How about we Christians get back to what Jesus was all about: NONVIOLENCE as response to the evil of "an eye for an eye-a tooth for a tooth"?

Some of us are PRAYING and Fasting for 40 Days beginning 1 July 2010 that all Christians would come to comprehend that to follow Jesus requires you do as he did and PUT DOWN THE SWORD!

Why it is that "Everyone but Christians understands that Jesus was nonviolent."-Gandhi @
http://www.wearewideawake.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1769&Itemid=234

PS: I have been reporting from Israel Palestine since 2005.

Eileen Fleming, Producer "30 Minutes with Vanunu" and "13 Minutes with Vanunu"
Founder of WeAreWideAwake.org
Staff Member of Salem-news.com
A Feature Correspondent for Arabisto.com and Dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/
Author of "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
http://www.youtube.com/user/eileenfleming

Only in Solidarity do "we have it in our power to begin the world again."-Tom Paine

See: Nation of Islam VS. Unites States?

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/NatIsl_81/5800_81.htm

It sounds like the Enemy Within case or story.

No wonder why Islamic [Wahhabi Theocracy and Monarchy] Saudi Arabia and OPEC wants to Stop the "Petro-Dollar" System of payment to our Commercial-Bank system here. All Because of heretics like the Nation of Islam make Original Sunni and Shiiat Community look bad here in America.

They [Arabs] are afraid that America is becoming too unstable within by such bold wannabe Ishmaeli's [NOI].

I agree, in whole and in part with blogger "shaheed-yahudi" [Jewish Martyr] below.

Remember: It was the Islamic Community that sold-slaves to the None-islamic community out of Africa. So Islam has no part in early, middle or late American history.

From it's birth, American-Made, Islam is always been un-American and now more than ever. something must be done about Louis Farrakhan and Nation of Islam.

SATAN is oviously using us only to spoil us or ruin us.

The real question is, with all the other pressing issue in the world, what motivates the milk-toast Presbyterians who looked the other way for decades at wars in Vietnam and Iraq, now to take on Israel and their inseparable American Jews?

Shame On ALL, Every & Any, "NOt Made In America" P R E S B Y T A R i A N leaderships (not their naive lambs, aka Suuckers).

Oooppss. Correction:

Soo, We [i] now prove that "RELIGiON Is NO SCIENCE" nor ever was!

Note; When i [WE] say'th "RELiGION" we mean NOT-Made-In-America [iMported] Religion SYSTEM(s) Competing/Hassling/Maiming over a Name for "My GOD/god(s)". Meaning Al, Every & Any

Judeo-ABE-Ju's! Judeo-ABE-Christians(includes Mormons)! Jude-ABE-iSlami! et al plus(+) any Judeo=VEDiC-Hindu! & Judeo-VEDiC-Buddha! & Judeo-VEDiC-Sikh (Confucius/Shinto/Tao-izm..) et al!

Soo, NONe of the Above is "SCiENCE"! There's nothing Scientific About ANY of said 'Self-Serving- Organized-Religions, aye! Sorry.

How can Any Human Being DARE to proclaim that They Have a "DR." or "PH.D" in G-D? Pleazzza; It's Impossible!

Note: Besides Katharine Henderson belief; see adjacent'Huffingtonpost' link/Article here entitled, "WHAT Scientists Think About Religion" with Elaine Howard "PH.D"r, is soo soo LAME, let alone BLIND!

Hint: There is a night & day difference between a PRE-APOCALYPTARian-SCiENTIST & a APOCALYPTARiAN-Scientist(s)!

Fact: Hir Albert Einstein {pbuh] Was Wrong when saying, "Religion w/out Science..." blablabla. Note; the worlds real "BLUNDER". The Ultimate Deception. Secret Revealation: Mr. A.E. Did NOt mean that!

Our Father [pbuh] Only Said that, "Science w/out religion lalala" stuff to Appease the Religionist on Earth At the Time; since Religionists was killing & Diaspora'ng the Judeo-Abe-UMMAH in Euro & Elswhere! {Hoping that they (Judeo-Abe-Christian & Judeo-Abe-Islami's will go-easy on the Judeo-Abe-Ummah. Note It was late 1933's when A.E. {pbuh} Freidiantly Slipped & thus said that. HE (pbuh) DID NOT MEAN IT; Yet wisely said What Ye (none Judeo-Ju Ummah) Wanted To Hear; at the time!

Remember: WE [i] all are "STUDENTS FOREVER OF SOURCE-1" & WE [i] NEVER GRADUATE"!

Soo, We [i] now prove that "RELIGiON Is NO SCIENCE" nor ever was! Other (un)Wise All R' very "SUPER-STUPID-STITIOUS" to think that. Hence the Delusion/Illusion lingering Effect which needs a Secular Psycho-Analytical Correction.

Summary: NO Human Being, on S.pace-S.hip Earth, can ever have nor acquire or posses a PH.D or DR. in "Divinity Degree." IMPOSSIBLO! It is Truly Blasphemous towards our "Holyi-Cosmic-feelings" & is a insult to OUR iNtelligence (NOt "I.D."). Note: i [WE] call it "Licensed Jealousy".

Interesting. On June.21st i [WE] posted a lnk to jpost at:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=178658

under "R" & Caption: "Tax-Exempt Church (A Not-Made-In-America Religion) Playing Politics?" (w/Those whom they stole their religion from[Jude-ABE-Ju's]. i.e., Stole Rabbi Jesus. Same Like Islamic Stole ABE System. Pigs!!!

This is Good News! It simply means that This 'NOT-MADE-IN-AMERICA' [Presbyterian?) Religion is gots Lots & Lots of 'Spare-Change (rich). So OUR argument [To Abolish CHURCH based Tax-Exemption in America] proves that CHURCh's, like this, are playing Politics" (promoting) contrary to their 503 (c) Tax Free StatUS's. Soo,

The PRESBYTERIAN ummah Must Pay Tax's (or Sooner) starting 2015/15! NO exceptions!

DON'T Buy Anything From Any, Every & ALL "P R E S B Y T E R i A N" Business/Biz or such owner/folks/family/friend of any Goods, Services or Foods they compete in, in America's & in Israel or anywhere else on Earth; Includes NOt Buy anything in T U R K I S H restaurants, their Goods & their Services! SECULARS/CONSUMER hath ALL The POWER; NOt G-D Players!

Time to Boycott PRESBYTERIANizm [Divine?] Threat/Spread in AMERi/Israeli & Elsewhere!

Amazing, NO Grace! The Dumbist Religion on Earth; next to Islami-Ummahni!

PC(USA) and Hezbollah--There were at least two meetings, and, again, PResbyterians were delighted to praise and advertise Al Qaeda related Hezbollah.

The Church fired the two people responsible for organizing the trip in one breath and went on to deny any responsibility in the next. The entire affair is disgraceful from beginning to end as any Christian or Jew missing limbs, will tell you.

Why the PResbyterians' activities were not teemed treason is difficult to say. Israel should have nothing to do with these people. Something is seriously wrong here.

http://c4rpme.org/bin/articles.cgi?Cat=divestment&Subcat=presbyterian&ID=40

The motives of the Committee of seven who sponsored this "resolution" are fairly clear, and they have nothing to do with concern for anyone.

The Church is fabulously wealthy, invests heavily in OIL COMPANIES (scroll down), companies guilty of bankrupting America, companies charged with gross human rights violations--all of which are also involved with OIL and the exploitation of third-world peoples. I did not mention Nucor, another PC(USA) investment project that is guilty of slavery.

The simple fact that this "church" has investment, banking, and loan operations should raise eyebrows. What is a tax exempt religion doing with the likes of those?

They are planning to divest their (EIGHT BILLION DOLLAR) holdings with all companies that do business with the military, which should greatly encourage our children engaged in pointless wars.

They recently sent Presbyterian "ambassadors" to the Middle East for a spree with Hezbollah, which cost the Church nearly 200, 0000, which, from the looks of it was a mere pittance to them.

In fairness, there are Presbyterian ministers and congregants posting their outrage all over the web at this "resolution" against Israel.

Presbyterian churches from Florida to California are severing their ties with PC(USA) and this "resolution" is one of the current reasons.

The divestment regarding Israel concerns very little money, and although I cannot speak for anyone else, given what this Church is--that it invested in SADDAAM HUSSEIN's IRAQ, eg.--I cannot see why Jews or anyone else, for that matter would want to have ought to do with them.

These "accusers" are exactly what the web reveals them to be.

What is called for is an AUDIT of PCUSA and review of its non-profit status.

Scroll down to find some of its stranger bedfellows.

In the meantime, for all the reasons mentioned, for its vicious associations with terror, let the PC(USA) go. Do not do business with any companies with which this church deals. Write your public officials demanding an audit.

