TIMMY2:

The notion that we came from nothing, by nothing, for nothing seems intuitively absurd to me.

I simply do not believe that the universe could start with dead matter having no conscious, and then get something totally different...consciousness. I do not believe that you can have massive amounts of biological information, without an intelligent source to provide that information. In the end, I simply do not believe that Darwinism can best explain the most current data of science.

So in the end we both believe in something, which draws conclusions that go beyond the available evidence. But my faith brings me comfort...what does your faith bring you???

FH123

My goodness are you suggesting that natural selection is a false theory of how we evolved?

As for all of that other blather. It is what it is man. Believing in God doesn't change the fact that your life is the same lie as mine. This isn't a choice issue. If incompatibilist determinism is true, you're stuck in it too. Believing in god doesn't give you free will. Bible God has to actually exist for that to be true. Believing that he does can't create free will. You are stuck with what I am stuck with. It is what it is. The fact that the illusion of free will may be just that, an illusion, is not evidence that God talked to Abraham. It's not evidence that God exists. You know that right?

"timmy2

I did not hear you refute that "pretending to know God and what he wants" is a lie. Does that mean you think that it is good for some people to believe in lie?"

As an athiest, you surely understand that your entire psyche is a lie...an evolutionary trick. You are controlled by instinct as much as any animal, you have simply out-grown your ability to understand that you don't have free-will.

As William Provine says...if Darwinism is true, then there are five inescapable conclusions:

there's no evidence for God
There's no life after death
there's no absolute foundation for right and wrong
there's no ultimate meaning for life
people don't really have free will

In other words, your entire sense of self is a lie. You believe you are above instict, but that is an absurd belief...and a lie that gives you an evolutionary advantage. You lie to yourself everyday...I don't know...do you believe its good to believe in a lie?

P.S. The purpose of the Bible is to point the way to salvation, not to reform society. Slavery was a way of life in biblical times...and not limited to race. The bible was more concerned with the salvation of the slave then the abolishment of the practice. An eternal force would be more concerned with the eternal soul than the hardships of life.

FH123,

Continnued...

"But it is egregious to claim religion as the primary causal agent in human conflict"

No it is not egregious to claim that at all. Religion divides humans into false groups that are not real. There is no real difference between us. Only perceived differences created by the lies of religion that separate us into groups.

"I would argue that Christianity has been the glue that has held the most civilized coalition in history together"

Poppycock. Democracy and freedom is.

"You can certainly argue that it has been a hindrance in some areas"

Most areas.

"but it has been the basic teachings of Jesus that have led to the cultural moderation that we see in most of the nations that have been fostered with Christianity at its center"

The teachings of Jesus are just words created by a human. Those words are available to everyone and can be inspirational to everyone without believing that God the creator placed Jesus in Mary's womb. Those words are beautiful and inspirational, not divine. As an atheist, I can be inspired by the good words attributed to Jesus as human wisdom, and throw away the garbage, like this for example.

Tim 2:11-12
11 Let a woman* learn in silence with full submission. 12I permit no woman* to teach or to have authority over a man;* she is to keep silent.

As an atheist, I don't have to try and interpret this to mean something good, when we all know that it is flat wrong. And yet I can take "love thy neighbor" and "turn the other cheek" to be wonderful bits of wisdom from our common human ancestry and make full use of them without the evil stuff poisoning them.

I did not hear you refute that "pretending to know God and what he wants" is a lie. Does that mean you think that it is good for some people to believe in lie?

FH123,

"Actually, they all believe in the same "God creator of all"...they differ in the details of salvation. They all believe in the God of Abraham"

I didn't say they believed in different God's. I said that they all claimed to know "the real, one true God".
It is not the believing that God exists part that causes all of the trouble, it is the "knowing what God commands of all of us" part that causes all of the trouble in religious conflict. And each of these delusional groups, thinks that they are the ones who truly know what God said, and that the others are WRONG!

Religion is the cause of half of our group conflicts. The other half is cause by nationalism. We need to get rid of religion (irrational beliefs) and nationalism. Watch:

"Gulf War 1 - fought over oil, and undermining a tyrants power"

No countries? No tyrants to take them over, no reason to fight over natural resources.

