I do not mind what you think about me, but do not mis-understand Islam.
By sincere dialouge our aim should be to reach the truth,rather to put allegations on eachother.

If you wish to find what actually Islam is,
go to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckfp4IKAN2M&feature=channel

ccnl,
it's kind of funny that you post the bible references as evidence for jesus. i mean, according to that criteria you'd have to grant that nihursag, enki, moses, ashera (sp?), zeus and thor are real. there's just WAY too much scripture for it all to be true.

Farnaz1Mansouri1,

"Frankly, I expected more for from you, but, you've only recently started blogging here, and one never knows.
Too bad. Frankly, I am disappointed."

well, gee, sorry to disappoint. i'll do my best to redeem myself in your eyes - cause that's really important to me.

"The only one "projecting" around here is you. You think you can take back the anti-Islamic statements you made right on this thread, and continually since you've been blogging, by attacking me."

i'm not sure where you think i'm attacking you? perhaps the pseudonym thing? you seem a little hypersensitive on this topic. i'm just expressing the same disappointment i've seen you express at conversations that get "hijacked" but off-topic comments or comments about poster's identities. i think it's very tiresome. i understand posting under mulitple names is against the rules, so i don't like it for that reason. but really i don't care if someone's posting as two people - creating a faux socratic dialectic.

"I'm sorry if my calling your attention to your very words regarding your "disdain for Islam" upsets you. But those are your words."

no apologies necessary here. and i make no apologies for my previous expressions of disdain for islam. of the 3 abrahamic religions (or the one judeochrislamic one...), i think it's clearly the worst - especially given that it was the one made up most recently. one would hope morals would have progressed over time...but...alas, as captured in the koran and hadith, they apparently regressed.

now, i haven't gotten to know all the people who post here, so forgive me for giving shark2 the opportunity to tell me his views. also, i don't hold their "islamic" views against any muslim who's posted here. in fact, given their scripture, i think the fact that they apparently don't bomb people is a testament to their innate high moral character.

just because i ask the same questions of hsnkhwj and shark2 and asizk doesn't mean i "lump them together". i want to hear different perspectives.

Abhab,

Thank you for the posting. Bosnia in a number of ways, has been an oasis against extremism of the shark2 type.

It is good that it is acting to protect itself.

Farnaz

"Farnaz1Mansouri1,
you sure enjoy speculating (projecting?) on ulterior motives of posters, and speculating (projecting) on who's posting under what name."

Nice try, Walter, very nice. However, it is CCNL who has been doing this for a long time as everyone knows. And if you want him as your ally, welcome to him.

He feels the same about Muslims as you do.

Frankly, I expected more for from you, but, you've only recently started blogging here, and one never knows.

Too bad. Frankly, I am disappointed. The only one "projecting" around here is you. You think you can take back the anti-Islamic statements you made right on this thread, and continually since you've been blogging, by attacking me.

I'm sorry if my calling your attention to your very words regarding your "disdain for Islam" upsets you. But those are your words.

"Disdain," please keep in mind, is something you share with Shark2 and others.

Worth a thought. I'm not going to try to bully you because I am not like what you appear to be. I call it like a see it, don't try to erase what I've said, mislead bloggers like hsnkhwj that you are chatting with her in good faith.

You did that, Walter, not I.

Walter,

Do you enjoy spreading confusing? Can you not make distinctions? Shark2 is an arrogant, presumptuous illiterate Talib, who has nothing whatosever to do with
hsnkhwj with whom you lump him: he is not only "immoderate," but an illiterate bigot, no matter who he gets to translate for him. He's been on this blog for years and no one gives him the time of day until he goes too far.

Jesus, in Islam, was one of the four Rasul. He was a man. According to Islam anyone who worships him as the son of God, e.g., the Christians, is doomed, period.

About Musa (Moses), more is written in the Quoran than about other figure, save Muhammed. Why does Shark2 ignore him? Because this piece of work is terrified of the Christians; they outnumber him. He betrays his religion, and is an idoloator, in Judaism and following it, the worst you can be, an idolator. Kisses up because he's skeered. That is all.

Azisk is a hypocritical Turkish, who conveniently forgets the Kurds, among other people.

Please, Walter, learn to make distinctions. There are extremists among all religions. What I express concern about is quite clear, your contempt for Islam. There are those who deserve contempt. Not the entire religion.

Do not, please, identify illiterate Talib (Taliban) like Shark2, who presumes to educate you (!!) with Islam.

Some people played teacher teacher on these blogs.
They imagine them in a class where they can chide their students. Tell some of them they are semi-litrate or totally illitrate.
Actions speaks louder than words. Donkeys laiden with books do not become a scholar.
Act on any moral virtue in real life and you will be tested then speak and tell what is knowledge and how you mock the others.

More strongly I find after discussion on these blogs, how wonderful is Islam, something that can bring a revolution in anyone's life who freely wish to follow it.

Listen to British journalist yvonne ridley
what she has to tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFZrSPUoH3I

Farnaz1Mansouri1,
you chide me for "giggling" at ccnl's post about muslim instructions for farting during prayer?! i plead guilty. i just checked to make sure ccnl wasn't making that stuff up and i learned a new word: "hadath". learned a bit about snoring rules too. funny stuff...

now, just because i think that stuff is funny, doesn't mean i don't think hsnkhwj et. al. are bad people. it's unfortunate they're "saddled" with religious rules about farting but they can rise above it.

despite recent bosnian problems, that is the perfect kind of example of u.s. "military might". it showed, in principle, how america is not against muslims per se, just the "bad" ones. and, it shows that we help muslims when their cause is just. the problem is those cases are few and far between. it seems to me like muslims are mostly the instigators of problems out there. of course often one group of muslims causes trouble for another group of muslims - for instance, swat valley. and clinton just outlined what we're doing to help muslim refugees of muslim religious violence.

in this way, the pakistan's earthquakes and the indonesian tsunami were great things for the u.s.. we got to rush to the aid of regular muslims. hopefully some of those people we helped were moderate muslims.

divide and conquer has got to be the plan. we have to help moderates turn against militants. and we're trying REALLY HARD. we've spent $1,000,000,000,000 lately because of muslim problems...

those "moderate" muslims out there have to do more. they're hard to find because the koran makes it so easy to be militant. they have so much "baggage" (koran, sharia, culture, religious governments) to overcome.

shark2, hsnkhwj, asizk, other muslims especially living oversea:

MOBILIZE - do it. you need a civil rights movements. where is your martin luther king? it will be dangerous. some will die. moral dissidents are jailed in immoral societies. MLK was killed for what he did. march on tehran!

Al Jazeera reported today (May 26, 2009) that the Bosnian authorities have decided to deport all those so-called Arab fighters; the Jihadists who volunteered to fight on Bosnia’s side in the Bosnia- Serb war. This is despite the fact that most of those men have been living there for years and are married to Bosnian women.
Bosnia is a Muslim majority entity that fought a bitter civil war to secede from Serbia.
What made the Bosnians secession successful was the USA intervention. Here are a number of lessons to heed by everyone; the Europeans, the Americans , the Muslim and the Arabs.

Abu Hurairah reported Allah's Messenger (PBUH) as saying, "I am the nearest of kin to Jesus, son of Mary, in this world and the next. The prophets are brothers, sons of one father by co-wives. Their mothers are different but their religion is one. There has been no prophet between us". (Bukhari and Muslim).

· Abu Hurairah reported Allah's Messenger (PBUH) as saying," By Him in whose hand my soul is, the son of Mary will soon descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish the jizya (a tax payable by a community which accepts the protection of a Muslim ruler but whose members do not embrace Islam), and wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it, and one sajda (the position in Muslim’s prayer where the forehead is placed on the ground), will be better than the world and what it contains". (Bukahri and Muslim).

Spreading doubts is evil.
Spreading confusion is evil
Jesus was a mighty messenger of Allah, he existed and was given miricles, he was the son of Mary,the most pious lady on the face of this earth.

He was against money lenders which is a source of expliotation and mischief.

Farnaz1Mansouri1,
you sure enjoy speculating (projecting?) on ulterior motives of posters, and speculating (projecting) on who's posting under what name.

you said something to me to the effect of: "you reject moses, but must have a historical jesus."

if you read my comments you'll see that i said the historicity of jesus is not important. it's his MIRACLES that christians have fallen in love with. i don't care whether there was a "jesus" in 1st century palestine, and josephus is one of many to have a character names "jesus" appear in his writings. apparently is was a pretty common name. but i'm pretty sure there was not a "jesus" who turned water to wine, did the fish/loaves thing, cursed those poor pigs, and was resurrected. i mean that jesus may have existed in the sense that "paul bunyan" existed in frontier america.

Perhaps of interest:

Another hallucinating Rasul was the great "Babs". He is not mentioned in the koran thereby "Babs' followers, the Baha'ists, are considered infidels by Islam. And we know what Islamics do to infidels.

Perhaps, of interest:

The meaning of the word Rasul is a messenger. The Rasul were prophets in direct communication with God. Allah sent many prophets and messengers to mankind. Amongst them, the names of twenty-five are mentioned in the Qur'an. From within the list, the Qur'an states the names of five Rasul who are the Mighty ones. These are: Nuh (Noah), Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), Isa (Jesus), and Muhammed.

To summarize:

So exactly what did Jesus (if he existed) teach that was not said before? Not much!!!!

Good Christians (and Muslims, Jews, Baha'ists, pagans et al) follow the codes, laws, good sayings and good examples of the ancients. We are no longer brainwashed with visitations from "pretty wingie thingies"s, "miracles", hallucinating founders and "wishful thinking". The competition with the Caesars and the Greeks and their gods is over!!!!!!!

Jesus Was Caesar: On the Julian Origin of Christianity: An Investigative Report by Francesco Carotta (Paperback - Jan 1, 2005)

Available at Amazon, but very pricey. Also in libraries.

For Those Interested in Recent Scholarship on the Challenging the Historical Jesus (in Islam = Isa)

John G. Jackson, 1933, Was Jesus Christ a Negro? 1937, Introduction To African Civilizations. 1941, Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth. 1970 Man, God, and Civilization. 1985, Christianity Before Christ. Most influential Black Atheist drew attention to the Ethiopian and Egyptian precedents of Christian belief.

Edouard Dujardin, 1938, Ancient History of the God Jesus.

Alvin Boyd Kuhn, 1944, Who is this King of Glory? 1970, Rebirth for Christianity. Jesus was never a person, but a symbol of the divine soul in every human being.

Herbert Cutner, 1950, Jesus: God, Man, or Myth? Mythical nature of Jesus and a summary of the ongoing debate between mythicists and historicizers. Mythic-only position is continuous tradition, not novel. Pagan origins of Christ.

Georges Las Vergnas, 1956, Pourquoi j'ai quitté l'Eglise romaine Besançon. 1958, Jésus-Christ a-t-il existé? Vicar general of the diocese of Limoges who lost his faith. Argues that the central figure of Christianity had no historical existence.

Georges Ory, 1961, An Analysis of Christian Origins.

Guy Fau, 1967, Le Fable de Jesus Christ.

John Allegro, 1970, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross. 1979, The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth. Jesus was nothing other than a magic mushroom and his life an allegorical interpretation of a drug-induced state. Not jail for Allegro – but professional ruin.

George Albert Wells, 1975, Did Jesus Exist? 1988, The Historical Evidence for Jesus. 1996, The Jesus Legend. 1998, Jesus Myth. 2004, Can We Trust the New Testament? Thoughts on the Reliability of Early Christian Testimony. Christianity a growth from Jewish Wisdom literature. Later books concede possible influence of a real preacher.

Part IA

Max Rieser, 1979, The True Founder of Christianity and the Hellenistic Philosophy. Christianity started by Jews of the Diaspora and then retroactively set in pre-70 Palestine. Christianity arrived last, not first, in Palestine – that's why Christian archeological finds appear in Rome but not in Judea until the 4th century.

Abelard Reuchlin, 1979, The True Authorship of the New Testament. Conspiracy theory par excellence: Roman aristocrat Arius Calpurnius Piso (aka "Flavius Josephus") conspired to gain control of the Roman Empire by forging an entirely new religion.

Karlheinz Deschner, 1986-2004, The Criminal History of Christianity, Volumes 1-8. A leading German critic of religion and the Church. In 1971 Deschner was called before a court in Nuremberg, charged with "insulting the Church."

Hermann Detering, 1992, Paulusbriefe ohne Paulus?: Die Paulusbriefe in der holländischen Radikalkritik. German minister in the Dutch radical tradition. No Jesus and no Paul.

Gary Courtney, 1992, 2004 Et tu, Judas? Then Fall Jesus! The Passion is essentially Caesar's fate in Judaic disguise, grafted onto the dying/resurrcting cult of Attis. Jewish fans of Caesar assimilated the sacrificed 'saviour of mankind' into the 'Suffering Servant' of Isaiah.

Michael Kalopoulos, 1995, The Great Lie. Greek historian finds strikingly similar parallels between biblical texts and Greek mythology. He exposes the cunning, deceitful and authoritarian nature of religion.

Gerd Lüdemann, 1998, The Great Deception: And What Jesus Really Said and Did. 2002, Paul: The Founder of Christianity. 2004, The Resurrection Of Christ: A Historical Inquiry. After 25 years of study German professor concluded Paul, not Jesus, started Christianity. Lüdemann was expelled from the theology faculty at the University of Göttingen for daring to say that the Resurrection was "a pious self-deception." So much for academic freedom.

Alvar Ellegard, 1999, Jesus One Hundred Years Before Christ. Christianity seen as emerging from the Essene Church of God with the Jesus prototype the Teacher of Righteousness

Part II
D. Murdock (aka 'Acharya S') 1999, The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold. 2004, Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled. Adds a astro-theological dimension to christ-myth demolition. Murdock identifies JC as a composite deity used to unify the Roman Empire.

Earl Doherty, 1999, The Jesus Puzzle. Did Christianity Begin with a Mythical Christ? Powerful statement of how Christianity started as a mystical-revelatory Jewish sect – no Jesus required!.

Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy, 1999, The Jesus Mysteries. 2001, Jesus and the Lost Goddess : The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians. Examines the close relationship between the Jesus Story and that of Osiris-Dionysus. Jesus and Mary Magdalene mythic figures based on the Pagan Godman and Goddess.

Harold Liedner, 2000, The Fabrication of the Christ Myth. Anachronisms and geographic errors of the gospels denounced. Christianity one of history's most effective frauds.

Robert Price, 2000, Deconstructing Jesus. 2003 Incredible Shrinking Son of Man: How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition? Ex-minister and accredited scholar shows Jesus to be a fictional amalgam of several 1st century prophets, mystery cult redeemers and gnostic 'aions'.

Hal Childs, 2000, The Myth of the Historical Jesus and the Evolution of Consciousness. A psychotherapist take on the godman.

Michael Hoffman, 2000, Philosopher and theorist of "ego death" who jettisoned an historical Jesus.

Part III
Burton Mack, 2001,The Christian Myth: Origins, Logic, and Legacy. Social formation of myth making.

Luigi Cascioli, 2001, The Fable of Christ. Indicting the Papacy for profiteering from a fraud!

Frank R. Zindler, 2003, The Jesus the Jews Never Knew: Sepher Toldoth Yeshu and the Quest of the Historical Jesus in Jewish Sources. No evidence in Jewish sources for the phantom messiah.

Daniel Unterbrink, 2004, Judas the Galilean. The Flesh and Blood Jesus. Parallels between the tax rebel of 6 AD and the phantom of the Gospels explored in detail. 'Judas is Jesus'. Well, part of Jesus, no doubt.

Tom Harpur, 2005, The Pagan Christ: Recovering the Lost Light. Canadian New Testament scholar and ex-Anglican priest re-states the ideas of Kuhn, Higgins and Massey. Jesus is a myth and all of the essential ideas of Christianity originated in Egypt.

Francesco Carotta, 2005, Jesus Was Caesar: On the Julian Origin of Christianity. Exhaustive inventory of parallels. Alarmingly, asserts Caesar was Jesus.