If you need a listing of its current investments, post, and I'll supply you. And take heart, breakaway churches tell us that PC(USA) should be gone within thirty years, at most.

Why would anyone in the Jewish or Christian polity in Israel honestly care what the Presbyterians want? Do Israelis care what Hindus in India think about the Israeli / Palestinian conflict? Answer: No.

Israel is a Jewish state first and foremost and will remain such.

Israel will do fine with or without the support of do-gooders, philosophers, Presbyterians (or other Christians for that matter), theologians, well-wishers, and Americans.

62 years later after the ethnic cleansing of an indigenous population in a European colonization of the Holy Land . . . and you still want to listen (to those who supported it)?

Can you tell me one asymmetric conflict that was solved by listening for seven decades?

Was South Africa freed by listening to white racists of Dutch decent in the US who supported Apartheid? During the fight against slavery were righteous preachers asking for a delay to action so we could listen to slave-owners’ concerns?

Is there one part of the report that you factually disagree with?

Just when would you give up with listening (and do you think anyone in the this country hasn’t heard the Zionist narrative already)?

Israeli defense policy isn't driven by the Israeli majority, which is for the most part composed of moral and humanitarian people. Rather it is driven by the settler movement, which is comprised of psychotic religious degenerates living under a code of racism which makes even the worse American racism look positively benign. Until the settlers are in prison America should not tender one dime or one bullet to Israel.

For a take on what Hezbollah does to Christians, see this web site.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/world/middleeast/28refugees.html?_r=1

The United States has declared Hezbollah a terrorist organization; however, Elder Stone and his co-Presbyterians who praised it and advertised its television network evidentally do not care.

Presbyterian churches from Florida to California are breaking with PC(USA).

farnaz_mansouri2 - You know damn well, you are a total jerk here. Posting your stupid propagandist distractions on church investments, to take up space. Parasite!

With your efforts to kill the truth, YOU invest in dead Palestinian children!

Posted by: AIPACiswar
------------------------
Do not think for a moment that I was unaware of your racist presence. If you continue to blog here, I will post your numerous racist garbage scribbling, though it take me forever.

All you have to do to confirm my postings is use Google, with which, if its beyond you, someone can help.

One day, you may realize why everyone who knows what you are wants nothing to do with you.

You have no arguments, no ability with evidence, and absurdly think that racism substitutes for them.

Why do you hate Jesus so much?

All you fools who say Israeli "occupation" is the problem...where were the Arabs
between 1948 and 1967 when there was no excuse of occupation for not making peace. If anyone usurped land it was the Arabs in 1948 who occupied and virtually destroyed East Jerusalem and what is now the West Bank in the war they declared when the UN established a Jewish State AND an Arab one.
Where were the Pals when they turned down 97% of the land AND a capital in East Jerusalem. And today it is the Palestinians who say no Jew can live in whatever state (if any) they wind up with. Arabs in Israel have citizenship,work, are members of the Kenesset and have more rights than they would have in any Arab country. Ever ask yourself why the "Palestinians" have been thrown out of so many places..Jordan, Lebanon, Algeria and Kuwait. Ever wonder why Egypt made peace and took back the Sinai but, didn't want Gaza (and blockades it today)or why Jordan made peace and didn't want the "West Bank". Think about reality people and then see who is the problem!!!

farnaz_mansouri2 - You know damn well, you are a total jerk here. Posting your stupid propagandist distractions on church investments, to take up space. Parasite!

With your efforts to kill the truth, YOU invest in dead Palestinian children!

Seems that Iran not only exports Shiite nuts but also Jewish nuts like Farnaz.

Posted by: alientech
---------------------------
Sorry, but PCUSA's investments in companies guilty of numerous human rights violations, nations like Saddaam Hussein's Irad, banking establishments that launched us into a global depression do not speak well for it.

Neither do its overall investment, banking and loan operations, etc., etc.
This is a matter of record, and I've relied on PCUSA documents readily accessible to get the information I've posted.

Oil investments, among other unsavory motives, are behind this divestment business. And, to repeat, the money with respect to two corporations doing business with Israel is very little.

I'll check but I think it comes to less than the 200,000 dollars PCUSA recently shelled out so that two of its members could go on a spree with Hezbollah.

Again, I cannot understand why Jews or anyone else who becomes aware of what this fabulously wealthy "church" is up to would want anything to do with them.

What is needed is a thorough audit of PC(USA), and a review of its nonprofit status.

Your homophobia and racism against Jews and Muslims does not speak well of your affiliation, I might add. But they are among those unfortunate qualities ever in evidence in your scribbles. What the point is, no one ever seems to know.

The issues regarding PC(USA) are serious. Your silly prejudices are the last gasp of a morally depleted soul. I am sorry for you, but I will not deal with racialist, xenophobic rhetoric.

More antiSemitism from the left....

No problem....impose Sharia in San Francisco while you are kissing muslim posteriors......

The authors of this article accuse the report of not being historically accurate yet don't mention any specifics. That's a major accusation to make without mentioning one example of a historical innacuracy mentioned in the report.

Seems that Iran not only exports Shiite nuts but also Jewish nuts like Farnaz.

The motives of the Committee of seven who sponsored this "resolution" are fairly clear.

The Church is fabulously wealthy, invests heavily in oil companies (scroll down), companies guilty of bankrupting America, companies charged with gross human rights violations.

These people have investment, banking, and loan operations. What is a tax exempt religion doing with the likes of those?

They are planning to divest their (EIGHT BILLION DOLLAR) holdings with all companies that do business with the military, which should greatly encourage our children engaged in pointless wars.

They recently sent two Presbyterian "ambassadors" to the Middle East for a spree with Hezbollah, which cost the Church nearly 200, 0000, which, from the looks of it was a mere pittance to them.

In fairness, there are Presbyterian ministers and congregants posting their outrage all over the web at this "resolution" against Israel. The same is true of other Christians furious at the Presbyterians and of Catholics.

The divestment regarding Israel concerns very little money, and although I cannot speak for anyone else, given what this Church is--that it invested in Saddaam Hussein's Iraq, eg.--I cannot see why Jews or anyone else, for that matter would want to have ought to do with them.

In fact, anyone perusing the web will find numerous posts from those who have left this church for God knows how many reasons.

What is called for is an AUDIT of PCUSA and review of its non-profit status.

Scroll down to find some of its stranger bedfellows.

Katharine Henderson and Gustav Niebuhr, the authors of this article appear to be lying when they say:

"And we need to listen to all involved, including American Jews, essential partners who were not consulted in the report's preparation."

http://www.pcusa.org/middleeastpeace/pdf/middleeastpeace-fullreport.pdf
On page 142 there is a list of contacts used to make the report. It appears that some of these contacts are jewish americans.
" HE Ambassador Thomas Goldberger, director, Office of Israel and Palestinian Affairs, Bureau of Near
Eastern Affairs, U.S. Department of State"
" Attorney Mark Pelavin, associate director, Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism"

Katharine Henderson and Gustav Niebuhr, the authors of this report appear to be lying when they say: "And we need to listen to all involved, including American Jews, essential partners who were not consulted in the report's preparation."

http://www.pcusa.org/middleeastpeace/pdf/middleeastpeace-fullreport.pdf

On page 142 there is a list of contacts used to make the report. It appears that some of these contacts are jewish americans.

" HE Ambassador Thomas Goldberger, director, Office of Israel and Palestinian Affairs, Bureau of Near
Eastern Affairs, U.S. Department of State"

" Attorney Mark Pelavin, associate director, Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism"

I applaud the Presbyterians for standing up to what is, without question, evil. Any church that does not stand up now to call Israeli policies what they are- evil - is not a christian church. Don't be intimidated, learn what is happening and call Israel what it is, a rogue state that will stop at nothing to grab land and drive the Palestinians out of their country. Ethnic cleansing, mindless killing, daily humiliations should remind Israelis of something - the attacks on Jews by Nazis for example. Israelis have become, what I presume,they most fear, Nazis.

More on the investments of the Multi-Billion-Dollar, Savings, Investment, and Loan, TAX EXEMPT Presbyterian Church--defender of human rights, would-be converters of Jews, and "God's People."

JP MOrgan, Liberty International, CTI, Bank of America

Dow Chemical, Chevron, Coca-Cola (bottled water causing water shortages in third-word countries)

More to come, and scroll down.

I disagree. The U.S. media and establishment are so deep in the corner of Israel that many people wonder whether the U.S. is simply a large appendage of Israel. Simple rebuke is not enough. The U.S. should stop providing economic, political and military cover the terroristic policies of the Israel and only then Israel would consider making more seriously. Right now, it has no incentive. Countries and individuals should re-direct their aid to Hamas and other organizations fight Israeli occupation that has mades the lives of millions a living hell.

double standard? It's only finger pointing when the fingers aren't pointed at the palestinians." Katharine Henderson and Gustav Niebuhr either didn't read the report or are maybe getting favors for doing this piece. Maybe deals with a publisher for their new books?

