does not work.
These nutjobs that die for Allah, and their twisted way of thinking, doesn't come close to assimulating with Americans.
Send them back and all the other groups that want to park this asses in the U.S., they also sponge off Americans.

JBBOY wrote:

"Where and how I pray is my business and no one else should dictate."

It matters. Where you pray is important. If you block a main street during the Friday jummah prayers, and cause me inconvenience, I have the right to kick your behind and move on. If you pray inside a mosque I have no problem.

Your prayers cannot infringe with my personal freedoms.

jailkkhosla: Again ignorance is not a bliss. Please read before you post. Rome is not a holy city but Vatican is where the Pope sits. Holy Rome ended somewhere around the 14th century (and no Muslims had no part in it, blame it on Martin Luther). When it comes to India, please, remember Barbary mosque? Do you remember the recent Gujarat massacre of Muslims? Do you remember the Sikh massacres of 1984 and the storming of the Golden Temple? Every religion and society has one time or the other produced some wing nuts who don't represent either the society or that religion. Hindus are not immune to this either.
Jews never lived in Mecca, again go to google and search. Jews and Muslims had lived for centuries in total harmony, Muslim Spain was the jewish cultural center. And both Muslims and Jews were either killed or converted by force to Christianity. Again don't take my word for it but do some research. Peace!

Lest we forget "Ahmadiyyah Muslims" are not true Muslims and as such their views cannot be taken to reflect the true values of Islam. One of the basic pillars of Islam is that a Muslim must accept that Muhammad is the last Prophet and that no prophet will come after him. This basic principle is never accepted by the followers of Ahmad Kadiani from north India who believe that Ahmad himself who began to preach his version of Islam in mid 19th Century is a prophet. Readers may be interested to note that Ahmad Kadiani considered himself the embodiment of Christ, Budha and countless other Gods. So I would suggest that readers take great care to ascertain where the writers on an Islamic topic are coming from.This would help to avoid confusion that will generate more misunderstanding.

Again there are quit a few Dimwits who are painting 1.5Billion Muslims with same brush as evil. They are Willfully ignoring the recent epidemic of pedophilia in catholic church, will you label all Catholics/Christians as tolerant of pedophilia ?.

Sharia Law which is a common theme for these accusers to blame muslims. Surprisingly all the cruel punishments or social restriction on women posed by sharia law are inspirations from Bible and none of these teachings are found in Quran.

One could care less which country you live as long as that country promotes justice,equality,opportunities to live prosperous life and practice religion free of persecution is following Quranic Principles. Even if it is majority Christian,Buddhist or Muslim.

Sharia Law Garbage is no where found in Quran, rather frequently cited in Bible.

Let's get this straight:
Pen a novel about or draw a cartoon of "The Prophet" and you risk your life?
They're that sensitive about their religious beliefs.

But these same spiritually advance Imams and their followers can't see the insensitive act of building a Mosque/Celebration Center six hundred yards from where "Allah-Akbar" was screamed as 3000 Americans met their deaths at the hands of the fellow religionists?

Hello?

JBBHOY

Varanasi is a city holy to Hindus yet Muslims can go in there and build a mosque.

Rome is holy to Christians yet Muslims can go in there and build mosques.

Mecca before Muhammad was a thriving center of commerce for both Arabs and Jews. After Muhammad murdered thousands of Jews and expelled the rest, Mecca became the apartheid city for Muslims and still is an apartheid city that keeps out non-Muslims by law.

This is not permissible under international laws and internationally accepted standards for religious freedom.

I would like to go and live and and worship in Mecaa just as I would like to any other city. That is my right.

My living there and building a temple does not make it any less holy for Muslims. Just as a mosque in Varanasi does not make the city any less holy for Hindus.

You need to readjust your apartheid seeped mind and fight for the freedom of non-Muslims to freely live and worship in Mecca. Until you do so you have no right to live in the United States. We do not need bigots here, our need for Muslim bigots is even less.

"“Prophet Muhammad himself said, "You should listen to and obey your ruler, even if you [despise him] (Bukhari)". This is sufficient evidence of Islam's mandate for the separation of mosque and state.”"

This is an example of reading more in an undocumented text than it bears.
When Mohammad allegedly said the above he had in mind the system of government where he was simultaneously a prophet and a king. His successors, he decreed, should imitate him; be both political leaders (kings) as well as heads of the Muslim church, i.e. sort of Muslim popes, with the title of “the Prince of the Faithful.”

docwhocuts; what a bunch of nonsense. Do you actually know what you are talking about? Go to google and read about Islam. Such ignorance when you have an internet connection is simply tragic!!!
That goes for all the wing nuts on this forum. Ignorance is not a bliss but is a tragedy

Of course Muslims can be integrated into the US. There has never been a religion, nationality or culture that couldn't be integrated into the US. I once did a project for the Bobst Library at NYU cataloging tapes of interviews of immigrants stretching back 100 years of immigration. I was amazed that every generation said the same things about the newest immigrants. "They don't learn the language, they're loyalty is really to their home land, they just come here to send money back home, etc" Same same today. I absolutely guarantee any religion, nationality of culture can and would be integrated into the US. In time you'll see. Then 20 years from now we can say the same things about the next group.

