Khan and his obfuscating, half-truth-telling, misdirecting, dissembling coreligionists are bald-faced liars.

The only standing promises of any relevance to Christians (and other non-Muslims) are those to rape, enslave, and butcher any who refuse the "invitation" to Islam:

"the Messenger of Allah . . . would say: 'Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war. . . . When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. . . . Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. . . . If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them . . .'" (Muslim Book 19, Number 4294).

"fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) . . . " (Qur’an 9:5).

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Qur'an 9:29).

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter . . . " (Qur'an 5:33). [Ibn Kathir says of this verse: "'Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil." So, Muhammad requires execution, crucifixion, or cutting off hands and feet from opposite sides for "disbelief."]

"Allah's Apostle said: 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle . . . '" (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24).

"It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise" (Qur'an 8:67).

"Allah’s Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror'" (Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220).

And that's only a sampling.

I have to disagree with your comment "I think the capacity to seek good and do good inheres in all of us." I believe man is born with a sin nature, not an inherent good one. An example: you don't have to teach a child to be bad -- if left to his own devices, he would terrorize his preschool. You have to TEACH him to be GOOD. We are inherently evil by human nature. Doing good is hard work, because it goes against what is "easy."

"I do think that we have a shared interest in humanity. That is, perhaps, the most important thing."
Posted by: Farnaz1Mansouri1 | January 5, 2010 12:45 AM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Kudos to Farnaz!

I will admit I know little about Iran. What I read in the newspapers hardly makes me knowledgable about any country.

But our common interest in HUMANITY is the most valuable tiny contribution we can make.

Abhab1:

Farnaz;
In reply to your inquiry of sometime ago I used to sign under the name Ibrahim Mahfouz.
-----------------------------
Hi Abhab,

I don't recall my having asked the question, but will say you have excellent taste in reading!

Farnaz

Farnaz1Mansouri1:

You mentioned your posts on some web sites, I never heard of. I don't have time to surf through other web sites you seem to use nor do I have that kind of emotional engagement you seem to have.

I have been very fortunate or blessed that I came to know many Jews, Christians, Hindus, or Muslims who are kind hearted and who deeply care about humanity. There are good and bad people everywhere.

MY BOTTOM LINE IS: TREAT FELLOW HUMANS AS HUMAN BEINGS. The life of a Jewish child is as precious as the life of a Hindu, Christian, or a Muslim child.
-----------------------------------
I don't know what web sites you're referring to...?

As for emotional engagement, I think, in part, that depends on what one has seen and/or experienced. I do know that these discussions are not coffee talk for me, that language can engender piece or genocide.

The Rwandan genocide was conducted by radio.

Time is at a premium, I think, for all of us. However, I can't go through life relying on the heavily interested media, with transnational interests, which no longer even makes a pretends to report "the news."

Take Iran, which is what the Brits are dying to do. Follow the money straight to British Petroleum, which has gotten away with murder right here on American soil.

Notice the trajectory. First foment discord. (Young Iranians may die, but no Brits or Americans.) This, we could not do in Iraq, so we had to rely exclusively on contact with certain generals, political malcontents so that we could get the oil money, honey.

Didn't work, so next came boycotts. Didn't work so next came WMDs. No cooperation? Then Invadestan.

In Iran, we have been more "fortunate." We can agitate on the streets and make contact with some progressives. And the WMDs....
Boycotts. Don't work? Only starve Iranians? Gee. Invadestan.

Of course, many of your co-religionists, and some Christian psychos who don't read the Israeli newspapers online in English, think Israel (the bogeyman) is behind this.
It's not. The Jerusalem Post was the only newspaper to report honestly on the Iranian elections.

I loathe Nejad. Loathe him. However, he is the first secular leader to attend honestly to the poor. He is beloved by many, many people. He is a purist, a simple Islamist lunatic. He longs for a world in which his brand of Islam is adhered to. He is not corrupt and is incorruptible, unlike the Supreme Leader who has millions socked away in foreign banks.

Before we let the Brits talk us into Iranistan, we might consider some of this. Nejad is not Saddaam Hussein.

What price oil? What price media sites?

------------------------
Find any of what I've just written in an American newspaper? I doubt it....

NOne of us has time, but the time we do have will be reduced by the knowledge we do not have and the actions we do not take.

I do think that we have a shared interest in humanity. That is, perhaps, the most important thing.

Zebra claims:
"ABHAB claims that Western Colonialism lasted only a few decades."
Below are my exact words:
"Most of western colonialism to the Arab lands had not exceeded 3 decades, during which the French and British had opened it to the rest of the world, after it was held prisoner within the confines of an oppressive and ignorant Turkish Caliphate domination curtain for over 400 years."
This is an excellent example of how a handicapped mind processes information.

What a joke!

"Muslims and Christians together constitute over 50 percent of the world. If they lived in peace, we would be half way to world peace". What about Buddhists and Hindus?

The other 50% already know how to live in peace with other religions. It is the SUPREMACIST ideas underlying Islam and Christianity that is the source of the problems.

Every religious conflict has muslims or christians fighting on one side or both.

This is more of the same desperate attempts by muslims to deny the obvious and try to act like a "religion o' peace".

All this does is provide cover for the islamic terrorists.

zebra4

You wrote, "Farnaz: You and I are in agreement on the concerns for HUMANITY, which is why the following is a good reading:"

No one can change the "past" whether it is one's own, someone else's or groups of others.

No one can live anyone else's life except for their own.

Many that dwell on the "wrongs" of the "past" justify their own "wrong" of the present and the cycle just goes on and on and on, does it not?

Pointing out "other's" wrong whether in the past or in the present reminds me of something attributed to Jesus, "Why look for the speck in your brother's eye when there is a beam in your own?"

I thank God that God has a Plan and that God is our Judge and not our fellow human beings.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Farnaz1Mansouri1

You wrote, "It was one thing when religionists ran around with spears and the like. Now, however, they run around with legislation, bombs, and tanks.

What, in 2010, is wrong with this picture."

What is wrong with "this picture" is that it is not only "religionists", as you put it, but also "non-religionists".

By "non-religionists", I mean all of those that are not covered by your banner of "religionists".

Man's inhumanity to man is not limited to "everyone else but me and my kind" but seems to be pretty much "inclusive".

Spewing out hatred and bigotry toward "others" is most definitely not limited to those that believe in God or some kind of "higher power" as witnessed by the comments that appear on these postings.

As I have said, God looks at the person, not the "label".

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Hmmm, "zebra4" continues to comment !! Remember, this is an anonymous blog and imposters abound.

And "zebra4" whoever he/she is continues to forget the examples set by the followers of Judaism for their Chrisian and Muslim colonialists when it comes to treatment/conversion of non-believers:

To wit:

Biblical/Torah Detailed Atrocities

Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.

Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)

Joshua:

Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.

Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."

Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]
TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.

Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.

Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.

Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon

Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.

1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.

David:

2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.

2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.

2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.

1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.

2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.

2 Chron 25: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.

2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans

TOTAL: That comes to about 1,283,000 mass killings specifically enumerated in the Bible/Torah.

zebra4: "The list is very long."

The logic is indeed strange. If Christians were evil historically, does that mean it gives license to the Muhammadans to be as evil now in the present? Where should the descendants of the 3 million butchered Bengalis (mostly muslims)go to complain about the Mullahs of Pakistan who killed them because they were not Muslim enough? Where should the Shias in Karachi go to complain of the killing on Ashura by the suicide bomber of the Taliban last week because the Taliban consider the Shias as Kaafirs? Where should the Ahmaddiyas of Pakistan go to complain of the many killings they have had to suffer because the Shias and the Sunnis of Pakistan consider the Ahmaddiyas as Kaafirs? They should all understand that all this current insanity and brutality is acceptable because the evil of Christianity list is long?

Zebra asks:
“Was the use of the name Ibrahim Mahfouz to pose as a Muslim to deceive readers?”
This is my name and proud of it. I never claimed to be a Muslim. Victoria kept reminding people that I was not a believer. Many people including myself changed our signature when WAPO clamped down on those who used different names. It is very strange that the striped donkey is the only one of the believers who keeps on trying to discredit me.

ABHAB, who admitted to Farnaz, that he used to post under the name of Ibrahim Mahfouz, claims that Western Colonialism lasted only a few decades. He never read Prof. Marty Martin's (a panelists here)2006 statement:

"I know I'll get hit for suggesting "equivalencies" here, though I am always clear in stating that there is no equivalency between today's radical and extreme Muslims and today's ordinary Christians. But it also must be said that Christians, from the 4th Century to the 18th Century, can match the Muslims one-for-one when it comes to having spread the faith with the sword. Read the history of the Christianization of Europe, and you have to go hunting for that minority of the faithful who spread the faith without the sword, merely by witness and works."

Was the use of the name Ibrahim Mahfouz to pose as a Muslim to deceive readers?

Western Colonialism began nearly 5 centuries ago and is still being practiced today. It may have changed in form but not its goals.

In 1945, the French Air Force bombed several Algerian cities. More than 15,000 men, women, and children were killed.

In 1919, the British General by the name of Dyer ordered his soldiers to shoot unarmed men, women and children at Jallianwala Bagh in Amritsar, India.Several hundred men, women, and children were killed. The British Army kept on shooting untill they ran out of ammunition.

The Spaniards destroyed the civilizations of the Maya,the Inca, and the Aztecs.

The British decimated the Australian aborigines.

The list is very long.

http://markdurie.blogspot.com/2010/01/accentuate-positive-dr-muqtedar-khans.html
.....
The problem with Dr Khan's advice is that when reconciliation is what is needed, sweet talk can be a smokescreen for continued abuse. Dr Khan's advice is at worst a form of emotional blackmail, which attempts to shut down serious critical discourse, for his logic would paint all who attempt a serious critique of the legacy of each faith as inciters of hatred, and 'demonizers'. This is itself a form of demonization, which will stigmatize the victims of interfaith hatred, simply for telling their far from 'positive' stories.
.....

In the light of these considerations, Dr Khan's example of St Catherine's letter is misleading and unfortunate. Dr Khan must surely be aware that scholarly opinion does not regard this document as genuine. It is almost certainly a forgery, created to bolster the security of the Christian monks of the Mount Sinai Monastry. This is why the document no longer exists in its original form: there never was an original letter. In reality the very existence of this document is evidence of the fear under which the monks have lived, as are the impregnable walls of the monastery building itself.
.....

Farnaz1Mansouri1

You wrote, "Islam, like Christianity, believes it is the last word. It believes the Quoran supercedes both NT and Tanakh, corrects the errors in both."

I do not "believe" that the NT "supercedes" the "Tanakh" and you know that because I have written about it before, directly to you.

I have said that the NT is an ongoing unfolding of God's Plan for all of humanity.

The "Tanakh" is about God's choosing and forming the "Chosen People". You neither believe in God nor believe that the Jews are the "Chosen People", so what the "Tanakh" is ultimately about, you dismiss and yet you hoard it.

God is not about "hoarding", God is about "sharing".
.
You also wrote, "Therefore, to you, and to Thomas I say this.
The same argument you make for the NT is that which I make for Tanakh."

I would like to ask, what is the "argument" that I make for the NT?

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, not only is this "spoken of" in Revelation but also in Genesis, "On the seventh day, God Blest, Rested and Made Holy.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

A glaring example of how their Muslim cult has blinded the Arabs in more than way is their obsession with western colonialism. They are never at loss to cite links to such topics as Western Colonialists Holocaust etc. They blame the West for everything they consider evil. Most of western colonialism to the Arab lands had not exceeded 3 decades, during which the French and British had opened it to the rest of the world, after it was held prisoner within the confines of an oppressive and ignorant Turkish Caliphate domination curtain for over 400 years. You never hear them complain about the Turkish subjugation that pushed them back to the Stone Age during the period WHEN the West moved from the Dark Ages to the Industrial Revolution. You never hear them admit, let alone show gratitude, to the infrastructure that the Western colonialists build for them nor the modern institutions that they put in place for them. All you hear is complaints, complaints and more complaints about “the infidel West”. None of the complaints are directed to the ones who deserve it; themselves first and Turkey next.

