freund3 :

You wrote, "Similarly, what was the Eucharist before it was declared to be the actual body and blood of Christ?"

It has always been the Body and Blood of Jesus, Jesus Himself said so.

You also wrote, "One last thing, where in the Bible does it say anything about saints and how to confirm them?"

In the bible the "saints" that you refer to are called the "great cloud of witnesses" in the bible when it refers to saints, it is speaking about people that are still alive.

It is called "canonizing them" not "confirming them" but I have no idea if anything of this sort is spoken of in the bible.

I am a Catholic and I cherish my Catholic Faith and I have also met God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus, I have also met satan.

One of the things that Jesus said is, "Simon, thou art Peter and upon this rock, I will build My Church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it".

First off, we are all called to be "rocks", living stones.

Second, Jesus said that The Church is HIS CHURCH, He didn't say that the Church was Peter's but since they noticed that it might be awhile before He came back, they had to do something to pass on the Faith whether or not It took root.

Third, "the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it" is the whole mission of the Church.

Another thing that Jesus said, "I Am the Vine, you are the branches", He said branches, not branch.

Another thing that Jesus said, "Come follow Me", He did not say: follow My Church, follow My Teachings, follow the bible, follow those that call themself Christian what He said was, "follow Me".

I cannot live anyone else's life and no one else can live anyone else's life, we will all be judged, we do have free will and it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

God has a Plan and has had His Plan since before creation and His Plan, which is for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in His Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, will come to fruition.

God is not only Our Father but by Jesus, God-Incarnate, becoming One of us, He became the Brother of ALL OF US, also Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide us.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The RCC is guilty of a lot of things but it did not kill Copernicus. And there is no evidence that he was even excommunicated.

To wit: from Wikipedia

"Copernicus died in Frombork on 24 May 1543. Legend has it that the first printed copy of De revolutionibus was placed in his hands on the very day that he died, allowing him to take farewell of his life's work. He is reputed to have wakened from a stroke-induced coma, looked at his book, and died peacefully.

jsypal :
"It's one thing to make it legal, it's a whole other ballgame when you are sanctioning late-term abortions (c'mon, if people can't make the decision during the first trimester, something is wrong), denying parents the right to notification of an abortion for a minor daughter, using tax payer dollars to fund abortions, forcing (this is part of FOCA) Catholic hospitals and physicians to perform abortions against their ethical code."
___________________________
Sorry, Jay, FOCA doesn't actually say that: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.2020:

As for Mr. Judge's article, I enjoyed it. Many of us struggle in this day and age to be "Just Catholic," so I can relate.

Not being a member of the catholic faith, I am always curious as to how the church responds to the many, many atrocious horrors and hypocrisys of its past.
For example, the excommunication and killing of Copernicus, how Popes have been married, had children, the Council of Trent declaring all non-Catholics heathens and doomed to hell.
Similarly, didn't there used to be banned book lists? So people who read the books in the past went to hell, well, what about people who read them today?
Similarly, what was the Eucharist before it was declared to be the actual body and blood of Christ? And, how is that not cannibalism, and how does that jive with the with the commandment against consuming blood?
In the modern church, the silence during WW2, or the way the rampant pedophilia was secreted, how do you come to grips with these things as a Cathlolic? I always wonder what was being done 100, 200, 300 years ago by the church if this is the way they handle things now.
One last thing, where in the Bible does it say anything about saints and how to confirm them?
To a laymen outside the church, it appears to be a church of mans law over Gods on occasion. Any comments would be appreciated.

Catholics have two impediments to establishing a close communion with Christ: they insist on attempting to prove the existence of God by logical arguments and they are too immersed in worldly affairs. In the end, acceptance of God has to be based on faith because attempting to use logical arguments only leads to a loss of faith as every argument can be answered with a counter argument that is just as valid, logically, leaving the believer, eventually, with only his or her belief. In regards to worldly affairs, the truly religious can never rule as effectively as those who compromise their faith. It is hubris to think governing can be done without acting contrary to the precepts of Christ when He rejected the Devils offer of worldly domination and went to His sacrificial death willingly. The separation of church and state is not the invention of a few New World magnates gathered together in Philadelphia; it is a principle instituted by Christ during his sojourn of 40 days in the desert. His and our kingdom is not of this earth, and he can only be truly know spiritually, not intellectually, i.e., Christ's words resonant in the soul, not in the mind. But, then, the Church is the result of the Great Apostasy in which Constantine beguiled it with worldly dominion that was rejected by the Savior. Catholics need to shed the burden of pride in their church and focus on the saving Grace of Christ.

