His kind words notwithstanding, byroniac has lost track of the flow of this discussion. He complains that Dr. Yarnell's Baptist distinctives are of no interest to the world. Well, they were to Mr. Waters who wrote the original piece to which Dr. Yarnell responded. Dr. Yarnell did not volunteer his views on Baptists distinctives but responded to a critical diatribe that first addressed them.

byroniac also overlooks (or may be unaware of) the fact that conservative groups do far more social service and social ministry than liberal groups. Liberals are so few in number that they simply do not have the private funding or the private human resources to serve the needy byroniac complains walk his street. The remarkable growth of American conservative churches since WWII has fueled an astonishing advance to meets people's social needs. Conservative biblical theology rightly applied rushes the followers of Jesus Christ into service.

Finally, byroniac fails to address the significant issue embedded in Dr. Yarnell's response, namely, the Lordship of Jesus Christ. If Christ be Lord, He sets the agenda no matter what interests or disinterests the sinful world. The task of the followers of Jesus is not to allow the world to goad it into action, but to follow the Lord Jesus Christ. Like Christ, therefore, followers of Jesus must expound the truths of God's love, human sinfulness, the certainty of judgment, the hope of salvation in Christ alone, God's command to repent and trust Christ, and Christ's call to follow Him.

Culture and age groups are not risen from the dead and seated at the right hand of the Father. Without these credentials, the world has no right to goad the church into its preferences.

Instead of providing marching orders to the church, I suggest the world pay careful attention to Christ and submit to His right to do the ordering.

I will say this, I think Dr. Yarnell's reply overall is excellent, and I honestly do not believe he intended any condescension. I believe he was trying to explain theological concepts and ideas which possibly could be foreign to most of our culture on the "outside" as it were (they often seem to be, shockingly enough).

That said, my only criticism is that Dr. Yarnell did not address the three main reasons given for SBC decline that I can see. What he said was excellent. However, the problem is not in what Dr. Yarnell said, but in the greatest problem and threat the SBC faces in the culture at large: unbelief.

Someone could easily come along and re-title Dr. Yarnell's piece as "View from inside the Southern Baptist Box" or even, "View from inside the religion box." Honestly, and I mean no offense, it reads like that, unless you share the same religious beliefs and theological terminology. Dr. Yarnell's answers to the questions of the original article (which are not even the main points) could all be read as, "This is how my religion thinks about... X, Y, and Z." It might be quality information (and it is), but it will be received as simply religious data to be processed and catalogued (and unfortunately, ignored).

People in general are not interested in Baptist distinctives. They are not interested in condemnation and strict rules. They are no longer impressed with beautiful buildings and parking lots filled with fancy cars in cities with homeless people wandering around begging for food. The older generation of the faithful is dying off, and the younger generation (mine) is tuning out. Church is seen at best as irrelevant and at worst, obsolete and intellectually childish.

That is the tragedy. It is the tragedy of unbelief. The only cure is the Gospel itself.

Oh, and one more further thing. Another element missing from Dr. Yarnell's article is acknowledgement of wrongdoing and understanding of needed correctives. This does not have to get down to the personal level. This simply means confessing that some who hold our faith have done wrong and acted contrarily and hypocritically towards that faith: that are those who have been unmerciful, unkind, unloving, unforgiving, partial, and guilty of double standards.

Those outside of the Southern Baptist faith can detect the disparity between faith and action, even if many on the inside cannot. And they are not interested in hearing "what's right about my religion" as this conversation has been heard, in detail, many times. It does mean a whole lot to those who are looking for valid complaints and criticisms to be heard and addressed.

That's just my $0.02.

Thanks so much to Dr. Yarnell for expressing so eloquently the heart of my mind. I've been a Southern Baptist for 53 years. Among us are many who try our best to die daily to our own pride, self-centeredness and sin. We want to live as our Savior teaches in His Word. We do not always live as becoming His Light and Truth. But we do love, we do forgive, we do have mercy and we do give as we grow in our faith and commitment to Jesus. selahV

Malcolm,

Very good article and expression of the biblical faith. You expressed our common faith very well against the Water's confusion. I have been a Southern Baptist for 26 years in churches in California, North and South Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, and Texas, and do not recognize the Southern Baptist Waters describes. I have known no one among Southern Baptists who measured their success merely in terms of numbers. Not one!