"Vietnam - fought to curb the spread of communism"

Not so much communism, but totalitarianism. Freedom is of course worth fighting for. But if today's democracies (free countries) began to form a coalition of free democracies and began to peacefully amalgamate their political systems with the goal of having the whole world forming one peoples democracy, then totalitarianism would no longer be an issue.

"Korea - see above"

Exactly.

"WWII - Nationalism, Tyrant, racism"

You got it.

"WWI - Nationalism"

Yup.

"Civil War - Slavery...religion was used on both sides to rationalize, but not a source"

The Bible's endorsement of slavery kept it around much longer than it would have without the endorsement from God. There would have been no slavery in the US in the first place were it not endorsed by both God and Jesus. "Slavery sure feels wrong, but if Jesus said it was okay then I guess it is".

"Revolutionary War - Taxes, freedom from oppression, Colonialism"

You forgot separation of church and state. A critical element.
Regardless. No separate countries, no war.

"timmy2 :
Why is religion bad?
Because it is a lie.
First the Jews claimed that they knew the one true God creator of all.
Then the Christians claimed that no, THEY knew the real one true God creator of all.
Then the muslims claimed that no, THEY knew the real one true God creator of all."

Actually, they all believe in the same "God creator of all"...they differ in the details of salvation. They all believe in the God of Abraham.

"DebChatterjee wrote"
Most (but not all) of the wars and genocide can be linked to religion. Someone says his/her religion is great and others are bad."

Can you give us examples of these wars? Yes the current conflict has religious motives, but also cultural ones.

Gulf War 1 - fought over oil, and undermining a tyrants power.

Vietnam - fought to curb the spread of communism, which U.S. policy-makers mistakenly took to be monolithic in the Soviet Union.

Korea - see above

WWII - Nationalism, Tyrant, racism.

WWI - Nationalism

Civil War - Slavery...religion was used on both sides to rationalize, but not a source.

Revolutionary War - Taxes, freedom from oppression, Colonialism.

You can go back to the "Crusades", but then I can talk about Genghis Khan...Alexander the Great...the Roman Empire...none particularly religious in their motives for conquest.
Wars are fought for many reason...one of which is religion. But it is egregious to claim religion as the primary causal agent in human conflict.

I would argue that Christianity has been the glue that has held the most civilized coalition in history together...that being the West. You can certainly argue that it has been a hindrance in some areas, but it has been the basic teachings of Jesus that have led to the cultural moderation that we see in most of the nations that have been fostered with Christianity at its center.

"RELIGION IS THE OPIATE OF THE MASSES"

Karl Marx

Most (but not all) of the wars and genocide can be linked to religion. Someone says his/her religion is great and others are bad. That's the fuel. It's like saying I'm wearing a blue shirt and if someone is not, those who are not will be killed. Religion is the shame of mankind !

Onofrio,

Part two

YOU: It's not religion, but anger born of love that makes them clash.

Preposterous. Anger born of love??? Love for who? Their ancestors who were killed in religious fighting? My point exactly. No more religious fighting? No more anger born of love for these three.

YOU: Religion's an IT, and these are people.

Yes, exactly. The "it" is bad.
The people are not.
I am not criticizing people, I am criticizing the "it".
It is the "it" that causes them to be bad, whist trying to make them good, which they already were before the "it" came along.

YOU: You remove religion from the world in your "Imagine" dream"

Not just my "imagine" dream. It is the dream of all those who that song resonated with. That's an awful lot of people. I feel in much better company with them than with those who think that their ancestors had special insight into God and chant things like USA! USA! USA! USA! or Death to America!

YOU: "and good people will still fight. Why? Because they love, and hate, and carry wounds in their hearts

Wounds caused by religious differences.
And no, good people will not always fight. They have to have something to fight over. religion is awesome in that category.

Please tell me, Onofrio, if religion were a non issue, what would the three posters you highlight be fighting about????????

Be specific.

Onofrio,

YOU: Religion may very well be a portion of humanity's woes"

A very large portion.

YOU: but you do ill to carp about it in your too-easy reductionist diatribe"

Reductionist? Nonsense. Rationalist is more like it.
Diatribe? Is everything you disagree with a "diatribe"?
lol

YOU: "The end to war is not achieved by the end of religion, as you lazily dream. That's just replacing one war with another"

What is the new war you speak of? I call for no war against religion. Just rational criticism of specific irrational beliefs, as we do with all areas of discourse, except religion for some unknown reason.