Patience with Israel has run thin, for those who have watched her, over the long years, beg them to understand her plight (that she brings on herself, incidentally); while all the time continuing to co-opt Palestinian territory for her own aggrandizement. Which, incidentally, Israel assigns a holy mission.

Are they fools, who continue to have patience with Israel? Perhaps the Presbyterians have simply come to their senses.

daweeni - Is that your best example, a Reagan era mistake?

Anyway, why would I suppose it would be the same? That was then. And if our military is so smart it should have learned by now to not house soldiers in high rise buildings with poor security.

The idea was hypothetical anyway: We'd land on the beaches in Gaza and drive the Israelis back to their 67 border. That's a war I might support.

AIPACISWAR

The last time the US Marines were asked to protect Palestinians, they had a barracks full of Leathernecks blown to hell by Islamic Jihadis for all their troubles. Why do you think Gaza will be any different than Beirut?

Some countries in which the fabulously wealthy and tax exempt PCUSA has investments:
Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, IRan, Iraq, Sudan.

The Tax Exempt Multi-billion-Dollar Investment, Savings, and Loan Presbyterian Church (USA) also invested in SADAAM HUSSEIN'S IRAQ.

Their investments in Sudan involved a corporation that was involved in genocide, but the Presbyterian Church evidently ended that investment.

What is going on here?

farnaz_mansouri2 You are a real jerk, how about you TRY to stay on the topic? Too difficult for you?

Update on PCUSA's investment portfolio

MORE on Presbyterian USA investments: HALIBURTON, WAL-Mart, OCCIDENTAL PETROLEUM.

IT GETS worse. Will post soon.

In fairness, there are all over the web, self-identified ministers, along with lay Presbyterians, who are scathingly critical of the "resolution" involving Israel, as well as of PCUSA's investments. Christians and Catholics are also highly critical of PCUSA.

Still checking on PCUSA's wealth, investments, loan practices, etc.

Israeli apologists just don't get it.

Peace process? We ain't talking peace process anymore, we want you sobs and your IDF to stop killing women and children with impunity, stealing land, and destroying Palestinian life to stress the population. Your right wing government is completely out of control.

Personally, I'd like to see US Marines in Gaza protecting the people.

The pictures and stories and statistics all enforce the increasingly better understood notion that Israel is a brutal occupier. The foot dragging and deal breaking and underhanded settlement building all enforce the increasingly better understood notion that Israel is a disingenuous partner in any agreement process, the just use the process to buy time to steal and build.

It's no wonder the Presbyterians are shocked, Israel's behavior is shocking and eventually somebody has to stand up and show a conscience.

The people who run this Blog are no doubt very much in the pocket of AIPAC etc. Bravo to the Presbyterian Church!

I'd slap this author, but this is the internet.

I'm still trying to understand how a church, benefiting from non-profit status has EIGHT BILLION dollars to invest in one particular domain, namely businesses that engage with the US military from which patriotic PCUSA plans to divest. Very supportive of our soldiers fighting in these pointless wars.

At all events, in investigating this Church, which I had formerly thought honetly liberal, I've discovered that it has LOAN operations, in addition to savings and investment banks. Nice nonprofit work if you can get it.

Meanwhile PCUSA is enormously wealthy while Americans cannot find jobs, are losing their homes, etc.

MOst interesting for the current discussion on Israel, thus far, I've found that the PResbyterian Church have huge investments in CONOCO Philips, EXXON MOBILE, SHELL!

Still looking. Interesting Sharks err Church.

I'm tired of israelis posting comments on american newspapers pretending to be americans (i.e. georges2). All of the ignorant banter on this discussion from israelis who haven't read the above mentioned report is very irritating. The blantantly shallow pro-israel comments are obviously propaganda and are drowning my and others free speech as americans. I think wapost should show the location of those making comments by country.

"My wife and I have left the Southern Baptist Church because... (they teach that) woman are second-class citizens..."

But according to your Bible, women ARE second-class citizens put on Earth to serve men. I don't see what your problem is.

"...among other pre-historic beliefs...

All religions are composed of pre-historic beliefs.

"...we liked what we read in the newspaper about (a Presbyterian minister)..."

So you attend a church based on what you like and not what you believe? Sounds like you have a crisis, not the people who lead the churches you don't like.

"But then what could I expect when we have someone like Obama in the White House?"

And Obama is the anti-Christ, right? You need a new psychiatrist, not a new church.

Posted by: georges2 | June 27, 2010 7:18 PM
Report Offensive Comment

Israel is America's sacred cow and you've sold your souls to it.

The modern Israeli state is predicated on the existence of a permanent state of undeclared war against Palestinians...until all Palestinians have been exterminated. That is Israel's "final solution."

Israel is God's plague upon the United States for it's sins. When Israel falls into the abyss the US will be dragged down with it.

First, there was a Jewish problem.

Now, there is an Israel problem.

It is now politically incorrect to be anti Semitic.

It is now politically correct to be anti Israel.

I am not anti Semitic.

I am just anti Israeli, or I am just criticizing Israeli policies.

Of course, that criticism ignores the complex history of the conflict and blames the Jews.

Yawn......

Same old, same old.

The Presbyterians should be honest enough to address how they really feel.

At least their church would be guilty of one less sin,.... hypocrisy.

Yawn.....

My wife and I have left the Southern Baptist Church because the one we attended went from "moderate" to "ultra-conservative" - believing that woman are second-class citizens and must do a man's bidding - among other pre-historic beliefs. The First Presbyterian Church in our city has a new minister, and we liked what we read in the newspaper about him, and we had planned to attend services next Sunday. Now this. I cannot belong to a domination that condems Israel. And I am absolutely astonished at the short memories of the people who have posted on this site. But then what could I expect when we have someone like Obama in the White House?

Will those who are advocating the boycott also boycott those nations that expelled three million of us? Who stole our property? Who killed us?

Will they boycott Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, where a young rabbi was recently murdered, ending a three-thousand-year-old civilization? Will it boycott Egypt? Morocco?

We Js would like to go home. I want my daughter to see Shiraz.

In the meantime, your report states that Israel was a misguided attempt to "solve the JEWISH PROBLEM" (SIC). This phrase, your writers LITERALLY borrowed from a co-Christian, Adolf Hitler.

The Presbyterian Church is establishing itself as a Hostile Nation, as a racist nation.

According to your report, you are also planning to divest from all enterprises doing business with the US military. That should make our children fighting in these pointless wars feel good, shouldn't it?

You also say the PCUSA invests EIGHT BILLION in military related businesses. WHAT, pray tell, is a TAX EXEMPT religion doing with an extra EIGHT BILLION to invest here and there? Now, just how exactly does that work?

You decided not to give up on your "CONVERSION" activities viz a viz Jews. Hilarious or despicable? Hard to say....

NOw, you say you are "God's people." I say, Poor G-d.

Finally some real "Christians"--and, no, not the authors of this Washpost piece. I am Christian (can't help it) disgusted with the Born-Againers in America who have turned off their brains. And with religion in general. I kinda remember Christ (a Jew) on the side of the oppressed, the weak, the outcasts from society. Sorry, that's the Palistinians not the powerful State of Israel. Good for the Presbyterians!

How are the Presbyterians just like Jimmy Carter? They have no real "spiritual" purpose. Always wrong and never on the side of God.

The State of 'palestine' quiz:

1.) When was the country 'palestine' founded and by whom?

2.) What were its borders?

3.) What was its capital?

4.) What were its major cities?

5.) Name at least 1 'palestinian leader' before Arafat

6.) What is the language of the 'Country of palestine'?

7.) What was the prevalent religion of the 'ancient country of palestine'?

8.) What was is currency?

9.) Take any date in history and say what the exchange rate for 'palestinian' unit is againt the dollar, yen, yuan, mark, or pound on that date.

10.) Since there is no 'palestine' today what caused its demise and when?

11.) Why did the 'palestinians' never try to become independent until after the devastating defeat of invading Arab states in the 1967 Six Day War?

Israel has enough critics as it is. Adding the Presbyterians simply adds to the ongoing controversy as it is now. Please explain to me what it is that Israel has done to merit criticism similar to that shown for Hitler's regime in the later days of his domination in Europe? One small nation that believes in the one and only God and whose Son is Jesus Christ! Obviously there are more than 50 ways for nations to behave as pharisee's even in these troubled times!

What happens when a fly falls into a coffee cup?

The Italian-throws the cup and walks away in a fit of rage.
The Frenchman-takes out the fly, and drinks the coffee.

