greyhound1

You wrote, "You are presuming to know God completely when you deny that any other faith is valid"

What I am saying is that it does not even matter if one believes in God or not because God is not the egomaniac that some think God to be.

And then, "and insist that your own is the only 'truth'."

What I am saying is that God is God and when Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life...", He was not presuming but speaking quite bluntly and truthfully.

You then wrote, "Or, to continue with the idea of presumption, do you presume that God revealed himself truly to *you*, but not to anyone else?"

It doesn't matter one way or the other to me if and how God may have revealed Himself to anyone else, I would say that that is God's Job, not mine. My "job" is to at least try to do what God chose me to do.

You then wrote, "The presumption, then, lies in the belief that you understood that revelation so thoroughly as to exclude the possibility of other - equally correct - interpretations."

Seems as if you "presume" that God can not reveal to someone what God wishes to reveal to someone.

You then wrote, "Understanding that you don't completely understand God (as you said) is an excellent first step, but you need to take it further."

I do not need to "completely understand God" but I do know that God Is a Being of Pure Love as in Love is not an attribute of God but is God's Very Being, I was chosen to be a "messenger" not to be God.

As I have said, God chose me to be a messenger, I did not chose to be a messenger but I have said Yes.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom which will come at the dawning of the seventh day.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Martha, I am one who understands what you are saying, and I too have long craved for such a conversation. Acknowledging that God is Unknowable in the human sense, but All-Loving/Knowable in the Spirit sense, is a form of religion in itself, though it is more grassroots and less organized right now.

There are pockets: A Course in Miracles, etc. I thought no church existed which would let me experience God without trying to teach me stuff that people made up about Him/Her/It. I am so fortunate to have found the community I need, but I heartily acknowledge that EVERYONE'S SPIRITUAL NEEDS ARE DIFFERENT and THERE IS NO ONE-CHURCH-FITS-ALL.

Some experience God better in a fear-based, God-is-vengeful environment. Some need rules to experience even an all-loving God, or at least think they do (which in their perspective is not mutually exclusive). For me.... God is so loving that forgiveness isn't even required. Forgiveness is a gift I give myself.

jkrovari: HIGH FIVE!

Mr. Baum,

You are presuming to know God completely when you deny that any other faith is valid, and insist that your own is the only 'truth'. Think of something as simple as a cloud: sure, you see a dinosaur, but I see a car. With something as personal, ephemeral and Great as the Whatever, can't you see that it must be even more open to interpretation? Perhaps God revealed (Him)self to you as a Trinity, as you believe; someone else given the same revelation may have understood it entirely differently. Or, to continue with the idea of presumption, do you presume that God revealed himself truly to *you*, but not to anyone else? The presumption, then, lies in the belief that you understood that revelation so thoroughly as to exclude the possibility of other - equally correct - interpretations. Understanding that you don't completely understand God (as you said) is an excellent first step, but you need to take it further.

greyhound1

You wrote, "I've long been a proponent of the idea that the great Whatever (to borrow the phrase) is, in toto, unknowable. If such an overarching spirit exists, how can humans presume to completely understand such a thing?"

One can "know" that God Is, simply because God has revealed Himself to someone but this is not synonymous with "completely understanding God".

I have met God and God Is a Trinity and for that matter I have also met satan but when I say that I "know" that God Is and Is a Trinity, it is other people who are assuming (presuming) that I "completely understand" God, so who is the one "presuming"?

By the way, when I referred to God above as "Himself", I was merely using a masculine pronoun because it is handy, God is neither a He, a She nor an It, even tho God-Incarnate was a Male, but Is a Being of Pure Love.

Seems to me that it is "presumptuous" of people to believe that God could not, in a very Personal Way, reveal Himself to us created beings.

As I have said before and I repeat: There is no way that I could conceive that Love is God's Very Being, as opposed to love being an attribute of God, but It Is So.

There is an interesting statement in the bible attributed to God: "My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts".

Many, if not most, people want to put God in a "box" and this includes both those that believe in God and those that do not believe in God.

I did not ask to be a messenger, I was chosen and I can say with complete conviction that plenty of the garbage spewed out "supposedly" in God's Name is just that "pure, vile garbage".

Those that know nothing about God except for God's Name really should not speak as if they do but one day it will come to light that they chose themself and were not chosen by God.

God's Plan is ultimately for all of humanity and all of creation but this most definitely does not mean that we are not responsible for our use of our free will.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I've long been a proponent of the idea that the great Whatever (to borrow the phrase) is, in toto, unknowable. If such an overarching spirit exists, how can humans presume to completely understand such a thing?

Before I continue, I'll have to explain that I have only the haziest faith in the great Whatever, and most often describe myself as an agnostic or even an atheist. That being said, the religion that I find most closely resembles my faith - to my own surprise - is Wicca. I'm certainly not a practicing Witch, but their philosophy greatly appeals to me: every god, past, present and future, is a reflection and understanding of one *aspect* of the great Whatever. Thus every god just as valid as any other, from Hephaestus to Brigid to Thor to Kokopelli to Jesus. This concept is unique in that it allows for both a very broad and nuanced perception, *as well as* a very personal perception - not to mention that it teaches tolerance for all religions, which is exceedingly rare. What a beautiful - and versatile - basis for faith!

Martha,

I'm totally impressed by the conversation you've gotten started.

One question I would raise is whether religion may simply be a necessary thing whenever people covenant together to explore and exercise their faith in a difference-making and life-enhancing way, sort of like skin is to a living organism, not the life itself, but a defining boundary between those who make up a particular "body" or community of faith and those who by choice espouse no such faith. But skin is something that should be seen as itself a living and flexible thing, not like a formidable concrete barrier.

So I see personal "faith" as you define it being vital for the healthy spiritual life of an individual believer, but if we want to form, as I do, communities of compassion who look after each other's needs and reach out to the needs of others, we will of necessity have to define who we are and what our common vision and values statements are. That effort can of course become a rigid and limiting thing or it might also be an evolving consensus of a group that's constantly in a growth mode.

In summary, to me there are faith communities that represent the kind of "bad religion" that limits life, creativity and growth, and those that are examples of a "better religion" that inspires, focuses and increases the amount of love and compassion so lacking in a warring and suffering world. In any case, good religion, as I idealize it in my own imperfect Anabaptist/Christian tradition, never imposes itself on anyone, never inflicts harm on anyone and never seeks to dominate or coerce anyone.

To get back on track: MW’s directed me us to her blog and her writing thereon where she differentiated between ‘religion’ (which she spurns) and ‘faith’ (which she embraces.

Thank you, Martha W. for your reply. I will quote from your writing on faith vs. religion. Beginning with your definition of God as Mystery you go on to say:

I see religion and faith functioning as two different ways to acknowledge God’s presence. Religion (or religious practice, in the case of atheism and agnosticism) is whatever we do to worship, to deny, or to dither around about, the Almighty. It involves us humans subscribing to beliefs and explanations about the nature, existence (or inexistence), family, history etc, of the great Whatever—or however we wish to term the Mystery present in our world and in our lives. And, in the case of organized religion, it provides ritualized ways to approach that Mystery….

Faith, on the other hand, assumes an acceptance of Mystery’s existence, an acceptance that God is. Faith is the direct, useful relationships a person develops with that Mystery.

It seems to me what you call ‘faith’ is somewhat similar to Buddhism, although that involves ritual. Your ‘faith’ is definitely a personalized religion, your relationship with what you call that Mystery or Whatever. It is not ‘faith’ as the religious know it which is trust in God.

"In my view, Religion...all religions, are businesses, first and foremost, primarily for the economic benefit of the priests, elders, speakers, leaders, what have you! And faith is the glue and the club to keep the suckers(er, members) in line and contributing their time, money, and support."

Data to support this view but one must also include the supporters of the atheist agenda e.g. Susan Jacoby, Herb Silverman

Rev. Franklin Graham $800,000+/yr.

Rabbi Bradley Hirschfield $331,708/yr

Rev. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite,
$200,000/yr

Erica Brown $134,221/yr

Eboo Patel $100,000/yr.

Dr. Herb Silverman $100,000/yr. ?

Susan Jacoby ????

In my view, Religion...all religions, are businesses, first and foremost, primarily for the economic benefit of the priests, elders, speakers, leaders, what have you! And faith is the glue and the club to keep the suckers(er, members) in line and contributing their time, money, and support. If you should have the temerity to question THE leader or the foundational "faith" of the religion, then you lack faith and need to be "fixed"!

As to the basic premise of this article, the so-called eastern spiritual traditions like yoga have as a basic premise the very ideas espoused as of interest. By their definitions, the God of everything is beyond understanding by mere humans which are generally perceived as GOD or aspects of GOD that have been deliberately diminished from their God-ness for the sport or play of the God to enjoy and know herself... and that a good and natural "work" of a human is to pierce the veils of delusion and ignorance to realize their God-ness and become reunited with God, themselves. Further, by definition, language is incapable of revealing the God-ness of God or oneself.. that unknowable thing... and that talking or writing about ones experience or knowledge of God-ness is the both the highest form of human language and the least able to be understood by any but the realized humans of their God-ness... and that all else need the support and protections of these realized humans to even approach these teachings and experiences of their own God-ness. Kashmir Shaivism for example asserts that there is only the Supreme Consciousness and that everything is an aspect of this Supreme Consciousness as opposed to say Vedanta which believes fundamentally that everything we observe that could or has changed is a delusion of the mind, Maya; and only the unchanging element is the Supreme Consciousness. Most of the eastern traditions provide for the transmigration of the individual essence until it achieves the awareness/understanding that it is God when it merges with the supreme consciousness and becomes ????(nothing)

Now, it would seem pure folly to pursue some "faith" for the purpose of some eventually completion and these traditions essentially equate the human existence as a time of suffering; so if there is no benefit now, right now, to relieve suffering or increase happiness or contentment... then what is the point?? As my Guru said; Think and Grow Rich ... in the treasures and pleasures of this life, the next one will surely take care of itself! If we are real God, separated from the awareness of God, for the purpose of God's play... then play it to the max, be the best actor you can be on the stage of life, provide yourself, God, with the experiences of a human life, enjoy!!

Just a note for Dan4: I (Martha) write about what I mean by the terms "faith" and "religion" on the website at faithunboxed.org. Click on Question #1 at the bottom of the page, and then on "what Martha thinks." And please shoot me an e-mail if it doesn't make sense, or you'd like to talk further.

Factsmatter1 wrote:

"From where do you derive your moral compass?

Whose ego is it (really) who leads you to your determination?"
======================================
This really confuses me. What alternative is there to the fact that my "ego" leads me to my determination? I gather that "factsmatter1" has made the determination that he or she should swallow, whole-hog and without question, the teachings of whatever evangelical sect he/she adheres to. But, of course, "factsmatter1" made this determination somehow. I don't see how this determination is any more or less "egotistical" than the one the author has made, or that I might make. I really don't get the argument that an adherent of a particular religion is less "egotistical" than someone who hasn't declared adherence to such a sect, yet tries as hard as he or she can to act morally.

blaisep,

Like I said...