YOU: When it comes to strife, Timmy2, religion is only part of the picture

A very large part.

YOU: Take an example from this very thread. Three of my favourite posters, Paganplace, Arminius, and Farnaz - all religious in different ways - have fallen to virtual blows"

Thank you for making my point. Smart people. But religion causes them to have differences that are not real. These three have nothing else to fight about.

YOU: It may seem that this is all due to religious difference - Paganplace knows well the dark side of all the "book people"; Farnaz will not let the long sorrow of the Jews be ignored; Arminius tries hard to show that Christians aren't always the bad guys"

Yes yes. These three are all humans. The only differences they have are religion. What would these three have to argue about if it were not for religion??

YOU: Each is passionate; none are bigots, in my view

Same here.

YOU: Is religion the source of their strife? I think not.

??????? Of course it is. You just helped me outlined how it is.

YOU: Because other people have maimed and been maimed, tormented and been tormented, hated and been hated, these good people are now at war. Each is motivated, in a sense, by love and loyalty

Loyalty to what?
Our kind. Our people. Our tribe.
religion religion religion.
We should all be loyal to the human race, not to our individual tribes.

YOU: They are incensed on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves. They stand up for what they experience as good when it is assailed by others"

Me too. I am incensed on behalf of 700 million muslim women who from the time of childhood are forced to live under the most misogynistic ideology every imagined my a human mind. They can not defend themselves so here are people like me and Ayan Hirsi Ali to help out any way we can.

Hi, Onofrio,

My duel with Farnaz was simply devolving into a shouting match to see who could deliver the most insults. I finally remembered that anger is of no use in such a situation, and withdrew from the fight. I did try to offer her an olive branch, but she threw it back at me. Well, perhaps the passing of time will make for cooler heads on both sides. I was, of course, very wrong to be so pissed off, regardless of any perceived justification. Live and learn, even at my advanced age.

Hello there, Arminius

I hope the recent flare-up between you and Farnaz can move from burning to erstwhile. I don't want to trivialise your or her anger, but from my bystanding perspective it's sad to see good minds enraging each other when there's so much culpable mindlessness about.

Onofrio,

Thank you very much for the kind words. I wish there were more posters like you.

BTW, Paganplace and I get on pretty well. We had a royal donnybrook about a year ago. I came away bruised and wiser, and gained a friend.

Farnaz, however... that's a different story. No further comment on that.

Timmy2,

Religion may very well be a portion of humanity's woes, but you do ill to carp about it in your too-easy reductionist diatribe. The end to war is not achieved by the end of religion, as you lazily dream. That's just replacing one war with another.

When it comes to strife, Timmy2, religion is only part of the picture. Take an example from this very thread. Three of my favourite posters, Paganplace, Arminius, and Farnaz - all religious in different ways - have fallen to virtual blows. All of them are subtle thinkers and straight-talkers, with spirit and humour aplenty (says this bystander, at risk of copping a blow). Yet they have all managed to enflame each other fairly quickly. It may seem that this is all due to religious difference - Paganplace knows well the dark side of all the "book people"; Farnaz will not let the long sorrow of the Jews be ignored; Arminius tries hard to show that Christians aren't always the bad guys. Each is passionate; none are bigots, in my view. Is religion the source of their strife? I think not. Because other people have maimed and been maimed, tormented and been tormented, hated and been hated, these good people are now at war. Each is motivated, in a sense, by love and loyalty. They are incensed on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves; they stand up for what they experience as good when it is assailed by others. It's not religion, but anger born of love that makes them clash. It's not the details of doctrine that sets them ablaze; it's the reflexive struggle against imbalance, injustice, and ignorance - both perceived and real. At the moment, I'm thinking "Thank god they haven't got nukes". As for these individuals, so for groups, tribes, and nations. Except some of THEM have nukes.

Religion's an IT, and these are people. You remove religion from the world in your "Imagine" dream, and good people will still fight. Why? Because they love, and hate, and carry wounds in their hearts, and see death and suffering arrive near and far, sooner and later, even as they face their own deaths.

The Sun wept.

No answer, I know.

Why is religion bad?

Because it is a lie.

First the Jews claimed that they knew the one true God creator of all.