Joseph Atwill, 2005, Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus. Another take on the Josephus-Gospel similarities. Atwill argues that the 1st century conquerors of Judaea, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian, used Hellenized Jews to manufacture the "Christian" texts in order to establish a peaceful alternative to militant Judaism. Jesus was Titus Flavius? I don't think so.

Michel Onfray, 2005, Traité d'athéologie (2007 In Defence of Atheism) French philosopher argues for a positive atheism, debunking an historical Jesus along the way.

Jay Raskin, 2006, The Evolution of Christs and Christianities. Academic and erstwhile filmaker Raskin looks beyond the official smokescreen of Eusebius and finds a fragmented Christ movement and a composite Christ figure, crafted from several literary and historical characters. Speculates that the earliest layer of myth-making was a play written by a woman called Mary. Maybe.

Thomas L. Thompson, 2006, The Messiah Myth. Theologian, university don and historian of the Copenhagen school who concludes Jesus and David are both amalgams of Near Eastern mythological themes originating in the Bronze Age.

Yawn. Tacitus cribbed from Josephus. Josephus had to defend himself during his own lifetime. Discredited, discredited, discredited.

Oops, forgot to add the scriptural references to the crucifixion of the historical Jesus:

See- Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.- (read them all at wiki.faithfutures. Crucifixion org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus )

For those interested in works of Josephus, read said works and commentaries by many experts at: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html

For those interested in scriptural references to the crucifixion of the historical Jesus, see:

Once again: From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.

"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.

“While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.

I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .

Other NT exegetes to include members of the Jesus Seminar have published similar books with appropriate supporting references.

Part of Crossan's The Historical Jesus has been published online at books.google.com/books.

There is also a search engine for this book on the right hand side of the opening page. e.g. Search Josephus

See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.

From ask.com,

"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style.

Perhaps of interest: According to Islam, Jesus (Isa) was Muslim.

Walter,

It is your "disdain" for Islam that I question. I'm sure the Muslim community will be glad that you don't mind them being here. :0

You did not make your "disdain" clear to the Muslim with whom you were blogging. When CCNL interrupted and you "giggled" at his deplorable comments, she stopped.

You seem to brag of your contempt. That disturbs me. Polemics is one thing. If I'm reading you correctly, you are admitting to something els.

Farnaz

Calsailor:

Sorry, I didn't realize you were writing to Free Speech. Forty-eight per cent of Germany was Lutheran during the Holocaust, evenly divided with the Catholics.

Although there were a significant number of high-ranking Catholics among the Nazis, the majority were Lutheran.

Farnaz1Mansouri1,
i know of the "protocols..." no doubt crazy conspiracy theories abound. but, you shouldn't get "booted" for posting about it. move on, be better than him.

as you mentioned, i've made my disdain for islam apparent, but i've got no problem with muslims living here - as long as they're practicing enlightened liberal morality and not really literally following scripture...

"we know there was a man named jesus living in first-century palestine. we even know he was a religious teacher. later in the “brother of jesus” quote, josephus mentions “jesus, son of damneus, high priest.”"

No, "we" do not.As posted previously, Josephus has been discredited in academia. Was discredited in his own lifetime and had to defend much of what he wrote.

There is no more credible evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Moses did. Interesting that Walter is willing to dispense with Moses, but not Jesus.

This is why I strongly suggest hands off on other people's religions: Jews, Muslims, et. Walter may claim to be an "atheist" must have his historical Jesus.

Another curious thing, along with the Josephus myths, is that this was one of the most historiographically minded periods in the lives of a very historigraphic people. And yet there are no accounts of him, of many others, but not him.

Frankly, I subscribe to the Jewish view that we should not question other people's religion.

The ball, however, is not in my court.

If you are referring to me, I didn't quote anyone. Martin Luther was NO peasant. What he wrote in his lifetime about Jews was used as propaganda by the Christians in the Holocaust and continues to be used by racists.

What you read was something I pasted. All this is beside the point. What I have to say regarding Jesus I say in my post. Either CCNL lays off the texts of other people's religions, or we have only just begun.

I am heartily sick of this Judeophobic, Islamophobic, gynophobic, xenophobic, homophobe.
Heartily.

CalSailor,
we know there was a man named jesus living in first-century palestine. we even know he was a religious teacher. later in the “brother of jesus” quote, josephus mentions “jesus, son of damneus, high priest.” in fact, historians have found many other jesuses living in first-century palestine. they just can’t find jesus the christ, son of joseph and son of god – either of them – until 60 years after he “died.” the lack of CONTEMPORARY evidence for that jesus does not mean he did not exist do miracles or resurrect himself. it just means christians must trust their faith and cannot say things like, “there is an impressive amount of independent corroboration” for jesus christ.

i really don't think the issue here is the historical extistence of jesus. it's his MIRACLES that make him special, and there's absolutely nothing like extrabiblical evidence for those. mind you, it could all be true, but must be taken on faith.

Farnaz1Mansouri1,
god i hate the fact that i'm responding to something in one of your "spats"...but, you keep saying something here i find disturbing.

the idea that someone who posts [insert religious idea] on this website should be deported. yuk.
_________________
Walter,

First, I have no intention of getting into one of your spats. Second, you know not of what you speak. I would suggest you google the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Second, if you want the Muslim blogger with whom you were communicating to post back to you, then I wouldn't "giggle" at CCNL's vilification of the Quoran, something that you have done before.
Yuck!

Google the Protocols, append "in the Muslim world" and get back to me. I add this: Hate speech does not qualify as free speech. When one posts from this very dangerous document, one self-identifies, particularly on a newspaper blog.

Frankly, I'm shocked that you are unaware of the Protocols and the harm it has caused, etc. Google, and get back to me.

Btw. Giggles and sharing of ccnl's Islamophobia is deplorable. Double yuck.

Free Speech:

You quoted Martin Luther for his remarks against the Jews shortly before his death. It is true that he said these things. He was a German peasant, and he reflected many of the attitudes current of this time. His own life experiences brought about this quotation.

BUT I hope you are not implying that those views are accepted today by any who hold Luther in high regard. They were repudiated by the "Lutherans" (who were so named against their will) shortly after his death. They have been unanimously rejected by Lutherans for 500 years, and most Lutheran laity are even unaware of them. The Lutheran Church has never been anti-semitic; indeed, we have tried to be a witness to the rights of the Jewish people to exist and live in peace.

The Confessing Church in Germany was the true Evangelical Church during the Nazi abomination. The CHurches which were not able to stand against the Nazi heresy have repudiated their stand. There were many martyrs from the CC of that era.

Pr Chris

Pr. Christ,

The posting on Jesus was meant for CCNL, who continually, derides the
OT (sic), forgetting it is the Tanakh, belonging, properly to Judaism.

The issue has naught to do with Crossan and the Jesus seminar. Crossan's methodolgy, though he first brought it NT studies, was, at the point of his introduction long in use by literary historians.

What troubles many is the simple fact that Josephus is unreliable, had to defend himself in his own time. That Crossan regards him as he does, in my view, compromises his undertaking.

It is true that thousands of Jews were crucified during the Roman occupation. However, we know the names of a number of them, and of others who were tortured to death in other ways, notably, Akiva. So that argument does not work empirically. It doesn't work logically either, I'm afraid, since persistence of a belief in no way attests to its veracity.

The issue for me is CCNL's literalist reading of the Tanakh, misrepresentation of sources, etc.

As far as I'm concerned live and let live. This would mean he'd have to stop slandering Judaism and other religions. If he doesn't, I shall have no choice but to continue posting from the countless books and articles discounting the historical Jesus hypothesis.

The ball is in his court.

Farnaz

Concerning the New Testament text:

The earliest written fragment of text is p53, dating from about 50ad. It is from Paul, who is the earliest writer. 1 Thess dates from probably the late 50s. Given the nature of the teachings of Jesus, it is not hard to understand the lack of writings before then: The emphasis was on oral witness. The Bible and other writings of the first two centuries is very clear that it was the death of the "eyewitnesses" those who knew or had seen Jesus that triggered the effort to write down the text. Aside from Paul Q is the earliest text. It is comprised of sayings, because the saying were thought to be the most important to retain. Everyone knew the events. The Gospels (and Acts, the 2nd half of Luke's material) is the work of theologians, and does not intend to be either history or biography. They are reflections of the experience of the churches in the places from which they come. They retain historical details, but they are not there to prove what everyone knew. The reason why they are called "gospels" is that they are a unique literary from from that period, so there is no automatic body of literature that you can divine the intent of the various authors.

I am enjoying the certitude with which many of you post on Scripture. Let me just say that decisions on many of these issues take a dozen years or more of study just to enter many of the most series ranks. John Meier's "Marginal Jew", which has produced two volumes of the three projected, is an exhaustive and painstakingly worked text has taken Dr Meier some 20 yeas and more. He was already working on it when I had him for one class...in 1990.

As I said in my previous post, there is a lot of popularizing theology and "biblical studies" writing which is of 4th ratequality--and worse. So, don't take any one of these popular "scholars" too seriously. You can find support for ANY point of view you want to take. So, be careful.

Pr Chris

Farnaz1Mansouri1,
god i hate the fact that i'm responding to something in one of your "spats"...but, you keep saying something here i find disturbing.

the idea that someone who posts [insert religious idea] on this website should be deported. yuk.

Shark2, the Pakistani Christian Persecutor and Jew Hater, opines:

"If these people dont like to discuss matters in a decent way then let deb-chatterji the hindu hate monger and a self proclaimed atheist-jew woman occupy these blogs. Listen to your own symphony and praise eachother.""

You posted the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and said viciously racist things. Stupid, but vicious, nevertheless. You have no sense of decency.

And your English has improved not a whit from the old, old Deb Chatterjee days.
Yup. You are exactly who I thought you were. Too stupid not to admit it. A lot of people left these blogs, and so long as your misogynistic, Christian persecuting, Jew hating self stays on, more will leave, particularly, if I entertain any more of your RACIST gibberish.

Fin

Hey, Folks:

Where are you getting your theology from? The Jesus seminar? JD Crossan? Marcus Borg? I'm sorry, but your references, and topics are from pop theology, not serious biblical scholars.

Try Raymond Brown, John Meier, Walter Burghardt, and a few others. Try the commentaries by Sacra Pagina, Hermeneia, Anchor Bible Dictionary, International Critical Commentary (ICC) series. Most of these, however, require Greek and Hebrew, and a working of Aramaic would help with Joe Fitzmyer's stuff.

As to the existence of the man/teacher Jesus. Some of you have said that "he couldn't have existed",because there are no contemporary records of him. Aside from Josephus, who probably refers to Jesus as the "Chrestos" of Rome who caused the Jews to be driven out, it is not hard to believe that there were few if any contemporaneous references to Jesus. How many of the records of Pilate survived, for example? Jesus lived and taught for a short period of time--a few months to approximately 3 years, according to the texts, in a remote area of the far reaches of the Roman Empire. Jerusalem was a small outpost of the Empire, little known except as the place where the native population had a reputation for being difficult to deal with and for having strange beliefs out of step with main Roman beliefs. How many of you knew anyone from, say, Anchorage, Alaska--before Sarah Palin last year, that is. And we have modern communications and databases, etc. 2000 years ago, records were neither extensive compared to today, nor have we retained many of those that were. The Romans crucified literally thousands of people in Jerusalem in the yeras around Jesus' life. How many are named at all?

How many conteporaries from Alexandria of the period have you heard of? Athens? They were both more important capitals in the Roman world than Jerusalem.

The "Quest for the Historical Jesus" has been going on since Remarus more than a century and a half ago. It goes on and on. The Jesus Seminar is just the latest, and its claim to fame is because of its method of "voting" on whether anything goes back to "the person of Jesus"... needless to say, the answer of most of them is "nothing"--more a result of the method of voting rather than any real consensus.

The bottom line, I believe is the fact that the Church exists...no other institution today takes its beginning from a person of so long ago, and it is hard to believe that it would have made it out of the age of marytrdom without being based on a real person. To posit anything else, is to postulate that 100 generations of people were delusional, sometimes even today, to the point of death. That doesn't pass the "reasonable" test.

Pr Chris

hsnkhwj,
are you still there?

i posed some unanswered questions. (also to SHARK2 and other MUSLIMS) i suppose chiefly they could be sumarised:

1)do you think islam requires "islamic government"?

2)in theory, do you think "freedom of religion" is compatible/congruent/possible with "islamic government" ? (same goes for "christian govt" and "jewish govt." and "hindu govt." etc...)

3)are most muslims literalists? how 'bout most muslims you know? how 'bout you?

You are the biggest racist who see yourself as a "moderator" on these blogs.
I will not reply you on personal attacks.

The dilema is that those people who came out as refugees try to become more sincere to certain causes.

Many decent persons like mary cunninham and astoria left these blogs.
If these people dont like to discuss matters in a decent way then let deb-chatterji the hindu hate monger and a self proclaimed atheist-jew woman occupy these blogs. Listen to your own symphony and praise eachother.

Dear Mr. Younis,

Here is one Shark2, a self-described "Muslim" who posted the Protocols of the Elders of Zion on your very thread.

Also, read his comments to see his views on Jews. Then explain to me how the West misunderstands.

I am aware that Shark2 is a semiliterate from Pakistan, could smell it. I know he's not "representative" of all Muslims, but still....

Now, if you scroll down, you will find the remarks said illiterate refers to. I informed him that these web sites are monitored, that he has put himself at risk. This I know, for a fact.

Whether anything will come of it, I know not. But a Jew hating, Pakistani, Green Card holder is not viewed as desirable in the continental US, just at the moment, if, in fact, he has such a card, and is in the US. Posting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion on a newspaper web site it a red flag, kindly explain to this pre-mammalian.

Back in the day, this psychopath was taken on by a highly literate fellow, whose politics I don't entirely subscribe to: Deb Chatterjee.

I'm not going to duel with this dolt, who, by the way asked me who HAFIZ was. He'll need someone else with whom to practice his English. And, like Chatterjee, I'm literate, while this Talib fool is not.

I would suggest you read this thread. Recognize from where some of the anger against your faith derives. When you have so many unfortunate representatives, bad impressions are inevitable.

Recall, too, that just a couple of days ago, four Muslims plotted to blow up synagogues and US military facilities New York. Said lunatics had a lot to say about Jews and Christians. This does not make for good interfaith relations.

And then you have this racist Shark2 on the thread for an essay that concerns "misunderstanding." Do you see what I mean?

Sincerely,
Farnaz

And also the readers should read your intimidation moves. The habit that is so obvious in many posts on these blogs.

"Shark2" who posted the protocols of the elders of zion on this thread, has taken the time to prove my point. Read his post, if not overly bored and nauseated.
_________________________________

you wrote:
No actual person could be as foolish as Shark2.

Your self-styled freedom allows you to continuously criticize everyone under the sun.A self proclaimed aethist + a jew.
What a hypocracy, it is like to claim I am a believer and non-believer at the same time.

Farnaz1Mansouri1

you wrote:
No actual person could be as foolish as Shark2.

Your self-styled freedom allows you to continuously criticize everyone under the sun.A self proclaimed aethist + a jew.
What a hypocracy, it is like to claim I am a believer and non-believer at the same time.

MORE ON CASTE AND PAKISTAN

You may recall the infamous case of Mukhtar Mai, gang-raped in retribution for a crime her twelve-year old brother was falsely accused of.

This sort of thing is far too common among low caste women, not all of whom are Christian. Fortunately, for her, despite being of low caste, and hence kept illiterate, she is a fighter, and with the support of her family, brought her case to world-wide attention.

Available at Amazon:

Name of Honor: A Memoir (Hardcover)
by Mukhtar Mai

CCNL writes:

"Skipping the Farnaz vs. her "friend"/straw man Shark2"

Sorry, for CCNL: the games up. No actual person could be as foolish as Shark2. You're using a false moniker to try to slander Islam. It's obvious.