Mr. Judge,

Thanks for your thoughts.

As with you, I too was very positively influenced by those wonderful, wonderful ladies known as Nuns.

I attended Catholic grade school 9 years .... K - 8 ....back when every class was filled by a nun.

My memories are all positive.

I was a "wildman" in my youth. I mean the following sincerely and not as a matter of hyberpole ....... I am alive today only because of the combined efforts of a tough nosed, no non sense Irish Catholic mother *AND* the efforts of those Godly ladies known as Nuns. I am deeply indebited to them.

Most importantly, the Nuns totally grounded me in my Christian faith and acceptance of JESUS as Lord and Savior. Under their tutelage, I was thoroughly prepared to receive 3 of 7 sacraments ....... reconcilliation, Eucharist and confirmation.

To this day, this retired Marine has a soft spot in his heart for Nuns.

On those rare occassions I meet a Nun in public, they always receive a sincere greeting and I'll ask if I can assist them ....... carry their grocery bags etc.

Nuns are prominently named in my will because I know first hand what they do!

When you see a Nun, you are looking at a Godly lady.

Good news ...... it is my understanding that vocations for women to become Nuns has ticked up.

To Nuns everywhere ....... thank you for what you did and what you do.

St. Aloysius is a "grubby basement church"? That wasn't the case when I attended Mass there. It is a fairly normal, far from ugly, 19th century church building, but the truly beautiful inside of the church was decorated by Constantino Brumidi, who also did the paintings and decorations in the U.S. Capitol. Has someone torn down St. Aloysius and substituted a grubby basement? If you don't believe me, google some photographs.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

We are not defending B16. He is his own worst enemy. His actions however do not change the OT atrocity history of the Jews unless you want to declare the OT to be the musings and myths of a number of Jewish scribes.

CCNL,

Let me warn you. Do not defend the indefensible. This Ratzinger as you, yourself, posted circulated memos on the need to keep quiet about pedophile priests. What he has done with this psychopath bishop has made him an object of contempt, as much among Christians as among Jews. He has done nothing, this Ratzinger, for the moral well-being of Catholics with this despicable gesture. If you defend this, you implicate yourself.

Mr. Judge,

If you are going to be downloading, as another blogger suggests, perhaps you will want to get your hands on whatever you can from Vatican II. It was fifty years ago, yesterday that John xxiii announced it would convene.

Of course, it was too little, much, much too late, and almost an embarrassment as we Jews are very much the aggrieved party in this and remain so. And then, so much is left to be done. For instance, we're still waiting for a full release of all Vatican documents dealing with the Nazi era. And then there is the blood money deposited by the murdering Croatian Franciscans into Vatican Bank, where it still resides. That would be the money said Franciscans (fifteen hundred of them) obtained from cutting to pieces Jews, Serbs, and Roma. Etc.

Yesterday, on the anniversary of John xxii's announcement of Vatican II, your Ratzinger re-communicated that psychopathic-Shoah-denying-fascist-Lefebre-lover, Williamson.

What kind of God would approve of that? Not very pious of Ratzinger, was it? Or...was it?

Pun very much intended.

And there were the atrocities committed by the Jews as noted in the OT:

Exodus 32: 3,000 Israelites killed by Moses for worshipping the golden calf.

Numbers 31: After killing all men, boys and married women among the Midianites, 32,000 virgins remain as booty for the Israelites. (If unmarried girls are a quarter of the population, then 96,000 people were killed.)

Joshua:

Joshua 8: 12,000 men and women, all the people of Ai, killed.

Joshua 10: Joshua completely destroys Gibeon ("larger than Ai"), Makeddah, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron, Debir. "He left no survivors."

Joshua 11: Hazor destroyed. [Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (1987), estimates the population of Hazor at ?> 50,000]

TOTAL: if Ai is average, 12,000 x 9 = 108,000 killed.

Judges 1: 10,000 Canaanites k. at Battle of Bezek. Jerusalem and Zephath destroyed.

Judges 3: ca. 10,000 Moabites k. at Jordan River.

Judges 8: 120,000 Midianite soldiers k. by Gideon

Judges 20: Benjamin attacked by other tribes. 25,000 killed.