Farnaz1Mansouri1

You wrote, "The Nation of Ireland now has a BLASPHEMY LAW.

It went into effect today. The story is receiving coverage all around the world.
http://www.congoo.com/news/2010January2/Ireland-atheists-test-blasphemy-law

The decline, so to speak, of the West.

I agree.

Or another way to put it is, the night of the sixth day is descending upon us.

Isn't it something that so many want to throw away their "freedom" for "security" and will end up with neither.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

In the past, we have offered Professor Khan and other bred, born and brainwashed Muslims, our Five Step Method for Deprograming and Deflawing the Cult of Islam but apparently with only a few takers. We try yet again:

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith.

Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/ distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

shevalsheshe

You wrote, "No new prophets according to Revelation 22:18-19. Only the prophets of the Bible.."

It speaks about no new prophesies not about prophets, as a matter of fact chapter 22 is not the only chapter in Revelation, is it?

There are many prophesies in the bible that have not yet been fulfilled, aren't there?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

shevalsheshe

You wrote, "God and His Word are one."

Doesn't it say in the bible that "The Word became Flesh"?

Did Jesus become "Flesh" or did the bible?

Jesus extended the invitation to "Come follow Me", His invitation was to follow Him, not a book.

Jesus died for others, Jesus extended the invitation to follow Him, pretty simple, don't you think?

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

levelheaded1

You wrote, "I think the west has failed to recognize that the Muslim/Christian schism"

There is NO "Muslim/Christian schism".

schism:

a. a formal division within, or separation from, a church or religious body over some doctrinal difference.

The god of islam calls Jesus a liar and then claims Jesus as his prophet.

Then, "is not just a religious issue but also a "political one""

"islam" is about world domination and "Christianity" is about God's unfolding Plan for the salvation of ALL of humanity and ALL of Creation, there is a difference, wouldn't you say?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Hmmm, "zebra4" is back in big way!! Remember, this is an anonymous blog and imposters abound.

And the oddity of Islam continues

"The (St. Catherine of Alexandria's) monastery possesses an important historical document, the Achtiname, in which Muhammad is claimed to have bestowed his protection upon the monastery. A Fatimid mosque was built within the walls of the monastery, but it has never been used since it is not correctly oriented towards Mecca."

Then there is this:

"Because of the fabulous character of the account of her martyrdom and the lack of reliable documentation, the Roman Catholic Church in 1969 removed her feast day from the General Roman Calendar."

zebra4:
"The life of a Jewish child is as precious as the life of a Hindu, Christian, or a Muslim child."

How about the life of a Kaafir ( a pagan, a hindu, a buddhist, a trinitarian christian, etc. )? Is it worth that of a Momin ( a true believing Muslim)? Why is it that in all schools of Sharia, a kaafir woman's blood money is not even one eigth that of a muslim man? Why is that still on the laws books of Islamic Republic of Iran and Pakistan among other OIC countries?

Farnaz: You and I are in agreement on the concerns for HUMANITY, which is why the following is a good reading:

http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq7.html

Farnaz1Mansouri1:

You mentioned your posts on some web sites, I never heard of. I don't have time to surf through other web sites you seem to use nor do I have that kind of emotional engagement you seem to have.

I have been very fortunate or blessed that I came to know many Jews, Christians, Hindus, or Muslims who are kind hearted and who deeply care about humanity. There are good and bad people everywhere.

MY BOTTOM LINE IS: TREAT FELLOW HUMANS AS HUMAN BEINGS. The life of a Jewish child is as precious as the life of a Hindu, Christian, or a Muslim child.

Farnaz;
In reply to your inquiry of sometime ago I used to sign under the name Ibrahim Mahfouz.

Which Muhammad are we talking about? The Muhammad of the Quran or Muhammad of the Sunnah?

They are not the same you know.

You know that Muqtadar.

Im just sick FarnazMansouri's lies about my views. My views are on these blogs for all to see. I've never denied that Christians like Pakistanis belonging to the lowest tier of the society do suffer a great deal. She had made a false claim regarding Christians being forced to become sweepers. I only asked her to prove this false claim. None of her posts points towards Christians being forced to become Sweepers.

Plus there is no mention of the fact that Christian have quota's to represent their community from the local council level to Senate and National Assembly, based on the percentage of their population. That is in addition to what they can get on their own. Plus there are similar quota's in Education Institutes, jobs etc. The Christians generally live a lot peacefully with considerable freedoms to practice their religion as compared with neighbouring India, where converting Christians back to hinduism are part of Election manifestos of Hindu parties. The fact that this pseudo-scholar deliberately posts just one side of the argument tells all about her intent in digging up this information and maligning Pakistanis only. All her posts need to be taken with a considerable pinch of salt considering her closeness to zionist ideology.

Zebra4,

Much of my posting on the Christians was directed to yasseryousufi.

I have been to Pakistan and seen the plight of the Christians and Hindus. They are not all suffering, but the situation of the majority, especially of the Christians, is deplorable. Hard, actually, to believe, even when one sees it. There is great poverty in that country all the way around, but, for the most part, the Christians have even fewer rights than most other people.

yasseryousufi resorts to name-calling, hate, bigotry, denial, lying.

In my posts on the Christians, I responded to his lying, hypocrisy, and baiting. That does not mean that the plight of the Christians should be kept hidden.

But what is important here? What does it come down to when we look around, Zebra4? Morally corrupt governments or "government substitutes" fomenting discord. Regional and neo-imperialist coercion. Money. OUr president, the president of the United States is taking a conciliatory approach to the genocidal head of Sudan. Why? China. I'm sure you've read about this.

Religion, nation state, geopolitics, land, capital, the latter two, unevenly distributed, of course.

Sum them and what do you have? Exploitation, torture, human trafficking, rape, starvation, disease, murder, death, etc. One cannot even keep up with who is oppressing whom at any given instant.

I don't think you are a bad person, Zebra4. I never did. I don't want to build the Bridge over the River Kwai with you, or with anyone else.

Farnaz:

Your claim that you know a lot more than I do humbles me a great deal. I wish you and I had some kind of reading meter to read that. Granted, YOU ARE SUPERIOR BUT LAUGHABLE.

Posted by: zebra4 | January 2, 2010 11:38 PM
Report Offensive Comment

Farnaz: Here is what I posted this morning with no response from you (which is o.k):

Farnaz:
I agree with you that The coptic Christians should be protected in Egypt, and the Moroccan Jews should be protected in Morocco. But at the same time the Palestinian Muslims and Christians should also be protected in Palestine or Israel. Killing innocent people of any faith or usurping their land, property or institutions can NEVER be a noble act.
The basic principle is: DON'T KILL IF YOU DON"T WANT TO BE KILLED.
Posted by: zebra4 | January 2, 2010 11:57 AM

*****************************************

My statement is very clear. Violence against Jews or any one else is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

I think you are also confusing me with someone else on your Tunisia posting. I do not recall any exchange of dialog on the subject.

If you scroll down, you will my reproduced statement.
-------------------------
The statement about Tunisia did not occur on this blog. If you'd like I'll retrieve it. As for my "surperiority," give me a break. Knowing more about certain things in no way makes one "superior," and, frankly, you were well aware that I was not making that claim.

You conveniently ignored my remark concerning the difficulty you had even reading my posts about our history in Pakistan, of which you knew little. I'm not going to pursue this line because it is silly.

If I hurt your feelings, that was not my intent.

As for what you posted this morning, you are correct, I did not see it. But, as I've mentioned, I've posted on the Haredi many times. I've also said that never in the thousands of years of Jewish history have we had anything approaching fundamentalism. That began in the 1970s, largely, among some Haredi.

At all events, the majority in Israel are secular. Of course, I don't think innocent Palestinians should be killed. That would be insane.

I honestly don't know what you're getting at. Innocents should not be killed. Period.

Who, but a lunatic, would argue that?

Should the Yemeni rabbi have been killed? Should Yemen be Judenrein?

There is no end to this. These are ideological issues. They concern oil, first and foremost, but not only. This has, in fact, little to do with either Muslims or Jews. Although they are suffering and dying.

There are, of course, enemies within both peoples, but they are, in most cases symptomatic, like the extemist Haredi.

It may be too late. On all sides. For all sides.

The thing is there is only one real side. And neither Muslims nor Jews, the ordinary people are on it.

Farnaz:

Your claim that you know a lot more than I do humbles me a great deal. I wish you and I had some kind of reading meter to read that. Granted, YOU ARE SUPERIOR BUT LAUGHABLE.

Farnaz: Here is what I posted this morning with no response from you (which is o.k):

Farnaz:
I agree with you that The coptic Christians should be protected in Egypt, and the Moroccan Jews should be protected in Morocco. But at the same time the Palestinian Muslims and Christians should also be protected in Palestine or Israel. Killing innocent people of any faith or usurping their land, property or institutions can NEVER be a noble act.
The basic principle is: DON'T KILL IF YOU DON"T WANT TO BE KILLED.
Posted by: zebra4 | January 2, 2010 11:57 AM

*****************************************

My statement is very clear. Violence against Jews or any one else is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

I think you are also confusing me with someone else on your Tunisia posting. I do not recall any exchange of dialog on the subject.

If you scroll down, you will my reproduced statement.

Farnaz1Mansouri1 :

You proved my point. There has been a long tradition of racism, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia in Europe. All that led to the Holocaust, European colonialism, and a total annihilation of some human groups.
-----------------------------------------
Ah, no. However, you may be on the way to proving mine. You will need to do a lot more reading. You will have to read about the Jewish presence in Palestine (archivally documented), the finagling of the Brits (repulsive and almost unbelievable), the American stranglehold on Israel, contra the media, etc.

"Some human groups" include the indigenous peoples on what is the United States, still being genocided, still having their lands stolen, recently awarded an embarrassing pittance. Some groups include the indigenous peoples of Canada (the First Nations) who are treated much as the Dalit of Pakistan, quiet though its kept.
Starving in Canada and the US and in Austrailia.

Then there are the Taino Indians--completely genocided by the Europeans. Liteally, wiped off the face of the earth and replaced with African slaves.

JUst a sampling of the human groups.

Read, Zebra4, but you won't find much that is entertaining. There are left in Egypt three (3) Jews of whom we know. Nearly 2500 years of history gone. Eighty thousand gone.

Of the Mizrahi, though, the Yemeni, like the Ethopians were unique. There culture has come to an end.

Europe and America, Zebra4.

Get it? YET?

All organized religion should be outlawed and its practitioners brought to justice. Like it was done to fascism and possibly soon to communism as well.

Farnaz1Mansouri1 :

You proved my point. There has been a long tradition of racism, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia in Europe. All that led to the Holocaust, European colonialism, and a total annihilation of some human groups.

As far as CAPT_AHAB is concerned, I and many others, do not take him seriously. He is a deeply troubled person.

And you, Farnaz, you complained about Egyptian Christians or Moroccan Jews. I agreed with you but you remained silent on what is being done to Palestinians.

You pick and choose. That is not the way moral arguments are advanced.
-----------------------------------
Absolutely false from beginning to end. Never once, not once, have you ever "agreed" or even acknowledged the facts of what I presented. I recall your using quasi-obscene language when I posted on Tunisia's ethnic cleansing.

On everything else, you have been silent. As with the Yemeni Jews. I have, in fact, posted on the Haredi more than once. Yet never have I heard a word from you about the children, many of them African Jewish children, living out their lives in fall out shelters avoiding Hezbollah rockets.

NOt ONCE. Not once did I hear you comment on the murderer who shot a little girl in the head at point blank range and then was given a hero's welcome in Greater Syria (Lebanon). Not once did you comment on the synagogue bombings, suicide bombings in Tel Aviv, etc. NOT ONCE.

