Cassie123 writes:
"(see examples of countries that attempted to obtain that utopian society - Soviet Union etc -- many of which, by the way, began with somewhat good intentions)."
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The Soviet Union was only begun with somewhat good intentions by one of the top 3 revolutionaries, and he was shot. Get real.

I can point to a number of governments who attempt to care for the poor and needy, and make sure that they aren't trampled by the legal and economic systems under which they live. The US, Canada, the UK, Sweden, the Netherlands, Denmark, Iceland...

I don't see these systems attempting any kind of "utopia" (the etymology of the very name explains why) - but you don't have to aim at utopia when aiming for social justice.

Some detractors here (and other places) mistakenly try to make social justice equivalent to some form of economic equality, which is silly. It's never represented "equality" - because things aren't equal. People aren't equal in that kind of simplistic sense - that nice dramatic tension is demonstrated in the US Declaration of Independence, which starts out with the (simplistically) absurd statement that "All men are created equal".

There was one post on here that I agreed with...they said that the problem of the financial situation was the people not necessarily just Wall Street.

Unfortunately, people are selfish. That will not change. Even those who claim to be religious can be selfish and take advantage of others, as many people on this post are all too happy to point out :). As a Christian, I am saddened by that, but I do not shy way from the truth. No matter how much government regulation is imposed -- it will not change anything as long as people are involved. Human nature is inherently sinful. People's attitudes need to change. People need to exhibit good character and love for those around them. The only way to do this is through Jesus.

I am not necessarily using the above as an excuse against government regulation but it is just an observation.

I think that these protests outside the shareholder meetings are all good and well -- it lets these CEOs know that people are unhappy with how they are treating those under them.

As far as government regulation and "social justice" -- I have voiced my concern on this subject before here. Who defines social justice? Who sets the new "moral code" that we are all to follow? Congress? -- who cater to special interest groups (unions, etc.) and have more scandels than I can even number in just 1 week? I have a problem with that! Social justice sounds nice on the surface, but in reality it is impossible to practice without the leaders trampling on those below them. (see examples of countries that attempted to obtain that utopian society - Soviet Union etc -- many of which, by the way, began with somewhat good intentions).

The fact is that the government (both democrat and republican) contributed to the economic meltdown along with the banks. And what gets me is that the government is investigating the banks for these meltdowns...this is just a waste of time allowing congressmen to try to obtain better policital footing..I am not fooled. For example, the government wanted everyone to have the ability to own a home (which is a wonderful thing to desire...but dangerous to just go out and get). Because of this belief they willing allowed these risky mortgages and surprise surprise...people who shouldn't have been able to get loans for homes (because in reality they couldn't afford them were given these loans). Of course, I also think there is some personal responsibility here on those folks as well.

Bottom line: government regulation, if any, should be light...and carefully considered.

Feel free to discount John's message, Yeal9. Just don't think that you can "disprove" Christ's divinity, any more than I can "prove" his divinity.

Iupur,

There are two types of Christianity. One based on "good works" to attain salvation, in which Catholicism belongs, and another which teaches that good works are results of a salvation experience which is a GIFT from God alone. The former is a false kind of Christianity where Hitler (a Catholic) belongs. .

False religions are based on the idea that man can save himself by doing or following a set of belief system. What it actually does is building a SELF-RIGHTEOUS mentality. Catholicism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, etc all belong to this category.

With or without laws that punishes lying, true Christians don't lie. With or without a law that requires you to help the poor, true Christians help the poor.

False religion's kind of social justice is based on COERCION. Most societies that are ruled by dictators either practices Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. In societies where they practice false religions, you often hear the term "social justice" but you don't often see them.

I also would like to add that true Christians are scientific people. I believe that short selling and derivatives should be banned coz they don't follow the natural laws of science. In other words, it's a form of magic or trickery. Those who know the trick profits to the disadvantage of those who play fairly.

Goldman Sachs is guilty of trickery.

http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/jdb026.html

One of the major Christian delusions is that the simple preacher man aka Jesus is/was somehow "god, incarnate" ("Christ is the Word made flesh")!!!