If I were CCNL, a professed Christian," I'd be more concerned about the "sweepers."

lslam sucks. End of story. Just as Fascism and Nazism suck.

LOVE Free Speech! Bravo American Freedom of Speech!

Repeat: Islam sucks. Just as Fascism and Nazism suck. Get it?

CCNL

Who is this hirisi? Is she a educated woman?
I presume she liked US green card.

Skipping the Farnaz vs. her "friend"/straw man Shark2 games:

From Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, "Infidel":

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.

four excerpts:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

SCHEDULED CASTE IN PAKISTAN

For Christian Untouchables, see espcially, page 2.

http://www.researchcollective.org/Documents/Class_Caste_or_Race.pdf

CHRISTIANITY AND UNTOUCHABILITY IN PAKISTAN

Although Quoran expressly forbids caste, it exists full-blown in Pakistan, in the case of the Untouchable "Sweepers": Christians.

Not all Christians are condemned at birth to be "sweepers," but many, many are.
If you click on the link below, you will see one of several films made by this young Pakistani activist in an effort to bring attention to the hristian "sweepers."
He is not alone in trying to end the atrocity.

What they are foreced to do, known as "scavenging," not what you might think, is against UN national law. They live in the most impoverished, debased conditions imaginable. In addition, they are forced to convert, raped, tortured, and murdered. There are almost never any consequences.

"Pakistani Sweepers--The Untouchables of Pakistani Society"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2SN9poldRA

Shark2,

I have never said anything negative about Islam; however, you have shamed yourself and every other Muslim.

There are, though not always evident, prohibitions on posting hate speech, which you have done, and, quite knowingly, as you demonstrate.

I have nothing more to say to you.

Your shameful attempts to intimidate me must be condemned.

You do not want me to express my opinion while you abuse,insult and incite hatered against me and my religion.

Shark2,

Lest you still don't comprehend, you risk arrest, wherever you are. You have put yourself at risk.

Shark2,

I'm not annoyed at all. I'm delighted for I can be sure that within the next few days, your posts will not appear here.

hypocrites

Where are your claims now of free-speech?
I just show you the mirror and you become annoyed with me.

shark2,

With your usual inability to comprehend, you do not grasp the significance of my posting.

By pasting the Protocols on this site, you have drawn attention to yourself. I know. On another blog, I frequent, someone was tracked down for similar facist postings, and that person, btw., does NOT live in the US.

He (and it was a he) was susequently detained. In Islamabad. This government has long arms. If you are on US soil, you won't be for long.

And I daresay, the only ones who will miss you are your fellow Taliban, certainly, no one in the Muslim community.

If you are here in the US, say goodbye.

Farnaz1Mansouri1

US can be a paradise for a poor iranian refugee like you. I am happy where i am living.

Farnaz1Mansouri1

You are using many names on these blogs.
You are giving me a threat and you are calling me a talib. You are big black mailer and self-proclaimed scholar of religion.
Shame on you for threating me tht I will be taken care of if i am living in USA.

You spew a lot lot of poison against Islam in various guises and then you dont have the courage to listen to the otherside.
Dont you think you are a spin-master on these blogs. the readers know you and at one time you left these blogs when you were caught using different names.

How this place can be a decent place of discussion in presence of such dark-thinking persons.

Shark2,

Further, unlike you, hsnkhwj does not appear to be a racist, does appear knowledgable about Islam.

I would imagine s/he will disassociate himself/herself from you at the earliest possible opportunit

Muslims honor Moshe (Mussah) and the commandment not to kill, lie, etc. You are no Muslim.

As an Iranian Jew married to one, I should know. You are a simple(ton) talib hater of Jews and Christians and Hindus and Bahai.

It had to come out one day, and now it has. Hopefully, if you are on American soil, you won't be for long.

Shark2,

By posting from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, you demonstrate that you are precisely what others have claimed you are.

A Talib. Web sites are monitored. In light of the recent threat to blow up four synagogues in Riverdale and target US miliary equipment, you leave yourself wide open with this posting.

Web sites, particularly those that may invite antiChristian, antisemitic bloggers such as you, who may or may not be Taliban, are closely monitored.

Further, you have no idea who else is posting here, the connections they have.

No one ever said every Talib was smart.

FreeSpeech4,

Regarding your most recent post, I am a woman, an American woman, born in Iran, Jewish. (Don't own slaves, female or otherwise.)

Farnaz

FreeSpeech4:

"you're a Follower of Barbaric Islam."

ROFLMAO and so are a lot of other bloggers!
I guess you must be very new to this thread.

I'm a Jew, FP4, very much so, an Iranian Jew, unobservant, but well-versed in Judaism. Very well. Have some knowledge of other religions as well....

I think you might want to scroll down and read my most recent post to Shark2.

Farnaz :)

PS. I, too, polemicize, but only as a strategy of last resort.

Kindly explain why you consider me "a barbarian."

Farnaz

Because you're a Follower of Barbaric Islam. Hey - how's that "honor killing" thing going, good? How many females have you people murdered this month for "misbehaving?" Hundreds? And how's that FGM thing going, good? How many female clitorises have you people butchered this month? Thousands? And, how's that "shar'ia law" thing going in which a rape victim has to supply four male witnesses? Going good? And, how's that Child Bride thing doing - married off a s*itload of 9-year-olds to old men this month? Oh, that's great! How 'bout polygamy? Got a bunch of slaves (women) married to men they have to share with 3 other slaves (women)? Fabulous. Is that enough? Yeah, you're a Barbarian. Go back to the 7th century where you belong.

Muslims - get out of our country. Get out of the West. Go back to your own Islamic Crapistans. What's the matter? They're not good enough for you?

Hello, FreeSpeech4,

Can you answer the question I posted to you?

Thanks in advance!

Farnaz

Hey People - you know how Mohammedans say "Jesus was a Muslim?" (lol)

Well, Mohamet WAS A JEW! HOW YOU LIKE THEM APPLES, YOU BARBARIANS! OH, AND MO WAS A CHRISTIAN, TOO!

lol! Just think - Mo lopped off the heads of his own people, Jews and Christians. Poor, pitiful, Mohamet! Gotta pity poor Mo!

FreeSpeech4:

RE: Your post

Kindly explain why you consider me "a barbarian."

Farnaz

Farnaz1Mansouri1
you wrote:
When next you post, let us know how it's going with the Christian "sweepers" these days.
What I can tell! you don't miss a chance to humiliate the Christians.
How it come to your mind to write that Jesus never existed and then at the same time you took pity on Christian sweepers. In reality they are doing better than the Palestinians.
__________________
My Dear Shark2,

I have never taken it upon myself to humiliate anyone. That my dear aquatic is your thing. No, the "Sweepers" whom you starve are not doing better than the Palestinians. I know. I've seen both.

They are not doing better than the Palestinians whom readers may not know are treated precisely like garbage in Saudi Arabia, and trash in Egypt, etc.

In Jordan, they are treated like second-class citizens, even though in Jordan, they are the majority.

ONLY in Israel can they vote in free elections, have legitimate representation by the candidates of their choice.
My Dear Shark, they are not doing better than the Jews driven out, killed, etc., of their native Middle Eastern countries.

What Pakistan has done with the sweepers is a scandal. And what it has done to other Christians will be known more broadly. The Evangelic Christians post about it constantly.

As for the Hindus, yes back in the day there was a period when you persecuted Hindus and Jews simultaneously. With Mumbai, you caught up.

And then there were the Quarayza Jews. Most recently, a plot to blow up four synagogues and assault the US military.

Guess what? We still exist. Jews and HInuds and Christians and Bahai. Guess you cannot kill us all.
______

Sheesh. Why am I bothering? Who am I talking to? This is a self-proclaimed Muslim who asked me who Hafiz was!!

Scroll down. Study the Ten Commandments that Hashem gave to Moshe at Mount Sinai. As a Muslim, you need only follow the Noachide code. Use google. But you should be familiar with the commandments that the Lord gave Moshe.

Hmmm, Spark2, hsnkhwj and Farnaz are related somehow?

Posted by: CCNL | May 24, 2009 3:39 PM

Yep - they're all Mohammedan Barbarians.

Oh, give us a break! Muslims aren't "misunderstood!" And, Islam deserves to be criticized - there is MUCH in Islam that *deserves* to be criticized. Shark2 - it's your mind that is filled with "filth and garbage," i.e. Islam.

Due to decades of unregulated Mohammedan immigration coupled with their over-breeding, the demographics of Western Europe will show a Muslim majority in many Western European Countries in about 10 years. Holland will have more Muslims than indigenous Dutch in about 6 years. 6 years. You like that, people? Think about it. May as well start calling Western Europe "Eurabia" now. It's the "Demographic Jihad," people.

Oh, and btw - Jesus was NOT a Muslim - LOL! There were no Muslims until about 620 AD, after Mohamet the Warlord false "prophet" invented Islam.

Hmmm, Spark2, hsnkhwj and Farnaz are related somehow?

Why are there so many islamic Barbarians?

Polygamy. One man impregnating up to 4 wives at the same time. For 1350 years (the age of Islam). Yep, polygamy - sure does wonders to boost a population.

Child brides. The West also doesn't "marry" female children of age 9 to middle-aged men, and force them to start breeding as soon as they can and until they can't. That wholesale child abuse also does wonders to boost a population, and you people have been doing this since Mohamet, age 53, "married" Aisha at age 6 and consummated this "marriage" (call it by it's real name - child rape) when she was 9. Child brides - does wonders to boost a population.

Females treated as baby-making slaves. Which are most Mohammedan females.

The 3 disgusting reasons why there are so many Mohammedan Barbarians. And we have to deal with them. I'm so sick of "islam" "muslims" "qur'an" and "mohamed" I don't know what to do - get out of my face, get out of our faces with all your absurdities and ridiculousness - go back to your own countries. They're not good enough for you?

To hsnkhwj -

Bravo Islamophobia!

Islam *deserves* to have venom spewed at it. Oh yes, our "agenda?" We don't have to like Islam, and WE DON'T. Newsflash: We can speak out against Islam just as we would speak out against Fascism and Nazism. Islam is a plague on humanity.

Islam, the "religion" of Hate, *deserves* mockery, ridicule, condemnation and repudiation.

Fortunately, the West has FREEDOM OF SPEECH - so, mock, ridicule, condemn, and repudiate abhorrent Islam, people! Free Speech protects "offense" - so offend away! "Offense" - the thing Mohammedans can't stand! LOL! Bravo Danish Cartoonists! Bravo Mohammed cartoons! Bravo Mohammed Bear! Etc.

Why don't you just stay in your own countries? They're not good enough for you?

Abhab -

I agree with what you say, but back in the day the West wasn't hobbled by the twin paralytics of "political correctness" and "multiculturalism."

We should be throwing the Mohammedans out NOW - but due to the above idiocies, PC and MC, we're paralyzed.

Shark2:

Thia is to address you and you only. I came to the conclusion that these Islamophobes are not worth a dime to me. They have an agenda and the agenda is to spew more venom against Islam.

Your suspicion that some of these individuals use multiples user names to give the impression that they are so many of them is legitimate. Even if they are separate individuals their agenda is the same.

It is not a dialogue at all.

For me ignoring them is the best thing to do.

Salam!

The pigmies like abhad posts here under several names and still talks about elimination of muslims.

and

FreeSpeech4
you wrote:
It is very painful to see Western Europe submitting itself to the Barbarian Mohammedans and their barbaric creed. Very painful. The horror of the 21st century.
Anti-dote to "poison" is in poison itself. It is therefore my humble advise that you become a Muslim and began to produce as many children as possible.
But why can't you produce children parallel to the Muslims? Is it a difficult task?

Abhab

At last the cat came out of the bag.
Now you see who is the terrorists?
Read your mail once again and find out if you have any shame.

CCNL,
omg! that is so funny! islamic farting...i mean, you can't make this stuff up.

Do you think Shark2 and Farnaz are
related??

With respect to Islamic bathroom practices:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1503931/Prayer-Recitation-of-Quran-and-Ablution-or-Bath?query2=islam%20fart

"Farting is problematic in Islam. During prayer, a worshipper must not fart. Sahih Bukhari (1.4.137) writes that Allah will not accept a Muslim’s prayer if he/she passes wind during the ritual.

The exception occurs if the worshipper farts silently, or the fart does not smell. In such a case, he/she may continue with the prayer (ibid, 1.4.139).Sunaan Nasai (1.162) writes that if you fart during a prayer you must redo ablution. Sahih Bukhari (9.86.86) says that for a “farter” Allah will not accept his/her prayer until he/she performs another ablution."

FreeSpeech4,

Romans 3:7: “For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory, why yet am I also judged as a sinner?”

prior to the renaissance, enlightenment etc...the "western world" was run by theocracies. usually maonarchs who claimed authority from god. not much different from imams etc..today. i understand how islam is a "total system", swallowed whole and inextricably linked with creating a god-pleasing SOCIETY. frankly, i don't really care what a muslim's home life it like. i feel sorry for muslim women, but as long as militant muslims bomb us, i care about islam. and as much as i'd like to bomb all the "bad ones" to hell, there are too many of them and they're mixed in with the regular people - the regular people who are our only hope.
_________________________________

hsnkhwj,
i broached the "literalism problem" earlier, and you haven't had a chance to respond to that yet, but what percentage of muslims are literalists (earth is 6000 yrs old)? i get the feeling it's higher than for christians/jews.

Shark is threatening us thus:
“But the demography shows that you are not have sufficient children; now don't tell this too is the fault of the Muslims.
When you do not have children then what to talk about the future of such children?”
Let me give Shark a lesson from history. The Muslims ruled Spain for 800 years. They were multiplying like rabbits as most Muslims do today. When the Spaniards felt they were exploited and humiliated enough they chewed and spitted the intruders out. Do you see any Caliphate in Spain today?
Secondly, numbers do not count, it is the quality that does. Another lesson from the very recent history. Israel with only 6 million reclaimed what was once its homeland against the will of over a billion Muslims and Arabs. What good has all those numbers done to the Muslims and their cause(s)?

Walter in Falls Church

Islam is a total system. There is nothing separate from the belief system - there are even rules for going to the bathroom islamically!

This is why Islam is not compatible with Democracy and Freedom. There is no Freedom in Islam - the Adherents' are all Slaves to allah, they Submit to allah and the Koran. This is not how Christians view their faith and God, Jesus. We are not "slaves" to Jesus, and He would not want us to be.

There is no Freedom of Speech in Islam. Islam is incompatible with the Western intellectual tradition of Critical Inquiry and Independent Thought. Muslims who dare to question or criticize Islam risk the death penalty. Among many examples, that's one example of how backward and primitive Islam is.

The reasons we have a literal explosion of Mohammedans in the world are the ones I have enumerated in a previous comment: Polygamy, Child Brides, Females as Breeding Slaves. Since the civilized West does not engage in barbaric and cruel polygamy, legalized child rape (Child Brides) and treat women as worth nothing but their breeding capabilities, we cannot compete demographically with the savage, primitive, and backward Islamic world. This is a huge problem. 20 years down the road it's going to be colossal.

"Al-Taqiyya" - deliberate lying to the "Infidel" about Islam. Started by their false prophet Warlord, Mo.

Where is this Christian parallel you mention? I've never heard of it.

FreeSpeech4,
yes, i know about "abrogation" (and the tricky way the koran IS NOT presented in chronological order - so it's difficult for non-scholars to discern what abrogates what). book 9 is horrible, and was the second-to-last one written, so there's a lot of abrogation potential there.

i also know about "taqiya" - lying for islam (christianity has a similar "doctrine" based on a verse from paul).

believe me, my eyes are wide open re: the horrors of "islamic culture" - just ask hsnkhwj, azisk and the other muslims here who've read and responded to my comments. i haven't really been very nice... but, islam is the worst religion i've ever heard of.

i wish we had "smart bombs" that we could drop all over the world that would kill ONLY militant muslims - but the technology's just not there yet. and the crazy militant ones HIDE among the "regular people" who just happened to be born muslim. the "regular people" the ones i've called "moderate muslims" (hsnkhwj et al) are our best hope for making the osama bin ladens and talibans go away.

now, i keep putting "moderate" in quotes, because it seems to me like they are the extremists! i've seen polls where "only" 20% of american muslims support suicide bombing. we're supposed to be pleased that "only" 20% support religious homocide bombings? of course that percentage goes up over 50% in many "muslim countries" - so the "moderates" are really the extremists...

the "islamic world" needs an enlightenment, not along martin luther's "reformation" but a societal acceptence of the "freedom of [religion, life, liberty, equality]" philosophy embodied in jefferson, madison et al.. muslims still think god and government can go together.

