Folks:

The history of EuroCatholic antisemitism, including Polish Catholic antisemitsm, and AmeriCatholic antisemitsm is two thousand years old, and hasn't ended yet. Patrick Sarsfield, with his endless drivel is an excellent case in point.

Folks,
Since more than two days have gone by since my last response to Farnaz's data dump without further reply from Farnaz, and I have responded to all her posts, I am considering this exchange closed and I will not be checking back on this comment chain anymore.

In doing my research, I came across this useful 273 page research paper on the aid given by Polish Catholic Clergy to Jews during the Holocaust that I commend to your attention:

http://www.savingjews.org/docs/clergy_rescue.pdf

In the early part of that paper, the writer reports on the number of deaths the Polish Male Clergy (18000 at the start of WWII) suffered throughout the War at the hands of the Germans: 2800 dead by the Nazis (p. 11). That is a 16% killed rate. Hundreds more died at the hands of the Russians.

As the biographer of the 716th woman in Auschwitz, Rena Kornreich Gelissen, I was moved to write Bishop Williamson a letter and speak for the woman who's voice I became, who can no longer speak for herself. What began as a letter of anger changed, when I realized that Rena herself would have prayed for Bishop Williamson. Rena lost her faith in Auschwitz, watching children going to the gas, she prayed to God to smite just one Nazi down and when that did not happen, she gave up her faith. When her story was published in 1995, she confided in me that she God had finally answered her prayer. "If just one Holocaust denier changes his or her mind after hearing my story, God has answered my prayer." I believe that God has answered her prayer many many times since then and pray that perhaps, Bishop Williamson will be one of those people.
You can hear our letter to Bishop Williamson on YouTube under renaspromise.

Folks,
Farnaz and I have gone back and forth on the role of Polish Gentiles in the Holocaust and there are now probably twelve or more relevant posts. For some perspective, here are a few articles that suggest that the Polish role was not as black as Farnaz portrays it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBegota

http://www.amazon.com/Zegota-Irene-Tomaszewski/dp/1896881157

http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Holocaust-German-Occupation-1939-1944/dp/0781809010/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234814445&sr=1-1

Part Two of Broken Up Response to Farnaz's Link One on Polish Anti-Semitism:

I read both of your links for Polish Anti-Semitism and will address each separately. The first link was:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shtetl/relations/polandhistorical.html

Ringblum's contributions come next. He is quoted: "He condemned the Polish police for playing a "most lamentable role in the extermination of the Jews of Poland," and for being "enthusiastic executors of all the German directives regarding the Jews."

As I have said, though, Ringblum was equally condemnatory of the fervor of the Jewish Police. There is no question that Police all over Europe were enlisted by the Nazis to take subordinate roles in the rounding up of Jews (and others). In no event, though, does Ringblum's condemnation include any description of numbers of Polish Police involved nor the number of their victims, nor of resistance by some members of the Polish Police.

Ringblum also points to blackmailers who used the plight of the jews in hiding to improve their monetary position. I am sure outrages like that went on in Poland and throughout Europe. Such unquantified anecdotal evidence, though, hardly undermines my understanding that the vast bulk of Poles were going about their lives without reference to jews and were simply looking for ways to survive a most murderous dictatorship that regarded them as untermenschen too. While the piece claims that those gangs (the numbers of which are never described) "brought disaster to thousands of Jews who has succeeded in eluding the Nazis," it also notes this about the Polish Christian Underground:

"The plague of the blackmailers was so widespread that the Polish underground felt it necessary to begrudgingly take measures, if not to fully eradicate it, at least to contain it. In practice, only a few informers were actually punished. The few steps taken in this direction bore absolutely no proportion to the magnitude of the crimes committed by the Nazis...."

My response is that the Partisans certainly had the right result in mind, but their inability to correct the Nazis (or their collaborators) should not be surprising to the author. The Polish Gentile Home Army ("AK") arose in the most widespread rebellion against the Nazis anywhere in Europe on Aug. 1, 1944 but they were decimated in a vast slaughter. So, if the author of the piece expected them to do more against the Nazis, he may have been expecting more than would have been practical given the undeniable fact that the Germans were at that moment "uber alles" and were actively persecuting Polish Gentiles as well as Jews.

Part One of Broken Up Response to Farnaz's Link One on Polish Anti-Semitism:

I read both of your links for Polish Anti-Semitism and will address each separately. The first link was:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shtetl/relations/polandhistorical.html

My response to this link had to be broken in two because of its size.

Most of the post concerned the scope of the German Holocaust on the Jews and the Polish Christians too. It in large measure confirms what I have written about the great suffering of the Polish Christians in the Holocaust. I would quibble with the figure it uses for Polish Christian deaths: 2 Million. I have seen the figure as 3 Million in other accounts.

The description of Polish Anti-Semitism before and during WWII appears does not start until more than half way down and just goes on for about ten paragraphs, beginning: "How would the Polish population react to the massive slaughter of the Jews in their midst --in their own backyard? " It ends and a description of Polish Christian Aid to the Jews starts.

The ten paragraphs contain almost no specific data. The only quantitative references in the ten paragraphs are these rather vague two (my comments on each follow them):

"The weight of evidence from eyewitness accounts and documentary material, it must be said in full candor, points to a widespread Anti-Semitism that militated against a serious attempt to render succor to the afflicted Jews.... In many quarters, there was even sort of an eerie satisfaction that the Jewish Question in Poland (an irritating 10 percent of the population) was at long last being solved for the good of the country, coupled with a revulsion among some at the methods used to achieve this end. "
Apathy in the face of death threats certainly shows that the bulk of the people did not take up the cause of the Jews and may have been guilty of schadenfreude but it does not show active Polish anti-Semitism that resulted in acts of outrage against the Jews:
"Antisemitism in Poland had already reached high proportions in the immediate years before the war (although Jews enjoyed unprecedented liberties during the Middle Ages, at a time when their brethren suffered persecution in the rest of Europe). This antisemitism played into the hands of the Nazis, who needed, if not the outright cooperation, then at least the silent acquiescence of the conquered populations if their genocical plans were to succeed."

Again, "silent acquiescence" is far from the active participation in the Holocaust by large numbers of Poles that you suggest occurred.

Farnaz,
I previously sent you my comments on the first link but it is hung up in the censors.
Here are my comments on your second Polish Anti-Semitism link:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=2&res=9F0DE6DF1F39E13ABC4953DFB0668382609EDE

This is a June 1919 NY Times article reprinting the story of a correspondent for an unnamed NY Jewish newspaper on certain Nov. 1918-April 1919 attacks deemed "pogroms" against Jews in Poland, Lithuania and Ukraine by Poles and others. Those attacks apparently occurred in the wake of the End of World War One. You report that the article is an accurate one, but the NY Times is just passing along someone else's account.

I don't doubt that some such attacks occurred and that anti-Semitism was a significant factor in some of them, but even the report notes that Polish legionaries--the militias that coalesced into a Polish Army at the end of WWI after 130 years of the non-existence of the Polish State--justified their attacks on purported cooperation by Jewish groups with Bolshevik elements. It must be remembered that the Poles were in the process of liberating their land from the 130 year long reign of Russia (and Prussia) over much of Poland. Anyone deemed to be an ally to the Russians was going to be deemed an enemy by the Poles.

In addition, the article also notes that the Poles were engaged in boundary disputes with the Ukrainians who likewise were trying to establish an Independent Ukraine. The Jews of Lemberg (aka Lvov, now part of the Ukraine) apparently decided that they wanted to remain neutral in the Polish-Ukrainian Dispute. The Poles would not accept such neutrality and attacked. Anti-Semitism or mere raison d'etat? Or an application of the rule: "the friend of my enemy is my enemy"?

Farnaz,
You write:
"The post we both reference was made prior to the Timeline. This is my third request. Kindly respond to it, and I shall then comment on your remarks on the Timeline."

NOPE. As I have noted before, when you dump the pile of stuff you dumped on me---which reveals little more than that you know how to cut and spaste--I will dig myself out as I see fit. I am not surprised, though, that you don't want to address my unpacking of your Timeline.

Farnaz,
This is just silly:
"PLEASE PROVIDE SOURCES, PERCENTEGAES, ETC., ON THE "MAJOR SEGMENTS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE" THAT HAVE "SHOWN" "ANTI-PALESTINIANISM.""

The major segments begin with Israel which accounts for about 35.7% of Jews Worldwide (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population).

You may try to justify the anti-Palestianian activities of the Jewish state, but it certainly is there, and it has been shown repeatedly over the last 100 years beginning with some of the bombing activities of people like Menachem Begin continuing with the expulsions accompanying the 1948 War and the 1982 massacres at Sabra and Shattila and continuing to this day.

While the Palestinians have certainly given back in kind and started their own provocations, the fact remains that Israel is a confessional state which divides out as many gentiles as possible into captive statelets (essentially "bantustans" namely Gaza and the West Bank) which cannot stand on their own and which had historically been part of a single entity with the land carved out of Palestine known now as Israel.

I can understand why the Israelis do not want to include the Palestinians in their body politic (it likely would prove demographic suicide) but the approach is not dissimilar to what the Spanish Catholics did when they regained the possession of their land after centuries of Muslim dominance: they wanted a Catholic state, just as the Israelis want a Jewish State. The Spanish resolution is not acceptable when looked at through Western 21st Century eyes, of course.

Then there are Jewish American groups in the US whose support for Jewish attacks on the Palestinians cannot be denied. American Jews constitute 38.62% of the World Jewish Population per the same source. American Jews' support for Israel is evidenced by the JVIE's 2001 Analysis of the impact of the American Jewish vote that can be found at http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp446.htm. It notes:

"In short, support for Israel is a unique issue capable of swinging very large sectors of the American Jewish electorate. Given that this electorate is concentrated in swing states that hold the key to national elections, where Jews may number as much as 5 percent of the potential voters, the Israel swing factor may indeed be decisive. The factor works visibly when a candidate's positions toward the Jewish state significantly provoke the American Jewish electorate. It works latently when, as more often occurs, candidates seek to insure themselves against the Israel swing factor by taking sufficiently pro-Israel positions. That is what happened in 2000, for example. Of course, there are other reasons why candidates might take a staunchly pro-Israel stand. They may feel that the U.S. has an interest in a strong Israel as the only democracy and reliable U.S. ally in the volatile Middle East. Nevertheless, the Israel swing factor provides a strong incentive.

PatrickSarsfield: Part I

Re: Your most recent posts and fourth request for a reply to my first

Kindly respond to the post I again paste below, which was made prior to my posting of the timeline. As stated, repeatedly, I shall then address your remarks on the Timeline.
__________________________
PatrickSarsfield:

Re: Your most recent post

The post we both reference was made prior to the Timeline. This is my third request. Kindly respond to it, and I shall then comment on your remarks on the Timeline.

_________________________________
PatrickSarsfield: Part II

I am increasingly at a loss to follow your logic. As you say, you are composing in English, but any language can be voided of logic. This you accomplish admirably in the case of America's lingua franca. I have posted two links on Polish Catholic antisemitism, dealing with a fraction of the kidnappings, rapes, tortures, pogroms, public humiliations, etc., which Polish Catholics visted upon Jews historically. Up to the day of the nazi invasion, indeed while the Germans were massing at Poland's borders, Polish Catholics were practicing antisemitism, directing violence at Polish Jews, sponsoring University Days without Jews, etc. So busy were the Polish Catholics with their nativist antisemitism that they ignored the coming war.

On these links, on historic Polish antisemitism you have nothing to say. Instead you bring up Polish Catholic "collaborators" with the Nazis whom I have not yet even addressed. "Jewish police" existed in the ghettoes. I haven't even come to the ghettoes or to the occupation.

Then you bring up the Israeli Palestinian conflict which is as relevant to the Holocaust as the the World Series is to football.

We are talking about the Shoah, which you simply won't deal with or engage. Elsewhere on this blog I posted on Catholic/Christian--historic events. It took me six posts to get through it, yet I spent the time, since those invested in denying antisemitism tend not to go to links.

I keep waiting for you to comment on those I posted. Instead they refer to the World Series, its connection to football, and the Bronx Zoo.

So, although it will take time, and although I can't do it all at once, I will post various lists of Catholic Jew-killing, Jew-torturing, Jew-baiting, etc.

There doesn't seem anything else I can do, since you won't engage the topic. I'll be on the lookout for any posts that might attempt legitimate dialogue.

In the meantime, I'M POSTING THIS IN CAPS, SO THAT YOU WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT, SINCE I'M ANXIOUS TO HAVE DATA ON THIS, ALTHOUGH IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN ANTISEMITISM.

YOU WRITE:

anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.
_____________________________
PLEASE PROVIDE SOURCES, PERCENTEGAES, ETC., ON THE "MAJOR SEGMENTS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE" THAT HAVE "SHOWN" "ANTI-PALESTINIANISM."
_______________

Sources and percentages, please, i.e., overall Jewish population, per cent that has shown the behavior you indicated, the nature of the behavior. Kindly post nation by nation.

February 15, 2009 5:37 PM
_________________________

February 15, 2009 7:29 PM

February 16, 2009 2:11 AM

February 16, 2009 8:12 AM

Farnaz,

There are 67 entries I found in your Timeline that actually concern non-Catholic Christian groups (or non-Christians in Christian lands). Those irrelevant entries--which are in addition to the 29 irreelevant non-Christian (Muslim, etc) entries previously posted in full at 2/16 1:31 and 1:35 AM--can be found at the following dates:

1487, 1543, 1546, 1547, 1563, 1590, 1612, 1614, 1615, 1648-55, 1711, 1727, 1736, 1742, 1744, 1762, 1768, 1771, 1790, 1790-92, 1819, 1827, 1835, 1844, 1853, 1862, 1878, 1879, 1881, 1881-84, 1882, 1882 (May), 1887, 1891, 1895, 1899, 1903, 1903, 1905, 1909, 1911, 1915, 1917-21, 1919-22, 1920, 1921-25, 1924, 1933-41, 1934, 1935, 1938 (Nov. 9-10), 1938 (July 6-10), 1939, 1939 February, 1939-45, 1946, 1948 January 13, 1952 August 12-13, 1952, 1953, 1963, 1960s-1991, 1968, 1983, since 1987, 1999.

Farnaz, all of this stuff should be culled. You may want to lump all gentiles (and even Jewish atheists like Karl Marx) together and blame the Catholic Church for a whole bunch of anti-Semitic acts in which it played no role, but very few people will pay much attention to such a transparently meritless attack.

Farnaz,
This is simply incorrect:

"I read through your posts, but have yet to find a response to my original reply. If it's there, please simply paste it. If not, please have the courtesy to compose it. (Btw., I suggest you go back through the timeline, this time selecting those PolishCatholic crimes against Polish Jews, since there are far more than the one you select and dispense with, but that can wait.) Your reply to the following earlier post, please,"

WRONG. I picked out and reposted all the Polish entries in the Timeline, many of which concerned Polish welcoming of Jews, not crimes. There were a few crimes but most of those concerned much earlier periods of time. My post at 12:06 AM on Feb. 16 contains all the entries from the Timeline that mention Poland. Of them only the following concern bad things done to Jews before WWII:

1564
Brest-Litovsk: the son of a wealthy Jewish tax collector is accused of killing the family's Christian servant for ritual purposes. He is tortured and executed in line with the law. King Sigismund II of Poland forbids future charges of ritual murder, calling them groundless.
1632
King Ladislaus IV of Poland forbids antisemitic print-outs.
1768
Haidamaks massacre the Jews of Uman, Poland.
1819
A series of anti-Jewish riots in Germany that spread to several neighboring countries: Denmark, Poland, Latvia and Bohemia known as Hep-Hep riots, from the derogatory rallying cry against the Jews in Germany.

The latest of them occurred 120 years before the beginning of WWII, and at a time when there was NO Poland. The 1768 entry regarding the "Haidamaks" concerned the Ukrainian Cossacks who were not even Catholic. One reason the Ukrainian Cossacks waged unremitting war against Poland for a century or more was precisely because they were Orthodox, not Catholic.

So your Timeline had a very few entries showing shameful things done by Polish Catholics to Jews, but a good number of entries showing a welcoming attitude by Poland as well. Once again, I need to say that your case has been presented in a very slovenly way, Farnaz.

PatrickSarsfield:

Re: Your most recent post

The post we both reference was made prior to the Timeline. This is my third request. Kindly respond to it, and I shall then comment on your remarks on the Timeline.
_________________________________
PatrickSarsfield:

I am increasingly at a loss to follow your logic. As you say, you are composing in English, but any language can be voided of logic. This you accomplish admirably in the case of America's lingua franca. I have posted two links on Polish Catholic antisemitism, dealing with a fraction of the kidnappings, rapes, tortures, pogroms, public humiliations, etc., which Polish Catholics visted upon Jews historically. Up to the day of the nazi invasion, indeed while the Germans were massing at Poland's borders, Polish Catholics were practicing antisemitism, directing violence at Polish Jews, sponsoring University Days without Jews, etc. So busy were the Polish Catholics with their nativist antisemitism that they ignored the coming war.

On these links, on historic Polish antisemitism you have nothing to say. Instead you bring up Polish Catholic "collaborators" with the Nazis whom I have not yet even addressed. "Jewish police" existed in the ghettoes. I haven't even come to the ghettoes or to the occupation.

Then you bring up the Israeli Palestinian conflict which is as relevant to the Holocaust as the the World Series is to football.

We are talking about the Shoah, which you simply won't deal with or engage. Elsewhere on this blog I posted on Catholic/Christian--historic events. It took me six posts to get through it, yet I spent the time, since those invested in denying antisemitism tend not to go to links.

I keep waiting for you to comment on those I posted. Instead they refer to the World Series, its connection to football, and the Bronx Zoo.

So, although it will take time, and although I can't do it all at once, I will post various lists of Catholic Jew-killing, Jew-torturing, Jew-baiting, etc.

There doesn't seem anything else I can do, since you won't engage the topic. I'll be on the lookout for any posts that might attempt legitimate dialogue.

In the meantime, I'M POSTING THIS IN CAPS, SO THAT YOU WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT, SINCE I'M ANXIOUS TO HAVE DATA ON THIS, ALTHOUGH IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN ANTISEMITISM.

YOU WRITE:

anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.
_____________________________
PLEASE PROVIDE SOURCES, PERCENTEGAES, ETC., ON THE "MAJOR SEGMENTS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE" THAT HAVE "SHOWN" "ANTI-PALESTINIANISM."
_______________

Sources and percentages, please, i.e., overall Jewish population, per cent that has shown the behavior you indicated, the nature of the behavior. Kindly post nation by nation.

February 15, 2009 5:37 PM
_________________________

February 15, 2009 7:29 PM

February 16, 2009 2:11 AM

Farnaz,
You write:
"After you have responded to my original question (scroll down), I will address the matter of the Timeline. First things first, if you don't mind. Scroll down, please."

SORRY, but when you try to bury me in a pile of mess, I will unpack it as I see fit. I say mess because much of what you send is irrelevant either to Poland or even to Catholicism. I need to cut out the dreck first.

For example, your 30 or so post "Timeline" of supposed Catholic anti-Semitism is replete with entries that concern other groups: 27 or so Muslim entries, 1 regarding the Sassanids of all people, and 67 non-Catholic Christian (or atheists living in Christian or formerly Christian lands) entries. You ignore all of my corrections and tell me to read something else. Okay, I understand: you're essentially saying "don't bother me with the facts.".

As to Poland, you claimed that the Timeline showed POlish anti-Semitism, and it included a VERY few incidents only one of which was in a period relevant to WWII. My post (February 16, 2009 12:00 AM ) specifically addressed Poland in the Timeline and it shows that most of the Poland entries show that Poland welcomed jews at a time when much of Europe didn't. That explains why there were so many Jews in Poland in 1939. There were a bit more than 3 Million Jews in Poland, which was about 1/6 of the total number of Jews in the World.

PatrickSarsfield:

After you have responded to my original question (scroll down), I will address the matter of the Timeline. First things first, if you don't mind. Scroll down, please.

Part I

PatrickSarsfield,

I read through your posts, but have yet to find a response to my original reply. If it's there, please simply paste it. If not, please have the courtesy to compose it. (Btw., I suggest you go back through the timeline, this time selecting those PolishCatholic crimes against Polish Jews, since there are far more than the one you select and dispense with, but that can wait.) Your reply to the following earlier post, please,
____________________________

Part II

PatrickSarsfield:

I am increasingly at a loss to follow your logic. As you say, you are composing in English, but any language can be voided of logic. This you accomplish admirably in the case of America's lingua franca. I have posted two links on Polish Catholic antisemitism, dealing with a fraction of the kidnappings, rapes, tortures, pogroms, public humiliations, etc., which Polish Catholics visted upon Jews historically. Up to the day of the nazi invasion, indeed while the Germans were massing at Poland's borders, Polish Catholics were practicing antisemitism, directing violence at Polish Jews, sponsoring University Days without Jews, etc. So busy were the Polish Catholics with their nativist antisemitism that they ignored the coming war.

On these links, on historic Polish antisemitism you have nothing to say. Instead you bring up Polish Catholic "collaborators" with the Nazis whom I have not yet even addressed. "Jewish police" existed in the ghettoes. I haven't even come to the ghettoes or to the occupation.

Then you bring up the Israeli Palestinian conflict which is as relevant to the Holocaust as the the World Series is to football.

We are talking about the Shoah, which you simply won't deal with or engage. Elsewhere on this blog I posted on Catholic/Christian--historic events. It took me six posts to get through it, yet I spent the time, since those invested in denying antisemitism tend not to go to links.

I keep waiting for you to comment on those I posted. Instead they refer to the World Series, its connection to football, and the Bronx Zoo.

So, although it will take time, and although I can't do it all at once, I will post various lists of Catholic Jew-killing, Jew-torturing, Jew-baiting, etc.

There doesn't seem anything else I can do, since you won't engage the topic. I'll be on the lookout for any posts that might attempt legitimate dialogue.

In the meantime, I'M POSTING THIS IN CAPS, SO THAT YOU WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT, SINCE I'M ANXIOUS TO HAVE DATA ON THIS, ALTHOUGH IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN ANTISEMITISM.

YOU WRITE:

anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.
_____________________________
PLEASE PROVIDE SOURCES, PERCENTEGAES, ETC., ON THE "MAJOR SEGMENTS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE" THAT HAVE "SHOWN" "ANTI-PALESTINIANISM."
_______________

Sources and percentages, please, i.e., overall Jewish population, per cent that has shown the behavior you indicated, the nature of the behavior. Kindly post nation by nation.