But...there is always tomorrow.....

And, let us be honest. I know much, much more than you do about US history in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa. In fact, you have found my postings on Pakistan difficult to bear. But we did those things, Zebra4, egged on interminably by the Brits and BP.

The BRITS HUNG JEWS IN THE STREETS OF JERUSALEM.

GET IT?

Oh, and Zebra4, spare us that tired righteous indignation drek, beginning with "I served my country, blah, blah, and, of course, blah."

So did I. So do I every day, and so do tens of thousands of others. That does not explain why the remnants of a three-thousand-year-old civilization of Yemeni Jews came to an end last week, with the 355 left forced to emigrate.

Why? Because screaming lunatic Islamists raided their villages yelling, "Convert or die!" These were VILLAGERS--carpenters, artisans, shoe repairers--who speak no modern Hebrew, no English.

Things came to a head when a thirty-one (31) year old rabbi was murdered by a serviceman, who subsequently boasted of the murder. Amnesty INternational, Human Rights Watch got hold of the story, and Yemen was forced to put the murderer on trial. He was then judged to be non compos mentis (frequently the case in the ME, when the murderer is of a higher caste), but that did not appease either his young widow or the human rights folk. So, he was tried for real, found guilty, of course. There were many witnesses.

The man's wealthy family offered the impoverished young widow 25,000 US dollars in "blood money," also very common in the MIddle East, outside of Israel, Asia, and Africa. When one accepts the blood money, the murderer is released.

Notwithstanding the huge sum offered her, the three orphaned children she has been left to raise alone, the widow, declined the blood money immediately. She is in Yemen, awaiting justice for her murdered young husband.

You know all about this, though, Zebra4, since it's been in the newspapers, and you have read the columns. I posted them to you.

Oddly, neither you nor any of our Muslim panelists had anything to say about it. Not a word.

That silence does NOT SERVE this country. It is the act of a combatant.

Farnaz1Mansouri1 :

You proved my point. There has been a long tradition of racism, anti-Semitism and Islamophobia in Europe. All that led to the Holocaust, European colonialism, and a total annihilation of some human groups.

As far as CAPT_AHAB is concerned, I and many others, do not take him seriously. He is a deeply troubled person.

And you, Farnaz, you complained about Egyptian Christians or Moroccan Jews. I agreed with you but you remained silent on what is being done to Palestinians.

You pick and choose. That is not the way moral arguments are advanced.

zebra4:

I don't know to whom you were directing this Churchill nonsense, but lest you believe that Capt. Ahab, et al, are Jews, let me assure you that they most certainly are not. Either way, you have proven to be a disappointment, not once but again and again. Still, I held out hope since these discussions are inevitably contentious, and I do not want to join you in building bridge on the River Kwai.

However, one good Churchill quote deserves another, and I can play this game with you--quoting Christian by Christian commenting alternately on Islam and Judaism, for the next couple of months.

In the meantime, if Captin Ahab is correct and you have stopped your medication, consider taking your pills. They may help.

Winston Churchill on Islam

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.

The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

-- Sir Winston Churchill (The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pages 248-50 [London: Longmans, Green & Co., 1899]).

-------------------------------------------
There now, Zebra4, do you feel better? Have you gained anything? Is this sort of thing worthy of you?

The only Jew posting here has been yours truly, but then, you're afraid to take on the Christians/Catholics. And you're not alone among your co-religionists, are you?

They prefer to torture and oppresss, rape, beat, starve the Christians. And then they blow them up.

Guess what? As you should have figured out by now, those days of Jewish victims are long, long gone. You should have been able to draw that conclusion quite clearly, from me alone.

..as an Atheist since birth, i always have to lafffff at the theists especially the ones imprisoned by christianity...

question to 'true believers' What language did your Jesus speak? Answer: He spoke Aramaic and what is the word for god/lord in Aramaic ???

That's right it "Allah" and the lips follow where the mind an heart are... his god was Allah.

I'm quite sure that Mohammed would have had me executed for being a Metaphysical Naturalist. And i'm sure that most evangelicals would as well. But the rube is, Atheists do not need any 'free pass' or get out of jail cards. Our atheism-center is an anathema to your superstitions. You will kill us. Believers are a fickle lot just like their 'allahs'.

Oddly, this thread reminds me of an old movie I saw awhile ago. I believe it was called "Bridge on the River Kwai" and was set during WWII. A principle character, the highest ranking British officer in a prisoner of war camp, is ordered to have his men build a bridge for the enemy.

This he does. He goes to great lengths to erect a spectacular bridge and thereby show the Japanese the superiority of his men and their way of life.

Toward the end, he realizes his insanity; he has assisted the enemy, and the bridge must be blown up.
-------------------
On this thread many of us are, unknowingly, working feverishly together--Muslims, Christians, et al--to build a bridge for the enemy.

Before it is too late, will we know what we have been doing?

zebra4 wrote:

"An article “By the Rt. Hon. Winston S. Churchill” in the February 8, 1920, issue of the Illustrated Sunday Herald, named Karl Marx, Bela Kuhn, Rosa Luxembourg and others among Jews who were behind “every subversive movement” in the 19th century. He also accused Trotsky of attempting to set up a world communist empire “under Jewish domination”.

Why does any discussion of Islam, the Middle East, and Israel bring out those who have for one reason or another stopped taking their psychotropic medications such that they need to type out their paranoid fantasies on the Web?

I can remember as a teenager going into chat rooms on AOL and being provocative and baiting people into fights. Clearly this was immature but it was also surprisingly fun. I hope that the comments posted by Californicationdude are simply an attempt to provoke others. I can't imagine them being anything else because they are too idiotic to be taken seriously. Californicationdude wrote, "the world will be a better place when all muslims are dead and no is left to worship their false idol, allah." This comment is so absurd in its ignorance that it can only be seen as humorous. If on the off chance, Californicationdude, you meant what you said then let me say this too you. [written in Californicationdude's style] I, a descendent of Christian warriors from the Great North, turn my attention away form the horizon and look upon the evil within my land. With the sword of God blazing in fury I cast you to oblivion. Also, what is with stupid pseudonyms. Be man enough to stand by your comments with at least your first name.

the world will be a better place when all muslims are dead and no is left to worship their false idol, allah.

The British and other European colonial powers of the past laid the foundations for future conflicts in several parts of the world before they had to leave their former colonies such as Kashmir (conflict between India-Pakistan), Palestine (Palestine-Israel), and Iraq-Kuwait, to name just three.

Before the Holocaust there was a constant effort to demonize Jews all over the world, especially Europe.

Lord Cromer, Britain’s proconsul in Egypt (1883-1907), divided humanity into “governing races” and “subject races”, while T. E. Lawrence called Egyptians “worms”. This is hardly different from “vermin”, the Nazi epithet for Jews.

Lord Balfour, whose 1917 declaration handed over Palestine to Europeans, was intensely anti-Jewish and was so disturbed by the possible mass migration of east European Jews into Britain following pogroms in Russia that as prime minister he had the Aliens Act passed in 1905 to block their migration to Britain. And Mark Sykes (of the Sykes-Picot pact fame) called the Jews “the archetype of cosmopolitan financier, rootless money grubber....contemptible”.

Churchill believed that “atheistic Jews” were behind the Russian revolution, and often referred to the Bolsheviks as “bacillus”— a pet Nazi term for Jews. An article “By the Rt. Hon. Winston S. Churchill” in the February 8, 1920, issue of the Illustrated Sunday Herald, named Karl Marx, Bela Kuhn, Rosa Luxembourg and others among Jews who were behind “every subversive movement” in the 19th century. He also accused Trotsky of attempting to set up a world communist empire “under Jewish domination”.

The only promise I make to Islam is unceasing hostility.

A. Kafir aka Ibrahim Mahfouz aka Arif 1 aka Arif2 aka CCNL. Any other name?

A bit more on this spurious document:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achtiname_of_Muhammad

Check out the references and the discussions therein.

"For scientists like us"

That explains a lot why science is where it is in ALL the OIC countries.

AMvienna chids me thus:

"On the latter part of your statement, you are mistaken: the monastery has not been looted, at any time. You really do need to study some history."
Moi: The link below lists the number of times it was looted by the local Bedouins and by the Turkish colonialists just in the past 600 years.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3209596

Claim
“On the former part of your statement ("If this pact is legitimate it would have been specific for St. Catherine monastery"), I must direct you to the first and last sentences of the document”
Moi:
I direct you to the body of the article which says in part:
“In 628 AD, a delegation from St. Catherine's Monastery came to Prophet Muhammad and requested his protection. He responded by granting them a charter of rights, which I reproduce below in its entirety.”

My other proofs that such an alleged pact could not be general are Quran 9:29 among many others and”Omar Pact”
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html
as well as the actual treatment of minorities in Muslim majority societies throughout history.

I forgot to add that Islam makes it claims of truth based on some very sound miracles. One of them, which every scientist should be moved by is the EXACT SPEED OF LIGHT, as INVARIANT. For scientists like us, it is a sufficient miracle to believe absolutely in Islam.

http://www.speed-light.info/angels_speed_of_light.htm

I am not a scholar, so I humbly submit my opinion. I also agree with many things of Neturei Karta so I express affinity with them.

(1) This eternal covenant with the Christians extends only to the Christians, not to the Romans who are essentially pagan and use Christian celebration customs but neither believe in it nor practise the essentials of the faith.

(2) In the same way, the Jewish faith is defined clearly by obedience to the Torah whose clearest proponents are the Neturei Karta and Torah TRUE jews. This does not extend to ZIONISTS.

(3) Hindus have tried to make a space for themselves, mostly with a need to sustain an empire or greater india, but using the argument of multiple paths to truth and not making a judgement of truth but as a cult and essential cult or myth. Then they attack islam by calling it absolutist in truth and values. While hinduism itself decimated buddhism in the indian subcontinent. Even at the tip of Sri Lanka, they sent Tamil Tiger Terrorists trained with Israeli help (reference Ostrovsky) and model of suicide bomber to eliminate it. Majority of them have perverted it to a fascist cult for greater india. I am not a scholar, but my guides are Ostrovsky, and Swami Vivekananda's writings published by Vedanta movement.

(4) Neturei Karta has been a source of major embarrasment and defeat to the hate-mongering ideology of zionists of all stripes, christian, and hindu to use the Jews against Islamic world. Thus recently, Shri Advani and Shri Jaswant Singh have made a major turn, but the Indian leadership refuses to solve the non-religious disputes of Kashmir and foments other land disputes like Palestine.

The Qur'an is anti Jew and Christian. Therefore Isalm is anti Jew and Christian:

Sura 5:51:
“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.” This friendship makes any Muslim a enemy of their own and deserving of the same fate as the unbeliever. This is because God does not guide an unjust people."

Sura 9:5
"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

WHO ARE THE IDOLATERS?

Sura 930-31
"And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."

Answer: Jew and Trinitarian Christians

RichFromTampa"

in your post you stated that the "US soldiers are guarding Sauidi Arabia...."

nothing of the kind!

When I say that freedom FROM religion is a basic human right, I think some folks think I'm being rhetorical. I am not.

The First Amendment guarantees both freedom of and freedom from religion, by definition.

In this country, the Christian/Catholic Right has effected health care legislation, is fighting to legislate marriage requirements, is doing what it can to take choice from women.

In this country, the Christian/Catholic Right has decided that it will determine by "conscience" which procedures to perform in state funded hospitals, which prescriptions it will and will not fill.

This can be ended. Their excessive influence can be ended in a matter of months. There are many, many believers, of all faiths, who strongly object to Religion influencing legislation.

Naked power is being summoned to oppress the people of the United States. If you have lived in a quasi-theocracy, perhaps you can see the signs more clearly--I don't know.