The Qur'an clearly says "Let there be no compulsion in religion". (Surah al Baqarah, Chapter 2 verse 256).

That's an abrogated verse. It was superseded by the verses of the sword in chapter 9 and following. People - when a Mohammedan points that verse out to you as an example that Islam is tolerant - remember, that is an ABROGATED VERSE. Read about the Islamic Doctrine of Abrogation. Google it and do it now. Arm yourselves with knowledge about Islam. Stop believing the "War is deceit" Mohammedans!

Walter in Falls Church

There won't be any Martin Luther of Islam. So, you can "imagine" like John Lennon all you want, but the reality is it will never happen.

Islam is monolithic. The ideology of Islam found in the Koran is INFLEXIBLE (monolithic), as Mohammedans believe the Koran to be the exact words of "allah" - due to this the Koran can never be modified or changed or revised because they're not going to revise or change or modify "God" - what they think is "God," but is actually a pre-Islamic pagan moon idol which archaeologists find in the Arabian deserts all the time (sandstone idols with a crescent moon carved on it's chest). "Al-ilah" the Moon god from Arabian mythology. It's like considering Zeus or Jupiter to be "God."

Islam can never be reformed. So, what are we going to do about this kill-and-conquest ideology now that we have let it run amuck? And after 9/11! It's insane, this political correctness about an evil ideology, utterly insane. The West is becoming Islamized, and therefore, ruined.

FreeSpeech4,
while i share your disdain for islam, the fact is it's here and there are about 1,000,000,000 of them out there. of course the religious texts they work from are artifacts of an ancient and brutal time, codifying such horrible things as sexism and religionism.

i think it is a (hilarious/tragic) telling testament to the horrible morals of the times that muhammad had to make a rule about NOT KILLING YOUR OWN CHILDREN just to avoid poverty...

"Slay not your children, fearing a fall to poverty, we shall provide for them and for you. Lo! The slaying of them is great sin." Koran 17:31

nonetheless, we're stuck with them. our only hope is for "moderate muslims" to change islam from within. that's why i wrote below,

"imagine a world-wide islamic peace movement. a young cleric nails his 95 theses to the mosque door. 16-year old mujahadin throw down their arms, don tie-die shirts, flash the peace sign, and march on tehran, damascus and beirut for sit-ins. they drink tea, sing joan baez songs and discuss peace, love and understanding (what’s so funny?). their fundamentalist parents would be aghast. don’t laugh. this is the goal."

shark2

The civilized West hasn't had polygamy for 1350 years, as have you Barbarians.

Polygamy. One man impregnating up to 4 wives at the same time. For 1350 years (the age of Islam). Yep, polygamy - sure does wonders to boost a population.

Child brides. The West also doesn't "marry" female children of age 9 to middle-aged men, and force them to start breeding as soon as they can and until they can't. That wholesale child abuse also does wonders to boost a population, and you people have been doing this since Mohamet, age 53, "married" Aisha at age 6 and consummated this "marriage" (call it by it's real name - child rape) when she was 9. Child brides - does wonders to boost a population.

Females as baby-making slaves. Which are most Mohammedan females.

From your comments I see that you are exactly the type of Islamic Barbarian that the West should fear and loathe. Anyone who worships a pagan moon deity (idol) which is "allah," is a dangerous individual. To actually believe the obvious lies of Con Man Warlord Mo - you don't have too much going on upstairs.

freespeech4

you say:
Our children's future depends on fighting back against barbaric Islam, people.

But the demography shows that you are not have sufficient children's, now don't tell this too is the fault of the Muslims.
When you do not have children then what to talk about the future of such children?

FreeSpeech4

you wrote:
It is very painful to see Western Europe submitting itself to the Barbarian Mohammedans and their barbaric creed. Very painful. The horror of the 21st century.

Anti-dote to "poison" is in poison itself. It is therefore my humble advise that you become a Muslim and began to produce as many children as possible.
But why can't you produce children parallel to the Muslims? Is it a difficult task?

"First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people." - Islamic proverb

Please, stop drinking the green kool-aid that Islam is "peaceful."

Islam doesn't assimilate, Islam seeks to dominate. How do you think the formerly Judeo-Christian Middle East became Islamic? WAKE UP! Stop being afraid of the Mohammedans' name-calling and fight back against this Fascist ideology that has infiltrated our Western world - and we have let it! Just like Chamberlain appeasing Hitler, and Hitler just getting more and more aggressive. Our children's future depends on fighting back against barbaric Islam, people. We have the First Amendment - Freedom of Speech - use it!

"What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it doesn't exist." --Sir Salman Rushdie

Islam deserves to be hated, just as Fascism and Nazism deserve to be hated.

"One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory." -- Mohammed "Houari" Boumédienne, Algerian President 1965-78, in a 1974 speech to the UN.

Something you people don't understand about this prediction from a Mohammedan in 1974?

Due to polygamy, child brides, and treating females as baby-making slaves, the Mohammedans are over-breeding prodigiously. As Mohamet said, a woman's job is to "manufacture men." What are you going to do when they out-number us? Better start thinking ahead on that, because Mohammedans don't like "Infidels." You see the likes of Shark2 here? He wants to be your Master - you like that?

Mohammedan shark2 - I didn't "coin" the term Eurabia - Bat Y'eor did. Why don't you read her book, "Eurabia" (2005)?

As far as "converting" to Islam goes, only Loser Nutcases convert to Islam, and I'm neither, so, no I won't be joining your "religion" of Hate, Violence, Intolerance, Misogyny and Mass-Murder, thank you very much, nor following your pedophile fraud mass-murdering "prophet."

It is very painful to see Western Europe submitting itself to the Barbarian Mohammedans and their barbaric creed. Very painful. The horror of the 21st century.

REV. MARTIN LUTHER, sermon at Eisleben, a few days before his death, February, 1546

"Besides, you also have many Jews living in the country, who do much harm... You should know the Jews blaspheme and violate the name of our Savior day for day... for that reason you, Milords and men of authority, should not tolerate but expel them. They are our public enemies and incessantly blaspheme our Lord Jesus Christ, they call our Blessed Virgin Mary a harlot and her Holy Son a bastard and to us they give the epithet of changelings and abortions.
Therefore deal with them harshly as they do nothing but excruciatingly blaspheme our Lord Jesus Christ, trying to rob us of our lives, our health, our honor and belongings."

Farnaz1

Do you think J's and Hindus are natural allies.
It happened in Medina too when they conspire with the non-believers to harm the Muslims and as a result they have to leave Khyber.

FreeSpeech4

I have an idea which can eliminate your pain, you too convert to Islam and began producing children so that Eurobia as you coined, can occur earlier.

"I have been made victorious with terror." - Mohamet

As Mohamet mass-murdered the Jews and Christians of Arabia, Mohamet was an Islamic Terrorist. Mohamet beheaded thousands of Jews in one day when they wouldn't convert to Islam. And shouting "allahu akbar" after each head hit the dirt. Doesn't that sound familiar.

"If a man leave his Islamic faith, kill him." - Mohamet

Apostasy is still a death-penalty crime in Islamic countries. Imagine adhering to an ideology that says to kill you if you leave it! Sounds like a cult, to me.

"War is deceit." - Mohamet.

People, when the Muslims say Islam is "peaceful," - that's deceit. Islam has nothing whatsoever to do with peace, and they know it. Islam is all about "Jihad" - Islamic Holy War against the "Infidel" - that's us, Jews, Christians, and anyone not Islamic. The core tenet of the Koran is "Kill the Infidels" until the world worships "allah" alone. Read the Koran, see for yourself. Stop believing the propaganda because you're afraid of being called a racist! Islam isn't a race - it's a belief system, an ideology, and like any belief system/ideology it can be scrutinized, criticized, mocked, repudiated and condemned. Islam is filled with racism and bigotry and hatred of Jews and Christians, Jews in particular. Haven't you heard the old Middle East (Islamic) saying: "First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people?" Think about what that means. THAT is what Islam is all about - Hate. There is no "light" in Islam - it's all darkness and a plague on humanity. Why don't you ask the 3,000 who died on September 11, 2001?

Farnaz1Mansouri1

you wrote:

When next you post, let us know how it's going with the Christian "sweepers" these days.

What I can tell! you don't miss a chance to humiliate the Christians.
How it come to your mind to write that Jesus never existed and then at the same time you took pity on Christian sweepers. In reality they are doing better than the Palestinians.

CCNL,
it's hilarious that you use passages from the new testament as evidence for jesus's historicity. i mean, muslims have scripture saying muhammad rode a white winged horse one night - soscriptural evidence is kind of worthless as "proof" of his existence. i mean to look at it another way, babylonians have similar proof for the existence of baal etc...

so your're right to look to non-christian sources. but, the big problem with the ones you cite (josephus, tacitus, could have mentioned pliny the younger and a few others) is that THE AUTHORS WERE NOT EVEN BORN WHEN JESUS DIED. josephus, earliest non-christian reference wrote his "jesus quotes" (questionable as their authenticity is) 60 YEARS AFTER JESUS DIED.

that's not corroboration of anything other than the fact that "christians" existed in 93 A.D.. tacitus and pliny wrote in the second century. i'm not really questioning the historicity of jesus. i don't feel strongly either way, but it bugs me when people think there's all kinds of "extra-biblical" evidence for jesus.

anyway, this thread got thrown off track by this historicity of jesus thing, which is a fine topic of conversation, but i hope it doesn't distract the "moderate muslims" from our conversation.

"One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory." -- Mohammed "Houari" Boumédienne, Algerian President 1965-78, in a 1974 speech to the UN.

The above is happening right now, just as Boumedienne told us back in 1974. Western Europe is becoming Eurabia. It's called "Demographics," people. Better get over there right now and visit the charming countries of Western Europe before they are completely Islamized, and therefore, ruined.

Uh, excuse me, Timothy McVeigh was not a Christian. When he demolished the building in Oklahoma City he was an atheist. Got that? Hitler wasn't a Christian, either. In fact, he admired Islam, and considered Christianity "weak." Because Christianity is not a War/Conquest ideology like Islam. Islam has nothing whatsoever to do with peace. How do you think the formerly Judeo-Christian Middle East became Islamic? Through war and conquest.

Oh, give us a break! Muslims aren't "misunderstood!" And, Islam deserves to be criticized - there is MUCH in Islam that *deserves* to be criticized. Shark2 - it's your mind that is filled with "filth and garbage," i.e. Islam.

Due to decades of unregulated Mohammedan immigration coupled with their over-breeding, the demographics of Western Europe will show a Muslim majority in many Western European Countries in about 10 years. Holland will have more Muslims than indigenous Dutch in about 6 years. 6 years. You like that, people? Think about it. May as well start calling Western Europe "Eurabia" now. It's the "Demographic Jihad," people.

Oh, and btw - Jesus was NOT a Muslim - LOL! There were no Muslims until about 620 AD, after Mohamet the Warlord false "prophet" invented Islam.

Shark2,

When next you post, let us know how it's going with the Christian "sweepers" these days.

"Some people are famous throughout the history for conspiracies."

You mean like the 9/11 killers, and all the others?

The four who tried to blow up synagogues in New York and target military facilities?

Would those be the conspirators you mean?

Although gentiles are only required to follow the Noachide Code, you would do well to study the Ten Commandments, given to Moses (PUBH) at Mount Sinai.

The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 “You shall not murder.
7 “You shall not commit adultery.
8 “You shall not steal.
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”

Shark2,

"This is not something new, this relationship existed even 1400 years ago. congratulations! what best partners you have found."

I don't understand what you mean. Explain, please.

Farnaz1Mansouri1

Btw., guess which well-heeled folks of a different religion are reaching out warmly to us Js?

NB: Hindus

Farnaz1Mansouri1

This is not something new, this relationship existed even 1400 years ago. congratulations! what best partners you have found.

Abhab aka arif2

You have nothing to offer positive except to criticize Islam. Your use of words and insults shows how filthy is your mind.
I recommend all to keep away from filth and garbage.

You and your father ali sina can be found in websites only, poor people thinking that by spreading their filth they are doing a good.
And then you ask me what is light?

You spit towards the moon and it will fell on your own face.

Some people are famous throughout the history for conspiracies. They cannot control their habit.Thet are trying to spread disinformation about Prophet Jesus PBUH. Islam has later confirmed him as a prophet and that he was not a myth. This is strange that this issue is raised here to create confusion, which is the main aim of these people.

"Jesus allegedly had crowds of thousands follow him around"

From Deley's essay. This particular point is noted both again and again, with amusement, both by scholars who support and deny said JC's existenct. The overwhelming majority of Jews would have known nothing of his existence, if he existed. Doubtful.

The majority were interested in two things: survival and the Perushim (Pharisees) who were codifying the Tanakh, translating it, reforming Temple culture, moving toward rabbinic Judaism.

Of course, if he existed, there was no trial. Whether on Passover or during the Feast of the Tabernacles, no trials could be held. Period. This was not negotiable. Indeed, it is observance of these holy days is not negotiable, even in 2009. ONe exception has held for thousands of years: The immediate threat to a human life. I mean, immediate threat, as in the person will die if help is not gotten at once. J.D. Crossan is one among the who know quite well that no trial could have occurred.

Further, there were prophets declaring themselves Sons of This, That, and The Other, dropping from trees. The Sadduccees ignored them. The Pharisees saw them as afflicted by the evil of the times, and declared they should be unharrassed. They posed no threat to anyone, and, technically, it was no violation of anything to declare oneself a relative of the deity. It was simply what today we would understand as "madness."

It was clear to the Perushim, abundantly so, that the age of prophecy had ended long ago. It had been so stated.

See Talmud.

As an interesting aside on the Imaginary Jesus:

He is referred to as "Rabbi" in the NT, indicating not that he was an Essene (impossible for this as for other reasons), but that he was, in fact, a Pharisee, for only among the Pharisees (Perushim) was the term used. They were the emerging new rabbinate, the teachers, as opposed to, and IN opposition to the priests.

The scribes who couldn't think straight....
___________________

Parts 2 & 3 of Deley's essay to follow, along with much, much more....

Evidence that Jesus Never Existed
The three topics which suggest that Jesus never existed are:
History
Comparative Religion
Solar Mythology

History. It's inconceivable that during the alleged time of Jesus no one bothered to write down anything about this most extraordinary person, yet we have nothing. Even the earliest Bible reference to Jesus dates to at least A.D. 64, and the first Gospel, the Gospel of Mark, dates to at least A.D. 70 (and probably to A.D. 170).
Comparative Religion shows that the story of Jesus already existed in numerous religions prior to the alleged time of Jesus. Chrishna, Horus, Orpheus, Bacchus, Osiris, Dionysus, Buddha, Apollo, Hercules, Adonis, Ormuzd, Mithras, Indra, Œdipus, Quetzalcoatle, etc. The motif of a Crucified Savior was already extant prior to the alleged time of Jesus.

Solar Mythology shows the story of Jesus is just an allegory for the sun passing through the Zodiac and the passage of the seasons of the year. Jesus travels throughout his one year ministry, and the description of his travels exactly match that of the sun traveling through the Zodiac during the year. Here we have the origin of the Jesus story. This common origin explains why all the stories of crucified saviors are essentially the same.