This piece reflects the ignorance that pervades pseudo-Islamist's community in this country. I do not necessarily agree but Ahmadis are not considered Muslims by all Muslims unanimously. Not a single Muslim country ( 55 of them ) accepts them as Muslims. They cannot visit Muslim shrines anywhere including Saudi Arabia. They are a separate religion very much like Bahais of Iran . As for acceptance of Muslims in this country, history would teach us that such acceptance is mostly governed by factors other than "selective journalism". If Germans including known Nazis are accepted here in spite of Hitler and Auschwitz, if Italians are accepted here with a baggage of Mussolini, if Russians are accepted here having just sent their spies back to the land of Lenin, Czar and Stalin, if Serbs are accepted here with the background of Srebrenica and WWI, if Idol-worshiping Indians are accepted here, if Japanese are accepted here with the memories of WWII and if British are accepted here while we remember well their enslavement of America THEN Muslims will be accepted here for their useful purpose and a large population ( 5-6 million ) of professionals in the US. And America will accept anyone who himself/herself is not evil, everyone judged on his own merit not on the deeds of others. We have lately compromised our own doctrines but we still have a constitution by which we like to live and it guarantees everyone innocence unless proven guilty. Take it or leave it , this is our doctrine.

jailkkhosla: Mecca and Medina are holy cities to Muslims, not for christians, or hindus, etc. So why are you so hung up on visiting these places?? These cities are not centers of commerce, nor they ever have had a non-muslim population! So where is the apartheid??
If these is an apartheid state in the world it is Israel, the beloved state that does no wrong of the neo-cons and all the right wing fanatics spewing hatred on this forum. Some of these comments could have been written by Nazis in the 1930s, explaining their hatred of the jews and blaming everything under the sun to jewish problem.

Extremist right wing fascists are using Muslims as scapegoats for their misdeed and for ruining the country financially, economically and socially with a huge gap between the top 5% of the population and the rest of the nation that belong to the Middle and Working classes.
To divert the anger of the masses certain well connected crook gamblers with no morality at all and who thrive on continuous wars in places like Iraq (illegally started, where are the WMDs?) have to justify their madness and have to use an alibi to condition rednecks who need to be educated.
It is time for US citizens to ask their senators and congressmen to stop wasting $billions on wars and the military machinery and to follow the path of Canada that doesnt need to be so violent and agrressive to the point that whole regions do not accept this level of arrogance not just from Muslims in the
in the Middle East but from Christians South Americans, Christians Africans and even Asians from Buddihts in India to Communits in China. By the way these are not Muslims :)
Time to eradict your own extremists form the likes of Dick Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and the rest that made a laughing stock of the majority of US citizens with their Think Tanks the likes of The New American Century and The Amerian Entreprise. Time for you to read more for the likes of Chomsky to understand what I am talking about.
The 2 millions US citizens who happen to be Muslims are law obeying citizens and who pay their tatxes on time and do not get away with murder as did the likes of Bush and Cheney.

NO, pretty simple answer.

US stands for tolerance.

Islam delcares non believers to be a lesser type of being.... worse in many interpretations...

Some interpretations call for the death of all infidels, without punishment from god, because they're souls are already dead.

That's 100% diametrically opposed to our concepts of freedom.

no, they're 100% incompatible.

We were not attacked by the religion of Islam and the 1.57 Billion Muslims around the world or a mass uprising of the 2 miilion in the US. We were attacked by 20 hijackers and perhaps a few hundred backers of Bin Laden, a power hungry man who has distain for for both the west and mainstream Islam in all but its most reactionary forms. Muslims have lived in peace in the US for generations. Don't be blinded by fanatics. Learn about others in your city, what you have in commom, and work together. When you say "muslims did nothing after 9/11" What did you want them to do? Muslims joined the military, spoke out in community centers and mosques, helped the FBI. To site the violence of the Quran and turn a blind eye to the violence (slavery, killing non believers, stoning adulterers) in the bible is hypacrytical. Do you think the IRA (christians) speak for the religion, or the Christinas mobs in Africa, or David Koresh? No, you see them as atithetical. Look at the 50 countries in the world with muslim majorities and see that most, while conservative, are peaaceful. America values religious freedom for all.

Islam is not compatible with America. Killing people for apostasy, homosexuality and adultery - just to name a few of the requirements to be a liberal - is simply not acceptable.

Sharia law is not compatible with America.

Keep in mind, they do not want to become Americans - they want America to become an islamic state.

I'm fine with Ahmadiyya Muslims. Nice, rational people -- and hated, persecuted and/or killed by plenty of other so-called "Good Muslims," up to and including the secular government of our so-called ally, Pakistan.

