Reading the article by Mokhtar Ghambou and the 36 comments that follow it has not changed my conviction that it irrational to believe that in a mountain's cave near Mecca, about 14 centuries ago, it happened you know what. It seems to me rational to believe that we have evolved from another animal species. Also the fact that there are animal that to survive have to eat meat - that is killing other animals- goes against a world created by a "just?" loving superbeing.

Morocco indeed is a bastion of Sufi Islam. One can find Sufi Islam frequently outside the Arab states: It's strongholds are the former Yugoslavia, Turkey, Morocco, South Asia and to a lesser extent, Indonesia. Morocco has its Salafi fringes, but that is largely due to the retrenchment of the state in the education sector and Salafi groups moving in to fill that void. Unlike Algeria, few Moroccans fought in the Soviet-Afghan war.

As to the issue of treatment of Jews, it is mixed. Indeed, there were no pogroms to the extent one saw in Russia. The government did not seize their babies as they did in Yemen. They were not imprisoned as they were in Egypt, nor were they expelled as they were in Jordan. However, they were ghettoized and the second-class citizenship was significant enough that the majority of Jews immigrated following the establishment of the state of Israel. This stands in contrast to Iran and Iraq, where Jews were better integrated into the economy and treated as more or less equal citizens prior to 48.

As to the poster who said that somehow people are being paid to post pro-Israel things because of an obnoxious comment about the angel gabriel, did it ever occur to you that people may post on many websites? The particular person may just not be very creative or articulate, given he's actually wrote "wingged thingie" on a post. Perhaps this intolerant blogger spews on many sites.

It is also insulting to say that people are being paid to post pro-Israel things. Many people sympathize with Israel just as many sympathize with the Palestinians and others feel a sympathy toward both sides for different reasons. Posters with these views have every right to post about it without you cheapening and insulting their viewpoints by claiming they are bought-and-paid for. Please put down the conspiracy theory books and educate yourself? This scholar wrote on this board about Sufi Islam in Morocco and you have to cheapen this board by posting about your raging zionist conspiracies.

INFANTRY11B4FAUS,

"trying to make islam acceptable is like trying to make a nazi or a member of the kkk acceptable."

"...under the surface, they are murdering butchers, waiting to kill their enemies,..."

Islam IS acceptable to millions. And millions practice it with no harm to you, america, 'non-believers', other muslims.

Worse than 'islam' is hatred itself. Nazis and the KKK would generalize religions and ethnicity into a distillation that they could loathe and so fuel their violent hatred. Jews, blacks, russians, non-aryans, were ALL "...under the surface, they are murdering butchers..." Nazism succeeded in mass conditioning where all good germans believed the disinformation that a whole religion or a whole people could be generalized and make into an aberation, a monster that does not exist.

This is like saying all dogs are killers and not to be trusted, because a few pit bulls have attacked people over the last ten years. All dogs are monsters.

Your attitude is the disease.

You state the nazi position very well. Personal experience, personal world view? It is hatred, and the willingness to focus on what is evil, and make that evil, in your mind, become all of 'them'.

Them is you.

SALMUNALFARSI :

“The world’s monastic orders, regardless of national location or history, carefully remove themselves from this theocratic obsession with political power."

Thank god that some religious adherents are actual seekers or union with god, instead of being seekers of personal empowerment and institutional theocratic aggrandizement.

GOAWAY41,

Good points in your reply regarding trust of the spiritual leader. Westerners in general and americans in particular are deeply challenged to 'submit' to anything, particularly spiritual guides. Some problem that they have with authority and arrogance. One reason they are compared to adolescents.

It is a great thing to know our place in the world. It takes trust, humility and love to be receptive to what we have no knowledge of, but seek to know. It may be easier to submit to the wisdom of the doctor than the wisdom of a spiritual authority, or a political one...

trying to make islam acceptable is like trying to make a nazi or a member of the kkk acceptable. no matter how nice they are to their own children, or how much they smile, under the surface, they are murdering butchers, waiting to kill their enemies, and only the possibility of punishment, prevents them from acting out their hate.