Continues below

PART II

HISTORY.
If Jesus actually existed and did all the miraculous things he is said to have done then surely many people would have written about it during and immediately following Jesus' life. Writing was common at the time, yet an extensive search by many scholars over centuries has turned up nothing. The very few references to Jesus that allegedly date back to his lifetime are clearly forgeries, forged no doubt hundreds of years later by people who realized this embarrassing lack of evidence needed to be rectified (see Joseph Wheless Forgery in Christianity).

Even if we ignore the evidence that they are forgeries, the very small number of these questionably authentic writings that allegedly date back to his alleged lifetime are still far too few. There should be a huge wealth of writing about this person that was written during his lifetime.

Jesus allegedly had crowds of thousands follow him around. Once he fed 5000 people with only a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish (Mark 6:39-44). Later he repeated the miracle again feeding a crowd of 4000 people (Mark 8:1-9). Jesus cured sick people miraculously and raised people from the dead. He changed water into wine at a wedding reception. He exorcised demons. He commanded 2000 pigs to rush into a lake and drown themselves, inciting the people of the nearby town and countryside, who asked him to leave. (No mention is made of what happened to the poor pig herder whose livelihood must have been ruined. Mark 5:1-20).

Wherever Jesus went a crowd gathered and wondered in amazement who this person was. Jesus was a very controversial person. Finally he got himself into so much trouble that huge crowds of Jews demanded his execution. There was a controversial trial followed by his public execution. Three days later he is seen walking around alive again. And no one wrote any of this down when it allegedly happened?

PART III
Even the earliest full account of Jesus in the Bible, the Gospel of Mark, is admitted by the Catholic Church to date to at least A.D. 70, a full 40 years after Jesus' alleged death and resurrection. (Mark makes reference to an event that happened around A.D. 70, so it could not have been written any earlier. Modern scholars now date the Gospels as being written near A.D. 170, a full 140 years after the alleged event, since no one makes any reference to a Gospel of Mark, or any other Gospel, prior to this time.)

It's inconceivable that no one at the time bothered to write down anything about the most important person in the whole of human history. Writing was common back then. People wrote letters. Historians wrote commentaries on current events. The Romans wrote and kept legal documents about trials. It's considered one of the best documented periods of history. Yet no one wrote anything about this Jesus; no one painted a portrait of this Jesus; no one drew a sketch of this Jesus; no one cast a coin depicting this Jesus; no one made a statue of this Jesus; no one makes any reference whatsoever to this Jesus. The historical evidence is overwhelming—the Jesus of the Bible never existed.

NEGATIVE EVIDENCE PRINCIPLE
When is absence of evidence, evidence of absence? In general a mere lack of evidence is not sufficient to conclude a proposition is false. We must also demonstrate:
All of the evidence used to support the proposition is untenable.
Adequate tenable evidence should exist.
A thorough search for this tenable evidence has been made and none has been found.
At this point I leave it to the reader to decide for him or her self whether the above three points have been satisfied or not, as every individual must ultimately decide what one chooses to believe. Any counter-argument will be an attack against one of the above three points. We can not prove that Jesus never existed, just as we can not prove that Santa Claus never existed. Quite a lot of people believe Santa Claus exists (mostly young people).

Being suspicious of "The Jesus Story is a Biography" theory frees our thinking and allows us to look in other places for the origin of the story. Indeed we will discover that the Jesus Story is not unique. We will find that the motif of a crucified savor who dies and is resurrected was common in other religions prior to the alleged time of Jesus. We will also discover that the story of Jesus' one year ministry parallels that of the Sun's annual journey through the Zodiac and the Sun's apparent death in Autumn and subsequent resurrection in Spring.

We will pursue these studies in parts 2 & 3. First let's examine what other scholars throughout history have said about the existence of Jesus.

—David W. Deley (2003)

http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/appendixd.html

From Professors Crossan and Watts' book, Who is Jesus.

"That Jesus was crucified under Pontius Pilate, as the Creed states, is as certain as anything historical can ever be.

“ The Jewish historian, Josephus and the pagan historian Tacitus both agree that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea. And is very hard to imagine that Jesus' followers would have invented such a story unless it indeed happened.

“While the brute fact that of Jesus' death by crucifixion is historically certain, however, those detailed narratives in our present gospels are much more problematic. "

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety.

I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

See also Professor Crossan's reviews of the existence of Jesus in his other books especially, The Historical Jesus and also Excavating Jesus (with Professor Jonathan Reed doing the archeology discussion) .

Other NT exegetes to include members of the Jesus Seminar have published similar books with appropriate supporting references.

Part of Crossan's The Historical Jesus has been published online at books.google.com/books.

There is also a search engine for this book on the right hand side of the opening page. e.g. Search Josephus

See also Wikipedia's review on the historical Jesus to include the Tacitus' reference to the crucifixion of Jesus.

continued below:

About Tacitus (From ask.com)
"One of the greatest historians of ancient Rome, Cornelius Tacitus is a primary source for much of what is known about life the first and second centuries after the life of Jesus. His most famous works, Histories and Annals, exist in fragmentary form, though many of his earlier writings were lost to time. Tacitus is known for being generally reliable (if somewhat biased toward what he saw as Roman immorality) and for having a uniquely direct (if not blunt) writing style."

Then there are these scriptural references:

Crucifixion of Jesus:(1) 1 Cor 15:3b; (2a) Gos. Pet. 4:10-5:16,18-20; 6:22; (2b) Mark 15:22-38 = Matt 27:33-51a = Luke 23:32-46; (2c) John 19:17b-25a,28-36; (3) Barn. 7:3-5; (4a) 1 Clem. 16:3-4 (=Isaiah 53:1-12); (4b) 1 Clem. 16.15-16 (=Psalm 22:6-8); (5a) Ign. Mag. 11; (5b) Ign. Trall. 9:1b; (5c) Ign. Smyrn. 1.2.-
(read them all at http://wiki.faithfutures. Crucifixion org/index.php/005_Crucifixion_Of_Jesus

Interesting discussion--All! I've been stopping by at this thread periodically.

I have to say in reading some of these postings, I do see some irony. I cannot, will not, do not wish to make excuses for excesses in some segments of the Islamic community for gynophobia, homophobia, xenophobia, violence, racism with respect to Jews and others, etc. Quiet as the antisemistim is kept in the newspapers, it will out from time to time, when, for example, a young English girl is nearly killed in the streets after being asked if she was Jewish. It will out when four lunatics plot to blow up synagogues and target the US military.

However, lest we forget in a gust of self-righteousness: This nation, previously led by two Christians, whose extreme point of view is shared by tens of millions of others, led this country into a Holy Christian Oil War.

This nation, with its good Saudi friends, supported, armed and trained Osama Bin Laden and gave the world a forceful Taliban.

This nation supported the Kurd-killing Sadaam Hussein....and went after him for one obvious reason: OIL.

Oil, power, greed, religion, and government. A deadly mix for North America and Europe, as well as for the Middle East. Subtract the oil, and you can add parts of Asia.

Arif2,
agreed re: muhammad the pedophile, agreed re: koran is rubbish, agreed re: muslims should examine themselves.

you asked "why the muslim prefix?" - THAT's a great question! i'm trying to learn that too. why are there "islamic countries"?
http://www.oic-un.org/index.asp

chandragupta,
i think you are exactly right when you say,

"They are interpreting Islam exactly the way it was meant to be interpreted."

i do think the scripture was meant o be taken literally, and written in a brutal time of tribal warfare and so on.

also, you said,
"Real moderates would admit flaws and strive to correct them...Instead we get endless articles about how muslims are misunderstood and Islam misinterpreted,"

i am very disappointed in the moderate muslim reaction to 9-11 and "islamic violence" in general. after 9-11, there WERE muslims around the world expressing sympathy for the united states. it was a magic moment in that sense. and while we've (bush) done just about everything wrong since then, so have the moderate muslims. they SHOULD be outraged - at the crazy people like osama bin laden who made an otherwise loving person like me so mad at "islam". there has got to be an uprising, from within the "muslim community".

imagine a world-wide islamic peace movement. a young cleric nails his 95 theses to the mosque door. 16-year old mujahadin throw down their arms, don tie-die shirts, flash the peace sign, and march on tehran, damascus and beirut for sit-ins. they drink tea, sing joan baez songs and discuss peace, love and understanding (what’s so funny?). their fundamentalist parents would be aghast. don’t laugh. this is the goal.

ccnl,
though i say i've seen your "pastes" before, i connot say i disagree with them.

hsnkhwj,
my question about the age of the earth has to do with LITERALISM.

people who take scripture literally are crazy. given our scientific knowledge, they just cannot be literally true. there are crazy christians too - embarrassingly large numbers of them who think adam and eve walked with dinosurs...6000 yrs ago... there's a church up the street of people like this. seriously, they are the nicest buch of people i've ever met - but they're crazy because they take scripture literally. thank god theres no christian scripture that says, "slay the idolators" - or these extremely nice people would do "outer" jihad.

that's what scares me about islam is the widespread literalism combined with the um..."violence-enabling" texts...

hsnkhwj,
in reply to my question/comment about genesis and why didn't god reveal the truth to the ancients:

how old do you think the earth is?

abhab,
it is great to have you here to provide "context". for hsnkhwj's comments. i admit i have not read the koran cover-to-cover like i have the bible. what i've read sounds a lot like the bible, and i know that whatever else is in there cannot possible redeem the awful parts i know of - especially book 9. man, what a horrible thing to revere: book 9...

wow. thank you guys all for the replies. i will try to reply in kind. it will take time...

hsnkhwj, you said,
"I do not mean in any insulting way, but believe your line of reasoning is faulty when you use Muslims and Islam as monolithic.
Christians of Haiti are not the same as Christians of Northern Ireland etc.
Muslims the same way."

ok, let's be clear, when i say "islamic world" or "islamic culture" or "islamic country" (that term really irritates me) i mean to say "places where people believe the koran is the right magic book that explains everything."

so the reason these "monolithic" term mean any thing is because crazy christians in haiti are not BOMBING people. it seems to me like every crazy inhumane religiously-motivated atrocity these day come from a muslim. of course you'll say there are crazy pedophile priests or whatever, but that's really different from "suicide bombers".

i mean, when was the last time a suicide (i would actually say "religious homocide") bomber was NOT muslim?
__________________________
you talked about timothy mcveigh:

agreed - no doubt, there are plenty of crazy christians out there. too.
______________________
you mentioned saudi arabia:

saudi arabia is like a caricature of everything wrong with an "islamic country". it shows what happens if an "islamic government" has power. i can't wait until OIL is worthless and the saudi family are sultans of a desert.

hsnkhwj
"Muhammad was not granted prophethood when he married her--nor was he so powerful at the time of his marriage to Khadija."

Mohammed was a pedophile in the making and had a need to grab money. He married Khadija for her money and power, later he took that away from all women. Mohammed even took his sons wife away from him.

Sharkie
"Your objections about various Quranic verses shows your inability to see the light. "
What light?

Koran has no light, in fact koran is rubbish, koran are the words of a mad man of Arabia, they are words of a criminal pedophile who by sheer luck made history by terrorism. islam practiced first ethnic cleansing. To this day non-muslims are not allowed in mecca? why is that? do muslims still carry their prophet mohammeds fear of other religions? Are people of other faiths unclean? Is it because they don't wash their behinds and use toilet paper instead? Is it that they eat harrm food and they may have drops of urine on their pants?

Muslims it is high time you start examining yourselves and reject the stupid rituals and superstitions that islam is 90% built upon. Why does it matter what a man eats? or how they clean themselves, give Mecca back to the pagans, let them worship and rebuild their idols. Why do you fear idols and idol worshipers so much that you have the desire to kill one when you see one ...just like your beloved murdering prophet did 1400 years ago.

Make history right and build your own temples, give the Jews back their temple, relinquish control to the pagan worshipers of Mecca. What the hell is a Muslim American or a French American or a British American? Why can't you just be citizens of the places you inhabit? Why can't we simply have Americans? or British or Germans why the "Muslim" prefix? We are sick of your hillal food and your burkas.

HSKN chides me thus:
"You have yourself answered my questions. The problem is you don't see a contradiction in what you write on two separate occasions. On the one hand, you say she (Khadija) was very powerful. On the other hand, she saw power in Muhammad."

Moi:
Go back to my post. I said: “What she saw was MORE power and wealth by being hitched to a prophet -king.”

The fact that she was wealthy and powerful is no guarantee that she would be against becoming more powerful and wealthier. Do you get it now?

Btw., guess which well-heeled folks of a different religion are reaching out warmly to us Js?

NB: Hindus

Honestly, I can't understand ccnl's hostility to Islam. It is certainly arguable that Mohammed was illiterate and many Islamic Studies scholars have endorsed this view.

Now, ccnl likes worshipping illiterates, claiming the Jesus, not the "Son of God," was an "illiterate preacher man."

Major diff betw the two is that Mohammed existed, whereas the preacher man's actually time on earth is hotly contested. Quite possibly a phantom of ccnl's early ancestors.

So...Point? CCNL should LOVE Mohammed, an illiterate who actually existed.
_________________________
The foregoing is meant neither as a criticism of Islam or Mohammed. I merely offer it up for analysis.

I will say this. Planning to bomb synagogues, harrassing, assaulting, defaming Jews all over the world is not the way to win friends and influence people.

Particularly true now as more of what is said about Christians, the "idolators," what is done to them in parts of Asia and the Middle East comes out.

NOt to worry for now, though. Oil lust trumps everything.

Abhab

You have taken several months just arising objections, now let it be our turn. Would mind to tell the readers what you believe in.
Your objections about various Quranic verses shows your inability to see the light.

There is no misunderstanding. Infact, now more than ever before, there is perfect understanding thanks to the true followers of Islam. They are interpreting Islam exactly the way it was meant to be interpreted. Whatever else they might be, atleast one cannot accuse them of being dishonest. Watch out for the "moderates" though. They are the real danger. Real moderates would admit flaws and strive to correct them, if not reject completely a blatantly hate filled, intolerant and despotic cult that goes by the name of religion. Instead we get endless articles about how muslims are misunderstood and Islam misinterpreted, and a feverish attempt at cover up. What muslims really want is a planet that is completely muslim. If one were to imagine such a scenario, the "moderates" wouldn't be so moderate after all.

abhab :

You have yourself answered my questions. The problem is you don't see a contradiction in what you write on two separate occasions. On the one hand, you say she (Khadija) was very powerful. On the other hand, she saw power in Muhammad. You didn't want to acknowledge Muhammad (p.b.h)was known to be "Al-Amin"--the trust worthy one.

Muhammad was not granted prophethood when he married her--nor was he so powerful at the time of his marriage to Khadija.

Don't rewrite the history and reinvent the wheel.

HSKNW preaches thus:
“Shannon also explained that there is no blanket condemnation of Judaism or Christianity. On the contrary these faiths and people are addressed as "People of the Book" and are to be respected.”

What follows are the many ways Islam respects the “People of the Book” as codified by the so-called “Omar Pact.”
“We” in what follows stands for Christians and Jews.
1. We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
2. We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.
3. We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.
4.. We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.

And on and on and on as shown in the link cited below. That is not to mention the exorbitant Jizia tax which was meant to further humiliate and impoverish the "People of the Book" so as to force them convert.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact

""why islamic government?" question, but didn't see it."

Posted by: walter-in-fallschurch | May 23, 2009 4:38 P.....

**************************************************************

I don't have an answer. It does not matter what I think. To me, it does not matter what term is used if equality,peace, harmony,and justice are established--a goal that has always been absent. It is a utopia.

abhab,
the concept (and practice!) of honor killings is horrible. there can be no justification for that.

hsnkhwj,
you know, i HAVE seen that post before...

i have to go, but i'll respond to your recent posts probably this evening.

i read them quickly hoping for an answer to the "why islamic government?" question, but didn't see it.