It's so predictable: emigrate, seek entitlements, use your host country's tolerance to promote your own intolerance, demand that others accommodate your 'special needs' and when numbers have reached a certain level, demand an Islamic Emirate.
. . . .

Ferdie and Isabella had it right. This is an ideology masquerading a religion that intends to devour us from the inside.

Just say NO!

POSTED BY: JACKFLASHMAN | JULY 25, 2010 8:53 AM
REPORT OFFENSIVE COMMENT

_____________

The first paragraph propounds a characteristic history in the manner of a certain mustachioed German about another religious group. The second sentence package forgets that Isabella expelled Jews in 1492. Our words should comport with tolerance and magnanimity.

Islam is a unitary system of politics, courts, economy, military, religion, and society. This story is propaganda. When you see Muslims in hijabs doing security at airports, you know our leaders have betrayed us and laugh at us as cowards. Unfortunately, they are right.

Abrahamic religions make it difficult to serve two masters - religion and nation.
The basic problem is the religion's contempt for civil law and the belief they are above it.

Examples are Muslims who do not denounce their murderous terrorists, Baptists who let Fred Phelps use their name on his Church, and Catholics who defend felony sexual child abuse and its associated racketeering in hiding perverts.

All three make pretty piss poor Americans.

An internet search for Ahmadi Muslims finds their founder called for continous jihad against unbelievers (except the Brits-who had paid him off). A good read on Islam is Wafa Sultan (A God who Hates) and Charles Trifkowiz's works.

Muslims have decimated the natives whereever they invaded- Syria, Egypt, Pakistan... are all examples of brutal imperialism and Islamic crusades against unbelievers. If Muslims tolerated kafirs living among them, it was mostly to get taxes out of them. It was mostly non-Muslims who did any work and thus supported th economy and provided a huge tax (jizya) revenue to Muslim rulers.

Ya wonder if Bloomberg even has a soul?THERE SOULD NOT BE A MOSQUE AT GROUND ZERO PERIOD!!!!!!!!!More twisted 'progressive'non logic ?

All Americans are true experts on islam, we read the newspapers, watch TV, blog, and by having friends or neighbors killed in the World Trade Center.

It is't hard to understand the religion of murder, 14th century ignorance, intolerance, violence, and hatred.

We see it daily through photos and videos of frothing at the mouth, mad dog muslims screaming allah akbar, death to America, kill the infidels and on and on ad nauseum.

No, muslims belong in their own version of hell, their muslim dominated cesspools they call countries and that's the only place they belong. You've destroyed your own lands, stay out of ours.

Does not make sense at all. If Islam is secular, then why are so many Muslim nations called Islamic republics - thus openly insulting any non-Muslims (if they still happen to be living in that nation).

The bastion of Islam- Saudi Arabia bans bibles, geetas and torahs etc. And all Muslims of the world consider it a priviledge to visit that nation.

More importantly look at numbers and plight of non-Muslims in majority Muslim societies (they are either non-existent, or very tiny minority and are marginalized). And rememeber none of these non-Muslims chanted their religious slogans while they massacred thousands of Muslims. No, the intolerance and hatred of non-Muslims is prescribed by prophet mohamed. He decimated the jews from mecca and medina. And he compared them to dogs and monkeys.

Just watched a You Tube clip where a six year old Muslim girl calls Jews monkeys and dogs (following in footsteps of her prophets) and there are tens of thousands of comments posted by Muslims on this clip saying "Masha Allah" meaning what a great job the little girl has done.

Islam is not compatible with any democratic or non-democratic non-Muslim society.

It is irrelevant whether 'moderate muslims' (M&Ms) agree with or not. This is what non-muslims are increasingly concluding.

No need to recite the litany of problems that muslims even in small numbers have created from Norway to the Philippines and from Chechnya to Nigeria.

It's so predictable: emigrate, seek entitlements, use your host country's tolerance to promote your own intolerance, demand that others accommodate your 'special needs' and when numbers have reached a certain level, demand an Islamic Emirate.

At the Emirate stage, the M&Ms are conspicuous by their absence having served the purpose of a 'vanguard'.

Ferdie and Isabella had it right. This is an ideology masquerading a religion that intends to devour us from the inside.

Just say NO!

The arrogance of those extremists right wing fascists and their neocons counterparts is beyond description.
They are so ignorant about Islam to the point that they cannot even tell you what are the 5 pillars of Islam and yet they jump into the bandwagon of hate, mistrust and insults as if they are true experts in Islam.
They cannot even tell you what the 10 commandmants stand for or recite verses about stoning in the Old Testament yet they are here to teach Muslims about their our faith.
Go and get a grip about the true values of Islam first before opening your mouth without objective assessments and please stop abusing your intellect with the filth of certain anti-Islam, anti-Arab and anti-Middle Eastern propaganda coming from Hollywood scripts.
This is 2010. This is the age of social networking, Google and Internet search providers that can enlighten you and let you decide on the outome on any subject but first you have to decide what your intentions are. Are they based on openess, cooperation, understanding and willingness to learn from others or you feel so arrogant that you start believing that your DNA is made of special chromosomes and ours is made of an inferior one.

