Hello kert1 :

I guess that I lost that post. Often if you lose one it is a good one. Why don't they take the mediocre into the void? Can you help me understand THAT absolute?
I will try to come back with some contemplations of my own later. Gotta go now.

Just to see if this posts...

Hello kert1
I just sent you a reply that I quite liked in response to your last post on absolutism. I hope that it is not lost into the Unknown, as it was "held for approval" by the gods of the blog.... I hope to see it. It offers some other points to contemplate.
I appreciate your input. I respect your fulfillment in your beliefs. I question, as I am prone to do, aspects of it.
Best, Justin

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is another example but basically just the same point as above. There is an absolute reason why something happens as it does."

Not an absolute defined by Newtonian words, if you really want to try and nitpick a metaphor about religious words *as* 'absolutes.'

Newtonian word-based 'laws' are in fact not accurate outside a certain relativistic 'rest frame,' and don't compute at all on quantum scales.

So they are, scientifically *useful* in certain common situations, but by no means 'absolute' as a 'dogma.' Nor does any modern science that needs to operate outside a terrestrial scale or degree of precision *take* them to be.

By Newton's 'laws,' a television tube such as you may be reading these words through, *wouldn't work.* You need relativistic precision.

And even that's not 'absolute,' not on a quantum level.

JustillThen,
Well you are a post-modernist if I ever have seen one.

"I think absolutism is basically impossible to prove but is evident everywhere."

Science is a great example. It shows that we can predict what happens with most certainty. Like gravity. We don't understand it and can't describe what it is but it happens absolutely every time.

"There is one cause for all actions, not multiple."

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is another example but basically just the same point as above. There is an absolute reason why something happens as it does.

"...without absolutes we have nothing."

Who even says conciencness is real? If there are no absolutes we don't know. Maybe it's all an illusion. Some people believe this. Of course I don't.

The point is we make our best assumptions on these things and strive for truth. I agree, we are contious, we do love and hate. These are absolutes that we can grasp and show. But none of them are proven. We simply do the best we can.

Huh? We are alive, no? Have ye no consciousness? Are you not aware of yourself? Do you not love? Hate?

"Truth is an absolute and I'm sure it exists. Because our truth is imperfect doesn't mean we don't search for it."

I have to disagree completely with you on this. Ultimate truth does not change and can't. I can't believe this for many reasons. Namely, if truth doesn't exist then nothing is wrong. That's right: genocide, rape, stealing. The best you can say is I disagree. But that accomplishes nothing since someone else just disagrees back. Since there are no absolutes, no truth, there is nothing to argue about.

It also makes sense that we can't know perfect truth since humans are terribly imperfect. That is why I look to God for truth. It makes sense that some things that are true won't make perfect sense to me, at least at first. I look to God to help me in those situations.

Worldviews do matter. I agree governments do need to be pluralistic because you can't force people to believe a certain way, but the government must adhere to natural law the best it can. Without these absolute truths that hold society together, it will fall apart and anarchy will reign. We must base government on truths, morality, and natural law, which are all basically the same thing. Otherwise, laws are simply human whims and can change in a moment.

I accept the Bible as the Word of God. When properly interpretted it shows us God's will for us. Without it, mankind must try to struggle to find truth. It's not impossible to find, just really hard.

I take the Bible to be true because it has been tested by 2000 years of Western Civilization. It has also had over 2000 prophesies fulfilled. It is known to be geographically and historically correct. By all measure, I know, it is God's Word. I take it on faith after examining it throuroughly.

I hope you hear this testimony and consider it.

Kert1:
I do not mean in my last post to negate your deeper beliefs, your spirituality, your faith. I am a believer in God, in Spirit, in a Divine Source.
But none of us KNOW it. None can validate spirit at all, really, much less Soul. Concepts that I like and believe in. But there is yet to be a understanding of It but blind guesses and "faith". Because, I believe, it is Unknowable. It is beyond human comprehension.
What we can easily show is how humans are happy to do deep ugly to each other in attempts to enforce their faith-based belief systems. Deep beauty is done as well. It is the deep ugly, and christianitys' belief in absolutes, that makes it difficult for you evangelicals to get your morality legislated for all to adhere to.
What huge arrogance that anyone really believes that they have some monopoly on knowing what God wants of me.
I stand with Tim Harrison and look for reconciliation and peaceful cooperation and coexistance with my evangelical family, and ask the same of them.
It will make the continued search for the Absolute far more enjoyable. And appreciated.
Justin

Hello KERT1 :
"I think absolutism is basically impossible to prove but is evident everywhere."

How do you come to this?....Faith. Belief. The assumption that it is true because it answers your belief, but is itself unsupported. How is absolutism evident in a validatable way?
The most obvious example that comes close to absolutism in the natural (Created) world is what I suggested. That there is absolute individuation. NOTHING is exactly the same. EVERYTHING is diverse. Opposite of absolute Unity, or Sameness.
That we may have come from a Unity is wholly theoretical and as yet unproven. What can be supported is unique individuality functioning in cooperation or in conflict, (still a form of cooperation!), with other individuality.

"There is one cause for all actions, not multiple."

Please validate that belief. I disagree with it.

"...without absolutes we have nothing."
Huh? We are alive, no? Have ye no consciousness? Are you not aware of yourself? Do you not love? Hate?

"Truth is an absolute and I'm sure it exists. Because our truth is imperfect doesn't mean we don't search for it."
Truth seems to me a transient and mutable beast. It is highly personal, as is morality, and cannot be held to absolutes. What can be shown to stay immutable in conflicting environments may be called true, perhaps. Moral and spiritual 'Truth' is extremely mutable. The existence of a Universal Truth Epicenter, (UTE I now dub thee), is a great idea and I personally like it. But it cannot be pinned down. God does not show his face, except as a deeply personal experience. Different for all.
I do not accept any spiritual text as a Perfect Utterance of the Truth of the Unknowable. They are drawn by the hands of men, in my view, and so by most religious principles imperfect.

We come back to justifications for legislating morality based of assumptions of what is true, without substantiation, and the faith that these assumptions are the Truth.

Over the years, there has been a concentrated effort on the part of the religious right to infiltrate politics, starting with local school boards, city council, etc. The overall goal was to get enough evangelicals into the government at the state and national levels to enact the Christian right agenda.

I strongly disagree with this. I have no problem with Christians practicing what they preach. But I have a big problem with them trying to tell me what to believe and how to live my life.

I find it hypocritical that Christian's have such a problem with the termination of a pregnancy but no such problems with killing innocent people in a war we started against a country that did nothing to deserve it except to have a large oil reserve. Starting a war with Iraq was the most un-Christian thing I can imagine and yet where was the outrage?

The so-called separation of church and state is for your benefit was well as mine. You would not want a person of a faith other than or contrary to yours telling you how you must live your life and what you can and cannot do. That is why this principle was enacted.

I think absolutism is basically impossible to prove but is evident everywhere.

There is one cause for all actions, not multiple. Things either are or they aren't. The problem is that as humans we have a hard time showing something as absolute, but without absolutes we have nothing. Truth is an absolute and I'm sure it exists. Because our truth is imperfect doesn't mean we don't search for it.

Remember "there are no absolutes" is an absolute and can't exist.

TIMJOEBOB:

"3) I'm prepared to go to work. How about you? Start by volunteering wherever needed. Start by working alongside those who disagree ideologically with you. Get down in the trenches and love the unlovable; touch the untouchable; take the first step. Take the higher road. Do the right thing, no matter the cost to yourself. Serve.

Great sentiments, and a great direction to go regardless of whether we feel we won or lost yesterday. Positive and forward moving. Thanks again.
Justin

Hello MOMOFTHREE :
"I am an evangelical Christian and I disagree with the statement that "Evangelicals want religious control of government".
"I am not looking for religious harmony, because like you said, religious freedom was a founding principal of this country. We simply want "moral" absolutes."

With respect, MOM :-), your statement does not make sense to me. Absolutism is unachievable in this world. Show me one place where is exists. Everything about Creation, at least in the world that we are existing, is about pluralism, in terms of the balance being held by the neccessary interplay between opposite forces. Day and night, male and female, light and dense. Moralities of good and evil are relative. We who consider ourselves essentially good could come to 'relatively' agreeable terms of what is evil, but not absolute terms. We are all individuals, created as such, and there is not one, twins included, clones include, that are absolutely identical.
The attempt by social conservatives to legislate morality will always be fought against because it goes against Nature. Internal and external Nature. Just as you may always fight against the idea that abortion, ( I don't know if this is an issue for you, but guess so), if you feel it is immoral, but legal.
There will never be a complete consensus of what is an absolute moral code to live by for all. Even if you hold the Bible up as the sole source for morality, as most evangelicals do, it is still impossible. Assuming getting past questions of its' validity and purity, it is still subject to interpretation. There is wide variation of interpretation even inside the conservative christian movement.
You will still seek to influence government, but recognize that is what you are doing and that there is no absolute morality to enact. And it is wrong to do, I believe, given the nature of this world. The Creator of this gave us one "absolute", perhaps. Utter diversity of life and spirit.