Then the Christians claimed that no, THEY knew the real one true God creator of all.

Then the muslims claimed that no, THEY knew the real one true God creator of all.

These are all lies.
They are all false claims to being the keeper of the one true morality.

How could lies, claiming to know the one true word of morality from the one true creator of all, cause anything but the horror that they have caused, and continue to cause?

And yet these blind religious apologists pretend that church bake sales, and bible waving missionaries, make these lies that have caused unspeakable unquantifiable human horror for millennia, a net plus for society.

Astounding.

Now somebody counter with "how do you know they are lies?'

PLEASE!!!

Some people confuse the statement "religion is bad" for the
statement "religious people are bad".

There is a difference.

Religion is bad.

Religious people are victims of brainwashing. Not bad people.

Generally they are good people who've had their goodness hijacked by an evil ideology.

Deb Chatterjee,

"This attitude is pure and unadulterated hypocrisy."

Hypocrisy, religion, and exclusion go hand in hand. Rock stars singing for peace is embarrassing representing the three big powerful, monied religions is nauseating.

It just underscores the obvious fact that this is not the 1960s. They have nothing to offer but self-indulgent hogwash. If they want peace, the place to start would be with their record sales, investment portfolios, wealth.

They should look very closely at where their money is all the way down the line, and withdraw it quickly from transnationals, etc., that have brought us to where we are. NEXT, they should bring together all in the entertainment media to do the same.

They should then align themselves with ethicists, economists, etc., who are in a position to do something decent for all oppressed peoples in this world. Put your money where now your bankrupt morality resides.

Or kindly shut up and shove it.

Songs of peace?

Why should we need them when two thirds of the world belong to religions of peace?

Oh....Right.

to share such a simple message of peace and end up with this hostility reflected in postings is perfectly ironic. without the idea of seperation between 'beings' and the 'external world' the unified reality pointed to by the sages is revealed. no 'free willed' being ever 'did' anything.... good or bad. the trinity is an illusion as cited in article. no thing that appears is real as it changes comes and goes. only the REALITY is constant and never threated or harmed. it all is working to Plan!

This WaPo blogsite is becoming a safe haven for the intellectually indulgent and their hypocrises: Deepak Chopra, Salman Ahmad and Melissa Ethridge.

Songs and philosophy alone don't solve nothin'. Its people's collective will: recognize what's evil and deal with it squarely.

My view is that we have not collectively dealt with, or do understand what radical Islam is or its manifestations. Just pause and think: Salman Ahmad's home country Pakistan has been at odds with India over past 60 years. Who is at fault is in the eye of the beholder. (It could be India or Pakistan: which is extremely debatable.) To avenge the past injustices Pakistan's ISI had formed the Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LeT) and Jaish-e-Muhammad (JeM) to wage a proxy guerrila war that survives to date by clinging onto an ideology that is a potent mix of radical Islamic doctrine of Jihad against kafirs (Hindus), and, the contemporary Pakistani media generated visceral hatred for a secular democratic India and its recent economic success in the global scale.

The recent fallout in Mumbai India where LeT terrorists, and yes I know that Pakistan is vehemently denying all LeT links in a sign of its failed desparation, could never have been prevented if Gandhist ideologies were embraced. After all, Gandhi's own duplicity with ideologies and nepotism, hypocrisy don't make him an icon as some worthless western scholars have been doing to earn some extra dollars.

So, my question is: if Deepak Chopra, Melissa Ethridge, Salman Ahmad's views were played again and again with earshot of the hapless victims of horror of 26/11, how would that then solve the problem of war/terrorism ? One one hand India (or any victim country) cannot prevent Islamic terrorist attacks; yet some of the erudite people preach this "peace, peace and peace for all and everyone at any cost" in the aftermath of a terrorist attack that only ends up shielding the wrongdoers (Muslim terrorists) from all reaches of justice. This attitude is pure and unadulterated hypocrisy.

Happy Holidays Bloggers, and, to Deepak Chopra, Salman Ahmad and Melissa Ethridge !

Spark,

September 11, 2001 !!!!! for starters.

Sing a song of peace but also strive to find justice for the opressed.
To shed hate and to love others need seeds of good intentions.
To think " I am above " cannot help.

CCNL:

I try to read your comments "between" the lines.
The way you are personal in throwing insults on Islam seems you had a personal bitter "episode"
involving a muslim , maybe in your childhood?