Well, HAH, have to disagree. Firstly many folks use 'religion' and 'faith' interchangeably, that is to say for many, religion and faith mean the same thing . Thus if someone like Martha W. tries to separate the two, admitting the first but barring the second, it's usually a good thing to try to ascertain just what she is talking about, and, along the way, what we mean when we use these terms.

Then we can get down to discussing. Without the definitions, we don't know what we're discussing, let alone disputing.

The thing I find most interesting about all the naysayers here is the obsession they have with establishing "definitions" before embarking on any consideration of what God may be. It's as if they're politicians preparing for negotiations with a hostile nation; all the rules of "engagement" must be in place before everyone sits down at the table.

Apparently, the idea of participating in philosophical discussion without a safety net is so manifestly threatening that a "glossary of terms" must be agreed upon before the principles even begin talking.

This is a sad state of affairs, but it does underscore all the good reasons for a forum like the one Ms. Woodroof has established at faithunboxed.org. Those who wish to consider ideas unhindered by absolutes should find a receptive audience there.

What does this site promise? Not much unless we first make some definitions of religion, before discussing Ms Woodruff’s demarcation between ‘faith’ (which she says she has) and ‘religion’ (which she says she hasn’t). Note that some sort of similar separation is pretty common today, as in pretty familiar comment: “I don’t go to church but I’m a spiritual person.”

First what religion over the ages really has meant:

• The experience of the Sacred (Marcia Eliade)
• Collection of statements about God, Providence, angels , immortality and other related subjects
• The socially established worship of the eternal reality

Her piece seems to admit the Sacred (although she will not describe it), make no statement about God, Providence etc. , and eschews any socially established worship.

So it seems she has ‘faith’, but faith about what ? Religion is about Being, the universe and our place in it. About God. Many reject its message.

Men despise religion; they hate it, and fear it is true. To remedy this, we must begin by showing that religion is not contrary to reason; but worthy of reverence and respect;

then we must make it lovable, to make good men wish it were true and ;finally, we must show that it is.

Worthy of reverence because it has perfect knowledge of man;

Lovable, because it promises the true good.

Pensees fr.187.

Next posting: faith.

sure, ccnl1, why not? I'll even buy you a first class ticket.

"order NASA to make a huge spaceship so his Mormons can "hie to Kolob" where they think God lives and take all of Palin's intolerant evangelicals and all of Donohue's sniveling right-wing Catholic apologists for ther pervert priests with them."

And let us not forget the following for said ride: pedophiliac priests of any religion, rabbis, evangelicals, boy scout leaders, married men/women), adulterers (Clinton, Woods), those guilty of obstruction of justice (Clinton, Cardinal Law) and the bones of murderers such as "Kings" David and Henry VIII.

How arrogant of the Huckabees to call themselves "people of faith" while implying other have none. I have faith that one day Elder Romney will become President, order NASA to make a huge spaceship so his Mormons can "hie to Kolob" where they think God lives and take all of Palin's intolerant evangelicals and all of Donohue's sniveling right-wing Catholic apologists for ther pervert priests with them.

"I respect your choice to remain with rites prayer and religion, but please respect those of us who choose to do without those things."

POSTED BY: PJS1965

___________________________________

People have a right in this country to believe anything they like but claiming that you have faith in a spiritual reality that demands nothing in the form of regular action on your part is not a spiritual belief worth anything. It is lazy and is a demonstration of faith in your own intellect rather than a transcendent reality.

Posted by: edbyronadams | May 3, 2010 10:30 AM
========
Well, I will leave you with your strenuous exercises of spiritual belief if that's what suits you. Clearly with your judgemental attitude further discussion is impossible. Good day.

Martha,
How do have you the experience of God yet claim no wisdom of God?
One never needs needs to darken the door s of a church to experience God, but once experienced - doesn't that define a level of wisdom of the devine?

Strange when you think about it. 40 years of Cold War and the Soviets and the US never blew each other up. Why?
Was it the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction or something deeper- something akin to faith? What stopped us from pulling the trigger first? I believe that it was a faith in the humanity of our enemy. That perhaps they had faith in us as well. Faith to believe that our misslemen were as competent as the crews in the Soviet ICBM Silos and submarines.
Faith is a strange thing. It keeps us alive when we are faced with oblivion.

Hmmm....looks like that request for civility met with a quick death.

jprfrog, thanks for your post - your atiesm sounds a lot like my Christian bleief! I also have a couple of grand daughters (one who has learned to share her colds with me, if little else so far!). I think part of the problem people have, on this blog, with Christianity, has to do with some of the expressions of it we see here and elsewhere, that are so often narrow, judgmental, and express the worst of human expresssions of "religion."

Many Christians do not recognize that, even withing their own "religion" there are infinite combinations and variations of dogma (particular beliefs), most of which, at some time, have found a place of acceptance in the church. Even within Christian scripture, there is great variation and development of thought (of course, some "innerantists" would deny this). For instance, the theology of the Gospels, including even the most "developed" Christology of John, do not go as far as the third century Creeds in declaring that Jesus is God. John's declaration that "I and the Father are one," only describes a unity of purpose, not of person. The other Gospel writers would not agree with the Creeds either. And, in those sayings that can be attributed to Jesus, he nowhere claims to be God. The idea would have been anethema to him, as to any Jew. While the church, more under the influence of Greek philosophy than Hebrew thought, finally decided that this was a tenant of faith, until then many Christians had held otherwise. It was not until the third century that other beliefs were declared heretical.

All this is not to say that one side is right and the other wrong. It is just to acknowledge the variety that exists even with the Christian belief system - which may even incude those who, like many of the first believers, do not think that Jesus is God.

I'd argue a bit with the premise of the author, as "faith vs. religion." Being aware of what these terms mean, rather than giving them indeterminate meanings, can be helpful. While "faith" is sometimes equated with a particular belief system, and "religion" is often seen as a system composed of these beliefs, I would argue against this understanding. "Religion" should be more commonly understood as that human desire to connect with something beyond ones self - to ask the larger questions of life concerning its meaning and purpose. In this way, as many have pointed out, people are "incurably religous;" or as Luther said, "everyone has a god," that is, everyone has something we look to to give life meaning and purpose. The giving of ourselves to any particular "god" is the act of faith, another word for which is "trust."

What the author of this article is talking about, when she says that she does not want it to be about "religion," is, more accurately, "doctrine," those sets of beliefs that define a particular conception of faith.

The reason to be clear about all of this is that, oftentimes, people talk about being against religion, when it is very clear that they hold rather strong religous beliefs themselves. Even the author reveals some of hers - that the "Whatever" can not be known, but that people are somehow in a partnership with this great "Whatever." If we are in a partnership with "Whatever," perhaps we can assume that it is, in some sense, "personal," that is, intellegent, as opposed to a non-personal force (fate?), benign, and has some desire to be a partner with us? Already there is a belief system expressed!

Usually, the desire to exclude "religion" has to do with certain expressions of religous belief, and the kind of arrogance assumed by some who hold those beliefs, that those who do not hold similar ideas are simply wrong. We see a lot of that arrogance in the blogs on these pages, even among those who purport to be of the same religious belief system (not simply Christians, but also some of the agnostics and athiests who blog here).

It would be great to have religious/faith discussions without the opprobrium of, for example "spidermean." But faith cannot really be discussed without the content of faith, just as the act of falling cannot be easily be discussed apart from the theory of gravity.

"I respect your choice to remain with rites prayer and religion, but please respect those of us who choose to do without those things."

POSTED BY: PJS1965

___________________________________

People have a right in this country to believe anything they like but claiming that you have faith in a spiritual reality that demands nothing in the form of regular action on your part is not a spiritual belief worth anything. It is lazy and is a demonstration of faith in your own intellect rather than a transcendent reality.

Martha,
As you wish to separate faith from the rituals of religion you fail to ask the most basic question - Does god even exist? You have made a presupposition that god exists with no evidence and that we all just misunderstand him/her/it through the various ritualistic religions as opposed to just experiencing god and believe through faith. As a Pastafarian, all I have to say to this is... Whatever!

"The first problem is that faith and religion are synonyms..."

No, mikepost1, they're not. Not even close.

Faith is the internal connection you have with whatever exists as your "god." Religion is an external construct designed to direct and manage your faith to bring it -- and your corresponding behavior -- in line with the particular religion's dogma.

This discussion just begs for mention of the famous Aquinas quote: everything I have written is straw. He speaks it to a confrere just months before his death. And whether it references all his work or simply the piece he was working on at the time, his words are rich in wisdom. In that spirit, drbill is right and so is Martha, it seems to me. For me, Martha and others provide a very strong caution: dogma is dangerous. On the other hand, as drbill would have it, a God who is entirely unknowable and unreachable is also without value in our lives. So the ideal human posture should be to treat all dogma as occasionally useful but only modestly so and all statements smacking of absolute deism ("it's out there but darned if I can say anything sensible about it") as being of very little value, ultimately. The trick is to live in the tension between the two extremes - the place where the Almighty is love and hope and creativity and justice. And then to listen for that "still, small voice" for more wisdom and insight. And while so doing, it seems that we should speak of God with gentle confidence. Aquinas, at the end of his life of dedicated scholarship, seems to have come to a conclusion something like this.

It is simply a recycling universe, big banging and expanding and gib gnignab and shrinking forever!!

Next topic!!!!!

Being a reneged christian minister who found and am partnering with God way outside all religion, which I blog about, I see this is just another useless round-robin panel to keep people from actually knowing God. "Gee I like God but I don't know who he is &c."
Time wasted.

I have to agree with DrBill1 here:

"It strikes me as absurd to say that if God exists, he MUST be COMPLETELY incomprehensible. It seems to me that an omnipotent God must be quite capable of creating beings that he can communicate to."

I can't believe it took so long for someone to state the obvious, thanks drbill1. If God created the universe and created us, why would He not try to communicate with us? If He wanted no interaction with His creation, why even create it? Purely for entertainment?

I have tried atheism and have switched over to religion. Both are imperfect, but both offer far less problems than this "middle" way. I am of the conviction that either God exists and interacts with His creation (and I firmly believe this, now) or does not exist and creation is a fluke (I used to believe this). It would not make any sense for to have a God that exists and created the universe and not interact with it.

Sir/Madam, let's all be frank and honest. Make it simple ! Admit that all the violence, hate, and bloodshed in today's world is because of Religion and so much for Religion ! The unknown prophet ' Galzora ' says " Only the stupid and weak seek God thru' Religion , the wise and strong thru' LOVE, and the Enlightened one , thru NOTHINGNESS ". Seeking God is nothing but to seek eternal peace within, while you live and NOT WHEN YOU ARE DEAD !! God is a creation of Man, only to put a permanent fear into human beings,so that Man can control societies through priests, mullahs, elders, etc. They say ' God spoke to Man when he was alone in the Mountains ...', it is nothing but hearing or listening to his own conscience ALOUD, when in deep meditation [ basically for self-improvement ]. As a child, your mother/father slapped you, when you broke your neighbour's window pane. This very act of slapping is what we could call GOD, she/he only put you on the right path to a good peaceful and successful Future !! But a child is immature to understand this. We need to grow on this ' slap ' to be able to take us on the Right Path. Why do we live a such complicated LIFE, whether we discuss God or not?? Make life very simple, do what is Right always and never harm others. What is GOD if Man cannot love another Man ?