1 Samuel 4: 4,000 Isrealites killed at 1st Battle of Ebenezer/Aphek. 30,000 Isr. k. at 2nd battle.

David:

2 Samuel 8: 22,000 Arameans of Damascus and 18,000 Edomites killed in 2 battles.

2 Samuel 10: 40,000 Aramean footsoldiers and 7,000 charioteers killed at Helam.

2 Samuel 18: 20,000 Israelites under Absalom killed at Ephraim.

1 Kings 20: 100,000 Arameans killed by Israelites at Battle of Aphek. Another 27,000 killed by collapsing wall.

2 Chron 13: Judah beat Israel and inflicted 500,000 casualties.

2 Chron 25: Amaziah, king of Judah, k. 10,000 from Seir in battle and executed 10,000 POWs. Discharged Judean soldiers pillaged and killed 3,000.

2 Chron 28: Pekah, king of Israel, slew 120,000 Judeans

TOTAL: That comes to about 1,283,000 mass killings specifically enumerated in the Bible.

(Or was it all myth?- many Conservative Jews would say yes it was, the atrocities committed by the Jews as listed in the OT are all myths as are A&E, Abraham, Moses and all the other leaders and prophets)

Lies and pathetic sappy feelings: come to the real church!

Mr. Judge,

If you are going to be downloading, as another blogger suggests, perhaps you will want to get your hands on whatever you can from Vatican II. It was fifty years ago, yesterday that John xxiii announced it would convene.

Of course, it was too little, much, much too late, and almost an embarrassment as we Jews are very much the aggrieved party in this and remain so. And then, so much is left to be done. For instance, we're still waiting for a full release of all Vatican documents dealing with the Nazi era. And then there is the blood money deposited by the murdering Croatian Franciscans into Vatican Bank, where it still resides. That would be the money said Franciscans (fifteen hundred of them) obtained from cutting to pieces Jews, Serbs, and Roma. Etc.

Yesterday, on the anniversary of John xxii's announcement of Vatican II, your Ratzinger re-communicated that psychopathic-Shoah-denying-fascist-Lefebre-lover, Williamson.

What kind of God would approve of that? Not very pious of Ratzinger, was it? Or...was it?

Pun very much intended.

Mark,

In your column on being Catholic you mention: "I", "I'm", "me" and "my" over 50 times.

You mention: "God", "Jesus", "Christ" and "Holy Spirit" only 6 times.

Remember from John's Gospel:
"He must increase
while I must decrease." John 3:30

If holiness is what you seek, may I suggest spending some time with Mother Teresa's sisters, working in a soup kitchen. They are holy people. Also check out anything/everything written by John Paul II. In addition, you may want to cancel you subscription to First Things. Most important of all: Prayer - Contemplation/Action

Really great article. The silent majority among us would definitely like to be considered just Catholic and to consider every other Catholic with the same label. As many of the comments suggest, though, we still have Republican Catholics who insist they are inherently pro-life and Democratic Catholics who insist they wouldn't have an abortion, but are pro-choice. There are civil rights involved, not only for the unborn, however. Look at the infant mortality rate in this country, which is consistent with the Third World. All the energy wasted on name calling based on U.S. party affiliation among American Catholics could be spent on support and persuasion of families. I experienced pre- and post-Vatican II Catholicism. The celebration of the Eucharist belongs in our vernacular. Gregorian chant can be beautiful and more meaningful in English, but Gospel singing works well too. Mostly, though, Catholic education really has been missing the Catholic "mythology," the stories that made the faith come alive for us when we were young students. The saints are very important because they were almost never individuals who were accepted by the hierarchy in their time. They were too radically Christian or considered to be hallucinatory, even. As an educator in a parochial school, rather than trying to teach or preach an ideological position, try telling your students the stories of their heritage. God is much bigger than any theology or theologian, but you might check out the Baltimore Catechism for simplicity of purpose and pedagogy. The basic tenets of the Church really haven't changed and allow yourself and your students to celebrate our first African American President for the civil rights victory it is.

I agree with the poster who said that the church shouldn't become political. The problem is that the democrats have gone so far off the deep end with abortion. It's not just about giving a woman a right to a legal/safe abortion. The pro-abortion lobby has hijacked the democratic party and wants its agenda pushed - that agenda is abortion on demand. It's one thing to make it legal, it's a whole other ballgame when you are sanctioning late-term abortions (c'mon, if people can't make the decision during the first trimester, something is wrong), denying parents the right to notification of an abortion for a minor daughter, using tax payer dollars to fund abortions, forcing (this is part of FOCA) Catholic hospitals and physicians to perform abortions against their ethical code. These actions in my opinion violate my consitutional rights and quite frankly, don't signal any intention of making abortions more rare.