February 15, 2009 5:37 PM
_________________________

February 15, 2009 7:29 PM

Farnaz,
I stayed up late to identify the entries in your timeline that had nothing to do with Anti-Semitism by Catholics. There are many of them. The most clearly inappropriate entries are those concerning Muslim or Jewish anti-Semitism. There were 29 or so such entries on your list. I will post tomorrow on the Christian, but non-Catholic entries. Here are the last fifteen or so non-Christan entries. The first fifteen were sent in my first non-Christian entries post:
1619
Shah Abbasi of the Persian Sufi Dynasty increases persecution against the Jews, forcing many to outwardly practice Islam. Many keep practicing Judaism in secret.
1678
forced mass conversions in Yemen.
1790-1792
Destruction of most of the Jewish communities of Morocco.
1840
The Damascus affair: false accusations cause arrests and atrocities, culminating in the seizure of sixty-three Jewish children and attacks on Jewish communities throughout the Middle East.
1844
Karl Marx praises Bruno Bauer's essays containing demands that the Jews abandon Judaism, and publishes his work On the Jewish Question: "What is the worldly cult of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly god? Money... Money is the jealous God of Israel, besides which no other god may exist... The god of the Jews has been secularized and has become the god of this world", "In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Judaism." This probably led to the antisemitic feeling within communism.
1920
The Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 of old Yishuv
1921 May 1-4
Jaffa riots in Palestine.
1929 August 23
The ancient Jewish community of Hebron is destroyed in the Hebron massacre. [22]
1934
2,000 of Afghani Jews expelled from their towns and forced to live in the wilderness.
1941
The Farhud pogrom in Baghdad results in 200 Jews dead, 2,000 wounded.
1948-2001
Antisemitism played a major role in the Jewish exodus from Arab lands. The Jewish population in the Arab Middle East and North Africa has decreased from 900,000 in 1948 to less than 8,000 in 2001.
1948
During the Siege of Jerusalem of the Arab-Israeli War, Arab armies were able to conquer the part of the West Bank and Jerusalem; they expelled all Jews (about 2,000) from the Old City (the Jewish Quarter) and destroyed the ancient synagogues that were in Old City as well.
1968
The ancient Jewish community of Hebron, which had been destroyed in the 1929 Hebron massacre, is revived at Kiryat Arba. The community, in 1979 and afterwards, moves into Hebron proper and rebuilds the demolished Abraham Avinu Synagogue, the site of which had been used by Jordan as a cattle-pen.
1994
Second Hebron massacre. Baruch Goldstein, a Jew, kills several Muslim worshippers; this leads to riots that kill both Muslims and Jews.

Farnaz,
I stayed up late to identify the entries in your timeline that had nothing to do with Anti-Semitism by Catholics. There are many f them. The most clearly inappropriate entries are those concerning Muslim or Jewish anti-Semitism. There were 29 or so such entries on your list. I will post tomorrow on the Christian, but non-Catholic entries. Here are the first fifteen non-Christan entries. The last fifteen or so will follow in a second post:
451
Sassanid ruler Yazdegerd II of Persia's decree abolishes the Sabbath and orders executions of Jewish leaders, including the Exilarch Mar Nuna.
717
Possible date for the Pact of Umar, a document that specified restrictions on Jews and Christians (dhimmi) living under Muslim rule. However, academic historians believe that this document was actually compiled at a much later date.
807
Abbassid Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders all Jews in the Caliphate to wear a yellow belt, with Christians to wear a blue one.
1008-1013
Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ("the Mad") issues severe restrictions against Jews in the Fatimid Empire. All Jews are forced to wear a heavy wooden "golden calf" around their necks. Christians had to wear a large wooden cross and members of both groups had to wear black hats.
1016
The Jewish community of Kairouan, Tunisia is forced to chose between conversion and expulsion.
1032
Abul Kamal Tumin conquers Fez, Morocco and decimates the Jewish community, killing 6,000 Jews.
1066 December 30
Granada massacre: Muslim mob stormed the royal palace in Granada, crucified Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred most of the Jewish population of the city. "More than 1,500 Jewish families, numbering 4,000 persons, fell in one day."[9]
1090
The Jewish community of Granada, which had recovered after the attacks of 1066, attacked again at the hands of the Almoravides led by Ibn Iashufin, bringing the golden age of Jewish culture in Spain to end.
1107
Moroccan Almoravid ruler Yusuf ibn Tashfin ordered all Moroccan Jews to convert or leave.
1148-1212
The rule of the Almohads in al-Andalus. Only Jews who had converted to Christianity or Islam were allowed to live in Granada. One of the refugees was Maimonides who settled in Fez and later in Fustat near Cairo.
1165
Forced mass conversions in Yemen
1198 August: Saladdin's nephew al-Malik, caliph of Yemen, summons all the Jews and forcibly converts them.
1232
Forced mass conversions in Marrakesh.
1333
forced mass conversions in Baghdad
1438
Establishment of mellahs (ghettos) in Morocco.

Part Two of Patricksarsfield Reply to Farnaz on Thirty Post or So Timeline
Farnaz,
As noted in my last post, the relatively few entries on Poland in your thirty post timeline explain why there were so many Jews in Poland at the start of WWII! The Polish Nation welcomed Jews into the country as early as 1348 and as late as 1938. While there was some anti-Semitism, there was also good common sense on the part of Polish rulers who normally demanded evidence, not just accusations before the Government would accept any violence:
"1348
European Jews are blamed for the Black Death. Charge laid to the Jews that they poisoned the wells. Massacres spread throughout Spain, France, Germany and Austria. More than 200 Jewish communities destroyed by violence. Many communities have been expelled and settle down in Poland.
1447
Casimir IV renews all the rights of Jews of Poland and makes his charter one of the most liberal in Europe. He revokes it in 1454 at the insistence of Bishop Zbigniew.
1564
Brest-Litovsk: the son of a wealthy Jewish tax collector is accused of killing the family's Christian servant for ritual purposes. He is tortured and executed in line with the law. King Sigismund II of Poland forbids future charges of ritual murder, calling them groundless.
1632
King Ladislaus IV of Poland forbids antisemitic print-outs.
1768
Haidamaks massacre the Jews of Uman, Poland.
1819
A series of anti-Jewish riots in Germany that spread to several neighboring countries: Denmark, Poland, Latvia and Bohemia known as Hep-Hep riots, from the derogatory rallying cry against the Jews in Germany.
1938 July 6-15
Evian Conference: 31 countries refuse to accept Jews trying to escape Nazi Germany (with exception of Dominican Republic). Most find temporary refuge in Poland. See also Bermuda Conference.
1968
Polish 1968 political crisis. The state-organized antisemitic campaign in the People's Republic of Poland under guise of "anti-Zionism" drives out most of remaining Jewish population.
2005 September
Throughout the Polish election Radio Maryja continued to promote antisemitic views, including denial of the facts of the Jedwabne pogrom in 1941. Their support of right-wing conservative Law and Justice party is considered a major factor in their electoral victory.[32]
2005 October"

The Jedwabne pogrom is about the only material allegation in the Timeline on Polish Anti-Semitism in the period around WWII. Although shameful for the 40-800 Gentiles who participated in the pogrom, it is hardly a ground to condemn the Polish Nation for its overall conduct during WWII. I have previously pasted about the Polish Nation's great contributions to the Allied effort and the great sufferings of Poland's gentiles at the hands of the Holocaust.

Part One of Patricksarsfield Reply to Farnaz on Thirty Post or So Timeline
Farnaz,

I went through your 30 or so post data dump covering 2000 years of charges of anti-Semitism looking for anything of relevance to Poland (using the search terms Poland, Polish, Poles and Warsaw). The overwhelming bulk of what you presented did not concern Poland.

In fact, much of what you presented did not even concern Catholic Anti-Semitism. Rather, you have lumped in stuff involving Martin Luther, Ahmedinejad and anonymous fire bombings in modern day America. That is far less relevant to the issue of Catholic involvement in Anti-Semitism, which of course did occur and which is shameful In the next post I will reprint all entries which concerned Poland. Review of those entries demonstrates that your case for some overwhelming guilt of the Polish Nation has just not been made out.

About the only entry that dealt with Polish anti-Semitism in any period related to WWII (or the early 20th Century) was the entry referencing the Jedwabne Pogrom in 1941. Clearly it shows some involvement by Polish gentiles in a pogrom to their shame. Whether that was due to historical Christian anti-Semitism or riling up done by either the Nazis or the NKVD (the Russian predecessor to the KGB) is not clear. What is clear is that that pogrom involved a relative handful of Polish Gentiles (estimated from a low of 40 to a high of maybe 800 and involving Jewish casualties from a low of 200 to a high of 1600). Farnaz may want to condemn a nation of almost 40 Million for the actions of 40 to 800 individuals, but most people won't take such a condemnation seriously. Here is a useful link to the Wiki article on the Jedwabne pogrom (which seems to give a balanced account of that controversy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom

PATRICK SARSFIELD: CONTINUED

Below you will find thirty or so posts comprising a timeline of antisemitism. The last post (Feb. 15, 5:49) is a repeat, a misstep, actually, so don't waste time on it.

Since this took thirty posts, an exhausting process, btw., to make this reply more comprehensible for you, I periodically pasted this:
Farnaz2 Author Profile Page:

PatrickSarsfield:

Here [i.e., on the date posted below]begins my reply to your last post. Please read this comment first to make sense of the timeline and other documents I shall publish. As I explain on the other post, I'll be on the lookout for your reply to the matter I place in caps.

To make navigation easier for you, I will post this comment at various intervals. The timeline is scant and will be accompanied by others. First things first however, and it will take me awhile to post this one in its entirety, since the censor won't permit it.

Start here, please:

February 15, 2009 5:37 PM
_________________________________

PATRICK SARSFIELD, CONTINUED_
Since I've reached the end of this timeline, I paste here my 5:37 comments.

Farnaz2 Author Profile Page:

PatrickSarsfield:

I am increasingly at a loss to follow your logic. As you say, you are composing in English, but any language can be voided of logic. This you accomplish admirably in the case of America's lingua franca. I have posted two links on Polish Catholic antisemitism, dealing with a fraction of the kidnappings, rapes, tortures, pogroms, public humiliations, etc., which Polish Catholics visted upon Jews historically. Up to the day of the nazi invasion, indeed while the Germans were massing at Poland's borders, Polish Catholics were practicing antisemitism, directing violence at Polish Jews, sponsoring University Days without Jews, etc. So busy were the Polish Catholics with their nativist antisemitism that they ignored the coming war.

On these links, on historic Polish antisemitism you have nothing to say. Instead you bring up Polish Catholic "collaborators" with the Nazis whom I have not yet even addressed. "Jewish police" existed in the ghettoes. I haven't even come to the ghettoes or to the occupation.

Then you bring up the Israeli Palestinian conflict which is as relevant to the Holocaust as the the World Series is to football.

We are talking about the Shoah, which you simply won't deal with or engage. Elsewhere on this blog I posted on Catholic/Christian--historic events. It took me six posts to get through it, yet I spent the time, since those invested in denying antisemitism tend not to go to links.

I keep waiting for you to comment on those I posted. Instead they refer to the World Series, its connection to football, and the Bronx Zoo.

So, although it will take time, and although I can't do it all at once, I will post various lists of Catholic Jew-killing, Jew-torturing, Jew-baiting, etc.

There doesn't seem anything else I can do, since you won't engage the topic. I'll be on the lookout for any posts that might attempt legitimate dialogue.

In the meantime, I'M POSTING THIS IN CAPS, SO THAT YOU WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT, SINCE I'M ANXIOUS TO HAVE DATA ON THIS, ALTHOUGH IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN ANTISEMITISM.

YOU WRITE:

anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.
_____________________________
PLEASE PROVIDE SOURCES, PERCENTEGAES, ETC., ON THE "MAJOR SEGMENTS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE" THAT HAVE "SHOWN" "ANTI-PALESTINIANISM."
_______________

Sources and percentages, please, i.e., overall Jewish population, per cent that has shown the behavior you indicated, the nature of the behavior. Kindly post nation by nation.

February 15, 2009 5:37 PM
_________________________

PatrickSarsfield, continued,

I have spent a great deal of time posting the timeline that follows for you. I'd be interested in your thoughts, along with a reply to what I post above.

I'm hopeful that other bloggers unfamiliar with the record will, at least, take a look at it. It is, as I say, sketchy. I'll be filling in the blanks, providing details, etc.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: BEGINNING OF TIMELINE OF ANTISEMTISM--DESERVES A POST OF ITS OWN

167
Earliest known accusation of Jewish deicide ( the notion that Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus) made in a sermon On the Passover attributed to Melito of Sardis.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

Fourth century
306
The Synod of Elvira bans intermarriage between Christians and Jews. Other social intercourses, such as eating together, are also forbidden.
315-337
Constantine I enacts various laws regarding the Jews: Jews are not allowed to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves. Conversion of Christians to Judaism is outlawed. Congregations for religious services are restricted, but Jews are also allowed to enter the restituted Jerusalem on the anniversary of the Temple's destruction.
325
First Ecumenical Council of Nicaea. The Christian Church separates the calculation of the date of Easter from the Jewish Passover: "It was ... declared improper to follow the custom of the Jews in the celebration of this holy festival, because, their hands having been stained with crime, the minds of these wretched men are necessarily blinded.... Let us, then, have nothing in common with the Jews, who are our adversaries. ... avoiding all contact with that evil way. ... who, after having compassed the death of the Lord, being out of their minds, are guided not by sound reason, but by an unrestrained passion, wherever their innate madness carries them. ... a people so utterly depraved. ... Therefore, this irregularity must be corrected, in order that we may no more have any thing in common with those parricides and the murderers of our Lord. ... no single point in common with the perjury of the Jews."[5][6]
361-363
Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate, allows the Jews to return to "holy Jerusalem which you have for many years longed to see rebuilt" and to rebuild the Temple.
386
John Chrysostom of Antioch writes eight homilies Adversus Judaeos (lit: Against the Judaizers). See also: Christianity and antisemitism.
388
A Christian mob incited by the local bishop plunders and burns down a synagogue in Callinicum. Theodosius I orders punishment for those responsible, and rebuilding the synagogue at the Christian expense. Ambrose of Milan insists in his letter that the whole case be dropped. He interrupts the liturgy in the emperor's presence with an ultimatum that he would not continue until the case was dropped. Theodosius complies.
399
The Western Roman Emperor Honorius calls Judaism superstitio indigna and confiscates gold and silver collected by the synagogues for Jerusalem.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

Fifth century
415
Jews are accused of ritual murder during Purim.[7] Christians in Antioch, and Magona confiscate or burn synagogues. Bishop Cyril of Alexandria forces his way into the synagogue, expels the Jews and gives their property to the mob. Prefect Orestes is stoned almost to death for protesting.
418
The first record of Jews being forced to convert or face expulsion. Severus, the Bishop of Minorca, claimed to have forced 540 Jews to accept Christianity upon conquering the island.
419
The monk Barsauma (subsequently the Bishop of Nisibis) gathers a group of followers and for the next three years destroys synagogues throughout the province of Palestine.
429
The East Roman Emperor Theodosius II orders all funds raised by Jews to support schools be turned over to his treasury.
439 Jan 31
The Codex Theodosianus, the first imperial compilation of laws. Jews are prohibited from holding important positions involving money, including judicial and executive offices. The ban against building new synagogues is reinstated. The anti-Jewish statutes apply to the Samaritans. The Code is also accepted by Western Roman Emperor, Valentinian III.
451
Sassanid ruler Yazdegerd II of Persia's decree abolishes the Sabbath and orders executions of Jewish leaders, including the Exilarch Mar Nuna.
465
Council of Vannes, Gaul prohibited the Christian clergy from participating in Jewish feasts.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

Sixth century
519
Ravenna, Italy. After the local synagogues were burned down by the local mob, the Ostrogothic king Theodoric the Great orders the town to rebuild them at its own expense.
529-559
Byzantine Emperor Justinian the Great publishes Corpus Juris Civilis. New laws restrict citizenship to Christians. These regulations determined the status of Jews throughout the Empire for hundreds of years: Jewish civil rights restricted: "they shall enjoy no honors". The principle of Servitus Judaeorum (Servitude of the Jews) is established: the Jews cannot testify against Christians. The emperor becomes an arbiter in internal Jewish matters. The use of the Hebrew language in worship is forbidden. Shema Yisrael ("Hear, O Israel, the Lord is one"), sometimes considered the most important prayer in Judaism, is banned as a denial of the Trinity. Some Jewish communities are converted by force, their synagogues turned into churches.
535
The First Council of Clermont; Gaul prohibits Jews from holding public office.
538
The Third Council of Orléans, Gaul forbids Jews to employ Christian servants or possess Christian slaves. Jews are prohibited from appearing in the streets during Easter: "their appearance is an insult to Christianity". A Merovingian king Childebert approves the measure.
576
Clermont, Gaul. Bishop Avitus offers Jews a choice: accept Christianity or leave Clermont. Most emigrate to Marseille.
589
The Council of Narbonne, Septimania, forbids Jews from chanting psalms while burying their dead. Anyone violating this law is fined 6 ounces of gold. The third Council of Toledo, held under Visigothic King Reccared, bans Jews from slave ownership and holding positions of authority, and reiterates the mutual ban on intermarriage.[8] Reccared also rules children out of such marriages to be raised as Christians.
590
Pope Gregory I defends the Jews against forced conversion.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

Seventh century
610-620
Visigothic Hispania After many of his anti-Jewish edicts were ignored, king Sisebur prohibits Judaism. Those not baptized fled. This was the first incidence where a prohibition of Judaism affected an entire country.
614
Fifth Council of Paris decrees that all Jews holding military or civil positions must accept baptism, together with their families.
615
Italy. The earliest referral to the Juramentum Judaeorum (the Jewish Oath): the concept that no heretic could be believed in court against a Christian. The oath became standardized throughout Europe in 1555.
629 Mar. 21
Byzantine Emperor Heraclius with his army marches into Jerusalem. Jewish inhabitants support him after his promise of amnesty. Upon his entry into Jerusalem the local priests convince him that killing Jews is a good deed. Hundreds of Jews are massacred, thousands flee to Egypt.
Frankish King Dagobert I, encouraged by Byzantine Emperor Heraclius, expels all Jews from the kingdom.
632
The first case of officially sanctioned forced baptism. Emperor Heraclius violates the Codex Theodosianus, which protected them from forced conversions.
681
The Twelfth Council of Toledo, Spain orders burning of the Talmud and other "heretic" books.
682
Visigothic king Erwig begins his reign by enacting 28 anti-Jewish laws. He presses for the "utter extirpation of the pest of the Jews" and decrees that all converts must be registered by a parish priest, who must issue travel permits. All holidays, Christian and Jewish, must be spent in the presence of a priest to ensure piety and to prevent the backsliding.
692
Quinisext Council in Constantinople forbids Christians on pain of excommunication to bathe in public baths with Jews, employ a Jewish doctor or socialize with Jews.
694
17th Council of Toledo. King Ergica believes rumors that the Jews had conspired to ally themselves with the Muslim invaders and forces Jews to give all land, slaves and buildings bought from Christians, to his treasury. He declares that all Jewish children over the age of seven should be taken from their homes and raised as Christians.
Eighth century
717
Possible date for the Pact of Umar, a document that specified restrictions on Jews and Christians (dhimmi) living under Muslim rule. However, academic historians believe that this document was actually compiled at a much later date.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

722
Byzantine emperor Leo III forcibly converts all Jews and Montanists in the empire into mainstream Byzantine Christianity.
[edit] Ninth century
807
Abbassid Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders all Jews in the Caliphate to wear a yellow belt, with Christians to wear a blue one.
820
Agobard, Archbishop of Lyon, declares in his essays that Jews are accursed and demands a complete segregation of Christians and Jews. In 826 he issues a series of pamphlets to convince Emperor Louis the Pious to attack "Jewish insolence", but fails to convince the Emperor.
898-929
French king Charles the Simple confiscates Jewish-owned property in Narbonne and donates it to the Church.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

Eleventh century
1008-1013
Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah ("the Mad") issues severe restrictions against Jews in the Fatimid Empire. All Jews are forced to wear a heavy wooden "golden calf" around their necks. Christians had to wear a large wooden cross and members of both groups had to wear black hats.
1012
One of the first known persecutions of Jews in Germany: Henry II, Holy Roman Emperor expels Jews from Mainz.
1016
The Jewish community of Kairouan, Tunisia is forced to chose between conversion and expulsion.
1026
Probable date of the chronicle of Raoul Glaber. The French chronicler blamed the Jews for the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which was destroyed in 1009 by (Muslim) Caliph Al-Hakim. As a result, Jews were expelled from Limoges and other French towns.
1032
Abul Kamal Tumin conquers Fez, Morocco and decimates the Jewish community, killing 6,000 Jews.
1050
Council of Narbonne, France forbids Christians to live in Jewish homes.
1066 December 30
Granada massacre: Muslim mob stormed the royal palace in Granada, crucified Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred most of the Jewish population of the city. "More than 1,500 Jewish families, numbering 4,000 persons, fell in one day."[9]
1078
Council of Gerona decrees Jews to pay taxes for support of the Catholic Church to the same extent as Christians.

Jews (identifiable by Judenhut) are being massacred by Crusaders.1250 French Bible illustration
1090
The Jewish community of Granada, which had recovered after the attacks of 1066, attacked again at the hands of the Almoravides led by Ibn Iashufin, bringing the golden age of Jewish culture in Spain to end.
1096
The First Crusade. Three hosts of crusaders pass through several Central European cities. The third, unofficial host, led by Count Emicho, decides to attack the Jewish communities, most notably in the Rhineland, under the slogan: "Why fight Christ's enemies abroad when they are living among us?" Eimicho's host attacks the synagogue at Speyer and kills all the defenders. Another 1,200 Jews commit suicide in Mainz to escape his attempt to forcibly convert them; see German Crusade, 1096. Attempts by the local bishops remained fruitless. All in all, 5,000 Jews were murdered. St. Bernard intervened to minimize the worst of the persecution, preaching vigorously against the killing.[10]
[edit] Twelfth century
1107
Moroccan Almoravid ruler Yusuf ibn Tashfin ordered all Moroccan Jews to convert or leave.
1143
150 Jews were killed in Ham, France.
1144 March 20 (Passover)
The case of William of Norwich, a contrived accusation of murder by Jews in Norwich, England.
1148-1212
The rule of the Almohads in al-Andalus. Only Jews who had converted to Christianity or Islam were allowed to live in Granada. One of the refugees was Maimonides who settled in Fez and later in Fustat near Cairo.
1165
Forced mass conversions in Yemen

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

1171
In Blois, France 31 Jews were burned at the stake for blood libel.
1179
The Third Lateran Council, Canon 26: Jews are forbidden to be plaintiffs or witnesses against Christians in the Courts. Jews are forbidden to withhold inheritance from descendants who had accepted Christianity.
1180
Philip Augustus of France after four months in power, imprisons all the Jews in his lands and demands a ransom for their release.
1181
Philip Augustus annuls all loans made by Jews to Christians and takes a percentage for himself. A year later, he confiscates all Jewish property and expels the Jews from Paris.
1189
Holy Roman Emperor Frederick I Barbarossa orders priests not to preach against Jews.
1189
A Jewish deputation attending coronation of Richard the Lionheart was attacked by the crowd. Pogroms in London followed and spread around England.
1190 February 6
All the Jews of Norwich, England found in their houses were slaughtered, except a few who found refuge in the castle.
1190 March 16
500 Jews of York were massacred after a six day siege by departing Crusaders, backed by a number of people indebted to Jewish money-lenders.[11]
1190
Saladdin takes over Jerusalem from Crusaders and lifts the ban for Jews to live there.
1198
Philip Augustus readmits Jews to Paris, only after another ransom was paid and a taxation scheme was set up to procure funds for himself. August: Saladdin's nephew al-Malik, caliph of Yemen, summons all the Jews and forcibly converts them.

PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM

Thirteenth century
Judensau at the Cathedral of St. Peter in Regensburg
13th century
Germany. Appearance of Judensau: obscene and dehumanizing imagery of Jews, ranging from etchings to Cathedral ceilings. Its popularity lasted for over 600 years.
1209
Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse, humiliated and forced to swear that he would implement social restrictions against Jews.
1215
The Fourth Lateran Council headed by Pope Innocent III declares: "Jews and Saracens of both sexes in every Christian province and at all times shall be marked off in the eyes of the public from other peoples through the character of their dress." (Canon 68). See Judenhut. The Fourth Lateran Council also noted that the Jews' own law required the wearing of identifying symbols. Pope Innocent III also reiterated papal injunctions against forcible conversions, and added: "No Christian shall do the Jews any personal injury...or deprive them of their possessions...or disturb them during the celebration of their festivals...or extort money from them by threatening to exhume their dead."[12]
1222
Council of Oxford: Archbishop of Canterbury Stephen Langton forbids Jews from building new synagogues, owning slaves or mixing with Christians.
1223
: Louis VII of France prohibits his officials from recording debts owed to Jews, reversing his father’s policy of seeking such debts.

PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

1229
Raymond VII, Count of Toulouse, heir of Raymond VI, also forced to swear that he would implement social restrictions against Jews.
1232
Forced mass conversions in Marrakesh.
1235
The Jews of Fulda, Germany were accused of ritual murder. To investigate the blood libel, Emperor Frederick II held a special conference of Jewish converts to Christianity at which the converts were questioned about Jewish ritual practice. Letters inviting prominent individuals to the conference still survive. At the conference, the converts stated unequivocally that Jews do not harm Christian children or require blood for any rituals. In 1236 the Emperor published these findings and in 1247 Pope Innocent IV, the Emperor's enemy, also denounced accusations of the ritual murder of Christian children by Jews. In 1272, the papal repudiation of the blood libel was repeated by Pope Gregory X, who also ruled that thereafter any such testimony of a Christian against a Jew could not be accepted unless it is confirmed by another Jew. Unfortunately, these proclamations from the highest sources were not effective in altering the beliefs of the Christian majority and the libels continued.[13]
1236
Crusaders attack Jewish communities of Anjou and Poitou and attempt to baptize all the Jews. Those who resisted (est. 3,000) were slaughtered.
1240
Duke Jean le Roux expels Jews from Brittany.
1240
Disputation of Paris. Pope Gregory IX puts Talmud on trial on the charges that it contains blasphemy against Jesus and Mary and attacks on the Church.
1241
In England, first of a series of royal levies against Jewish finances, which forced the Jews to sell their debts to non-Jews at cut prices.[14]
1242
24 cart-loads of hand-written Talmudic manuscripts burned in the streets of Paris.
1242
James I of Aragon orders Jews to listen to conversion sermons and to attend churches. Friars are given power to enter synagogues uninvited.
1244
Pope Innocent IV orders Louis IX of France to burn all Talmud copies.
1250
Zaragoza: death of a choirboy Saint Dominguito del Val prompts ritual murder accusation. His sainthood was revoked in the 20th century but reportedly a chapel dedicated to him still exists in the Cathedral of Zaragoza.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED
1253
Henry III of England introduces harsh anti-Jewish laws.[15]
1254
Louis IX expels the Jews from France, their property and synagogues confiscated. Most move to Germany and further east, however, after a couple of years, some were readmitted back.
1255
Henry III of England sells his rights to the Jews (regarded as royal "chattels") to his brother Richard for 5,000 marks.
c. 1260
Thomas Aquinas publishes Summa Contra Gentiles, a summary of Christian faith to be presented to those who reject it. The Jews who refuse to convert are regarded as "deliberately defiant" rather than "invincibly ignorant".
1263
Disputation of Barcelona.
1264
Pope Clement IV assigns Talmud censorship committee.
1264
Simon de Montfort inspires massacre of Jews in London.[16]
1267
In a special session, the Vienna city council forces Jews to wear Pileum cornutum (a cone-shaped headdress, prevalent in many medieval illustrations of Jews). This distinctive dress is an addition to Yellow badge Jews were already forced to wear. Christians are not permitted to attend Jewish ceremonies.
1267
Synod of Breslau orders Jews to live in a segregated quarter.
1275
King Edward I of England passes the Statute of the Jewry forcing Jews over the age of seven to wear an identifying yellow badge, and making usury illegal, in order to seize their assets. Scores of English Jews are arrested, 300 hanged and their property goes to the Crown. In 1280 he orders Jews to be present as Dominicans preach conversion. In 1287 he arrests heads of Jewish families and demands their communities pay ransom of 12,000 pounds.

PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

1278
The Edict of Pope Nicholas III requires compulsory attendance of Jews at conversion sermons.
1279
Synod of Ofen: Christians are forbidden to sell or rent real estate to or from Jews.
1282
John Pectin, Archbishop of Canterbury, orders all London synagogues to close and prohibits Jewish physicians from practicing on Christians.
1283
Philip III of France causes mass migration of Jews by forbidding them to live in the small rural localities.
1285
Blood libel in Munich, Germany results in the death of 68 Jews. 180 more Jews are burned alive at the synagogue.
1287
A mob in Oberwesel, Germany kills 40 Jewish men, women and children after a ritual murder accusation.
1289
Jews are expelled from Gascony and Anjou.
1290 July 18
Edict of Expulsion: Edward I expels all Jews from England, allowing them to take only what they could carry, all the other property became the Crown's. Official reason: continued practice of usury.
1291
Philip the Fair publishes an ordinance prohibiting the Jews to settle in France.
1298
During the civil war between Adolph of Nassau and Albrecht of Austria, German knight Rindfleisch claims to have received a mission from heaven to exterminate "the accursed race of the Jews". Under his leadership, the mob goes from town to town destroying Jewish communities and massacring about 100,000 Jews, often by mass burning at stake. Among 146 localities in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria are Röttingen (April 20), Würzburg (July 24), Nuremberg (August 1). [17]
Fourteenth century
1305
Philip IV of France seizes all Jewish property (except the clothes they wear) and expels them from France (approx. 100,000). His successor Louis X of France allows French Jews to return in 1315.
1320
Shepherds' Crusade attacks the Jews of 120 localities in southwest France.
1321
King Henry II of Castile forces Jews to wear Yellow badge.
1321
Jews in central France falsely charged of their supposed collusion with lepers to poison wells. After massacre of est. 5,000 Jews, king Philip V of France admits they were innocent.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

1322
King Charles IV expels Jews from France.
1333
forced mass conversions in Baghdad
1336
Persecutions against Jews in Franconia and Alsace led by lawless German bands, the Armleder.
1348
European Jews are blamed for the Black Death. Charge laid to the Jews that they poisoned the wells. Massacres spread throughout Spain, France, Germany and Austria. More than 200 Jewish communities destroyed by violence. Many communities have been expelled and settle down in Poland.
1348
Basel: 600 Jews burned at the stake, 140 children forcibly baptized, the remaining city's Jews expelled. The city synagogue is turned into a church and the Jewish cemetery is destroyed.
1349
burning of Jews (from a European chronicle written on the Black Death between 1349 and 1352)
1359
Charles V of France allows Jews to return for a period of 20 years in order to pay ransom for his father John II of France, imprisoned in England. The period is later extended beyond the 20 years.
1386
Wenceslaus, Holy Roman Emperor, expels the Jews from the Swabian League and Strasbourg and confiscates their property.
1389
March 18, a Jewish boy is accused of plotting against a priest. The mob slaughters approx. 3,000 of Prague's Jews, destroys the city's synagogue and Jewish cemetery. Wenceslaus insists that the responsibility lay with the Jews for going outside during Holy Week.
1391
Violence incited by the Archdeacon of Ecija, Ferrand Martinez, results in over 10,000 murdered Jews. The Jewish quarter in Barcelona is destroyed. The campaign quickly spreads throughout Spain (except for Granada) and destroys Jewish communities in Valencia and Palma De Majorca.
1394
November 3, Charles VI of France expels all Jews from France.
1399
Blood libel in Posen.
Fifteenth century
1411
Oppressive legislation against Jews in Spain as an outcome of the preaching of the Dominican friar Vicente Ferrer.
1413
Disputation of Tortosa, Spain, staged by the Avignon Pope Benedict XIII, is followed by forced mass conversions.
1420
All Jews are expelled from Lyon.
1421
Persecutions of Jews in Vienna, known as Wiener Gesera (Vienna Edict), confiscation of their possessions, and forced conversion of Jewish children. 270 Jews burned at stake. Expulsion of Jews from Austria.
1422
Pope Martin V issues a Bull reminding Christians that Christianity was derived from Judaism and warns the friars not to incite against the Jews. The Bull was withdrawn the following year on allegations that the Jews of Rome attained it by fraud.
1434

PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

1435
Massacre and forced conversion of Majorcan Jews.
1438
Establishment of mellahs (ghettos) in Morocco.
1447
Casimir IV renews all the rights of Jews of Poland and makes his charter one of the most liberal in Europe. He revokes it in 1454 at the insistence of Bishop Zbigniew.
1449
The Statute of Toledo introduces the rule of purity of blood discriminating Conversos. Pope Nicholas V condemns it.
1463
Pope Nicholas V authorizes the establishment of the Inquisition to investigate heresy among the Marranos. See also Crypto-Judaism.
1473-1474
Spain. Massacres of Marranos of Valladolid, Cordoba, Segovia, Ciudad Real.


Simon of Trent blood libel. Illustration in Hartmann Schedel's Weltchronik, 1493
1475
A student of the preacher Giovanni da Capistrano, Franciscan Bernardino de Fletre, accuses the Jews in murdering an infant, Simon. The entire community is arrested, 15 leaders are burned at the stake, the rest are expelled. In 1588, Pope Sixtus V confirmed Simon's cultus. Saint Simon was considered a martyr and patron of kidnap and torture victims for almost 500 years. In 1965, Pope Paul VI declared the episode a fraud, and decanonized Simon's sainthood.
1481
The Spanish Inquisition is instituted.
1487-1504
Bishop Gennady exposes the heresy of Zhidovstvuyushchiye (Judaizers) in Eastern Orthodoxy of Muscovy.
1490
Tomás de Torquemada burns 6,000 volumes of Jewish mansucripts in Salamanca.
1491
The blood libel in La Guardia, Spain, where the alleged victim Holy Child of La Guardia became revered as a saint.
1492 Mar. 31
Ferdinand II and Isabella issue General Edict on the Expulsion of the Jews from Spain: approx. 200,000. Some return to the Land of Israel. As many localities and entire countries expel their Jewish citizens (after robbing them), and others deny them entrance, the legend of the Wandering Jew, a condemned harbinger of calamity, gains popularity.
1492 Oct. 24
Jews of Mecklenburg, Germany are accused of stabbing a consecrated wafer. 27 Jews are burned, including two women. The spot is still called the Judenberg. All the Jews are expelled from the Duchy.
1493 Jan. 12
Expulsion from Sicily: approx. 37,000.

PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

1496
Forced conversion and expulsion of Jews from Portugal. This included many who fled Spain four years earlier.
1498
Prince Alexander of Lithuania forces most of the Jews to forfeit their property or convert. The main motivation is to cancel the debts the nobles owe to the Jews. Within a short time the trade grounds to a halt and the Prince invites the Jews back in.
[edit] Sixteenth century


Jews from Worms, Germany wear the mandatory yellow badge. A moneybag and garlic in the hands are an antisemitic stereotype (sixteenth-century drawing).
1505
Ten České Budějovice Jews are tortured and executed after being accused of killing a Christian girl; later, on his deathbed, a shepherd confesses to fabricating the accusation.
1506 April 19
A marrano expresses his doubts about miracle visions at St. Dominics Church in Lisbon, Portugal. The crowd, led by Dominican monks, kills him, then ransacks Jewish houses and slaughters any Jew they could find. The countrymen hear about the massacre and join in. Over 2,000 marranos killed in three days.
1509 August 19
A converted Jew Johannes Pfefferkorn receives authority of Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor to destroy the Talmud and other Jewish religious books, except the Hebrew Bible, in Frankfurt.
1510 July 19
Forty Jews are executed in Brandenburg, Germany for allegedly desecrating the host; remainder expelled. November 23. Less-wealthy Jews expelled from Naples; remainder heavily taxed. 38 Jews burned at the stake in Berlin.
1511 June 6
Eight Roman Catholic converts from Judaism burned at the stake for allegedly reverting.
1516
The first ghetto is established, on one of the islands in Venice.
1519
Martin Luther leads Protestant Reformation and challenges the doctrine of Servitus Judaeorum "... to deal kindly with the Jews and to instruct them to come over to us". February 21. All Jews expelled from Ratisbon/Regensburg.
1520
Pope Leo X allows the Jews to print the Talmud in Venice
1527 June 16
Jews are ordered to leave Florence, but the edict is soon rescinded.
1528
Three judaizers are burned at the stake in Mexico City's first auto da fe.
1535
After Spanish troops capture Tunis all the local Jews are sold into slavery.

Farnaz2 Author Profile Page:

PatrickSarsfield:

Here [i.e., on the date posted below]begins my reply to your last post. Please read this comment first to make sense of the timeline and other documents I shall publish. As I explain on the other post, I'll be on the lookout for your reply to the matter I place in caps.

To make navigation easier for you, I will post this comment at various intervals. The timeline is scant and will be accompanied by others. First things first however, and it will take me awhile to post this one in its entirety, since the censor won't permit it.

Start here, please:

February 15, 2009 5:37 PM

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED
1543
In his pamphlet On the Jews and Their Lies Martin Luther advocates an eight-point plan to get rid of the Jews as a distinct group either by religious conversion or by expulsion:
"...set fire to their synagogues or schools..."
"...their houses also be razed and destroyed..."
"...their prayer books and Talmudic writings... be taken from them..."
"...their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb..."
"...safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews..."
"...usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them..." and "Such money should now be used in ... the following [way]... Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed [certain amount]..."
"...young, strong Jews and Jewesses [should]... earn their bread in the sweat of their brow..."
"If we wish to wash our hands of the Jews' blasphemy and not share in their guilt, we have to part company with them. They must be driven from our country" and "we must drive them out like mad dogs."
Luther "got the Jews expelled from Saxony in 1537 , and in the 1540s he drove them from many German towns; he tried unsuccessfully to get the elector to expel them from Brandenburg in 1543 . His followers continued to agitate against the Jews there: they sacked the Berlin synagogue in 1572 and the following year finally got their way, the Jews being banned from the entire country."[18] (See also Martin Luther and the Jews)
1540
All Jews are banished from Prague.
1546
Martin Luther's sermon Admonition against the Jews contains accusations of ritual murder, black magic, and poisoning of wells. Luther recognizes no obligation to protect the Jews.
1547
Ivan the Terrible becomes ruler of Russia and refuses to allow Jews to live in or even enter his kingdom because they "bring about great evil" (quoting his response to request by Polish king Sigismund II).
1550
Dr. Joseph Hacohen is chased out of Genoa for practicing medicine; soon all Jews are expelled.
1553
Pope Julius III forbids Talmud printing and orders burning of any copy found. Rome’s Inquisitor-General, Cardinal Carafa (later Pope Paul IV) has Talmud publicly burnt in Rome on Rosh Hashanah, starting a wave of Talmud burning throughout Italy. About 12,000 copies were destroyed.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

1554
Cornelio da Montalcino, a Franciscan Friar who converted to Judaism, is burned alive in Rome.
1555
In Papal Bull Cum nimis absurdum, Pope Paul IV writes: "It appears utterly absurd and impermissible that the Jews, whom God has condemned to eternal slavery for their guilt, should enjoy our Christian love." He renews anti-Jewish legislation and installs a locked nightly ghetto in Rome. The Bull also forces Jewish males to wear a yellow hat, females - yellow kerchief. Owning real estate or practicing medicine on Christians is forbidden. It also limits Jewish communities to only one synagogue.
1557
Jews are temporarily banished from Prague.
1558
Recanati, Italy: a baptized Jew Joseph Paul More enters synagogue on Yom Kippur under the protection of Pope Paul IV and tries to preach a conversion sermon. The congregation evicts him. Soon after, the Jews are expelled from Recanati.
1559
Pope Pius IV allows Talmud on conditions that it is printed by a Christian and the text is censored.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

1563 February
Russian troops take Polotsk from Lithuania, Jews are given ultimatum: embrace Russian Orthodox Church or die. Around 300 Jewish men, women and children were thrown into ice holes of Dvina river.
1564
Brest-Litovsk: the son of a wealthy Jewish tax collector is accused of killing the family's Christian servant for ritual purposes. He is tortured and executed in line with the law. King Sigismund II of Poland forbids future charges of ritual murder, calling them groundless.
1565
Jews are temporarily banished from Prague.
1566
Antonio Ghislieri elected and, as Pope Pius V, reinstates the harsh anti-Jewish laws of Pope Paul IV. In 1569 he expels Jews dwelling outside of the ghettos of Rome, Ancona, and Avignon from the Papal States, thus ensuring that they remain city-dwellers.
1567
Jews are reauthorised to live in France
1586
Pope Sixtus V forbids printing of the Talmud.
1590
Jewish quarter of Mikulov (Nikolsburg) burns to ground and 15 people die while Christians watch or pillage. King Philip II of Spain orders expulsion of Jews from Lombardy. His order is ignored by local authorities until 1597 , when 72 Jewish families are forced into exile.
1593 Feb. 25
Pope Clement VIII confirms the Papal bull of Paul III that expels Jews from Papal states except ghettos in Rome and Ancona and issues Caeca et obdurata ("Blind Obstinacy"): "All the world suffers from the usury of the Jews, their monopolies and deceit. ... Then as now Jews have to be reminded intermittently anew that they were enjoying rights in any country since they left Palestine and the Arabian desert, and subsequently their ethical and moral doctrines as well as their deeds rightly deserve to be exposed to criticism in whatever country they happen to live."
[edit] Seventeenth century
1603
Frei Diogo da Assumpcão, a partly Jewish friar who embraced Judaism, burned alive in Lisbon.
1608
The Jesuit order forbids admission to anyone descended from Jews to the fifth generation, a restriction lifted in the 20th century. Three years later Pope Paul V applies the rule throughout the Church, but his successor revokes it.

PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM
1612
The Hamburg Senate decides to officially allow Jews to live in the city on the condition there is no public worship.

Expulsion of the Jews from Frankfurt on August 23, 1614: "1380 persons old and young were counted at the exit of the gate"
1614
Vincent Fettmilch, who called himself the "new Haman of the Jews", leads a raid on Frankfurt synagogue that turned into an attack which destroyed the whole community.
1615
King Louis XIII of France decrees that all Jews must leave the country within one month on pain of death.
1615
The Guild led by Dr. Chemnitz, "non-violently" forced the Jews from Worms.
1619
Shah Abbasi of the Persian Sufi Dynasty increases persecution against the Jews, forcing many to outwardly practice Islam. Many keep practicing Judaism in secret.
1624
Ghetto established in Ferrara, Italy.
1632
King Ladislaus IV of Poland forbids antisemitic print-outs.
1648-1655
The Ukrainian Cossacks lead by Bohdan Chmielnicki massacre about 100,000 Jews and similar number of Polish nobles, 300 Jewish communities destroyed.
1655
Oliver Cromwell readmits Jews to England.
1664 May
Jews of Lvov ghetto organize self-defense against impending assault by students of Jesuit seminary and Cathedral school. The militia sent by the officials to restore order, instead joined the attackers. About 100 Jews killed.
1670
Jews expelled from Vienna.
1678
forced mass conversions in Yemen.
[edit] Eighteenth century
1711
Johann Andreas Eisenmenger writes his Entdecktes Judenthum ("Judaism Unmasked"), a work denouncing Judaism and which had a formative influence on modern antisemitic polemics.
1712
Blood libel in Sandomierz and expulsion of the town's Jews.
1727
Edict of Catherine I of Russia: "The Jews... who are found in Ukraine and in other Russian provinces are to be expelled at once beyond the frontiers of Russia."

PATRICKSARSFIELD:TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM

1734
1736: The Haidamaks, paramilitary bands in Polish Ukraine, attack Jews.
1742 Dec
Elizabeth of Russia issues a decree of expulsion of all the Jews out of Russian Empire. Her resolution to the Senate's appeal regarding harm to the trade: "I don't desire any profits from the enemies of Christ". One of the deportees is Antonio Ribera Sanchez, her own personal physician and the head of army's medical dept.
1744
Frederick II The Great (a "heroic genius", according to Hitler) limits Breslau to ten "protected" Jewish families, on the grounds that otherwise they will "transform it into complete Jerusalem". He encourages this practice in other Prussian cities. In 1750 he issues Revidiertes General Privilegium und Reglement vor die Judenschaft: "protected" Jews had an alternative to "either abstain from marriage or leave Berlin" (Simon Dubnow).
1744 Dec
Archduchess of Austria Maria Theresa orders: "... no Jew is to be tolerated in our inherited duchy of Bohemia" by the end of Feb. 1745. In Dec. 1748 she reverses her position, on condition that Jews pay for readmission every ten years. This extortion was known as malke-geld (queen's money). In 1752 she introduces the law limiting each Jewish family to one son.
1762
Rhode Island refuses to grant Jews Aaron Lopez and Isaac Eliezer citizenship stating "no person who is not of the Christian religion can be admitted free to this colony."
1768
Haidamaks massacre the Jews of Uman, Poland.
1771
Voltaire calls Jews "deadly to the human race", promotes racial antisemitism.
1775
Pope Pius VI issues a severe Editto sopra gli ebrei (Edict concerning the Jews). Previously lifted restrictions are reimposed, Judaism is suppressed.
1782
Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II abolishes most of persecution practices in Toleranzpatent on condition that Yiddish and Hebrew are eliminated from public records and judicial autonomy is annulled. Judaism is branded "quintessence of foolishness and nonsense". Moses Mendelssohn writes: "Such a tolerance... is even more dangerous play in tolerance than open persecution".
1790 May 20
Eleazer Solomon is quartered for the alleged murder of a Christian girl in Grodno.
1790
"To Bigotry No Sanction, to Persecution No Assistance" (George Washington's Letter to the Jews of Newport, Rhode Island)
1790-1792
Destruction of most of the Jewish communities of Morocco.
1791
Catherine II of Russia confines Jews to the Pale of Settlement and imposes them with double taxes. Pale of Settlement
[edit] Nineteenth century
1805
Massacre of Jews in Algeria.
1815
Pope Pius VII reestablishes the ghetto in Rome after the defeat of Napoleon.
1819
A series of anti-Jewish riots in Germany that spread to several neighboring countries: Denmark, Poland, Latvia and Bohemia known as Hep-Hep riots, from the derogatory rallying cry against the Jews in Germany.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED:

1827 August 26
Compulsory military service for the Jews of Russia: Jewish boys under 18 years of age, known as the Cantonists, were placed in preparatory military training establishments for 25 years. Cantonists were encouraged and sometimes forced to baptize.
1835
Oppressive constitution for the Jews issued by Czar Nicholas I of Russia.
1840
The Damascus affair: false accusations cause arrests and atrocities, culminating in the seizure of sixty-three Jewish children and attacks on Jewish communities throughout the Middle East.
1844
Karl Marx praises Bruno Bauer's essays containing demands that the Jews abandon Judaism, and publishes his work On the Jewish Question: "What is the worldly cult of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly god? Money... Money is the jealous God of Israel, besides which no other god may exist... The god of the Jews has been secularized and has become the god of this world", "In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Judaism." This probably led to the antisemitic feeling within communism.
1853
Blood libels in Saratov and throughout Russia.
1858
Edgardo Mortara, a six-year-old Jewish boy whom a maid had baptised during an illness, is taken from his parents in Bologna, an episode which aroused universal indignation in liberal circles.
1862
During the American Civil War General Grant issues General Order № 11 (1862), ordering all Jews out of his military district, suspecting them of pro-Confederate sympathy. President Lincoln directs him to rescind the order. Polish Jews are given equal rights. Old privileges forbidding Jews to settle in some Polish cities are abolished.
1871
Speech of Pope Pius IX in regard to Jews: "of these dogs, there are too many of them at present in Rome, and we hear them howling in the streets, and they are disturbing us in all places."
1878
Adolf Stoecker, German antisemitic preacher and politician, founds the Social Workers' Party, which marks the beginning of the political antisemitic movement in Germany.
1879
Heinrich von Treitschke, German historian and politician, justifies the antisemitic campaigns in Germany, bringing antisemitism into learned circles.