No - you cannot be both Muslim and American.

They are so hidebound with male superiority, useless custom, and determined to punish women they do not really understand freedom in America, and refuse to allow their female members to be free, even if they themselves enjoy it to the fullest. We don't need such hypocrisy.

The day they are willing for their females to act and dress and blend in with America's free daughters is the day we should allow them in.

Otherwise, they can all go home tomorrow and stay there.

Only 2 million muslims in the USA.

They'd be easy to deport, let's start today.

Muslims are downright arrogant to think that they can build a mosque where Islamic extremists attacked! Muslims seem to feel that they are the ones being persecuted. Sorry, but we non-Muslims aren't buying the sob stories anymore. Muslims have done absolutely nothing to alleviate the pain and suffering of the victims of 9-11. They have contributed nothing to the effort to capture Osama bin Laden. They don't deserve what they're asking for.

It is not the reiigion that is or is not conducive to secular government. Rather it is the people's or leader's desires that manifest. Hence, Islam in the middle ages was incredibly tolerant in their communities, christianity generally intolerant. Now there are some muslim countries that are intolerant. How do you apply laws and tenets is up to people and it is followed or abused following their own proclivities.

There is a great DISCONNECT between the "words" of the Koran and the deeds of Islamists. Many have pointed out that the Koran is in fact intolerant in its doctrine, and events such as 9-11/7-11/11-26... portray this very clearly. ACTIONS ALWAYS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS! Many of these deeds and events are very deeply shameful. No mosque / Islamist center presence at Ground Zero!

Only 2 million muslums in the US.

They should be easy to deport so let's start today.

The Pilgrims came to America to escape religious persecution, and now we show the same intolerance toward Islam that we experienced.

The law is clear, we have no state religion, and we all have the RIGHT to worship in our own way. Crimes, such as 9/11, are committed by individuals, and each individual is held accountable for his own actions.

So let them build their mosques and worship as they please.

If we continue down the road of intolerance, and persecute them solely for their beliefs, we'll have riots like they have in France, and have real homegrown terrorists, like the Oklahoma City bomber, Timothy McVeigh.

The Quran, composed by a warrior conquer, calls for violent conquest or death for unbelievers. It supports deceptions to soften the infidels whom it marks for conquest. Nothing has changed in this. Let those who claim to be peaceful non-conquering Muslims refute all of the Quran that calls for this.
Muslims build their mosque centers of control
as symbols of conquest. That is why the Dome of the Rock is where it is.

History shows us, all religions have a very dangerous element to them. Unfortunately Religions usually are full of fanatics. Cultures are a more predictable barometer, of what to look for in Religions.

The Ahmadis are certainly not typical "Muslims" and are not considered Muslims by many other Moslem sects.
Like many Americans I have a very strong mistrust and dislike for Islam. I think that all Muslims in the U.S. should be required to register as "agents" and that all Mosques be closely monitored in the U.S. as they are in China. Lets face it in areas where Muslims are in the majority they do not tolerate "infidels". In fact the Koran tells them that infidels should be killed ot converted. To some extent American Muslims are "moles". They pretend to accept the limitations of being Muslims in a "infidel" nation but in reality if given the opportunity will kill non Muslims. I am not a religious person. I dislike all organized religion but particularly those that do not tolerate those whose beliefs are different than their own. I see nothing good about Islam and those who profess to follow the teachings of Mohammad. Americans should recognize that all Moslems are enemies of our country and our people.

A perfect example of taqiyya.

Taqiyya: According to Christian ethics lying is a sin; In Islamic jurisprudence and theology, the use of taqiyya against the unbelievers is regarded as a virtue and a religious duty.

Thank you for this interesting article. It would be helpful to have additional articles explaining the various Islamic groups and the differences among them. What is the Ahmadi Islamic group - its origin, number of mmembers worldwide and in the US, impact, etc.

When one does not belong to a particular faith, one sees that faith as monolithic, unaware of the spectrum of sects. For example, if one is not Catholic, one sees Catholics as just one group. When one is not Jewish, one sees Jews as all one group. When one is not Protestant, one sees all Protestants as one group. And so with Muslims.

Build it and will blow it up.

JBBOY, you said "And people who say that in Saudi Arabia non-Muslims can't practice their religion, my question to them is, do you want to live Saudi Arabia or in United States??"

Well my question to you is given the fact of Islamic apartheid in Saudi Arabia, especially in Mecca and Medina, will you as a Muslim, and if yo could afford the journey, make the obligatory hajj and go to Mecca knowing fully well that it is center and symbol of Islamic apartheid?