The way you cry on each and every post here, signifies that there is something mutilated for which you cries. Can you please share with us, what happened to you at the hands of a muslim.

Paganplace, Paganplace, Paganplace,

But there is all "the yucky" in doing so under the Sun, Moon and/or stars!!

Cause, see, I'm a simple Pagan. Having duly celebrated, I'm going to stay up as long as I can, then I'm going to go off to bed to sleep with my same-sex partner, and if I can't stay up alnight allon my own, I'll know others are doing this. And the Sun will come out tomorrow.

There will be a tomorrow.

And hail to the dawn.

I don't care how you may try to twist it so it's somehow my fault someone used your book to hurt *me* so it's ok to try and blame me for whatever your damage is about whatever the same people did to you, Farnazz.

You can have your book. I'm sorry if I was ever party to anyone stealing it off you.

But the Sun *will* come up tomorrow. And I will still be here, and what was done to *me* will still have happened, and the whole world is going to have to get up in the morning and find some way to deal with life.

The light returns.

Like it or not, ready or not.

Every year.

Every day.

Every life.

Dig?

I mean, you want your 'OT' to yourself.

Take it.

Keep it.

I'll be the first to say it's brought nothing but grief wherever it went.

So take it, already. Don't look at *me* of all people.

Of course, Farnazz, if what you're tring to sa is that the rape and beatings I've been through in the name of things you still claim are authoritative were all in my *head,* well, what a fricking relief *that* is, now I can stop 'playing the victim' and shuffle off and be a contented third-class citizen cause it makes *you* happy.

Or.

The light returns.

No idea what it is you're being all attached to, Farnazz, but ....it's a new year. The Wheel turns, the light returns, and whatever your problem is with me and my dar one is... Will go the way of all the other bigotries.

You call them 'ancient.'

Nothing the human spirit can't deal with, though.

Seen it before.

Whatever.

You'll get your chance, if you're that interested being an authority what this kind of life is all about.

Arminius,

I understand metaphor. Try history: Rosemary Reuther, Faith and Fratricide.

Maybe you'll understand metaphor, and its dangers.

Farnaz,

"I'll meet you in Hell" is a metaphor, an insult, if you will. I have no idea if Hell exists, or Purgatory, or Heaven. This does not concern me. I frankly don't give a damn about any of it. None of this is a part of the path that I follow.

Arminius,

Hell is a Christian concept. Hopefully, you will see yourself in Purgatory, since you can't seem to do it here, and float up to Heaven, cleansed.

Your arrogance is astonishing. You are incapable of self-reflection. Your bigotry does you no good, but you cannot understand that.

You have free will. Rosemary Reuther, Faith and Fratricide.

Correction: I meant to say, "I'll meet you in Hell."

Farnaz,

My olive branch has apparently been rejected.

So, then, clasp your Book tightly, and try to allow none to read it. I simply don't care, I will still read the wisdom and beauty that can be found there.

I'll see you in Hell.

Arminius:

Your "OT" is it? Try the suggested mirror test. There are none so blind....

Read--

Rosemary Reuther, Faith and Fratricide.
.............................................
Gertrude (Arminius): Hamlet, thou hast thy father much offended.

Hamlet (Farnaz): Mother, you have my father much offended.

Hamlet 3.4

Farnaz,

YOU: I'm not at war with all Christians. However, the majority have been at war with us.

ME: Recently, this has not been the case. You have not been specific about which Christians deserve to be bashed. And, sadly, many do deserve it.

YOU: You are acting like a hypocrite, and a name-calling hypocrite at that. You "inherited" the Tanakh? From whom, prey tell? And who told you to refer to it as the "OT"?

ME: What the hell should we do, pay you copyright fees? Yes, it is our OT, deal with it. Disagree, fine, no prob, but we have the right to read it.

YOU: And you know damned well that I posted on the horrors in India and elsewhere, places, people, events, that your parochial self knows nothing about.

ME: Yes, you have, although your posts have stressed the ongoing troubles of the Jews much more than that of others. This is not bigotry on your part, I do the same, but we are both guilty of not having a broader view.

YOU: Jews have their own subjectivity as Onofrio, a Christian, tried to tell you. But you didn't listen.