I do know that unlike Iranians, we have options. We can protest, actively. The worst thing we can do is nothing. That is how blasphemy laws are passed. And much, much worse.

@AMviennaVA:
"A meaningless statement. The document has been available and has a documented chain-of-custody history dating back to 628AD."

Rubbish. The translation given of Al-Ohda al-Mohamadeyas has been taken from the book ‘Muslim History: 570 – 1950 C.E.’ written by Akram Zahoor. Now Zahoor does not provide any references or copy of the charter. The translation is of a Latin copy of a 9th century document of the Monastry. If you claim a documented chain of custody, provide a reference. Lying and bluster does not make a lie into something real.

The Nation of Ireland now has a BLASPHEMY LAW.
It went into effect today. The story is receiving coverage all around the world.

http://www.congoo.com/news/2010January2/Ireland-atheists-test-blasphemy-law

The decline, so to speak, of the West.

abhab1 @ December 31, 2009 9:32 PM wrote "If this pact is legitimate it would have been specific for St. Catherine monastery, and such alleged promise was not respected for any length of time because the place was looted many times during Mohammad’s life even with the presence of a large Roman garrison."

On the latter part of your statement, you are mistaken: the monastery has not been looted, at any time. You really do need to study some history.

On the former part of your statement ("If this pact is legitimate it would have been specific for St. Catherine monastery"), I must direct you to the first and last sentences of the document: "This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. ... No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)." By 'near and far' the document applies to all of creation; and it is valid until the 'Last Day'.

halozcel1 @ December 30, 2009 1:36 PM wrote considerable nonsense, which show ignorance and arrogance. To wit:

"Would you please show The Original Document." Anyone can travel to the monastery and see the document. It has been available and reviewed for many centuries now!

"Lets suppose,it's a Geniune and Original Document." A meaningless statement. The document has been available and has a documented chain-of-custody history dating back to 628AD.

"We can not arrive at anywhere by Fake and Fabricated Documents." Again, another meaningless statement.

I strongly suggest that you (a) mature; (b) open your mind to history; (c) shed yourself of your anglo-centrism.

Would the good Dr. Khan also be willing to explain to his Palestinian Islamist colleagues that the Jewish Second Temple actually stood on the Temple Mount before any Mosque stood there?

Would he further be willing to explain that the Mosques were built there because the preceding Jewish Temple had made it a Holy Place, before even the Prophet had heard a single word from Allah?

Posted by: captn_ahab | January 2, 2010 6:26 PM
---------------------------------------
AH, yes. There is that. Indeed, there is that.

And Jews have prayed facing the Temple Mount for 2,000 years. Observant Jews pray facing the Temple three times a day.

Yes, there is that. BIG Time.

Would the good Dr. Khan also be willing to explain to his Palestinian Islamist colleagues that the Jewish Second Temple actually stood on the Temple Mount before any Mosque stood there?

Would he further be willing to explain that the Mosques were built there because the preceding Jewish Temple had made it a Holy Place, before even the Prophet had heard a single word from Allah?

TO All AMERICAN RELIGIONISTS AND BELIEVERS:

On this day in history, Ireland's BLASPHEMY LAW
went into effect. That would be IRELAND's Blasphemy Law.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/01/02/2010-01-02_atheist_ireland_protests_blasphemy_law_by_publishing_book_of_religious_quotation.html

From the article, "THE COLONIAL HOLOCAUST AND ITS LEGACY":

"The New Right is thus essentially an advocate of a world system that encourages Third World enslavement to the Western ideology and, accordingly, general Western dominance, politically, economically and culturally. In reply to this essentially racist conception which elevates European civilisation to a status of universal superiority, we may recall the cuttingly wry observations of Mark Twain: “In many countries we have chained the savage and starved him to death... in many countries we have burned the savage at the stake... we have hunted the savage and his little children and their mother with dogs and guns... in many countries we have taken the savage’s land from him, and made him our slave, and lashed him every day, and broken his pride and made death his only friend, and overworked him till he dropped in his tracks.” “There are many humorous things in the world; among them the white man’s notion that he is less savage than other savages.”

What a Find! So when can our U.S. Soldiers guarding Saudi Arabia begin to wear their Crucifixes?? RichFromTampa

MPatalinjug

Nothing in the curriculum of these "madrassas" includes teaching the unbreakable promise that prophet Muhammad made to all Christians.
--------------------------------
No comment on this, for now. I would, however, like to know the promise he made to all Jews, to all Hindus.

shevalsheshe wrote: "This is a very serious offense against God."

Is that a fact? Did "god" tell you so? And "god" needs to be defended by fanatics carrying posters of old bearded men, screaming "Death to ----" (anyone whom the muslims dislike)? Why don't you leave it to "god" to fend for himself, fool? Such trash the religious utter, it's incredible ...

Posted by: RichardHode | January 2, 2010 5:42 PM
=======================================
I quite agree with the sentiment, but would point out that the blogger whom you quote is Christian.

Yonkers, New York
02 January 2010

This clear promise of the prophet Muhammad that goes beyond, far beyond, simple amity to all Christians is one that ought to make Muslims and Christians to live in peace "till the end."

The trouble is that in those "madrassas" in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, and possibly other Muslim countries, young Muslims are "educated" only on certain parts of the Qu'ran and deliberately to hate "infidels."

Nothing in the curriculum of these "madrassas" includes teaching the unbreakable promise that prophet Muhammad made to all Christians.

There is only a deliberate distortion of the Qu'ran to suit destructive political agendas in these madrassas.

No wonder these madrassas are fertile breeding grounds for jihadists, fundamentalists, extremists and terrorists.

Mariano Patalinjug

It was one thing when religionists ran around with spears and the like. Now, however, they run around with legislation, bombs, and tanks.

What, in 2010, is wrong with this picture.

Lets let common sense prevail. Fanatics aside (from both sides of the issues): who would deny those in overwhelming circumstances some hope, those facing impending/certain death some peace, or those who are helpless in this world some compassion. You do not need to lose for me to win. We would be half way to world peace if we all would but live and let live.

shevalsheshe wrote: "This is a very serious offense against God."

Is that a fact? Did "god" tell you so? And "god" needs to be defended by fanatics carrying posters of old bearded men, screaming "Death to ----" (anyone whom the muslims dislike)? Why don't you leave it to "god" to fend for himself, fool? Such trash the religious utter, it's incredible ...

All the Bozos here given to Pavlovian defence of Islam and the Church's version of "Christianity" should take a deep breath followed by an attempt to comprehend the approach taken by ANY one of the Eastern philosophies (Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, Vedanta etc.) towards man's Spiritual Journey.

It will then be "revealed" to them what the fundamental issue is: Any "religion" that lays exclusive claim on "Truth" (unpardonably) imposes a dichotomy on humanity ("us" versus "them") and is essentially rubbish! Indeed, the games of power, control and proselytization that follow such hallucinations of infallibility in matters Divine are but natural corollaries.

The only truly peaceful religions are those who feel secure enough in themselves as to declare that the Divine can be approached in multiple ways and hence do not seek to proselytize. Indeed, it is no coincidence that such religions do not feel the need to keep the flock together by naked threats and invoking fear (the "Fires of Hell" and what have you!). Needless to add, both Islam and Christianity are utterly indefensible from this perspective!

Morryb,
I fully agree with your post, especially the part that I am quoting below with great pleasure:

"Anyone who hears voices where no one else does is in serious need of psychiatric help. All religions are cults and they survive due to indoctrinating the minds of very young children from generation to generation. The children grow up to be believers and have “faith” and the BS is propagated again."

Of course, I am not going to be discriminatory and exlude Islam from the scope pf the word "all", above. You are a smart person.

Signed:
Siddique Malik
www.courier-journal.com/muslimblog

"From the comments posted here, it is easy to see where the problem lies. It is not within religion, but within the people that practice religion."
----------------------------------------
I read one variation or another of this tired theme again and again.

I wonder how many "believers" have the wherewithal, the intellectual honesty to apprehend the foundational circularity of this reasoning.

From the comments posted here, it is easy to see where the problem lies. It is not within religion, but within the people that practice religion.

It's sad to see that such a peaceful article is still met with ignorance and hatred. I don't see how people say they want peace, tolerance and understanding when they refuse to offer it themselves.

Humans are a strange lot and we will be our own doom, regardless if you believe in God or not.

Well I do not take stock in the utterings of people that said God talked to them and this includes Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed or even Billy Graham. Anyone who hears voices where no one else does is in serious need of psychiatric help. All religions are cults and they survive due to indoctrinating the minds of very young children from generation to generation. The children grow up to be believers and have “faith” and the BS is propagated again. Once brain-washed into a particular cult, which is the “true” one, there is little tolerance for members of the others since they must obviously be unbelievers. Scientific evidence exists that demonstrates that the universe is billions of years old, that the Earth circles the sun, and that the diversity of life is caused by natural selection. Yet those of faith will argue that the “good book” knows better and, therefore, the “divine” authority knows better. Hard to argue against that kind of logic.

Keep up the good works.Post your message world wide to bring Peace instead of ignorance across our world.

You ask when will the Jihadists stop killing themselves and others? When they are mature enough to stop using the manual of a 7th Century desert warlord to tackle the problems of a complicated 21st Century world.

Oh, I am so sorry for being "insensitive" and "offensive" in my postings. Apparently suicide bombers and chanting and rantind maniacs and endless bloodshed is more tolerable when disgusted intolerance toward all that madness.
I understand. I keep it down. Heaven forbid I offend a religious lunatic somehwere.

shevalsheshe:

PS. SiddiqueMalik is correct. Your comments are the Christian equivalent of a Talib's. I know. I've met a couple of Taliban. Your relatives, perhaps?

Prior to the first Crusade, which by the way were not called "crusades" until the 19th century, Muslims allowed free access to all religious sites in the Levant by all religions. It was not until the Franks, to rid themselves of pestiferous, idle younger brothers, attacked in 1000 ACE did Islam restrict access to the Levant. This was a direct result of the christian habit of killing all muslims. Tit for tat so to speak. Muhammad (pbuh), as mentioned by most islamic scholars, would not condone the killing of thousands at a volley ball game or the destruction of christians or jews. Look at Cordoba. Principal advisers to the moors were both jews and christians.

Farnaz1Mansouri1: Don't gloat over Bible's assertions that those who do not believe in it will go to hell. The Quran syas the same thing about non-Muslims. Every religion is bigotted in the sense that it claims to be the correct religion and considers all other religions as bad and their followers hell-bound. Neither Christianity nor Islam is an exception.
FYI, I am a Muslim. Read my newspaper blog:
www.courier-journal.com/muslimblog

Posted by: SiddiqueMalik
--------------------------------
What are you talking about? That insanity of going to hell, my way or the highway has nothing to do with JUDAISM.

I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN. I'm a Jew, and Judaism holds that Hashem (=name, i.e., God) has a covenant with ALL PEOPLES, including Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Pagans, et al, that Jews are not to judge.

HOWEVER, I am NOT a VICTIM. And will not be victimized by cultural, psychological, or political imperialism.

End, really, of discussion.

Very interesting comments, however, it is evident that many Muslims, as are many Christians, are cafeteria style believers, picking and choosing only those portions from their Sacred Texts that agree with their beliefs. They tend to forget or ignore the ones about compassion, forgiveness, and loving your neighbor.

shevalsheshe, You sound like the Taliban. "Crime against God?" That's exactly how the criminal Taliban refers to somethings. Apparently, I missed that email through which Allah or God or whatever declared certain things crime againt him?