The Chinese - eats the fly and throws away the coffee.
The Russian - Drinks the coffee with the fly, since it was extra with
no charge.

The Israeli - sells the coffee to the Frenchman, the fly to the
Chinese, buys himself a new cup of coffee and uses the extra money to
invent a device that prevents flies from falling into coffee.

The Palestinian - blames the Israeli for the fly falling in his
coffee, protests the act of aggression to the UN, takes a loan from
the European Union to buy a new cup of coffee, uses the money to
purchase explosives and then blows up the coffee house where the
Italian, the Frenchman, the Chinese, and the Russian are all trying to
explain to the Israeli that he should give away his cup of coffee to
the Palestinians

Just for balanced view, I'd like to know how many WaPo reports are sympathetic to the Palestinian suffering vs the number of reporters sympathetic to furthering the Israeli agenda

Concern about cannibalism of Pygmies or the Turkish Catholic Bishop whose head was recently detached, might seem a tad more important. Turkey is a recipient of military aid, $1.3 B, third, after Israel and Egypt. The most spirited antagonist of Israel is Mr. Findley, whose support of a very undemocratic, at the time, South Korea, is well known. Why is criticism of non-Jewish states so comparatively vapid?

The Israelis must be laughing all the way to Gaza. If no one does anything more than this, they gain time for their final solution, ethnic cleansing. The Presbyterians' plan amounts to little more than hand holding and praying. Nothing will come of more meetings between teenagers. We tried that twenty, thirty years ago, and yet the settlements go on.

If the Jews had settled uninhabited Greenland (assuming it was uninhabited)would these critics be silent? I think not. Their concern is not with the partially displaced Arabs of Palestine about whom they care not a fig. They just won't want Jews free, powerful and independent.

Israel can steal, deceive, murder, starve, persecute, and humiliate ------ but it can do no wrong.

What can you say? Lies come apart, eventually. The zionists started the brawl, not Hitler. The zionists stole a "country" they have no more right to than the Aryans had to the Third Reich. Israel was founded by terrorism, backdoor political deal-making and massive propaganda. (read:lies) And we're all getting just a little sick of the "we're always the victims" scams of the schoolyard bullies who start endless and countless conflicts in the playground and then get their rears kicked.

The only thing "God's Chosen" are victims of is their hideous belief system.

It is past time for the US to stop supporting terrorists and halt the military aid to Israel. We must force this terrorist organization to become a member of the non proliferation pact and dismantle their illegal nuclear stockpiles. The middle east will never be secure until these terrorists no longer posses nuclear weapons and are held to answer for their criminal acts.

Will those who are advocating the boycott also boycott those nations that expelled three million of us? Who stole our property? Who killed us?

Will they boycott Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, where a young rabbi was recently murdered, ending a three-thousand-year-old civilization? Will it boycott Egypt? Morocco?

We Js would like to go home. I want my daughter to see Shiraz.

In the meantime, your report states that Israel was a misguided attempt to "solve the JEWISH PROBLEM" (SIC). This phrase, your writers LITERALLY borrowed from a co-Christian, Adolf Hitler.

So, what are we Jews to say. The Presbyterian Church is establishing itself as a Hostile Nation, as a racist nation.

Question: How do we solve the Presbyterian problem?

I don't know what happened between the wars of 1967 and 1973, but the shift from seeing Israel politically correct to "Palestinians" politically correct, let alone the shift in victimhood, started somewhere in that time frame. What has happened since then is an escalation of Israeli hatred. Make no mistake about it, though. It is anti-Semitism, fanned by excellent propaganda from the Arab states, especially Egypt; a fairly recent TV series that never mentioned Israel was a presentation of every European anti-Semitic libel ever invented; it was a visual presentation of the medieval blood libels and the infamous, incorrect "Protocols of the Edlers of Zion", a czarist-era Russian concoction. The show was intended to ultimately morph into anti-Israel hatred, which it did, and - this is the important part - make it okay in Europe to hate Jews under the rubric of hating Israelis/loving Palestinians. That the same bigots aren't getting so upset over Darfur or the Rape of Tibet or still existing worldwide slavery is beside the point: they want to hate Jews. I'm afraid that this seems to include the Presbyterian leadership. And, no the people in Gaza are not hurting for food; they are hurting for good leadership which has lead them astray for all these years: it's easier to focus on hate rather than on building a viable society. It is also distracting from leaders who put billions of international aide money away for personal fortunes in Swiss banks or buy apartments for their wives in Paris. Israel is an incredibly diverse (Jews, Muslims [Sunni and Shia], Druze, Christians [Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Copts], Buddhists) country that has built a vibrant society; compare that to the totalitarian, single religion states like Saudi Arabia. "Palestinians" could have also had a vibrant society had they had the leaders with a desire to lead them there.

it's about time a religious body took on the state of israel... but they'd better watch out or congress will charge them with giving material support to terrorists. heaven forbid the presbyterians send food to gaza, eh?

but another way to look at this... in 1978, it came out that the top 4 church denominations, including presbytery, had made over $8 billion in untaxed revenue from investments specifically made in war companies during the vietnam war. hey, there's profit in ever body bag, even if it is a baby body in the bag, eh?

one thing is clear about the jew/christian/moslem cults is that they will never in a million yearas beat swords into ploughshares. these armageddonists love nothing bettter than butchering innocents. and they get better at it every day.

israel sits there with over 200 nukes, each some 75-100 times more explosive than the ones the US dropped on defenseless civilians at hiroshima/nagasaki. in august of 2009, israel flatly refused to cooperate with the UN inspections, called it "anti-semitic." had iran said it was just 'anti-persian' and refused?

if israel were blockaded and embargoed, a virtual concentration camp like gaza; would israel be crying and calling it nazi terrorism?

plainly, if it had been an israeli ship with 700 israelis aboard, piratically seized on the high seas with several unarmed persons shot to death at point blank range... israel would have denounced the act as terrorist and would now be bombing the country responsible, with the full backing of the US reich, er, government.

People should speak the truth and not worry about pleasing or displeasing any body. That is what God wants us to do: Speak the truth as you see or know it.

Religion is to blame. Reading the responses on here sums it up for me, the weak fall for the mind control of imaginary characters then pick teams and fight over words written by some dead guys. Grow up.

Since the Apartheid treatment of American Indians is now documented in a UN report (see link below), I'm assuming that the Presbyterians will now be divesting from the United States of America.

The United States of America genocided 180,000,000 Native Americans, and continues to steal their land to this day. It has confined the indigenous people to "reservations" where the average life expectancy is fifty-eight. It has failed to honor its treaty obligations, and, according to the United Nations, has made of the Native Americans, one of the poorest of the developing nations.

http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/3258/81/
-------------------------------------
I notice your report also demands divestment from all companies currently doing business with the American military so it should not take much to go that extra step and simply divest from all American businesses.
--------------------------------------
YOU did NOT, however, vote to stop your conversion activities vis a vis Jews, which I tell you, is among those things that makes your church distasteful to many.
Something to consider....
--------------------------------------
Your report states that "Israel has no right to exist," that it was an erroneous attempt to solve the "Jewish problem"....

NOW, let me ask you: How do we solve the Presbyterian problem?

I don't know what happened between the wars of 1967 and 1973, but the shift from seeing Israel politically correct to "Palestinians" politically correct, let alone the shift in victimhood, started somewhere in that time frame. What has happened since then is an escalation of Israeli hatred. Make no mistake about it, though. It is anti-Semitism, fanned by excellent propaganda from the Arab states, especially Egypt; a fairly recent TV series that never mentioned Israel was a presentation of every European anti-Semitic libel ever invented; it was a visual presentation of the medieval blood libels and the infamous, incorrect "Protocols of the Edlers of Zion", a czarist-era Russian concoction. The show was intended to ultimately morph into anti-Israel hatred, which it did, and - this is the important part - make it okay in Europe to hate Jews under the rubric of hating Israelis/loving Palestinians. That the same bigots aren't getting so upset over Darfur or the Rape of Tibet or still existing worldwide slavery is beside the point: they want to hate Jews. I'm afraid that this seems to include the Presbyterian leadership. And, no the people in Gaza are not hurting for food; they are hurting for good leadership which has lead them astray for all these years: it's easier to focus on hate rather than on building a viable society. It is also distracting from leaders who put billions of international aide money away for personal fortunes in Swiss banks or buy apartments for their wives in Paris. Israel is an incredibly diverse (Jews, Muslims [Sunni and Shia], Druze, Christians [Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Copts], Buddhists) country that has built a vibrant society; compare that to the totalitarian, single religion states like Saudi Arabia. "Palestinians" could have also had a vibrant society had they had the leaders with a desire to lead them there.