I believe that God has revealed Himself to us and wants us to live in a restored relationship with Him. If you decide who god is, is not your god a product of your imagination?

Posted by: plumberboy | May 2, 2010 9:58 PM
*******************************************

You have merely let somebody else tell you who your god is and gone along with that. Personally, I think searching for one's own image of the Divine is more honest and more an act of real faith.

Lack of absolute knowledge - especially knowledge of the origins of existence - is part of what it means to be human. We know that there are things we cannot know. But we can and do experience some kind of contact with the Divine.

Throughout history, humans have had these contacts and expressed them in different ways. By having faith without religion, a person tries to stay true to that contact and not lose it in the dead institutions that religions always become.

Yonkers, New York
03 May 2010

Martha Woodruff carelessly engages in semantic gymnastics here to make this transcendent being which "believers' call "God" exist in reality.

But she's not going to get away with it. This God is not real. He does not exist in reality, but he exists only in the imagination of "believers" who delude themselves into thinking that there is a life after the physical body is decomposed and reduced back to cosmic dust, a life of ease and comfort in an amorphouse place called "heaven."

Believers, including Martha Woodward, does not bother to find out where that "heaven" is physically in the Cosmos with its billions of solar systems in our Galaxy alone, let alone with its billions of galaxies in the entire Universe.

Mariano Patalinjug

It sems to me that those who believe in organized religion take the word of man over that of god.

If we can not prove god exists, how can we claim to know what he thinks? By the prophets...who are...men....

Good article. I wish more people were as intellectually honest as this author.

//And I challenge us to do this exploration fearlessly, with uncensored curiosity and open-mindedness.//

Ah, then you are going to have to deal with the ego. Ego or self-definition or self-contraction, is the limit that is being lived and created in every moment. To transcend ego is to be fearless and ultimately to transcend ego is to Realize God. God is Always already the case. The search for God is a confession of the absence of God.

********************
As for the post below this one -

ZaleeHarris:
I believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. I believe he died for the remission of our sins. I believe he rose from the dead on the third day.

Didn't she specifically ask us not to tell stories?

I read with great interest, Martha’s dialog, and the comments that followed. I can’t tell whether those committing are pastors, teachers, or ministers of God’s Holy Word. I am not caught up in traditions, religion, and/or feel good science such as worshiping the Earth, the belief that all roads lead to heaven, or that human, animals, and the environment are equals. No, I am to subdue the Earth as in – keep it, to live long and healthy. Have dominion over it, as in to provide life sustaining things without worshiping it as THE life sustainer. And multiply in it as in procreate God-fearing humans that will repeat the same generation after generation. I have a relationship with GOD, whose name is Jehovah. He loved the world he created so much that he gave his only begotten son, Jesus. I believe that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. I believe he died for the remission of our sins. I believe he rose from the dead on the third day. I believe he gave us a comforter that serves as an instructor, a protector, and after he made sure we knew how to secure a relationship with the comforter… THE HOLY SPIRIT OF HIS FATHER, JEHOVAH GOD, he returned to heaven to sit at Jehovah’s right hand until that trumpet blows. THAT IS WHAT I BELIEVE and I am not ashamed to proclaim it! Hello pastors, ministers, and teachers; where are you on this topic? Do you want to know what GOD’s Holy Word says about faith? Read the following:
(King James Version) Hebrews 11:1-6 (READ THE ENTIRE CHAPTER); Palms 139: 1-24; Palms 83:18; James 2; 1 John 5; 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Timothy 3, Romans 10 – 12, Genesis 1: 26-29 and 1 Thessalonians 5. That’s it to faith; believe, rescue the perishing, share the experience, and multiply. PS: I fellowship, worship, and praise God with like minded Christians at the Ark of Safety Christian Church. www.thearkofsafety.org. Peace be unto you as you come to know HIM and be a testimony so that others might know HIM also. Jude 1

I have been a musician all my life. And an atheist. Yet I find myself consistently most moved by the great sacred music of the West...I probably know the text of the Catholic Mass as well as most priests because I have performed so many versions of it so many times. I always have to ask, what is it that so moves me, as nothing else quite does?

I conjecture that in the music is about something real, using the words as a pointer, but something that cannot be captured or expressed in words (All music does this, especially music without words...try listening to Beethoven op. 111 and hear what it is saying to you). I'm not even going to try to say what it might be (since I've just denied that it can be done, although occasionally a great poet gets close.)

I am also trained in math and physics, although to a much lower level of understanding and expertise. But I know enough to see that there is profound beauty, even "sacredness" in some of the ways that we can express the laws of nature (and know enough about quantum mechanics to see that the reality of the world is so much stranger than the strangest sci-fi plot), and that the mathematics of infinity is stranger still...is that another attempt to codify God?

Human beings have always tried to understand the transcendent meaning of the wotld we live in. The trouble with any picture of God made by finite human minds is that it cannot possibly succeed for obvious reasons. And knowing how small the Earth is in the Universe (which we can't begin to comprehend...the numbers are way to big) should, I think, instill some humility in us. The closest I will ever get to Heaven is the slow movement of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto; if there is something to know about continued existence after my death, I'll know it then, not before.

The odds seem against that, but I'll rest agnostic there. However, that I am incapable of imagining my non-existence (as we all are) does not prove anything about its truth. In other words, if I cannot imagine that somehow I will just "stop" doesn't mean that I must go on eternally, or at all for a second after my brain stops functioning.

In the meantime, I think we give our lives meaning ourselves, and we can choose to do that by destroying or by creating. I prefer the latter (doing music and enjoying my grand-daughter) and hope that others may find such pleasures and stop worrying about eternal punishments and in the process creating the Hell on Earth that they so vividly imagine.

A Mathematical approach:

God is defined as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. A god other than this is not worth worshiping. We have to accept that a real god is unchanging.

By definition, then,

God = constant

Now, religion says that humans can have a relationship with god: Therefore,

Human = f(god)

But we know that humans are subject to change, that is, they are not constant

Hence,

Human ≠ constant

Therefore, we have the following conclusions,

1. Human ≠ f(god),

OR

2. god ≠ constant.

If humans are not a function of god, we can have no relationship with him/her/it. If god is not constant, he/she/it is not worth worshiping. Either way, all of organized religion is worthless.

As a "fundamental" christian I have a hard time understanding this "third way" between orthodoxy and atheism. I believe that God has revealed Himself to us and wants us to live in a restored relationship with Him. If you decide who god is, is not your god a product of your imagination?

I think I tend to agree with "tendruvan". I'm pretty sure something is going on, but I sure don't need to get wound up about who's right about dogma.

As a child I went to church each Sunday, never felt anything other than this was a social event.
I have never believed in God, and do not care if there is an afterlife.
But I have allways loved the "ten commandments" and thought they were very smart.
After a very difficult childhood I have lived a life of staying afloat. I don't know why I am still alive. When I look back I allways escaped just when I was on the brink of disaster.
Now I just accept I have had a guardian angel all my life saving me from the brink of total disaster.
I still don't believe in heaven, consider myself agnostic, but I still love the "ten commandments".

Well, I'm a person who abandoned Christianity when I was 12 years old. It simply didn't, and doesn't, conform to anything I've ever experienced. So could you, Martha, define what you mean when you say, "God?"

Is it the kindly but punishing greybeard "up there?" Does the word "God" have any real meaning any more?

I do NOT experience the presence of a willful god, whether written with a capital G or a little g. What I do experience, because they tried it with me, is the ultimate echo-chamber. Kids are surrounded by stories and threats and dangling carrots in the name of God from the time of birth.

Often there's not a single person in their circle who is not also a Christian, also as a result of from-birth descriptions of this or that heavenly benefit or hellish punishment.

The promise of Heaven is a post-dated check written on a bank up in the sky. Accepting Santa Clause is the warm-up to accepting God... checking who's been naughty and nice and all that. Christmas morning is any kid's version of Heaven.

So... if nobody had told you from birth that this whole body of suggestions... Earth created in 7 days; Eve created from Adam's rib; Jesus (who I do believe existed as a teacher) being the only "son" of God born of virgin birth.

Well... do I have to go on? It's all just fairy-tale stuff foisted on the ignorant by MEN who were bent on controlling them. Same is true today, in my opinion.

I hope there will be some discussion on the basic transmission of the Christian world-view to children. Indoctrination and brainwashing is what I'd call it, having had the experience and luckily the ability to toss it off before the damage was permanent.

Every moment is a miracle. We already have heaven and hell right here on earth. I invite anyone to look up the word "metaphor" and reread the Bible with that in mind. When God typeset the Bible, it was with His tongue firmly in His cheek.

So, Martha... I'll suggest that what you're experiencing as a non-ceremonial "Christian" is simply that the effort to maintain the fantasy has become too great. You've let drop the pomp, noticed there's never any circumstance, and realized it's just all empty. But now you're stumped. What to fill the emptiness with if not... erm, discussing it to some kind of "conclusion." In public.

Good for you, but I'll tell you there's NO way words will ever fill that emptiness you feel. The fact of life without a creator God or god is something one needs to embrace to become free from the weight of all those religious lies, illusions and expectations.

Faith is like waiting for a lover to come back from the war. You know your lover is dead. You've got the letter in your drawer. But you think you can't allow the finality into your heart.

But you can, and happiness will be the result.

WELL,..! WHATEVER,.. I'M 64 GOING ON 24, AND WHENEVER THINGS JUST GET KINDA HEAVY ITS NICE TO FALL BACK ON THE HOPE THAT THERE IS SOME TRUTH TO THE EXISTANCE OF A POWERFUL, SYMPATHETIC, DECENT REFUGE. I REMEMBER SITTING ON A BOULDER AT AGE SIX. IT WAS A SUNDAY MORNING, AND THERE WAS A MAGNIFICENT PRESENCE. EVERYTHING WAS SPECIAL, AND I'VE NEVER FORGOTTEN IT. I SUSPECT GOD IS REAL, OTHERWISE WHATS THE POINT?.

to paraphrase Will Rodgers,

"I don't belong to any organized religion, I'm a shin buddhist. . . .

It is surprising reading all the comments, no one has commented about this universe where the Earth is the only place where there is life in the way we know. Even though The great physicist Stephen Hawkins believes there are aliens, but unfortunately they are looking at our earthly bounties for their use.

Every religion and spiritual belief places heavy importance on the after life. Religion, spirituality and good dharma have no importance, if we all believe that when we die we disappear in to earth as a dead roadkill.

Religion, spirituality and good dharma are the basis for civilized society for the living. That is what Bible. Torah, Koran, Vedic writings and Buddhist philosophy bring to society. If they do not create a civilized society no amount of praising Jesus or Yaweh or Allah or Krishna will give peace in the life of ordinary person.