Farnaz1Mansouri1: Don't gloat over Bible's assertions that those who do not believe in it will go to hell. The Quran syas the same thing about non-Muslims. Every religion is bigotted in the sense that it claims to be the correct religion and considers all other religions as bad and their followers hell-bound. Neither Christianity nor Islam is an exception.
FYI, I am a Muslim. Read my newspaper blog:
www.courier-journal.com/muslimblog

Farnaz1Mansouri1, I cannot sit here and let you distort the Word of God. Nonbelievers cannot just pick up the Bible and understand its words. You should contact a Christian minister and have them explain all of the Biblical quotes you just posted. You have to be saved to understand the Word of God. You have taken them out of context and used them for your own benefit - not God's intent. This is a very serious offense against God. God and His Word are one.

Posted by: shevalsheshe
------------------------------------
This is the first and last post I shall ever address to you, and I have little hope that you will comprehend any of it.

You are correct when you say that one cannot simply pick up a sacred text and interpret it as they will. However, that is precisely what your co-religionists have done for two thousand years with Tanakh, which, with the utmost arrogance they have dubbed the "OT" (sic).

They do not read it in Hebrew, read it in English which they mistranslate from the mistranslated Greek. Nevertheless, a number of these fools think it perfectly acceptable to trash Tanakh, which they do with abandon, in the interest of a phony liberalism, phony since they are bigots.

The thieving of another people's culture is in the words of EDWARD SAID, of whom you are surely ignorant, the sine qua non of imperialism.

Although Thomas Baum comes at religion from a place very different from you, he suffers from the a similar delusion.

Therefore, to you, and to Thomas I say this.
The same argument you make for the NT is that which I make for Tanakh.

Islam, like Christianity, believes it is the last word. It believes the Quoran supercedes both NT and Tanakh, corrects the errors in both.

This is Said's supercessionist ideology at work just as surely as the "OT" is.

Your NT is a passing phase in Quoranic history. So next time, you or one of your co-ideologues thinks s/he can speak of Tanakh, of which s/he knows nothing, think again.

For I, or another JEW like me, will be there. Quoting from MMLJ, etc., etc., etc.

Congratulations to all of those who will die in suicide bombings next week. And, belatedly, congratulations to all those of you who died last week, yesterday and earlier today. Hope you all find this religion-thing very satisfying as always. Happy New Year! Let the madness continue.

Dr Kahn...me too .. thank you, thank you, thank you for being an almost lone voice for peace and sanity. I too apologize for those who live their religion as hatred and fear and try to foist it on others as following the "true" path. In the replies above, most of the haters are christians and i find it dismaying that the Prince of Peace is so often used as the justification for cruelty, torture, war, genocide, greed and all other versions of the 7 deadly sins... complete with voluminous quotes of other verses of the bible and/or secular histories and news.

I am sorry that so many play the childish games of "it's their fault" or "it's not my fault". Both of these lead only to escalation, hurt people and offended feelings.

Thank you for being a voice for peace.. and thru peace: security and effectively building a future for all of humanity.

Besides publishing views in an occasional newspaper, what can we do ... in your view .. to further the cause of peace?

Farnaz1Mansouri1 wrote:
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14 Matthew
*****Most people who have lived throughout the ages were not and are not Christians and have not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior of their life. Yes, this is a true statement according to Jesus in Matt:7:13-14. It is difficult to give a full course on all 66 books of the Bible on a blog.

# Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. 5:17 Matthew
****No new prophets according to Revelation 22:18-19. Only the prophets of the Bible..

Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30 Matthew
*****Anything or anyone that causes you to offend God has to go from your life! Farnaz1Mansouri1 wrote:

Frankly the promise of Mohammed is meaningless, for the promise of Lord Jesus is true and all I need. If we all lived and loved like Christ Jesus, peace would be as natural as breathing.

Islamic propagation produced for western consumption may influence people ignorant of Islam, but those of us that left Islam know better.

Posted by: JohnDebba **********This is true according to Revelation 22:18-19.

Frankly the promise of Mohammed is meaningless, for the promise of Lord Jesus is true and all I need. If we all lived and loved like Christ Jesus, peace would be as natural as breathing.

Islamic propagation produced for western consumption may influence people ignorant of Islam, but those of that left Islam know better.

Farnaz1Mansouri1, I cannot sit here and let you distort the Word of God. Nonbelievers cannot just pick up the Bible and understand its words. You should contact a Christian minister and have them explain all of the Biblical quotes you just posted. You have to be saved to understand the Word of God. You have taken them out of context and used them for your own benefit - not God's intent. This is a very serious offense against God. God and His Word are one.

Farnaz1Mansouri1

You wrote, "I would suggest that the Christians stick to their own New Testament, and I shall stick to Tanakh."

Whether you like it or not the OT, which the Tanakh is part of, and the NT make up the bible.

The NT flows from the OT and it is God's Plan which is unfolding thru it and God's Plan is still unfolding.

In some of your postings from the NT, Jesus speaks of a "sword", this is not a man-made "sword".

Since you do not believe what is written in the Tanakh, I was wondering why you are so against other people, that is non-Jews, using it as "part" of the bible?

Here in America we are allowed, by law, to believe what we want and it is not open to other people's "suggestions" as to what we can or cannot believe.

And even if it were not allowed by law, it is a God given right bestowed on us by God.

I believe that the "founding fathers" were divinely inspired when they wrote, to the effect, that no one can force another, one way or the other, in their beliefs.

As I have said, God looks at the person, not the "label", sometimes some of us can't seem to get past the "label" of another.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Looking at all the comments posted...it is sorrowful to see so much hate, rejection and anger. What I think is the problem, is not in the religions. But us humans, irrespective of our religious affiliation. We use religion for our own personal gain, and manipulate and twist its preaching to suit our personal, political and economical agenda. Can't we stop putting each other's religion down, live peacefully, harmoniously and accept that we might have diffrences and let God be the Final Arbitrator, since we all say that He is the Judge?
Let's concentrate on doing what is right and good instead of trying to put one another down.

Just think if there wasn't any of this garbage called religion to begin with: then according to your logic, the world would be 100% at peace.

All you believers are a bunch of superstitious idiots.

Zebra4 wrote:

"CAPTN_AHAB:
If you can answer the question; WHAT was it that led Timothy McVeigh, Ted Krazynski,Eric Rudolph, William Kraar, Dr. Robert Goldstein, the podiatrist, and Rev Jim Jones to violence, your question will become more relevant."

If you can tell me the international religious phlosophy that inspired and trained all these guys to become suicide bombers, then your statement will have some meaning. As it stands now, it is a meaningless comparison.

Apparently, your objective is to continue to rationalize Islamist suicide bombing, rather than address the major reiligious aberration perpetuating violence in our time.

Come on, you can do better than enabling Islamist terrorism.

Frankly the promise of Mohammed is meaningless, for the promise of Lord Jesus is true and all I need. If we all lived and loved like Christ Jesus, peace would be as natural as breathing.

Islamic propagation produced for western consumption may influence people ignorant of Islam, but those of us that left Islam know better.

Frankly the promise of Mohammed is meaningless, for the promise of Lord Jesus is true and all I need. If we all lived and loved like Christ Jesus, peace would be as natural as breathing.

Islamic propagation produced for western consumption may influence people ignorant of Islam, but those of that left Islam know better.

Too much religion is bad for you. Ask any shoe- or clinic bomber and they will tell you. Or better not.

Mr. Khan's article reflects the same handicap that Muslims today consistently show and which is responsible for their inability to embrace modernity. This handicap comes in their way of establishing sound political systems based upon secularism and respect for diversity.
Now allow me to describe the handicap: Muslims are too hung up on what Mohammad said and did. The issue is not what was said or done 1400 years ago, but how Muslims can have effective systems of government based on justice, fairness and equality for all citizens. Can a non-Muslim practice his/her religion in Saudi Arabia without being arrested and decapitated (that is what Saudi law dictates)? Can a non-Muslim Pakistani run for the office of prime minister or president? Can a Muslim convert to another religion without being declared an apostate and thus guilt of death under the laws of many Muslim countries? Can a newspaper cartoonist pick up a pencil and draw a cartoon without being hounded by murderous thugs? And the list goes on.
Read my blog on a Gannett newspaper Website based in KY: www.courier-journal.com/muslimblog

Zebra4 wrote:

"CAPTN_AHAB:
If you can answer the question; WHAT was it that led Timothy McVeigh, Ted Krazynski,Eric Rudolph, William Kraar, Dr. Robert Goldstein, the podiatrist, and Rev Jim Jones to violence, your question will become more relevant..."

If you can tell me the unifying international religious philosophy that inspired and trained these characters you name to become suicide bombers then your question will have some meaning.

Right now, I can only guess that somehow you are trying to rationalize Islamist suicide bombing, and not deal with it as the unique religious aberration of our time.

I think the west has failed to recognize that the Muslim/Christian schism is not just a religious issue but also a "political one"
Addressing the geopolitical issues will go a long way to help achieve peace in the middle east and the world

Any person who has read the quran and its' accompanying books understands that this article, as well intended as it may be, is rubbish. Shame on you sir for misleading people who may not be aware of what islam really is and how their prophet really treated Christians and Jews. If you or anyone need an example of how islam treats Christians look at Pakistan and Egypt and Iran and Iraq and Saudi Arabia......

abhab1:

Re: Your post

I am sure that some of the more extreme passages in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc., a sampling of which I have posted, may be given any number of explanations.

I would suggest that the Christians stick to their own New Testament, and I shall stick to Tanakh.

"The Disappearance, Forced Conversions, and Forced Marriages of Coptic Christian Women in Egypt" (November 2009)

http://www.csi-int.org/pdfs/coptic_report_master-final_report_pdf.pdf

Many critics of the Christian faith do so by either quoting phrases here and there to show that Jesus was an anti-peace rabbi: He incited children against their parents and worst he drowned a flock of pigs. If you believe this I have a bridge here in Chicago I would like to sell you. Other critics quote from the Old Testament, especially from Leviticus and assign it to Christianity. The Old Testament was written by Jews for Jews and the Christians’ interest in it does not go beyond the 300 or so prophecies about the coming of Jesus. Besides the war and violence in Leviticus and other chapters that some Muslims apologists love to quote and blame on Christians were descriptive and bound by time and place; the Jews fighting for a place to call their own. This is very different than the Quran violence which is prescriptive and not bound by time or place.

"Muslims and Christians together constitute over 50 percent of the world. If they lived in peace, we would be half way to world peace."

-------------------------------------------

If Muslims could live in peace with Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, animists, Confucians, secular humanists, or other Muslims we would be like 90% of the way to world peace.

The following quote is from the article, "The Colonial Holocaust and its Legacy":

"It is usually forgotten that the state of the world today is the result of a history of colonial atrocities perpetrated by Europeans. Previous invasions of non-Western lands by European imperialists allowed them to gradually institutionalise the global dominance of their nation-states. Contrary to conventional opinion, the Western powers have managed to maintain this global dominance and influence on the affairs of non-Western nations despite a process of apparent decolonisation, thereby continuing to exploit their wealth and resources to this day. Colonialism served fundamentally to shape these structures of contemporary society, to the extent that today’s international politico-economic structures are the logical culmination of colonial history. Though the Western academic world sometimes expresses shame and regret regarding these colonial exploits, their history has been more or less wiped out from the consciousness of Western society. It suffices for us to consider briefly what the colonial years consisted of, since it is these years that provided the foundations for the building of the contemporary world. In this way, history throws significant light on the real character of Western civilisation and its development."

The link to this article was posted earlier.

CAPTN_AHAB:

If you can answer the question; WHAT was it that led Timothy McVeigh, Ted Krazynski,Eric Rudolph, William Kraar, Dr. Robert Goldstein, the podiatrist, and Rev Jim Jones to violence, your question will become more relevant.

In the United States, acts of domestic terrorism are generally considered to be uncommon. According to the FBI, however, between the years of 1980 and 2000, 250 of the 335 incidents confirmed as or suspected to be terrorist acts in the United States were carried out by American citizens.