HSKNW asks and I reply.
“If she (Khadija) was so independent why did she hire Muhammad and then marry him?”
Moi: Why does anyone hire a help? Why do women as rich and powerful as the Queen of Great Britain marry?
“Why did she accept Islam if she saw no virtue in Islam's message? You say, she was pretty independent.”
Moi: What she saw was more power and wealth by being hitched to a king - prophet. Got that or should I repeat it.
“Most historians have confirmed that female infanticide was a common practice during pre-Islam period.”
Moi: cite one objective historian. All your information is hearsay from Muslim Arabs who have a “dog in the fight”.
“Even if it was not a common practice, why did they practice even as a ritual? Was it a satanic cult? Isn't even one case too many.”
Moi: There are few very ignorant and primitive people who used to have sacrifice rituals just like the Incas of South America and other cultures. Your sanctimonious hypocrisy is an example of ‘alligator tears’.Instead of crying over few babies who supposedly died over a thousand years ago, why don’t you and your ilks condemn the so-called “honor killings" and the many other crimes against Muslim women that are taking place TODAY.

Walter:

I am enjoying the conversation with you. Whether you and I agree does not matter as long as the discourse is civil.

In contrast, look at CCNL's post at 2:21. All he knows is "cut and paste" the same things over and over. He is incapable of an intelligent conversation.

Why the koran needs significant cleansing and editing:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feuds and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

Walter-in-Falls-Church wroe:

You know, that's an interesting question. i mean, really, why wouldn't god have "revealed" ....
*********************************************************************************

When school teachers teach school kids the realities of sex, mating, sperms, eggs, genes, DNA are not taught to students all at once. If they try to do that they will thoroughly confuse those kids. That is why school curricula are designed at different levels for different grades.

Think of it this way, if you and I knew "everything" from the moment we learned reading and writing, life would have been dull and boring. The excitement of learning new things would be absent.

The very nature of science is that there are no final answers. There is always a previously built paradigm that guides the scientist to investigate further.

Quran says: "All living things have to taste death".
Biologists say: "The seeds of death are sown at conception." or "there is a finite number of times a cell can divide. Ultimately, it dies.

There is no contradiction.
Faith is not subject to empirical verification. Scientists have not been able to give a satisfactory explanation of where did matter come from?

Faith says: Matter was created by the Creater (God).Who created the creator? Quran says that the Creator was neither created by anyone nor He has any human qualities.

Again, Urdu Muslim poet Ghalib wrote 150 years ago:
Na tha kuch to khuda thaa, kuch na hota to khuda hota
Diboyal mujh ko hone-nein, na hota main to
kya hota

Translation:
When there was nothing, God was there
My existence doomed me, it would not have mattered if I did not exist.

abhab :

A bunch of bulls!

If she was so independent why did she hire Muhammad and then marry him?

Why did she accept Islam if she saw no virtue in Islam's message? You say, she was pretty independent.

Most historians have confirmed that female infanticide was a common practice during Jahilia.

Even if it was not a common practice, why did they practice even as a ritual? Was it a satanic cult? Isn't even one case too many.

Islamophobes want to re-write history and reinvent the wheel.

HSKNW pontificates thus:
“The Arabs of that time buried girls alive, gave no rights of inheritance to women etc treated women as personal property.”
Hogwash!
Khadija, the first wife of the Muslim prophet, lived most of her life before Islam. She owned a thriving business and a thousand camels to transport her wares to Syria and Yemen. She had proposed to and married a man 15 years her junior. She had an army of male employees that included her husband. She traveled alone and never was veiled. Her husband never dared add any co wives to her during her lifetime. (Yet after her death and the advent of Islam, the prophet of Islam began to collect wives and concubines as some nowadays collect stamps).
My question is “How many women today in Mecca, Khadija’s hometown, can dare dream achieve the status that pre-Islam Khadija achieved in the 7th Century?

As to the pre-Islam infanticide that Muslims love to bring out was a very rare occurrence among some Arab tribes that was part of a worship ritual. Anyway it was much less than the women killed today in Muslim societies for things as innocent as not wearing a Hijab and which those societies label as HONOR killings.

Walter-in-Church-Falls:

I do not mean in any insulting way, but believe your line of reasoning is faulty when you use Muslims and Islam as monolithic.

Christians of Haiti are not the same as Christians of Northern Ireland etc.

Muslims the same way.

There are good and bad people everywhere. Not all slenderly-built, blue-eyed white Christians think like Timothy McVeigh.

Interesting article in NY Times yesterday about the near- billionnaire Egyptian convicted of murder of a woman. One Bernie Madoff does not make all Jews to be running ponzi schemes.

No doubt some Muslims (like Taliban) are living a life of despair, while the ruling class of S. Arabia and Kuwait is practicing corruption on a grand scale. I do not know how it can be the fault of Islam.

Pedophiles of Catholic Church are a disgrace to their Church. It is not the church itself.

hsnkhwj,
i lived in afghanistan from 69-73 (son of state department diplomat). we had friends in pakistan and travelled there freely - right throught the khyber pass.

america (state department, peace corps, embassy) was doing all the right humanitarian things there then. i was just a kid, but it seemed to me like "regular" afghans/pakistanis were happy to have us there. we were evacuated from afghanistan when the king was overthrown...by islamists...

i read that part of our current aid to pakistan for swat refugees is $ to BUY food from other places in pakistan and take it to the camps. that's a better idea that just bringing food. it's local food, and $ goes to pakistani farmers. this administration (obama) is so much more nuanced and wiser than our last one.

america does so much for other countries and are still reviled by much of the world (but there's no shortage of people who want to come live here.)

"

hsnkhwj,
i just read an article about the taliban in the swat valley. from the bulk of your comments, i assume you think the taliban are not interpreting the koran/hadith correctly, right? i mean, you think they're not living in the true spirit of islam, right?

can you describe what they're doing wrong?

Posted by: walter-in-fallschurch | May 23, 2009 10:59 AM"

*********************************************************

I do not have any first hand knowledge of Taliban. I know only what I read in the newspapers or watch on TV. I think the Taliban are despicable illiterate or semi-literate ignorant people. They are a black mark on Islam. They do things that are totally un-Islamic.

What is the solution? Only time will tell.

I think the long term solution in that area will be liberal arts education, employment and retooling of their agriculture.

I saw on CBS News that Americans are teaching them to grow lettuce, tomatoes and other produce instead of growing poppy. That is a correct approach.I applaud this approach.

hsnkhwj,
enjoyable conversation.

re: "internationally accepted norms"

i'm afraid to say i think islam STILL operates under the "accepted norms" of 700 A.D....
______________________________--

i asked a question either here or on the other thread about "islamic countries". why is there such a thing? it seems immoral to me. why can't "muslim countries" just be countries with muslims living there? why does the government have to be muslim? i think there are something like 56 "muslim countries" in the world - presumably countries where "no law may be enacted that contradicts the undisputed rules of islam". why can't these countries be able to enact whatever (humane) laws they want - and muslims living there would still be free to live by the undisputed rules of islam, but everyone else doesn't have to.

why is islam a government thing?

Walter-in-Curch Falls wrote:

"In accordance with accepted international norms, Islam does permit fighting in self-defence, as a last resort, or on behalf of those who have been expelled forcibly from their...

******************************************************************

The key word is "internationally accepted"
norms.

What internationally accepted norms were there 14-15 centuries ago?

The Arabs of that time buried girls alive, gave no rights of inheritance to women etc treated women as personal property.

Islam put that society upside down and created a new social order. Women were given rights to inherit property, prohibited killing girls (female infanticide) and a host of other reforms.

When second Caliph of Islam (Omar) witnessed an old man begging. Upon inquiry, he found out that that man was a Jew. He ordered the state treasury to give him (the beggar) a lifetimes allowance (pension). The caliph stated that the man paid jiziya (tax on dhimis) when he was younger. It is now responsibility of the State to pay him back in the form of pension.

Dhimis paid jiziya and in return were given protection. They were also exempt from serving in the Army.

Given the time of 14-15 centuries ago, this was a remarkable principle.

There is no jiziya in any of the Islamic countries today.

Peace, Walter!

hsnkhwj, you asked,
"Do you think that under the prevailing paradigm and lack of knowledge of 14-15 centuries ago, the explanation should have been sperms, eggs, genes, chromosomes? Who would have understood those terms then?"
__________________________________

you know, that's an interesting question. i mean, really, why wouldn't god have "revealed" some true information - he could have told us about genes and dna etc... instead, religious books promulgate the prevailing misconceptions.

take an example from the bible: genesis 1.

why did god have moses write down something that's plainly WRONG. why not explain about the billions of years of evolution prior to man's evolution. why present things in the wrong order: genesis claims that "grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind," were the first life forms on earth.

as an atheist the answer is pretty easy - god DIDN'T tell moses anything, and whoever wrote genesis was just promulgating the prevailing (ignorant) beliefs about the origins of life.

and, why didn't god tell the ancients that the world is not flat - despite the fact that it sure SEEMS flat? why didn't god tell the ancients they are spinning at about 1000 mph around the center of the earth, while the earth istelf is orbiting the sun at about 67,000 mph? in stead scripture talks about "immovable foundations" and "waters 'under' the earth".

to me, these are evidences that ancient scripture IS NOT divinely inspired.

hsnkhwj,
i just read an article about the taliban in the swat valley. from the bulk of your comments, i assume you think the taliban are not interpreting the koran/hadith correctly, right? i mean, you think they're not living in the true spirit of islam, right?

can you describe what they're doing wrong?

What was man created from?

Do you think that under the prevailing paradigm and lack of knowledge of 14-15 centuries ago, the explanation should have been sperms, eggs, genes, chromosomes? Who would have understood those terms then?

The Quran also says that man was created from dust or clay. Those who know the science of ecology today know that all life forms are recycled.

A famous Muslim Urdu poet named Ghalib wrote some 150 years ago:

Zindagi kya hai anasir ka zohoore-trateeb
maut kya hai inhi ajza ka preshan hona

Translation :

Life is an arrangement of elements in a sequence

Death is disintegration of that sequence of elements.

Chromosomes were discovered in 1902 by Sutton and DNA sequence and genes much later. Long after he wrote that poem.

Ghalib also says:

Sub kahan kuch lalao gul mein numayan ho gaeen

khak mein kya surthein houn gi jo pinha ho gaeen

Translation:

They reappeared in the form of flowers and shrubs

what beautiful faces they must have been when they were buried in the dust (graves)

We must not apply the prevailing concepts and paradigms of today to centuries ago's time because no one was capable of understanding today's pradims then.

hsnkhwj,
you might think the "people of the book" thing represents a tolerant perspective. but it really doesn't. firstly, "people of the book" (dimmhis, right?) are required to live as second-class citizens in an "islamic society", and what about people NOT of the book? such is the "tolerance" in islam that there are two levels of discrimination allowed (required?) toward non-muslims.

i truly believe that you average muslim out there couldn't give a darn about what osama bin laden thinks and just wants to live his/her own life. but these people, THE MODERATES, have to TEACH the OTHER MUSLIMS how to interpret the koran/hadith in the nice, somewhat conciliatory, way shannon describes.

hsnkhwj,
i read all of your posts from that article. by and large it seems like a really good way to make the best of a "difficult" book. the problem is there are many verses that say just the opposite of the verses shannon quotes.

and there are places where islam oversteps its bounds, probably w/o even realizing it. for example, shannon says,

In accordance with accepted international norms, Islam does permit fighting in self-defence, as a last resort, or on behalf of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. However it lays down strict rules of combat that include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees and livestock; the Qur'an also insists on cessation of fighting as soon as the need for self-defence has gone.
"Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors." (Surah Al Baqarah, Chapter 2 verse 190)

but the NEXT verses say,
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers." (2:191)

and, how do you square this idea of "limits" on warfare with:

"Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (9:5)?

you can see the intolerance here. it says essentially, "forgive them if they become muslim."
________________________________

anyway, at least you have to admit the koran makes it easy for muslims to be intolerant. muslims must be very clever, knowledgeable and selective to make the koran seem like an enlightened book.

There is this myth of abrogation of verses in Quran.

All verses must be read in the context of the day on which they arrived.

Shannon explained the principle of self-defense. If a particular group was trying to kill the prophet for preaching monotheism , then the verse refers to the group of attackers.

Shannon also explained that there is no blanket condemnation of Judaism or Christianity. On the contrary these faiths and people are addressed as "People of the Book" and are to be respected.

My last post of May 23 at 8:10 AM should have been addressed to Shark 2 and not to HSKNW.
What follows is addressed to HSKNW
You say:
"Each person has the right to complete freedom of belief.
And you quote:
"Let there be no compulsion in religion". (Surah al Baqarah, Chapter 2 verse 256)."
This is disingenuous since it is universally known by Muslims that the above verse, which was among the earliest "revealed" in Mecca, was later abrogated by many Medina verses such as 9:5 and 9:29 and many others which incite hate and violence against the non-Muslims till they convert.

Shark2, now where have we seen that name before??

HSKNW:
What was man created from? A blood clot [ Quran 96:1-2], water [ Q 21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [ Q 15:26], dust [ Q 3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [ Q 19:67] and this is then denied in Q 52:35, earth [ Q11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [ Q 16:4, 75:37].
You comment:
“There is nothing wrong with all the above statements of the Quran.”
Moi: If you do not see anything wrong with all those contradictions, then no one should be surprised about the way you process reality or be offended by what you say. You just can't help it.

hsnkhwj

I read your posts and found them very informative.
This is the true picture of Islam presented by Shanon.
Salam

Abhab

You wrote:
One example out of hundreds
1. What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]

You are a most silly person i encountered. There is nothing wrong with all the above statements of the Quran. As you want to remain intentionally stupid therefore I will not tell you how.

CCNL ABHAB and Helocelz1 have nothing new to say.

There reference to Islamophobic websites
shows how they mislead the readers with third grade sites of their masters with whom they are attached.
These cowards have no thinking of there own to present,except to cut/paste same things again and again.

They criticize Islam, but they never tell the readers what they believe in . Do they have anything positive to say or their upper chamber is just empty?

The koran is fine, religious textbooks are religious textbooks, we should know our own better and we would understand. Iustum bellum, yes, yes, no, no, thats common, deeply human and necessary. But we should be realist as far as the identification with the host nation is concerned. What do they identify with? What is the standard of Gallup? The state is not a service center. You see it how double citizenship is discussed. Turks see no problem. But the problem of gouverning one country by anothers countries citizens is real. Not to mention another state acting directly and contrary to a countries ordre public.

"in a free society, social cohesion cannot mean conformity of thought and appearance"

I feel terrible for saying this but is this really true?

I don't mean total conformity, keep your headscarf and build a minaret in the town square I don't care but "attitudes on premarital and extra-marital relations, viewing pornography and abortion" (side note way to hit the hot button issues twist/avoid women's rights and personal freedom) for the most part it's hard to see the value of Muslims opinons on these. I know everyone in a democracy should have an equal say but the facts of freedom in the Islamist world are few and far between.

seriously...who sponsors these "studies"?

HSKNW challenges the readers thus:
“The Qur'an claims to be the direct word of God. “Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than God, they would have found therein much incongruity.” (Surah An-Nisaa': Chapter 4, verse 82).

I agree! The link below shows a number of sets of internal and external contradictions (incongruities). Check them out!
www.danielpipes.org/comments/137238

One example out of hundreds
1. What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]

Hsknw preach us thus:
“Early Orientalists called Islam ‘Mohammedanism', implying that Muslims worshipped him. However, a "Muslim" is, by definition, "one who submits to God" and to God alone.”

Submission to Allah was what Mohammad wanted it the Muslims to believe, but in reality the submission was to Mohammad’s will. It was Mohammad who got fifth of the loot obtained by raiding the different Arab and Jewish tribes of Arabia and not Allah. He convinced his followers of his go-in-between role by obsessively linking his name with Allah’s and clearly emphasizing that doing his will is doing Allah’s will as shown by some such verses shown below.

"And obey Allah and the Messenger, that ye may obtain mercy." [Qur'ân 3:132]
"O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life." [Qur'ân 8:24]

"He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah." [Qur'ân 4:80]"
"Say: If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you sins." [Qur'ân 3:31]
etc, etc, etc.