PatrickSarsfield: Timeline of antisemitism continued
1879
Wilhelm Marr coins the term antisemitism to distinguish himself from religious Anti-Judaism.
1881-1884
Pogroms sweep southern Russia, propelling mass Jewish emigration from the Pale of Settlement: about 2 million Russian Jews emigrated in period 1880-1924, many of them to the United States (until the National Origins Quota of 1924 and Immigration Act of 1924 largely halted immigration to the U.S. from Eastern Europe and Russia). The Russian word "pogrom" becomes international.
1882
The Tiszaeszlár blood libel in Hungary arouses public opinion throughout Europe.
1882
First International Anti-Jewish Congress convenes at Dresden, Germany.
1882 May
A series of "temporary laws" by Tsar Alexander III of Russia (the May Laws), which adopted a systematic policy of discrimination, with the object of removing the Jews from their economic and public positions, in order to "cause one-third of the Jews to emigrate, one-third to accept baptism and one-third to starve" (according to a remark attributed to Konstantin Pobedonostsev)
1887
Russia introduces measures to limit Jews access to education, known as the quota.
1891
Blood libel in Xanten, Germany.
1891
Expulsion of 20,000 Jews from Moscow, Russia. The Congress of the United States eases immigration restrictions for Jews from the Russian Empire. (Webster-Campster report)
1893
Karl Lueger establishes antisemitic Christian Social Party and becomes the Mayor of Vienna in 1897 .


The treason conviction of Alfred Dreyfus.
1894
The Dreyfus Affair in France. In 1898 Émile Zola publishes open letter J'accuse!
1895
A. C. Cuza organizes the Alliance Anti-semitique Universelle in Bucharest, Romania.
1899
Houston Stewart Chamberlain, racist and antisemitic author, publishes his Die Grundlagen des 19 Jahrhunderts which later became a basis of National-Socialist ideology.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED
1899
Blood libel in Bohemia (the Hilsner case).
[edit] Twentieth century
In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the Roman Catholic Church adhered to a distinction between "good antisemitism" and "bad antisemitism". The "bad" kind promoted hatred of Jews because of their descent. This was considered un-Christian because the Christian message was intended for all of humanity regardless of ethnicity; anyone could become a Christian. The "good" kind criticized alleged Jewish conspiracies to control newspapers, banks, and other institutions, to care only about accumulation of wealth, etc. Many Catholic bishops wrote articles criticizing Jews on such grounds, and, when accused of promoting hatred of Jews, would remind people that they condemned the "bad" kind of antisemitism.[19]


The victims of a 1905 pogrom in Dnipropetrovsk.
1903
The Kishinev pogrom: 49 Jews murdered.
1903
The first publication of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion hoax in St. Petersburg, Russia (by Pavel Krushevan).
1909
Salomon Reinach and Florence Simmonds refer to "this new antisemitism, masquerading as patriotism, which was first propagated at Berlin by the court chaplain Stöcker, with the connivance of Bismarck." [20] Similarly, Peter N. Stearns comments that "the ideology behind the new anti-Semitism [in Germany] was more racist than religious." [21]
1911
The Blood libel trial of Menahem Mendel Beilis in Kiev.

PATRICKSARSFIELD: ANTISEMITISM TIMELINE CONTINUED

1915
The World War I prompts expulsion of 250,000 Jews from Western Russia.
The Leo Frank trial and lynching in Atlanta, Georgia turns the spotlight on antisemitism in the United States and leads to the founding of the Anti-Defamation League.
1917-1921
Attacked for being revolutionaries or counter-revolutionaries, unpatriotic pacifists or warmongers, religious zealots or godless atheists, capitalist exploiters or bourgeois profiteers, masses of Jewish civilians (by various estimates 70,000 to 250,000, the number of orphans exceeded 300,000) were murdered in pogroms in the course of Russian Civil War.
1919-1922
Soviet Yevsektsiya (the Jewish section of the Communist Party) attacks Bund and Zionist parties for "Jewish cultural particularism". In April 1920 , the All-Russian Zionist Congress is broken up by Cheka led by Bolsheviks, whose leadership and ranks included many anti-Jewish Jews. Thousands are arrested and sent to Gulag for "counter-revolutionary... collusion in the interests of Anglo-French bourgeoisie... to restore the Palestine state." Hebrew language is banned, Judaism is suppressed, along with other religions.
1920
The Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920 of old Yishuv
The idea that the Bolshevik revolution was a Jewish conspiracy for the world domination sparks worldwide interest in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. In a single year, five editions are sold out in England alone. In the US Henry Ford prints 500,000 copies and begins a series of antisemitic articles in The Dearborn Independent newspaper.
1921 May 1-4
Jaffa riots in Palestine.
1921-1925
Outbreak of antisemitism in USA, led by Ku Klux Klan.
1924
The National Origins Quota of 1924 and Immigration Act of 1924 largely halted immigration to the U.S. from Eastern Europe and Russia; many later saw these governmental policies as having antisemitic undertones, as a great many of these immigrants coming from Russia and Eastern Europe were Jews (the "outbreak of antisemitism" mentioned in the above entry may have also played a part in the passage of these acts).
1925
Adolf Hitler publishes Mein Kampf.
1929 August 23
The ancient Jewish community of Hebron is destroyed in the Hebron massacre. [22]
1933-1941
Persecution of Jews in Germany rises until they are stripped of their rights not only as citizens, but also as human beings. During this time antisemitism reached its all-time high.[2]
• Law against Overcrowding of German Schools and Universities
• Law for the Reestablishment of the Professional Civil Service (ban on professions)

TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED
1934
2,000 of Afghani Jews expelled from their towns and forced to live in the wilderness.
1934
The first appearance of The Franklin Prophecy on the pages of William Dudley Pelley's pro-Nazi weekly magazine Liberation. According to the US Congress report:
"The Franklin "Prophecy" is a classic antisemitic canard that falsely claims that American statesman Benjamin Franklin made anti-Jewish statements during the Constitutional Convention of 1787 . It has found widening acceptance in Muslim and Arab media, where it has been used to criticize Israel and Jews..."[23]
1935
Nuremberg Laws introduced. Jewish rights rescinded. The Reich Citizenship Law strips them of citizenship. The Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honor:
• Marriages between Jews and citizens of German or kindred blood are forbidden.
• Sexual relations outside marriage between Jews and nationals of German or kindred blood are forbidden.
• Jews will not be permitted to employ female citizens of German or kindred blood as domestic servants.
• Jews are forbidden to display the Reich and national flag or the national colors. On the other hand they are permitted to display the Jewish colors.
1938
Anschluss, pogroms in Vienna, anti-Jewish legislation, deportations to concentration camps.
• Decree authorizing local authorities to bar Jews from the streets on certain days
• Decree empowering the justice Ministry to void wills offending the "sound judgment of the people"
• Decree providing for compulsory sale of Jewish real estate
• Decree providing for liquidation of Jewish real estate agencies, brokerage agencies, and marriage agencies catering to non-Jews
• Directive providing for concentration of Jews in houses
1938
Father Charles E. Coughlin, Roman Catholic priest, starts antisemitic weekly radio broadcasts in the United States.
1938 November 9-10
Kristallnacht (Night of The Broken Glass). In one night most German synagogues and hundreds of Jewish-owned German businesses are destroyed. Almost 100 Jews are killed, and 10,000 are sent to concentration camps.[24]
1938 November 17
Racial legislation introduced in Italy. Anti Jewish economic legislation in Hungary.
1938 July 6-15
Evian Conference: 31 countries refuse to accept Jews trying to escape Nazi Germany (with exception of Dominican Republic). Most find temporary refuge in Poland. See also Bermuda Conference.
1939
The "Voyage of the damned": S.S. St. Louis, carrying 907 Jewish refugees from Germany, is turned back by Cuba and the US.[25]

TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED

1939 February
The Congress of the United States rejects the Wagner-Rogers Bill, an effort to admit 20,000 Jewish refugee children under the age of 14 from Nazi Germany.[26]
1939-1945
The Holocaust. About 6 million Jews, including 1.5 million children, systematically killed by Nazi Germany. See also Holocaust denial.
1941
The Farhud pogrom in Baghdad results in 200 Jews dead, 2,000 wounded.
1946 July 4
The Kielce pogrom. 37 (+2) Jews were massacred and 80 wounded out of about 200 who returned home after World War II. There were also killed 2 non-Jewish Poles.
1946
Nikita Khrushchev, then the first secretary of Communist party of Ukraine, closes many synagogues (the number declines from 450 to 60) and prevents Jewish refugees from returning to their homes: "It is not in our interests that the Ukrainians should associate the return of the Soviet power with the return of the Jews."[27]
1948 January 13
Solomon Mikhoels, actor-director of the Moscow State Jewish Theater and chairman of Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee is killed in suspicious car accident (see MGB). Mass arrests of prominent Jewish intellectuals and suppression of Jewish culture follow under the banners of campaign on rootless cosmopolitanism and anti-Zionism.
1948-2001
Antisemitism played a major role in the Jewish exodus from Arab lands. The Jewish population in the Arab Middle East and North Africa has decreased from 900,000 in 1948 to less than 8,000 in 2001.
1948
During the Siege of Jerusalem of the Arab-Israeli War, Arab armies were able to conquer the part of the West Bank and Jerusalem; they expelled all Jews (about 2,000) from the Old City (the Jewish Quarter) and destroyed the ancient synagogues that were in Old City as well.
1952 August 12-13
The Night of the Murdered Poets. Thirteen most prominent Soviet Yiddish writers, poets, actors and other intellectuals were executed, among them Peretz Markish, Leib Kwitko, David Hofstein, Itzik Feffer, David Bergelson.[28] [29] In 1955 UN General Assembly's session a high Soviet official still denied the 1939 February
The Congress of the United States rejects the Wagner-Rogers Bill, an effort to admit 20,000 Jewish refugee children under the age of 14 from Nazi Germany.[26]

ANTISEMITISM TIMELINE CONTINUED
1952
The Prague Trials in Czechoslovakia.
1953
The Doctors' plot false accusation in the USSR. Scores of Soviet Jews dismissed from their jobs, arrested, some executed. The USSR was accused of pursuing a "new antisemitism." [30] Stalinist opposition to "rootless cosmopolitans" – a euphemism for Jews – was rooted in the belief, as expressed by Klement Gottwald, that "treason and espionage infiltrate the ranks of the Communist Party. This channel is Zionism." [31] This newer antisemitism was, in effect, a species of anti-Zionism.
1964
The Roman Catholic Church under Pope Paul VI issues the document Nostra Aetate as part of Vatican II, repudiating the doctrine of Jewish guilt for the Crucifixion.


"Judaism Without Embellishments" published by the Academy of Sciences of the Ukrainian SSR in 1963
1960s-1991
The rise of Zionology in the Soviet Union. In 1983 , the Department of Propaganda and the KGB's Anti-Zionist committee of the Soviet public orchestrates formally "anti-Zionist" campaign.
1968
Polish 1968 political crisis. The state-organized antisemitic campaign in the People's Republic of Poland under guise of "anti-Zionism" drives out most of remaining Jewish population.
1968
The ancient Jewish community of Hebron, which had been destroyed in the 1929 Hebron massacre, is revived at Kiryat Arba. The community, in 1979 and afterwards, moves into Hebron proper and rebuilds the demolished Abraham Avinu Synagogue, the site of which had been used by Jordan as a cattle-pen.
1983
The Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod officially disassociates itself from "intemperate remarks about Jews" in Luther's works. Since then, many Lutheran church bodies and organizations have issued similar statements. (See Martin Luther and the Jews)
Since 1987
Activities of Pamyat and other "nonformal" ultra-nationalist organizations in the Soviet Union.
1994
Second Hebron massacre. Baruch Goldstein, a Jew, kills several Muslim worshippers; this leads to riots that kill both Muslims and Jews.
1999 August 10
Buford O. Furrow, Jr. kills mail carrier Joseph Santos Ileto and shoots five people in the August 1999 Los Angeles Jewish Community Center shooting.

PatrickSarsfield:

Here begins my reply to your last post. Please read this comment first to make sense of the timeline and other documents I shall publish. As I explain I'll be on the lookout for your reply to the matter I place in caps.

To make navigation easier for you, I will post this comment at various intervals. The timeline is scant and will be accompanied by others. First things first however, and it will take me awhile to post this one in its entirety, since the censor won't permit it.

Start here, please:

February 15, 2009 5:37 PM

Timeline of Antisemitism continued

2002
Massive European wave of attacks on Jews and Jewish institutions between March and May, with largest number of attacks occurring in France.
2002
Third Hebron massacre. Palestinians killed Israeli soldiers and rescue workers, as well as others, on the road from the Tomb of the Patriarchs to Kiryat Arba. [3]
2003 October 16
The Malaysian Prime Minister Dr. Mahathir Mohammed draws standing ovation at the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference for his speech. An excerpt: "[Muslims] are actually very strong. 1.3 billion people cannot be simply wiped out. The Nazis killed 6 million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them. They invented socialism, communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong so they may enjoy equal rights with others. With these they have now gained control of the most powerful countries. And they, this tiny community, have become a world power."
2004 April
United Talmud Torah school library was firebombed in Montreal, Canada.
2004 June
A series of attacks on Jewish cemeteries in Wellington, New Zealand.
2004 September
The European Commission against Racism and Intolerance, a part of the Council of Europe, called on its member nations to "ensure that criminal law in the field of combating racism covers anti-Semitism" and to penalize intentional acts of public incitement to violence, hatred or discrimination, public insults and defamation, threats against a person or group, and the expression of antisemitic ideologies. It urged member nations to "prosecute people who deny, trivialize or justify the Holocaust". The report was drawn up in wake of a rise in attacks on Jews in Europe. The report said it was Europe's "duty to remember the past by remaining vigilant and actively opposing any manifestations of racism, xenophobia, anti-Semitism and intolerance... Anti-Semitism is not a phenomenon of the past and... the slogan 'never again' is as relevant today as it was 60 years ago." ([4])
2005 September
Throughout the Polish election Radio Maryja continued to promote antisemitic views, including denial of the facts of the Jedwabne pogrom in 1941. Their support of right-wing conservative Law and Justice party is considered a major factor in their electoral victory.[32]
2005 October
A nazi swastika was spray-painted to the side of Temple Beth El synagogue in Portland, Maine.

Timeline of antisemitism continued

2005
A group of 15 members of the State Duma of Russia demands that Judaism and Jewish organizations be banned from the country. In June, 500 prominent Russians demand that the state prosecutor investigate ancient Jewish texts as "anti-Russian" and ban Judaism. The investigation was launched, but halted among international outcry.
2005 December
Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad widens the hostility between Iran and Israel by denying the Holocaust during a speech in the Iranian city of Zahedan. He made the following comments on live television: "They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets." Continuing, he suggested that if the Holocaust had occurred, that it was the responsibility of Europeans to offer up territory to Jews: "This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them [the Jews] so that the Jews can establish their country." See Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel
2006 February

TIMELINE OF ANTISEMITISM CONTINUED:

2006 February
A French Jew, Ilan Halimi is kidnapped and tortured to death for 23 days in what Paris police have officially declared an antisemitic act.[33] The event causes international outcry.[34] On May 9, the Helsinki Commission held a briefing titled "Tools for Combating Anti-Semitism: Police Training and Holocaust Education". [35]
2006 March
Two synagogues in Montreal, Canada were vandalized with spray-painted swastikas and Nazi SS symbols.[36]
2006 July
Naveed Afzal Haq kills Pamela Waechter and injures five others in the July 2006 Seattle Jewish Federation shooting.
2006 September
A school in Ontario had one wall spray painted in anti-Jewish phrases and Nazi symbols.
2006 December
The International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust was a two-day conference that opened on December 11, 2006 in Tehran, Iran; many saw it as a conference rife with antisemitism, anti-Zionism, and Holocaust denial.
2007 August/September
The Jewish state, Israel, is shocked to find a neo-Nazi group of immigrants (from Russia) committing vandalism and voicing anti-Semitic rhetoric within its borders; also, this group had members that came in under the Law of Return. One of that group's members was a grandchild of a Holocaust survivor, and all were of Jewish descent. The group was violent against gays, Ethiopian Jews, haredi Jews, and drug addicts. [5]
2007 and 2008
Pope Benedict XVI, via the document Summorum Pontificum, officially revives the Tridentine mass, which contains a Good Friday prayer asking for the conversion of the Jews. This leads to criticism from Jewish leaders, charging that the prayer is anti-Semitic. The Vatican subsequently issues a statement condemning anti-Semitism, but is reluctant to remove the prayer. and Benedict visits the Park East Synagogue in an April 2008 visit to New York, which is apparently well-received, with the congregants and the Pope exchanging gifts with each other. [6][7]

Timeline of antisemitism continued
418
The first record of Jews being forced to convert or face expulsion. Severus, the Bishop of Minorca, claimed to have forced 540 Jews to accept Christianity upon conquering the island.
419
The monk Barsauma (subsequently the Bishop of Nisibis) gathers a group of followers and for the next three years destroys synagogues throughout the province of Palestine.
429
The East Roman Emperor Theodosius II orders all funds raised by Jews to support schools be turned over to his treasury.
439 Jan 31
The Codex Theodosianus, the first imperial compilation of laws. Jews are prohibited from holding important positions involving money, including judicial and executive offices. The ban against building new synagogues is reinstated. The anti-Jewish statutes apply to the Samaritans. The Code is also accepted by Western Roman Emperor, Valentinian III.
451
Sassanid ruler Yazdegerd II of Persia's decree abolishes the Sabbath and orders executions of Jewish leaders, including the Exilarch Mar Nuna.
465
Council of Vannes, Gaul prohibited the Christian clergy from participating in Jewish feasts.

PatrickSarsfield:

I am increasingly at a loss to follow your logic. As you say, you are composing in English, but any language can be voided of logic. This you accomplish admirably in the case of America's lingua franca. I have posted two links on Polish Catholic antisemitism, dealing with a fraction of the kidnappings, rapes, tortures, pogroms, public humiliations, etc., which Polish Catholics visted upon Jews historically. Up to the day of the nazi invasion, indeed while the Germans were massing at Poland's borders, Polish Catholics were practicing antisemitism, directing violence at Polish Jews, sponsoring University Days without Jews, etc. So busy were the Polish Catholics with their nativist antisemitism that they ignored the coming war.

On these links, on historic Polish antisemitism you have nothing to say. Instead you bring up Polish Catholic "collaborators" with the Nazis whom I have not yet even addressed. "Jewish police" existed in the ghettoes. I haven't even come to the ghettoes or to the occupation.

Then you bring up the Israeli Palestinian conflict which is as relevant to the Holocaust as the the World Series is to football.

We are talking about the Shoah, which you simply won't deal with or engage. Elsewhere on this blog I posted on Catholic/Christia--historic events. It took me six posts to get through it, yet I spent the time, since those invested in denying antisemitism tend not to go to links.

I keep waiting for you to comment on those I posted. Instead they refer to the World Series, its connection to football, and the Bronx Zoo.

So, although it will take time, and although I can't do it all at once, I will post various lists of Catholic Jew-killing, Jew-torturing, Jew-baiting, etc.

There doesn't seem anything else I can do, since you won't engage the topic. I'll be on the lookout for any posts that might attempt legitimate dialogue.

In the meantime, I'M POSTING THIS IN CAPS, SO THAT YOU WILL BE SURE TO SEE IT, SINCE I'M ANXIOUS TO HAVE DATA ON THIS, ALTHOUGH IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN ANTISEMITISM.

YOU WRITE:

anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.
_____________________________
PLEASE PROVIDE SOURCES, PERCENTEGAES, ETC., ON THE "MAJOR SEGMENTS OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE" THAT HAVE "SHOWN" "ANTI-PALESTINIANISM."
_______________

Sources and percentages, please, i.e., overall Jewish population, per cent that has shown the behavior you indicated, the nature of the behavior. Kindly post nation by nation.

Farnaz,
I can't believe you wrote this:
"On the matter of remembering and forgetting, not being of either Polish Jewish or Polish Catholic descent, I should not have the stake in remembering that you should have. "

So, this remembrance thing is just a question of whose ox is gored? BTW, I am not Polish. I am an admirer of the great sacrifice of the Polish Nation during and subsequent to WWII though.

Farnaz,
You write:
"Then you close with an indecipherable, incomprehensible cause/effect construction. Kindly translate the sentence with which you end your post."

It is written in English and it is quite understandable. To repeat:

"Instead of focusing on that History of Bravery and Suffering of the Polish nation (which played a major part in bringing about the End of the Cold War, the collapse of Communist Dictatorships throughout Eastern Europe and the Fall of the Evil Empire, the Old Soviet Union), you would condemn an entire nation for the collaboration and shameful anti-Semitism of some.

That is unquestionably a whitewash of History, and yet you would never let the sufferings of the Jewish people in the Holocaust be forgotten because of the undeniable collaboration of Jews like the Kapos and Jewish Police or because of the anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown. I agree that that suffering should never be forgotten but you need to admit the great suffering and sacrifice of the Polish People."

Farnaz,
It is you who are looking at icebergs and calling them tips, not I. The History of WWII is the history of a world at war. Many countries and many religions lost millions of people in that war. Besides concentratrion camps, people died in battles and in sweeps by the Gestapo, etc. The history of Poland in WWWII is about a lot more than collaboration. Unlike most of the people of Conquered Europe, the Poles fought bravely and long throughout the War and you would reduce their history to the relative handful of collaborators there undeniably were.

We need to discuss the good things done by Poles because you started out maligning a number of countries that have passed anti-Holocaust Denial Legislation and suggested that they may have had ulterior motives for passing such. You noted that they--like all the conquered peoples, including the Jews--had had collaborators among them and many had histories of anti-Semitism. You even doubted that countries like Lithuania lost many Christians to the mobile death squads of the Nazis who wanted to eliminate Slavic "untermenschen" as well as Jews.

I responded that Poland and Lithuania had suffered greatly in the Holocaust even if one ignores the deaths of Jews from their countries. The Germans' Killing Machine killed 11 Million people, 6 million jews and 5 million gentiles. We have been back and forth about your refusal to recognize that there were far more Polish gentile victims of the Holocaustt than there were Polish collaborators. Your most recent responses include this:

"Note: I have not yet touched the tip of the iceberg, regarding Polish Catholic antiJewish racism, let alone Polish Catholic collaboration with the Nazis."