I will be interested in reading your column to understand more of why religion or spirituality is important.

How can you experience an "ungetable" God? If you know nothing about God but his existence, what can it possibly mean to "experience" God?

It strikes me as absurd to say that if God exists, he MUST be COMPLETELY incomprehensible. It seems to me that an omnipotent God must be quite capable of creating beings that he can communicate to. The great monotheistic religions would claim that God communicates directly and indirectly; directly through general revelation accessible to everyone who simply observes the world around him and directly through special revelation via prophets and, in the case of Christianity, the incarnate Christ.

Those who wish to be "faithful" without being "religious" simply want to invent God in their own image rather than conform their life to God's image. This is not humility but arrogance.

It would be more honest to simply say you are an atheist since a faith in a totally incomprehensible God is a faith in no God.

Your God is darkness in whom there is no light. I will not join you in your darkness. I prefer the light.

Thank you for this! Consider me unboxed.
I've thought since a small child that God is unknowable (un-getable - I love it). I never understood the hubris of organized religion. I converted to Catholicism because of Palestrina and the opportunity to sing his music in the proper context, and also because Methodists were really no fun - I thought God should be more fun. If one doesn't scratch the surface of organized religion, but rather simply enjoys the pretty ritual and the art and music, one never has to question what participation really means. Dare to investigate, and my goodness, where do these folks come from, oppressing women and such. Who are thse people professing to follow Jesus (Allah/Moses/Buddha/fill in your icon or deity here) and hurting people in a way that would make Jesus (Allah//Buddha/fill in your icon or deity) cringe and then knock down some pillars/strike folks with lightning/send in the locusts?
I love religion as a research topic, a cultural organizing principle, a moral code. But people often get in the way of the reasons for religion's existence and twist it beyond moral recognition. Then again, religion is all about people and the way they understand their world. I think it's the moral that's hard to agree on. For example, that "Christians" would challenge universal health care, deny the poor a chance at health, seems completely irrational, immoral and definitely un-Christian.

I like to keep it simple. As a spiritual atheist, my atheism is a powerful cleansing tool for cutting through the clutter of superstition. What remains is solid, and very spiritual. I wrote a book on this, "Pseudoscience and Extraordinary Claims of the Paranormal (Wiley/Blackwell). I'm at: www.lulu.com/stress

I'm not sure that your hopes will be met. The anonymity of the Internet lets people say things that they would not say directly to their neighbor, whose good will they might need. I think that many of are either salesmen/women, trying to sell our religion or philosophical leitmotiv or desperately trying to reassure ourselves that our beliefs are correct by seeing if we can convince or intimidate others into accepting them. We all have a religion of some sort, even though we may recognize no god and may change our religion every week, which is foolish.

I was an altar boy (never abused) and attended church schools. We could tie up the younger priests with long discussions such as "I am in a boat with my wife and my mother, neither of whom can swim. Who should I save if the boat sinks?" I turned against religion when I went to college; I felt that the more religious you are (in terms of conventional Christianity) the more hypocritical. However, I never lost the ability to be warmed and lifted by church ritual, especially music. It doesn't happen with every church or religious group and it's more likely in a large cathedral. If I sit quietly in an outdoor setting without a need to do something at a particular time, I can get the same sensation. The clock is my enemy.

I think that there is something out there that is completely different from the material world. We can't expect that something to intervene in human affairs, I will never know how the Universe began. I believe in the Big Bang, but I don't know what came before that. Coming from Texas, I observe many people very concerned with personal salvation. This isn't limited to Texans, think of William James and The Varieties of Religious Experience. Maybe I worried about being saved as a teenager, but no longer. We humans are animals and we often act against our own best interests or behave stupidly and selfishly. Some people must be kept in jail or they will harm others, but the idea of being cleansed of my sins doesn't touch me. I've known some real criminals, but I see something good in everyone that I've known. I guess that I feel closer to Asian religions than to the monotheistic ones (I have attended Islamic services). There is something that can let me feel awe. I hope that I never lose it. I don't need to change anyone's mind about his or her religion. I would feel very guilty if I failed to respect someone else's religion. All human cultures have had religion and music

I will try your faith unboxed.

In my studies of world religions, I have found that most require an individual to define their own path to God and spiritual enlightenment. Followers are to seek out knowledge in sacred texts and by elders. All along they are supposed to be decerning what is truth and what is not.

Some people distort the sacred texts for their own purposes and the crowds that blindly follow are led astray.

I know I find the 10,000 member multi-million dollar houses of worship to be offensive, but I dare not speak for any god on this matter. My educational journey brought me to believe that god is amongst the people and god is with you when you are caring for all that has been created. I believe the temples we should be worshiping exist only when we are helping those in need.

I also believe that the same creator also visited EVERY group of people ever on this planet, took a form they would understand, and spoke in terms they would understand.

Considering all the truly evil things the christian god did on the old testament, how can anybody claim this god "is love"?

Genocide, fratricide, mass executions, mass rapes, mass murder, betting with his devil ... what a truly despotic and evil SOB this god of yours is.

The writer makes a good point in describing God as the "great whatever". Consider any God the human mind could wrap its head around would make the universe a pretty scary place and certainly a depressing one at that. Simply because something cannot be proved or disproved by the physical senses doesn't mean there is nothing above your pay grade in all creation.

you can be christian , jew, or muslim but evil knows no bounds . the religion does not make the person good it is what is inside that does. god will not turn me away because i miss mass or mutter a curse word . god will acept me because i will help someone carry their bag or give up my seat to an elderly person, or give up my time to help someone . god does not want people to kill for him he wants people to love for him

Belief in The Great Whatever? You know logic and reason are finally starting to prevail when the most people can ascribe to is a belief in "something" they cannot explain aside from assuring us it's very personal and profound. Oh really now?

You're an atheist and don't realize yet.

Posted by: divi3 | May 2, 2010 5:12 PM
=====
And is that such a bad thing? Sounds like the author is being honest with herself. A lot more than what can be said for the self-righteous religious nuts.

Belief in The Great Whatever? You know logic and reason are finally starting to prevail when the most people can ascribe to is a belief in "something" they cannot explain aside from assuring us it's very personal and profound. Oh really now?

You're an atheist and don't realize yet.

Faith without religion is a lazy man's comfort. Belief without demands for the discipline of rites, prayer or tithing is faith the easy way.

That isn't to say that all religions are the same but objective standards for thought and deed are better than a cafeteria approach with only ego to guide.

Posted by: edbyronadams | May 2, 2010 4:55 PM
======
This may be true for you. But please understand that there are others, including myself, where rites, prayer and tithing don't speak to us. I was brought up Roman Catholic by devout parents, and try as I might, even as a young person, it did not make sense to me and I could not really believe. I just had to accept that it wasn't for me.

Please do not call us "lazy!" That is insulting, and smacks of intolerance. Many of us who made a change in our religion or chose no religion at all put much long and careful and sometimes painful thought in the process -- probably much more than those who have adhered to their religion all their lives.

I respect your choice to remain with rites prayer and religion, but please respect those of us who choose to do without those things.

Faith without religion is a lazy man's comfort. Belief without demands for the discipline of rites, prayer or tithing is faith the easy way.

That isn't to say that all religions are the same but objective standards for thought and deed are better than a cafeteria approach with only ego to guide.

I think that fath is the ability -- and humility -- to accept that fact that things are not known and are not knowable at this time, and it's perfectly ok to go through life living with that. I have come to believe that God is not a seperate creative entity but rather is the Universe itself and all things in it, good and evil. Looking at it this way, the Universe needs no explanation how it came about. Accept it as it is.

Let me illustrate it as follows with an illustration:

Bob: "Hey Dave! Look at this hand puppet I just made. Whaddaya think?"
Dave: "That's nice Bob, but big deal! Who created YOU?"
pjs1965: " I did. Bob and Dave exist through what I write here. But who created ME?"
God: "I did. I am God Almighty, the creator of Heaven and Earth. But who created ME?"
Bob: "I did. You're my hand puppet."

I am a deeply spiritual person, but I am also religious; meaning I don't design my own moral compass.

For all who are convicted of their beliefs, regardless of what they are, the questions need to be asked:

From where do you derive your moral compass?

Whose ego is it (really) who leads you to your determination?

Do you believe in good and evil, or are we just existing in a body of relativism?

I believe that Jesus chose to die on the cross to save all of humanity from the judgment of their sins. I believe he died for me, and for all non believers. I believe there is no greater sacrifice or act of love. I believe that God created us and gifted us with choice. I believe in good and that evil is real. I believe that good IS Love. I believe as imperfect people, if it were not for the Grace of God, we would be doomed. I believe I fail everyday walking the perfect Christian walk and that Jesus knew we all would. If not for the grace of forgiveness, every day, there would be no hope.

I believe that Christ's purpose was to sacrifice himself for our imperfection. That His words were meant to teach us that true love is the answer to everything. I believe we really should love our neighbor as equally as we love ourselves, and I believe in One Perfect and Holy God. That he loves us beyond measure, and that his deepest desire is to be in community with us.

We live in a very broken world, with very broken people. Myself included. I believe that God is Love, and that it is the only answer. I leave judgment to only One alone.

'The most popular small talk is: "Hot enough for you?" '

I was in Laredo, Texas for six years. One says "It is warm today."

That is the conversation.

This is too close to my own views to be critical, but I might suggest that existence does change. Being able to live without answers does not mean they will not come. And if and when they do arrive, we had better be ready to use them.

And this includes the ability to see the basic aspects of our lives as answers. Perhaps life is too simple and direct for us to appreciate it.

A simple story is not a false one.

Whatever Martha's problems are, the telling thing is that she's going to be given a forum at "On Faith" once a month by Quinn and Meacham which will be a religion-bashing even, much like the forums the atheists regularly get to use as a platform here, as well as the political activists at the Centert for American Progress. It's all a part of the great push for 'progressivism'.

I think the greatest faith I've come across is love without condition. To give to life without expecting anything back, whether you get rewarded with an afterlife or not, or get another chance at this one, even through all the confusion and contradictions. And to have faith in those human qualities of respect, giving every man their dignity no matter how angry you get, kindness, stopping violence, being honest as possible, and respecting the natural world and the beauty constructed in this world and the universe and in ourselves. It seems to me that is at the core of all the religions and literature in the world, and we should continually struggle to follow those ideas.

Hmmm... This sounds rather muddled. How can you believe in something you freely claim you don't know anything about? Often, this is just a sign of insecurity--there is stuff I don't know about out there. Rather than letting the conversation end there, some would prefer to hold on to a higher force that gives a sense of security even if what that is may be entirely unknown. As said, "if there is no God, we'll have to invent one".

Good luck, Martha, with your "GOD", for the existence of which you present no evidence and which you demean by calling "The Great Whatever". How childish of you!

And good luck too with your "FAITH":

FAITH: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.

-Ambrose Bierce, 1911

I fear you won't receive many comments on your impending blogs. There's really not much to be said about nonsensical fluff.

RE: the post by: pjs1965 | May 2, 2010 at 1:53 PM - If I were to have written a message before pjs1965 - I probably would have written very similiar comments.