THE FOLLOWING LINK IS PERHAPS THE MOST IMPORTANT LINK ON THE WEB REGARDING ISRAEL'S CRITICAL SECURITY NEEDS FOR A VIABLE PEACE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytWmPqY8TE0

"The most significant action Israel could take to demonstrate good faith would be a settlement freeze." - President Reagan 1983

... over and over Israel spits in America's face... under GWB's Roadmap to Peace and again today with the Obama administration ... it's clear that the right-wing extremist Zionist do not want peace!

Before deciding to divest have a look at the following link please:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4223984/glenn-beck-web-exclusive

See the following most important link prior to decision to divest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHBvunVErJU&feature=related

Helsinki Principles on the Law of Maritime Neutrality

5.1.2(3) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be
attacked if they are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying
contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they
intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly
resist visit, search, capture or diversion.

5.1.2(4) Merchant ships flying the flag of a neutral State may be
attacked if they:

(a) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) are incorporated into or assist the enemy’s intelligence system;
(e) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy’s military
action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible
for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place
of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a
warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other
precautions.

5.2.1 Visit and search

As an exception to Principle 5.1.2 paragraph 1 and in accordance with
Principle 1.3 (2nd sentence), belligerent warships have a right to
visit and search vis-à-vis neutral commercial ships in order to
ascertain the character and destination of their cargo. If a ship
tries to evade this control or offers resistance, measures of coercion
necessary to exercise this right are permissible. This includes the
right to divert a ship where visit and search at the place where the
ship is encountered are not practical.

5.2.10 Blockade

Blockade, i.e. the interdiction of all or certain maritime traffic
coming from or going to a port or coast of a belligerent, is a
legitimate method of naval warfare. In order to be valid, the blockade
must be declared, notified to belligerent and neutral States,
effective and applied impartially to ships of all States. A blockade
may not bar access to neutral ports or coasts. Neutral vessels
believed on reasonable and probable grounds to be breaching a blockade
may be stopped and captured. If they, after prior warning, clearly
resist capture, they may be attacked.

Militant Hamas declared platform of ongoing war on Israel and lobbed
indiscriminately 8500 lethal rockets into israel towns and cities in
the last 9 years.Hamas' war platform against Israel was voted in
favour by Gaza residents in sort of free elections as if one can do
anything about its leader's purely militant platform.

Egypt's Mubarak called Hamas roaming gang of thugs and Mubarak joined
Israel and more by sealing gate from Egypt to Gaza and aware like
Israel of thousands of tons of ammunition that Hamas smuggles under
hundreds if not thousands of tunnels has proceeded to take action by
sealing same tunnels. But the sealing is done half heartedly as
witnessed of continued building and smuggling non-stop.

Helsinki principles of maritime law condone Israel's raid on the one
ship carrying no aid but violent mercenaries.

Hamas kidnapped an Israel 19 year old reservist Gilad Schalit (also a
French national) and has been holding same lad for 4 years
incommunicado from the world not allowing red cross visit in
contravention of Geneva convention

Presbyterians believe that God calls them and others to be peacemakers and to work for justice. Historically, the denomination has condemned violence on both sides, affirmed a two-state solution--Israel and Palestine--and asked the U.S. government to serve as an even-handed broker. Yet USA is bent on supporting Isreal on all issues at the expense of the Palestinians. Therefore Presbytarians stand out to balance out the uneven-handed USA broker.
The facts clearly indicts Israel as oppressor, Palestinians as victims--period. The prophet Isaiah knew that: He spoke out against the assigning of blame elsewhere. Isreal has been assigning blame on the Palestinians for the problems that cause the Isreal Palestinians conflict. Presbyterian family really have been listening to each other--carefully--at this gathering and beyond. However Isreal have been keep on increasing the inhuman torturing of the Palestinians. Isaiah calls us all to be repairers of the breach. If Isreal follow Isaiah, there would not be any independent isreal and the Gaza problem. What's needed is not provocative language, but neither the human right violating restrictions imposed BY Isreal on the Palestinians

mischipotles, you're right the blotches of palestinian territories in this map do appear like they could be ghettos

http://www.presbyteriandivestment.org/media/palestine.jpg

This report is a call to action in the face of the senseless "accept our actions because we have a few more Christians (unequal rights) while we slaughter thousands of Palestinians" logic...

The Holocaust narrative allows Yad Vashem, the finest Holocaust museum in the world, to repeat the mantra of “Never Forget” while it sits on Arab lands stolen from Ein Karem and overlooking the unmarked graves of Palestinians massacred by Jewish terrorists at Deir Yassin. It allows Elie Wiesel to boast of having worked for these same terrorists (as a journalist, not a fighter) while refusing to acknowledge, let alone apologize for, the war crimes his employer committed. It makes Jews the ultimate victim no matter how they dispossess or dehumanize or ethnically cleanse indigenous Palestinian people.

The Holocaust story eliminates any comparison of Ketziot or Gaza to the concentration camps they indeed are. It memorializes the resistance of Jews in the ghettos of Europe while steadfastly denying any comparison with the resistance of Palestinians in Hebron and throughout the West Bank. It allows claims that this year’s Hanukah Massacre in Gaza, with a kill ratio of 100 to one, was a “proportionate response” to Palestinian resistance to unending occupation.
-Daniel McGowan

WOW, JUDGING BY ALL THESE COMMENTS, THERE CLEARLY IS NO GOD, NOR PEACE, NOR BROTHERLY LOVE; JUST A WHOLE LOT OF RELIGION SPEWING HATRED LIKE A RUPTURED OIL RIG.

I don't know what happened between the wars of 1967 and 1973, but the shift from seeing Israel politically correct to "Palestinians" politically correct, let alone the shift in victimhood, started somewhere in that time frame. What has happened since then is an escalation of Israeli hatred. Make no mistake about it, though. It is anti-Semitism, fanned by excellent propaganda from the Arab states, especially Egypt; a fairly recent TV series that never mentioned Israel was a presentation of every European anti-Semitic libel ever invented; it was a visual presentation of the medieval blood libels and the infamous, incorrect "Protocols of the Edlers of Zion", a czarist-era Russian concoction. The show was intended to ultimately morph into anti-Israel hatred, which it did, and - this is the important part - make it okay in Europe to hate Jews under the rubric of hating Israelis/loving Palestinians. That the same bigots aren't getting so upset over Darfur or the Rape of Tibet or still existing worldwide slavery is beside the point: they want to hate Jews. I'm afraid that this seems to include the Presbyterian leadership. And, no the people in Gaza are not hurting for food; they are hurting for good leadership which has lead them astray for all these years: it's easier to focus on hate rather than on building a viable society. It is also distracting from leaders who put billions of international aide money away for personal fortunes in Swiss banks or buy apartments for their wives in Paris. Israel is an incredibly diverse (Jews, Muslims [Sunni and Shia], Druze, Christians [Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants, Copts], Buddhists) country that has built a vibrant society; compare that to the totalitarian, single religion states like Saudi Arabia. "Palestinians" could have also had a vibrant society had they had the leaders with a desire to lead them there.

Historically, churches in America have been at the forefront of fighting injustices. From pre-Civil War abolitionist movements in New England to the civil rights movements in the 60s, this one is only the latest injustice that is beginning to stir the religious community. If, as the author seems to believe, the US should be an "even-handed power broker" in arriving at a two state solution, then it must be asked "Where are the billions in yearly aid to the Palestinians, their F-16s, white phosphorus bombs, gunships and bulldozers for leveling illegal settlements and more importantly, the elected officials unafraid to take up their case here at home?

The Pope cleared the Jews of deicide charge.

How about the Presbyterians following suit.

This map entitled palestinian loss of land basically tells the whole story about settlement in palestinian land.

http://www.presbyteriandivestment.org/media/palestine.jpg

This map seems to strike home the point that Israelis don't want to recognize the palestinian state's right to exist and just want to settle the land for themselves and "wipe palestine off the map" which is literally being done here.

Rev. Dr. Katharine Henderson is a long list of Presbyterian leaders who are out of touch with what the individual churches even care about.

She should be concerned about growing the church and dealing with the death-spiral of mainstream denominations. Instead, she's worried about Israel. Something almost no Presbyterians care about either way.

I would like her to address the issues of womens rights in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and even Iraq. That might actually mean something.

I would like to see a law put into place which is already unofficially in place in US and Europe: Anyone critical of Israel should be humiliated, forced out of their jobs and branded anti-semite, because of ocurse Israel can never do any wrong as saying so would negate our basis for providing Israel with unconditional support. And of course we can never be wrong.

Not to sound too terribly intemperate but this particular bunch of Presbyterians aren't even really Christians anymore.