While I do not recognize the Southern Baptist Water's describes, I do recognize the Southern Baptist you describe. That is the one who points to Jesus Christ as the sufficient, atoning, risen sacrifice that God Himself offered upon the altar of the cross for our sins. Thank God He forgives and transforms all the humble that repent and trust Christ alone for salvation. Otherwise, there would be no hope for any of us, especially me.

Keep up the good work.

the bible certainly does condon slavery, and supports slave owners. For some Bible verses condoning slavery, see:
http://etori.tripod.com/slave-verses.html
or:
"In Exodus 21 the guidelines for the buying, selling and treatment of slaves is given. God says in verse 4 that if a male slave marries, his wife and children shall remain with the master when the slave departs because technically speaking they belong to the master. How's that for family values? Now if the slave is imprudent enough to protests because he loves his wife and children and wants to stay on, the consequences can be pretty drastic. In verse 6 the master is directed to "Bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever". This is all repeated with some minor alteration in Deuteronomy 15:16-17. Here the master is told to "Do likewise to your maid slaves." In Exodus 21:7-9 God even instructs men how they are to go about selling their own daughters into slavery. Here it is worth noting that many church officials including popes have owned slaves"
http://www.inu.net/skeptic/slavery.html

God is and has been dead for a long time. The problem here, as so well stated by Nietzsche over a century ago, is that the common man, the ill-educated herd (read, "Christians et al" like this Baptist preacher here) haven't even realized it yet. And the beautiful irony of it all is that they themselves are the primary cause. The absolute nonsense here in these columns "on faith" demonstrate again and again this fact.

The so-called church catholic is divided amongst thousands of individualized congregations with all manner of contradictory beliefs and is morally bankrupt throughout the world. This is true of Judaism as well as Islam. Do we not see this everyday in the ancient lands of perpetual hatred and war?

The mindlessness of those commenting here is sickening. Will man never rise to accept his moral responsibilities in this world?

Who said that Pres. Truman was the end all in matters theological? He was a politician, after all.

Despite the narrow reading of it by liberals, the Bible does not condone slavery or command it. Many, many people make this claim, including our misguided president-elect. Interestingly, they NEVER cite a verse to back it up and if they were to cite a verse, it would have to be explained in it's context, like every book that one reads. We can all pull verses out of context, but only in it's original context does it have logical meaning. Finally, the Apostle Paul claimed to be a bond servant of Christ, which was the same in the first century AD as being a slave - the terms were used interchangeable.

Huh? If this is the way Baptists explain their way of doing and being Christians no wonder they are in decline. Maybe this is good theospeak, but as a lifelong Christian layperson, the response made little sense to me and avoided the big issues suggested by the original article to which Prof. Yarnell was answering. Southern Baptists have a strong niche in the diverse group of denominations. They have a lot to teach us non-Baptists, but equally as much to learn from those denominations who practice Christianity differently in some significant ways. Prof. Yarnells response certainly didn't make me want to visit or commune more closely with S. Baptists. It did seem bureaucratic and pedantic, but that is not what I am seeking in a church. At any rate, may God continue to bless Prof. Yarnell and his denomination as they adjust to chaning times.

For CCNL who wrote:

"As per President Harry Truman:

'The Baptists] do not want a person to go to shows or dance or do anything for a good time. Well I like to do all those things and play cards besides. So you see I am not very strong as a Baptist. Anyhow I don't think any church on earth will take you to heaven if you're not real anyway. I believe in people living what they believe and talking afterwards.... (From a letter to Bess Wallace, March 19, 1911. Papers Relating to Family, Business, and Personal Affairs.)"'

And ........ what's your point?

What does your above have to do with the substance of what Rev. Yarnell wrote???

His mercy and judgment in providence through history upon His churches (as He did with the Civil War regarding slavery, for instance),
----------------------------------------------

If it weren't for the church we wouldn't have had to fight the civil war in the first place. The bible argues FOR slavery. How convenient of you to forget that fact.

Eh, they're like any other 'Church:' claim the weight of numbers when it's convenient: blame a few 'bad apples' or 'schism' when it's not.

They may do what they like. The world's just watching, as all.

As per President Harry Truman:

"The Baptists] do not want a person to go to shows or dance or do anything for a good time. Well I like to do all those things and play cards besides. So you see I am not very strong as a Baptist. Anyhow I don't think any church on earth will take you to heaven if you're not real anyway. I believe in people living what they believe and talking afterwards.... (From a letter to Bess Wallace, March 19, 1911. Papers Relating to Family, Business, and Personal Affairs.)"