I am a person of faith who doesn't apologize for being religious. Do I lord my beliefs over people? No. However, my religious tradition tells stories about a loving God. My religious tradition raises money and organizes missions to Haiti...to do what one faith oriented person cannot do alone. My religious tradition builds hospitals, colleges and universities. My religious tradition teams with other traditions and feeds the hungry in our inner city.

Yeah, organized religious has its problems. But, I sure would rather have a religious tradition than your "me and my god" beliefs any day.

Great Topic!
I do get tired of people who assume I am not spiritual because I don't follow any particular religion. My spirituality is a personal thing for me, so I rarely find myself discussing it with others.

My only concern: the word "GOD" is so heavily loaded with enculturated meanings and assumptions (gender, singularity, etc) that I find it unhelpful for my own spiritual quests. I think this is why one reader considered your views somewhat Deist.

I do think consciousness continues after death, but I doubt we'd remember much or anything about this life. Yes, I think there's an afterlife; I also think that the first step is a doozy. Good luck to all of us with that!

I have read many of the comments, not all, but many. What strikes me as interesting is the lack of acknowledgment of something we call sin in its many forms.
Everyone drinks the wine but no one admits to it. Very interesting....

John Lennon may have been on to something when he sang,"imagine no religion". Just imagine, no Israeli expansion from the River in Egypt to the Tigris and Euphrates, no Muslims taking down buildings and blowing up markets, and Christian fundamentalist no longer supporting corporate fascism here at home by continuing to vote Republican. Yeah, just imagine.

Thanks, Martha.

It's intriguing to me that the angriest, most intolerant and dismissive comments here are from super-zealous Christians and hardcore atheists, and that they're about equal in negative intensity. That makes me wonder if these two groups have a lot more similarities than they have differences.

The author's statement, "very little useful public exploration of what it means to live and work together--in this world at this time--as persons of faith," betrays a serious lack of knowledge. Christianity in general and Roman Catholicism in particular are the greatest source of non-governmental charity in the world. Jesus Christ's command, "Love one another as I have loved you," is the driving force behind Christian action in the world, but without knowing with what authority He commands, His statement carries no moral compulsion - hence, the importance on understanding "the fine points of religion."

The writer would seem to be in pretty good company here as her views on faith and religion are in agreement with Jefferson's who believed as far as he knew, he belonged to a congregation of one.

This is a great topic! No matter what we believe or not believe about God, it is ultimately a personal journey as we go through life. Many have arrived at conclusions that they are happy with and they stay. I have given up worrying about ever "arriving." What I believe about God today is true for me today, which is different from what I believed 5 years ago, and what I believe in the future may be different as well.

I was brought up as a Roman Catholic. But I could never come to believe what I was taught even when I was young. When one has to "try" to believe, something isn't working. Catholicsm also steeped in guilt, which was destructive to how I saw myself. I find no evidence of Heaven or Hell either, except those that we create within our lives today. The Bible to me is no more authoritative than any other book -- a collection of stories. Who their real authors are no one really knows. Hearsay upon hearsay upon hearsay reinterprested through the ages. I find nuggets of wisdom in the Bible, but they are embedded in what is to me is mostly rubbish.

Today my view of God is best described as a form of Deism. It has been influenced by Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason." God to me is not a surpeme being, nor a Great Whatever, but the magnificently indifferent Universe itself and everything and everyone, good and bad, is a part of it.

I've also found that a spiritual journey also tends to be a one way trip. Old beliefs once discarded are very hard to go back to.

The very plurality of the 35,000+ known religions on earth, each having its own agenda of what to believe, and having been created by only male human beings, should be enough evidence to convince skeptics from embracing any of them.

Having faith is NOT limited to belief in God (or any other deity).

This is indeed an interesting topic. Like the author, I grew up in church and became disillusioned with the ritualistic nature of religion. I also believe common sense has to prevail in everything and I often did not find it. I suppose I would be considered an agnostic. I believe God exists. I just believe we are too presumptuous as a people to know who He is. I find it ludicrous that anyone would make an attempt to do so, but religions have been doing so for centuries.

I also do not believe there should be any FEAR instilled when speaking about our Creator. It is completely contradictory to do so when proclaiming him to be all about love.

God exists. Common sense tells us that something started this thing called creation, but do not expect me to buy into all the stories I heard growing up under the guise of it being history. We often write our own histories to suit us as if we are playing a game of gossip.

My daily relationship to God is seen in the beauty of creation itself. Anytime I commune with nature or just travel down the road, I see and feel God everywhere.

Martha, I read your article with interest. I am a man of faith, not of religion. An 'salt of the earth' woman on an East Texas farm had this to say a few years ago, and it expresses precisely how I believe: "Faith is about an individual's relationship with God. Religion is about power in the name of God."

Martha, here: It seems, for the most part, that we are doing exactly what I hoped -- having a (mostly) non-judgmental check-in with where we are as individuals in the God/Faith/Religion realm. I'm not going to post a lot, because this is meant to be a conversation among all of us, not between you and me. But I am going to think and react and write, and what I write will be posted in the "writings" section at faithunboxed.org.

I look forward to the conversation and hope that the usual vitiol that the subject matter elicits will be modulated enough to allow some rational discussion to occur.

"You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own.But it is different from the religion of the naive man. For the latter God is a being from whose care one hopes to benefit and whose punishment one fears; a sublimation of a feeling similar to that of a child for its father, a being to whom one stands to some extent in a personal relation, however deeply it may be tinged with awe,
But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him,is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmoney of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. This feeling is the guiding principle of his life and work, and in so far as he succeeds in keeping himself from the shackles of selfish desire. It is beyond question closely akin to that which has possessed the religious geniuses of all ages."

Albert Einstein. "The World As I see It" p.218-

You have described your religion. But I suggest that you dress lightly for your eternal journey. Learn the lingo. The most popular small talk is: "Hot enough for you?"

Enough of this mumbo-jumbo. I'd rather be arguing about the ontological status of chicken soup. But it's probably less dangerous to have lunatic spiritualists engaged in self-reflection like this than to have them take the usual actions (murder, repression, thievery) they take in the real world.

Author is on the slippery slope to atheism, bodes well for society to see so many starting down the same path whether they realize it or not.

"Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God." Matt 5:8

Think of those life moments when you were pure of heart. You were walking in God's light.

Martha, you cannot say that your god is beyond comprehension and then try to comprehend it. That is what we call an exercise in futility. Secondly, if you believe in your god, then you must believe that he (not she because all the bible writers said he) gave you the gift of reason. This gift allows you to realize that the god thing is only in your head and therefore does not exist. Then you can move on to more important things. Lastly, a myth is a myth is a myth. For all the simpletons out there, the fact that there is a beautiful world is a result of millions of years of evolutionary processes and not the result of some voodoo god. You have no problem letting go of the infamous "golden rule" so why can't you people let go of this absurd god thing??????????

I fully agree with the author. However, this constant dissection that I see in the west between "religion" and "spirituality" is something that bothers me a lot. By religion, I take it you mean the mainstream Judeo-Christian-Islamic worldview.

Coming from an eastern religion, I see no such distinction. But then, my religion actually teaches that god doesn't pick "favorites". I am not required to "save souls" and score brownie points with god.

If you see the beauty, enchantment and wonder in anything, that is God. The Hindus maintain that "There is ONLY GOD" and nothing besides god.

The Christian-Islamic philosophy on the other hand seems attempt distilling minutiae such as "There is Only ONE God". All "Else" is "Satan". In other words, "Us" and "Them".

Tolerance is a great virtue! No wonder the eastern religions managed to thrive over many thousands of years while these "chosen" people are out to destroy everything in their path!

Martha Woodruff:

This is a great topic. I notice that the usual naysayers have already spoken, either by claiming to have the "true Way" or by arguing using the dictionary.

I come from a different background in that I was part of the religious establishment, saw from the inside out what was dysfunctional and have come to the conclusion that religion needs to be unboxed.

Perhaps this is not the best forum, and perhaps those not interested in really participating will fall off, but I urge you to continue your forum.

After all, the Dalai Lama says,"My religion is compassion." That's a different paradigm, isn't it? Peace!
Posted by: onlineprof10 | May 2, 2010 10:56 AM

Martha Woodruff:

This is a great topic. I notice that the usual naysayers have already spoken, either by claiming to have the "true Way" or by arguing using the dictionary.

I come from a different background in that I was part of the religious establishment, saw from the inside out what was dysfunctional ag

Good for you lady. Will keep an eye for your posts to respond.

My old Washington call to arms says "God Save the United States". What else is new? The United States won't be saving God. We'll be lucky to save some of the fish in the oil drenched Gulf of British Petroleum. This is now a military operation.

I consider myself spiritual rather than religious. I grew up in a Baptist family and in my youth I was religious.

Religious people feel closer to God by worshiping with others and listening to a sermon. I feel at one with God just by being aware of the beauty of creation.

It was through meditation that I experienced what can be described as being one with all that is. My consciousness became universal consciousness. In that state of consciousness I was love and had compassion for all beings. It was from this experience that I understood what Jesus meant when he said the Kingdom of Heaven is within you.

When I love and have compassion for all then I am living in the Kingdom of Heaven; I am at peace and it is bliss.

Jesus was not religious (he saw that practices of the churches of his time were not spiritual). His teachings were to Be Love, Be Peace, as that is the path to living in the kingdom of heaven right here and now.

Those who sit in church and pray for military victory have lost their spirituality, those who put money or power ahead of care for the sick and poor have lost their spirituality.

He warned that it is extremely difficult for a rich man to reach this kingdom of heaven because the rich man is focused on greed and selfishness rather than love and compassion.

Jesus was spiritual but not religious; and it is when I became spiritual that I felt at peace and found myself living in the kingdom of heaven in the here and now. It is bliss.

My religion taught about a kingdom of heaven that I hoped for as my after death experience; but instead I discovered that it is the immediate experience of being love, peace, and joy for all of creation.

I came to truly know the God that you speak of in the church. I have always known and felt the God presence that you speak of, but I did not have a true understanding, or the wisdom of God, nor was I truly experiencing God in his fullness and richness, until I went back to church. My purpose for going back was to gain knowledge and understanding of this mysterious being that one can not see, but was always taught that he created the world.

As a child growing up in the Church and attending off and on as a young adult, I had always had a pretty good understanding of God as the creator of the universe, world, man, life, et al. What I did not fully understand was the meaning of death, or the end of one's life, until the death of a loved one.

It was then that I realized that God was much bigger than the creation stories that I had come to know over the years and the only place for me to begin my journey in knowing him much better was in the church with a Bible in tow. I have now been attending church pretty regularly now for 20 years or more, but it is not the church or their religion that controls my thinking or belief's. This church and several others and the people within the church helped to guide me in doing my own research, so that I could come to a better understanding of God, myself, people in general, religions, life, et al.

I now know that to have a relationship and better understanding of God, is to also have a relationship with people who are different than you. Especially, those that can drive you nuts. I now know that religion is just that, a bunch of rituals that make people feel one way about them selves or others, or think one way about themselves or others.