I am a practicing Muslim and have lived in the United States for the past 25 years. During college I had roommates who were Jewish, Christians and even communists. Today I have friends who Christians, Jews, and Sikhs. I have no problems with them and they have no problems with me. Where and how I pray is my business and no one else should dictate. This is America, that is why I chose to live here. And I am as loyal American as my Christian neighbor or my Jewish friend. People who stigmatize Islam and condemn all Muslims as bunch of terrorists are actually playing in the hands of extremists like Bin Ladin. There is nothing more a guy like Bin Ladin wants than to prove to the Muslim youth that America and the Western society is not for Muslims. And that Muslims can only trust their own kind. Condemning building of a mosque is not just racist but stupid. If a person is inclined to be a terrorist than he or she can do so without going to a mosque. It is not as if when we enter a mosque we are brainwashed into a terrorist. And people who say that in Saudi Arabia non-Muslims can't practice their religion, my question to them is, do you want to live Saudi Arabia or in United States??

I think it's worth noting the similarities and differences between Muslims and Roman Catholics on this issue. There was a time when many asked if Roman Catholics could be all Catholic and all American
given their religious allegiance to a foreign Pope. This question was
not quite as silly as it seems today, especially when the Pope had the Papal States and the Vatican was skeptical or worse about democracy.

However, Roman Catholicism was feared at that time for being essentially monolithic, while Islam has a problem for exactly the opposite reason. For many Muslims, Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, but for many other Muslims, it is not. The Koran and Islamic history can be trotted out to support either view, and in fact tells us both are true. Complicating the matter further is the reluctance of even truly peaceful and tolerant Muslims to condemn their aggressive co-religionists. This is at least perceived as creating an ocean in which the terrorist fish can swim.

Something like the Cordoba House might
sincerely be conceived for the best of reasons by some Muslims, while used as a symbol of Islamic triumphalism by others.

Islam by its name means "peace" and as such it is a moderate way of living and this can beautifully expressed by the existence of old middle age synaguoges and churches that exist in the Muslim World from Syria to Morocco to Tunisia to Spain to Iran to Egypt.
As for the notion of loyalty, each citizen of a particular country is supposed to be loyal to that country.
However there will be always a minority that will not see this step as necessary in a secular context and this doesnt apply just to Muslims but Christians and Jews as well.
For example certain Jews see their loyalty to Israel taking a priority to their loyalty to the USA even though they hold US citizenship.
There are 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide and they feel proud of belonging to different cultures whether it comes from a Malay culture, Turkish culture, Arab culture, African culture or European/Western culture and they have one bond that bring them together which is the love of a creator that wants to see the implementation of social justice, consultation from grassroots to the top and vice versa and not just few dynasties/powerful families dictating their will on millions via lobbiysts and a mainstream media in their service with the assistance of manufactured celebrities and a YES YES blind subordinates from certain THINK TANKS.

In Qur’an, as in the Bible one can find a verse which, on the face of it, supports almost every point of view. It is sufficient to spend few minutes on Fox to be convinced that God supports Rush Limbaugh and Bill O’Reilly and condemns everybody else.

There are about 1.6 billion Muslims in the world and Islam, in rate of converts, is the fastest growing religion. Very short time after its inception it conquered a continent from China to Spain and kept for a thousand years. It has been not only a political entity, but also a stronghold of philosophy, medicine and arts. Muslim scholars translated the Greek classic philosophers and brought them to attention of Europe. Islam was able to absorb the Persians, the Mongols and many Hindus. Many Muslims today believe that the modernity, led by the United States, has denied Islam its proper role in the world. They think that the so called, in their eyes, democracy, is a trap the purpose of which, it to maintain the capitalist primacy and continuing injustice to the non Western world. Some of the Muslims believe that the only way open to them is jihad against the unbelievers, as is called for, in their interpretation, by the Qur’an. Because of the overwhelming power of the West, terror, is the only open avenue for this clash of cultures. Most of the Muslims, the silent majority, do not support terror, but they also do not rise a clear voice against it.

Most Americans want to keep their way of life if necessary by force. Muslims in America must decide where do they stand in this conflict, and do so not in moderate opinions in liberal American newspapers, but in the mosques and madrassas.

A shameful Islamic apartheid is practiced not just in Mecca and Medina but in the rest of Saudi Aarabia and most of the Muslim world.

Non-Muslims are not allowed to publicly worship according to their respective faiths, they may not build their places of worship( temples, churches, synagogues, gurdwaras) and may not even enter Mecca and Medina.

When confronted with this ugly reality a typical answer is " As for building a church in Mecca--that's like building a Hindu temple in the Vatican, or building a synagogue in the Mormon Temple Complex in Salt Lake City. It's a pilgrimage city. That's its purpose."

Not quite the same. The Vatican is a very small area, 0.17 sq miles in area , less than half a mile x half a mile, about the same size as the kaaba and the surrounding walls.