"I'll be sure to clip this and carry it with me at all times so I can persuasively whip it out the next time I'm flying and some Mohammed Atta character sashays down the aisle with a box cutter."
POSTED BY: DOUGLASLBARBER
********************************************************

It was here before Sept 11 that American newspapers reported that
Timothy McVeigh was the right wing Christian who bombed the federal Building in Oklahoma City.

Don’t forget Ted Kraczynski - The Unabomber and Clayton Waagner - Anti Abortion Terrorist. Eric Rudolph is another anti-abortion terrorist, who pleaded guilty for bombing the Atlanta Olympics in 1996.

How about Dr. Robert Goldstein, a Jewish podiatrist? He and his wife plotted to bomb mosques, Islamic centers and Islamic schools?

And William Krar who planned to use cyanide to poison thousands of people. He was dubbed The American Taliban after his arrest?

The Army of God encourages killing doctors and nurses providing abortion, and burning their clinics. For example, check what Chuck Spingola, said on the Army of God web site.

Teenagers Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold perpetrated one of the most horrible crimes in the last decade, the infamous Columbine High School shooting rampage.

And then there was Rev. Jim Jones of Jonestown, Guyana who murdered Congressman Ryan and his associates and then led his followers to mass suicide by providing them with the infamous kool aid.

Keep all the clips with you, Doug.

Instead of idealizing those things from Islam's past that spawned some quasi-tolerance of other religions of the Book, it would be more valuable to see an article by an Islamic leader or cleric examining what is it in modern Islam that leads Moslems to fill their underpants with explosives and undertake suicide bombings, or deny that Israel has any place in the Middle East. There is certainly something there that needs to be examined, and that something is not outside of Islam but inside.

Farnaz:

I agree with you that The coptic Christians should be protected in Egypt, and the Moroccan Jews should be protected in Morocco. But at the same time the Palestinian Muslims and Christians should also be protected in Palestine or Israel. Killing innocent people of any faith or usurping their land, property or institutions can NEVER be a noble act.

The basic principle is: DON'T KILL IF YOU DON"T WANT TO BE KILLED.

hyjanks wrote:

The Koran just fumes with gory details of what awaits the infidel if he or she doesn't repent and become a true believer.
In the US, which is predominantly Christian, it seems the truly ignorant among us have thrown out the New Testament and are proudly displaying The Old on their mantles with the Book of Leviticus pages dog eared.
-------------------------------
Clearly, they have not "thrown out the New Testament."

Scroll down for highlights from Matthew (MLJ, etc., to follow).

NT Highlights from Matthew. More from the book of the Religion of Love--MLJ, etc.--to follow.

Matthew

# Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

# Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. 5:17

# Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

# Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

# Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

# "The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

# Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

# Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

# Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. 10:14-15

# Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

# Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

# Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

# Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

# Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

# Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

# Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

CONTINUED:

# "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

# In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13

# Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

# God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

# The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

# Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

# Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

"If they lived in peace, we would be half way to world peace."
This is a joke, right? How on "god's green earth" do you suppose that's going to happen?
What amazes me is that all religious scholars who believe in the clap-trap that is their sacred text conveniently gloss over all of the hideous stuff and state all of the good stuff as being totally representative of their faith. The Koran just fumes with gory details of what awaits the infidel if he or she doesn't repent and become a true believer.
In the US, which is predominantly Christian, it seems the truly ignorant among us have thrown out the New Testament and are proudly displaying The Old on their mantles with the Book of Leviticus pages dog eared.
Sorry, Ms. Religious intellectual, Osama Bin Laden's interpretation of the Koran is just as relevent--or irrelevant--as yours.
And the God-sanctioned killing will continue. Bet on it.

acpress

You wrote, "Basically there is no conflict between the ideologies of Islam and Christianity."

This is simply not true.

The god of islam, to put it mildly, kind of loses it when ANYONE speaks of God as a Trinity and speaks of Jesus as God-Incarnate.

Christianity speaks of God as One and yet a Trinity and that Jesus Is God-Incarnate.

Not only are the "ideologies" of Christianity and Islam basically in conflict, the very basic "core" of each are diametrically opposed.

If Jesus Is God-Incarnate then the god of islam is a liar.

If Jesus is not God-Incarnate then the god of islam pick a liar to be his prophet.

The "most basic" tenet of Christianity, God being a Trinity and Jesus being God-Incarnate, is not only denied by the 'god of islam' but it makes the 'god of islam', shall we say, upset.

As I have said, the True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Religion will never produce peace. Peace will come when rational people finally turn away from First Century nonsense. Religion is a pox on the world.

For more on the persecuted Christians of Egypt, and to help click on:

http://www.copts.com/

There is also abundant documentation at the Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch
web sites.

This very nice article seems only to emphasize the massive hypocrisy and willfully unanswered contradictions we Westerners see in Islam. There remains a remarkable passivity among "moderate" Muslims/Islamists to actively and visibly counter the violent hatred addressed to us Christians and Westerners.
A lot remains to be explained by many, many influential Muslims/Islamists.

CORRECTION:

http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq7.html

US Copts Protest Anti-Christian Violence in Egypt

Monday, December 14, 2009 (5:38 am)

WASHINGTON. Coptic Christians in the United States will protest against an "increase" in Islamic attacks against Egypt's Christian minority and the "refusal" by authorities to halt the violence, organizers said Monday, December 14.

Washington-based rights group International Christian Concern (ICC), which supports the rallies, said three Coptic demonstrations will be held in several U.S. cities.

"American Coptic Christians have coordinated demonstrations to voice their concerns over the vast increase of sectarian violence toward Christian minorities in Egypt. The rallies will be held in New York and Chicago on December 14, and Los Angeles on December 27," ICC said.

"BOILING POINT"

It comes at a time when anti-Christian clashes have hit a "boiling point in upper Egypt and in villages throughout the country," ICC explained.

"The Egyptian government has refused to intervene, leaving Copts defenseless at the hands of Muslim mobs."

Egypt's government has said it wants to crackdown on Islamic extremism. However ICC said "Egypt’s government has committed grave violations of human rights by failing to protect the Coptic minority and forcing the deportation of Copts from villages where anti-Christian attacks have occurred."

The group said that the government has also ignored the abduction and incarceration of Coptic women by Muslim men, which it described as "an overt abuse on women which directly corresponds with the UN’s definition of human trafficking."

GIRLS ABDUCTED

Several Christian groups have reported an increase in abductions of Christian girls in the predominantly Muslim nation.

"These rallies will bring awareness to the flagrant rise of persecution against the Coptic Christian minority under Islamic-based coercion," said ICC Regional Manager for the Middle East Aidan Clay.

"ICC backs the American Coptic community in condemning the Egyptian government for deliberately allowing human rights abuses toward Christians to continue without penalty." Clay said the ICC has encouraged Christians in New York,

Chicago and Los Angeles to participate in the rallies.

This very nice article seems only to emphasize the massive hypocrisy and willfully unanswered contradictions we Westerners see in Islam. There remains a remarkable passivity among "moderate" Muslims/Islamists to avtively and visibly counter the violent hatred addressed to us Christians and Westerners.
A lot remains to be explained by many, many influential Muslims/Islamists.

I'll be sure to clip this and carry it with me at all times so I can persuasively whip it out the next time I'm flying and some Mohammed Atta character sashays down the aisle with a box cutter.

The key to the contract is that Christians be "citizens" of Muhammad ibn Abdulla. In order for the contract to be enforceable, the Christian must submit to political control. Americans will not submit and will not abandon our principles of democracy.

This link should be able to provide the article of mediamonitors:

http://www.mediamonitors/mosaddeq7/html

Muslims worship a false idol called allah. And Muslims attack anyone that does not worship this false idol allah.

These attacks will backfire when we finish them off!

The world will be a better place when there are no more Muslims and their false idol allah.

so next year when I visit Riyadh and go to the local Christian church to pray I'll remember this. What? they don't allow Christians to have churches in Saudi Arabia? But I thought you said....

The Colonial Holocaust and its Legacy (by Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed) - Media Monitors Network*

Your search engine should be able to give you this link.

A timely, historic and brilliantly presented article. The current crisis of terrorism is actually the result of occupation of Muslim lands in collusion with the corrupt rulers and the resulting sufferings in the region. The people reacting to the neocolonialism are not educated, almost all cannot read and write and therefore are easily being misguided. Americans have not only refused to deal with the basic cause of terrorism they are making it worse.Basically there is no conflict between the ideologies of Islam and Christianity. Christians have extended their generosity to a large number of Muslims as well and millions of Muslims show their gratefulness to them. ( Prof. Yameen Zubairi, USA )
-------------------------------
They have certainly extended it to you, if you are who you claim to be. However, I'm afraid neocolonialism, though it has had disastrous consequences for Pakistan, consequences on which I have posted many times, does not explain its horrors.

No, it does not. Educated Pakistanis, some of whom post on this blog deny the persecution, indeed the caste of the Christians and Hindus, the rapes, murder, systemic poverty to which they are subjected.

I could go on, but this will suffice for now.

Would someone please pay some attention to the zionist windbag, Farnaz Mansouri~! She's literally begging for it :o)

Dr. Khan,

What Prophet Muhammad did was 1400 years ago. Thank you for reproducing the Charter that prophet signed as a treaty.

The problem with Islam should not be seen in an isolated manner between Muslims and Christians.

The problem of Islam is that it has this divine mandate of converting the entire world of unbelief (religions/societal systems other than Islam) to Islam. Many verses in the Quran state this explicitly.
Prophet Muhammad himself waged war against states that refused to accept his soverignity as a ruler endorsed by divinity. And, in that context, the charter speaks the same message. If Christians accepted his authority, which they did, the charter is valid. The Christians who were under his protection as per the charter simply did not have any right to critcize Islam. (Criticism here means being vocally critical of the theological foundations of Islam and not necessarily use of abusive verbiage that is sophomoric.)

We have come a long way. It's been at least 1400 years after Islam was revealed to Prophet Muhammad in 610 A.D. Today the world knows of the Freedom of Speech and Expression (1st Amendment). Can you seriously say that Islam respects freedom of opinion ? This involves two scenarios: in one case a Muslim does things that are un-Islamic, and then repents; in another case a Muslim doesn't do anything bad but publicly criticizes or challenges the foundations of Islam. To my knowledge in most cases a repentant Muslim will be forgiven for his/her un-Islamic acts; in the second case (freedom of opinion) the person will be declared as an apostate and tried per Shariah law.

Am I wrong ?

Happy New Year !

There is a major flaw here, in Islam the icon Allah simply means God; this is the translation of the word God. It does not indicate to a different God (simply translation) and it does not mean that Allah is only for Islam. You need to read the Quran for any references and not a hadeeth. Even in Islam there is no agreement between the sects on the hadeeths. When the Quran says to fight those who do not believe in Allah, this means those who do not believe in God, meaning any faith that believe in the ultimate God is acceptable to Islam. Also, we need to differentiate between religion and politics, no need to explain. Enough of this nonsense.

A timely, historic and brilliantly presented article. The current crisis of terrorism is actually the result of occupation of Muslim lands in collusion with the corrupt rulers and the resulting sufferings in the region. The people reacting to the neocolonialism are not educated, almost all cannot read and write and therefore are easily being misguided. Americans have not only refused to deal with the basic cause of terrorism they are making it worse.Basically there is no conflict between the ideologies of Islam and Christianity. Christians have extended their generosity to a large number of Muslims as well and millions of Muslims show their gratefulness to them. ( Prof. Yameen Zubairi, USA )

islam is a faith that cannot be trusted because islam says it's ok to lie to infidels...

I am grateful to Muslims for saving the icons of St. Catherine's from the crazy Byzantine iconoclasts. I am grateful to them for giving the Jews of Spain refuge. But as the French say, c'est tout! That's it. Islam otherwise condemns infidels to humiliation, violence, and backwardness. If it continues to terrorize us we may have to devise a final solution.