I now know that there is only one God and that my experiences and relationship with God is the most rewarding journey's that I have ever been on. As a matter of fact, I am still on that journey and every day I learn something new.

Over the course of these years, while on my journey, many people have told me that I am not the same person that they knew 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago. I tell them that is very true.

God has done a job on me and he's still working on me, and it's been one of the most rewarding gifts of my life, so far.

If they want to know more, I tell them about my journey in bits and pieces, of course, so that I don't feed them to much overwhelming information. Just enough to plant a seed.

Peace!

thank you Martha, I know exactly how you feel, I have felt the same way for a very longtime. The Bible is a wonderful book of faith, as is the Koran, and the Torah, and numerous books by the Dali Llama, and Buddha, and Confucious. But they aren't books of facts, which is where religious people go wrong. They were writen by men, men with their own ideas and opinions, as a guide to living rightously. The truly sad thing about these books of faith is how sexist and in some cases, misogynistic. Much of the so-called miracles are explained away with modern science. Which leaves faith as the only factor of why to read these books. I read a book by Congressman John Lewis called Walking with the Wind, and it restored my faith in humanity when I read of how he persevered, no matter the violence and vitriol directed at him and his colleagues. I love examples of how people's faith gets them through horrific times, their faith, not their religion, there is a difference...

I was raised in the southern Baptist tradition, but by a father who actively questioned. While I don't subscribe to the talking snake point of view, I do believe in higher power, and also believe it to be the height of hubris to suppose one can *know* the Big G/Great Whatever, etc.

My expressions of faith take the forms of volunteer work and providing other support to my community and to individuals in need.

Do you folks realize that you sound like you are smoking something or eating mushrooms or using peyote? This is the 21st century and EVERYTHING, and I do mean EVERYTHING, ever claimed by a group of people identifying themselves by their worship and beliefs, has turned out to be false and are now extinct. A few more centuries and the same will be said of current day beliefs. Martha Woodroof is surely based out of St. Elizabeth's mental hospital. Who let her out?

What is the difference between mythology of the ancient times and current day religious faiths? NOTHING! There are no Greek gods or Aztec gods or Mayan gods or Hebrew God or Whatevers or holy spirits or sons of God or Allahs or Buddhas or kitchen gods or on and on and on. There is only mankind - us humans - and the only "faith" we need to have and to keep is our word to each other.

When every human being lives in a manner in which every other human being can trust him or her, then the world is safe and will survive.

Don't any of you Christians who profess to know the story of Jesus Christ realize that it is a STORY about BETRAYAL? It is nothing else but that and like Aesop's Fables, it portrays a lesson to be learned. And it is a lesson that Catholic hierarchy has abused - the Catholic priests all the way up to the Pope(s) have BETRAYED all those who have been raised as Catholics. How can any Catholic not leave his religion and stop raising his children as Catholic?

Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, and Buddhists are all being spat on and murdered and relegated to some form of abuse, some where in the world. Why?

I am confident that when all of humankind turns its attention to and raises its children to be faithful to their word and to never betray another human being - parent, child, sibling, stranger - then there will be none of the blathering idiocy and nonsense that is published here by Martha Woodroof and by 95% of the comments. "Religious faith" is a way to avoid the responsibility of being a member of the human race right here on earth.

Semi-agnostic faith, the sort of thing Ms. Woodruff is talking about, ticks off a lot of people. On one hand are the craven tradition-junkies who cannot imagine a personal relationship with the Divine unless there is proper lineage and authority; and on the other hand are the sneering atheists, who refuse to acknowledge any experiences which lead to genuine faith. Direct experience of the Divine makes people uncomfortable.

Semi-agnostic faith is faith that is based on personal experiences of some sort of Divine, but which experiences do not grant complete knowledge or complete truth. I think that many people have these sorts of experiences but bury them or belittle them because our culture is unfriendly to them. It's a shame, really. More often than not, such experiences if nurtured can lead to real personal growth.

I encourage anyone interested in this subject to read William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience." It's a little academic in tone and shows it's age in spots. But it poses still-valid questions about what religious experience is and what such experience means for real people in their real lives.

Martha, Thank you for speaking to the spiritual / institutional divide. As an Orthodox Non-itarian, I find it simpler to say you are thinking/ praying to yourself. Defining one's 'self' as beyond or greater than the individual or personal allows for a unity with 'self' akin to unity with God. Thought brings meaning to the concept of meaning. So ones faith may be called philosophy. The way, tao, the light? Where there are thoughtless philosophies ( religions or politics which demand the 'faithful' abandon critical thought ) there is no free self with which one may commune; there are only slaves.

I think this is a fine initiative Martha. I go along with your first paragraph, then it starts to get a little complex.

Someone mentioned Deism. Deism seems as close as it got to my understanding, but not quite.

To me the evidence of a creator is all around us. The comprehension or nature of such a creator is likely beyond our understanding. Humans are fallible and likely misinterpreting ancient scripture and revelations.

But, I suspect God, whatever its nature, is not mean or vengeful.

Faith and religion are most definitely separate, yet related concepts. Faith can be personal; religion is a community or group of people who have a particular kind of faith. I realized several years ago that religion did not satisfy my need for faith (people kept telling me I was practicing my faith wrong). I have also seen religion (generally, not universally) take increasing steps to insert itself in government and politics - something the Constitution pretty clearly forbids. These experiences come from my personal encounters in church and religious organizations, not from TV. I have long believed that man will use even the most well-intentioned subjects to gain power and/or wealth. I believe man has used religion and the Bible in the same way. My faith is both personal and inexplicable as Ms. Woodroof states. I have been living this unorthodox faith for several years now. I finally feel my faith needs are being met.

At the moment of commitment, the universe conspires to assist us. (Goethe) this, for me, is God.

@ Martha Woodroof

Your position sounds very close to 18th Century Deism, though I'm not sure it was much into personal relationships with the Deity.

Would you distinguish your faith from Deism?

Martha - Thank you for your thoughtful and thought provoking comments. My only quibble is that you have managed to make some pretty strong assumptions about religious institutions being unable to have the type of conversations that you are seeking. So much so that you have given up on them. In my church every Sunday and some days in between we have this very conversation that you are attempting to start - an open, daunting, challenging conversation free of boundaries and assumptions about how to live our lives. I am saddened that you failed to find a church/temple/mosque where this kind of conversation and community is possible - but they ARE out there. I hope your readers, in addition to participating in an enlightening and fascinating discussion online with you, will not assume that the loudest religious people out there in the media represent what goes on inside progressive religious communities today.

To say we cannot know God is correct in the global sense but incorrect in the personal sense...The historical record of Jesus leaves us with the perfect representation of the NATURE of God...

As for lumping together both church and religion, the New Covenant in Christ was about the end of religious hurdles...The Church, described by Christ as His bride, was intended to become the community of those who believe in God even though they do not know Him aside from the historical Christ...It was intended to be the place where people helped each other live in love and good works...

My thinking is that is the height of arrogance to proclaim from the mountaintops that God is unknowable in any sense but that we are somehow to have a semblance of faith that He/She/It is out there somewhere...

It is not religion to believe that "...in God we live and move and have our being." Exercising a personal version of faith conjured up out of some inner instinct apart from revelation of any kind is to say, "I have faith in my own version of God...Don't disturb me with the historical record of the faithful."

Stan Moody
www.stanmoody.com

Martha,

As a Christian, I find your sense of faith very close to mine and very close the way Jesus uses the word in the Synoptic Gospels. In Matthew in particular, every time the word faith is used it refers to a deep sense of trust. It is intransitive, a capacity for trust, not faith in something, someone, or some set of propositions. The people whose faith Jesus praises are people who could not have had any knowledge of what the church a generation later would teach about him. They new him to be a teacher, healer, and good man and trusted that he could help them. The disciples didn't always show this same level of trust, and so Jesus called them "you of little faith."

It is this capacity for trust that we learn from infancy, from parents, siblings, and others who care for us and respond unselfishly and lovingly to our needs. Education and training can grow that into religious faith, but that's not the only way to go. A person who learns this trust in early childhood becomes a person of faith whatever their religious beliefs.

The thing most lethal to building faith is child abuse, which limits the child's capacity for trust and in severe cases may produce a monster. Such comprehensive loss of capacity to trust creates sociopaths. Interestingly, Jesus used children as models of faith and the only time he ever referred to capital punishment was in the context of child abuse.

You are on to something pure and fundamental here.

Herb

Thank you skealh and madmonk73.
Dear Martha,

I totally understand the disdain for religion. It doesn't take a genius to find problems with religion or any other ill in the world. I'm sorry but you don't get much credit for that. However, it does take some insight and discernment to discover the solution to a problem. And that's where i believe you are lacking strength.

When God, yes whose family member Jesus Christ truly resides in the heart, then it becomes more than just belief in God. It is a relationship formed out of true love.
Unfortunately much of what you see in the media about what it means to be a Christian is pure money driven, power hungry fantasy, just like everything else on TV. But because we are slaves to the TV(which most people wont admit to) we cannot know the truth.

The truth is that God the great "I Am", not the great "Whatever" paid the penalty for the dark side of every human being (that we try so desperately to mask) through his "family member" Jesus Christ. And He wants a relationship with you. He wants his love for you reciprocated, just like the relationship all parents want with their children. You love your mother and because you do, you call her by her rightful endearing name Mom, mama, mother etc... You wouldn't call her "Whatever" would you?

Please don't by into this new age rubbish. It is the spirit of the Anti-Christ wrapped in roses. Smells sweet, but quickly dies.
Open your heart, humble yourself, confess your dark side to God, and get to know Christ, he is the solution to the problem of religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIs34O4YoNo&feature=related

Martha,

They say wisdom begins by acknowledging how little one can truly know. So, I see the merit of your treatise and agree.

Many Christian "religionists," it seems, would try and construct an intellectual Tower of Babel, based on beliefs, to reach the Divine.

To the contrary, ancient wisdom, as explained by Joseph Campbell, Joel Goldsmith and Emmett Fox, seems to universally point to the importance of seeking God within, within the human heart... through time spent in the stillness of prayer and meditation.

For some of us, the path of spiritual study, contemplation and prayerful meditation seems the Way. An open mind seems a prerequisite.

The "essence" one meets in the stillness is quite real, given the patience and persistence to seek. Supposedly, Jesus sat with the disciples days at a time in such practice, as have all great spiritual masters.

In this carnal existence of flesh meeting spirit, many say our souls become dirtied by the nature of materiality and our lower self. Taking the time for direct communion with the One has a purifying and cleansing effect.

We don't "go" to heaven, we grow there.

The Great Whatever...wow your prayers must be Earth shattering; "Oh Great Whatever, you are so great...or at least I think I can't be sure because I can't know because apparently you aren't so great as to have revealed yourself to humanity adequately. As such in all honesty I must call you "The Whatever". I pray to you today, but I'm not sure why, I guess its because I think you're really big and really powerful...but I can't know because you apparently don't give a rats arse about me otherwise this conversation wouldn't be so one sided. Whatever, today would lift my song to you but since I don't know anything about you I didn't know what to write. I would preach a proclamation about you but since I don't know you I'll just attack those who think that you've actually revealed yourself to them...idiots. Whatever, right now I'm not even sure you're listening, I'm not even sure you care...BAH...whatever....AMEN."