When you come up with a cogent explanation why that racism and collaboration disqualifies the legitimate Polish suffering and sacrifice from consideration while Jewish anti-Palestinianism and Jewish collaboration with the Nazis (the Jewish Police, the Kapos, the Transfer Agreement) should be ignored, we can move onto the stuff you want to address. You have still not addressed my points though and you need to do so. You need to confront the fact that all countries have xenophobic shame in their histories (ever hear of the Battle of Jericho or Shattila??) and all the conquered people of Europe supplied collaborators to the Nazis. Yet the Poles have a History of resistance to the Nazis too that meritsrecognition that they have their own reasons NEVER TO FORGET!

PatrickSarsfield:

On the matter of remembering and forgetting, not being of either Polish Jewish or Polish Catholic descent, I should not have the stake in remembering that you should have. Here is a worthwhile link: a "History of Pogroms in Poland," from the New York Times.

It doesn't, of course, contain the whole wretched story, but it's easily accessible and accurate as far as it goes. I still haven't heard from you on your response to the link I posted earlier. It is you, not I, who should desire never to forget.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=2&res=9F0DE6DF1F39E13ABC4953DFB0668382609EDE

Btw.,

Kindly, do not tell me what I will and will not forget or allow to be forgotten. You do not know me, nor do I know you.

Patrick:

That is unquestionably a whitewash of History, and yet you would never let the sufferings of the Jewish people in the Holocaust be forgotten because of the undeniable collaboration of Jews like the Kapos and Jewish Police or because of the anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown.
_________________________________
Again and again, you protest that you are not trying to whitewash the history of Polish Catholic antisemitism: kidnapping and forced conversions of Jewish children, rapes, murders, pogroms, public humiliations, university days without Jews, etc.

Then you close with an indecipherable, incomprehensible cause/effect construction. Kindly translate the sentence with which you end your post.

Note: I have not yet touched the tip of the iceberg, regarding Polish Catholic antiJewish racism, let alone Polish Catholic collaboration with the Nazis.

Part Two of Response to Farnaz:
You also write that I am looking to "whitewash" something. To the contrary, I am trying to get you to recognize that there were 50 Million dead in WWII and 11 Million in the Holocaust, millions of them Poles. The overall Jewish deaths in the Holocaust constituted a majority of the deaths, but the Poles (Jews or Gentiles considered separately) also suffered a lot and fought bravely in a way no other occupied people did. You need to focus on that and not ignore it because there were some Polish collaborators and a History of Anti-Semitism before the War.

As to after the War, the Jewish population of Poland was quite small. While there were a few anti-Semitic riots that bring disgrace down on the rioters, the far more important and longer lived story of post-WWII Poland is of how the Polish people were enslaved by the Communists and managed to gain their freedom by bravery and freedom-loving resistance against a much longer lived dictatorship than that imposed by the Nazis. Poland was surrounded by Communist enemies (or as they called it: friends) and the West let the Polish freedom lovers twist slowly in the wind whenever the Communists chose to assert their "paramount role."

The Russians had come in along with the Nazis and enslaved Poland in 1939. We Westerners acquiesced in the continued subjugation of the Poles--despite their great efforts for the Allied Cause--in the shameful surrender of Roosevelt and Churchill to Stalin's demands at Yalta. It is sad to say that most of us in the West have forgotten that History. Instead of focusing on that History of Bravery and Suffering of the Polish nation (which played a major part in bringing about the End of the Cold War, the collapse of Communist Dictatorships throughout Eastern Europe and the Fall of the Evil Empire, the Old Soviet Union), you would condemn an entire nation for the collaboration and shameful anti-Semitism of some.

That is unquestionably a whitewash of History, and yet you would never let the sufferings of the Jewish people in the Holocaust be forgotten because of the undeniable collaboration of Jews like the Kapos and Jewish Police or because of the anti-Palestinianism that major segments of the Jewish people have shown. I agree that that suffering should never be forgotten but you need to admit the great suffering and sacrifice of the Polish People.

Response in two parts:

Farnaz,
You wrote:

"Even your use of the word "collaborators" is a way of removing culpability from those peoples who did not merely surrender to the spread of the Holocaust, but rather used it as an opportunity to continue what may reasonably called the Shoah of history."

As I have repeatedly stated, there is no question that there was Polish Anti-Semitism before during and after WWII, just as there has been Jewish Anti-Palestinianism before during and after all the Israeli wars since 1948. I am, however, trying to get you to focus on the bigger story of the sufferings and sacrifice of the Poles during WWII.

The overwhelming bulk of Poles were not involved in the Holocaust (there were millions of Polish victims, of course, both Jewish and Gentile) nor were they collaborators. The Poles fought bravely throughout the War to rid the World of the Nazi threat both in Poland and throughout Europe and North Africa. I know of no other occupied people in Europe (except the French after the Nov. 1942 liberation of North Africa) that kept the kind of force in the field that the Poles did throughout the War. Certainly not the Danes, Norwegians, Dutch, Czechs or Yugoslavs. It is true that as the War went on, some partisan resistance grew to the Nazis with Yugoslavia, Poland and France probably raising the largest partisan forces, but Poland kept the largest "conventional forces" in the field by far. And with the exception of the Jews and Russians, no other occupied country suffered nearly as many dead as the Poles did in either the Holocaust or the other dying that WWII entailed (40 Million or so dead).

That is why I have repeatedly stated that the Poles have an independent reason to require legislation against Holocaust Denial quite apart from the suffering of Polish Jews. The Polish Gentiles did quite enough suffering for that nation to be in favor of Holocaust-denial legislation. You can look for hidden reasons for why the Poles have such legislation, but as William of Ockham would say a simple straightforward answer is usually the right one.

patricksarsfield Author Profile Page:

Farnaz,
As an afterthought, you write:
"None of this is to say that there weren't heroic Poles, e.g., Jan Karski or that all Poles were racists, of course."
-----------------------------------
Wow, talk about niggardly responses to one of the truly inspiring stories of bravery and horrid stories of suffering during WWII!
_____________________________
Patrick,
I'm trying to avoid "snarl" words, but you make it almost impossible. If, as you say, I have an "agenda," it is only in response to yours, which I perceive as a "whitewash." Even your use of the word "collaborators" is a way of removing culpability from those peoples who did not merely surrender to the spread of the Holocaust, but rather used it as an opportunity to continue what may reasonably called the Shoah of history. In this, Poland was most grievously involved. I understand that you would like facts, and, in fact, provided you with a good link from an impeccable source on Polish antisemitism.

For me to attempt to deliver a course on a blog is simply impractical. However, since I'm putting together a new bib on the history of the Holocaust, I will post from time to time, books you may find useful. This, I think, would be more sound than for me to simply post the old bib.

The question is whether you wish to know about antisemitism in Poland (pogroms involving the slaughter of tens of thousands throughout history, kidnappings of Jewish children, beatings and humiliations in the streets, University "days without Jews," rapes, etc. up to and including those occurring during the German occupation.) Do you wish to know about Polish antisemitism post-Occupation?

These are straightforward questions, having nothing to do with "collaboration," a separate topic upon which I would also post. Since I don't do this kind of work, half-assed, it will take me time and thought.

Therefore, I need a straightforward answer, not demagogic defenses (I'm not accusing, just stating). Are you interested in what I have proposed to do for you, or aren't you? If, so, no problem. If not, no problem.

Farnaz,
As an afterthought, you write:
"None of this is to say that there weren't heroic Poles, e.g., Jan Karski or that all Poles were racists, of course."

Wow, talk about niggardly responses to one of the truly inspiring stories of bravery and horrid stories of suffering during WWII!

You have an agenda to talk about historical anti-Semitism in Poland rather than about the great sacrifices and suffering of the Poles during WWII or their commendable passage of anti-Holocaust denial legislation, but, as I pointed out, you are beating a dead horse. As I have said, of course there was anti-Semitism in Poland as there is anti-Palestinianism in Israel, racial and religious prejudice in the US, etc.

Your response to good news about countries like Poland (and the many other majority Catholic nations) that have passed Holocaust denial legislation is to suspect ulterior motives and to note that there were collaborators in those countries. Of course there were collaborators, but there were collaborators among every conquered group--including the Jews (e.g., Kapos and Jewish Police).

Yet your response is to ignore that salient fact and to go back on the attack against the only country that suffered casualties amnong its Christians that approached 50% of the total Jewish deaths in the Holocaust. You judge the Poles far more harshly for the small amount of Collaboration that went on among Polish Catholics than you do your felloe Jews for similart collaboration. That is not fair.

Patrick:

None of this is to say that there weren't heroic Poles, e.g., Jan Karski or that all Poles were racists, of course.

PatrickSarsfield:

I don't follow you at all. This discussion is about Poland. We appear to have a disagreement about Polish Catholics and institutionalized antisemitism. Such a discussion involves issues of citizenship, civic and human rights, etc. It necessarily involves the Catholic Church, specific clerics, pogroms, etc.

Frankly, I don't think we're getting anywhere. I'll post a bibliography, one that's fairly up-to-date, and then go century by century. When the new bibliography is complete, if you're interested, I'll post that as well.

Best,
Farnaz

Farnaz,
You write:
"No go, Patrick. Your reference to the Polish and the Jews was pre-genocide. The Polish Catholics, the overwhelming majority, did not consider the Jews to be Poles. They still don't want references and quotes? I won't say it would be my pleasure to post on Polish Catholic discrimination against Polish Jews up to and including the Holocaust, throughout the centuries, but I will do it"

You're beating a dead horse, Farnaz. There certainly was anti-Semitism among the pre-war Poles just as there is anti-Palestinianism among the Jews of present day Israel who do not want to share "their" land with the people who were there before them, but there was also much tolerance in Poland too. Back in the day when there was a Polish State (and there had been none for most of the 150 years before WWII), the Poles were one of the only countries in Europe that invited the Jews to make a home among them.

There likewise was some collaboration by Poles with the Germans, but the vast majority of Poles did not collaborate. You need to admit that.

As to the undeniable stain of Anti-Semitism on the otherwise heroic actions of the Poles during WWII, the sad fact is that most countries--Jewish or Gentile--that have minorities within them nevertheless restrict their concept of "the nation" to those with whom the bulk of the people share a common ancestry. In the US, in the past, we went even further by actually having our Constitution regard some of those people as less than human. The Polish Constitution never took such a disgraceful position! I am grateful to report that we in the West, particularly in the US, have by now gotten beyond that.

Neither pre-War Poland, which suffered greatly for long periods at the hands of larger more dominant countries such as Prussia and Russia, nor present day Israel, which likewise has a long "racial memory" of a unique history of suffering, though, chose to define their nationhood with respect to a more universal sense of brotherhood. Indeed, even in the Twenty First Century, Israel chooses to define itself as a "Jewish State." Should the non-Jews who inhabit Israel be forced to accept that? Should they be second class citizens in their own country? We in the US would generally not try to impose such treatment on any minority, but we probably will never make an issue of the treatment of Arabs in Israel either.

So, in the end, I can agree with you that the Poles too share in the sin of hostility to the other, but I don't know any group that has escaped that flaw.

Stadbear:

stadtbear Author Profile Page:

Perhaps, Farnaz2, et al., the real problem is that you are eaten with jealousy because 6 million dead Jews get more attention than you do.
_______________________
Good God, Stadtbear.

Stadtbear:

And once again your ignorance sounds banshee like in the night. You are a completely discredited fool. What are you, 14? Which of your split personalities are you now?

February 14, 2009 12:12
___________________
I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings. You're acting hysterical, and, quite frankly, I don't know why. Steven17's comment was obviously offensive, but more to the point, rests on an assumption that is simply not the case. Jews don't consider themselves to be "the chosen peopl," as we don't know what it means. Period. If you can provide me with a Mishnaic, Talmudic source, a source by an acknowledged great authority, I will withdraw the statement.

Perhaps, Farnaz2, et al., the real problem is that you are eaten with jealousy because 6 million dead Jews get more attention than you do.

Shrieking won't do it. Neither will delusions. Jews, particularly Holocaust survivors never refer to themselves as "chosen." Quite the contrary, they attribute their survival to blind luck. See, e.g., Simon Wiesenthal, Elie Wiesel, Olga Lengyl, Sara Pryztyk, Primo Levi, et al.

>Again, no Jews claim they're the chosen people. The phrase is meaningless to us, although evidently not so to you. Hence the endless whining, complaining, ranting, accusing.

Kindly wait for your next thorazine dosage before posting again, unless you find you can do so with civility, which I somehow doubt. Alternatively, seek pastoral help.

And once again your ignorance sounds banshee like in the night. You are a completely discredited fool. What are you, 14? Which of your split personalities are you now?

Shrieking won't do it. Neither will delusions. Jews, particularly Holocaust survivors never refer to themselves as "chosen." Quite the contrary, they attribute their survival to blind luck. See, e.g., Simon Wiesenthal, Elie Wiesel, Olga Lengyl, Sara Pryztyk, Primo Levi, et al.

>Again, no Jews claim they're the chosen people. The phrase is meaningless to us, although evidently not so to you. Hence the endless whining, complaining, ranting, accusing.

Kindly wait for your next thorazine dosage before posting again, unless you find you can do so with civility, which I somehow doubt. Alternatively, seek pastoral help.

And once again your ignorance sounds banshee like in the night. You are a completely discredited fool. What are you, 14? Which of your split personalities are you now?

STADTBEAR:
You are a shrill fool as well as a psychotic, Farnaz2. I know many Jews who claim precisely that...and most of them have numbers on the undersides of their left arms. You and your multiple personalities are impressive only for your mood swings. Grow up.
_________________________
Shrieking won't do it. Neither will delusions. Jews, particularly Holocaust survivors never refer to themselves as "chosen." Quite the contrary, they attribute their survival to blind luck. See, e.g., Simon Wiesenthal, Elie Wiesel, Olga Lengyl, Sara Pryztyk, Primo Levi, et al.

Again, no Jews claim they're the chosen people. The phrase is meaningless to us, although evidently not so to you. Hence the endless whining, complaining, ranting, accusing.

Kindly wait for your next thorazine dosage before posting again, unless you find you can do so with civility, which I somehow doubt. Alternatively, seek pastoral help.

All Comments (133)
Farnaz2 Author Profile Page:

stadtbear Author Profile Page:

Stephen17 Author Profile Page:

>If the Jews are God's chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn't get me.

Not to worry. We only have the Jews' claim for that...

February 13, 2009 10:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
_________________________

>YES To Worry. NO JEW HAS EVER CLAIMED THAT SO YOU DON'T HAVE OUR WORD ON THAT. YOU ONLY HAVE YOUR OWN WORD ON THAT....

You are a shrill fool as well as a psychotic, Farnaz2. I know many Jews who claim precisely that...and most of them have numbers on the undersides of their left arms. You and your multiple personalities are impressive only for your mood swings. Grow up.

stadtbear Author Profile Page:

Stephen17 Author Profile Page:

>If the Jews are God's chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn't get me.

Not to worry. We only have the Jews' claim for that...

February 13, 2009 10:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
_________________________

YES To Worry. NO JEW HAS EVER CLAIMED THAT SO YOU DON'T HAVE OUR WORD ON THAT. YOU ONLY HAVE YOUR OWN WORD ON THAT....

PatrickSarsfield

you simply launch into more innuendo:
______________________________
You can ad hom all you'd like, but what then is the point of posting? Unless you don't understand the meaning of the word innuendo. If so, please see dictionary.

As for capos, Jewish Police, I'll answer any specific question you have about their differential roles, but you need to pose the question. Also, I'd appreciate your comments on the link.

Either we can have a dialogue or we can't. If we can't have a dialogue on this topic, that's okay. I'll post the bib, anyway.

You still need to answer how you can justify ignoring the grave suffering of the Lithuanian and Polish Christians under the Nazis by pointing to the relative handful of collaborators who cooperated with the Holocaust when you do not ignore the sufferings of the Jews even though there were collaborators among them too.
__________________
Please Patrick. This is ridiculous. Lithuanian Catholics and Polish Catholics murdered Jews. What don't you get?

Of course, I sympathize with those Chrisitans who suffered. Don't play this game of blaming the victims. It's disgraceful. Poland and LIthuania practiced state-sponsored antisemtism, discrimination in every sphere of life up to and including World War II.

YOu also haven't answered my questions about the link. I've written about Ringelbaum, professionally. I think the best way for me to proceed its to give you a bibliography. I can't paste articles; I've tried and they keep getting blocked. I'd be interested in your thoughts on the link I posted.

That is not a bad division because the post-war Poles are so overwhelmingly Catholic (90% per the CIA Factbook). When I wrote the Poles, though, I was including all the people of Poland, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Other and None, as well as the handful of jews that remain. My point remains valid under either interpretation: the Polish Nation, as a whole, would have plenty of cause to remember the Holocaust even if there were no Polish Jews because so many other Poles were slaughtered by the Nazis and their fellow-travelers, the Stalinists during the enormities of WWII.
_______________
No go, Patrick. Your reference to the Polish and the Jews was pre-genocide. The Polish Catholics, the overwhelming majority, did not consider the Jews to be Poles. They still don't want references and quotes? I won't say it would be my pleasure to post on Polish Catholic discrimination against Polish Jews up to and including the Holocaust, throughout the centuries, but I will do it. Frankly, it is upsetting, but if necessary, I'll do it. I gave you a link. Did you read it? YOu wanted "proof." You have it. If you want I'll post a century a day, replete with numerous references.

I'll post Lech Welesa explaining that Jews are not Poles, etc.

The Poles may have good reason to remember Auschwitz in your view, but in theirs building a discoteque a mile a way was how.

Your comments on the link? Much more to come in the way of references. Btw., I'm conducting a study of a group comprising Polish Catholics and Polish Jews trying to communicate. Step one was the nomenclature. That involved facing centuries of antisemitism, mutual accusations, blood libel discussions, etc. Heady and horrible, but except for two people, the group has remained in tact for two years. The key was and is the courage of all to face the truth.

Farnaz,
Instead of addressing my response to your attack on Polish and Lithuanian Catholics--that while the Poles and Lithuanians may have had small numbers who collaborated with the Nazis, so what? So did the Jews (e.g., the Kapos and Jewish Police)--you simply launch into more innuendo:

"RE: Emanuel Ringelblum

I would suggest you read the chronicles yourself. I believe they are on the web. Words taken out of context don't give a fair impression. Obviously."

I took nothing out of context. I supplied the link and quoted the link in a full and fair way.

You still need to answer how you can justify ignoring the grave suffering of the Lithuanian and Polish Christians under the Nazis by pointing to the relative handful of collaborators who cooperated with the Holocaust when you do not ignore the sufferings of the Jews even though there were collaborators among them too.

I believe we must never forget any of the suffering that went on in WWII. Over 50 Million died. And when one looks at the Holocaust specifically, there were about 11 million dead victims of the Holocaust, the majority of whom were Jews but a very significant minority of whom were Christians. Of the 5 Million "Gentile" (in the sense of non-Jewish) victims of the Holocaust, I should think a very large percentage of them were Christian. If you disagree, please state your basis.

Farnaz2 Author Profile Page:

Stephen17 Author Profile Page:

If the Jews are God's chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn't get me.
------------------
Guess what, Stephen17? I think God will be able to do without you.

February 13, 2009 9:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
________________________________
Yes, to worry. NO Jews have every claimed this.
Not a single one.

Farnaz,
Our exchange:

"The Poles would have plenty of reason "never to forget" Oswiecim (Auschwitz) even if the Jews weren't their fellow citizens (and co-victims). The Poles don't want to forget all of that suffering during WWII for that very reason.
________________________
I don't quite follow you terminologically. Whence the dichotomy between "Poles" and "their fellow citizens."

Are you referring to Polish Catholics and Polish Jews? "

That is not a bad division because the post-war Poles are so overwhelmingly Catholic (90% per the CIA Factbook). When I wrote the Poles, though, I was including all the people of Poland, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Other and None, as well as the handful of jews that remain. My point remains valid under either interpretation: the Polish Nation, as a whole, would have plenty of cause to remember the Holocaust even if there were no Polish Jews because so many other Poles were slaughtered by the Nazis and their fellow-travelers, the Stalinists during the enormities of WWII.

Stephen17 Author Profile Page:

>If the Jews are God's chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn't get me.

Not to worry. We only have the Jews' claim for that...

Stephen17 Author Profile Page:

If the Jews are God's chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn't get me.
------------------
Guess what, Stephen17? I think God will be able to do without you.

If the Jews are God's chosen people, then He sure as devil doesn't get me.

PATRICK SARSFIELD:

Here's a link on Poland. References Ringelbaum, btw.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shtetl/relations/polandhistorical.html

PatrickSarsfeld:

The Poles would have plenty of reason "never to forget" Oswiecim (Auschwitz) even if the Jews weren't their fellow citizens (and co-victims). The Poles don't want to forget all of that suffering during WWII for that very reason.
________________________
I don't quite follow you terminologically. Whence the dichotomy between "Poles" and "their fellow citizens."

Are you referring to Polish Catholics and Polish Jews? If so, please explain your terminology, its history, etc. Or I will.

PatrickSarsfield:

RE: Emanuel Ringelblum

I would suggest you read the chronicles yourself. I believe they are on the web. Words taken out of context don't give a fair impression. Obviously.

PatrickSarsfield:

Spare me the ad homs. They get you nowhere. You wanted evidence on the Lithuanian Catholics and you got it. Easier still are the Polish Catholics. Easiest of all, the Lithuanian and Polish Jews, so many of them being so dead, as it were.

If you don't comprehend a point I make why not simply ask me about it, as in, "What do you mean when you say that passing laws against Holocaust Denial...?"

The question for you is what are you defending. There is no winning here, Patrick. The Shoah (= utter waste, devastation) was the culmination of two thousand years of racializing thinking, aided an abetted by modernity and technology.

The only thing we can give ourselves is as much truth as we can find. Will it set us free? No. More is necessary.

Farnaz,
You want me to tackle Poland on my own? ("I would hope that you could tackle Poland on your own, but I will help there as well. Bib will take awhile as I'm updating for a syllabus") I have already done that and put a lot of my findings down in posts you have never addressed.

You also claim that even passing laws against Holocaust denial may really be a form of deception. Wheels within wheels?? I think you are getting twisted up in your own knickers there, Farnaz!

One thing is for sure, quite apart from Jewish deaths in the concentration camps, the Polish Christians suffered millions of their own deaths at the hands of the Nazis (and their erstwhile allies the Russians) during WWII. The Poles would have plenty of reason "never to forget" Oswiecim (Auschwitz) even if the Jews weren't their fellow citizens (and co-victims). The Poles don't want to forget all of that suffering during WWII for that very reason.

Farnaz,
You have pointed to some Wiki articles that show that a small portion of Lithuanians participated in the Holocaust("Out of a population of close to 3,000,000, (80% of it ethnic Lithuanians),[21] only a few tens of thousands took an active part in the killings "). I am not at all surprised. As I mentioned there wre collaborators in every nation, including the Jews of Europe. Even if one assumes there were as many as three tens of thousands of Lithuanian killers, that represents 1% of the Lithuanians. And 30,000 seems an awful lot of Lithuanian killers to kill off 195,000 Jews particularly when most of the killing was being done by German Einsatzgruppen.