As a "conservative" Catholic, I am concerned about the poor, I disagree with the GOP on the death penalty and illegal immigration, I have not been supportive of the war in Iraq. But, when push comes to shove, these issues cannot trump the abortion issue because abortion is intrinsic evil - meaning it is always and everywhere wrong and therefore carries much more weight than any of the other issues I cited. War, while horrible, isn't necessarily always wrong - okay - maybe it's debatable whether this war is wrong, but that's open for discussion. There's no room for discussion about abortion. It's killing the most innocent and weakest of human beings.

As Mr. Ratzinger's "re-communication" of Bishop Williamson demonstrates, one cannot be "just" anything, that is to say not "just" Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, etc. Dorothy Day knew this and decided for herself, accordingly. Neither are Ratzinger nor the psychopathic-Shoah-denying-fascist-Lefebre follower Williamson "just Catholic."

They are what they are, and what they are affects who you are.

Welcome to the club. We Jews never had a Vatican, and, yet, we could never be just Jews. You wouldn't let us. You still won't. Yes. Welcome to the club.

The issue shouldn't be liberal vs conservative - Jesus didn't make it an issue and I don't see why Catholics would want to.

The issue is how we understand the Church's mission. Is it to teach and bring people to salvation by forming their conscience and uniting them in the body of Christ? Or is it to seek political shortcuts and through government action force people to behave according to church dictates?

The more political the bishops become, the more politics will divide the Church.

Something to think about: Remember when Joseph was told to take Mary and Jesus to Egypt, would they be the equivalent of "illegal aliens" today?

I am a simple person and the simple Mass in the vernacular speaks volumns and I also like when there is a homily given at weekday Masses, whether I agree or disagree with it, it gives one something to think about.

When Jesus walked on this planet, He spoke in the vernacular and face to face, one of the things that Jesus tried to teach us was to think and not let other people do our thinking for us.

We are all different but to me the highest form of worship is a simple thank you.

I also happen to like a lot of the songs at Church that so many people seem to, shall we say, not like, sometimes the simplest words can say much more than they appear to on the surface.

God made us all different and there are many ways that people can and do express their thanks and there are many that do, that do not even believe that God Is Real.

Remember when Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the Father except thru Me", if you notice it doesn't say anything about there not being a multitudinous amount of ways to Jesus, does it?

As I have mentioned before, if one is Catholic then they should also be catholic.

We cannot confine God to a box and we should not even try.

My path is not your path, so how someone else follows is not for me to say, nor anyone else.

God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

What I am most thankful for is God's Plan and that God's Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"God reached down to us through Jesus Christ and we return to the Father through the Son"

Not historically verifiable. It is the teaching of the Apostles handed down through Scripture and the Church. It is a declaration which I may accept or reject. All things considered, I believe that it is true. I cannot prove it one way or the other.

"God reached down to us through Jesus Christ and we return to the Father through the Son??"

Who said so? Historical verification?

Mr. Judge,

Thank you for telling your story. Politically speaking, I am a moderate liberal. Yet I too embraced Roman Catholicism. I think the Church needs both to avoid becoming sterile.

By the way, I am also a subscriber to *First Things*. It is a journal often touted as "conservative", but that (like the Church) has much for a liberal like me to read, enjoy, and ponder. I especially recommend the book reviews. :)

I really enjoyed your article Mark. I wish people would realize that the "church" is made up of sinful human beings. Our actions are testament to our sinfulness. But the Holy Spirit, acting through the church, offers forgiveness for our sins and points us on the true path.

" Mary_Cunningham Author Profile Page:

"PS, I'm afraid that you will find "On Faith" is dominated by anti-Catholics, some of them quite rabid. There are very few regular Catholic posters, they left long ago."

Oh, come on, Ms. Cunningham, you know you're a frothing 'hard-liner' who calls *anyone* 'Anti-Catholic if they don't turn around and blame 'liberalism' or the existence of people different-from-you for the institution's failures and abuses. Or the effects of the policies you defended in the course of trying to get people to support the Religious Right despite the looming disasters you were *warned* about.

"With luck, the abuse directed towards you shouldn't be too bad. This anti-Catholic invective bothered me a lot, which is why I left, but you shouldn't take it personally. "

Hey, if there's a crop of resentful atheists out there, it doesn't mean any opposition or even questioning within your own church is the result of 'outsiders existing.