Martha,
It appears you are taking the first step in seeking the truth based on what you are willing to discard.

I think this is an excellent beginning point to validating your own faith and what you decide ultimately to put your faith in.

Looking at faith outside of religious context, allows the individual to explore the effects of faith outside or religious context, as well.

Seeking to understand faith within the context of 'daily life' and letting go of what has been taught by established sources, may lead to a deeper understanding of the concept of faith itself.

In examining the 'whatever' or the recipient of faith, perhaps maintaining a context of reality as a focus and outcome of faith within the context of reality, i.e. having faith in people, as the great whatever.

Patrick

Martha Woodruff states: "God, in order to be God, exists completely detached from any human conception of God."

Why does she erect this wall?

For me, my conception of God is not separate from God. It is part of what God is. For me, a conversation on faith apart from religion needs to set aside this assumption of separateness.

beLIEf.

I have faith in the complete Bible as a Middle East textbook. Cut to the qwik:)

1. Israel should declare itself a YHWHist nation. YHWH is not God or Adonai or Lord. Right now for me it's Einstein's Theory of General Relativity. Just substitute E=MC2 for YHWH in your head and the Bible is 21st century human behavior.

2. Saudis should complete their project: Hebrew Quran.

3. We should have an Electronic Quran-Strong's Concordance

4. Hebrew should be offered in public school.

Human beings are compelled to be a part of a team on virtually all issues. You can be a part of many different teams, but your religious team has risen to the top in the Grand Separation of Human Teamology. Someone figured out that there is money and power in maintaining the superiority of their religious team, and here we are, battling to the death the different views of an impossible to define and prove subject, all for the profit and egos of a few. The team of the Whatever needs more members.

how can you have Faith and not be religious...
all religions have dogma, norms of behaviour...
will you say GOD told you it's ok when doing something only you think it's ok...
if your religion is about GOD, thats who you listen...
all Religions have caretakers, if your have problems or don't match the dogma of your beliefs, keep your Faith in GOD and disregard man...

Prayer is the means to know the unknowable. If one wishes to know God one must practice prayer...specifically, enter into your inner room...what I call the room of no thought. When one attempts to do this, one discovers their inability to still their thoughts. It is in the stillness that the Divine may be known.
Cordially with Blessings
Van

Dear Ms. Woodruff,
As you can see already, you'll get little of what you're looking for, I think. Probably because most of us either have a more specific religious view or else (like me) are atheists or agnostics. And you've quite thoroughly dismissed all of us from your conversation. You see us all in the same box, presumably the box of denying the obvious truths that you know to be true (that there is a God and that no one can know more about him/her/it than you do). To most of us, of course, you are instead trying to stake out an intermediate position between the religious and non-religious. And perhaps an illogical one; granting that no one can know anything specific about God, why do you think that anyone can know that there is a God at all? And whatever reason you come up with for that, someone else can come up with an analogous one to support a more specific, "religious" absolute knowledge as well.

If you don't want any atheist to contribute to this conversation (which is probably a good idea), I apologize for intervening and I won't post again. But from my perspective, I do have to ask this: what do you see as the difference between "what it means to live and work together--in this world at this time--as persons of faith" and to live and work together in this world at this time as persons of kindness and good will and no faith whatsoever?

I call this the 'arguing over magic dead guys' problem. Until some deity type shows up, or makes himself obvious by giving someone magical prophet powers, most of what's written as entity oriented dogma is just flat out drivel. What we know is that there is a great unknowing about this.

The problem with the magic dead guy worship stuff is that they're dead, and not coming back either. We have no signs, portents, prophets with magic powers, and I'm not reading about anyone like that floating around anywhere in the world in the news.

We may well be too stupid as a species still for a deity to want to talk to us again.

In any case, the only good choice is to attempt to lead a decent life. Part of that is to learn as much as we can, and do for ourselves as best we can.

No where does it say "go forth and be stupid", or "kill the different people". God, of whatever flavor you want to chant at, knows about all these other religions, and obviously is not getting as wound up as the people who claim to speak for Him/Her/It. So they really don't have much excuse for all the rabble rousing from what I can figure out.

Oh, I'm pretty sure that blowing up schools, shooting children, turning them into soldiers, whacking limbs & heads off, war rape, terroristic violence, narco-trafficking, well all that sort of stuff is evil. While the same people can not claim to have any more clue about the fate of the evil than they can the good, it at least provides an easy to look at example of 'how dumb are you if this is all there is'. Evil acts might ensure some dissolution of whatever is left of us after we die after all.

AUM.
DHARMA ENCOMPASSES FAITH AND RELIGION
By Chitranjan Sawant.
DHARMA is a Sanskrit word that encompasses all that a human being should do or not do.A human being should walk on the path of Righteousness. He and she should keepall that is EVIL at bay. Just follow the Dharma and your action or inaction will not go haywire. One does not have to do a hair splitting between faith and religion.
WHAT IS DHARMA
Right from the time one opens one's eyes in the morning, goes through all kinds of activities till the time he or she hits the sack it is ACTION done by an individual's soul. The soul is responsible for every action done by it and the reward or punishment will follow.
In the Vedic philosophy of life, it is called the KARMA and the reward or punishment that a soul receives is called KARMAPHAL or fruits of action and/or inaction.
Back to the original question to find what will guide our thought and action so that we do good karma? As per Manu Maharaj, ten principles guide our action and these TEN principles comprise the DHARMA. No rituals, no religion and no faith in a deity or an image or a prophet.The DHARMA is for all human beings and no single individual is called a son of God. All humans are equals in the eye of God. Let us analyse Manu;s Ten Principles that go to define DHAMA.
Patience, Forgiveness, Sublimation of desires, Not entertaining the thought of Stealing, Purity of body, mind and soul,Control of human urges,Sharpening of BUDDHI or intellect,Openness in receiving Spiritual knowledge,Pursuing the TRUTH,Eliminating ANGER - these are the TEN COMMANDMENTS that guide a human being's lifeof righteousness.
Thus we see that the Vedic way of life is devoid of religion and rituals and there is no requirement of reposing FAITH in a prophet or a godly man.
The individual humanbeing, both male and female, have equal access to the Almighty to say prayers and be listened.
Therefore, I strongly recommend that all human beings observe theTen Commandmnts of DHARMA and achieve the goal of MOKSHA.
What is MOKSHA ?
It is through the Karma that a soul is elevatedor goes into abyss. If thecumulative effect of Karma is assessed by the Almighty, an individual soul may earn the credit of being freed from the cycle of birth, death and rebirth. That soul has thus attained MOKSHA or liberation from the cycle of birth, death and reincarnation of the soul.
This is the end result of a soul's action or Karma as per the Dharma.
__________________________________
For a chat please write to
upvanom@yahoo.com

Whoops!
Religion is a synonym for faith not religion, obviously.
Sorry. Human error there. Please forgive me.

Oh ye of little faith in a good dictionary:
Words are flexible and can have more than one meaning. The word faith has at least 7 meanings including being a synonym for religion. Religion as a word has at least 4 meanings including, of course, being a synonym for religion.
But don't take my word for it, look it up and end all doubt that words are flexible.

I believe that "being washed in the blood" is a very strange concept. It is kin to the mindset that fosters the idea of killing people who work on the Sabbath. I believe that taking the Bible literally is a stumbling block to experiencing the pure love of creation. I believe that all religions are cult religions.

Hmm... we in the modern world seem to have this conceit that our thoughts are new and somehow a little 'smarter' than those who have gone before us.

Comparing notes of our experience of God is certainly not a new thing, and I doubt any new insights will surface. This is a classic case of not knowing history and being doomed to repeat it.

Augustine, a Berber from North Africa, observed 1700 years ago that our hearts are restless until they find rest in God. People have been discussing this ever since.

It is easy to dismiss 'religion' as vested (selfish) interests, institutionalized bigotry, a means to control, etc. Certainly these can come with the humans involved (as it will with this 'new' discussion).

Humans abusing power for selfish gain is the primary source of evil in history - whether in religious or other institutions.

However, there are deep wells of experience from people of faith who have gone before us. Why start with 'God 101'? With a little humility, we can learn from those who experienced God through the centuries and who have much to teach us.

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater misses the point a bit, don't you think?

jkrovari

HIGH FIVE!

Sorry for the repeated postings, but I came to this discussion late, and it is a discussion I want to participate in.

"the great Whatever" is love"

Sorry, but no. The great "Whatever" is the line between this and that. Between black and white. Between love and hate.

There IS no love without hate. Although we might all prefer to live in "love," the word has no meaning at all except in opposition to its opposite.

Again, I suggest listening to Alan Watts. He, and the Mandelbrot Set, have convinced me that "existence" is the line between light and dark. Between love and hate.

There is no yin without yang. There is no here without there.

This is not to give love and hate equal respect, but to realize that if no one "hated" we would not recognize "love." We can all hope to move toward and especially experience as much "love" as we can, but we cannot have one without the other.

This, as I understand from Watts, is the nature of the universe, and it should be recognized, not with resignation, but with understanding.

To wish for the elimination of the dark is to wish for the meaninglessness of the light.

I hope that somehow you can use the bible to get a few facts straight. Hebrews 11:1 says that "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." In the same chapter it says that "Without faith it is impossible to please God, for you must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek him" The old Testament promised a Messiah, the prophecies are fulfilled in Jesus. The New Testament promises the Holy Spirit in us and the ability to understand God's will in our lives. I know that someone will argue against these points but I believe that God exists, and that Jesus is coming back again for his Church. There are NO denominations in heaven. Only those who are born again and washed in the blood.

"Nowhere in the Bible have I found that a person has to be within four wall of a religious entity to worship."

I don't think you're reading the ENTIRE Bible. I'm guessing your just reading the Gospels.

There is plenty of damning stuff in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament beyond the Gospels.

Try reading Exodus, for example.

"we have all most likely decided something about God"

Not the Apathetic Agnostics. Their motto?

"We don't know, and we don't care."

Check them out on the web. You, too, can become ordained clergy, qualified to perform marriages. (Which in my county, anyone can do for a payment of $25 to become a "clerk of the court" for a day.)

I suggest that everyone who wants to participate in this discussion listen to the recorded lectures of Alan Watts.

He turned me into a TAOIST! (With tip of the hat to Monty Python.)

Nearly everything about organized religion I find appallingly unacceptable and simplistic because it is founded on solely on belief. It is founded on nothing except a willingness to believe. I am awestruck by the beauty and complexity of Nature. I realize that I am less than a flyspeck in the whole grand scheme of things. I possess a moral compass that originated in me naturally. I didn't have to have morality beaten into me. I have read enough science to understand how billions of years of Evolution can transform chemicals into sentient beings. And I reject any notion of a personal spirit who is interested in me and my welfare and who punishes mankind with floods, earthquakes, volcanos, huricanes, tornados, and Republicans because some people reject the Christian Bible as a literal blueprint for modern living. Just as teapartiers refuse to have ObamaCare jammed down their throats, I refuse to have pedophile priests jammed down mine on account of their spooky relationship with "God."