John 1:1-18 where you find most of this incarnation mumbo-jumbo only appears in this passage making it a single attestation. Most contemporary historic Jesus and NT exegetes have concluded that the passage is simply more embellishment by the "great embellisher" John (who btw was not the Apostle John)- See Father Raymond Brown's epic 800+ page book, An Introduction to the New Testament for added information.

And before calling up Gabriel (to defend your delusions) who supposedly talked to Mary about her "virgin" birth of the holy spirit's incarnate one, check out

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/026_Jesus_Virginally_Conceived

There are actually more references in the NT noting Joseph as JC's father!!!!

IgnorantHillbilly writes:
"What a bunch of socialist hogwash. The only faith this author is talking about is faith in the Almighty State, which is his god. He is certainly not talking about biblical Christianity. "
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Not quite. He is speaking of using a (fallible) government working with the will of the people who empower it to enforce some Christian principles.
That's not to say that it's a good idea or not (personally, I see no problem in moving some of "caveat emptor" into regulation as with customer fraud laws, etc).

Still, it's pretty clear that Christ feels that one of a government's responsibilities is some level of "social justice" (see Eze 22:6-7 for one example of many - and since Christ is the Word made flesh, we cannot ignore that the Old Testament is part of Christ's message).

mhr614 writes:

"In the 20th century several governments emerged with the avowed aim of bringing social justice and equality to their citizens. Among them were the Soviet Union, Mao's China, Cambodia, North Korea, East Germany and the entire Soviet bloc of eastern Europe."

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You seem to, somehow, ignore the word "avowed". I challenge you to find someone who actually believes that that was the real goal of any of those regimes.

The hilarious thing here is that you pick governments that were actually antithetical to the concept of social justice, then, somehow, try to turn them into examples.

Better picks might be just about any first-world government in the world right now except for the US with strong social programs - and, of course, the US when it comes to Social Security/Medicare. Then, at least, you can make comparisons based on something resembling reality.

What a bunch of socialist hogwash. The only faith this author is talking about is faith in the Almighty State, which is his god. He is certainly not talking about biblical Christianity.

He doesn’t say a word about the government facilitating and demanding, through Freddie and Fannie, that subprime loans be made and be implicitly guaranteed by the government; he doesn’t say a word about home buyers signing up for loans they could not possibly pay back; he doesn’t say a word about conservative Republicans not voting for TARP but rather wanting Goldman Sachs, AIG, Morgan Stanley, et al to founder for their cupidity. Wells Fargo was not deeply involved in the subprime mortgage meltdown yet this is one of the targets of his ire.

Why is it that Catholic Central and South America, including Mexico, are impoverished while North America has known great bounties? Spain regulated and invested much more in her colonies than England ever did. According to this social justice “economist” that should have alleviated poverty, not fueled it. Yet the exact opposite happened. Could it be that Conservative Protestant Christianity, the religion of our forefathers, the religion of self-reliance and personal responsibility, the religion of biblical faith, is the greatest capital of all?

The flaw in our current private enterprise system is intrinsic.

- Corporations are legally required to act in ways that maximize value for its shareholders.
- When community good rubs up against corporate interest, the corporation sides with itself and is frequently protected by law.

This, BTW, is the moral dynamic of the sociopath.

Social Justice, like all utopian schemes, can only lead to Communism or Fascism.

You get what you get. I'm happy with what I don't have.

to Spiderman, and those agreeing with him: the quality of life for most people, and especially working people in western Europe, Australia, and Canada is actually higher than in the US, where they don't blindly worship out of control capitalism.

Dear Spidermean,
Firstly I really fail to see what you are refering to in terms of "fallacy" do you deny that there are right wing elements to christianity? Or that these elements have been used in the past by to justify genocide, murder etc? I'm sure there are some good christians out there, but you can't deny the half of the equation.