Current dangers facing Christian and other minority women and girls in Pakistan

Under-reported cases of rape against Christian women have occurred. In 2000, the rape of seven Christian women on a bus to Lahore was viewed by the larger Pakistani (Muslim) public as a “deplorable act.” In August 2007, Christian Bishop Arif Khan and his wife were murdered in Islamabad. That same month seven churches and five Christian settlements received threatening letters.

The intimidation of abduction, rape or violence of women and girls from minority religious families adds greatly to their vulnerability. Any legal recourse with police or courts, in working Pakistani law in their favor, is often very limited.

“In the weeks after the Islamabad (March 17, 2002) attack (on the Protestant International Church), I talked to many Pakistani Christians—Catholics, Protestants and Anglicans—in private homes and at dinners and church socials. Several discerned what they described as a larger pattern of violence directed not only at Christians, but at other religious minorities throughout the country,” said David Penault, associate professor at Santa Clara University, California, US.

There have been a number of reported cases of forced marriages of girls from religious minority communities who are under the age of 15. After separation from their family, abductions are framed with the pretext that their conversion to Islam was the reason for their kidnapping. In some cases, there may be a possibility that these are unidentified sex-trafficking kidnappings, but no study to date has been done to confirm this belief yet.

CONTINUED:

The list of abuse against poor Christian minority women and girls is long.

“Law enforcement personnel abused religious minorities in custody,” said the 2008 International Religious Freedom Report by the US Department of State. “Security forces and other government agencies did not adequately prevent or address societal abuse against minorities,” continued the report. “Discriminatory legislation and the Government’s failure to take action against societal forces hostile to those who practice a different religious belief fostered religious intolerance, acts of violence, and intimidation against religious minorities.”

Legislative tightening, Blasphemy Laws and Hadood Ordinances

In a reversal of restrictions under laws covering accusations by a husband against his wife in adultery, the Protection of Women (Criminal Laws Amendment) Act, had the intention to free 2,500 women from Pakistan jails in 2006. Unfortunately, this was not completed. Following this improvement, a more conservative interpretation of the law, through Shar’ia based legislation, was given more emphasis, causing greater restrictions in the courts.

As legal doors closed again more tightly, Christian women suffering from extreme poverty were left dangling in a forgotten field of legal ambiguity, no protection and “non-personhood.”

Even with the measured 2006 attempt to ease the 1979 Hadood Ordinances, which now allow women to report domestic violence and rape with one instead of the previously required three male witnesses, women still do not feel safe stepping forward to press their case. Blasphemy laws, that sanction anyone criticizing Islam also inflicts intimidation under the sentence of death by stoning. Stoning as a sentence in Pakistan’s courts has been used as punitive measures in quarrels against neighbors and against religious minorities.

For protection, minority women and their families, whether poor or middle class, often try to hide or mask their religious beliefs for safety at work and in public.

“Pakistan’s blasphemy laws are so vaguely formulated that they encourage, and in fact invite, the persecution of religious minorities or non-conforming members of [the] Muslim majority,” said human rights advocates, Amnesty International.

CONTINUED:

Under reported cases of rape and torture of religious minority women and girls presents an ever present human rights crisis. Police corruption, along with abysmal Pakistani prison and jail conditions, creates an atmosphere of intimidation and non-accountability.

“Religious minorities need more than just fair treatment under the law, they also require visible cooperation from the police and authorities, to prevent mob justice taking over,” said Settlement Director, Nasir Saeed of (CLAAS) Center for Legal Aid Assistance, which has an office in Lahore and London.

In Oct 2007, Dr. Ms. Asma Jahangir, the now UN Special Rapporteur for UN Commission on Human Rights said, “The NWFP (North-West Frontier Province, Pakistan) presents a disturbing picture of religious militancy that is increasingly manifesting itself in vigilante actions against the population and creating widespread fear… The government has continuously refused to heed complaints and warnings from both the public and civil society organizations and has adopted a policy of appeasement of militants.”

CONTINUED:

“The government has chosen to look the other way when the militants have blown up girls’ schools and video shops, threatened teachers, students, doctors, nurses, NGO workers and barbers,” added Jahangir.

In Pakistan, there’s a very high price to pay for poor Christian women and their families - all part of the minority. This video shows unliveable conditions in Islamabad’s French Quarter, a sordid slum where Dalit Christians try to survive. See this 11:16 min April 16, 2009, France24 News video.
____________________________________________

For more information on this topic go to:

Annual Report – Pakistan, 2009 – International States Commission on International Religious Freedom

Religious Minorities in Pakistan by Dr. Iftikhar H. Malik – Minority Rights Group International, 2002

State of the World’s Minorities 2008 – Pakistan – UNHCR, RefWorld

How wealth/poverty affects the treatment of Christian women in Pakistan by Anna-Joy Alves - International Development Department, School of Public Policy, The University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, United Kingdom, 2006

___________________________________________________________

2007 Pushcart prize nominee, Lys Anzia, is a humanitarian journalist working on women’s rights and advocacy issues worldwide. She is also Editor-At-Large for Women News Network – WNN and current executive director for World Voice International.

_______________________________________________

Sources for this article include ReliefWeb, UNESCO, USAID, BBC News, UN Girls Education Initiative, Asian Human Rights Commission, Emory University, In These Times, The World Bank, CNS – Catholic News Service, USCIS, WLUML, UNHCR, Sindh Today, PILDAT, Aljazeera News, USCIRF, ActionAid, CLAAS, US Department of State, The Catholic Voice, Minority Rights Group International, The Malaysian Insider, Riz Khan – Aljazeera TV, AFP news
________________________________________
©Women News Network – WNN 2009

Filed under Women News Network - WNN, Women's News, human rights news, women humanitarian news, women's advocacy, women's advocacy news, women's feminist news, women's global news, women's international news, women's rights news, women's world news

http://womennewsnetwork.net/2009/05/18/pcw812/

IS this guy serious with this ridiculous article? And who is paying this guy, the taxpayers of Delaware?

Oh yeah, I remember all the "moderate" muslim voices quoting this edict in the aftermath of 9/11.

Religion isn't the problem -- it's man's interpretation of religion that causes trouble. Any time you have a group believing that theirs is the "one true religion," heartbreak ensues.

"because Christians are my citizens"

This is the operative clause in this whole disingenuous diatribe.
First of all, the Christians were in that area long before the molsems invaded.

The temerity of muhammed in saying that the Christians belonged to him, speaks to the successful invasion and the chattel status of lesser beings.

The following 1400 years of nonstop brutality and subjugation are the true narrative.

This article represents the cunning and crafty way in which the apologists dupe the unwary - and the willing.

There is a major flaw here, in Islam the icon Allah simply means God; this is the translation of the word God. It does not indicate to a different God (simply translation) and it does not mean that Allah is only for Islam. You need to read the Quran for any references and not a hadeeth. Even in Islam there is no agreement between the sects on the hadeeths. When the Quran says to fight those who do not believe in Allah, this means those who do not believe in God, meaning any faith that believe in the ultimate God is acceptable to Islam. Also, we need to differentiate between religion and politics, no need to explain. Enough of this nonsense.

Dr. K,

Thank you for posting this. I apologise on behalf of the commenters who would call themselves Christians.

Muhammed's protection of St. Catherine's (and by extension all Christianity) with this charter is commendable and ought to be emulated by currently living Muslims and Christians. Those who are serious about biblical study know that without the manuscripts from St. C's we would know less about the Bible and early Christianity than we do now. I am grateful they were protected.

It's apparent that your critics are not really Pro-Life or they would have at least been grateful for the protection of St. Catherines and the lives of its Christians.

Jesus speaks quite a bit about forgiveness, turning the other cheek, and praying for one's enemies. If any of the commenters consider themselves Christians, I hope they might realize they have promoted hate over love (and acc. to 1 John, God is Love).

While there have been killers who hide behind Islam, more Amnerican lives have been saved by Muslims than killed by Muslims. And, sadly, in the USA, more Christians have been killed by other Christians than by anyone else. Similarly, in Pakistan more Muslims have been killed by Muslims than by Christians. Both groups need to emphasize their teachings on the sanctity of life, including that of their co-religionists.

You must have known you would be villified by these commenters and I admire your courage. If the current cycle of violence is to be broken, then we must find common ground, like the Charter, where we can.

Again, I apologise for the miserable remarks by people who are unwilling to risk forgiveness, repentance, or peace. May we actively seek peace.

Semper Pax, Dr. Z

It makes no difference what Muhammed is claimed to say or did not say. It makes no difference what the "interpretations" of the words in the Koran are supposed to mean. What matters is that Muslims as a group are by far the most brutal. murdering and hateful people in this world. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

Muhammad did not attack the Christians because they were a minority. It is true there were instances when Muhammad di not force Muhammadanism on non-Muslims. For example his uncle was Abu Lahab, a Christian. Becuse Lahab had exposed Muhammad as a fraud Muhammad invoked the Arabic idol allah to send fortha revelation condemning Lahab and his wife. Muhammad made the idol say that Lahab's wife would have a rope burning around her neck. This is from the Koran. Muhammad's greatest crime was associating the idol Allah with God.

He also did not force two of his concubines, Maria and Rayhan, to become Muslims. Both were teenagers when the nearly sixty year old Muhammad, added them to his harem. He impregnated the Christain Maria but the son out of wedlock, Ibrahim, died in infancy.

Rayhan was also a 15 year old Jewish widow whose husband Muhammad had murdered. He added her to his harem the same night her husband was killed.

Moe did no marry the two children because of their refusal to become Muslims. Maria was however elevated in status because she bore Muhammad a child. She became an UMM WALAAD. Srt of an honorary wife.

December 30, 2009, 11:46 am

Christian employees face police case and torture by TMA on Christmas Day in Pakistan.

Pakpattan: December 29, 2009. (PCP) A Muslim Sanitary Inspector of Tehsil Municipal Administration TMA was beating and openly manhandling Christian Sanitary workers in broad daylight on streets of Pakpattan city of Punjab province who were insisting to go for prayers on 25th December, the Day of Christmas in Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

When poor Christian employees of TMA reached to lodge complain on inhuman behavior and beating of Sanitary Inspector Mohammad Attique Butt, DCO Pakpattan ordered police to register case against Christians.

The Punjab Government and Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif had proudly announced holiday for Christian employees for December 25 and 26, a two day leave with pay for thousands of Christian employees to celebrate Christmas.

The Tehsil Municipal Officer Pakpattan Mohammad Aslam Gujar and Sanitary Inspector Mohammad Attique Butt forced Christian employees to clean roads of Pakpattan city instead of going for prayers on Christmas Day defying orders of Christmas Holidays announced by Chief Minister of Punjab Government.

When All Christian Communities Alliance ACCA President Javeed Sahotra, Secretary General Nadeem Hamid Gill along with other leaders Khalid Nazir and Sabar Masih intervened in matter to get relief for Christian employees, the TMO Mohammad Aslam Gujar refused to listen their plea and denied Christians to offer their Christmas prayers.

The poor Christian Sanitary workers started cleaning streets and roads on Christmas Day and were crying with tears “ Listen to our Voice Masihia” “ Free us from slavery” “Why it is Black Christmas for us”

The All Christian Community Alliance ACCA team started video recording of crying Christians who were cleaning streets and weeping but Sanitary Inspector Attique Butt called other Muslims and snatched camera and took out cassette and threatened ACCA team of dire consequences.

The DCO instead of listening to Christian employees directed police to register case against Christian employees and 5 other Christians. In FIR number 908/2009, under section 186 and 427 Pakistan Penal Code registered in Pakpattan City Police Station have charged ACCA leaders Sarfraz Masih, Nadeem Hameed, Sunny Barkat, Rawal Barkat and Hamed Masih while Christian employees Daniel Masih, Saleem Masih, Sarfraz Masih and others have been charged.

Mr. Javeed Sahotra Advocate, President of ACCA have strongly condemned torture of Christian employees and enforced working on official Christmas holidays.