End of Story

First of all, the comment attributed to Sharon is a hoax perpetrated by an Arab journalist--do some research, don't just parrot crap from some anti-Jewish website.

Secondly, it's not Israel doing the ethnic cleansing. Israel has all nationalities and creeds living there--while the Muslims demand a Jew-free state. And it's the Muslims who are driving out the Christians through murder and mayhem.

In Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, there are 11 million people: 6 million Jews and 5 million Muslims. You have had a situation in which 6 million Jews rule over 5 million Muslims. It is has been going on for 50 years. Things are only going to get worse as the Muslim population grows to equal or exceed the Jewish population.

No matter how just the reasons for the creation of this development, a situation in which 6 million of one ethnic group rule over 5 million of another ethnic group is not democratic. It is not just. It is not even sustainable.

At some point in time many Israelis started to dream of a "Greater Israel," which would include all of Jerusalem and many historic parts of Judea and Samaria, such as Hebron. Most of the people in power in Israel still hold to this dream.

Israel needs to let go of that dream. It is rapidly turning into a nightmare.

One must not forget Ariel Sharron's retort to Peres in the Knesset on 3rd October 2001. Peres had expressed a concern about America's possible sensitivity regarding a specific action porposed by Sharron.
Sharron assured Peres that he need not concern himself about American reaction as "We, the Jewish people control America and they know it"

His statement was broadcast over the Kol Yisrael radio service in Israel.

Israel has shown its contepmt for American opinion in the past by murdering 34 American naval personnel in international waters: http://www.gtr5.com or see http://www.ussliberty.org/ Clearly, they were secure in the knowledge they could get away with the murder of American military personnel.

Then there was the Pollard spying on America for Israel incident as well as more recent incidents that readers do need to get reminders about.

The rest of the world is beginning to wonder when America is going to attempt to reclaim its sovereignty from Israel.

Too late

I would say it’s too late for the two state solution: Israel knows it, the Palestinians know it, Turkey—and the rest of the ME-- know it, and maybe even AIPAC (“the most powerful lobby in the US”, their words not mine) knows it. This is because the Israelis have basically expropriated all the water rights in Palestine, as well as continuously created new settlements, heming the Palestinians into uneconomic Bantustans, so the situation in the West Bank is hopeless. And we haven’t even got to Gaza yet.

Additionally, the numbers just don’t work. Gaza, at 1.6 million inhabitants, has an annual growth rate of 3.29%, the West Bank 2.13% (with 2.5 million people) Israel (with 5.5 million Jewish citizens) is growing at 1.63%. Within Israel itself are 2 million non-Jewish people, mostly Arab origin. So if we add up the non-Jewish, mostly Arab, inhabitants of Palestine (Israel plus the occupied territories) we get 6.19 million non-Jewish population verses 5.5 million Jewish. Jews are already outnumbered in the region. Add to this the differentials in the birth rate and the Arab majority in the region can only increase and the realisation of Jewish minority will become stronger. No wonder Jewish Israelis are applying for second passports! Poland and Germany are supposedly the top choices. These passports give the Israelis the right to live and/or work in any country in the EU, and given the bad numbers, many are considering it.

IMHO—and what do I know?—the best possible solution is along the South African model, a “rainbow nation” of Arab and European, with the former oppressors forgiven but not allowed any of their previous special privileges.

If the above is true, the good Presbyterians are irrelevant.

As public awareness grows on what really goes on in the ME, and how the US controlled news media presents only one side of the story, there will be blow back. This is an early manifestation. The cup runneth over.

This is very simple; Israel acts against US interests, spies on the US, and keeps knocking down existing Palestinian homes, when there is space available to build Israeli homes without knocking down ANYones home.
If they choose to act this way, they should do it without taking US taxpayer money and protection.
Simple.

Bottom line: Israel was attacked from the day it was founded, and dared to fight back. Peace could have come to the region decades ago, but the Arabs found their priority was killing Jews rather than becoming a civilized nation. Maybe the Presbyterian General Assembly should consider this; If the Arabs would put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel out down its weapons, there would be a lot of dead Jews. Or is that what the Presbyterians really want? Disgusting people.

I welcome the authors remarks and helping to expose the Presbyterian's report as the intellectual fraud that it is. Anyone who has read it knows it is so consitently wrong and biased that it can only be called anti semitic for its willfull denial of the facts. The report also lacks any balance becasuse it fails to mention, no less recognize, that hamas's firing of 9000 rockets into Israeli civilian areaa has anything to do with the situation. The result is that the Presbyterian hierarchy is exposed as a corrupt bunch a of anti smeitic liars who use G-d as their excuse to perpetuate hatred agains Jews.

And for interested parties who want the factual truth of the report, they should read should read the research done by the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting, CAMERA by going to the their website and looking for ... British Methodists Prepare to Throw Israel Under the Bus .. the article systematically exposes the reports lies and biases.

But the real issue that the report raises is illustrated by the vicious anti semtic remarks from posters like ztcb41 who runs down the familar pack of lies about gaza and Israel. Sorry to disappoint all you Israel haters but there is simply no shortage of food , medicine, shoes or other basic items in Gaza and everyone knows it. This is just propaganda spun by the world press that works for the 1.5 billion muslims world wide. The UN and Red Cross are in gaza everyday and while it is no picnic there is no humanitarian disaster of any kind. Liars like ztcb41 just seek to spread their anti semitc rants without regard for the truth or for the fact that hamas, hezbollah and other terrorist groups provoke Israel daily. Ask yourslef, after Israel offered to deliver the flotialla's good to gaza what was the point of the trip other than instigating a confrontation? Posters like ztcb41 may forget the rockets and suicide bombers, but we don't.

Israel learned a long time ago that world opinion means nothing. There are simply too many muslims to change the UN or the world press. We have lived with anti semitism for 5000 years and it is a way of life for too much of the world. So we defend oursleves without regard to world opinion because no matter what Israel does it will never be good enough for the haters, like ztcb41, who just want to see Israel disappear.

One minor problem on getting rid of Israel that more countries and groups like ztcb41 and the Presbyterians should consider. With 200 nukes armed and ready to go, if the Presbyterians really want world peace they ought to find a better way to help than by throwing gasoline on on a burning fire.

It is time for Israel and any supporters to stop always describing Israel as the victim. How long are the people of Palestine to wait, while Israel continues to take their land, for the world to decide the fate of Palestine. It should be the decision of the people of Palestine. Israel never paid for the land that was taken to form the state of Israel. That land was stolen. But the world never talks about that.

More Israeli propoganda in the Washington Post. Big surprise. I wonder when Fred Hiatt and his crew will begin to wonder if it isn't backfiring.

Ms. Henderson & Mr. Niebuhr where is your humanity? A brutal 43 year occupation of Palestinians with no end in sight. Israel's Operation Cast Lead which killed over 1,000 mostly innocent men, women and children who lived in the largest open air prison in the world. The Goldstone Report documented these war crimes.

Honestly I am outraged at your lack of humanity for the victims of Israeli aggression. Yes I call the Palestinians the victims and you would too if you asked yourself a few questions. Comparing Israelis and Palestinians: Who has all the power including the power of incarceration or life and death? Who has the most powerful weapons in the world and who plays with rudimentry rockets? Who has control of the daily life of millions of people? Who lives in the largest open air prison in the world and who could be killed at anytime by a missile from an unseen predator drone? Who has a dramatically higher standard of living? Who controls all the water? Who prohibits Jews from marrying Israeli Arabs/Palestinians in Israel? Who operates bypass roads that are for Jews only?

Again I ask where is your humanity?

The Presbyterians tend to be Middle America. Israel's supporters should be asking themselves what happens if you lose the support of Middle America? They had Presbyterian support before. Calling them Nazi and racist now is just too easy. Why weren't they Nazi and racist 20 years ago, 10 years ago, a couple of years ago?

Israel and Israelis are EVIL.

We should nuke it today.
Tomorrow we should hang all of our jew traitors.

"Presbyterians apparently have stopped being a christian chuech...
because every christian knows the relationship between Israel, Christ and the world...
and in the end days, this relationship is very important...

Posted by: DwightCollins | June 27, 2010 5:13 AM

You and your Hitler youth pope who calls protestants "wounded" never considered them as christians in the first place so what's your point?

Holding 1.5 Million people in bondage is Criminal at it's worse, denying them basic food, medicine, shoes, is INJUSTICE AT IT'S WORSE! Israel to this registered Voter/Vet USAF, "IS OUT OF CONTROL! The world knows it, Washington knows it, and the people who wrote this article know it!

I am disgusted with Israel as is the Majority of American's to what Israel has done in "GAZA/COMMITTED/WAR/CRIMES/FACT!