"Welcome to the Warren Harding administration, Part II."

I'd *take* Harding over more Bush, any day. :)

Welcome to the Warren Harding administration, Part II.

Now I wonder if this *is* the same 'impartialobserver' some of us remember. :)

Yes, it *is* a proud day for America, and I'm glad I lived to see it. Just considering the world I was born to, and then to see a black man be elected President: (I can't say this was really a motivating factor in my support, with all the rest going on, but seeing it done last night... Wow. )

The thing about certain kinds of 'prophecies' is that people tend to unconsciously try to fulfill them. To some, they offer a sense of 'control' (even if in some cases they prove to simply paralyze with subconscious fears and helplessness,) and thus enlist people's own minds to some of the presumptions that they incorporate.

Call it Spidey's way of 'bargaining,' here, 'Well, God will nuke the Democrats and we'll have total world domination later.'

Could even be a sort of progress, there. :)

"Reserve your tears guys. A lot of trouble is still coming. Knowing the prophecy, Im truly glad that the Republicans will not be the one to face the troubles ahead."

Well, doubtless that's part of the GOP plan, Spidey, borrow and spend and leave the Democrats to clean up their disastrous messes, like a bad recession and a two-trillion dollar bill to worry about.

I still say, Evangelicals who want to distance themselves from the abuses of the Bush administration, well, Dubya's still in office another couple of months, and is trying to rush through all manner of deregulation and cuts to environmental protection in order to please his corporate buddies and make our job as hard as he can.

Evangelicals might be a good voice to tell Bush, 'No more of this.'

They seem to be the only ones he even pretends to listen to. (And look where that got us.)

Good Morning, Impartialobserver,

And a bright and beautiful morning it is. Thank you for your words. Some of us believers try to walk the walk, but not talk the talk unless asked. As Gandhi said, "If you Christians would live like Jesus, instead of just talking about him, then everybody would want to be a Christian."

The Spideys and Bin Ladens of the world have done serious harm to religion. Prophesies are for those too weak to face reality. Kinda like astrology.

Spider: Actually, prophecies are for ignorant, superstitious fools who are too weak to realize that we all hold the future in our hands, and nothing is pre-ordained.

Arminus: You are quite right - my apologies if I have offended members of the silent majority of the faithful who are content to keep their beliefs to themselves. Unfortunately, much like the way that fundamentalists have poisoned perceptions of islam, the theo-con movement has tarnished all christians.

In any event, it is a proud day for America. I never thought that we would see it happen.

Spidermean: Enjoy the next 8 years. Perhaps you should move to some theocracy, like Iran or something...

"I am not looking for religious harmony, because like you said, religious freedom was a founding principal of this country. We simply want "moral" absolutes."

It may not have occurred to you but religious freedom and religious harmony exist together. You don't have one without the other.

momofthree- there are no moral absolutes and what you basically mean are "your" moral absolutes. Yours is the type of thinking that drove millions of us to reject McCain/Palin. You don't want religious freedom- which is a cornerstone of our system of government, you want your religious freedom no matter it infringes on my religious freedom.

time to reanalyze and grow up. If you can't abide by the constitution, there are plenty of "morally absolute" countries you can go live in. Of course, you may not like living there, but you may develop a real appreciation for "religious freedom."

read the Bible Arminius or let your son read it for you.

What will you say to God, Spidey?

He will ask you why you hated His children, and presumed to know His mind.

What will you say?

Prophecies are for the wise and fools won't ever understand them. Doomsday is getting nearing and it just got a turbocharge last night.

I am an evangelical Christian and I disagree with the statement that "Evangelicals want religious control of government". Yes, some of us base our vote on moral issues alone. Is that so bad to want men and women in office who have the same moral convictions as we?
" This country is too large and too diverse to apply one set of religious absolutes to every citizen." I am not looking for religious harmony, because like you said, religious freedom was a founding principal of this country. We simply want "moral" absolutes.

Poor, benighted Spidey still squats on his rotting dungheap of demented prophesies, and wishes destruction on us all. What will you say to God, Spidey?

and a lovely morning to you too arminius!

spidey- go stuff yourself. Hope you have a miserable 8 years :-)

Reserve your tears guys. A lot of trouble is still coming. Knowing the prophecy, Im truly glad that the Republicans will not be the one to face the troubles ahead.

Let the Democrats rule for 8 years. That is my wish.

A new dawn is coming where stupidity will be wiped out off the face of the earth.

God reserves that time for Conservative Christian Republicans to rule by then, and not now.

So sit back and relax and see how Jezebel builds her tower and witness how it will collapse.

Good Morning, Sparrow!

And a wonderful morning it is! America has hope in a new beginning, as does the world. I, too, wept with joy.

Tim- you'll find most of us with you! Ignore the spideys- the people who elected Obama aren't looking for revenge but for hope and leadership. there will always be fools and fanatics. they'll fall by the wayside.

I hope your church and your family will understand and reach out too.

Tim,

Thanks again for chiming in. Yes, we all must roll up our sleeves and get busy. There is so much damage to fix, so much to be rebuilt. But it is a bright, clear morning, and, by damn, we're gonna do it!

God bless you, sir.

The people in Chicago were like people on a bus going to a picnic. What are they happy about? Do they know where the bus is going? VERY CLUELESS.

This day is the start of a countdown towards their doom. This is the moment where you can truly say that IGNORANCE IS BLISS until the wreckage (a very big one) occurs.

Yes it is a historic day. This is the day when I think Doomsday could have been averted if the people made the right choice.

CHANGE, it will be but not the change these people envisions. God will dictate what CHANGE
he plans for this world.

The FORBIDDEN FRUIT just proved too much for liberal Americans to resist.

Don't despair CONSERVATIVE AMERICA. The world will be ours 10 years from now. You can bet on that.

We can give this next 8 years to them coz I think that would be their last. Historic INDEED.

As much as I would like to congratulate the Democrats for winning, it's hard to do for I know in advance that they will be driving the bus towards their DOOM.

Even as I speak, Obama plans to have full trade with Cuba. Exactly what the democrats have done with China. Make your enemies rich so it has a chance of fighting back fair and square when a face-off occurs.

BRAVO !! Let the stupidity reign.

Tim Harrison, again, just following up...

I see the posts and feels the anger and resentment. I feel the sentiments of revenge. That's understandable. Let me repeat a couple of things:

1) My work on this started months ago, after I was brought to tears by President-elect Obama's inspiring speech at the Democratic Convention. In my 49 years, I have never been that inspired. I went on to read "The Audacity of Hope", which outlines many of Barack's stances on various issues and his ideas of solving some of our problems TOGETHER. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. My vote for Barack Obama counted, and so did my voice.

2) I've been vocal in my community and church for months, and have suffered for it (but that's okay). My marriage has suffered, and frankly, it's a relief that the election is over for that reason alone. I'm prepared to remain vocal on this matter.

3) I'm prepared to go to work. How about you? Start by volunteering wherever needed. Start by working alongside those who disagree ideologically with you. Get down in the trenches and love the unlovable; touch the untouchable; take the first step. Take the higher road. Do the right thing, no matter the cost to yourself. Serve.

Blessings!

--- Tim

Impartialobserver,

Agreed about the Bush years, and the theo-neo-cons.

Also agreed about Obama's speech. I was weeping with joy.

Please try to be a bit easier on us believers - some of us, like me, will never try to force our faith on you. An olive branch works much better if you offer it in your hand with a smile.

Yes We Can!

The shroud of pride and greed that has darkened the skies of our country for eight long years is lifting, and a new dawn comes. With tears of joy in my eyes, this old man humbly thanks God for this historical opportunity for ALL of us to set things right. It won't be easy - the shambles left after eight years of incompetence and ego-strutting will not go away overnight. It will take long, hard years. And our new president knows this, and said this. He asks us all to pitch in and help, he didn't tell us to go shopping, he tells us to sacrifice. Finally we have a real leader again.

God bless America!

God allowed Americans what they want, but whether it's what is best for us remains to be seen.

Alexander Tytler (1747-1813) once wrote:

A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.

Paganplace, etc: Wow - I think it's pretty funny that you think that I am some sort of agent provocateur or fifth column or something, but I'm really not a GOP plant.

I hate the goddamned GOP. I really do. I think Dubya is Satan, Cheney is the Antichrist, and the rest of them ( i.e., Rove, Rumsfeld, etc.) are basically the minions of the devil.

The neo/theo-cons have destroyed the US's stature among the nations of the world. The US has lost its luster on the world stage. Ever since the whole 'Clinton BJ' episode, the rest of the world has ridiculed the US.