Apparently, hsnkhwj and Shannon badly need some help in freeing themselves from the Three B Syndrome, i.e. being Born, Bred and Brainwashed in Islam.

And help has arrived with the Five Step Method to Deprogram/"Deflaw" 1400 years of Islamic mumbo jumbo.

Are you ready?

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.

2. "To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or the "great Babs" or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy".

Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

The simple fact is that the point in Europe has been reached where oil-prosituting nations, among them France, England, and Germany have banded together to advise European Jews on how to protect themselves from, GUESS WHOM?

Now, this isn't the first time that the Ruropean Christians have left the European Jews to fend for themselves, but they were fending, in the past, against the Christians' co-religionists.

A few other absurdly simple facts: Muslims, particularly those of Middle Eastern descent, do face discrimination throughout Europe from the European Christians. The same is true of Hindus, but to a somewhat lesser degree. The same is true of Jews, but they are used to it from the Christians.

More facts: As in Brooklyn, so in Europe. There are estimable Islamic Centers, and many, many more mosqs run by foaming at the mouth mullahs whose speech, which should be hilarious, proves deadly.
Yes, the majority of Muslims would like a peaceful world. Yes, the oil-prostituting nations have a lot to account for.

And, yes, so do those Muslims in a position to act. Some are. Many, many more need to do so. Not only in the West, but in the Middle East.

As my formerly Muslim husband often says, the keys to the shackles of oppression are in the hands of the Muslim people. They just need to open their fists.

page 1 of Shannon's comment:

Who or what is Allah?
Allah is the Arabic word for God. Allah is a unique name in Arabic. Muslims prefer to use Allah because it is neither masculine nor feminine and cannot be made plural.
Muslims believe there is only one God and therefore believe that all people believing in God – whether Christians, Jews or those of no specific faith - believe in the same One God. Throughout time and place, there have been and are many names for the One God. In Hebrew, the word for God is Eloh. Arab Christians refer to God as Allah.
www.lucybushillmatthews.com
God is described in the Qur'an by his qualities, or Names. Muslims believe He does not have any children, get tired or have other human-like qualities.
“God! There is no God save Him, the Living, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. Unto Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the Earth. Who is he that intercedes with Him save by His leave? He knows that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).” (Surah Al-Baqarah, Chapter 2 Verse 255)

Do Muslims worship Muhammad?
Early Orientalists called Islam ‘Muhammadanism', implying that Muslims worshipped him. However, a "Muslim" is, by definition, "one who submits to God" and to God alone. God says in the Qur'an:
"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the One on whom all depend; He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none comparable to Him" (Surah Al-Ikhlas, Chapter 112 Verse 1-4)

"Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many were the messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will you then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to God; but God (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude." (Surah Al Imran, Chapter 3 Verse 114)

Last but p. 16 of Shannon's comment:

Do Muslims believe in Jesus?
According to Muslim belief, Jesus, son of Mary, is one of the greatest messengers of God. Jesus' birth without a father is considered to be a God-sent miracle, in the same way as Adam's birth without either a father or a mother was a God-sent miracle. Muslims believe in the many miracles of Jesus Christ during his life, believe he ascended into Heaven alive (unlike almost all other prophets, including Muhammad, who died naturally), and believe he will one day come back again to rule.
However, Jesus is not considered by Muslims to be divine: instead he is accorded the status of a Prophet. Muslims believe that about 124,000 Prophets were sent over time and to different communities - and Muslims believe in all of them. 25 are mentioned by name in the Qur'an, including Adam, Jonah, Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Joseph, David, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad. Muslims are encouraged to say ‘'Peace be upon him'' after every Prophet's name, as a mark of respect.

Are those who are not Muslims considered to be infidels?
All people, whatever their belief, are “children of Adam'' and part of the human race: Muslims must therefore treat each and every person with humanity.
Infidel is not a word ever used in the Qur'an. A Muslim is one who believes in and submits to God, as well as who believes in Muhammad and the other Prophets; a muslim (with a small ‘'m'') is a much broader term and means anyone who submits to God (this is similar to the current use of conservative/Conservative).
God says “Whoever submits his whole self to God and is a doer of good, he will get his regard with his Lord, on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” (Surah al Baqarah, Chapter 2 Verse 256).
Finally, freedom of conscience is laid down by the Qur'an: "There is no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clearly from falsehood; whoever rejects evil and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And God is All-Hearing and All-Knowing." (Surah Al Baqarah, Chapter 2 Verse 256)

Do Muslims believe in Angels?
Muslims believe that angels have been created by God from light. They have no free will and fulfil certain functions in the service of God. They also worship God. Angels mentioned by name in the Quran and Hadith (the words of Muhammad) include:
•Gabriel (Jibreel in Arabic), the leader of the angels. His function was mainly to bring revelation to people, including to Mary, mother of Jesus, and to Muhammad.
•Azrael (Azraeel in Arabic), the Angel of Death.

Last but p. 15 of Shannon's comment:

Did Muhammad write the Qur'an?
The Qur'an reveals extensive knowledge of historical events and previous prophets. Some non-Muslims believe that Muhammad obtained this knowledge from Christians, copying the stories from the Bible. It is true that many of the same events and prophets are mentioned in the Qur'an as in the Bible.
However, there are many key differences that make Muslims consider it impossible for Muhammad to have written the Qur'an. For example, in the Qur'an, the world is said to have been created in six periods of time (e.g. 7:54), rather than in six days as in the Biblical version. In the Qur'an, both Adam and Eve were tempted by Satan (7:22-23) and subsequently asked for and received forgiveness; in the Biblical version, it was Eve alone who was tempted, and who was punished by God with painful childbirth for all womankind (Genesis 3:12-17). The crucifixion is an essential part of Christian theology yet according to the Qur'anic account, Jesus was not crucified - although it appeared as if he was (4:157). The Qur'an also explains many natural phenomena which were not mentioned in the Bible and which were unknown at the time: for example, the stages of formation of the embryo in the womb (53:46; 76:2; 23:14).
The Qur'an claims to be the direct word of God. “Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than God, they would have found therein much incongruity.” (Surah An-Nisaa': Chapter 4, verse 82).
The Qur'an clearly says that Muhammad could not read or write himself. “And you (O Muhammad) were not a reader of any scripture before it, nor did you write it with your right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood.” (Surah Al Ankabut, Chapter 29 verse 48). Muslims believe Muhammad received revelations from God through the Angel Gabriel; he then immediately ordered his companions to memorise them. The companions subsequently wrote the verses down in Arabic. While the Qur'an exists today in Arabic exactly as it was in the seventh century, there are numerous different translations in over 40 languages.

Last but p. 14 of Shannon's comment:

Acts of Worship
Do Muslims really manage to pray five times a day?
Muslims believe God has asked them to perform formal prayers five times a day, within specified time periods. These prayers serve as a constant reminder thought the day to live life in a good way. Each prayer usually takes no longer than five minutes. The preparation and performance of prayer is meant to be physically, mentally and spiritually uplifting, allowing the person praying to temporarily forget worldly concerns, and to focus on praising and worshipping God. Of course, some Muslims will not pray the full number of prayers; some Muslims do not pray at all.
In addition to the formal prayers in Arabic, a Muslim can make their own personal prayers in their own language directly to God, at any time, anywhere, in their own way. These are called duas, or supplications.
Why do Muslims have to pray towards Makkah?
Muslims pray towards the Kabah, a simple cube structure, which is in Makkah. Muslims believe it is the first and most ancient house of worship built for humankind, originally built by Adam, and subsequently rebuilt by Abraham and his son Ishmael.
The Kabah is simply a focal point, to unite the Muslim community through the world in their worship of God. God exists beyond time and space.
If a Muslim does not know the direction of the Kabah, then he or she can pray anyway.
‘It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the angels, and the book, and the messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and give zakah [obligatory charity]; to fulfill the contracts which you have made; and to be firm and patient in pain [or suffering] and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.' (Surah Al-Baqarah, Chapter 2 Verse 177).

Last but p. 13 of Shannon's comment:

In addition to the formal prayers in Arabic, a Muslim can make their own personal prayers in their own language directly to God, at any time, anywhere, in their own way. These are called duas, or supplications.
Why do Muslims have to pray towards Makkah?
Muslims pray towards the Kabah, a simple cube structure, which is in Makkah. Muslims believe it is the first and most ancient house of worship built for humankind, originally built by Adam, and subsequently rebuilt by Abraham and his son Ishmael.
The Kabah is simply a focal point, to unite the Muslim community through the world in their worship of God. God exists beyond time and space.
If a Muslim does not know the direction of the Kabah, then he or she can pray anyway.
‘It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the angels, and the book, and the messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and give zakah [obligatory charity]; to fulfill the contracts which you have made; and to be firm and patient in pain [or suffering] and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.' (Surah Al-Baqarah, Chapter 2 Verse 177).
How do Muslims manage in Ramadan without drinking water?
Every year, for one lunar month known as Ramadan, Muslims abstain from food, drink and sexual relations from dawn to sunset.
"O you who believe! Fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed to those before you that you may achieve God consciousness." (Surah Al Baqarah, Chapter 2 Verse 183)
Fasting is a time of reflection and appreciation of all that we have; a time for increased devotion towards God, a time of generosity towards those less fortunate, and a time of unity with others who are fasting. It is also a time of developing self-restraint. Weight loss is not meant to be an objective of fasting. It can be hard without water particularly when the days are long and the weather hot, but the mind is a powerful tool and those who are fasting know that they are more fortunate than many to be able to have fresh water and food at the end of the day.

Last but p.12 of Shannon's comment:

Whom do Muslims have to give their charity to?
Once one's wealth exceeds a certain minimum, Muslims have an obligation to give away 2.5% of their savings annually, to purify their wealth while helping the poor and needy. Muslims calculate their own charity payment and choose which people or organisations to give to.
Muslims may also give as much additional voluntary charity as they wish. Muhammad said: "Charity is prescribed for each descendant of Adam every day the sun rises." He was then asked: "From what do we give charity every day?" Muhammad answered: "The doors of goodness are many...enjoining good, forbidding evil, removing harm from the road, listening to the deaf, leading the blind, guiding one to the object of his need, hurrying with the strength of one's legs to one in sorrow who is asking for help, and supporting the feeble with the strength of one's arms-all of these are charity prescribed for you." Even a smile is charity.

Last bu p. 11 of Shannon's comment:

What is Hajj all about?
The pilgrimage to Makkah in Saudi Arabia is an obligation for men and women, once in a Muslim's lifetime, for those who are physically and financially able to visit.
Hajj consists of a series of ritual acts, symbolic of the lives of Abraham (Ibrahim), his wife Hagar (Hajar), and their son Ishmael (Ismail). On Hajj, all male pilgrims, regardless of nationality or wealth, are required to dress in a garment consisting of two sheets of white unhemmed cloth. It is a pilgrimage of absolute equality between men and women, and between different races and classes.
Malcolm X wrote about Hajj: “During the past eleven days here in the Muslim world, I have eaten from the same plate, drunk from the same glass and slept in the same bed (or on the same rug)-while praying to the same God with fellow Muslims, whose eyes were the bluest of the blue, whose hair was the blondest of blond, and whose skin was the whitest of white. And in the words and in the actions and in the deeds of the ‘white' Muslims, I felt the same sincerity that I felt among the black African Muslims of Nigeria, Sudan and Ghana. We are truly all the same - brothers.''
The close of Hajj is celebrated with a holiday known as Eid ul Adha, the Festival of Sacrifice. This festival celebrates Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son, as God had commanded, as a sign of his devotion. Once Abraham had demonstrated his devotion, God stopped him from sacrificing his son and told him to sacrifice a sheep instead. In commemoration of Abraham's unwavering belief, Muslims everywhere arrange for a sheep to be slaughtered and the meat is then distributed to the poor.

Last but p. 10 of Shannon's comment:

Practices
Is the Muslim Eid like Christmas?
Like Christmas, Eid is a time of major celebration. There are two Eids or festivals a year. However, unlike Christmas, their timing in the solar calendar is not fixed, since they are held in accordance with the lunar calendar, which is 11 days shorter than the solar one. Also unlike Christmas, the festivals are not based on celebrating a birth, but on the completion of two different acts of worship: Ramadan and Hajj.
Eid-ul Fitr is the Festival of Breaking the Fast. It marks the end of Ramadan, the month of fasting for Muslims around the world. The other Eid, Eid-ul-Adha, marks the end of Hajj two months later. Muslims celebrate both Eids by dressing in their best clothes and attending the mosque for a short congregational prayer. Immediately after prayer, Muslims exchange Eid greetings and embrace each other with hugs, before visiting homes of relatives and friends, giving and sharing food, and thanking God for all they have been given. Children are delighted to receive presents of clothes, toys or money.
It is all too easy for Eid, like Christmas, to become commercialised and to lose its original message. Many Muslim businesses will offer ‘Ramadan sales' or ‘Eid specials' to prospective customers.

Last but p. 9 of Shannon's comment:

Why can't Muslims drink alcohol or eat pork?
There are known potential benefits of drinking alcohol in moderate quantities. However social drinking can easily lead to heavier drinking and there are known potential risks from drinking alcohol in large quantities, including fatal accidents, fatal diseases, an increased chance of developing cirrhosis of the liver, increased risks of many different types of cancer; alcohol can also harm an unborn baby.
"They ask you (O Muhammad) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefit for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit."…….." Thus God makes clear to you His Laws in order that you may give thought." (Surah Al Baqarah, Chapter 2 Verse 219)
The Qur'an has not explained the reason for the prohibition of pork. But Muslims are not alone in abstaining from pork: Jews do not eat pork, neither did Jesus; Confucius also advised against it. It may be due to the pig's willingness to eat any kind of food, including dead insects, excreta and rubbish; it may be due to the similarity of human organs to those of the pig.
Some Muslims will not touch pigs. However, pigs are God's creatures and we should show them the same kindness we show any other animal: cruelty to any animal is forbidden in Islam.
Why aren't any images of people or animals allowed in mosques?
The mosque contains no images of people, animals or spiritual figures as Muslims in prayer are supposed to be focusing on God alone. Outside the mosque, many Muslims accept the representation of people and animals, particularly for educational purposes.
The vast majority of Muslims would never consider representing any prophet in any context. In Islam, prophets are highly revered but must not be worshipped in any way: representing them visually may ultimately lead to their worship.

Last but p. 8 of Shannon's comment:

What is Shariah law?
Shariah is more than law: it is a set of principles and morals, based on the Qur'an and the hadith (the record of actions and sayings of Muhammad), as well as ijma, (consensus of scholars) and qiyas (analogy). Literally, Shariah means ‘'the way or the path to water (or life)''.
"To each among you, we have prescribed a law and a clear way.” (Surah Al Maida, Chapter 5 Verse 48)
Shariah deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including finance, banking and contracts (e.g. investing, use of interest), family law (eg marriage, divorce, custody, inheritance), social issues (eg dress, hygiene) as well as criminal acts (eg theft, murder).

Some principles are in line with Western notions of human rights e.g. the idea of force majeure in contracts, the presumption of innocence, the principle of precedent in making legal decisions, the prohibition of illegal drugs, the right to privacy, the right of women to own property in their own right. Other principles (e.g. the death penalty allowed for murder under certain circumstances) are in line with notions of human rights in only some Western countries.

What is a fatwa?
A fatwa is an Islamic religious ruling, a scholarly opinion on a matter of Islamic law. It is not binding on the faithful. The people who pronounce these rulings are supposed to be knowledgeable, and base their rulings in knowledge and wisdom. They need to supply the evidence from Islamic sources for their opinions, and it is not uncommon for scholars to come to different conclusions regarding the same issue, or for one scholar to alter his or her conclusions based on additional evidence or changed circumstances. In order to decide whether to follow the fatwa, Muslims look at the opinion, the reputation of the person giving it and the evidence given to support the opinion.