The article leaves out of the Goldstone report, it leaves out the 1400 dead Palinstinians Israel killed in GAZA, it leaves out the 9 Peace Activists Israel killed in International Waters, and it leaves out the "TRUTH!

..."Israel is OUT OF CONTROL/FACT, and the United Nations needs to do it's job and punish Israel, otherwise the world will no longer respect the United Nations, as it no longer respects Israel!

..."Nutanyahu has ruined you Israel, pretty much like "Blew it Bush/Republican/Party of NO has ruined America's economy and image around the world/fact.

According to the views of this author, we are not to speak out when we perceive unfairness and injustice. If that is true, then we should take out of the Bible the section where Jesus drives the money-lenders out of the Temple, right? Or should fairness and justice only apply to acts within religious buildings?

We all have our individual thoughts on the situation between Israel and Gaza. If the majority of the Presbyterians in this group come to this consensus, then that is their right and their privilege.

We cannot afford to stifle free speech and thought unless it is promoting violence. This decision does not promote violence but is an outward expression of the majority of this religious group.

Would you attempt to stifle the decision of another religious group if it were in favor of Israel's policies regarding Palestinians?

It is long past time that a Protestant organization took a stand on Israel's aggressive ethnic cleansing of the Muslim and Christian Semites in the Holy Land. Because the major American media dare not report the truth about Israel's actions and always repeat Israel's propaganda as fact, we have a situation where the Israeli commandos who illegally captured neutral vessels on the high seas and executed and wounded so many of the passengers and crew are now believed by Americans to be the VICTIMS rather than pirates and killers.

The same applies to Israel's illegal embargo of Gaza which amounts to group punishment of innocents which is an additional war crime. A distinguished Jewish International Jurist, Sir Richard Goldstone of South Africa, investigated Israel's actions during its invasion of Gaza and found that Israel was guilty of gross war crimes. Of course, Israel did not cooperate with the investigation. So what does our U.S. Congress do? It passes a resolution condemning Goldstone, the UN, and his report of war crimes by both sides. The Congress, as always where Israel is concerned, sides with the criminals rather than the victims then lavishes more billions of taxpayers' borrowed dollars on one of the richest countries in the world. The Congress continued to do that even after Israel deliberately attacked an American Navy ship, USS LIBERTY, and killed or wounded over two hundred of my fellow Navy men in 1967.

The fact that every American Christian church does not stand up and demand a halt to the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Christians and Muslims should be a blot on their conscience. Israeli PM Netanyahu lamented that Israel did not put all the Palestinians on trucks, no trains available, and ship them out of Israel and Palestine while the world was watching the Tinniman Square rebellions in China. His foreign minister is pushing "resettlement" even today, which should sound familiar to those who remember WWII. As things now stand, when that happens our government will provide the transport vehicles, sandwiches and coffee for the soldiers.

Bless you PCA. The rest who remain silent should pray for forgiveness.

"...the report strays from this path to peace-building and instead deals in neatly-assigned roles--Israel as oppressor, Palestinians as victims--period. That may briefly feel good, but righteous simplicity never fits complicated, nuanced circumstances."

Der Fuhrer couldn't have said it better about the Reich's need for Lebensraum. You see, it is very complicated and nuanced. Aryans have a historical claim to the East. Poland was empty before the Reich arrived. Wotan promised the Land of the East to the Aryans. The Jews and Slavs who are there only came to work for the Aryans. Jewish and Slavic terrorism force the Reich to defend itself. Think of how much the Aryans suffered from Jewish and Slavic attacks! Putting them in the Warsaw Ghetto is for their own protection. The Reich and America share values. The Reich is an ally of America against the Bolsheviks. Not all Jews and Slavs are Bolsheviks, but all Bolsheviks are Jews and Slavs.

So let's recognize all the nuances of history, not just of the Middle East.

After 1700 years of attacking Jews isn't it time for Christians to cease and desist?

Please don't say Presbyterians - this is blatantly wrong- this is a sect called the PC (USA) versus the PCA (Prebyterian Church of America)which DOES NOT subscribe to this hateful view.

"Presbyterians apparently have stopped being a christian chuech...
because every christian knows the relationship between Israel, Christ and the world...
and in the end days, this relationship is very important...

Posted by: DwightCollins | June 27, 2010 5:13 AM"

=============

Dwight the Prophet. They haven't voted yet.

All the end of days you've missed so far.

http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm

You seem to have forgotten Matthew 27.

How dare the "anti-Semetic" Presbyterians say anything critical of Israel? Racists all! Congress should pass a law that no American colonist shall ever disparage Israel again. I'm sure enough New York money can be quickly raised to pay off the old farts in Washington to suspend the First Amendment on behalf of these poor perpetual victims.

Articles that use the words Peace and Israel together unforunately have been dismissed by readers for years. Israel has long been a regular part of the world community to the average person. Sadly they set themselves completely backwards in the eyes of the world. Even with the limited images seen during their so called recent war, as a country that already had their foot on a peoples throat, they released the human emotion of hate mixed with total power and ready hurt themselves. The Israeli people will vote the extremist out of power if they can. Heck people around the world are basically the same-nationalistic, moderate and tolerant. There are few things that can allow the Palestinians to have what all must have-equality. Obviously it must be done non-violently and without the backing of caucasian governments. I've been known it can't be blamed on America or Europe anymore, that's hopelessness for the Arab. This won't happen, but the Arabs, Africans and South Americans have the power just by stopping oil to America and Europe and thats who will send their own armies if necessary to humble the invincible regional power ISRAEL. Then the world can move forward and the oil countries can feel proud of their achievement for all. Just wishful thinking.

How fascinating that milk-toast Presbyterians who have been silent through decades of American war quagmires like Viet Nam, Iraq and Afghanistan would now take on Israel and its inseparable American Jews.

With all the issues out there like homophobia, corruption, corporate lobbyists buying Washington, a failed drug war and right-wing demonization of Mexicans, it is very convenient of Presbyterians to conveniently cherry-pick their moral outrage just as their "Christian" Huckabee cousins cherry-pick their scriptures.

What a concatenation of hatred, bigotry and ignorance is displayed here. For example the demonization of the blue haired old people who are in committee. Who is to say that they are all ignorant fossils imposing their will upon their adherents? I find that most comments on this page perpetuate the hatred that roils among people with no end in sight.

Hmm. Was Christ for the bombing of schools by white phosphorous, humiliation of people, check points, the expulsion of people from their houses, destruction of fields… I am curious what all those Christians who support Israel would answer? Is the bible a book of ethnic cleansing? If the Jews have the right over the holy land then the expulsion of Christian Arabs is just, isn’t it?

"Presbyterians apparently have stopped being a christian chuech...
because every christian knows the relationship between Israel, Christ and the world...
and in the end days, this relationship is very important...

Posted by: DwightCollins | June 27, 2010 5:13 AM"
===============================

And it is this unfortunate belief in fairy tales that has led man to commit murder against man. For centuries, religion has been calling for the "end days", and for centuries, those end days have yet to come. It won't.

As long as you continue to believe that one race is favored by your fictitious God (which it isn't), and that particular race is allowed to forcibly take land and commit genocide against Palestinians, then man will continue to kill man through violence and bloodshed. It will be a never-ending cycle so long as this particular race is given a blank cheque for killing. The double-standards are glaring, no? They evict people from homes and take land, but that's not considered "pushing them out into the sea", and the Palestinians fight back and they're called terrorists?

You all have blood on your hands. Washing them will not be an easy task. Good luck.

Presbyterians apparently have stopped being a christian chuech...
because every christian knows the relationship between Israel, Christ and the world...
and in the end days, this relationship is very important...

Since the Apartheid treatment of American Indians is now documented in a UN report (see link below), I'm assuming that the Presbyterians will now be divesting from the United States of America.

The United States of America genocided 180,000,000 Native Americans, and continues to steal their land to this day. It has confined the indigenous people to "reservations" where the average life expectancy is fifty-eight. It has failed to honor its treaty obligations, and, according to the United Nations, has made of the Native Americans, one of the poorest of the developing nations.

http://www.atlanticfreepress.com/content/view/3258/81/
-------------------------------------
I notice your report also demands divestment from all companies currently doing business with the American military so it should not take much to go that extra step and simply divest from all American businesses.
--------------------------------------
YOU did NOT, however, vote to stop your conversion activities vis a vis Jews, which I tell you, is among those things that makes your church distasteful to many.
Something to consider....
--------------------------------------
Your report states that "Israel has no right to exist," that it was an erroneous attempt to solve the "Jewish problem"....

NOW, let me ask you: How do we solve the Presbyterian problem?

IN a few hours, another hundred people will have read your report. Maybe, they will be able to answer the question.