Secondly the fact that you are are mentioning cambodia/vietnam etc and Mao proves that you missed the point of my post, to be completely unambiguous, I hate China, communism and the current chinese govt etc (I myself am chinese) and I think that they are bullies and dictators, but as pointed out in my post

"any time anyone says that they believe companies shouldn't be able to rip people off, or that they support women's rights, or gay right, or poor people earning enough money to live on, and suddenly morons like you whine about communism"

ie just because I think wall street should be regulated to stop looting, or that people should be able to earn a decent living wage etc does not mean that I worship Karl Marx, and that to compare us to commies is as unfair as for me to call you guys Nazis or KKK members or terrorists etc so stop calling us "socialist" as it amounts to nothing more than childish name calling,

Finally as for "true christianity" I'd really love for one of you guys to give me a rational explanation of what that means, I mean I'm sure Hitler thought he was a "real christian" when he said "I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." I mean anytime any christian person or group does anything reprehensible there is always someone who says "they're not real christians" well, you know if you define anytime anyone does anything good as a "real christian" and anytime anyone does anything bad as "not a real christian" then no matter what happens, no matter how many rapes and murders and mass murders and beatings etc happen in the name of christianity, all good acts no matter how few will be done by "real christians" and all bad acts, no matter how numerous and terrible will be done by people who are not "real christians"
I'm not blaming christians solely as I notice Muslims do the same thing "i.e. terrorists are not real muslims" but it seems like nothing but a rhetorical device used to evade responsibilty

a propos of why Christians should denounce The FED and actively work to have it closed down immediately, and money creation returned to the Treasury.

see : http://www.save-a-patriot.org/files/view/whofed.html

Below, the opening paragraph from this webpage which is then followed by specific charts linking all the private family banks with ownership in the Fed, and then charts of companies they own and companies they control as directors etc. This was the result of a House investigation of Banking in the USA..

Federal Reserve Directors: A Study of Corporate and Banking Influence
Published 1976

Chart 1 reveals the linear connection between the Rothschilds and the Bank of England, and the London banking houses which ultimately control the Federal Reserve Banks through their stock holdings of bank stock and their subsidiary firms in New York. The two principal Rothschild representatives in New York, J. P. Morgan Co., and Kuhn,Loeb & Co. were the firms which set up the Jekyll Island Conference at which the Federal Reserve Act was drafted, who directed the subsequent successful campaign to have the plan enacted into law by Congress, and who purchased the controlling amounts of stock in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York in 1914. These firms had their principal officers appointed to the Federal Reserve Board of Governors and the Federal Advisory Council in 1914. In 1914 a few families (blood or business related) owning controlling stock in existing banks (such as in New York City) caused those banks to purchase controlling shares in the Federal Reserve regional banks.

Examination of the charts and text in the House Banking Committee Staff Report of August, 1976 and the current stockholders list of the 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks show this same family control.

@SkipSailing28
Good on ya, guv'na.

I too, find it interesting that many churches and/or groups of churches seem to follow vain pursuits such as what you described.

Vanity in itself is something, like avarice, lust, sloth, etc. that is unfortunately human in nature. Christianity and other religions try to tame humanity's imperfections through a moral order, established by God, and those who truly adhere to those teachings are generally more productive in society and tend to care more for the common individual.

It is a tragedy in this society, with a breakdown of faith at its underpinnings, that many people tend to view things in moral gray areas that, with the help of their bent compass, lend themselves more towards amorality. I must clearly state that those who do not practice religion are not precluded from morality, but those who "have no use for God" tend towards seeing themselves as the arbiters of their own existence; Removed from judgment, but for the laws of man and perhaps some "self-reasoned" morality ground in the secular world.

Conversely, there are those who claim God and His blessings, but do nothing deserving of them. They do not attempt good works, nor charity, even in the home. They bend and break rules and law, to turn and ask God's forgiveness. Forgiven their sins, they turn to break and bend once more.

Both breeds are weak of will, and I self-reflect that I too have much to learn and aspire to in efforts to aid my fellow man and serve God and His will.

Those who deny Natural law, or God's law, that all men are equal and have unalienable rights that cannot be taken from them by men or governments, are those who prey on the weak, who stymie the efforts of others to better themselves, and fervently work to make individuals doubt their potential and thus not succeed. Let no one tell you that you are worthless, and take no quarter from those who have no faith in humanity to better itself.