“Sufis distance themselves from fundamentalists, whose vision of Islam is a strict and Utopian emulation of the Prophet Muhammad and his companions, by placing great emphasis on the community's adaptation to the concerns and priorities of modern times. Sufis neither condemn unveiled women nor censure modern means of entertainment. For them, the difference between virtue and vice is determined on the basis of intent, not appearances.”

The Sufis distanced themselves from the totalitarian ‘cults’ of Islam for the same reason that Franciscans distance themselves from the totalitarian ‘cults’ of Christianity and Zen monks distance themselves from state Buddhism. It doesn’t matter whether one follows the control obsession writings of Al-Bukhari or Constantine I of Rome or of Mao Zedong or of the Haghani of Qom, Iran. All of them considered religion an extension of state control of people and this is a meaningless concept for a Sufi or other monastic spiritual person. If anything, the intermixing of greed for power or control and ‘status’ eliminates spiritual enhancement, as a large number of religious people suspect. The world’s monastic orders, regardless of national location or history, carefully remove themselves from this theocratic obsession with political power. What do they know about the human spirit that politically motivated people fear and will never understand?

HSNJW quotes from an Israeli by the name of Avneri:

“….second Sura, from Quraan verse 256 which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith."

What do you and your friend have to say about 9th Sura verse 29 of the same book which says?
“Fight those who believe not
In Allah nor the Last Day
Nor hold that forbidden
Which hath been forbidden
By Allah and His Apostle (meaning Mohammad)
Nor acknowledge the Religion
Of Truth (meaning Islam)
-----------”

Sufis are not true Muslims. They have copied the Hindu system of Guru/student relationship and the Hindu monistic philosophy of Nonduality (Advaita Vedanta) and Unity (Yoga). They meditate like Hindus and try to become one with the nondual Brahman. This is not Islam (Submission to the best God).

True Muslims believe in the Koran as the word of Allah transmitted by the Prophet (PBUH).
Many people misinterpret the Koran as an intolerant and violent text.

For example, Koran chaper 9 verse 5:
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and kill the nonbelievers wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."

Many Muslims have misinterpreted the Koran and the phrase "kill the nonbelievers" to mean kill the nonbelievers. This has led to centuries of Muslims killing nonbelievers.

If you study the original Arabic, look at this phrase in the correct way in a special context, and then read it right to left or upside down, the phrase "kill the nonbelievers" becomes "respect the nonbelievers".

People should not misinterpret or misread the Koran. It says what it says, and it is the word of Allah - the most superior and greatest god when compared with other peoples gods. Islam is a peaceful and the best religion in the world, especially when compared with stupid religions like Bhuddism, Hinduism, Judaism, & Christianity. I hope someday the whole world becomes Islamic, and stupid philosophies like those in Bhuddism and Hinduism are wiped off the face of the earth forever. No one should be allowed to even read or think about advanced monistic philosophies and ideas like nonviolence and vegetarianism. This makes men weak and diminishes their ability to control women and other people. Inshallah, all other ways of faith and prayer will be completely destroyed. Allah Akhbar.

Actually, respect for "people of the book" has always been contingent on their acquiescence to Muslim rule within Muslim lands. This is why Jews in Israel are attacked, but Jews in Iran live peacefully under the protection of the Ayatollahs. And this is why extremist see attacks on Christian America justified, becaus ethey are seen as being responsible ultimately for attacks on Islam within the Islamic world (as in, we pay taxes to support the US governemnt and elect the leaders who implement the policy).

Iran, though, is a tricky issue in the original discussion of the peaceful aspects of Sufism- most Iranians, notably Ayatollah Khomeini, are (were) also Sufis.

WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book."

Until this generation of course where it has become fashionable to kill Jews and Christians just to stay hip. Answer why that is for yourself then come back and talk. Quit talking to me about it because I conclude from what I observe...and that is that Islam is only a religion of peace if you are Moslem. If you are not, then Islam is a death sentence.

I'd like to reply to "What I do not like about Sufism is the 'unconditional trust of a leader'. Instead of submitting to God, Sufis submit to another human being."