One thing, at this point: If you have never left the US, please keep your (inherently ignorant)comments to yourself).

Obama represents a potential rebirth for the US. His speech tonight had me in tears - it was the best speech I have ever seen. Brilliant, beautiful, inspiring... wow.

But despite my optimism, I cannot and will not forget or forgive the way in which the right wing jesus folk have abused the secular US citizenry over the last 8 years. Even now, you continue to scrabble and scratch for your pathetic meanspirited myth-driven moral codes, and for that I cannot excuse you. Faith is delusion, jesus is a fairy tale, god is a myth, and screw you for trying to pretend otherwise.

For that, I WILL gladly stick the olive branch up your ass.

Peace out.

Also, Palin is an idiot.

Obama rocks.

I don't even know where to begin- I have been crying all night. My eyes are swollen, my nose is red and running and I am thrilled! I went outside and you could hear the people in my neighborhood cheering and screaming Obama! Obama! I live in Crown Heights, Brooklyn. I walked up the street and got the famed "terrorist fist bump" from the young men on the street. Maybe tomorrow I'll just go back to being the white lady on the street, but tonight I was worthy of some street cred and magic happens :-)

*cheering!* :) Obama!

So, Spidey, I take it your position toward the incoming administration is implacable *eternal doom* until the midterm elections of 2014?

:)

Well, see you then, maybe. :)

The people in Chicago are like people on a bus going to a picnic. What are they happy about? Do they know where the bus is going? VERY CLUELESS.

This day is the start of a countdown towards their doom. This is the moment where you can truly say that IGNORANCE IS BLISS until the wreckage (a very big one) occurs.

Yes it is a historic day. This is the day when I think Doomsday could have been averted if the people made the right choice.

CHANGE, it will be but not the change these people envisions. God will dictate what CHANGE he plans for this world.

The FORBIDDEN FRUIT just proved too much for liberal Americans to resist.

Don't despair CONSERVATIVE AMERICA. The world will be ours 10 years from now. You can bet on that.

We can give this next 8 years to them coz I think that would be their last. Historic INDEED.

As much as I would like to Congratulate the Democrats for winning, it's hard to do for I know in advance that they will be driving the bus towards their DOOM.

"This idea of "absolutes" has no observable analogue in physical existance. "

YES, there is and you are one - an absolute idiot.

Water is 2 atoms of hydrogen and 1 oxygen. That is absolute and that cannot be changed.

There are millions more examples and for you not to get even one means you truly is an absolute idiot.

Mr. Harrison

There is no black and white.

There is no pure black, the complete absence of color, exists nowhere in the Universe, except perhaps beyond the event horizon in a black hole.

And white is not an absolute color at all, it is composed of the entire visible spectra.

This idea of "absolutes" has no observable analogue in physical existance. You would do well to remember that, and ponder how that fact relates to your other philosophies.

observer12 wrote "we'll all know where to look--right at the Vatican and all the Catholodroids of America"

Oh c'mon. Think again. Catholics I think voted as a block for Obama.

All false religions including atheism,paganism, abortionists, catholicism , liberal protestantism voted for Obama.

See what will be God's response.

God CANNOT BE DEFEATED. Remember that.

The policies of Obama will take effect 2 years from now. That will be the day when the votes for Obama would be truly felt.

Good Luck America and good luck world. You would need so much luck to counter the gloomy prophecy.

If we get four more years without health care, with more layoffs, with more bloodshed in Iraq--in short if we have another disastrous Republican administration, we'll all know where to look--right at the Vatican and all the Catholodroids of America, along with the right-wing Protestants, their partners in crime.

Hee. Well, have a good evening, and Gods be wih us this historic night. :) For Liberty! :)

As much as it seems we're already on the clock healing the nation, I think in this house, we're going to put a hopefully-diverting movie on here to save ourselves being glued to three hours of earliest election returns trickling in. :)

BB! :)

Paganplace,

I think you are correct, Spidey may be the end product of the horrible cycle of violence begetting violence. I hope he never has children, and that is in itself a terrible thing to say.

God bless, my friend... and, Blessed Be!

Arminius

"All my replies to Spidey are my sad efforts to lead him to the light. This light, by the way, is shared by you and I.

"Yes, I cannot do it. Whoever led Spidey into his darkness must have been entirely broken, hateful people."

"What else can I do? I sure could use advice."

These are abusive cycles, Arminius: them coming out in politics is in part because people don't *have* to put up with it in churches as they once used to.

The extremism is in a way, some kind of attempt to break those cycles: in Spidey's case, by trying to focus on some 'end' of a world made hostile to him, his ego, and his own humanity, by manipulators.

Who find it convenient to further confuse the likes of him for their own ends, ...he's kind of a conspicuous malfunction in that dynamic, though, cause he froths too much.

It's probably of limited use to try and tell *him* there's still only one God, but that one's actually very nice, cause he's in a nightmare someone else spun. It's all backwards to him.

As it is to less conspicuous degrees to anyone that's fearful. In my times on the street, I encountered all manner of the broken kids that these cycles of abuse spit out, trying to survive it in various ways, ...usually not so virulent and violent as Spidey, but, he's trapped in a nightmare worldview someone spun him into.... in his case, he decided to identify with the abusive figure, but that won't get him out.

I could speak of solutions in shamanic terms, but I don't think a 'rival Light' is really gonna 'save' him.

One day, he's gonna meet *other people,* not the nightmare masks he's had placed over us, and... Well, that might involve facing some of his own 'shadows' ...that he externalizes instead of copes with.

Not the easiest thing to do without a 'real world' with other people in it to come back to.

Right now, he's trying to 'survive' some sense of *personal* Apocalypse and would rather take the world down with him than deal with what's *really* scary.

We're gonna live. But there's work to do.

That kind of goes nationally, too, just in usually-less... vivid terms.

Nice thing about facing the real world and working in it, ...it gets easier. The scary bit is trading what we use to assuage our own senses of helplessness, (like vicarious power) ...for what we can do with our own hands and spirits.

In Spidey's case, maybe it's about a future. If we build it, maybe he'll come.

We'll keep a light on or something. :)

"I really do appreciate you, friend."

Likewise, and blessed be. :)

I pray that God may forgive Spidey for his madness, his hatred of God's children, and his perverted distortion of the teachings of Jesus.

Please pray for Spidey. I mean that. If you don't pray, at least pity, and try to help.

Im not happy somebody will be booted out, Arminius. Im just a watchman shouting "danger ahead" as the flashflood come rushing down the mountains.

Arminius, SOMEBODY WILL BE BOOTED OUT OF THE GARDEN.

And it's not because of my "hate" Arminius. It has nothing to do with my postings. Somebody, who owned the garden, is VERY VERY ANGRY.

Let me make it clearer. I DON'T own the Garden. Somebody does and He is angry at what is happening in his garden.

Tim Harrison is incredibly naive but I pray not worse than that. Neocons (and all with them) will never seize in their quest for power. I would be a fool to believe if/when abortion and gay related issues become non-issue, the dividing of Americans will stop. The neocon agenda calls for establishing presidential supremacy, redefining doctrine of separation of church and state; constitutional amendment establishing Christianity as state religion and Christian presidency. As expected it is not explained how individual rights will be protected nor who determines whether a presidential candidate is Christian. I am not saying neocon leaders have publicly stated their goals but the information comes from their equivalent of a drunken sailor; Christians checking their brains in at the door: I have read too many near verbatim posts arguing for a Christian government, to assume mere coincidence. The supposed lovers of Christ Jesus are nothing more than lovers of religion, and He has become mere tool for their agenda.

Thanks but no thanks, I don't want the neocons grape kool-aid. I will answer to the Lord Jesus my One and Only Master; what Harrison, Hagee, Dobson and the Pope think about Christians that disagree with them, hardly concerns me.

Spidey, as usual, does not read the other posts closely.

I have focused on the bigger problems.

But Spidey does not recognize them. Probably because he has no reply.

Cure your cancer of hatred, Spidey - come out of your cage, into the light.

Guys, focus the on the bigger problem on why you seem to have a hard time understanding the Bible.

Focus on the message and not my grammar. Grammar is very easy to correct. Understanding the message is a lot harder.

Think harder folks or is your level of intelligence just circling around grammar only?

Spidey says,

"The Bible is the Book for the Wise. Idiots won't be able to grasp the DEPTH OF ITS WISDOM."

Quite true.

But what Spidey does not see, are the Gospels. The wisdom there is God's love.

Somehow, Spidey has twisted this into hatred.

Pray for Spidey.

Paganplace,

All my replies to Spidey are my sad efforts to lead him to the light. This light, by the way, is shared by you and I.

Yes, I cannot do it. Whoever led Spidey into his darkness must have been entirely broken, hateful people.