ME: Of course you have your own subjective views, and I freely recognize this. Do you recognize the subjective views of Christians, such as including your Book in their list of holy works?

YOU: Take a good look in the mirror. Do you see an accusing bigot?

ME: No I don't. Stop accusing and give details and quotes.

-------------

I'm offering you an olive branch. Let us forget the anger, and be adults about this. If I have offended you, I apologize, and I will easily overlook the many times you have offend me and my faith. There are better ways to live than swapping bitter words.

Arminius,

I'm not at war with all Christians. However, the majority have been at war with us.

You are acting like a hypocrite, and a name-calling hypocrite at that. You "inherited" the Tanakh? From whom, prey tell? And who told you to refer to it as the "OT"?

And you know damned well that I posted on the horrors in India and elsewhere, places, people, events, that your parochial self knows nothing about.

Jews have their own subjectivity as Onofrio, a Christian, tried to tell you. But you didn't listen.

Take a good look in the mirror. Do you see an accusing bigot?

If so, there may be some hope for you. You, then, may recover from the hypocrisy some day.

I didn't throw the ball. Hence, you still have it.

Yeah, Farnaz, you have a nice evening too.

What the hell with your Book? We INHERITED it. Sure, many of us have screwed it up. But do you have exclusive rights to it? Our Book, which you despise, along with despising all Christians (except for Pseudo, whom you excuse because of his poetry), anyway, our Book is freely available to all. Can you say that?

Somehow you have morphed from a nice person into something that seems to be aspiring to being a world class B****. I do not want to believe that, not at all. But your posts are accusing, and horribly defensive. Don't tell me about hypocrisy. Or at least explain it to me.

Yeah, I have ranted. Badly. But I don't know how else to get a reaction from you. And you still have to explain yourself. Perhaps I do too.

So here we are at war. Will we continue to lob our internet bombs, or try to sit down at a peace table?

The ball is now in your court.

Paganplace, I'm not mainstream. None of us Js are.
Gay Pagans of Christian descent (Christians) are mainstream. You all want to remember, suffer for everybody, except us. You either condone what you and everyone else does to us or forgive yourselves. Or blame us.

It's a new day, Sista. It don't work that way anymore.

Arminius,

You arrogant Christian SOB with your "OT." When did I ever ignore any of those dead? You despicable hypocrite.

Don't you ever open your filthy trap to me. Cuz you ain't got no idea what this Persian J is capably of rhetorically, none whatsoever. And, Arminius, that goes for a lot of us J people.

GET USED TO IT, HYPOCRITE.

Hi, Friend Paganplace,

"This is the darkest night of the year.
Let's make the dawn a good one. "

Let's do that, I'm with you. Every day is a blessing, but perhaps this one more so.

Farnaz,

"This family of Jews were targeted RACIALLY TARGETED because they were Jews."

I am very F***ing painfully aware of that, and by damn don't you EVER accuse me of anything else. Does this give you an excuse to ignore the other dead, there and elsewhere?

So quote me the stuff. And while you're in the neighborhood, explain in detail why you are disappointed in you for not toeing your line in the sand. I'll give it back to you, because you have really, really, dismayed you. I thought you had a soul.

Basically, you wanna use 'definitions' to hurt *me.* I don't wanna spend my next lifetime accumulating what you book people do to each other over it.

Dig?

This is the darkest night of the year.

Let's make the dawn a good one.

Also, Farnazz.

If it so happens someone's torturing children in some way there's some difference between how mainstream monotheist religions handle looking at and arguing about such a thing?

Shhh.

Most of the lot of youse think it'[s equally clear-cut you should hurt me wherever possible.

No one particularly cares to admit their 'ultimate morality' *in fact causes* all manner of *things you'd rather pontificate at me about than look at in your own da n houses.*

capiche?

Well, I'll tell you this, Farnazz. From experience.

Anyone who can't face their past.

Cannot face me.

Yeah, well, whatever. Don't like racism, sexism, etc.

Some years ago, a young Israeli ran into the Cave of Macpelah to bring out ancient sacred objects in the midst of gunfire. He was killed, but the objects were saved. That was his choice.

All Gavriel, Rivka, their baby boy and the other six Jews did was be Jewish. The animal murdering terrorists were given specific instructions to torture them to death. All of this has been well -reported and documented.