"As for Arizona's immigration law, "show us your papers" rings of Nazi Germany's "show us your papers". "

This is what happens when a significant number of people don't follow the law. It will only worsen if people come here wothout papers. Whoever thought this idiot that applying the law is unlawful?

I think it's hilarious how John Ensign was asking questions about Goldmans ethical practices when he's under and ethics investigation.

As for Arizona's immigration law, "show us your papers" rings of Nazi Germany's "show us your papers".

Zeig Heil GOP! Goodbye Republitards.

Iupur,

When you mix fallacy with facts, it's called garbage. You spew a lot of garbage and I think it will tire me to show you how to segregate them.

You should have been in Cambodia or Vietnam or Mao's China decades back to tell them that their communistic social justice was just fine.

The garbage you throw at Christianity is not accurate coz you don't even know what is true Christianity.

Without enforcement actions, new laws and regulations are meaningless.

If existing laws and regulations had been enforced over the past decade, the gambling casino called Wall Street wouldn't have developed it's trillion dollar capacity to make mistakes.

If nobody is stopping them, they will keep on gambling away other people's money...even if you put new stronger laws in place.

Dear mhr61
Thank you for such an excellent display of the histrionics of the right which are perpetually used to excuse corruption and corporate looting, I mean honestly, any time anyone says that they believe companies shouldn't be able to rip peaople off, or that they support women's rights, or gay right, or poor people earning enough money to live on, and suddenly morons like you whine about communism, I mean honestly It's like hearing Judd Greg (or any other republican) whine about how us "liberals" want to destroy America and how we're against all corporations and all business, just because we want to reign in sleaze-bags on wall street, and FYI if you knew anything about history, you would know that A)Whining about liberals being commies was exactly what McCarthism, and we all know that didn't end well and B)right wing 'utopian social engineers" have done a heck of a lot more damage to the world than left wing ones, or were you not paying attention in history when they were teaching about WWII, the KKK and segregation, the crusades, people being burned and hacked to death in Africa today because of Christianity/Islam/Native african religions/sexism/Homophobia, Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism, and all of the problems in the Middle east, all of these problems are resultant of the histrionics of the right, and no serious commenter on the left is childish and stupid enough to call you NAZIs or terrorists, so why don't you spend at least 5 second of serious thought into your next post.

Most catholic countries are liberal democrats and they end up poor, and even killing each other fighting which ideology should they follow.

The intentions are good but you don't trust a blind person with good intentions to show you your way home, do you?

Just ban short selling and revert back to the laws instituted to prevent the Great Depression in the 1930s from happening again.

NO need for Catholic faith inputs coz most likely, they only cause more trouble. Stupidity only breeds stupidity.

"Liberal Democrats have run most of the urban centers of the US for decades and we know how that experiment has worked."

Not true. Donald Trump's book "The Art of the Deal" shows how liberal Democrats are a bunch of idiots.

"You will not hear one "faith" group condemn another"

Maybe you never heard of me.

With all due respect, I don't see the "prosperity Gospel" folks otu there crusading against Wall Street abuses. The faith community is as corrupt (but no more so) as any other. There is one big difference. You will not hear one "faith" group condemn another, no matter how immoral the behavior. True in Islam. True in Christianity.

In the 20th century several governments emerged with the avowed aim of bringing social justice and equality to their citizens. Among them were the Soviet Union, Mao's China, Cambodia, North Korea, East Germany and the entire Soviet bloc of eastern Europe. The experiment did not work out well. Liberal Democrats have run most of the urban centers of the US for decades and we know how that experiment has worked. Most Americans are very suspicious of utopian social engineers. With good reason.

While true Christians believe that lying will send them to hell, what is stopping the idiotic atheists from lying just to profit?

When God said that true Christians will inherit the earth, it means just that. We don't even have to try coz it will just fall on our lap whether we like it or not.

You guys should be very glad that you're still breathing coz that's the only line that keeps you from burning in eternity.

The only way you can refute that is if you be able to make brains out of soil and water. God is real idiots.