What else can I do? I sure could use advice.

I really do appreciate you, friend.

Arminius

"See- this is the result of not putting funding into the Bush administration's No Child Left Behind.
Spidey has left his grammar far far behind"

Actually, I'm pretty sure Bush could have only been referring to the apocalyptic 'Left Behind' series of Fundie trash novels.

ie, just try and make em apocalyptic Fundies, and they won't be 'Left Behind.'

Ok, let me correct that.

YOU CHOSE THIS FOR YOURSELVES.

"Remember, you chosed this for yourselves"

See- this is the result of not putting funding into the Bush administration's No Child Left Behind.
Spidey has left his grammar far far behind.

"chose", spidey. Not chosed.

Actually, Spidey, in *your* religion, it was the 'Serpent' who promised wisdom, power, and 'knowledge of good and evil,' and *that* kicked *you* out of the Garden of Eden.

i.e. Christianity: UR doing it wrong. :)

Don't you get it Arminius? The Bible is the Book for the Wise. Idiots won't be able to grasp the DEPTH OF ITS WISDOM.

If you call yourself a Christian, the wise are scratching their heads. But not God. He is HOLDING A BIG STICK.

SOMEBODY WILL BE BOOTED OUT OF THE GARDEN AND THE MOMENT THAT STICK IS STRUCK TO THE GROUND, NO MAN CAN REENTER THE GARDEN FOR A VERY VERY LONG TIME.

Arminius to Spidey:

"God is waiting for you, Spidey. He wants to know why you hate all of His children.

"What will you say to God, Spidey? What can you say?"

I think someone went to a great deal of effort to teach a child in a lot of pain so to do and use him for religious politics, and when it still didn't work, he thought the only answer was to escalate some sense of a cosmic war in which only he and his 'side' would survive his inner anger.

I think he's going to have to look for somewhere else than our government to do that, if he still so chooses.

I think he is going to hate the world and everone in it, and call that 'God' until he realizes that won't help.

I think... When he meets 'God,' there'll be some well-earned tears.

I think he fears that if *he* isn't on the side of the biggest bully imaginable, it'll be *he* who goes to his Hell.

I think someone oughtn't to have done taught him that, never mind substituted it for science and learning and political awareness.

I think, maybe, Arminius, it ain't a 'Judge' he needs to meet.

Someone handle that? :)

Yonkers, New York
04 November 2008

Tim Harrison, the author of this essay, who says he is "a conservative Christian--an "evangelical"--seems to be a rara avis to me, for he concedes that America is not a theocracy but a democracy.

He thus believes in the "Establishment Clause" of the United States Constitution which provides clearly for the separation of church [religion] and state.

He goes on to say that "people of different faiths must work together, side-by-side, on the assembly line and in the board room.

But, as I have already said at the outset, Mr. Harrison is a rara avis. I daresay that 99% of evangelical Christians not only do not agree with him, but disagree with him vehemently.

Rev. James Falwell, founder of Liberty University, is one evangelical Christian who believes devoutly in absolutes. For him there is "a right and a wrong" which, in the language of Tim Harrison, is "clearly defined in the Bible."

Rev. Falwell founded Liberty University with one clear and insidious purpose in mind, which is to produce thousands of college graduates following a curriculum which is heavily tilted towards evangelical Christian principles and values--the "absolutes.

These Liberty University alumni will have one clear mission in life: to infiltrate all levels of government, from the bottom up--from village to townships to cities to states and right up to the Federal government.

Like a "Fifth Column," they are to infiltrate the Executive, the Legislative and the Judicial branches of government, where these branches exist, at any and all levels.

The ultimate objective is to convert the United States, eventually, in the goodness of time, from a de jure democracy to a DE FACTO THEOCRACY.

With tens of thousands of Liberty University alumni effectively holding the levers of power at all levels and in all major branches of government as a de facto theocracy, it will be possible for them to make the U.S. Constitution inoperative to all intents and purposes.

The U.S. Constitution will simply be ignored as if it did not exist at all.

If secularist individuals or groups of individuals decide to question government policies and programs which in their considered view violate the U.S. Constitution, of course they have recourse to the United States Supreme Court.

But don't forget that the U.S. Supreme Court is now effectively controlled by justices who happen to be graduates of Liberty University!

Cases brought to it by secularist individuals and groups will routinely either be not accepted for litigation, or decided 8 to 1 [or worse] against the Plaintiff or Plaintiffs as the case may be.

That is what I mean by a DE FACTO THEOCRACY.

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

Spidey is totally obsessed with the mythical garden of eden, a snake, an 'apple', and a naked woman.

I would love to hear from a psychologist about this fixation.

"condescending" ?

Who is mocking God?

Eve and the Snake ended up blaming each other for their "WISE" decision when it seemed to them that God is truly REAL and about to give His judgment.

There will be a lot of BLAMING coming folks. And somebody will be booted out of the Garden.

Ah, Spidey's back.

He says something big is brewing. He's right, but he does not know what it is.

God is waiting for you, Spidey. He wants to know why you hate all of His children.

What will you say to God, Spidey? What can you say?

" spidermean2
"When the so called Christians (Tim)and Pagans agree on something or Eve in the garden agree with the Snake, SOMETHING REALLY BIG IS BREWING."

Well, you know, some Christians would be happy to say kinda condescendingly, 'Hey, even the stones will shout!' and call it a good day, but it seems your idea of Jesus is 'Call yourself less sinful and you get to throw the first stone.'

If you won't hear it of me, I commend you to your own clergy, kid. You're liable to blow another few cylinders tonight.

When the so called Christians (Tim)and Pagans agree on something or Eve in the garden agree with the Snake, SOMETHING REALLY BIG IS BREWING.

America has decided to taste the brew.

Watch out America. Remember, you chosed this for yourselves and God has no part in this.

Spidermean:

"The atheists are happy, the pagans, the abortionists, the gay-marriage folks, and the hollywood crowd. DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE GOD CAN BE DEFEATED?"

I dunno, Spidey, not my God, but, hey, have a little faith. You seem to be hanging that very idea on this election.

Since you threatened he is a guy who plans to selectively nuke all Democrats, I submit he's either not like you say, a bigger threat than Al-Qaeda to our national security, or someone you don't have to freak out for. :)

"Im just a watchman shouting "danger ahead". And you won't listen."

I guess because we're waiting for a watchman who has a shred of sanity. You're not him.

The atheists are happy, the pagans, the abortionists, the gay-marriage folks, and the hollywood crowd. DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE GOD CAN BE DEFEATED?

Think again folks.

These are the enemies of God and lest you forget, Im reminding you that God CANNOT be defeated.

When idiots rule themselves, they end up falling into the ditch.

How big is that ditch? It's big enough to accomodate all God's enemies.

Don't blame me folks, I warned you and YOU CHOSED TO DIVE ON THIS DITCH.

Im just a watchman shouting "danger ahead". And you won't listen.

Seriously, Midwest. The people the 'One Issue' anti-choice voters have put in office all this time have brought us to one *disaster and screwup and failure* after another.

And no one should be more cheesed about *that* than someone actually worried about children.

Don't make *them* suffer cause *you* want it self-righteous and simple.

If you can stop demonizing people, we really *can* make abortion, at *least,* safe, legal, and rare.

Keep electing Republicans over it, and they'll just keep stringing you along and making you feel a false sense of power over demonstrably making the problem *worse.*

Hands are being extended here. How bout we work on this, among *many* issues involving mothers and children?

MiwestB: It's not your 'responsibility' to 'uphold moral correctness' by tanking the nation for *all* our children and all our futures just cause you believe a failed, punitive, coercive, and absolutist approach to reducing abortions is the 'only way to go.'

It's not.

All Bush's absolutism, enforced ignorance, and striving to bring us back to the days of black market, ahame shrouded abortions has done *nothing* to reduce unwanted pregnancy or abortion, but rather in the real world government can and does effect, made it worse.

If you think your *religion* can do better, maybe trying to break the Constitution, economy, environment, and *world* over enforcing your sexual tabooes isn't the way to go.

Just a thought.

Hey sparrow.
Nice story. Trips to the vet can be bummers sometimes. Not today!
No, don't let the meanies get you down. And in a 'hopefilled' America the meanies may not need even the first 4 years to come around.