It is a small area within Rome just as the kaaba is a very small area within Mecca.
Like Rome, Mecca is large city with an urban area of 328 sq miles and a metro area of 463 sq miles.

No one is demanding that a church be built inside the kaaba which is the same size as the Vatican.

Just as there are mosques in Rome outside the Vatican so should churches be allowed to be built in Mecca outside the kaaba.

Muslims should stop beating around the bush , open up Mecca and Medina to non-Muslims and allow the building of non-Muslim places of worship any where in countries that have Muslim majorities including in Mecca and Medina.

@Habibian1983

The threat that you feel as a Muslim in America is evident in your post, the threat a minority feels when some of its members commit horrible crimes against the majority.

the horrors of islam are eternalized in the holy scriptures of islam:koran,hadit, sharia.islam is the enemy and annihilator of our western democracies and democratic values.find out the truth about islam from those who were born and bred in islam and chose to abondon islam: they are known as apostates of islam and former muslims.inform yourself on islam by googling anti islam.i am an atheist,but all i can say is god protect us from this islamic deluge...

Ahmadis are not considered Muslims by most if not all Muslims. Secondly, Ahmadis like all the other Muslim sects, believe in Taqqiya; deception to further the cause of their religion. Thirdly, the Muslim scriptures which consist of Quran, Hadith and Sira have so many inconsistencies and outright contradictions that enable a person to support almost any point of view. The main ideology that permeates the Islamic jurisprudence is supremacy over, intolerance for and discrimination against non-Muslims. Islam does not recognize gender equality nor national entities and boundaries and their loyalty is for Islam as a religious-political unit called Caliphate. The last one saw its demise in 1923 and this is what the Islamist organizations are openly trying to resurrect.

As long as these folks have a religious tenet that says:"kill the infidels", Americans should NOT trust Muslims, even if they profess other attractive(?) features of their religious beliefs. A mosque near ground zero?
No, never. Trust NO muslim.

To Richardhode, Its funny that westerners decry the fact that Muslim groups are not coming out and denouncing terrorism, but when groups like the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community comes out on a national stage and comprehensively denounces terrorism and its associated acts and talks about the concept of loyalty towards one's country, this concept of "Taqiyya" that became the raalying cry of the right during Obama's campaign is presented to malign the motives of a peaceful Muslim community. Just think about what you are saying against the definition you have given for Taqiyya. I ask you what "threat, persecution, or compulsion" does the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community (or for that matter any community) face in America today that would require it to practice the concept of Taqiyya. We live in a great country that allows us to practice our religion peacefully and when we show gratitude for that kindness and exhort loyalty from those that think otherwise we are branded as conspirators who are really wolves in sheeps clothing trying to take over America and enforce Sharia law.

Hello,
This article is very good since the first word may Muslim tell to anther person is 'Salam 3alikm" which means peace.
Please note that Islam religion belief depends on Love and respect of all other religions since in Holy Quran, there is respect and love for all prophets such as Issa and Moses.
Thanks

"FREE AMERICAN MEDIA" is pure propaganda. The title goes "is it possible to be a muslim and fully american at same time", the title implies the US could be at war with all 58 muslim majority countries.
"Is it possible to be jewish and fully american ?", what about the apartheid israel lobby that buys our politicians to enable the ongoing ethnic cleansing of palestinians by apartheid israel. The posibility of being at war with one country are a lot bigger than being at war with 58 countries.

Tribal and religious separations among all peoples sets them all up for exploitation by those who only care for their own social groups. Elitists, who are typically those who control wealth and power, gain even more wealth and power when conflict prevails. This is why the poor of one nation are set upon the poor of other nations, religion and patriotism are just two of the tools that can be used to incite hatred and support for wars over resources - resources that are getting scarcer by the day. Ultimately the poor will include everyone, including the elite who have few survival skills in a world that won't recognise them as rulers anymore.

This particular minor issue is yet another way to incite yet more hatred. Patriotism is the weakest of alliances as nations can easily become enemies of their own populations, keeping in mind that insurrection is only a day or two of hunger away.

Muslims believe in sharia law...thus overthrowing the constitution "sedition" is their number one goal. They cannot be good citizens since they only answer to some false religious/political ideology. They should be placed in the same political categories as socialism/fascism.

If this mosque gets built new yorkers should burn it down. Those who r behind this mosque are the same ones who cheered on 9/11. Do not let these false prophets fool you, they are building their base in. America so they can destroy us.

Religion has nothing to do with patriotism. If it did then true believers of any religion would reject what nations do in pursuit of their national interest.

Singling out Christianity as an example, those who claim to be devout while approving of that which their country does in the shadows probably view themselves as wh-res for Christ. Presumably Magdalene was their college.

"Are Muslims required to obey non-Muslim governments?" The answer, according to Mr. Mahdi and the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, is a resounding yes."