That is not the case or should not be the case. The Murshid helps the student submit to God. If I go to a doctor and the doctor prescribes medicine, then it can be said that in a sense I submit to the doctor because I trust that the doctor is both knowledgeable and skillful. In the same sense, I would trust that the Murshid has the ability to prescribe the correct "medicine" for my spiritual illnesseses.

I honor the Murshid and have the affection and regard for the Murshid that a person would have for a parent who guides the child, but that should not be confused with love and submission to God.

But given the state of the world, there are so-called Murshids who elevate themselves so the student has to exercise discrimination as well as pray for guidance.

While this is only a sidenote, I feel obliged to reply to VJG3's comment about non-Muslim populations in Morocco. True, there are not many present now, but until about 50 years ago there was a thriving Jewish population there. However, most of them have since emigrated to Israel, Europe, or America in search of better economic prospects, not because of religious persecution.

It is the nature of most any form of institution, be it governmental, philosophical, scientific, and certainly religious, to generate branches that cover the spectrum from broad readings to literal, liberal versions to conservative, evolved forms to orthodox ones. This has been and is the case with christianity, judaism , democracy, capitalism... You name it. Maybe it is an evolutionary process. Christians don't currently go around lopping off heads specifically for religious reasons, (though americas majority fundamentalist military leadership has been commanding it's armed forces in the muslim middle east at the behest of a fundamentalist christian administration for awhile now...). But christians have a deep history of violence in 'defense' of their religion. Not much more than a century ago it was pretty widespread, two centuries and it was rampant.

Westerners often view radical islam and jihadism with moral contempt. Good reason to. But we have bloody hands that are not yet so clean and pure. Less than fifty years ago the KKK and Aryan Nations, radicalized groups with christian roots, were strong, and they continue to this day.

But in the west and in america in particular there is huge media misinformation or just a media slant, jumping to post horror stories while omitting many that show a benevolent face to islam. American media benefit from a malevolent islam, not the benevolent one.

This story on sufism is a benevolent one. Why are so many resisting it as either invalid or impotent?

Islam is going through evolution and transformation, and that is good. Muslims around the world have many valid reasons to be in this transformation now, and it will continue with or without a compassionate alliance with the west. Some of it is and will be violent, as transformation can be. We should be supportive to the facets of islam that can help bring about peace and healing, inside as well as outside of it's world. Sufism has been around for a long time, still here for it's obvious appeals, and is one such facet.

hsnkhwj,

Thank you for your input. Appreciated.

VJG3:

Uri Avneri, an Israeli Peace Activist, and a former member of the knesset in his article, Muhhamads Sword" (sept. 27, 2006) wrote:

Some excerpts:

Quoting the second Sura, from Quraan verse 256 which says: "There must be no coercion in matters of faith."


"In 1099, the Crusaders conquered Jerusalem and massacred its Muslim and Jewish inhabitants indiscriminately, in the name of the gentle Jesus. At that time, 400 years into the occupation of Palestine by the Muslims, Christians were still the majority in the country. Throughout this long period, no effort was made to impose Islam on them. .."

"THERE IS no evidence whatsoever of any attempt to impose Islam on the Jews. As is well known, under Muslim rule the Jews of Spain enjoyed a bloom the like of which the Jews did not enjoy anywhere else until almost our time. Poets like Yehuda Halevy wrote in Arabic, as did the great Maimonides. In Muslim Spain, Jews were ministers, poets, scientists. In Muslim Toledo, Christian, Jewish and Muslim scholars worked together and translated the ancient Greek philosophical and scientific texts. That was, indeed, the Golden Age. ..."

"What happened afterwards is even more telling. When the Catholics re-conquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi ("Spanish") Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire ) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust."

"WHY? Because Islam expressly prohibited any persecution of the "peoples of the book." In Islamic society, a special place was reserved for Jews and Christians. They did not enjoy completely equal rights, but almost. They had to pay a special poll-tax, but were exempted from military service--a trade-off that was quite welcome to many Jews. It has been said that Muslim rulers frowned upon any attempt to convert Jews to Islam even by gentle persuasion--because it entailed the loss of taxes."

"Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for 50 generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith."

good for them..they will also be targeted by the murderers of the cancer known as radical islam..

Thanks for the paper. We really need this kind of contribution to change the image linked to people living in muslim countries. Just one additional point: Sufi spirit was also at the roots of the nationalist movement against the french colonization...

This furthers the concept that the struggle is not primarily between the "west" and the Jehadists, but between the moderate Islamists and the Jehadists.

The west is caught in the cross-fire and being dragged in so that the Jehadists can use our neo-colonial interventions to win over converts to their extremism.

Reading about Morocco on wikipedia does not give me rosy picture of Islam as practised in Islam. History or atroricities against Jews and Christians- dhimmi tax, asking them to convert to Islam or leave,

There seem to be no significant population of non-Muslims in Morocco. Does not seem like tolerant version of Islam. Another exclusive and intolerant Islamic nation.

Who cares whether it's paid work? and why? Surely it is the content, the style, and, yes, even the repetitions, that matter. It is possible that the poster repeats him or her self out of feeling and belief rather than payment. I mean, it doesn't take much to do what he or she is doing. Who needs pay for that?

Sufism, like Buddhism, has always seemed to me a gentle religion that nourishes the best in us and thereby shames its militant siblings for their reliance on violence, ignorance, and dogmatism. Praising Sufism, as you do, for being what it is risks bringing down upon it the wrath of those sects that hate it.

What I do not like about Sufism is the 'unconditional trust of a leader'. Instead of submitting to God, Sufis submit to another human being. I watched them on TV sheepishly kiss the hand of the notorious play boy in Europe: the late king of Morocco.
As I understand Islam, it is an instrument to liberate the individual from tyranny (cognitive, emotional and behavioral) of another individual; Sufism currently promotes dependence; a possible license for abuse. Sunnis proclaim: one bows only to God. That, I believe, is liberating.

I (CCNL) am not on anybody's payroll. I simply "thump" Reality and Truth to counter the lies, myths and embellishments that have been "thumped" upon us 24/7 for centuries and in some cases millenniums by priests, imams, clerics, preachers, prophets, rabbis and evangelicals. It is time to "pink slip" these individuals and the groups they represent!!!!!!

Billy8?? Another alias for Farnaz?? Might just be as noted by the sensitivity to "rabbis" being listed first and the "nuts" slur.

Why is it that the Muslims in Washington post accept all view points except the Koranist view point? I am tired of posting but not able to see my posts being allowed. People here insult the Koran and its messenger but their is still so much fear about the Koranist. People talk about Islam but the Koran is banned.

Sunnis are not good people. They only care about hadith and Sunnah but they despise the Koran. They portray themselves as followers of the Koran but they are not. We the Koranist are followers of the Koran.

ROBERTO3 :
Until now, I wasn't aware that Sufism is prevalent outside the Indian subcontinent..
______________________________

Most of the world's Muslims are either Sufis or practice a form of Islam derived from Sufism, as Sufi missionaries converted half the Muslim world. Many religious leaders dislike Sufism because it teaches that your relationship with God is ultimately between you and God - its sole concession to propriety is to tell you to keep it private.

Personally, I'm glad to see a public resurgence of Sufism, but I would also warn that Sufi history is very complex: the early Sufis were jehadis against Constantinople, the Sudan uprising against British rule in the late 19th century was the work of Sufis, and Kaddaffi's Green Party is based on Sufism.

I sm very skeptical that Sufism will have any positive impact on Islam.

I am very skeptical that Sufism will change the nature of Islam for the better.

Although I do find it hopeful that the youth of Morocco is embracing this more introspective and spiritual version of Islam, the fact remains that to the more conservative and extreme adherents of Sunni and Shia Islam view them as heretics. As such, they are in as much danger of being targets of violence at the hands of conservative hardliners as are Jews, Christians and other non-believers. Perhaps even more so, because of the possibility that they could be declared apostates and subject to the death penalty in some Muslim countries.