After reading Tim's editorial, my heart sank. It is this very foggy outlook that is leading so many professed Christians from their responsibility to uphold moral correctness. The thought that we need to look at the bigger picture and all the issues vs. focusing our efforts on something that lacks moral correctness, which in my case is abortion and embrionic stem cell research, is going to lead to further chaos and more intricate issues. His outlook, which is so very prominant any more, is in my opinion no different than a person who says "I would never have an abortion but far be it from me to tell someone else they can't." It's not even a matter of religious beliefs, though unfortunately this topic and that of stem cell research seems to only have those involved in religious organizations to support and champion for their rights to life or humane treatment. So, sure, we can leave our "religion" at the door. I won't vote for someone because they share the same faith as me. But if my "religion" and that of others is calling upon our duty as a Christian, to uphold the very moral values that set us aside from animals, we cannot shirk from that responsibility. We cannot be luke warm. We cannot become Pontius Pilot and wash our hands of the matter. If abortion is murder, we must champion the rights of those children and stop the murder. If embrionic stem cell research is conducting medical experimentation on humans who've not given their concent to have there lives ended so we can further science, then we must champion thier rights to life or a humane death. We absolutely must continue on this crusade or we become a part of the problem. Tim, I hope you never become comfortable with your new thought process.

" Arminius
"Good post, Paganplace,

Why, thank you.

"Sticking offered olive branches up someone's arse ain't gonna solve anything. It only confirms and strengthens the hatred spouted by the opposition. "

Of course that's exactly why the definitely *not-liberal* 'ImpartialObserver' felt like playing the agent provocateur...

In order to make the 'side' his little false-flag operation intended to demonize seem justifiably-scary to the disinformed conservatives.

"Perhaps we are "fundamentally" the same!
:-) :-) :-)"

Well, Justtill, whatever *words* you may claim are 'fundamentals,' the 'foundation' even, that we *really* all live on is the fact we all share a world which will kick us in the 'fundament' if we get too attached to certain words and 'sides' instead of what we're doing. :)

Good post, Paganplace,

Sticking offered olive branches up someone's arse ain't gonna solve anything. It only confirms and strengthens the hatred spouted by the opposition. Welcome to physics. Equal and opposite reaction. It leads only to anarchy. Go figure.

Hey arminius, paganplace and justillthen!

Took my cat to the vet. Both drivers for the car services I took were south American and thrilled over the election! Everyone asked me who I voted for - People everywhere are totally into it and amazed.

I am so psyched I am not letting the trashers bring me down. I didn't vote for liberalism, or secularism or any other ism today. I voted for hope and common sense and the idea that this country can still embrace all of us without choking any one of us.

I can't give up that idea. those too mean-spirited or rigid to join the circle of hands can sit and stew. But the rest of us have a love of work to do and the more of us who can work together the stronger we will be and the further along the road we'll journey. When Clinton was elected he referred to a town named Hope. today I feel like we are a country named Hope and those of you who would rather sulk and be miserable- enjoy the next 4 (and hopefully 8) years. Maybe by then you'll want to work along side us too.

@PSPOX
"Can the right put aside religious absolutism to work with the left on common issues?...On the other hand will the left (assuming they win this election because it is not over, yet) take the olive branch and govern with even hands, and can it do so without compromising the core principles?
Will both side look for common ground to move forward together, to heal and restore our democracy and liberty or will we use wedge issues to gain the advantage but split us farther apart?"

Great question!
It's as easy for us to do "bad" as it is to do "good" it's all CHOICE AND FREE WILL and left up to our personal "morals and values" and I don't mean the ones we dropped or invented when we "got grown" and thought nobody was looking- I mean the ones we were born with-dare I say "our God given knowledge"- YES I DARE SAY IT!
Why is it so hard for us to just DO RIGHT BY ONE ANOTHER without feeling we have something to lose? What will I lose other than a bad habit a a n outdated mentality? Is that a bad thing to lose?

Justtill on 'Impartial Observer'

"You blow your cover and betray your True Nature! A republican Warmonger, ye be!"

Shh. Of course he is. And always has been. But he's wearing the mask of 'a 'Scary Extremist Liberal,' ...so, why not dance? :)

OK. I'm over that dance. :)

Yes Pagan,
I agree. Investment in the people, carefully done, and not so much in the corporations as beneficiary. Corporations are great, and business is essential, but investments misplaced create bad returns.
We need to get back to some basics of what is really important.

In the end the two sides have some very similar 'essential' ideals, just very different views of how to implement them and of how it looks in the end.

Perhaps we are "fundamentally" the same!
:-) :-) :-)

Dear Timmeh,

You're not a Christian. None of you Religious Reich Wingnuts are.

You are just a bunch of evil, hateful scumbags who are stinking up the church.

I left the church because of you Reich Wingnuts.

I still haven't left Jesus. He's still the same hippy freak who hung out with 12 dudes, a hooker and his mom...and told us to love even our enemies.

And I'm trying really, really hard not to hate each and every one of you phony Christians.

Forgiving you for wrecking my church isn't easy. And forgiving you for wrecking my country is hard.

You all owe the rest of us a huge apology.

Thanks, Justillthen, for confirming this point for me. For me personally, it makes the sincerity more believable. Goes to show the power of the positive example that Obama has displayed through this long and difficult election. Maybe, finally, we the people are ready to try to get along.

"Yeah right. I, for one, will take great pleasure ripping any olive branch extended by a 'reformed' GOP thug from his hand and sticking it straight up his ass... mirroring exactly what you right-wing crazies have been doing to the country for the last 8 years."

Yeah, and I'll just get a few identical window frames to put between you, ...one of them will be empty, one will be glass, and one will be a double-sided mirror. :)

Breathe, people. As many false equivalencies as are drawn between the theocratic GOP thuggery and the justifiable anger of those it's hurt...

We actually need to do some positive things, here.

We're sweeping those guys out of our government.

And we're going to be more gracious about it than *they* were when they were lording it over us.

To the theocons, all I can say is, "Yeah, you made a few peole angry all these years, sure an' you did."

Myself not the least.

But we're going to get together and do some good, here. We don't have time for any more of this 'culture war' of yours. But we won't put up with more attacks and distortions, either.

Why am I always the one holding window sashes between you guys and saying, 'This may be a tw

Ahhh, IMPARTIALOBSERVER :

"Reconciliation?!? Are you kidding me?!?"....

Ye do terrible injustice to thy name! Ye betray the Truthe!

You blow your cover and betray your True Nature! A republican Warmonger, ye be!

Care for a job with Halliburton, Impartial? Hold that emotion and you might be perfect. There may be sudden openings in Interrogators. Current ones are unreachable.
No experience neccessary.
Just stay impartial, just like that.

Sorry. I don't trust you. As long as you believe in fairy tales, you are mentally ill. Please go away now.

Hello ZACHWES :

"Bravo, Mr. Harrison! Could you please confirm that you voted for Obama? If you did not, then I really have a difficult time believing the sincerity of your comments."

He did, somewhere round 8:00 am today, and then triplicated it later.
But I do not think that his message would be negated if he were voting for the Republican ticket. I assumed he was. But he, or anyone, could be honestly calling for reconciliation and still vote conservative. The two are not self-negating. I assume! :-)
I may or may not believe in what Democrats have done in this division yet still choose a democrat. And call for healing.

"Fiscally conservative is all but essential in our economy. To repair the damage of the fiscal conservatives! Nothing like actions to show the truth..."

Well, it's a question of where. 'Conservatsm' has proved repeatedly to be expensive and deficit-building, but you don't set a capitalist economy thriving again without actually spending some money. There's a lot of policies that would have been really good that Bushco basically gave the money for to the rich who made the mess, ...but in the face of a near-depression, a savings account won't help too much.

Money will need to be spent, just in the right places that employ people and rebuild the infrastructure all those inflated corporate pencil-pushing profits ran into the ground while they made their billions off us.

It's about 'investing,' capitalism. It's time to invest in *us,* and the workforce, and the country, and the future. It'll be a tight budget, but it seems *someone* blew two trillion after saying we couldn't 'afford' better schools.

Reconciliation?!? Are you kidding me?!?

After 8 years of bullying every non neo/theo-con in the country, the GOP finds itself in a position and begs for reconciliation.

Yeah right. I, for one, will take great pleasure ripping any olive branch extended by a 'reformed' GOP thug from his hand and sticking it straight up his ass... mirroring exactly what you right-wing crazies have been doing to the country for the last 8 years.

"I realize I'm generalizing and I know that the liberal spectrum of the equation operates in its own way, too. But how can we, as Christians, or better yet, as Americans, condone this? Doesn't this bother anyone?" "Right and wrong are still the same, but the issues facing the country today are larger than religious absolutes."

AMEN my brother in country and in spirit. You didn't have to mention your religious beliefs for me to recognize your "GOODNESS". I do not commit to any particular religion but I am open to hearing and being objective and tolerant to one's beliefs-if you like it , I love it "for you". All religions "I know of" have the same basic fundamentals....hate and intolerance do not have a place in my beliefs nor of others around me.

I applaud your article, your ambitions, your SHARING and the employing of your "higher spiritual self" to the situation in America and in your life. I think you might be surprised by how many of us have united in this way and have been able to set aside foolish debate on belief to PAY ATTENTION TO THE TRUTH.
Wouldn't it be wonderful and truly a triumph over the evils of the world if we could all apply a little less "organized religion" and a little more "common sense and simple human kindness". It's not that hard to let go when you truly know "God"- no matter what one may call HIM. We must let him live and work through us.