So, these animals tortured the young man and his wife, eight-months pregnant to death.

THEY DIDN'T BLOW THEM UP. THEY TORTURED THEM TO DEATH IN FRONT OF THEIR TWO-YEAR OLD SON WHO WAS TAKEN TO SAFETY BY HIS HEROIC NANNY COVERED IN HIS MOTHER'S BLOOD.

Always seems like some people's identities are more important than others, now, don't it.

Farnaz2

"Like the recently targeted Taj and Oberoi hotels in Mumbai, the Islamabad Marriott was also a place of culture, poetry and music before it was blown up by terrorists"

Well, whoever blew whatever was in there up up was a bunch of fricking idiots. Full stop. May be I don't much approve of a lot of Christianity, but F me if I wouldn't defend a Vermeer or a piece of Handel (if you could contain music like that) with callous disregard for personal safety.

If violence would have stopped the Taliban guys who took it upon themselves to blow up the big Buddha statues people somehow seem to have managed to live with all these years till *their* arrogance came along...

I'm a peaceful person, but you would not have to ask me twice.

If there is such a thing as a race or a people or a tradition, that of my ancestors is of warrior-poets, who *will* take it to the wall to preserve a bit of beauty or a shred of honor or grant to our descendants at least a *shred* of honesty and justice.

Who tries to erase evidence or understanding of anyone ever having thought differently... is an enemy of the future.

And that's the only kind of enemy there really is.

Not a bad song this column seems to have put up, on first listen, anyway, though.

More than disappointed. Ashamed.

Arminius:

A couple of threads back, Onofrio posted something in which he mentioned your name. I'm sure your recall it. Jamil was in that trialogue as well. If you don't recall it, I'd be happy to post it here. It just might give you some insight into yourself, and empathy you lack.

This family of Jews were targeted RACIALLY TARGETED because they were Jews.

Arminius, I'm disappointed. Disappointed.

Farnaz, once Jekyll, now Hyde,

Yes, what you related was horrible. But are you aware that hundreds of people died in Darfur that day, many by the same methods used that you described? Does your wailing at the Wall help anything at all? What there is positive? Do you present any solution outside of continued hatred and conflict?

The path to peace ain't kumbaya, not by a long shot. Gandhi preached peace, he was murdered. MLK preached peace, he was murdered. JFK was a man of peace, he was murdered. The list goes on. The path to peace is a trail of tears, but worth the effort.

Don't you have any hope or compassion left? What the hell has happened to you?

Like the recently targeted Taj and Oberoi hotels in Mumbai, the Islamabad Marriott was also a place of culture, poetry and music before it was blown up by terrorists

Hmmm. NOw what is missing from this list of "targets," Salman? Oh, whatever could it be, Salman?

Could it perchance be the targeted CHABAD? That would be the house where twenty-eight-year-year old Rabbi Gavriel and his younger wife Rivka, eight months pregnant, were tortured to death in front of their two-year-old son.

The two-year-old Moshe was brought out covered in his mother's blood. These targeted Jews were two of eight tortured to death in Mumbai.

I AM ASHAMED FOR YOU, SALMAN.

I'm ashamed for all of you.

CCNL's post is revolting and offensive. How can any human defecate on hope and beauty as he does?

"Ring the Bells of Peace" may be the single most beautiful song I have ever heard. I was moved to open weeping at the joy and hope.

Without this joy, this beauty, this hope, and without such glorious music and song, we will lose our humanity.

Thank you, Melissa, Salman, and Deepak. I will get a bell and ring it.

Ringing the Bells of Reality

(the lyrics)

O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, illiterate and hallucinating,
O Islam, Islam, violent Islam,
Moha greed and lustful, womanizing,
Was he too,

O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Moha, warmongering and hateful,
Was he too,

O Islam, O Islam, violent Islam,
Sunnis of hate, Shiites of late,
Even Pretty Wingie Thingies cannot
Save us from O Islam's hate.

Save us from these Islamic FEMs,
Flaws, Errors, Muck and Stench,
They ooze from the rocks of earth,
Like worms of death and wrench.

Born, Bred, and Brainwashed too,
Whatever, whatever to do?
Truth, Truth, History and Truth,
Let it Ring True, Freedom, Freedom
Freedom at Last and much left to do!!!

(Add your own melody)