In all events, the killing of Jews by Nazis was aided not only by Lithuanians but by the Jewish Police (Jüdische Ghetto-Polizei, Jüdischer Ordnungsdienst) and the (often self-hating Jewish) Kapos. Here are Wiki articles on them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Ghetto_Police
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp)

Interestingly, as the Wikipedia article notes, The Polish-Jewish historian and Warsaw Ghetto archivist Emanuel Ringelblum has described the cruelty of the ghetto police as "at times greater than that of the Germans, the Ukrainians and the Latvians." Notice, the Lithuanians didn't even make that particular hall of shame!

REPASTED FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE, PATRICK.

Farnaz2 Author Profile Page:

PatrickSarsfield:

PART I:

Again, I've posted countless bibliographies that have included texts with photographs of local Lithuanian and Polish Catholics slaughtering Lithuanian and Polish Jews, respectively. I will be happy to post yet another bibliography. However, as an adult and internet adept, you can surely discover whether there is any merit to what I say all by your lonesome, thus removing doubts which in 2009, I find incomprehensible. Nevertheless, to show you how simple it all truly is, I am giving you a link to Wikipedia, and shall even cut and paste relevant sections for you.

I would hope that you could tackle Poland on your own, but I will help there as well. Bib will take awhile as I'm updating for a syllabus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_in_Lithuania

LITHUANIA

Participation of local populace
1941 Nazi propaganda antisemitic "Jewish Bolshevism" poster in Lithuanian language equating Stalinism and Jews[d]

While the Nazi German administration directed and supported the organized killing of Lithuanian Jews, most of the logistics for the preparation and execution of the murders was carried out by local Lithuanian auxiliaries of the Nazi occupation regime.[2][7][15] Nazi SS Brigadeführer Franz Walter Stahlecker arrived in Kaunas on 25 June 1941 and gave agitation speeches in the city to instigate the murder of Jews. Initially this was in the former State Security Department building, but officials there refused to take any action. Later, he gave speeches in the city.[16] In a report of October 15, Stahlecker wrote that they had succeeded in covering up their vanguard unit (Vorkommando) actions, and it was made to look like it was the initiative of the local population.[17] Groups of partisans, civil units of nationalist-rightist anti-Soviet affiliation, initiated contact with the Germans as soon as they entered the Lithuanian territories.[7] A rogue unit of insurgents headed by Algirdas Klimaitis and encouraged by Germans from the Sicherheitspolizei and Sicherheitsdienst, started anti-Jewish pogroms in Kaunas (Kovno) on the night of 25 June-26 June 1941 in which over a thousand Jews perished over the next few days in what was the first pogrom in Nazi-occupied Lithuania.[5][18][17] Different sources give different figures, one being 1,500[5] and another 3,800, with additional victims in other towns of the region.[18]
German soldiers and locals watch a Lithuanian synagogue burn, 9 July 1941

On 24 June 1941, the Lithuanian Security Police (Lietuvos saugumo policija), subordinate to Nazi Germany's Security Police and Nazi Germany's Criminal Police, was created. It would be involved in various actions against the Jews and other enemies of the Nazi regime.[19] Nazi commanders filed reports purporting the "zeal" of the Lithuanian police battalions surpassed their own.[14] The most notorious Lithuanian unit participating in the Holocaust was the Lithuanian Sonderkommando Squad (Ypatingasis būrys) from the Vilnius (Vilna, Wilno) area which killed tens of thousands of Jews, Poles and others in Paneriai (the Ponary massacre) and other places.[19][11][12] Another Lithuanian organization involved in the Holocaust was the Lithuanian Labor Guard.[7] Many Lithuanian supporters of the Nazi policies came from the fascist Iron Wolf organization.[2] Overall, the nationalistic Lithuanian administration was interested in the liquidation of the Jews as a perceived enemy and potential rivals of ethnic Lithuanians and thus not only did not oppose Nazi Holocaust policy but in effect adopted it as their own.[13]

LITHUANIA CONTINUED

A combination of factors serves as an explanation for participation of some Lithuanians in genocide against Jews.[9] Those factors include national traditions and values, including anti-semitism, common throughout contemporary Central Europe, and a more Lithuanian-specific desire for a "pure" Lithuanian nation-state with which the Jewish population was believed to be incompatible.[2]) Additional factors were religion (Orthodox Catholic), severe economic problems (leading to killing of Jews over personal property) and opposed political orientations (support of the Soviet regime in Lithuania during 1940-1941 by Lithuanian Jews)[d].[9][2][15] During the period leading up to the German invasion, the Jews were blamed by some for virtually every misfortune that had befallen Lithuania.[2][15]

LITHUANIA CONTINUED

The involvement of the local population and institutions, in relatively high numbers, in the destruction of Lithuanian Jewry became a defining factor of the Holocaust in Lithuania.[7][2][15] Not all of the Lithuanian populace supported the killings.[20] Out of a population of close to 3,000,000, (80% of it ethnic Lithuanians),[21] only a few tens of thousands took an active part in the killings while many hundreds risked their lives sheltering the Jews.[9] Israel has recognized 723 Lithuanians as “Righteous Among the Nations” for risking their lives to save Jews during the Holocaust).[22][9][23][2] In addition, many members of the Polish minority in Lithuania also helped to shelter the Jews.[20] Lithuanians and Poles who risked their lives saving Jews were persecuted and often executed by the Nazis.[24]

[edit] Comprehension and remembrance

PatrickSarsfield:

PART I:

Again, I've posted countless bibliographies that have included texts with photographs of local Lithuanian and Polish Catholics slaughtering Lithuanian and Polish Jews, respectively. I will be happy to post yet another bibliography. However, as an adult and internet adept, you can surely discover whether there is any merit to what I say all by your lonesome, thus removing doubts which in 2009, I find incomprehensible. Nevertheless, to show you how simple it all truly is, I am giving you a link to Wikipedia, and shall even cut and paste relevant sections for you.

I would hope that you could tackle Poland on your own, but I will help there as well. Bib will take awhile as I'm updating for a syllabus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_in_Lithuania

Geseke writes:
"The Soviet Union later admitted that they had lied at the Nuremberg IMT about the Katyn Forest. In any other trial, that would have been enough to declare a mistrial and throw out everything that was "proved" at Nuremberg."

I doubt you ever prosecuted a case if you think a case will be thrown out because someone (who wasn't even a witness) later recants with respect to a rather collateral matter. Katyn, although a heinous offense in its own right and one that needs more notoriety in the US, was not a central issue in the Nuremberg Trials. So even if the Russians did lie about that, the convictions of such monsters as Hermann Goering would not have been overturned. I hope you are not an apologist for the Nazi War Criminals, btw.

CCNL Author Profile Page:

>Hmmm, Yael aka Farnaz aka Observer12 aka Observer31 noted: "Farnaz has quit this blog, and with my last post, you are now officially Judenfrei. Congratulations. " This statement was made 02/09/09.

So who is the Farnaz who made the commentaries below???

The eternal, schizo-affective Jew. Clearly a case of identity theft.

patricksarsfield wrote:

"Fifteen thousand or so Polish officers were then massacred by Joe Stalin's NKVD in the Katyn Forest."

===========

At the Nuremberg IMT, the Soviet Union charged the Germans with killing the Polish officers at Katyn Forest. The Germans produced evidence which proved that they had not killed the Polish officers and an American POW, whom they had taken with them to see the evidence at Katyn Forest, testified as a defense witness for the Nazis on trial.

The Soviet Union later admitted that they had lied at the Nuremberg IMT about the Katyn Forest. In any other trial, that would have been enough to declare a mistrial and throw out everything that was "proved" at Nuremberg.

I meant to say the Polish Home Army, but I wrote Polish Army by mistake. Here is a quote from Wikipedia about the Home Army:

The Armia Krajowa (the Home Army, literally translated as the Country's Army), abbreviated "AK", was the dominant Polish resistance movement in World War II German-occupied Poland. It was formed in February 1942 from the Związek Walki Zbrojnej (Union for Armed Struggle) and over the next two years absorbed most other Polish underground forces. It was loyal to the Polish government in exile and constituted the armed wing of what became known as the "Polish Underground State". Estimates of its membership in 1944 range from 200,000 to 600,000, with the most common number being 400,000; that figure would make it not only the largest Polish underground resistance movement but one the two largest in Europe during World War II.[a] It was disbanded on January 20, 1945, when Polish territory had largely been cleared of German forces by the advancing Soviet Red Army.

The AK's primary resistance operations were the sabotage of German activities, including transports headed for the Eastern Front in the Soviet Union. The AK also fought several full-scale battles against the Germans, particularly in 1943 and 1944 during Operation Tempest, thereby tying down significant German forces, diverting much-needed supplies, while trying to support Soviet military. The most widely known AK operation was the failed Warsaw Uprising. The AK also defended Polish civilians against atrocities committed by non-German military organizations such as the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and the Lithuanian Security Police. The Armia Krajowa, due to its ties with the Polish government in exile, was viewed by the Soviet Union as a major obstacle to its takeover of the country, which lead to increasing conflict between AK and Soviet forces both during and after the war. Armia Krajowa, seen in modern Poland as a heroic resistance, has occasionally been the subject of controversy, portrayed more critically in the Soviet Union
End Quote

The Majdanek camp was filled with captured partisans from the Home Army. The largest group of prisoners at Dachau when it was liberated were Polish Catholics who were captured partisans. They were also Polish partisans imprisoned at Buchenwald. The Nazis killed the Poles because they were the enemy in war time, not because they were Untermenschen.

Geseke,
You assert:

"The Nazis killed Poles, but not because they were Poles or Slavic or Catholics. Poland never surrendered in World War II. The Polish Army escaped to Romania and the Polish government escaped to England where they set up a government in exile. The Poles continued to fight on the side of the Allies throughout World War II, but not on the battlefield, until the Soviet soldiers reached Poland. Then they joined the Soviets in fighting on the battlefield. "

Your facts are inaccurate in several respects. As to thre reason the Nazis killed the Poles (and other Slavs) in far heavier numbers than they killed Western Europeans, it was because they considered them (and other Slavs)untermenschen, not because they did not like their breaths.

On your WWII History: the Polish Army did not escape to Romania, small elements of it escaped. Much of the Polish Army died on the field or was captured by either Hitler's forces or Stalin's forces. Fifteen thousand or so Polish officers were then massacred by Joe Stalin's NKVD in the Katyn Forest. Many other Poles captured by the Bolsheviks ended up spending years in the Siberian Gulag until Uncle Joe was betrayed by Gospodin Adolph on Jumne 22, 1941. At that point, the Russians realized they would be better off freeing the Poles and their guards to fight Hitler. Many of the Poles would not fight with the Russians and demanded that they be allowed to hook up with the British and fight in N. Africa. That is where Anders's Army came from. Other Poles, though, did fight with the Russians from the time the Nazis were storming the "Rodina" all the way to Berlin.

As to the Poles "not fighting on the battlefield until the Russians reached Poland," that is just WRONG. The Poles who fought with Russia started out fighting in Russia. And the Poles who fought in the West in 1940 and in North Africa, Italy, France, Holland and Germany throughout the rest of the War started off their renewed resistance to Nazidom as soon as the Sitzkrieg turned into Blitzkrieg in April 1940 with the Invasion of Norway. Also: many of the Allied fighters in the Battle of Britain were staffed by members of the Polish Air Force.

The significant contributions of the Free Polish Armed Forces have largely been forgotten in the West for a very good reason: Roosevelt and Churchill decided to sell out the Free Poles at Yalta, and so it has been as though they never existed. There is a very good book by the US Ambassador to Poland from 1944-1947 (Lane) on the way we let the Free Poles be marginalized by Joe Stalin and his accomplices. Poland should have had an honored place in the Victory Celebrations of 1945, but was instead sold down the Vistula.

Farnaz,
I challenged you to name the facts for your innuendos about the Christians of the eight countries I mentioned. We are discussing Lithuania and Poland separately, as to the rest, you have offered no support whatsoever. Instead, you bring up this irrelevant (to our discussion) example:
"As for other countries, events such as Babiyar in Ukraine, the documentation is enormous. I'm neither "making innuendo" nor "making accusations." I'm stating facts."

The Ukraine is not one of the countries we were discussing.

Farnaz,
You argue:

"Your sweeping generalizations are simply incorrect. For example, it is true that millions of Polish Catholics were killed by the nazis. It is also true that POlish Catholics actively collaborated with the Nazis, informing them who was and wasn't Jewish, torturing and killing Jews themselves."

And European Jews also actively collaborated with the Nazis (the Kapos and Jewish Police), so what is your point??

Farnaz,
Our exchange:

"PatrickSarsfield: Poland and Lithuania for example also offered up millions of christians who got killed in the Death Camps and by the mobile death trucks, and the Poles gave hundreds of thousands of others who fought bravely for the Allies throughout WWII and were left exiles when the US and Britain cruelly sol their interests out to Uncle oe Stalin at the End of WWII.
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Where are you saying the "mobile death trucks" were? And where were "millions of christians" killed? Also, what kinds of Christians? ORdinary men, women, and children? What do you mean about "fighting bravely for the allies"?"

There were mobile death trucks unleashed by the Nazis on the Catholic peasantry of Lithuania, among other targets. For example, my grand mother worked with a Lithuanian Catholic woman many members of whose family perished in sweeps done by the Nazis' mobile death trucks who sought to eliminate as many Slavic "untermenschen" as they could.

And as far as the bravery of the Poles who continued to fight for the Allies despite the loss of their homeland, don't you know about the Polish Army's roles in Narvik, North Africa, Italy (where they assaulted Monte Cassino and planted their standard on that site in May 1944), the Falaise Pocket, the final (essentially suicidal) assault on Arnhem Bridge (by the Polish Parachute Brigade)?

Then there were the Poles who had been taken prisoner by the Soviets when they shared with Hitler in the 1939 partitioning of Poland? To the degree they survived the Stalinist Pogrom in the Katyn Forest and the rigors of the Siberian concentrattion camps until the 1941 falling out between Hitler and Stalin, many of them ended up fighting again for the Allied Cause!

Don't you know about the participation of the Polish Navy in such battles as the Evacuation from Dunkirk? Or of the participation of the Polish Home Army (the famous AK) who rose magnificently on Aug. 1, 1944 but who the Stalinists let be slaughtered by the Nazis. Essentially, the Soviet Communists stood on the Eastern Side of the Vistula for weeks to allow the Nazis to kill the Polish Freedom fighters with impunity.

A lot of suffering and death went on in WWII. Over 50 million were killed, including 3 Million Polish Jews and 3 Million Polish Christians.

plaza04433 wrote:

Geseke wrote:
"There is too much evidence and it is not all in one place. Bishop Williamson has promised to recant as soon as he reviews the evidence"

Perhaps you and Bishop Williamson and should start here:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/NT_major-war-criminals.html

and here:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/

and here:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/

==============

Thanks for the links. I have bookmarked all of them.

I am not a chemist like Rudolf, nor a gas chamber consultant like Leuchter, but I do have eyes to see with and brain to think with.

There are several things that are suspicious to me:

1. The Nazis returned to Birkenau several days after they had abandoned the camp and blew up the gas chambers, even though they risked being killed because Soviet soldiers were already in the area. Yet, when they abandoned the Dachau camp, they left the gas chamber intact, even though they knew that American soldiers were on their way. They tried to fool the Americans into thinking that the gas chamber was a shower room by putting soap and towels in the undressing room, along with a vase of flowers.

2. The main gas chamber at Majdanek has heavy Prussian Blue stains on the walls. We now know that 59,000 Jews died at Majdanek, so we have a visual reference for how much staining would be caused by gassing 59,000 people. Several people, including Fred Leuchter and Germar Rudolf have climbed down into the ruins of the Krema II gas chamber at Birkenau where 500,000 Jews were allegedly gassed. Yet, their photos show no Prussian Blue stains visible on the walls of this gas chamber. There should be 10 times the amount of Prussian Blue stains on the walls of Krmea II as on the walls of the main Majdanek gas chamber.

Geseke:

There were a few Poles who went from village to village and killed the Jews. The most famous of these pogroms was at Jedwabne. There was also a Polish unit in the Waffen-SS - hard to believe, but true.
________________
NOt hard to believe, given that this is only a small part of it. Not hard to believe, but tragic. Consider events when survivors returned from the camps: Just one small example.

Don't forget, however, that there was a Polish Catholic Underground. There, too, however, things were far from okay with respect to Polish Jews.

There is no joy in recounting any of this. No gotcha. It is a horrible episode--the Shoah. Says very little about the possibility of human progress.

Points to Ponder:
1) Freedom of speech is certainly an essential element to the discussion of truth; On the other hand, individual opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.
a) Like "armchair coaches" who can tell how they would deliver a perfectly played football game by merely being a fan and watching the tv, some actually think commenting to a bystander on a situation is the same as participation.
b) One wise friend reminded me once that "If you point at someone in accusation, three fingers point back at you." Is it a sign of the times that we tend to attack participators?
c) This same friend also stated that "One can make no mistakes when one does nothing." Is blogging the same as effecting progress?
d) Is it all that suprising that negative comments come from people who already don't like the participants in a given situation?
2) Are community matters subject to "Just Another Teen Movie" perogatives? For example, the Holy Father can't talk to "them" because I don't like "them"?

To Farnaz2 and PatrickSarsfield:

The Nazis killed Poles, but not because they were Poles or Slavic or Catholics. Poland never surrendered in World War II. The Polish Army escaped to Romania and the Polish government escaped to England where they set up a government in exile. The Poles continued to fight on the side of the Allies throughout World War II, but not on the battlefield, until the Soviet soldiers reached Poland. Then they joined the Soviets in fighting on the battlefield.

According to the rules of the 1929 Geneva Convention, some Poles were fighting as illegal combatants and the Nazis were allowed to execute them if they were captured. The Poles who were put into concentration camps were put there because they had been fighting as partisans, including the Polish priests. Since then, the rules of the Geneva Convention have changed and the Polish Home Army, which fought as Partisans, might be considered legal combatants.

There were a few Poles who went from village to village and killed the Jews. The most famous of these pogroms was at Jedwabne. There was also a Polish unit in the Waffen-SS - hard to believe, but true.

The first prisoners sent to the Auschwitz main camp were Polish partisans. The first prisoners sent to Birkenau were Soviet POWs. There were also Jewish partisans hiding in the forests and fighting the Nazis by blowing up trains and ambushing German soldiers.

STADTBEAR wrote, regarding the autopsies done by Dr. Larson at Dachau.

"Well of course not! The gas chamber at Dachau, which was installed as a hail-Mary effort by the Nazis at the near end of the war, was never used. Nobody was ever gassed at Dachau, thanks to the end of the war."

==================

The gas chamber at Dachau was in existence for two years before the end of the war. The Nazis could have blown up the building or modified the gas chamber to change it into something else, but they didn't; they left the gas chamber intact as evidence.

The only evidence submitted at Nuremberg as "proof" of the gas chambers was an hour-long film made by the US military which included some footage of the gas chamber at Dachau. Dr. Franz Blaha, a prisoner at Dachau, signed an affidavit on the same day that the gas chamber was filmed and it was entered at Nuremberg. Dr. Blaha testified that he had done numerous autopsies at Dachau which showed that people had been gassed, but the autopsies themselves were not submitted as evidence.

For years, the staff at the Dachau memorial site said that the gas chamber was never used, but now they are saying that it was used a few times. The film that includes the gas chamber footage is shown every half hour at Dachau, but visitors are not allowed to see the gas pipes and control wheels that are shown in the film.

So it turns out that the best evidence of a hoax is the American-made film footage about the Dachau gas chamber and Dr. Blaha's affidavit entered at Nuremberg. The next best evidence of a hoax is the gas chamber in the main camp at Auschwitz. From 1947 to around 2000, the tour guides lied to visitors and told them that the gas chamber was original. Only in the last few years have visitors been told that it is a reconstruction.

More evidence of a hoax is the charge made by the Soviet Union that 1.5 million people were murdered at Majdanek. Now the Memorial site at Majdanek says that there were only 59,000 Jews who died of all causes at Majdanek. Raul Hilberg wrote, long before the memorial site changed the numbers, that 50,000 Jews had died at Majdanek. If Hilberg knew the approximate number, why did the Soviet Union overestimate the numbers so badly? The Soviet Union charged the Nazis with killing 4 million people at Auschwitz, based on no evidence at all. Now the number is down to 1.1 million.

If the rules of law had been used at Nuremberg, all the evidence would have to be thrown out because the rule of law is "False in one, false in all."

PatrickSarsfield:

Poland and Lithuania for example also offered up millions of christians who got killed in the Death Camps and by the mobile death trucks, and the Poles gave hundreds of thousands of others who fought bravely for the Allies throughout WWII and were left exiles when the US and Britain cruelly sol their interests out to Uncle oe Stalin at the End of WWII.
_______________
Where are you saying the "mobile death trucks" were? And where were "millions of christians" killed? Also, what kinds of Christians? ORdinary men, women, and children? What do you mean about "fighting bravely for the allies"?

PatrickSarsfield:

I'm not "making innuendos." I'm stating facts and have also supported them by posting lengthy bibliographies throughout this blog. Your sweeping generalizations are simply incorrect. For example, it is true that millions of Polish Catholics were killed by the nazis. It is also true that POlish Catholics actively collaborated with the Nazis, informing them who was and wasn't Jewish, torturing and killing Jews themselves.

Cases of Polish Catholics killing Polish Jews in the most horrid ways imaginable just in advance of the Nazi onslaught are legion.

As for other countries, events such as Babiyar in Ukraine, the documentation is enormous. I'm neither "making innuendo" nor "making accusations." I'm stating facts.

Does this mean that no Catholics or Christians suffered persecution? Of course not. HOwever that is not the topic.

Quite frankly, I fail to see your point. Again, I've posted the names of tons of books, articles, web sites, etc. If you would like me to do so again, say the word, and I will do so in a couple of days, when I have time.

I don't understand what your argument is.

My exchange with Farnaz,
"PatrickSarsfield writes:

"Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland."

Interestingly, Catholics constitute a majority of the population in 8 of the 13 countries (Austria, Belgium, France, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland and Portugal) and a plurality in two more (the Czech Republic and Switzerland). Yet even after pointing that out, some of the more convinced conspiracy nuts will probably still think that Pope Benedict is trying to get the laws changed to make the World safe for SSPXers
_________________________________
I don't know of anyone who thinks this of Pope Benedict. As for the countries you mention, it might be useful to you to do a bit of research on the degrees of involvement these nations had with the Shoah, subsequent profiteering, and current antisemitism. "

You are long on innuendo and short on facts. If you want to make charges, please do so. Don't just label whole countries complicit as though the story of what was done to the Christians within their borders by the Nazis is not also a horror show that we need never forget either. Poland and Lithuania for example also offered up millions of christians who got killed in the Death Camps and by the mobile death trucks, and the Poles gave hundreds of thousands of others who fought bravely for the Allies throughout WWII and were left exiles when the US and Britain cruelly sol their interests out to Uncle oe Stalin at the End of WWII.

cacxo Author Profile Page:

I suspect it might actually be jealousy, on Williamson's part. If he is the kind of person who uses suffering as means for personal gain (through sympathy), then he's jealous of dead jews, and he won't let go that easily.
______________________________
Can you clarify this please? What do the kinds of people you mention have to do with the Holocaust? As for "dead jews" (sic), there are, of course, many of them. NOt all of them died in the Holocaust.