PAGANPLACE :
It is a good feeling that the vilification is arrested. Something, (or maybe someones!), ought to get arrested! I've got a couple of ideas...
I think centrism is good, especially in this moment...
Fiscally conservative is all but essential in our economy. To repair the damage of the fiscal conservatives! Nothing like actions to show the truth...

Havn't listened to Rush for years. It was too painful. A good exercise.

With wise leadership some of the values of liberal politics could shine, but it will require inclusiveness based on what we are up against. Find the footing and rebalance and get out of harms way before we can do a polka.

My patient Goddess, though, am I hyper today. Typing a mile a minute. :)

I'm taking bets on how long I'll last tonight before watching election returns. :) I should have set aside some work to do today that doesn't involve precision or sharp tools. :)

Bravo, Mr. Harrison! Could you please confirm that you voted for Obama? If you did not, then I really have a difficult time believing the sincerity of your comments. How could you support a ticket that has been spewing such lies and divisive venom? I'd hate to think that you wouldn't have written this if the preferred candidate of the Christian Right was going to win...

Well, Justtill, I think liberals feel *vindicated* mostly about no longer being *dismissed* as Unamerican and all the other things we see here.

People have been trying to vilify anything they can call 'liberal' since Rush Limbaugh's group got noisy in the 90's. We have not really had a liberal administration in decades: Clinton certainly did a lot of 'liberal' things, but he was a budget 'conservative,' and very corporate, which meant we didn't *really* invest in the future, and infrastructure, and 'human capital, to the extent that a 'truly liberal' platform kind of needs. If you want to call someone a 'moderate' overall, it'd be Clinton, if you asked me. But he was competent at it.

Of course, compared to Dubya, *anyone* looks liberal.

And certainly competent. :)

Except maybe Palin. Yikes. :)

REVLDC :
A wonderful post. Thank you.

"The power of the Church will not be its imposition of moral values and rules on the legislature, but the power of God's spirit within us and a body of believers manifesting God's power and love."

Yes!

"My prayer is that those who lead the evangelical movement will get back to their first love--they are just no good at politics."

I am for reconciliation, since it is the only way this nation can move forward. However, I find it quite interesting that this message have only now appeared, at the eve of the election, after about 14 long years of the so-called moralists' assault on democracy and liberty, starting with the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Why bring up the past? Because we have not quite healed. There have been a lot of hurts, pains, and angers. There have been many times where the end was wrongly taken to justify the means, including subverting our constitution and Bill of Rights. It will take more than a few words of appology to extend an olive branch. Deeds, not words. I think it's understandable that there are many on the left that question whether this appology is sincere or just a ploy to get back to the public favor. Can the right put aside religious absolutism to work with the left on common issues? Social justice, the environment, human rights for example. It's obvious from some comments on this board that not all the right is quite ready for that yet. On the other hand will the left (assuming they win this election because it is not over, yet) take the olive branch and govern with even hands, and can it do so without compromising the core principles? Will both side look for common ground to move forward together, to heal and restore our democracy and liberty or will we use wedge issues to gain the advantage but split us farther apart?

DHO7993186 :
Thank you for your post. I do not know that christians are not living in front of others, but many groups withhold their real hearts in society as a whole. Perhaps that is what you mean.
I also hope that Focus on the Family prays for Obama is he wins. I am sure that they will continue to pray for the nation, as we all could.
'Correct' or not, Obamas ideals can only be further enlightened by hearts in prayer.
Thank you...

Dear Tim,
I applaud your efforts! As a Christian minister who shares your values and supports the need for our country to continue to celebrate its diversity, your comments are long overdue. The power of the Church will not be its imposition of moral values and rules on the legislature, but the power of God's spirit within us and a body of believers manifesting God's power and love. Its God's goodness that leads a man to salvation and somewhere along the line we have forgotten our call to love and demonstrate to the world that God lives inside us! It is this power that turned the world upside down more than 2000 years ago and continues to change men from generation to generation. If we purpose to become disciples, we won't need to worry about laws and actions that are morally reprehensible. My prayer is that those who lead the evangelical movement will get back to their first love--they are just no good at politics.

I think this article was wonderful. I am a Christian and have been since I was 8. I think the change Christians want to see will happen when Christians begin to live the life in front of others. I hope that Focus on the Family will continue to pray for the nation and the president regardless of who is in office. Some of the talk made it seem that Christians will not pray for Obama if he is elected. Some of his ideals are not correct, but I believe prayer will correct things.

Big of you to come around to "working together" on the day of an election in which your folks will be swept from power. None of you seemed much interested in "working together" when you were in power.

Mr. Harrison, a toast to your courage.

Thanks for the post PAGANPLACE.
I agree.
Yet the point I was making is that I do not believe that liberalism, by winning the day, is vindicated or validated as inherently right.
It has many failings and in times past liberal administrations have failed in achieving their goals, as current conservatives are now doing. We have many liberal policies in place that are at least flawed by degrees.
The assumption by liberals here that they are finally vindicated or something is 1. a bit premature and 2. a bit arrogant itself.
The majority of Americans are centrists, and the pendulum swings over periods to the left and then the right in response to calls from the opposites. Such is life. Greatness now can be achieved if the initiative is taken to be INCLUSIVE of opposing camps.
Justin

Well, Justtill, you may not see 'liberalism as validated,' but certainly the *attacks* on 'liberalism' as some fringe weirdness are *demolished,* while conservatism, at its own vehement and extended insistence, demonstrated its catastrophic failures.

Obama really *isn't* such an 'extreme liberal' as he's painted by the GOP attack machines... But he certainly was the most liberal among the three Democratic frontrunners.

Kuchinich was really the most liberal among the Democratic possibilities, and at the start, Mccain was the most 'liberal' among the Republicans, for which he was despised until he got re-branded (poor "maverick," he got branded. :) ) *as a right-wing religious conservative in lockstep with the party line, even if the 'maverick' image was mostly a mirage, anyway, given his voting record....

So, there's certainly some validation, there.

Certainly, a lot of the nation is voting *against* Mccain and Palin just cause they're so *utterly* unsuitable,

...But Obama's not so extreme as he's said to be who for some reason find it 'socialist' not to funnel our national wealth ongoingly to the very richest among us. .

I'd say, Obama's actually *liberal enough* to give liberal policies a chance to really operate, which we haven't really seen in full swing, maybe really in my lifetime. But he does represent hope, yes, maybe hope that we can start dealing with the issues in a different way than 'Imperial Presidencies,' and the GOP lockstep of 'Our way or no way, 'us v them,' winwinwin,' whoever it hurts and whatever it costs.

The Religious Right and the conservative corporate media have *pulled us off center* so hard and for so long that anyone not beating Bibles in the courthouse gets called a 'lefty' or 'extreme liberal' or 'commie' or 'Unamerican' by so many voices.

Voices who are trying to pretend they shouldn't be eating crow right now.

The 'Real' America is not divided as they say. Maybe never was. If you poll most Americans on individual questions, they express 'liberal' opinions on *most* things, if you don't say which is which.

The 'Real' America is *all* America. Not the right-wing theocratic fringe and what people say when said fringe and the GOP *scare* them.

I'd say, yes, people are rejecting the fear and smear. Talking about hope and what we *can* do.

Hello FERNFIVE:
It is a great country. Not always so tolerant. Even to other christians, especially to non-christians. Long histories of violence. Indeed it was the Christian moralities that were part of the battle cries as we decimated the "heathen" red man. So to make it your 'christian nation' we needed to rid it of the devil who had set up camp. Manifest Destiny was one of the rallying christian philosopies of the time that allowed your christian forebears to kill the devil worshiping indians...
This past practice is related, in my belief, to current day evangelical social and political policy. Tim Harrison spoke of evangelical desires to control government and prepare for Jesus to take the Throne in Washington, (or wherever He may want, probably Idaho or montana...). Who does not know that evangelicals are not seeking control of government and enactment of laws to force the populace to kowtow to their religious theories? What complete IDIOT believes the conservatives here that have made assurances that control is not their aim???
It is this form of covert cohersion and overt moral arrogance and elitism that has won evangelicals so many enemies. An cost them many who would otherwise have greater compassion for their aims.
It is delusional to believe that the religious refugees that populated this country from europe and elsewhere were compassionate and tolerant, (though some have ALWAYS been peaceful pascifists).
It is an illusion to believe that this is some sanctified christian land.
Mr. Harrison writes: "In the realm of Christian politics, evangelicals believe in absolutes."
Absolutely. They believe they are absolutely right.
That is why they are absolutely the wrong choice to have dominion, (couldn't help using the word, please forgive :-) ), over government.
I think they need to grow up a bit and play fair with their sibs. With all due respect. Justin

Paganplace,

"Well, he *did* apologize for being 'late,' but as much as I don't think that'll instantly make everything right between all Evangelicals and those they've been trying to stomp on all this time, I'll take it as offered."