For example, the Iranian "government" view of Sufism from the Tehran Times:
http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.asp?code=156374

I'd like to think that this movement could spark a reformation in Islam, not only in Mediterranean Africa, but throughout the Muslim world. However, I'm not hopeful when many in Islam would be happy to die killing these peaceful people for the sake of their particular vision of Allah.

I believe that Sufism 's has contributed very positively in influencing public opinion and appreciation of the Message of Islam , particularly in the 20th Centuary Western Europe . Contrary to the violance and terror unleashed by Jehadists on their own brothers and sisters in Afghanistan , Pakistan and in other countries , they should learn and adapt Sufis methods and message to win the hearts and minds of all the people . It is about time for a new approach and I would like Non Governmental Organizations (NGOs) to provided resources and support for programs in communities and cities in Afghanistan , Pakistan and other countries of the region . The Sufis mesage of love and tolerance will be a positive force and impact against Taleban and terrorism.

CCNL Author Profile Page:

CCNL is not on anybody's payroll. He simply "thumps" Reality and Truth to counter the lies, myths and embellishments that have been "thumped" upon us 24/7 for centuries and in some cases millenniums by rabbis, priests, imams, clerics, preachers, prophets and evangelicals. It is time to "pink slip" these individuals and the groups they represent!!!!!!

Don't believe you. And I do notice that you put "rabbis" first in your list. You seem to work from a script. You seem to copy and paste. Now you're referring to yourself in the third person. Maybe you're just nuts...

CCNL is not on anybody's payroll. He simply "thumps" Reality and Truth to counter the lies, myths and embellishments that have been "thumped" upon us 24/7 for centuries and in some cases millenniums by rabbis, priests, imams, clerics, preachers, prophets and evangelicals. It is time to "pink slip" these individuals and the groups they represent!!!!!!

So who does CCNL work for?
Here's one post:

The koran is still the "root" of Sufism. This book of horror for over 500 million Muslim women was generated by the hallucinations of one long dead Arab who supposedly got his instructions from a "pretty, wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingie" named Gabriel. It all makes one scream out "THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF ISLAM!!!!"

And another:

"Said book was generated by the hallucinations of one long dead Arab who supposedly got his instructions from a "pretty, wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingie" named Gabriel. It all makes one scream out "THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF IT ALL!!!!"

another:

"600 million Muslim women with the exception of a lucky few like the PM of Bangladesh (the female PM of Pakistan was not so lucky) suffer 24/7 under the heels of 400 million Muslim men. This is all done via the guidance of the "worst book ever written" aka the koran. Said book was generated by the hallucinations of one long dead Arab who supposedly got his instructions from a "pretty, wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingie" named Gabriel. It all makes one scream out "THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF IT ALL!!!!"

Really seems like someone is copying and pasting from a script. Interesting to see that people are paid to post on these boards. Who pays CCNL?

CCNL Author Profile Page:

The koran is still the "root" of Sufism. This book of horror for over 500 million Muslim women was generated by the hallucinations of one long dead Arab who supposedly got his instructions from a "pretty, wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingie" named Gabriel. It all makes one scream out "THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF ISLAM!!!!

I am no radical Islam-apologist, but something about this poster, and the fact that every post is identical, makes me think that this is paid work. I saw an article recently about Israel paying people to post pro-Israeli messages in chat rooms and message boards. Could that be what is going on here? That part in quotes, about the "pretty, wingie..." appears in every post by this person. Weird.
Who's paying you?

Until now, I wasn't aware that Sufism is prevalent outside the Indian subcontinent..

Now I feel really hopeful for Islam in Arabic/North African regions..may be you don't get kidnapped or killed for being an infidel after all in some of these regions!

One other thing about Sufism which is not true of many Muslim sects--women are not treated as less than human. On the contrary, early Sufism had a number of female religious figures. Here's hoping Sufism sees a surge in interest outside of Morocco.

The koran is still the "root" of Sufism. This book of horror for over 500 million Muslim women was generated by the hallucinations of one long dead Arab who supposedly got his instructions from a "pretty, wingie, talking, flying, fictional thingie" named Gabriel. It all makes one scream out "THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF ISLAM!!!!