By attempting to chastise the nation of Israel by the Presbyterians and squeezing them financially, I am not sorry to say that the Presbyterians are the ones who will have to endure a little uncomfortable squeezing from the Almighty Himself. As God says in His Word: I will bless those who bless thee and curse those who curse thee... (referring to Israel). The land of Israel belongs to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob not to the Arabs.

This quote from the report is fairly objective as well. I suggest those on this blog read it before criticizing it.

"Thomas R. Stauffer, who has taught the
economics of energy and the Middle East at Harvard and Georgetown University’s School of
Foreign Service, published a report that estimates the cost to U. S. tax payers to be close to $3
trillion measured in 2002 dollars.3 Stauffer claims that approximately 60 percent (which amounts to
$1.7 trillion) resulted from the U.S. defense of Israel since 1973."

http://www.pcusa.org/middleeastpeace/pdf/middleeastpeace-fullreport.pdf

The behavior of some elements in the Presbyterian Church is the sort of thing many find repugnant.

However, if the Presbyterian Church is to act like in the manner of a hostile nation, it should expect to be treated like one. In any event, the Presbyterian report-writers have probably already decided that Presbyterians do not need to make trips to Israel, that Presbyterian scholars do not need to do research there, etc.

Palestinian Christians are not Presbyterians and even if they were, Israel would continue to let in those fleeing oppression.

As for me, and the other three million Jews in exile from ME countries, we'd be interested in knowing when the PResbyterians plan to bring youth together from Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Morocco, etc., countries which are now Judenrein.

Tell us when you plan to resolve the crisis so that we Js can go home.

In the meantime, word to report-writers: What goes around comes around. There are more than six million Jews living in America, alone.

If by describing this report as "scaldingly critical of israel" the authors of this article mean that this report objectively and accurately represents the facts then they are correct. Take this quote from the presbyterian report for example.

"One of the growing concerns of the occupation is the dramatic increase of settlements that
began after the 1967 war. One of the hopes of the Oslo Interim agreements was that settlement
growth would cease; however, the opposite has occurred, resulting in a current population of the
West Bank settlements at 285,000 and 198,700 settlers in East Jerusalem.100 The continued
growth of the number of settlements and settlers is perceived by many as an attempt by Israel to
prevent the establishment of an economically viable Palestinian state."

" But peacemaking does not mean pointing fingers. The prophet Isaiah knew that: He spoke out against the assigning of blame elsewhere. "

Really, please, this sounds incredibly naive. So aggressors in history or the contemporary era should not be castigated or blamed for treating others unfairly.

Don't most people in Israel blame the Palestinians for the failure to have lasting peace?

Don't most Palestinians blame Israelis for the failure to have lasting peace?

Who is right?

Some neo-cons are mad because the Obama administration is only ninety-five percent pro-Israel, unlike Bush II, who was one hundred percent.

It is interesting that the WaPo hasn't bothered to run an update on the Iranian flotilla that was supposed to crash Israel's blockade of Gaza this week. According to the Wall Street Journal, Israel informed the UN Security Council that if Iran went forward with the flotilla, Israel would consider it an act of war.

Iran immediately announced that it was stopping it plans for the flotilla.

Thank you for bringing the subject up.

For Israeli Jews, this is just another sign of business as usual with the Presbytarians. Many are good folk, but there is a hard core liberation-leftist-theology that reaks of "replacement lets hate the Jews" stuff. Since, by and large, the lay members are to a point apathetic or misinformed, the committed leftists can do largely as they please.

Please, show your bias and ignorance openly and freely if you wish. There is a Torah portion called Balak (remember Bilaam and the donkey?). Balak, who hated Israel got a portion in the Torah named after him because he openly hated Israel and wasn't shy about it. Most eenmies of Israel make excuses about why they hate: Jews are too rich , or Jews are communistic, Jews too cruel to poor Arabs and want to steal their land. That sort of stuff. Better to know that the Presbytarians are just like the Lutherans from 60 years ago in Germany. Then the good honest lay folk can find churches they a more attuned to.

The tilt in the USA governemnt policies and media is obviously pro-Israel, so why such a fuss when a little tilt to the other side is done?

We all know clearly that Israel keeps taking property from the Palestians and doing things like building houses for themselves on these peoples land.

There is a distaste for this sort of thing and the bully mentality that is perpetuated by military power.

I would think as a Christian one would have to at least question why this is happening?

The writers trivialize the militarism and brutality of the Israeli occupation.
I'm sorry but this statement reminds me of a mealy-mouthed letter a German bishop wrote to the Nazi authorities reporting concerns people were voicing about the fact that many people were being put into the Dachau concentration camp but no one ever came out. He stressed the fact that he himself had no such concerns. In a way the bishop had more guts than these folks, because he at least dared to bring up the subject.

Posted by: robertmann
-----------------------------
Don't be sorry, Herr Mann. If your Nazi father thought the letter mealy mouthed, then that was what your Nazi father thought.

Per my last post, please do let us know when the Presbyterians will be divesting from all those nations in the Middle East from which the three million Jews were exiled.

Let us know when you will be bringing youth from those nations together so that we Jews can go home.

Let the Israelis know if you want them to continue taking in refugee Palestinian Christians, although I doubt they'd be interested in your answer.

I know, Mr. Niebuhr, who Reinhold Niebuhr was. I wonder what he would say to this.

I am Mizrahi, Iranian, specifically, like the majority of Jews in Israel.

You know, of course, that what goes round comes round. You might want to mention that at your meeting. Of course, Presbyterians do not have to go to Israel, do not have to do research there. Of course.

The mood, you may have noticed, is not good in Israel now. Religion and politics do not mix.

Your report-writers should have thought twice about that. And why you have sought to give this more publicity than it already has, I do not know. I would consider, though, per my last post, that boycotts can begin--unconsciously, as it were.

Even the report admits the Presbyterians are losing more members in the US than in Israel. Young people in the US are dumping the blue haired old folks who gather in Minneapolis to decide how people in the Middle East should live, and are flocking to churches that have the Bible as a foundation, not a liberal foreign policy ideology.

Given the behavior and policies of the Government of Israel towards the Palestinians, Israel should indeed be rebuked and the our government should squeeze the Jewish state financially as we did with South Africa when its government was pursuing the policy of Apartheid.

Surely peace in the Middle East can be found in a bunch of old fuddy duddies meeting in Minneapolis.

For some reason their report does not mention gays being executed in Gaza, young people blown up in buses and pizza restaurants by suicide bombers, thousands of missals being fired randomly into towns. I guess they just missed those 2 million news reports from the last 50 years.

Continued

The Christian business threatened to organize boycotts of its own. The Jews threatened to expand, calling in Hindu, Christian, Muslim, B'hai, Pagan, and atheist friends.

Some of us Js thought the whole thing hilarious, but I don't know that the view was widely shared.

In the end, it was stopped by the owner of the Christian business, who fired the anti-Jewish racist administrators, and the boycott ended.
---------------------------
As for you Presbyterian folk, I don't know what to say. Will those who are advocating the boycott also boycott those nations that expelled three million of us? Who stole our property? Who killed us?

Will they boycott Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, where a young rabbi was recently murdered, ending a three-thousand-year-old civilization? Will it boycott Egypt? Morocco?

We Js would like to go home. I want my daughter to see Shiraz.

The writers trivialize the militarism and brutality of the Israeli occupation.
I'm sorry but this statement reminds me of a mealy-mouthed letter a German bishop wrote to the Nazi authorities reporting concerns people were voicing about the fact that many people were being put into the Dachau concentration camp but no one ever came out. He stressed the fact that he himself had no such concerns. In a way the bishop had more guts than these folks, because he at least dared to bring up the subject.

Quite a number of years ago, an undeclared Jewish boycott against a Christian business got underway.

Not only was it unannounced, but Jews had no idea it was underway. For most, it started as it had with me. After numerous appeals which got me nowhere, I simply stopped doing business with that establishment. It wasn't as if I wrote myself a note about it; in fact, I was hardly aware that I was no longer shopping there.

A few months later, a Jewish activist--bona fide, not a name you see in the newspapers--asked is whether Jews thought a boycott of this Christian establishment was in order. This received a very amused response, in which many had said they'd stopped doing business there a long time ago. And so, the boycott officially began.

And so it went. It wasn't much publicized among Jews, or anyone else, but it so happened that a number of Hindus and Christians of another denomination had somehow gotten wind of the boycott and joined in.

The Christian business continued to offend, but also expressed anger that it was losing money, etc.

What to do?

The only reason the Christian population is decreasing in West Bank etc. is due to the Muslims treatment of Christians not because of Israel. The Christian population is growing in Israel the only place this is happening in the Middle East.

Thank you for the human way you addressed this issue. I am surprised and pleased at your response. I hope that your broader perspective prevails in order not to alienate Presbyterians and Jews.