Yes, he did apologize. And offered what I believe to be a sincere gesture of friendship. Hell, no, there will be no instant healing! You know that as well as I. Increments, inches, hopefully a few feet. Gotta keep trying, and reaching out. I know you are doing this, and I know you have much more reason than I to be suspect of any offer. But we gotta start somewhere. These people are not all Spideys.

Rome was not built in a friggin' day.

fr nhinvermont:

>...To think that Anne Coulter, Sean Hannity and others of their ilk have claimed to represent his moral teachings is unbelievable to me - they are the antithesis of his message...

Oh, SO true, esp known liar annie coulter.

There is no possibiliy of reconcilation until the Two Worst Books Ever Written, the bible and the koran, are reissued without the myths, death to infidels/oppression of women passages and all the hallucination-based dictates/guilt trips of the many prophets aka fortune tellers.

" Arminius
"Hi, Sparrow,

"Right you are. Here is Tim, reaching out a hand of friendship, seeking reconciliation, and so many self-righteous, misguided people blast him for 'being so late'. America is better than that."

Well, he *did* apologize for being 'late,' but as much as I don't think that'll instantly make everything right between all Evangelicals and those they've been trying to stomp on all this time, I'll take it as offered.

As I said, it's a little like one person among many many more stopping and looking for forgiveness from people still being attacked.

It's a start, and an admirable one, but not the whole process. Earlier on in this thread, we discussed a lot of those factors, though it seems there's a frenzy of 'librul-bashing' .... and bashing of Mr. Harrison by the Religious Right, himself.

" All those people should look in a mirror, as I have, and ask 'What have I done during the past 8 years of darkness to make it better?'. Tim reaches out. Are they reaching out? No."

I think a lot of people who suffer Religious Right attacks every day, even here on this blog, are a little wary of 'reaching out' to Evangelicals, cause they worked so hard to earn their bad rep.

Mind you, I've been trying to reach out, myself, and can see how difficult it is to get a hand of friendship edgewise among the general fray. :)

These things take time and work. Mr. Harrisson has put some in. Admirably.

The assumption that a vote for Barak is a validation of liberal policy is naive. It is a vote for the HOPE that we can move forward in a new way. ROUTE1 and his religious moderate peers may not be interested much in Democratic policies... They may vote to help assure that the failures of the conservatives in office does not continue.
Liberalism is not validated because conservatives are coming on board for this vote. We have to reconcile to the greater good of the population at large. I believe that Obama knows this, and I believe that he can achieve it, with help from a broad range of perspectives of many interest groups. Evangelicals included.
Inclusiveness and regard for differences are essential aspects to reconciliation and the healing of rifts that is needed.

Highly offensive, FernFive:

" fernfive

"I believe this country has been tolerant from the beginning. Take for example the term "melting pot." The Christian values that this country once had and still has, and if not defended strongly is dying away, has made this nation great. It welcomed people from different race and religion. However, the people who came in and was welcome by such values, after establishing themselves, started imposing their values and views."

So, you're claiming that 'evil outsiders that don't share your personal religious demands ' are to blame for you 'tolerantly wanting them to live under your theocratic rule?

This anti-immigrant sentiment, (Apparently Fern wants to apply that further back than the current immigrants, maybe to the Irish and Italians? Where did this 'corruption' of some 'original Neocon Fundamentalism begin? Before it started? Or were you just trying to claim Obama's a foreigner who 'isn't a Christian and therefore is destroying the country?')

Quite nonsensical.

No, babies aren't a *punishment* ....unless theocrats use the force of government to cause unwanted pregnancies by denying education and contraception, force women to carry the children of even rapists to term, even with no health care or way to get food and shelter except as doled out by... Theocrats again, as a 'punishment for the sins of Eve' or whatever.

No, babies shouldn't be a punishment. Don't let the Republicans keep *making* one of them. We should support mothers and motherhood so no one, most of all unwanted children, *are* punished by a religiously-punitive idea of what the state can do about the problem.

That's what that's about.

Immigrants to America have almost always, it seems, met a certain amount of scorn and fearmongering from certain types. But they.... we, have always proved to be the country's real strength.

We're a pluralistic nation, and that includes you. As well as me, and Mr. Harrisson here. From the start.

It's the Religious Right that has wounded that 'melting pot' by trying to claim it for themselves, and... Put a lid on it.

This type of compromise is why our country has left its foundational roots. As much as Fox news holds liberals to a high standard of truth look what the big three are doing and tell me that is right. Fox news is terribly outnumbered if you want to talk about slanted journalism. Conservatives have one TV voice and a few radio voices. The liberals have hundreds of voices spewing what is slowly destroying the foundations of morality this country had at is core. We cannot legislate morality but we can legislate a moral climate. Our forefathers did. What have we gained by changing that, 3,500 children killed in abortion clinics 6 days a week, more school violence than has ever been seen, pornography which has trapped the minds of multitudes of people, and as the Bible put it, "as in the days of Noah".

When I read articles like this I understand it is one more Christian who has Fallen to the mentality of the culture which would control our voice in this world. Why is it that the evil should have a strong voice but the conservatives not? It makes no sense when you look at it? I do not know this man and believe he is a good person but he is also one of the reasons the church will lose its ability to impact our culture.

For those who would speak of separation of church and state forget or ignore our beginning. Almost every state, including Massachusetts, still has it in their state constitution that every governor should be a professing Christian. That is how much our forefathers believed the church should affect the state. What they guarded against was the state establishing a single church or denomination. This country was built on "one nation under God" and now we want His values pushed out of the soul of the nation. It is one thing for individuals to have it at their heart but this country was built on the foundation that godly morality must be kept at it's heart.

Hi, Sparrow,

Right you are. Here is Tim, reaching out a hand of friendship, seeking reconciliation, and so many self-righteous, misguided people blast him for 'being so late'. America is better than that. All those people should look in a mirror, as I have, and ask 'What have I done during the past 8 years of darkness to make it better?'. Tim reaches out. Are they reaching out? No.

ROUTE1 :

"Republicans are voting for Barack Obama, too. If Obama only gets Democratic votes today, he'll lose. Remember that."

"Folks like me will allow him to possibly win Virginia and Florida, and maybe steal North Carolina. You're saying we don't matter? Okay, come talk to me in 2 years."

Here is a great point that should be remembered and considered.
If Barak wins it is for the support of Republicans AND moderate evangelicals like Tim Harrison. Whether because of disaffection with recent administration policies, a change of heart, certainty of the need for a new direction... The fact remains that there are people of VERY diverse social and religious backgrounds that have divergent beliefs, but vote for this enactment of a new direction.
A new direction requires this polarized society to be willing to work together for a more harmonious future.
It means there has to be something in it for everybody.
The assumption that a vote for Barak is a validation of liberal policy is naive. It is a vote for the HOPE that we can move forward in a new way. ROUTE1 and his religious moderate peers may not be interested much in Democratic policies... They may vote to help assure that the failures of the conservatives in office does not continue.
Liberalism is not validated because conservatives are coming on board for this vote. We have to reconcile to the greater good of the population at large. I believe that Obama knows this, and I believe that he can achieve it, with help from a broad range of perspectives of many interest groups. Evangelicals included.
Inclusiveness and regard for differences are essential aspects to reconciliation and the healing of rifts that is needed.

Tim. I'm a lifelong Dem who grew up in a (Eisenhower, Rockefeller) Republican family , raised Protestant, I've become Reconstructionist Jewish. I welcome your story and your change of heart (not convictions, no one needs to change their convictions), deeply. I'll work with you. Willingly. Gladly. Eagerly. I too voted for Obama, but I wouldn't have if I thought he was an ideologue. Ideology has brought us to this pass, ideology on the right and ideology on the left. You can hear it in some of the bitter, recriminative blog entries above.
I take Barack Obama at his word that he intends to unify our country so we stand a chance against the formidable challenges we face.
As a country we've fallen into the poisonous habit of feeding our little egos by forming rigid opinions and denigrating others who don't hold the same ones. We mirror the media, they mirror us back, we exercise our dogmatic certainty about everything in the blogosphere. This won't go away overnight. So while it's softening, those able to imagine working shoulder to shoulder with diverse others, those who are hungry to find commonality, will need simply to go ahead and get to work together. Judging by the impact Obama's had, that's quite a few of us. I'm signing up with you, Tim. I appreciate your courageous shift and testimony to it and I respect that your form of faith nurtures you, as mine does me.