Just cause your reaping privileges are revoked in some lives, doesn't mean the likes of you didn't sow it.

You're the type that call it 'Catholic bashing' if we don't kneel and cry when you damn the rest of the world.

Boo hoo. :)

Nah, it's not that you aren't liberal or conservative--you just selectively put yourself into any of the neat little boxes or resemble any of the strawmen that you've drawn.
(I think you are pretty conservative, though.)

Hey, do us a favor in your next post. Ease off on the music thing. The only thing worse than bad music is good music that NEVER ENDS.

Mr. Judge,

Although I share some your early experiences (although Lutheran, not Catholic), including the value of music, my outcome was different. The earliest serious doubt of religion I clearly recall was at 14 in my Lutheran church’s Catechism class, listening, thinking “why do you expect us to believe this, but not, say, Astrology?” I'm afraid I was simply never able to make myself believe in that which I could detect no evidence.

Since I have not yet seen even the least bit convincing evidence of invisible supernatural powers, it can be stated I don't believe in the equally supportable tales of astrology; psychics; ghosts; ESP; fortune-telling; UFOs; pyramids and crystals; an omnipotent, omnificent, all-powerful God; or in the ultimate truth of any one religion over any other religion.

That doesn’t mean I'm not grateful for the contributions of many religions through the ages. I'm a choral singer so I appreciate that the Catholic Church sponsored most of the great choral music for nearly a thousand years. I'm an engineer so I appreciate the advances of Islamic states in mathematics and the observational sciences through those centuries the (Christian) Churches of Europe were actively repressing science.

So, while I’m grateful for the friendship of many religionists I know—Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Pagans—that doesn’t mean I have to respect their irrational belief in myth any more than I have to respect their belief in say, Astrology or 9/11 conspiracy theory.

Nice article. It is the first thoughtful Catholic article I have read in this atheistic forum. Most hanging out on here are angry, hurt, confused and unfortunately just plain ignorant of a life of faith and more so of a life if faith in the Catholic tradition. For those that practice faith and truly look at the history and the journey, they would naturally be drawn to the authentic Catholic faith because, as pointed out by Sr Mary, it is the original Christian faith ordained by Christ through Peter and the succession of Popes. Unfortunately, while the magesterium remained true, the translation was often lost. The good of Vatican II also became the confusion and bad of Vatican II. There are movements in the laity as well as the magesterium to correct those. It is a beautiful and loving faith, for all issues, abortion, the poor, prisoners, immigrants, and it is only the translation to politics and personal desires rather than the desires of Christ that pollute the faith. Catholics are just Catholics and it is incumbent to try and be closer to Christ. Obedience is not a bad word. Ultimately Christ was obedient to his father right to the cross and death.

I like the conclusion here. To be Catholic is simply to be living in communion with all the followers of Jesus over the two-thousand year history of the Church. God reached down to us through Jesus Christ and we return to the Father through the Son. That return will look different for different people. I think we underestimate (or more likely fear) the extent to which we are obligated (as beings created in God's image) to express our faith in a manner that is as unique as we individually are. It's easy to look to others for patterns, instructions, and affirmation. It's also easy to criticize, condemn, and ostracize those who we do not relate to or understand. It's very difficult, however, simply to be Free. It is to Freedom that we, as Catholics, are called.

PS, I'm afraid that you will find "On Faith" is dominated by anti-Catholics, some of them quite rabid. There are very few regular Catholic posters, they left long ago.

With luck, the abuse directed towards you shouldn't be too bad. This anti-Catholic invective bothered me a lot, which is why I left, but you shouldn't take it personally.

I wish you all the best.

I liked this article, Mark Judge, because, well, because I have felt the same pull: I love the high gorgeous church music at the Brompton Oratory here in London, (built about 1870 by the Oratorians, John Henry Newman's order--he often preached at the Brompton) I love the beauty and spirtual feel of the place, the intelligent sermons, the way the light plays across the altar. This time of year in the dark Northern European winter, the sun is very low and it enters the nave of the Church from the high rose-shaped windows in the rear as well as from the windows on the side.

Beauty, truth and rarity
Grace in all simplicity

that is the feel of the Oratory. And yet, and yet...my neighbourhood parish is a poor one in East London, one of the original mission churches established by Cardinal Manning (built about 1855, it predates the Oratory) to serve the needs of the desperate Irish poor who had surged into London to work on the docks--immigrants like those poor Mexicans in today's US. And today it is still a mixed group of parishioners--age, colour, ethnic background. And the singing, the hymns are most beautiful. And we sing all together in unison.