I bet if the Ahmadis were asked this question in a Moslem country, the answer would have been a resounding no. The Ahmadis are simply practicing "taqiyya ... a dispensation allowing believers to conceal their faith when under threat, persecution or compulsion." (Wiki.)

There's nothing secular about Islam. You may incorrectly call me "islamophobe", but you will never correctly call me "dhimmi". After some 8 years of study, including 17 months living in Pakistan and Afghanistan, I've arrived at the conclusion that Islam is a primitive and violent superstition. The only peace it offers is to the defeated souls surviving a jihad. "I regret there are no more infidels to be put to the sword!", lamented the jihading general when he arrived at ancient Spain's Atlantic coast in the 8th century. The multicultural apologist momentarily congratulates himself for his tolerance, but if it were not for CIA and Air Force Predator drones killing the most committed Muslims, we'd all be buying magic carpets for a trip to Mecca five times a day.

No government could be said to be secular before Westphalia. The separation of Church and State, which is properly adored, was acrid for the Church--consider the reaction to the Magna Carta. There exists no more of a bar to Islam's being secular than Catholicism's. A mosque at the world trade towers would be a symbol against Islamism.

Sorry, but Muslim Sharia from day one has commanded Muslims to have political and social superiority over non-Muslims, and as to secularism, the concept is alien to Islam, since the word Islam means submit to Allah, which means in all aspects of life, sans the ability to separate mosque from state. Secularism is usually classified as Shirk by Islamic scholars, meaning idolatry. Without the rise of the West secularism would never have been seen in the Muslim world, and it's sad that modern Muslim disinformation artists with an agenda of stealth jihad, or hope of a future takeover of the U.S. govt. by Islam and its Sharia, are given such prominence in the Washington Post. The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights are totally at war with Islam, and always will be, and like two scorpions in a bottle only one can remain if Muslims are allowed to continue to pour into the U.S. Study Islam and its 1400-year history free online with the Historyscoper anytime and see for yourself how many secular societies Islam has created, and how non-Muslims have been and are being treated in Islamic countries: http://go.to/islamhistory

Great Article!! Very lucky that I belong to Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, one of the only Muslim Community that proclaims, loud and clear, peace and loyalty to one's country. Looking forward to reading more of your articles Insha'Allah!

Great Article! This is a message of Peace and Hope for the wise and humble!!

For the information of Rox11:
From year 726 until 1800, Muslims were ruling half of the world. If non-muslims were treated as unequal citizens, how come there were several governors who were Christians and Jews along with Muslims. There are monarchies , still in existence in the middle east which belong to that age. When Omar(rz) conquered Jerusalem,Christians and Jews , because of the honesty and piety of Hazrat Omar(rz), invited him to the temple. At one battle, when Muslims were retreating, they returned ALL of the taxes from Christians because they were not in control of that land ,anymore and the Christians were crying an praying to God that may he bring them back!
Ask any Jew under which domination they flourished the most. Without hesitance, they will say "Under Muslim Dominance"
Does that tell you something?

There are a number of stable Muslim countries where there are Christian Universities. Unfortunately just 1% of so-called Muslims are destroying the peace of a certain region does not mean that millions of Muslims are like that. We forget what happened to Joan of Arc , What happened at Glanco, Spanish inquisition!!

For the information of Jailkhosla and other misinformed readers, history tells us a total different picture.
Long before Banu Quraiza's incidence, all of the Medinites had agreed at Meesaq-e-Medina that if Medina is attacked, ALL parties will defend and for treason, there will be consequences. Banu Quraiza were guilty of treason. Furthermore, they were given an option to have a judgment made by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) which they rejected!!! Instead they chose a companion of the Holy Prophet (PBUH) who, had converted from Judaism. They thought that he would have a soft corner for his ex- fellow Jews.
Secondly this person asked ALL parties whether they will agree to whatever decision he would be making and they ALL agreed.
Thirdly he said in this case he will make a decision according to the holy book of the Jews, (since Banu Quraiza were strong believers of Judaism)which was a final word for them. In their teaching, for treason, EVERYONE should be killed!!
So if that decision was made according to Jews's own holy book, only they have to be blamed for it not the Holy Prophet(pbuh)
Lastly, if you look at the kindness of the Holy Prophet(pbh) he forgave even the bloodiest enemies at the Victory of Mecca
Dont forget Hinda (wife of Abu Jehal) who chewed the liver of Muhammad's(pbuh)'s uncle, don't forget the person who threw a spear into Holy Prophet's own daughter and killed her!!
If Banu Quraiza had chosen to have a decision made by Muhammad(pbuh) he surely would have forgiven them He was a mercy for all of them!!
One more point, read the book by Gibbon or Sir William Muir or Karen Armstrong. All these scholars, in spite of being Christians, could not say a single word about the noble character of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)

What these writers forgot to mention is that Muhammad also killed non-Muslims in cold blood. For example the entire male membership of the Jewish tribe Banu Qurayza was murdered by Muhammad and his men except for young boys who had yet to grow pubic hair.