Notice too, that he doesn't deny American slavery, the Christian martyrs, etc.

Awaiting your reply....

Folks,
Plaza,who isn't even Catholic, continues to insist when corrected by me:

"As for indulgences, I never said they were eliminated. They were ignored and forgotten since Vat.II -at least until now."

Still WRONG. I was a Catholic before during and after Vatican II and throughout the succeeding forty four years. At no point during that time were "indulgences" ignored and forgotten by me or by many other Catholics whom I know.

I can't speak for all Catholics, of course, but neither can Plaza, unless.... Maybe Plaza has done some mindscan survey of Catholics (perhaps with a ring decoder?) that can establish that some of us may have ignored indulgences? I await his/her data, if that is the case.

I suspect it might actually be jealousy, on Williamson's part. If he is the kind of person who uses suffering as means for personal gain (through sympathy), then he's jealous of dead jews, and he won't let go that easily.

Two things.

1) What exactly is it that Christianity drums into our heads over all else it might say? I think that we can agree that the major statement of Christianity is that Christ is the son of God and that he came here to die for our sins. With that established in our minds, what difference is it how Christ died? In fact, being the son of God would he not have planned his death? Furthermore, what more fitting way to die than dying on the cross, providing millions down through the centuries with a fitting symbol to wear around their necks (I mean the crucifix). Finally, how exactly is it then that the Jews are considered evil for having killed Christ, supposing they did so in the first place? All clear now? Thank you.

2) I have no idea what to make of those people who not only deny the holocaust occurred, but say that the Jews falsified such, created all the documents, etc. You mean the same Jews that had been persecuted since the 1930's in Germany and were thinking of a way out before anything else? These Jews skulked around Germany all through the terrible war falsifying a holocaust? Wake up and see the light. Return to point number one made above read over and read number two again then return to point number one above.

Geseke wrote:

>There were autopsies conducted at Dachau by a U.S. Army doctor, but none showed that the person had been gassed.

Well of course not! The gas chamber at Dachau, which was installed as a hail-Mary effort by the Nazis at the near end of the war, was never used. Nobody was ever gassed at Dachau, thanks to the end of the war.

Hmmm, Yael aka Farnaz aka Observer12 aka Observer31 noted: "Farnaz has quit this blog, and with my last post, you are now officially Judenfrei. Congratulations. " This statement was made 02/09/09.

So who is the Farnaz who made the commentaries below???

Hard evidence would be something tangible that one can touch, such as a document signed by Hitler in which he ordered the genocide of the Jews. Or records which show that 6 million Jews died. If this evidence were available, there would be no Holocaust deniers.
______________________
Forensic evidence is, by definition, evidence that is usable in court. The number of archival documents on Jews exterminated by travelling gas vans, shooting, gasing at exterminatin camps, burning in buildings, starvation, Mengele type surgeries, experimentation, etc., is in the tens of thousands. This is all over the web, in countless articles, books, etc. There are bones, skulls, hair, mass burial sites such as Babiyar. There are collections of documents available in libraries all over the world. There is trial testimony on the web.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of posting bibliographies. It's tiresome and silly.

The numbers of persons who stated that slavery in America was a benign institution, that there were no floggings, no rapes, no incest,no starvation, no "breeding," no murders, etc. was huge.
There are always deniers and as Frederick Douglass, and William Lloyd Garrison frequently remarked, the deniers are those who make community with the perpetrators.

The discussion has revealed what was easily anticipated, not merely holocaust denial, but overt antisemitism, unsurprising since the former is part and parcel of the latter.

Of course, racism says nothing about the target, and everything about the racist. Racists are both dangerous and pitiable. Thankfully, some have been known to find their way back to the community of decent people, and we can only wish that all may finally do so. What they are doing now is adding insult to one of the worst injuries of history.

Geseke wrote:
"There is too much evidence and it is not all in one place. Bishop Williamson has promised to recant as soon as he reviews the evidence"

Perhaps you and Bishop Williamson and should start here:
http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/NT_major-war-criminals.html

and here:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/

and here:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/

To STADTBEAR and FARNAZ2:

There are "ash pits" at Birkenau, but is there enough ashes for 1.5 million bodies? There was testimony that some of the ashes were thrown into the Sola river and some were put into urns and then hauled away in trucks, but there is no proof of this. There is a huge pile of ashes at Majdanek, but now the Museum there says that the number of deaths from all causes was 78,000 including 59,000 Jews. The ashes from 1.5 million people would be enormous if the Majdanek ashes are from 78,000 people. There is no forensic report that proves that these are human ashes and not the ashes from the stoves in the camp.

Forensic evidence would be something like an autopsy report that showed that the person had died of Zyklon-B poisoning. There were autopsies conducted at Dachau by a U.S. Army doctor, but none showed that the person had been gassed. The most important forensic evidence that is missing is a report that shows that enough residue of Zyklon-B was found on the walls of the gas chambers to prove that people were gassed there.

Hard evidence would be something tangible that one can touch, such as a document signed by Hitler in which he ordered the genocide of the Jews. Or records which show that 6 million Jews died. If this evidence were available, there would be no Holocaust deniers.

patricksarsfield wrote:
"If anyone is in a cult, it is someone who follows Luther, not the majority of christians who follow the Church Jesus founded in the First Century AD,.."

First,let me disabuse you of the notion I follow Luther, or any other part of the noxious brew flowing from the Judaic/Christian/Moslem trinity of Abrahamic superstitions.

Second, I doubt the Eastern Church would agree with your statement about THE first century Church.

As for indulgences, I never said they were eliminated. They were ignored and forgotten since Vat.II -at least until now.

""Book IV, Title IV, Chapter IV
Can. 992 An indulgence is the remission in the sight of God of the temporal punishment due for sins, the guilt of which has already been forgiven. A member of Christ's faithful who is properly disposed and who fulfils certain specific conditions, may gain an indulgence by the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, authoritatively dispenses and applies the treasury of the merits of Christ and the Saints.""

James 4:12'
"There is only one judge and law-giver, even he who has the power of salvation and of destruction; but who are you to be your neighbour's judge?"

Well, in light of the church's ability to titrate the eternal fate of its followers via 'indulgence', so much for the "only one judge" theme!

The Roman Church is a cult. I agree with you and will not dispute and that there are other Christian cults.

Geseke writes:

" There is no hard evidence and no forensic evidence."

Actually, there is a substantial amount of "hard" and "forensic" evidence to be found in the pits full of human ash behind each of the crematory sites at Auschwitz.

NRGLAW:

"But the huge reservoir of anti-Semitism in this enlightened country is a disturbing fact that the On Faith postings serves to highlight."
____________________
This is very much the point, and what is worse, attempting to combat it is seen as "tasteless." There is, however, something to be gained for anyone interested in cultural studies, that is for anyone who believes that the data this site consistently provides on the reality of antisemitism may be put to constructive use.

PatrickSarsfield writes:

"Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland."

Interestingly, Catholics constitute a majority of the population in 8 of the 13 countries (Austria, Belgium, France, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland and Portugal) and a plurality in two more (the Czech Republic and Switzerland). Yet even after pointing that out, some of the more convinced conspiracy nuts will probably still think that Pope Benedict is trying to get the laws changed to make the World safe for SSPXers
_________________________________
I don't know of anyone who thinks this of Pope Benedict. As for the countries you mention, it might be useful to you to do a bit of research on the degrees of involvement these nations had with the Shoah, subsequent profiteering, and current antisemitism.

Holocaust denial is a form of antisemitism. That is the issue. However, laws against it occasionally serve as a defensive ploy against evidenced-based allegations of racism.

EJ--On Faith has now posted a question and your article on Williamson. Both produced a torrent of anti-Judaic sentimeent. That is the real story here. What Williamson says is, as Cohen suggests, neither here nor there. But the huge reservoir of anti-Semitism in this enlightened country is a disturbing fact that the On Faith postings serves to highlight.

Thank you for your post.

Arminius points out that there are 13 countries in which Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal:

"Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland."

Interestingly, Catholics constitute a majority of the population in 8 of the 13 countries (Austria, Belgium, France, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland and Portugal) and a plurality in two more (the Czech Republic and Switzerland). Yet even after pointing that out, some of the more convinced conspiracy nuts will probably still think that Pope Benedict is trying to get the laws changed to make the World safe for SSPXers

One last bit of info. worthy of mention. Williamson, he who also avers that 9/11 was an inside job, was a guest of Irving.

Geseke writes:

" There is no hard evidence and no forensic evidence."

There is overwhelming "hard evidence" as well as "forensic evidence."

Forensic evidence is evidence usuable in court. Shoah evidence has been used in court.
_________________________

There is an enormous amount of documentary evidence, including "forensic evidence," some of which is on display in Museums in the United States. Tons and tons of photographs and films courtesy primarily of various nazis in different positions, e.g., einzatzgruppen, regular soldiers, camp officials, gheott personnel, human experimenters, et al. Perpetrators in different countries, not officially nazis, also left evidence, including records of numbers killed.

Other kinds of "forensic evidence" is tons and tons of human hair on display at various locations, letters, memos, reports on numbers of Jews killed, medical "experiments" on human subjects, on zones as they became Judenrein, etc. There are as well the actual camp sites, some of which, of course, are still in tact, mass graves such as BabiYar, bones, skulls, etc.
_____________________________

As for Deborah Lipstadt, she did not coin the term "Holocaust Denial," but wrote a book titled "Denying the Holocaust." David Irving sued her for libel and lost the case.

There are many excellent sites on Holocaust denial, always construed to be a form of antisemitism.

This is a comprehensive site, published by a rather esteemed entity. There, are, however, more recent sites easily accessed:

http://www.jpr.org.uk/Reports/CS_Reports/no_3_2000/index.htm

>The list of Ratzinger's efforts to swing the Church back to medieval times is long. In fact, just last week we saw the re-emergence the of "indulgences" which caused Luther to defect.

Actually, Luther did not oppose indulgences per se; he railed against the SALE of indulgences. As a consequence, the idea of indulgences fell into disrepute, and it was JohnPaul II who began to revive the practice of GIVING indulgences.

But the whole idea of indulgences at all is just another bizarre figment of Roman Catholicism, the most superstitious and un-Christian of all Christian denominations. This pope, who was touted as an extremely well-educated and intellectual man, has not shown that he deserves that reputation. He has shown that he has no rapport with people, that he is an old-school German who stubbornly and pedantically demands blind obedience to medieval values. He is, thankfully, making the RCC daily less relevant. I say more power to him. Let him raize the whole bloody thing to the ground. It has almost nothing to do with the teachings of Christ anyway. It has earned oblivion.

Xavisev wrote:

"Who defines what so-called Holocaust denial is???

Is doubting the tossed about figure of 6 million JEWS
considered denial? It would seem minimization or trivialization might be a better word.

Is INCLUDING the number of non-Jewish victims considered denial as well? Is the Holocaust a registered
trademark (TM)?

Is wondering about the reliability of some of the testimony of certain eyewitnesses denial too?

Is asking about denial a form of denial?"

===============

Deborah Lipstadt, a history professor at Emory University, made up the term "Holocaust denial" and then wrote a book about it. She named all the important deniers and said that David Irving was the most dangerous of all because he "falsified history." The way that he falsified history was to translate German works exactly according to their meaning in a German dictionary from the 1930s. However, the Nazis always used code works and euphemisms in their documents and speeches. Irving sued Deborah Lipstadt for libel and the judge ruled that she was correct that Irving had falsified history because of his literal translations of German words.

The Holocaust is defined as Nazi Germany's systematic plan to exterminate all the Jews in the world, on the orders of Adolf Hitler, which resulted in the deaths of 6 million Jews, mostly in gas chambers.

Denying any of these points (systematic, plan, exterminate, Hitler's orders, 6 million or the gas chambers) is Holocaust denial. The word exterminate is used because it is the English translation of the German word "ausrotten." David Irving translated "ausrotten" according to a 1935 German dictionary which difined it as "to get rid of, or to root out." That made him a dangerous denier, according to Deborah Lipstadt.

The Holocaust with a capital H is a registered trademark. The 5 million non Jews who were killed by the Nazis are not included in the Holocaust. The number of 5 million non-Jews is an estimate by Simon Wiesenthal, the famous Nazis hunter who was a survivor of several camps. He said that he made up this number because people wouldn't believe that 6 million Jews were killed unless they were told that 5 million non Jews were killed.

Wondering about the reliability of the eye-witnesses or the hearsay testimony of witnesses is definitely denial. The proof of the Holocaust is in the testimony. There is no hard evidence and no forensic evidence.

Asking about denial is not denial.

October10S wrote:

"denying the deaths of millions of jews (which is uncontravertable fact supported by too much evidence to catalogue in one place)"

Maybe that is the problem. There is too much evidence and it is not all in one place. Bishop Williamson has promised to recant as soon as he reviews the evidence. Could you please tell us where the evidence of the 6 million Jewish deaths is kept? And also, where is the forensic report that proves the existence of the gas chambers.

The latest news is that the Bishop is going to be prosecuted in Argentina where he could be facing three years in prison, and he is already under investigation in Germany where he could be imprisoned for five years. He might be looking at 8 years in prison if he doesn't find the evidence soon.

There is nothing wrong with freedom of speech. But speech reflects thought, and your thoughts reflect your character. Holocaust deniers have fundamentally flawed character. To equate denying gravity (something that no one could prove unequivocally at the time) with denying the deaths of millions of jews (which is uncontravertable fact supported by too much evidence to catalogue in one place) doesn't call into question the fact, it calls in question the questioner. It's not what he's saying, it's why he is saying it. The Bible says though shalt not lie. This Bishop spread vile, insidious lies. That's un-Christian, let alone un-Catholic. But Benedict, being the ham fisted albatross that he is, could care less what the effects of his edicts are. He just doesn't care who he offends. He has failed to recognize that the days of just accepting what the Church teaches on blind faith are long past. Only the brain-dead do that now. The rest of us scrutinize and question the church, and more and more of us are finding it seriously wanting.

When Benedict was elected Pope, I hoped against hope that he would rise above his reputation and at least do no harm to the church. Unfortunately, he has been even worse than expected. In his short tenure he has offended and alienated Muslims and Jews the world over, not to mention millions and millions of centrist Catholics. He clearly bends to the extreme right of the Catholic church. It would not surprise me if he is Opus Dei himself. But whatever he is, he is an unqualified DISASTER for the church, and one very large nail in the coffin of a dying faith. I can only hope that his tenure will be short, and reasonable minds will take over.

you are spending all this energy one one man and a pop that wants peace, when there are over ONE BILLION ISLAMIC WHO DENY IT DAILY!
are you that nuts.
take on the real threat to jews - and christians and hindu's - ISLAM - WHO WANT YOU DEAD, TORTURED OR CONVERTED AND NOTHING LESS THAN THAT WILL DO.
so why are you so upset over one bishop, who cant tell anyone to kill jews, burn their houses down, and murder their children as islam does.
IF YOU KNOW AN ISLAMIC AND THEY APPEAR TO BE YOUR FIRENDS, WELL THEY ARE NOT MURDERING YOU FOR YOUR LACK OF BEING ISLAMIC BECAUSE THEY FEAR PUNISHMENT - BECAUSE THEIR CULT OF DEATH DEMANDS THEY DO IT.
if you know a good islamic, they are horrible human beings. they cant be both.
like a nazi, they cant be a nazi and still be a good person.

Folks,
Plaza shws a total lack of understanding of Christian Theology not only in his meritless attempt to characterize the Church as a cult but in his assertion that:

"Remember 'indulgences'? They are bringing those arcane and theologically unsupportable anachronism's back too.. big time. "

Huh?? Indulgences were never eliminated at all.

From his Martin Luther comment, I assume Plaza must be a dupe of Luther's false "faith alone" dogma. Here's the real skinny on that tempest in a teapot: Law student Martin made a silly vow to become a monk as he crossed an open field in a thunderstorm because he was afraid of lightning. Then when he couldn't keep his vows, he needed a way out of them. So, he attacked the efficacy of "works" (such things as vows and other good works) by inventing the eisegesis about "sola fide" out of whole cloth despite the very clear statement in James 2:24 that: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. "

Because the James epistle so clearly refuted Luther's faith alone position, he had the chutzpah to try to cut that epistle out of the Bible as a so-called "epistle of straw." If anyone is in a cult, it is someone who follows Luther, not the majority of christians who follow the Church Jesus founded in the First Century AD, the Catholic Church from which Martin broke away in the 16th Century.

""We aught to pay attention to the purest reason that Pope Benedict has rescinded the excommunication, that reason is forgiveness.""

Wrong. His reason is political, pure and simple.
The same way the church has obstructed and protected pedophiles. Forgiveness my ass. It is all a political reaction to the church's own sins that have been driving the church into irrelevance.

The Catholic Church, as it has evolved, is a cult, not a church. That is something Martin Luther realized centuries ago.

"""Does this reconciliation with the Saint Pius X Society in any way mean that Benedict is backing off the achievements of Vatican II? Is he backing away from some of its core teachings? His defenders insist not, and as a Catholic, I would like to hope not."""

Huh? Have you been living in a cave??

Remember 'indulgences'? They are bringing those arcane and theologically unsupportable anachronism's back too.. big time.

Benedict's agenda is the total dismantlement of Vatican II.

As the world moves forward into the 21st century, Benedict wants to drag the church back into the old medieval elitism of the clergy and all of the irrationality that supported all of that.

I think there are alot of things being misunderstood, I believe that Pope Benedict's gesture was one of forgiveness, as God hopes for us to learn. The Pope's duties are to deliver God's message and do so by example as much as by word. Despite Bishop Richardson personally held views about the Holocaust, the Pope must try and show compassion, to the just and in this case, the un-just. The pious aren't often the ones that need to be saved, it's the sinners that Christ's message is for. Let's say for example, a Judge dismisses the case of a murder because of a lack of evidence or some poor loophole in the law despite his own personal belief that the Murderer is guilty. Does that mean then that the Judge ultimately condones murder? of course not, he's following the directives of Modern Law. So too is the Pope bound to enact the laws of Heaven, regardless what others perceive as his 'true' motive. We aught to pay attention to the purest reason that Pope Benedict has rescinded the excommunication, that reason is forgiveness.

The Jewish Holocaust is one of many atrocities committed by humankind against humankind.

The Top 21 as per http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

The Twenty (or so) Worst Things People Have Done to Each Other:

Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries
1 55 million Second World War 20C
2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C
3 40 million Mongol Conquests 13C
4 36 million An Lushan Revolt 8C
5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C
6 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C
7 20 million Annihilation of the American Indians 15C-19C
8 20 million Iosif Stalin 20C
9 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C
10 18 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C
11 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C
12 17 million British India (mostly famine) 19C
13 15 million First World War 20C
14 9 million Russian Civil War 20C
15 8 million Fall of Rome 3C-5C
16 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C
17 7 million Thirty Years War 17C
18 5 million Russia's Time of Troubles 16C-17C
19 4 million Napoleonic Wars 19C
20 3 million Chinese Civil War 20C
21 3 million French Wars of Religion 16C

Anti-Semitism had nothing to do with the original excommunication and it has nothing to do with rescinding the excommunication. Be informed before you write a stupid column.

That the Catholic Church would want to discipline a bishop for not accepting the truth of the holocaust bothers me not a bit. The broader question is, however- what other denials will be deemed by leftists like Dionne to be beyond the pale? Will a disbelief in global warming some day disqualify a person from holding public ofiice? Will a man who does not believe in evolution be denied employment for that reason? Is someone who believes that communism murdered 100 million human beings a rational being? If a person denies that all cultures are equal, is he a racist? My fear is that leftists are in the process of developing a "historical and scientific" text that they will employ to impose cultural hegemony on a people who were once free. Free even to be mistaken.

"God's love" and the questioning of the depth and extent of historical events are not mutually exclusive. Truth never needs the protection of law or protection by censor, it's fully capable of standing on its own to questioning and doubt. Questions and doubt are particularly good in matters where there exist a near unanimity of opinion. The Catholic Church condemnation of Galileo and Copernicus for their outspoken "heretical" beliefs that the earth was not the center of the universe is a case in point.

yes, the catholic church can denounce their own anti-semitism, then then can denounce their own homophobia, then then can denounce their own sexist and discriminatory views...

why do "liberal catholics" think their church is a la carte?

take EJ to the inquisition.

There is no comparison between denying the existence of god(atheism)because there is no way to 'prove' it (rationalism) and denying that millions were systematically murdered solely because of their racial background and ancestry. One flies in the face of reality and the other demands the acceptance of reality.

Until Catholicism completely recognizes the inherent antisemitism of it's historical teachings, this will never go away.

Interesting that a controversy about Jews and history is used as a convenient stick for Catholic bashing. I know how you feel my Jewish brothers and sisters. Whackos always put both of us in the pillory when given an opportunity. This time they got a "two fer".

Holocaust deniers are having fun playing a game: by denying, with a wink of the eye, they get a charge out of further upsetting and ridiculing those that they hate and detest. They know that the holocaust existed and, often, in the next breath, threaten to revive it with even more vigor. Deniers are only troubled that it wasn't more effective. What they are denying is not the holocaust, rather any guilt, need for guilt, or embarrassment, in its implementation. The denier, as indicated in many of the other comments, just doesn't think that the holocaust was bad, evil, or requires any apology or even acknowledgment.

Dionne agrees with Father Reese, who wrote, "...while the Vatican is enthusiastic in wooing the right, it has no patience with the left." This statement is untrue, and an obvious counter-example is the Church's continuing soft-sell approach to public Catholic figures (politicians, etc.) who vocally support positions blatently contrary to Catholic doctrine and dogma.

Ah, so reminiscent of 1537 "recant your statement that the earth is not flat, or we will break your knees as we are doing to this sinner before you.." What article of faith did geophysics violate? What article of faith does statistics violate now? Of course we know that Germany lost 14 million people during WWII (7 million civilians and 7 million military). Of course we know that the Nazis murdered millions of their own citizens, many of them Jews. Of course we know that many of the millions who died, died at the hands of the Allies and their vicious bombing (like that of Dresden, which was one of the war crimes for which the Allies were never held accountable). Let's move on now with that memory. There is plenty of blood on the hands of even the holier-than-thou who are howling now. In order that people don't forget that they need to reign in their governments, let's never forget that any assault on freedom of speech, the freedom to criticise one's government, is an assault on the ability of people to control their governments. After all, I don't want to live under governments like that of Israel or Iran.

Ah yes, it's intolerable to have an opinion on a historic event different from that accepted by most people. Sounds very liberal and tolerant. Oops. . .

Demanding nobody question a particular account of history sure is liberal and tolerant, isn't it?

So how does denying the Armenian holocaust fit in, or the jews refusal to admit the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.

110 people were slaughtered in wars last century, why do we have to only focus on one tiny part of that carnage just because they are the loudest?

The mainstream church has become so infiltrated with private interest groups (like the US government) that the Lefevrists broke away, it would seem for theological reasons as well as political. What has this flap got to do with Christ's teachings? Has this guy violated "love your neighbor?" or is he simply exercising his freedom of speech? Is it against Cannon Law to vilify Muhammed? Let's use the same yard stick for ALL humans, irrespective of their beliefs, because in the eyes of God, the Jews are NOT the only chosen people, at least that is what Christ stated: "Go therefore and preach the Word to ALL people....." I find the Catholic Church has forgotten (or seemingly ignores) Christ's most basic teaching.