Religion has its problems. Institutions have hierarchies and hierarchies are anathema to spiritual reality. However, going it alone has its weaknesses as well. Using a cafeteria approach to spiritual lets the consumer skip over the unpleasant demands that that coherent set of doctrines automatically places on an adherent and without discipline, there is no value in spiritual belief.

Absolutely YES! Hey, if you're going to believe in God isn't it better to believe what you do and not what some organization tells you to believe to advance their own agenda and sustain their organizations own existence while advancing their power base? Religion by it's very nature is ungodly.

I have lots of faith..,.,.faith in humankind. You know them. They're the people that imagined "God". But, since there has never been any evidence of "God", I'll stick with those who see him of her in their fellow humans.

Judy Woodroof and Martha Woodroof ! Are you the same person?

There is nothing wrong with you having faith to what ever it means on a personal sense and level. God is what man or rather the controlling hierarchy of man, most over zealous organized religious entity to control the hearts and minds created as the oldest ponzi scheme. As far as the Christians it the blasted pope with his Catholic Vatican, a State Within a State, enjoying all the diplomatic privileges, but accepting none of the responsibilities, and pay no taxes. While all the SOBs live high on the hog at the expense of the poor flock.

If you are Judy, I have always liked and admired you. Keep the faith mama.

An amazing thing. Jesus has returned to touch our lives again after so many decades of absence. The racial hate, homophobic xenophobic populace and teachings, war and it's death and maiming, the deepening separation between the people and the wealthy, 48 million without health insurance; and the nation's holy demanding that they just go away as chaff in the wind. Oh yes, Jesus has returned, just as when Pious supported Hitler and the Nazi idealogy, he has returned. To me, it's time to get god out of our lives, and stop the hatred that jesus has again established in our world.

How about having faith in the Ethic of Reciprocity?
Is nothing new.
Martha, if you were a male in the year 629 CE and living in the Arab Peninsula, you would have happily embraced a Religion that gave male authority over women and gave an excuse for grabbing the land of people of other religion.

and I will not preach.

OK, I’m in.

I admit I have lost faith in ‘On Faith’. There’s just too much hate & anger between any interesting discussions. It’s a huge drag.

When I fist came to ‘On Faith’ I was expecting discussions about everything possible. I thought I’d find a subgroup into my interests specifically, discussions about the universe, its source, how it works, how we work in it. The role that philosophy, science, medicine, and evolution play in having Faith. Not that long ago, medicine separated the Spiritual from the physical. What would it be like to join the two again? How does your definiton of God or sourc change as you learn new things about the world and have different experiences?

My Uncensored thoughts on the author's question.

I think I’m always living in active partnership with God, I just don’t always know it. When I am conscious of the relationship I can do the following.

I can forgive and move on
I can give up the need for control
I can sense my ego
I can choose instead of react.
If I can do the above then I don't live in fear.

I’m on board with this experiment and promise the following.

I will walk my talk and not respond to button pushing comments.
I will endeavor not to push buttons
I will give as uncensored response as possible
I will respond to the monthly questions with my own interpretations
I will honour & respect the interpretation of others
I will acknowledge with gratitude those who do the same.

HIGH FIVE me if you’re in.

I have Faith in the Laws of Thermodynamics, Organic Evolution, the Atomic Theory, etc.

I also have Faith in my belief that Nobody, Nohow actually knows God, or can speak for God, or even really knows if there is a "God".

"Faith is hope gone insane."
Sam Singleton Atheist Evangelist

religion (noun) the belief in or worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods. (from the American Heritage Dictionary)

You believe in god, therefore, like it or not, you are a religious person. I think exploring your beliefs in any form you choose is just fine--go ahead. But I think you might be starting from a false premise to assume that what you are doing is separating "faith" from religion. In doing so, I can't help but think that you are rejecting traditional beliefs that would merit something more of your attention than this contemptuous dismissal of "books and tradition".

Organized religion is nothing more than a vehicle for the intolerant to claim divine justification for their hatreds.

Wow - the comments I've read show a desperate need for a civil conversation about this issue. In my opinion - and that's all any of us can offer is our own opinions - religion is the set of dogmatic rules designed to tie people to a specific power structure. Faith is an individual's set of beliefs surrounding the unseen and unprovable. They are entirely two separate things, and the human race would be a saner, healthier group if more of us realized this instead of taking the position of the need to squash, silence, or even kill those who have a different set of beliefs, or those who choose to use a different religion's dogma to organize and form their beliefs.

In the same way that loyalty to a political party can cause people to ignore things that need to be thought more deeply about or fixed, loyalty to a religion can cause people to ignore things that need to be thought more deeply about or fixed. Most people have by now read of the pope's comment about protecting the "good of the universal church" by not dealing with child molesters. That is entirely about religion - and completely devoid of spirituality and faith.

..."Seek and your shall find..."The Living God, "YOu must take a leap of faith first!

..."Many O'Lord My God..."ARE THE WONDERS YOU HAVE DONE! ---Psalm

Thank you barferio and qrs. Martha, just stick with your little politically correct NPR Sunday program for all the people who seem to need what you need. I'll stay here on earth and think about what it would be like if we didn't have concepts like religion and "faith" in a "great whatever" Really, Martha? The great whatever? Whatever.

Martha Woodroof

You wrote, " What I think is that a) God is intrinsically un-getable"

Yet, you also wrote, "I make no claim to wisdom of any kind about God, only to experience with God."

God cannot be "un-getable" if one can "experience" God, this is not to say that we can "get" God so that we can then put God in a "box" but that we can "know" that God Is.

You also wrote, "But we have all most likely decided something about God."

I would say, if not all than probably most, and it seems as if a lot of these have made their decisions concerning God based on what others have said about God.

This, for the most part, has to be the starting point, so to speak, for us humans but it does not have to be the "all".

You then wrote, "The great Whatever is only what the great Whatever is, not what our parents, pundits, preachers or priests say It is."

The thing about this statement is that you are putting God in a "box" whether you realize it or not and the reason that I say this is that my second grade teacher taught me, and not only me, that GOD IS LOVE and even tho at the time, I could not imagine or conceive of this as being true when God came into my heart, I "knew" that it was not only true but quite literal.

You then wrote, "And I challenge us to do this exploration fearlessly, with uncensored curiosity and open-mindedness."

Then " Civility and respect are the only criteria for participation. This means no talk of burning in hell or scholarly howls of derision."

If it is to be "uncensored" than it should be uncensored not except for.

You also wrote, "Is it possible to have an open, useful and civil online conversation about faith, not religion? We shall see."

Putting God into any kind of "box" including, but not limited to, saying that God is "unknowable" is to stifle a truly open conversation.

One need not "believe" what another says but unless one "listens" to what another has to say, how can one have any kind of "conversation", open or otherwise?

I truly believe that the biggest "surprise" from God will be equally to those that do not believe in God and to those that believe in God and seem to think that they know "everything" about God.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"My God is better than your God" - "If you don't believe exactly as our church teaches, then you are going straight to hell" - and more religious group beliefs such as these are major turn-offs to any thinking person.

Preferred - "The best sermons are lived, not preached" - an old cowboy saying. I know atheists who do more to help the needy than many so-called Christians do. I know agnostics and those who claim no religious beliefs who volunteer many hours to help those in need. There are many like me who were raised to go to church weekly, sing in the choir, teach Sunday School and now have not attended a service in years but help others, no matter their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

Nowhere in the Bible have I found that a person has to be within four wall of a religious entity to worship. Nowhere in the Bible is there a mention of a specific religious entity - not Presbyterian, Methodist, Catholic, Baptist or any other.

I prefer to base my beliefs on the Native American "religion" of being in tune with nature and having respect for all living things - be they animal, plant or human.

mikepost1

You wrote, "The first problem is that faith and religion are synonyms... they have the same or similar meaning; and they are so closely connected in peoples minds that one suggests the other."

First off, they are not synonymous.

They may be "closely connected" even mean the exact same thing to some but that is not true for all.

One may even find that their faith is hidden, so to speak, within a religion but this does not and should not mean that someone should abandon their faith.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

You are trying to make something out of nothing. "People of faith" is absolutely meaningless. Faith in what - GM, public schools, the pilot flying the plane I'm on? Your equivalence of "God" with "Whatever" is a cop out. Either you believe in "God" the way some religion or your parents or a paper or book you read describes "God" or you don't have "faith." You cannot live "in partnership with God" if you do not have beliefs (and faith) in some "relatives, nature and modus operandi" of God's that you've derived from somewhere. So all in all, I think you're a phony. You don't know what you're talking about - not because you are not a preacher or a scholar - and not because you're "uppity." You're just a wannabe and it's hard to believe that the Washington Post has given you this outlet. On second thought, I can believe it - that the Post has given any credence to your baloney - because On Faith is the "trash bag" of this newspaper. Any time there's a ludicrous slant on a current event such that the opportunity exists for one of the bloggers to posit an opinion that will draw the ignorant out from under their rocks, then it goes in the On Faith section. Do us all a favor and go away.

Mike, faith and religion are NOT the same, even tho' the classic evangelical query "do you have faith?" is often understood (and possibly meant) as "do you believe the right things?". Faith is essentially trust, and it can be trust that there will be a life after death, or it can be trust that your colleague will assist you in the way she promised, to complete a project for work.
Religion is the abstract concept usually involving one or more gods, and within that concept there are multiple belief systems. The confusion comes because each of those belief systems is convinced, to a greater or lesser extent, that it is the only true expression of religion.

Mike, faith and religion are NOT the same, even tho' the classic evangelical query "do you have faith?" is often understood (and possibly meant) as "do you believe the right things?". Faith is essentially trust, and it can be trust that there will be a life after death, or it can be trust that your colleague will assist you in the way she promised, to complete a project for work.
Religion is the abstract concept usually involving one or more gods, and within that concept there are multiple belief systems. The confusion comes because each of those belief systems is convinced, to a greater or lesser extent, that it is the only true expression of religion.

No man is an island. The "the great Whatever" is love. The notion that authentic faith is separable from community and continuity is sophomoric (and, quite literally, most prevalent among sophomores).

Just as a cigarette is a "nicotine delivery system", religion is a faith delivery system.

I really can't see separating the two as you seem to wish.

I do take your point. As an atheist I have nothing much to say about people having faith in gods. I think it's silly and childlike, but I no doubt have such things other areas myself, so the infantile nature of faith itself is nothing I complain about. Not much anyway.

But religion now. Religion is political, it seeks power, it seeks to protect itself against non-believers and wrong-believers by means of government power.

I don't trust religion any more than I trust the government, and I find it to be equally evil when it comes to taking away my liberties and freedoms.

The first problem is that faith and religion are synonyms... they have the same or similar meaning; and they are so closely connected in peoples minds that one suggests the other.