It is amazing how verses are left out ~ that don't fit in with Islam Dawa [proselytizing] towards others.

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Let's look at Koran Verse 9:29
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""
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
""

The whole dhimmi concept is a real one. Non-Muslims living in the Islamic world have significantly less rights than Muslims.

Name one Muslim country where Non-Muslims have equal rights ~ even Turkey non-Muslims are treated very differently by the state.

When can we see a Muslim speaker who is honest ~ and who states 'although this is what the Koran says ~ this is what we are going to do in the modern world?'

Today we hear almost none of this ~ except on the rare occasion. And because what these brave Muslims are saying doesn't fit into what is politically correct ~ their words are pretty much ignored.

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The Low Down
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In Pakistan tribal lands ~ non-Muslim Hindus and Sikhs, those indegenous to the region, must pay out the Islamic jiyza tax, which is a protection tax in the Mafia sense, as they face reprisals for non-payment. Many are leaving these areas for the Punjab in lower Pakistan or northern India. Further to denote their non-Muslim status they are required to wear a 'Red' patch at all times.

Turkey is also toying with the idea of reintroducing the jizya tax for its non-Muslims, as a way to ensure their protection!! Their argument is that under the Ottoman Empire Muslims and Christians lived together 'peacefully' using this dhimmi system.

[In the days of old, non-payment of the jizya meant that a non-Muslim could be enslaved. It was only after the event of western colonialism that its collection was stopped]

The treatment of Christians in Egypt is abysmal. Bahai children aren't allowed to attend school there.

Being nice and cordial is one thing, it is the least we can do, but being sensible is another. We simply cannot allow any form of Islamic law. And we should really press Muslim nations to award non-Muslim citizens with equal rights.

I'd love it if the Ahmadiyya sect of Islam, with their belief that Islam as a purely religious calling and not at political ideology, was the accepted norm in the Muslim world.

Unfortunately, Ahmadis are discounted by the majority of Sunni and Shia Muslims as heretics, and are persecuted as non-believers just as strenuously in Muslim majority countries as Christians, Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians and atheists. Witness the recent bombings of their mosques in Lahore, Pakistan in late May.

Until the Sunni and Shia majority of Islam adherants reject the violent passages of the Quran, Haddith and Sira, take real steps to reform their religion and accept the Ahmadis as their Muslim brothers, the Ahmadiyya sect can't be considered as speaking for Islam at large.

It is nice to see that Ahmadi Muslims are faithful and loyal to the country of their residence 'America'.
We American's need to support Ahmadis and urge other Muslims to learn something from this Group.

All mainstream Muslims teach that you have to obey the government even if it is non-Muslim as long as they do not force you to sin. This doctrine is not unique to the Ahmadiyya Muslims.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2009/11/major-nidal-hasan/

Are you kidding me? I am all for Muslims reconciling their beliefs with secularism, but I'm looking for scholars and intellectuals who can do so in a more reasoned and principled manner. There is a lot of material in the sources (Quran, prophetic traditions, etc) about obeying authorities. But obeying authorities, even if they are secular/non-Muslim, doesn't mean you support or agree with secularism. The authors' claim that secularism is Islamic is based almost entirely on two Quranic verses (4:59-60). This is incredibly shoddy reasoning. It doesn't address the fact that Muhammad was a combined religious and political authority, and that the Quran includes not only personal religious prescriptions, but also legal/political injunctions. The text of the Quran, the life and teachings of Muhammad, and the way this was understood by his followers, all imply that the state should govern in light of religious teachings.

I'm not trying to say that you can't be Muslim and secular at the same time. Just that if you want to explain it, you ought to have a well-reasoned argument. You can't just quote two verses and call it a day.

Well said

"There is no compulsion in religion" declares The Holy Quran. This clearly implies a secular government.

True application of Sharia law should be a catalyst towards a moral and just society.

Pluralism and religious tolerance could be considered Islamic values, but the present day misguided clerics of Islam, have completely given up on these values, only magnifying the dire need for separation of state and mosque in all Muslim countries. Never in the history of any successful democracy has the formula for success allowed for religious law to be the dominate ideology to govern a nation.

We, the muslims who believe in the Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, have a clear vision that Islam does not legislate in the domain of man's relation to God. Islam offers guiding principles in the sphere of man's relation to man. These principles can easily be translated into secular language with laws based on justice, tolerance and love for mankind rather than hatred and bigotry This is the prescription to make the separation of state and mosque a reality, for a true democracy versus a nation with laws filled with hypocrisy that cultivate violence and terrorism.

Great article, loyalty to ones country is something all Muslims can learn from. I appreciate the Ahmadi Muslim Community for sharing this teaching with the rest of the world. Other Muslims should learn from this community and for the peace it preaches: I found alislam.org to be an excellent resource in learning about this humble community.