I wonder if all those of faith that are posting on here have ever given some thought as to why they have "faith"?

Faith is pure and simply endoctrination. It is performed on children because they are the most impressionable. In this way superstituous and primitive myths are perpetuated from one generation to another. This is "truth" by authority not by reason.

Think about it Dionne and see whether your "faith" is rational or just the product of brain washing when you were young.

Denial or acceptance of the Nazi-sponsored holocaust is not a principle of the faith. Stupidity, ignorance, nasty people - all are allowed to be "in" the Church's communion.

That point should not be overlooked: the sin is racial or religious bigotry, not bloody-minded intractable smug ignorance.

Those outside the Church may be confused about that. This within the Church should be alarmed that these dolts are allowed to continue in positions of authority over other impressionable people - that they may give scandal.

You don't have to acknowledge the holocaust genocide to be allowed into the communion of the faithful - but you ought to have to be intelligent and well-informed to have authority over the faithful.

And that is what frightens me - inside the church - about this Pope. He is willing to accommodate viciousness in the ordained as a way of maintaining authority over larger numbers of the faithful. He's no different from the Hagees and Robertsons and Dobsons in this. And that is what should worry those who are not Catholics, not the fact that these dopes get to received Communion.

This issue is something to deal with and it has been dealt with. Move on. Unfortunately, many in the Jewish faith treat their collective victimhood in the Shoah with greater reverence and greater respect than their own professed religion. They study the tenets and history of it, they focus on it in their daily life (almost like a prayer) and they take utter umbrage at any stray comment or position from whomever about its legitimacy or relevance or grandiosity as if it was a tenet of faith rather than a historical event. Christians like Dionne do not help by feeding this collective neediness. The horrible nature of the Holocaust and the emptiness it creates in some should be filled with the wonderful faith gifts that the Jewish faith has to offer. Practice the faith, not victimhood.

Most Jews that I know do not even practice their faith with the vigor that they practice victimhood. They are high holy day types (much akin to Christmas/Easter christian) who use temple as a networking experience. So for those that do practice it vigorously and fervently and faithfully, I must apologize. But I would venture to guess that they are not the most vocal critics nor as offended by this action. The bishops brought in from excommunication are not Catholic bishops with any stature or position. They are humans who have been given the chance to come back into communion with the Catholic Church. If they want to be jerks or kooks they can do that. It is nothing more. This is a cause without a true and real underlying faith issue. Those sincerely practicing in both faiths will know that. To the extent Pope Benedict and the Vatican need to explain the Canon law process so that it is not misperceived fine. But the rest of the nonsense along with Dionne calling this as some basic tenet of the Christian faith, is just silly. Move on to real issues.

Is it a crime to deny that the jews have comitted for the past sixty years and continue to comitt a slow and of lately an accelerated Holocaust of the Palestinian People?

In the liberal West One can deny the existance of God, defame Jesus and Muhammad and would all be considered Freedom of Speech-but no this does not apply to the "chosen people;" but Stalin slaughtered some twenty million Russians and half of the Chechans perished in the forced marchs of Stalin to Siberia in Russin winters.

The west is a big hypocrite.

This publicity splash about the British Bishop Wilamson denying the so called holocaust is only a smoke screen of "White Phosphrous Bombs" to Divert World Attention from "israel's" War Crimes and Crimes against Humanities in Gaza.

Besides the pope is a hypocrite and a creep:where was the vatican when catholic hiltler and his nazis administred the holocaust in the pope's backyard-as the serb barbarians committed the Genocide of Bosnian Muslims.

Let us now focus on the recent on-going israeli War Crimes and Crimes against Humnaities in Gaza.

I agree with every word and thank you. The generosity and compassion did not come out of the blue.
In 1937, Pope, Pius Xl issued an Encyclical that criticized the “war of extermination” and the notion of a master race: “As God’s sun shines on every human face so His law knows neither privilege nor exception.” The Pope added: “Nothing but ignorance and pride could blind one to the treasures hoarded in the Old Testament.”
Again many thanks,
ian Shine
New York

Now that the Pope has done the right thing, I sincerely hope that he will be more inclusive.

What about condemning the Black Holocaust (the kidnapping and slavery of Africans), the mass murdering of Germany's Gypsies, and the extermination of the Native Caribbean Indians?

Were these people lesser than the European Jews?

E. J. Dionne is doing a lot of mind-reading here to keep an issue alive that really isn't there. He's not sure that the Pope is sufficiently committed to Vatican II (although the Pope has said he is) or to continuing Catholic-Jewish dialogue and the historical position that there unquestionably was an Holocaust (although again Benedict has affirmed such positions repeatedly both before and since Williamson's bizarre views came to light).

Apparently, Dionne has still not figured out the purposelessness of continuing to beat dead horses. E.J., stick a fork in this one; it's done.

Excommunicate the moronic, Jew hater from Argentina, the home of Nazis and their progeny that ran from Germany after WWII.

'Catholics should be speaking up about Pope Benedict XVI's decision to rescind the excommunication of Bishop Richard Williamson'

One who doesn't do or believe as one is told by the pope cannot call oneself a catholic. One of the main distinctions between catholicism and christianity is that catholicism requires ultimate obedience to the pope.
Ratzinger should carry on, he's doing fine. Thanks to him the number of people calling themselves catholics will decrease rapidly. Ratzinger is causing the power of the Roman Church to crumble faster and faster. Sit back, grab some popcorn and enjoy.

The Pope should tell Bishop Richard Williamson to go to...

AWWWww!!! Enough of this "holocaust denial" nonsense... It ain't news...

"Opposing anti-Semitism should be a central calling for all who think of themselves as Christians"

Opposing discrimination against any people regardless of ethnicity is wrong. You do no thave to be Christian to be against genocide.

You can be an athiest and be aainst both.

Sadly, religion/faith is usually use as reason for comitting genocide. Christians talk a good talk but one only has to listen tot he likes fo John Hagee, Pat Robertson, et al to see that intollerence and discrimination is preached from the pulpit every Sunday.

Christians need to spend more time practicing the tenants of their faith and less time pointing fingers.

In the meantime, Benedict promoted an ultraconservative pastor in Austria who suggested Hurricane Katrina was provoked by sin in New Orleans. This ex-Nazi thinks he can hide his heart from God but his actions make his beliefs all too apparent to the rest of us.

I am very gratified that so many people have spoken up in defense of Jews. It will be a sign of true progress when the pope's horrific proclamations against gay people are met with the same outrage.

Holocaust deniers and holocaust trademarkers both belittle the human tragedy. Religious zealots are the very root of evil. Ratzinger is only of them.

I don't see how Dionne can feel optimistic about Ratzinger. I have followed his actions over the years and he scares me. The man has displayed that terrible Teutonic stubbornness and self-righteousness that has done so much damage to the world.

The incorporation of the Lefebvrists is but an example of this. Cardinal Kasper has said publicly that Ratzinger did not consult with this step with the Vatican hierarchy. It takes some doing for a cardinal to publicly criticize a pope!

The list of Ratzinger's efforts to swing the Church back to medieval times is long. In fact, just last week we saw the re-emergence the of "indulgences" which caused Luther to defect.

Is nobody going to discuss Ratzinger's "sweep-it-under-the-rug" policy of pedophile priests when he was Prefect of The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith?

Why doesn't Dionne dwell on the influence of the reactionary and secretive Opus Dei in the Vatican since John Paul II and Ratzinger?

Moreover, Ratzinger was influential in the election of Bush/Cheney in 2004. A personal friend of the Bush family, he wielded such strong pressure on U.S. Catholics to vote against Kerry that some feel he decided the elections.

No, I cannot in good faith accept that this figure is good for the Church or for the world.

sunaj "While this viewpoint may be objectionable to some, the act of villifying people because they question the accepted historical record of the holocaust or any other event, much less making it a crime is absurd, and represents a much bigger threat to a free society"

This is not a fight over lofty ideals of "free society". Nor is this discrimination against people who represent an "objectionable" viewpoint. This is outrage stemming from a common sense reaction to shocking ignorance and bigotry. It has also never been a "crime" to deny the (very well documented) holocaust. It is the duty of people who understand history, however, to challenge such claims. Just as it was the duty of scientists to challenge claims that the earth is the center of the universe, flat, and only a few thousand years old.

In the United States we all have a right to our opinions, and it is our culture to exchange and engage each other with these opinions in a Socratic tradition. But sunaj, some opinions, as we have learned, are better than others.

Who defines what so-called Holocaust denial is???

Is doubting the tossed about figure of 6 million JEWS
considered denial? It would seem minimization or trivialization might be a better word.

Is INCLUDING the number of non-Jewish victims considered denial as well? Is the Holocaust a registered
trademark (TM)?

Is wondering about the reliability of some of the testimony of certain eyewitnesses denial too?

Is asking about denial a form of denial?

As you can see- this could go on forever.

While this viewpoint may be objectionable to some, the act of villifying people because they question the accepted historical record of the holocaust or any other event, much less making it a crime is absurd, and represents a much bigger threat to a free society

"As a liberal Catholic, I have, on balance, been relieved by Benedict's papacy - relieved because he has, on the whole, proven to be pastoral and not as hard-line in his approach so many expected."

As a liberal non-Cathoic, I have, on balance, been highly disturbed by Benedict's papacy, because I haven't forgotten that you can't get blood out of a stone or make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Right, E.J.?

Stephen17:

Yes, we should all pray for peace in the Mideast, and elsewhere too. But I thought E.J. had some good criticism of the Bishop of Rome.

Unfortunately, Pope Benedict XVl was not properly
informed as to the views of the Holocaust denying
Bishop. Were he aware of this the excommunication would have taken a different
course.

Mr. Dionne would do well to refrain from preaching against the Holy Father, and instead pray earnestly for Peace in the Middle East.

Whats so surprising about any of this? Naziism and the SS was founded on Jesuitic principals and guidance.... Himmler was a High ranking Knights of Malta member aka Jesuit.With just a little research its all verifialble, just google it if you dare.As well as who was behind the death camps and the slaughter of jews and protestants in eastern Europe and the Balkins
Mien Kampf was writtin by Father Staemple a Jesuit priest.I love Catholic people My 3 best friends are Catholic and not meaning to attack anyone but the system is highly suspect if you ask me.

>>>Mr. Dionne would do well to refrain from preaching to the Holy Father, and instead pray earnestly for Peace in the Middle East

because, God forbid that anyone criticize the pope.... oh wait, that's *precisely* what Benedict would like us to believe.

And I don't find the two activities mutually exclusive, especially if one truly cares about achieving that peace. Rescinding Williamson's excommunication certainly did nothing on that account.

This article and comments makes me think about what I love and hate about all religions and people.

I love: Big ideas, America, the United States Constitution, facts, logic, truth, peace, freedom of speech, love, rule of law, belief in a higher power.

I hate: Hate, racism, little ideas, bombing houses with families inside, ethnic cleansing, negotiating in bad faith, stealing, scary and insane religious zealotry, nationalism.

I really don't see any correlation between what I love and hate, and these religions and people. That makes these simple minded conversations really complicated.

According to a recent news story, "Bishop Williamson said he had ordered a book by Jean-Claude Pressac, Auschwitz: Technique And Operation Of The Gas Chambers"

I wonder if he knows about Germar Rudolf's books about the gas chambers. Presssac looked at documents; Germar looked at the gas chambers.

Geseke Author Profile Page:

To Stadbear:

>Here is a quote from Wikipedia regarding the countries where Holocaust denial is a crime:

For some bizarre and idiotic reason, when I read his claim, my thoughts were of states in the democratic US. Of course, you are right.

To Michael Santomauro:

If Germar Rudolf gets any money from the sale of a book about the Holocaust, even one that tells both sides of the debate, the German government will probably confiscate the money. I fear that his passport will not be returned to him and he will not be allowed to leave Germany. You can be sure that he will never be allowed to speak or write again.

Whats so surprising about any of this? Naziism and the SS was allegedly founded on Jesuitic principals and guidance.... Himmler was a High ranking Knights of Malta member aka Jesuit.With just a little research its all verifiable, just google it if you dare.As well as what was behind the death camps and the slaughter of jews and protestants in eastern Europe and the Balkins
Mien Kampf was writtin by Father Staemple a Jesuit priest.I love Catholic people My 3 best friends are Catholic and not meaning to attack anyone but the whole system is highly suspect if you ask me.

To Stadbear:

Here is a quote from Wikipedia regarding the countries where Holocaust denial is a crime:

Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland.

Slovakia made Holocaust denial a crime in late 2001 but repealed the legislation in May 2005. Spain decriminalized Holocaust denial in October 2007.[91] Italy rejected a draft Holocaust denial law proposing a prison sentence of up to four years in 2007, the Netherlands rejected a draft law proposing a maximum sentence of one year in 2006 and before this the United Kingdom twice rejected a Holocaust denial law. Denmark and Sweden also have rejected Holocaust denial legislation.[92]

stadtbear:

Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 13 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland.

Mr. Dionne would do well to refrain from preaching to the Holy Father, and instead pray earnestly for Peace in the Middle East.

ReporterNotebook Author Profile Page:

>Furthermore I deplore the fact that many so-called democratic states have laws that criminalize public doubting of the Holocaust.

Name two.

what, exactly, is there to debate, Santomauro? And it would appear that you are posting in the wrong forum. Holocaust "debate" and even outright denial are not crimes in the United States. Signs of, at best, boneheadedness and, at worst, outright revisionism motivated by bigotry, yes, but not crimes.

DEBATING THE HOLOCAUST: A New Look At Both Sides by Thomas Dalton, PhD

Publisher's Note: This is a non-Revisionist title for Theses & Dissertations Press. It will be the first book on the Holocaust, in publishing history, that will not take a Traditionalist or a Revisionist point of view. When you purchase this book, one-third of the proceeds will go to Germar Rudolf and his family.

http://www.amazon.com/Debating-Holocaust-Look-Both-Sides/dp/1591480051/

Founded in 2000 the publishing company Theses & Dissertations Press is at the center of a worldwide network of scholars and activists who are working -- often at great personal sacrifice -- to separate historical fact from propaganda fiction. The founder of Theses & Dissertations Press is Germar Rudolf. Who is currently serving prison time for his published works and will be released on July 4, 2009.

As the new director of Germar Rudolf's American publishing division, I wish to express my outrage that the Holocaust, unlike any other historical event, is not subject to critical revisionist investigation. Furthermore I deplore the fact that many so-called democratic states have laws that criminalize public doubting of the Holocaust. It is my position that the veracity of Holocaust assertions should be determined in the marketplace of scholarly discourse and not in our legislatures bodies and courthouses.

Peace.

Michael Santomauro
Editorial Director
Call: 917-974-6367
ReporterNotebook@Gmail.com

"I'm sure if the Pope knew what I really thought, I would be excommunicated. Oh well let anyone try. I will still go to Mass and I will still take Holy communion any time I want!"

I know what you mean -- there is an elasticity, or an undercurrent in Catholicism, at least in America, where you can identify to certain doctrines of the Church, but not others -- and this is known by your congregation, or priests, and quietly accepted. Detractors of this call it being a "Cafeteria Catholic". But from my point of view, and from the point of view of many American Catholics, this give-and-take makes sense.

You can read far more racist views than Bishop Richard Williamson's in the posts in any Israeli newspaper, 7 days a week. The only difference is, they pertain to the Palestinians. It's quite common to hold such views in Israel. I for one am sick and tired of their perennial victim status.

OK, So what. There are probably millions of holocaust deniers in the world. What's one more? The real issue is that Pope Wimpy I is taking the Church back to the middle ages. Even tho he doesn't say it, he is anti-semetic and believes the only church whose members will be saved is the Catholic Church. He's been planning all this since before he became Pope. In *his* "Catholic" church, there is no room for any other opinion then his. I'm sure if the Pope knew what I really thought, I would be excommunicated. Oh well let anyone try. I will still go to Mass and I will still take Holy communion any time I want!

"Actually, I think it's the very people who call themselves Christians that have nurtured, refined, embraced, perfected, and practiced anti-Semitism over the last 1,000 years."

You are wrong. The Christians are but second-handers when it comes to formulating hatred of the Jews. Documented refined programs of anti-semitism go back to at least the 3rd century BCE, from the enlightened & humanistic Greeks, in sophisticated places of learning, like Alexandria. Then after that, it was the Romans.

"Opposing anti-Semitism should be a central calling for all who think of themselves as Christians."

Actually, I think it's the very people who call themselves Christians that have nurtured, refined, embraced, perfected, and practiced anti-Semitism over the last 1,000 years.

I fear that rescinding these excommunications indicates precisely what worries Mr. Dionne. Lefebvre , Williamson et al were not excommunicated not for their adherence to tradition and hostility toward Vatican II. It was their flouting of papal authority that brought down John Paul II's excommunication. Yes, their disobedience was motivated by their traditionalist beliefs, but it was not the reason that they were actually excommunicated.

Now, given his past positions, one would think that the current pope would agree that such rejection of papal authority would merit excommunication. I fear, however, that welcoming these particular errant bishops back into the fold shows that Benedict feels kinship with their traditionalist beliefs. That kinship apparently has won out over concerns over papal authority.

We certainly don't see Benedict polevaulting over standard Vatican procedure to welcome other errant Catholics [with whom he probably vigorously disagrees on the merits] back into communion with the Church.

Yaknow, like so many other things in the Church, the thread of Holocaust denial runs deeper than most want to admit... The way they taught about it when *I* was in school, it was some totally isolated incident that impossibly popped up in the middle of Europe, was evil for a bit, produced a couple selfless Catholic martyrs, and then went away.

The Catholic Church has its Apostle's Creed which is a list of what Catholics are required to believe. Now we have Pope Benedict's Creed which we are required to believe.

"Making crazy statements doesn't warrant excommunication."

I agree. I know this guy, Jesus, who made a whole bunch of crazy statements. Love your neighbor. Turn the other cheek. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's. Cast not the first stone. Call God "Pappa". Revolutionary stuff. Wow! I don't think Christians appreciate just how UPSETTING JESUS WAS.

"This eloquent apology for the Pope and the increasingly out of touch Catholic Church is undeserved..."

Yeah, the Catholic Church tends to be about 150 - 300 years behind the times, at any given significant historical time. The CC catches up, in time, I guess that is a good thing.

Let's see, he's ex excommunicated and he's rehabilitated. So now he's maybe ex-rehabilitated and ex ex excommunicated? Or is he recommunicated and unrehabilitated? What he ought to be is quiet I think. If the Pope wants to recommunicate him, the Pope will. The Pope's presiding over the longest running bureaucrazy in human history. But if God/Goddess had to pick just one church on Earth to be his/hers, would he/she want this one?

This eloquent apology for the Pope and the increasingly out of touch Catholic Church is undeserved. Williamson's holocaust denial is only one aspect of this bizarre, angry persona. He has stated that women should not wear pants or attend Universities in large numbers. He has stated that gay people evoke a natural hatred and aggression in straight people.

Furthermore, when the Pope embraces Williamson, does he not also embrace his antisemitism, sexism, homophobia and xenophobia? After all, I don't see Rev. James Callan being invited back after he was excommunicated for supporting the rights of women and gays in his church.

Making crazy statements doesn't warrant excommunication. Nor does making hateful statements. We are all sinners. We are all damaged. If we are outside of the Church we cut ourselves off from redemption. If the Pope waited for people to give up hate as a prerequisite for being in Communion with the Church, few of us would make it.
The bishop's denial of the authority of the Pope is what got him excommunicated.
God loves us even when we hate. That's the whole point. Bring the guy home. Get him under the roof. Then clean him up.

I pray that all religious leaders, of all faiths, spread a message of hope, reconciliation, and peace, for all people, of all faiths. I pray that through faith, and dedication, we cleave to the truth, of what has been (right or wrong), and what can be. This is no easy task.

Pope Benedict and Bishop Richard Williamson are connected with the same thread of historical denial, or historical intellectualism -- a mechanism that is integral to the Catholic Church, and how the Church validates itself.

"Thanks to the Pope we are returning to Nazism. I do not think that the damage he has caused can be undone."

Well, that stuff didn't end with the Nazis, and it sure didn't *start* with em.

Guess regular folks will just have to do what we've always done.

Try and work it out, anyway.

Bishop Williamson has been reinstated by the highest authority in the Catholic Church. As much as this is a historical fact so is the fact that more than six million Jews perished by the hands of German Nazism.
I was always of the impression that the Catholic Church and its highest authority stood for truth. As simple and as basic as that. I guess I was wrong.
Do the Pope's apologies erase Bishop Williamson's expressions? No.
The world should hear Bishop Williamson's unequivocal apology. And that is not happening.
Reconciliation or not I agree with E.J. Dionne in so far as "Opposing anti-Semitism should be a central calling for all who think of themselves as Christians". The fact of the matter remains Williamson has not renounced his Holocaust denial. Thanks to the Pope we are returning to Nazism. I do not think that the damage he has caused can be undone.

I left the Church, because of it's revisionist view of history, and specifically Church history. Anyone in the Church who tries to explain away, or deny the brutality of the Holocaust, is a creature of that walled up ecosystem. What I am saying is, there is a larger problem here. Structurally, ideologically, I don't think the Catholic Church can get to grips with other historical controversies, if it does "solve" the Bishop Richard Williamson problem, how does that address the larger issue of a Catholic Church with it's historical revisionistic outlook?

I know everyone's kinda studiously-once-born about things like this, but anyone remember *kings?* Particularly *absentee kings?* Here we've got maneuverings for worldwide influence... and the dude's actual *kingdom* probably has most of its square footage *indoors.*

Dig?

"The first goes to the viewpoint of the group Benedict has decided to conciliate. When people talk about "traditionalist" Catholics, they usually think of those who like the Latin Mass. There is nothing wrong with liking the Mass in Latin."

I have to say that *that* may not be a bad idea, of itself, with the understanding that when I was in Catholic school, the devoutest Catholics were the ones cheating off my Latin homework and barely understood a word of it.

Gotta wonder about the 'eternalleyness truthiness' of 'vernacular' masses, though.

Whatever. Not my row to hoe, these days, so to speak.

I do think Benedict's *way beyond tone-deaf and somewhere into carpet bombing certain neighborhoods with cast off pots and pans, for a how-it-sounds-metaphor* move here is just like his general not-really-handling of the sex abuse 'scandal,' (As a scandal, meaning it's time to 'crack down on queer people' not as an institutionalized crime often perpetrated *against* queer people who couldn't run for help cause of the very stigmas the abusive clergy promoted and *used* in their depredations,)

Well, I think it's all part of the fact that he's right wing, wants right wing Catholics, and also wants *authority.*

I'm sure that in his mind he also thinks his Church is the only way to save these right wing radicals, and for that he must say 'Hey, I'll forgive you for that even if Karol Voiteiwa somehow couldn't find it in his heart to figure you had some f'n redeeming quality..'

I mean, when the previous Pope was being all publically-owie, much was made of him being pious and determined... but who engineered these miraculous swings for the Neocon while the guy obviously was hurting too bad to be thinking too clear?

This is about influence. And stuff.

You know.

The Papacy.