There was that social psychology study recently which showed that people of faith were actually more likely to cheat than non-believers. Apparently they felt their God would look the other way, what with them being so holy and all. Expecting religion to be a force for discouraging unethical and criminal behavior is wishful thinking. It only encourages them.

POSTED BY: DAVEHARRIS

This is the basis of Prosperity Christianity that is so popular in the US. Wealth is a sign of God's grace. All you have to do is ask for wealth with a faithful heart.

If you cheat someone and make a lot of money obviously God smiled on your actions because the money you made shows God loves you. It's a neat trick and one that allows all manner of immoral behavior.

Excuse me but faith has no place in capitalism or financial regulation. Yes, we need some new regulations on deriviates and too big to fail, but I wonder what the good man thinks of the SEC lawyers who were streaming porn instead of enforcing the regs. already on the books? Many of them are still on the job. Are they are the ones who are supposed to protect us? Give me a break!! The problem isn't markets; the problem is people.

Banning short selling and derivatives will solve all these problems. You invest on a company and not bet and hope that the company would fail so one would profit.

It defies logic to invest on something so that your child would fail in school and then celebrates when it happens.

THIS IS MADNESS. IT'S SO REFRESHING THAT THESE MADMEN WERE CAUGHT. Maybe we should be allowed to bet if these people will go to jail or not. Pure madness.

Social justice and Wall Street is an oxymoron. It is beyond obvious that the small guy has no chance and NO MATTER what you do Wall Street will screw you out of your money. You can short it long it hedge it or what ever what and you will never win. Social Justice? What a stupid question.

And where is the AARP? Hiding out in another buffet line in Washington while the seniors that support them are getting hosed on their savings by the banks and the Federal Reserve?

Savers are being taxed to support the profits of banks and reduce the interest on the federal; debt, while debtors, speculators on Wall Street and banks reel in the $$.

Evolution's Survival of the Fittest doctrine may have influenced these Goldman Sachs executives' behavior. Officailly, Catholicsim, as a false religion, supports Darwinian Evolution. Aside from evolution, it is involved in a grand cycle of poverty.

THE CATHOLIC CYCLE

In one third world country where population explosion has become a major problem, Catholic chapels or centers offer free operation to untie the fallopian tubes of mothers after indoctrinating them that artificial contraception is a SIN.

This devilish Church invent their own doctrines so parents would produce more children despite their abject poverty. With more extra children, they are forced to raise them with no proper education and decent meals and most of all, no future.

They then teach these poor people that their government is the cause of their poverty due to corruption but lo and behold those same government personnel are usually "devout catholics".

Some revolt (with the church's help of course) which cause more poverty and this has become a "CATHOLIC CYCLE" which I presume is routinely duplicated around the world.

To escape poverty, many go abroad adding more economic pressure to their countries of destination.

Catholic countries not only over populate, they produce extortionist rebels too. Had you wondered why there are no marxist rebels in Islamic countries but there are so many in catholic countries? It's because many of their priests support that ideology. They breed fast and then kill each other fast too. WHAT A CYCLE.

There are many things this church does which is outside our scope of detection. The devil could be using a much bigger cycle that is harder to detect. Consciously or unconsciously, all catholics is part of that grand cycle.

This church teaches that poverty is blessed but when they become truly poor, then comes the blame game. Blaming other people except themselves.

We humans are limited by ourselves. In other words we are selfish by nature and we indeed should be selfish. We have to preserve ourselves at any cost. We could kill some one before he kills us. That is self defense. The U.S has used this method to launch wars against other countries in recent times. No one considers this unjust but as a right of a country to secure its people. It is true one can gain material wealth through honest means. That rarely happens. In a democratic society like ours with our own legal system to enforce so called justice many will adulterate our system to advance themselves. That is what is happening right now. The Congress may revise our laws to prevent these short cuts to wealth, human beings being selfish will bypass them. In other words there will be always social injustice. Yes, Jesus said the poor are always with you. So are the rich! No other way!

John Gehring is Director of Communications for Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good. This "non-profit"'s salaries/yr are in the range of $700,000/yr paid from donations in the range of $1 million/yr.

The only specific annual salary listed on the IRS Form 990 is the $110,000 that the executive director makes. So where is the other ~$600,000/yr going ??