So there are both churches. Both holy, both apostolic, both Catholic. Please God they can continue in strength and spirituality. And thank God for keeping them and Catholicism safe in England throughout all the long years of prejudice and persecution.

MC
London

Many of us are EX-Catholics and believe conservative vs. liberal is a moot point.

The Church's history gives me all the evidence I need to know that G-d does not exist within it, but only as a caricature that Paul and the early "Church Fathers" created for their own purposes.

Would Jesus wear Prada while his flock suffers, as does the current pope? Would he hold women hostage to rampant misogyny among the church hierarchy? Would he approve the mass murders done by the Church in the past? Would he have hidden the sins of predatory priests against their own people?

I think not.

For Mark Judge's eyes only: The Contemporary Reality of Christianity

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/ carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

Very good, but I am confused by what you mean about the music at most Catholic Churches. In my experience, _Gather_ and _Glory and Praise_ are inescapable, but more "conservative" hymnals like _Adoremus_ and _Worship_ are hard to find. However, when parishes have them, they seem to pick the most bland songs and/or the most Protestant songs (e.g., "Amazing Grace," which ought to ba banned for its blatant presentation of every major Protestant heresy: eternal security, sola fideas and total depravity).

The problem with the "music" debate is that liberals and conservatives both have it wrong. If you want to know what Catholic music should be, attend an Eastern Divine Liturgy: a capella chant, emphasizing the meaning of the words over style and "performance quality." Even the Epistle and Gospel are chanted. When I am blessed to attend a Byzantine or Maronite liturgy, I feel like I am worshipping the way Jesus Himself would have worshipped.

The problem isn't with liberals or conservative catholics - there is a problem or need for reconciliation within the personal conscience.

Because both sides promote evil and good.

So do I side with conservatives against the poor because they side with the unborn against their desperate or callous parents or do I side with the liberals for the opposite reasons?

Or do I vote for the most competent and harass the group I voted for to see it my way?

Do I base my voting or identification on the assumption that the most competent will do the least amount of damage and give me the greatest potential to undue the damage or mitigrate against what they promote or allow?

Mark,
I do not know why you think conservative Catholics do not care about the poor. I think that is more a product of television and those that are on it that reality. Mercy and resposibility can go hand in hand. One can find conservative Catholics feeding and clothing the poor as readily as liberal ones. Also, one can welcome the stranger, as well as preaching respect for our existing immigration laws. I am also just a Catholic.

This article fascinates me as I am "the flip side", in a way, of Mr. Judge's coin.

I attended what would be considered rather conservative to very conservative Catholic junior high and high schools, after having been in public school until 7th grade. I was "ultra devout" for a number of years, with that devoutness fading as I saw more and more of life and how far less "black and white" it was than "the conservative Church" tried to paint it.

Just so he knows, the unfortunate incidents he recounts regarding his Georgetown Prep teachers were in no way limited to "the liberal" side of the Church. Several of the priests who were at the highest level of administration (and some of whom also taught) at my school were revealed as pedophiles in later years. The principal was known to be alcoholic even while he was in charge. There was a lot of turning of blind eyes, let me tell you.

I have left the Church over exactly some of these issues. I see the Church's treatment of homosexuals (particularly given the number that are within the priesthood) as an absolute abomination and utterly unjustified based upon what we now know (and the Church itself admits is true) about homosexuality. That was pushed along by the realization that I was gay. I do not see abortion as having the primacy the Church gives it, nor do I see it as a social justice issue. If ever there was a choice that should be left to the individual, this is it, and while the Church may offer its teaching regarding that choice it has no business injecting itself into the sphere of civil law regarding it.

In the end, I found that after 37 years of faithfully attending Mass and otherwise participating in the church, I really found the following quotation about it to be true:

It [the Roman Catholic Church] is one of
the most emotionally illiterate organisations
I know, and they need to put their own house
in order first.
~Erin Pizzey

Until or unless the hierarchy of the Church really takes to heart the words of the contemporary hymn that say, "*We* are the body, the body of Christ!," and understand that *we* includes the laity and our perspectives, which are often borne of much greater experience than their own, I doubt I will be back.

Beautiful article, Mark. Despite the many forces pulling us into separate camps, you found the common ground. Well done.