CONTINUED:

He appealed to Chief Minister of Punjab to take action and cancel FIR against innocent poor Christian employees.

Dr. Nazir S Bhatti, President of Pakistan Christian Congress PCC expressed grave concern on broad day light beating by Muslim Sanitary Inspector and treating Christian employees like bonded labour on Christmas Day.

“Listen voice of voiceless Christians in Pakistan being treated like slaves by Muslims in every walk of life that we are human beings not animals, stop oppression and persecution and give us due equal rights until it is too late” said Nazir Bhatti

Nazir Bhatt said Christians of Pakistan were demanding FIR against Muslim Attackers of Kalar Kahar on injuring 65 Christians on Christmas day but not any FIR was lodged while in Pakpattan Christians were beaten and charged in FIR by Muslims.

Nazir S Bhatti, Chief of PCC urged Chief Minister of Punjab to withdraw false FIR against Christians and take immediate action against Mohammad Attique Butt and TNO Mohammad Aslam Gujar of Pakpattan TMA.

The murder of Asma by Muhammad's men upon his his orders was an instance of the murder of an individual.

The hadiths and the biographies also narrate mass murders committed by Muhammad and his men.

Muhammad and his gang of thugs in one evening massacred the entire adult male Jew members of the Banu Qurayza tribe. His excuse was that they were plotting against him and that the Arabic idol allah had commanded him to murder them. In fact they had never raised arms against him. Their crime was that they were rich through farming and plantations whereas Muhammad raided caravans to earn a living. A divine bandit!!!

the real reason for the massacre was therefore the wealth and the land of the Jews that Muhammad coveted. After murdering 800 men he sold the orphans and widows into slavery, thus earning more money. Their land and other property was his although as commanded by the idol Allah 20% of the booty was given to the members of his gang.

One widow, the 15 year old Rayhana, became the nearly 60 year old Muhammad's slave concubine. he did not marry her because she refused to convert to Islam. he did not force her we must admit Muhammad was not all that bad. Today's Muslims would have forced her to become Muslim.

The test for whether a male was an adult or not was the presence of pubic hair. Male children as young as 12 were beheaded and their bodies buried in a trench dug by the Islamic thugs. Again narrated in the hadiths.

One wonders if Muhammad had never been born and the Jews had retained their share of the Arabic peninsula there would be the turmoil in the mid-east that is there now. Most likely Arabia would be the land of innovators in the manner that Israel is and not the financier of terrorism.

Posted by: jailkkhosla | December 30, 2009 6:18 AM

To understand the Muslim/Muhammadan mind, one must read the biographies and the hadiths that detail Muhammad's action.

Muhammad founded Islam with violence including violence against the unarmed. One of the people he had murdered was Asma bint Marwan, a poetess who had exposed Muhammad as a fraud. She was murdered while sleeping with her infants. Muhammad praised the killer. Muhammad had asked for her murder.

To Muhammadans, Muhammad is the paragon of virtue. they believe that Asma was murdered upon the orders of their Arabic god Allah. They believe that Allah acted thru Muhammad and the murder of Asma to them was a divinely commanded act even though Asma was unarmed.

The Asma murder is only one of the many murders that were commited by Muhammad or ordered by him, of unarmed humans. He and his men once wiped out 800 unarmed Jews of teh Banu Quraiza tribe and then claimed that his idol Allah had ordered it.

As long as we have Muslims who look up to Muhammad and his actions as examples to follow, there will be terrorism in this world.

Posted by: jailkkhosla | December 30, 2009 5:00 AM

Both religions worship the same God. If he were really there, he would not be very happy with any of his followers. They kill each other with abandon over trivialities. It's up for debate if this is just proof of the falsity of the religions of Abrahamic decent, or a pervasive influence of evil.

My take is that it's proof of the former. What I do know is that no deity will send a representative to the "Holy Land", as there's nothing holy about a place that's been a blood soaked nightmare for most of it's history.

I wish all three major branches of this faith, and their subdivisions would learn peace and tolerance. I doubt it will happen because too much of this is about temporal power and money.

I watch as over, and over people betray the teachings of their prophets, the laws and writings they're founded on, and selectively use what they want to visit horrible violence on others.

There is no war that is a holy war. All wars are a mark of unholy and evil actions on the part of the people who start them with a guise of religion.

Christan hatred is possibly more widespread that Islamic hatred. It's a toss up who betrays their God more. In any case, they're sides of the same coin.

This is possibly one of the most important edicts of Muhammad (pbuh), and possibly one of the most purposefully ignored as well.

Christans are not without fault either, they call Christ the "Prince of Peace" yet their followers spew bile and hatred at any other religion, and at sects they don't agree with.

These hate based activities lay bare the falsity of their followers faith & commitment to following the laws common to Islam, Christianity, & Judaism. They call into question the core validity of all of these faiths.

False promises begin at the top.

Dr. Khan,

Nice piece of apologetics.

However, I think your's would be more effective column if you submitted it to Jeddah's Saudi Gazette (where it's illegal to practice Christianity, possess a Bible or wear a Christian cross) or the Cairo Times (in Egypt, where Copts are persecuted, murdered, and daughters are kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam).

We in the U.S., thanks to our Constitution, already accept the basic right of individuals to practice their religion without persecution. We don't need to be convinced in the Washington Post; take your column where it may do some good.

Khan Sahib,
No one believes in this nonsense anymore, only Muslims who are in denial. Your Mohammed was a war monger and fought 69 wars during his lifetime. He forgave no one and loved none. Proof of his warring nature exists in every islamic state today, there is no tolerance of minorities in any Islamic state. Mohammeds Mecca bans the presence of any non-muslim, how can you make us believe in this gibberish.

Dr. Khan,

Thank you for this wonderful article. In my presentations on interfaith dialogue in Philadelphia region, I aften refer to Prophet Muhammaed's (peace be upon him) historic promise to St. Catherine's Monastery.

I agree with you that both Musims and Christians need to be reminded about the events during the life of the Prophet that foster the relationship between these two great Abrahamic faiths.

Prophet Muhammaed,s (peace be upon him) message to the Christians is clearly in keeping with the 7th century Quranic teachings (when the concept of trinity was already established) about Abrahamic faiths. In second chapter verse 62 Quran says, "Be they Muslims, Jews, Christians or Sabians, those who believe in God and the last Day and those who do good have they reward with their Lord. They have nothing to fear and they will not sorrow".

The words of Allah in the Quran are clear. And then those who want to mislead have to deal with the Tafsirs (exegesis on the Quran) over the last 1400 years, and all the great Imams of the past agree that Muslims should not take christians and jews for "friends or protectors" and that they are destined for hell. Only Islam is the religion that is acceptable to Allah. Trying to lie and cover up simple facts that are redily available to any one with a simple search engine is mere stupdity. If we want to live together peacefully on this small planet then we need to be honest to ourselves and to the other. Muslims need to come to terms with the deep deep hatred for the non-muslims that is integral to the DNA of the Quran and the Hadeeth. Islam's Allah vents anger at the jews and the christians repeatedly and distinguishes Quran from the other "revelations" that he claims have distorted.
Muslims do not and cannot respect the jews or the christians without going against the central tenant of Islam: the reason of Muhammad's Quran is precisely because the christians and the jews distorted Allah's commands.

003.028
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
003.118
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom.
005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
009.023
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.
005.080
YUSUFALI: Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers. Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.

If this pact is legitimate it would have been specific for St. Catherine monastery, and such alleged promise was not respected for any length of time because the place was looted many times during Mohammad’s life even with the presence of a large Roman garrison.

Claim:
“By ordering Muslims to obey it until the Day of Judgment the charter again undermines any future attempts to revoke the privileges.”
Moi:
Omar ibn el Khattab, the companion and father-in-law of the prophet and his second Caliph had penned a manual for the mistreatment of Christians and Jews in their own trashed and looted lands that is the embodiment of the worst in the human nature.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

It is true that these creative ways in demeaning humans was legislated by the (just)Caliph but the order to humiliate and impoverish was Mohammad’s as he penned it in Quran 9:29
“Fight those who believe not
In Allah nor the Last Day
Nor hold that forbidden
Which hath been forbidden
By Allah and His Apostle
Nor acknowledge the Religion
Of Truth(even if they are)
Of the People of the Book,
Until they pay the Jizya(exhorbitant Tax)
With willing submission.
And feel themselves subdued.”

Claim:
“A remarkable aspect of the charter is that it imposes no conditions on Christians for enjoying its privileges. It is enough that they are Christians. They are not required to alter their beliefs, they do not have to make any payments and they do not have any obligations. This is a charter of rights without any duties.”

Moi:
Refer back to Quran 9:29 and Omar Pact above.

Muqtedar Khan:

You left out some critical passages re the Christians, and I have read the Quoran in Arabic, more than once. Speaking of which, to what do you attribute the gross mistranslations, omissions, insertions in English by Muslim translators?

Oh, and Muqtedar Khan, what does Quoran say about Jews and Hindus.

A more accurate and balanced peace on Quoranic views of these three religions, along with comments on the Hadiths, would be more persuasive, if less encouraging.

Dr. Khan,

I am pleased to read this and see a copy of the original document.

By the way Qur'aan was paid to be mistranslate by the European Kings to paint Muslims in the bad light, to protect their own empire, but used the name of their religion; christianity.

If we can assertively bring this up, may be we can mitigate the conflicts and nurture goodwill to create the peace all of us want.

Most of the scholars of Islam, who are not Muslim rest their research on that false foundation. I gave a power point presentation at the Parliament of World's religions at Melbourne on the subject. Here is partial information on the topic.

http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/01/unlike-jews-or-christians-17.html

Looks like Huckabees aren't along among the children of Abraham who like to pick-and-choose, obey-or-ignore scriptures and holy documents as it suits them.

Muqtedar Khan, thank you for this amazing piece of Information. I hope this article doesn't stop at Washington Post and reaches the Arabic Press as well as Urdu Newspapers here in Pakistan. There are a lot of false notions spread about Jews and Christians by reactionary mullahs citing some verses from the Quran taken out of context. Sure there's a conflict going on in some parts of the world where Christians, Muslims and Jews are standing face to face against each other but infact there are more things that bind us together than those that separate us. We are told to revere their Prophets just like we respect Prophet Muhammad. Issa, Moosa, Yahya, Yousuf, Younus, Ishaq all of them common names amongst muslims, are Jewish and Christian Prophets. Christians and Jews are infact our cousins. If they were our enemies why would Islam allow inter marriages with them. I remember a beautiful incident from the early days of Islam, when the muslims decided to flee from excesses of the Quraish of Mecca, the first country the fled to was the Christian Kingdom of Abbysinia (Ethiopia). The King declined to handover these Muslims to the Quraish of Mecca giving them State protection. The muslims sort of returned the favor in a sense as in no muslim general or king ever dared to give the order for invasion of Ehiopia inspite of the fact that all states around Ethiopia became part of the Islamic Empire. It to this day remains a Christian majority country surrounded by Islamic states all around it. The one verse every muslim is obligated to say five times a day in every prayer asks God to have mercy not just on the Ummah of Prophet Muhammad but infact on the Ummah of Prophet Abraham. We all know that the Ummah of Prophet Abaraham includes both Jews and Christians.

Dear Muqtedar Khan,
Associate Professor.

Would you please show The Original Document.
Is there any Original Document of The Founder which lives up to present day.
Please,please....

Lets suppose,it's a Geniune and Original Document.What changes,what changes.
The Commands of Allah absolutely inscribed in Book of Allah.
Theology 1 - Nobody can change,even dare to change Commands of Allah.
Theology 2 - Quranic Verses can not be replaced by the Founder's word and acts.

Monastery is the Center of Trinity.
Monastery is the Place of Son of God Education.
What Book of Allah says about Trinity,Son of God,Second Coming is Indisputable.

We can not arrive at anywhere by Fake and Fabricated Documents.

Happy New Year.