Why do people kill in the name of Islam?
The Qur'an states:"...Whoever kills an innocent soul it is as if he killed the whole of Mankind. And whoever saves one, it is as if he saved the whole of Mankind..." (Surah Al Maidah, Chapter 5 Verse 32)

It is Islamically unlawful to murder an innocent person. Hence, if anyone kills an innocent person, they have committed a grave sin in Islam. Yet innocent people continue

Last but p. 7 of Shannon's comment:

Why do Muslims engage in Holy War?
The word jihad is a word frequently used in the media to mean ‘holy war', yet jihad has never been referred to in this way in the Qur'an. In fact, the term "holy war" was coined in Europe during the period of the Crusades.

In Arabic, the word jihad means ‘to strive, struggle and exert effort'. It is a central and broad Islamic concept that primarily means ‘'to struggle against evil inclinations within oneself.''
Islam is not confined to the boundaries of the individual but extends to the welfare of society and humanity in general. An individual cannot keep improving himself/herself in isolation from what happens in their community or in the world at large. Hence it also means struggle to improve the quality of life in society and the struggle against injustice, oppression and tyranny.

In accordance with accepted international norms, Islam does permit fighting in self-defence, as a last resort, or on behalf of those who have been expelled forcibly from their homes. However it lays down strict rules of combat that include prohibitions against harming civilians and against destroying crops, trees and livestock; the Qur'an also insists on cessation of fighting as soon as the need for self-defence has gone.
"Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors." (Surah Al Baqarah, Chapter 2 verse 190)
"If they seek peace, then you seek peace. And trust in God for He is the One that hears and knows all things." (Surah Al Anfal, Chapter 8, verse 61)

Did Islam spread by the sword?
The Qur'an clearly says "Let there be no compulsion in religion". (Surah al Baqarah, Chapter 2 verse 256). In addition to this, Islam teaches that a person's faith must be pure and sincere, so it cannot be forced on someone.
The idea of forced conversion has been popular in Europe from the time of the Crusades. The (non-Muslim) historian De Lacy O' Leary wrote: "History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever accepted." (Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p. 8). Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years: during this time, and up to when they were finally forced out, non-Muslims there were treated with respect and had flourishing communities. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all have thriving Christian and/or Jewish populations.

Last but page 6 of Shannon's comment:

Did Islam spread by the sword?
The Qur'an clearly says "Let there be no compulsion in religion". (Surah al Baqarah, Chapter 2 verse 256). In addition to this, Islam teaches that a person's faith must be pure and sincere, so it cannot be forced on someone.
The idea of forced conversion has been popular in Europe from the time of the Crusades. The (non-Muslim) historian De Lacy O' Leary wrote: "History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever accepted." (Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p. 8). Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years: during this time, and up to when they were finally forced out, non-Muslims there were treated with respect and had flourishing communities. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all have thriving Christian and/or Jewish populations.

Are Muslims anti-Semitic?
Jews and Christians are given an honourable title in the Qur'an: 'the people of the Book.' Moreover, God has commanded Muslims not to insult other faiths.
Both Jews and Muslims believe in Abraham as their forefather. Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac: Muhammad is descended from Ishmael, and Moses is descended from Isaac. The Semitic language family includes Hebrew and Arabic.
Anti-semitism should not be confused with anti-Zionism. Many people who rightly condemn anti-semitism struggle to understand the Zionist support for the occupation of Palestinian territory which is not legally theirs, and struggle to understand the support for extremely harsh living conditions imposed collectively upon innocent men, women and children living in the Occupied Territories of Palestine.

Last bu page 5 of Shannon's comment:

Does Islam oppress women?
Verses of the Qur'an make it clear that men and women are equal in the sight of God. According to the teachings of Islam, the only thing that distinguishes people in the sight of God is their level of righteousness.
‘'For believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast , for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in God's praise - for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward” (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:35).
Islamic law guaranteed rights to women over 1400 years ago, clearly stating that women have the right to vote, seek an education, own property, financial independence, and to operate a business. These rights were granted to women in Europe and America in the last one hundred years. These rights also came about in a different way to Europe and America, where rights became part of the law only after women had been through great political struggles. In Islam, rights were given by God through revelation and cannot be reversed by anyone's decision.
In Islam, marriage is a partnership between a man and a woman. Muhammad said: "The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife." Muhammad's wife Khadijah was a business woman, and employed Muhammad to work for her: it was she who instigated the marriage proposal. An arranged marriage (where a family member finds a suitable spouse) is another way of finding a spouse. Forced marriage (where a girl/boy is forced to marry against her/his will) is not permitted: in Islam, both parties have the right to consent to their spouse.

Last but page 4 of Shannon's comment:

Does Islam oppress women?
Verses of the Qur'an make it clear that men and women are equal in the sight of God. According to the teachings of Islam, the only thing that distinguishes people in the sight of God is their level of righteousness.
‘'For believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast , for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in God's praise - for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward” (Surah Al-Ahzab 33:35).
Islamic law guaranteed rights to women over 1400 years ago, clearly stating that women have the right to vote, seek an education, own property, financial independence, and to operate a business. These rights were granted to women in Europe and America in the last one hundred years. These rights also came about in a different way to Europe and America, where rights became part of the law only after women had been through great political struggles. In Islam, rights were given by God through revelation and cannot be reversed by anyone's decision.
In Islam, marriage is a partnership between a man and a woman. Muhammad said: "The most perfect in faith amongst believers is he who is best in manner and kindest to his wife." Muhammad's wife Khadijah was a business woman, and employed Muhammad to work for her: it was she who instigated the marriage proposal. An arranged marriage (where a family member finds a suitable spouse) is another way of finding a spouse. Forced marriage (where a girl/boy is forced to marry against her/his will) is not permitted: in Islam, both parties have the right to consent to their spouse.
Throughout the world, there remain many Muslim women who are not able to exercise their rights, within marriage or elsewhere - this is due to local cultural or traditional practices that persist in spite of Islam, not because of it. There are other women who are also not able to exercise their rights: victims of domestic violence can be found within many countries and cultures.

The simple fact is that the point in Europe has been reached where oil-prosituting nations, among them France, England, and Germany have banded together to advise European Jews on how to protect themselves from, GUESS WHOM?

Now, this isn't the first time that the Ruropean Christians have left the European Jews to fend for themselves, but they were fending, in the past, against the Christians' go-religionists.

A few other absurdly simple facts: Muslims, particularly those of Middle Eastern descent, do face discrimination throughout Europe from the European Christians. The same is true of Hindus, but to a somewhat lesser extent. The same is true of Jews, but they are used to it from the Christians.

More facts: As is Brooklyn, so in Europe. There are estimable Islamic Centers, and many, many more mosq's run by foaming at the mouth mullahs whose speech, which should be hilarious, proves deadly.

Yes, the majority of Muslims would like a peaceful world. Yes, the oil-prostituting nations have a lot to account for.
And, yes, so do those Muslims in a position to act. Some are. Many, many more need to do so. Not only in the West, but in the Middle East.

As my formerly Muslim husband often says, the keys to the shackles of oppression are in the hands of the Muslim people. They just need to open their fists.

Last but 3 page of Shannon's comment:

Why are Muslim men allowed more than one wife?
Polygamy is the practice of having more than one spouse simultaneously; polygyny is the specific practice of having more than one wife simultaneously. In pre-Islamic Arabia, polygyny was a normal custom, and there were no limitation on the number of wives a man may have. Islam placed a limitation for men to have no more than four wives.
There are a number of possible practical reasons why polygyny is allowed in Islam. In times of war, it can be used to look after the widows who are left behind, and who may not be financially able to look after themselves or their children. In addition, a man who discovers that his wife is barren or is chronically ill, but who wishes to have children of his own or satisfy his natural instinct in a legitimate way, while still caring for his first wife, can also turn to polygyny as a solution.
Polygyny may be likened to the practice of having a mistress by some, but a non-Muslim male has no legal obligations or responsibilities towards his mistress(es) and their children. A Muslim husband has the same legal obligations and responsibilities towards his second, third, or fourth wife and their children as he has towards his first wife and children. Moreover, the man must live with all of his wives on a footing of equality and kindness. To fulfil these conditions is no easy task: if a man feels unable to treat his wives fairly with kindness and love, then he is commanded by God not to take more than one wife.
"… then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one...." (Surah An-Nisa, Chapter 4 Verse 3)
In practice, it is rare for a Muslim man to marry more than one wife.

Why did Muhammad have so many wives?
Muhammad was married to one woman, Khadijah, for 25 years.
After her death, Muhammad had multiple wives, as a practical way of taking responsibility for divorcees and widows and their children, and as a means of integration of the newly founded society. Many of these marriages were for political reasons, in order to strengthen the fragile early Muslim community. He treated each one fairly and with kindness.

Last but 2 page of Shannon's comment:

What does Islam say about sex outside marriage?
In Islam, marriage is described as a union between a man and a woman who are not closely related. Sex within marriage is considered a blessing. However, all sex outside of marriage is forbidden - it does not matter whether that relationship is fornication (sex between unmarried people), adultery (involving a married person), bestiality, incest, pederasty (a sexual relationship between adult and child) or homosexuality.
However there are different degrees of wrongness in Islam. One of the principles of Islamic jurisprudence is: harm should be removed. This means that which is harmful must be avoided where possible; where it is not possible, the lesser of two evils should be perpetrated to avoid the greater. In this context, safe sex outside of marriage is ‘'less wrong'' than unsafe sex, which can hurt so many more people.
Some people have a very negative view of those with HIV and AIDS, assuming it was contracted due to sex outside marriage. Yet HIV and AIDS may be contracted in a variety of other ways (for example a wife infected by the husband who is HIV positive; a child infected through mother-to-child transmission). Even if HIV and AIDS was contracted through sex outside of marriage, Muslims should be adopting the fundamental values as found in the Qur'an: justice (adl), benevolence (ihsan), compassion (rahmah) and wisdom

Last but one page of Shannon's comment:

Are most Muslims Arab?
Muslims come from a diverse array of races, nationalities and linguistic backgrounds. Less than 20% of the Muslim population is Arab. There are more Indonesian Muslims than Indian or Arab Muslims.
Turkey and Iran are not Arab countries: the native tongue of people who live in those countries is not Arabic and they are of a different ethnic heritage to the Arabs.

And not all Arabs are Muslims. An Arab can be a Muslim, Christian, Jew, atheist - or of any other religion or ideology.

If you become Muslim, do you have to change your name?
To become Muslim, you simply need to say the declaration of faith, with knowledge of what it means and with sincerity of belief. The declaration is: ‘'I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except God and Muhammad is His messenger."
Any name is ‘Muslim' as long as it is inoffensive; it is preferable for it to have a positive meaning. However, many Muslims give their children Arabic names, to assist with their sense of faith identity.
Muhammad did insist on changing the name of a man previously known as Abdu Shams, since his name had the meaning ‘Slave of the Sun'. The first African convert to Islam was Bilal, an Ethiopian, who kept his name and whose name is now popular with Muslims throughout the world.

Last page: Shanon's comment

If you are Muslim and want to get married, do you have to marry a Muslim?
Muslim men can marry Jewish and Christian women, who are referred to as "People of the Book." This comes from the understanding that Jews and Christians share similar religious outlooks - a belief in One God, following the commandments of God, a belief in revealed scripture (Books), etc.

"This day are all things good and pure made lawful to you.... Lawful to you in marriage are not only chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time, when you give them their due dowers, and desire chastity not lewdness. If anyone rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost" (Surah Al-Mai'dah, Chapter 5 Verse 5).

However, it is easiest, both in terms of compatibility and for the upbringing of future children, for a Muslim man or woman to marry another Muslim.

What will happen to a Muslim if he or she doesn't want to be Muslim any more?
Each person has the right to complete freedom of belief.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion". (Surah al Baqarah, Chapter 2 verse 256).

There is an idea that Islam advocates killing apostates. Fighting – and killing- is only permitted against those individuals who fight -and kill- the Muslims. This is so whether or not they used to be considered Muslims.
Posted On: Thursday, May. 21 2009 @ 9:00PM

Posted by: hsnkhwj | May 22, 2009 6:51 PM

Last Page: SHANON's Comment

The Islamophobes posting here should read a rather long comment (blog) by someone named Shannon on Jack Silverman's article in Nashville Scene. She does a marvelous job in explaining what Islam is all about.

Islamic and Other Realities 101:

For those eyes that have not seen:

And what have history, scriptural text reviews and archeology taught us about the foundations of various religions to include Wicca?

1. Abraham is the reported founder of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Based on all we know now, Abraham was at best a combination of three separate individuals with 1.5 million Conservative Jews no longer believing he existed at all. (ditto for all the characters in the OT).

references: National Georgraphic review on Abraham and http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0401torah.asp

2. The founders of Christianity and Islam were both illiterate. i.e. neither one proof read or approved the NT or the Koran so we are taking the word of scribes and embellishers with their own agendas.

references: NT exegetes from the last two hundred years, Karen Armstrong's reviews of Islam and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

3. Christianity is based on the whim of Pilate, the false prophesy of the imminent second coming, and the sword of Constantine.

references: NT exegetes and their conclusions/books from the last two hundred years

4. Wiccans, as followers of Wicca are now commonly known, typically worship a God[3] (traditionally the Horned God) and a Goddess (traditionally the Triple Goddess), who are sometimes represented as being a part of a greater pantheistic Godhead, and as manifesting themselves as various polytheistic deities. Other characteristics of Wicca include the ritual use of magic, a liberal code of morality and the celebration of eight seasonal-based festivals.

reference: The "Book of Wikipedia" under Wicca.

The above two commnets are a dispaly of the usual steryotyping, bigtory and ignorance.

Observe this comment:" Muslims need to clean up the koran. Then and only then can there be any dialogue with them.
Posted by: CCNL."

Why attack the Koran when you don't undrestand it at all-perhaps you need to celan up your ignorance and do some serious reading.

In fact,what you are demanding is that 1.5 billion Muslims become UN-Muslim as a condition to just have the great honor to be alllowed to tlak with you!!!! Trust me Muslims don't need to talk to some one like you.

I suggest you read Mohammad Asad's "The Road to Mecca" and his transaltion of the Holy Koran into English which took him 17 years of dedicated and scholraly work.

"Muslims need to clean up the koran. Then and only then can there be any dialogue with them. CCNL"

Well, by that standard, maybe you should expurgate your Bible of offensive phrases, CCNL. Bold words in generl coming from someone who demands everyone obey our book but won't even accept half of what's in it. But that's all about *you.*

As for Muslims in Europe, I can definitely see a lot of tension. If I went to a Muslim country, never mind moved there, and didn't cover my head, I'd be likely to be called an 'ugly American imperialist' and find social life very complicated, if not dangerous.

Rightly or wrongly, a lot of folks in Europe, still kind of weary from world wars, not to mention all the history leading up to those, aren't really terribly interested in people rioting in the streets over cartoons.

That kind of stuff only suits the xenophobic maniacs.

The specifics aren't even that much different from how the Irish were greeted. Most particularly because of Catholicism, but also cultural things.

Pluralism has to actually be pluralism, not just people only screaming when they aren't the majority.

CCNL says:
“Muslims need to clean up the koran. Then and only then can there be any dialogue with them.”

If they are to remove all the verses that rational people find offensive and unsuitable for the present age, then I guarantee you nothing would be left of their main scriptures but a few silly fables.

Europe's misundestood muslims...
USA's misunderstood muslims...
Australia's misunderstood muslims...
Sub-Continent's misunderstood muslims...

Isnt there anyone who understands muslims on the earth ?
They always misunderstand muslims.Very interesting.....
Is this a matter of Perception or realities of muslims ?

They came to Egypt and killed Civilization in Egypt. Isnt it understood ?
They came to Iran and Persopolis vanished.Isnt it percepted ?
They came to Europe in order to feed their hungry stomachs,but later crap into European Civilization and muslims misunderstood by Europeans....

*Diversity as a national strength*...Empty word...
Everyone will see what happens in Europe next twenty years.

Muslims need to clean up the koran. Then and only then can there be any dialogue with them.