From www.guidestar.org:

"Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good promotes awareness of Catholic Social Teaching and its core values of justice, dignity and the common good to Catholics, the media and Americans of all faith."

Is there common good and justice being practiced when such high salaries are being paid for apparently little work??

Is there a moral case to be made for the reform of "non-profits"??

This is ridiculous.
The artice says don't "gamble on hunger." I assume that means farmers should't buy hedges against prices dropping and food distribution companies shouldn't hedge against prices sky rocketing. These hedges keep farmers and distributors in business to fight again another year, when weather or markets turn against them suddenly. Neither group could do that if financial investors weren't willing to be their counterparties on hedges.

Likewise, pining for your mortgage to be held by the S & L down the block may sound quaint and comforting, but its an ethical loser. If the S & L couldn't sell your mortgage, it couldn't make more loans to others until you repaid your mortgage. Your philosophy is that you've got your mortgage so screw everyone else looking for a mortgage after you get yours.

Derivatives are useful instruments that allow people who make long-term commitments of large amounts of capital to shift risk to others who are willing to accept the risks.

By all means, lets examine the system and see where it broke down (as it obviously did), but pius complaints about people who make the financial markets run is sickening and ethically reprehensible, which you can easily determine by looking at the health and education levels of countries that have working financial markets compared to those that don't.

As a Catholic I find some of Mr Gehring's essay troubling.

First, I wonder what is meant by the phrase "social justice". I learned about "equal justice" during civics courses in school. But social justice needs to be defined.

I don't doubt the church's desire to do good mind you, but I do question the method here. To me the church has always faced the challenge of convincing humans that avarice is sin. As I read the essay I wonder if the church is trying to outlaw greed. That's a vain pursuit.

I think that the concept of "helping distressed homeowners refinance troubled mortgages. " while a laudable goal is doomed to failure. How many of these folks are in over their heads because they would not have qualified in a more rational lending environment?

that said, I think the concept of using the investments owned by the church as leverage with banks makes good sense. Finding an institution that meets the moral standards of the church doesn't seem impossible.

And like a lot of Americans I've seen the emerging "two tier" banking system. As my beloved and I launch a business the bank that we've relied on for personal checking just isn't interested. Another local bank, however is eager to fill the niche. And I'm seeing that more and more in my very depressed part of the country.

Just a few thoughts.

Many faith based organizations managed to ignore the teaching of treating the least of their brothers well during the health care debate. The financial reform debate will split down the same political lines, with the religious conservatives being lead by the nose into some obscure rational for supporting Goldman Sachs.

Well . . . Whoop-de-do.

A Catholic viewpoint I can support. In other words, it's not a holdover from the Dark Ages.

I agree with WMarkW. Our parents bought our family rowhouse using our local Savings and Loan and we paid them weekly. Every Monday my parents would send me to the S&L with our mortgage payment. We were treated respectfully and personally. Today few at our local Bank of America even recognize our faces. Everything we need from them is subject to office fees. So we are not only paying them monthly account management fees, we are also paying for office supplies and the salaries of their employees.
We get zero interest on our savings. In fact, we withdrew our savings from BofA and put them in our Credit Union. When questioning the BofA manager about the lack of interest on our savings, she gave us a take it of leave it attitude.
These banks and finance businesses acrossed America don't give a rat's patootie about their customers. They only care about executive pay, bonuses and fantastic perks. They even tried several times to run our Credit Unions out of business because they are so greedy.
I wish the Faith industry would shut up about gays, abortions and sin, and start opening their prayerful mouths about the gross injustice of American Corporate greed. By that is just wishful thinking on my part.

There was that social psychology study recently which showed that people of faith were actually more likely to cheat than non-believers. Apparently they felt their God would look the other way, what with them being so holy and all. Expecting religion to be a force for discouraging unethical and criminal behavior is wishful thinking. It only encourages them.

There are enough people involved in this, that it seems you could form your own Credit Union For The Common Good; a non-profit organization that does nothing but old-fashioned banking and traditional fixed-rate mortgages, so people don't have to hold their checking accounts with the gamblers.