Don't most of you get it? What the conservatives have done over the past 10-15 years is create a division in this country. We have the red and the blue, the liberal and conservative, the US against THEM mentality that has brought us to the mess this nation is today. Finally, a leading conservative evangelical acknowledges this and proposes finding common ground, and what does he get? He gets the same sort of self-righteous I-told-you-so, It's-our-turn-to-be-mean kind of response that we heard in 2000. STOP THE MADNESS!

Try hopping down from your high horses and rolling up your sleeves. There is work to be done and this petty bickering is just going to get in the way (as it has since the Contract with America and the election cycle of 2000).

I'll gladly take your hand Mr. Harrison. It's high time that reason and cooperation replace partisanship and finger pointing

"It welcomed people from different race and religion. However, the people who came in and was welcome by such values, after establishing themselves, started imposing their values and views. All of a sudden Christian teaching, values and doctrine became offensive to them and the solution was to abolish these values? "

gee- just who do you think came? Oh wait..... let me guess...Jes, Blacks, Asians, Muslims, Wiccans (considering what Christian values did for wiccans I think we should kiss some of those values goodbye).

By the way- read up on the Iroquois Confederacy and democracy. It's an eye-opener for those of you who insist on believing everything in America is based on "christian values."

I believe this country has been tolerant from the beginning. Take for example the term "melting pot." The Christian values that this country once had and still has, and if not defended strongly is dying away, has made this nation great. It welcomed people from different race and religion. However, the people who came in and was welcome by such values, after establishing themselves, started imposing their values and views. All of a sudden Christian teaching, values and doctrine became offensive to them and the solution was to abolish these values? I believe that anyone who migrates here and to live in this country that GOD made great should be willing to respect it's values.

With regards to the presidential candidates, both will work towards fixing the economy, you may or may not agree with the approach each will take but at least they have one goal, that's to fix the economy. But their is one issue that I believe only one of the candidate will serve it's best interest and that's the protection of the unborn and maintaining the Christian values that influences laws of this country.

Some may think that if Obama will win that soldiers will come home and thus put a stop of them dying in the front. But on the other hand innocent babies will continue to die unjustly. When individual enlist in the military, it is a conscious decision they make and they are aware of the consequences. When they get deployed to go to war they have weapons to defend themselves but the unborn don't have any. During wars thousands of innocent people die not to mention the soldiers who are in the forefront but whether there is war or not babies continue to die through abortion with the current law. Killing the babies to solve a wrong or a mistake creates a bigger WRONG. The media and it's viewers have a field day when I child is missing, abducted or killed, they are quick to condemn the perpetrators. How different are these victims compared to the victims of abortion? Perhaps to get rid of unwanted pregnancies, mothers to be or mothers take on a convoluted view as to when life begins to give them an excuse for their actions.

Obama said that if his daughters make a mistake and get pregnant, he will not punish them with babies. Sen. Obama, when has babies become a form of punishment? Say that to the couple who has spent thousands so that they can have a baby. Sen. Obama you would not be here today experiencing this once in a lifetime opportunity to possibly become president of this great nation if you were aborted during your mother's pregnancy with you.

YI35- indeed. Enough pain. thank you for a beautiful post.

I am really saddened by the vitriol so many posters have written against Tim. He was brutally honest about his faith and his attitude, he spent months volunteering for Obama at a personal cost to himself- it took courage for him to go against everything he stands for and look to a higher purpose. I just don't get this- be angry at those who think they have to spend the next 4 (or 8) years destroying everything we are hoping to rebuild. If Tim and anyone wants to stand with us on common ground, I say let them. Don't beat him up for the past- appreciate where he is now because i guarantee you, if we don't put our money where our mouths are and become more inclusive and unified, we will see an even angrier, more bitter and more dangerous religious right wing. Pick your battles- it's not with Tim, or those who think like him. It's with those who don't.

Like you, YI, I'm just waiting to exhale. with great hope.

Tim, Thank you for your courageous stand,. It's sometimes hard to follow in the foot steps of the carpenter. To spiderman I say this. I will pray for you. I will pray that God/dess gives you exactly what you deserve.

Tim, thanks for your follow-up, and I for one appreciate your efforts to reach out. We have too many urgent problems in this country, and we all have a stake in finding the right solutions.

Well, those who want to turn away from the hatred, division, and destruction the Right has wrought on our nation, certainly have plenty of ways to show bona fides: encourage Republicans in office not to keep pursuing the same tactics in another orgy of obstructionism meant to hold the repair of our nation *back* to set up a future candidacy. We don't have time for that.

And vote Democrat, if you haven't already. Don't be swayed or deterred by their eleventh hour smears that obviously aren't meant to appeal to reason or justice.

I agree completely. I sincerely hope that this is where the mass of America is heading. As a long suffering member of the name-called, disparaged, and disrespected "left" side of the country I would welcome the people with whom I may respectfully disagree back into a constructive, civil discourse. The division of this country has been very painful, not to mention destructive, for everyone and the people that have profited from it need to go. Hopefully this election will bring us back to being one America with different visions, but with a single heart.

To Rev. Harrison. Why Now? Last night, Nov 3, 2008 and this morning as I voted I began to feel a little peace of mind and soul after 8 years of the Middle Ages, Dark Ages Theocratic absolute moralism "Our Way - or the Highway to one of our concentration camps". This message was approved and still is approved by the Republican Party Religious right wing absolute moralists such as James Dobson of Focus on the Family and his ilk, which has included you Rev. Harrison. I would have liked to say you were suckered into this crowd of God Haters by George Walker Bush but I believe the truth to be is that George Walker Bush was just a means to an end for you and the other Republican Party absolute moralists to impose a Republican Party Theocratic Dictatorship on the United States of America for your own benefit. For you with your Christian theology background to now say you personally did not realize you and your ilk were spouting hate and you now are undergoing a Christ like conversion to reality and want to talk to us, your Religious outcasts, has to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt. I will say I welcome you to the World God created for all humans not just members of the United States Republican Party Right Wing Religious Theocratic "my way or the highway" tyrants.

"If you really want to change (and help others like you "come out") then start by listening to people who aren't exactly like you. Respect the views and beliefs of others."

I read an interesting statistic that the closer together people live, the more Democratic they tend to be, and vice versa. This neatly explains why the big cities are typically liberal and the farm belts are typically conservative. Perhaps this is explained by considering that when people live closer together, they are exposed to more viewpoints other than their own?

So this would seem to be a liberal concept - the acceptance of other beliefs and viewpoints. So we would be asking Conservatives to become more Liberal. Well, we'll see ...

My goodness, Tim. After eight years of a scorched-earth policy toward your fellows, you now want to reconcile? You might start with a real apology for supporting a war that has killed thousands. You might start with a real apology to those that you and your kind vilified. You might apologize for all the lies. You might take your absolutes and stuff them, and while you are at it, mind your own business and let others live their own lives. I could go on and on but I can feel my blood pressure going up. I don’t trust an evangelical offering a hand in case it might have a viper in it. To me you’re a fifth column. Sorry, guy!

By the way, however the election goes, there's certainly one thing a lot of Evangelicals looking to reconcile with the rest of America can do:

George Bush still has a couple months in office, ...and big finance crashing our economy for the insurance, so to speak, isn't the last or only looting and slash-and-burn in progress: while all this has been going on, he's gone on deregulating, trying to gut environmental regulations, and Gods know what else.

You really want to be part of the solutions to things, rein that boy in.

I'm sure his nest is feathered well-enough as it is without making things worse.

GAIJINSAMURAI:

Hmmm... Nice:

"If you're a lefty and you posted a nasty response to this, please be aware that those of us in the middle of the political spectrum have just seen you at your worst - and an evangelical at his best. Perhaps you should consider your own level of moral certainty and hypocrisy before you speak next time."

Tim, I welcome your sentiments.

I disagree with your basic beliefs about evolution, reproductive rights, gay marriage, and pretty much the whole gamut of evangelical wedge issues, but that doesn't mean I have the right to cram my beliefs down your throat through legislation.

Evangelicals for the longest time have been trying to cram their religious, cultural and social beliefs down my throat. If you are sincere, and you represent the leading edge of the evangelical's thinking then welcome and you will find partners in the liberal camp who are willing to work with you against poverty, hatred, prejudice, and injustice.

But you will have to be patient with some of us who need to vent a little first after the past eight years of devastation brought about by an administration who was wholeheartedly sponsored by the evangelical right.

" chris15
"Eight years later you're ready to work together -- now that you're losing. As Jon Stewart said, "F*** all yall." This is MY country again, and we don't need your help."

Well, I don't know if that's a good attitude to take, beyond maybe some satisfaction in seeing the Republicans find the shoe on the other foot.

Frankly, the thing to watch out for is Republicans all of a sudden whining how 'partisan' things are, if they can't get half of the oppressive, greedy, intolerant, and irresponsible things they tried to, and in some cases did, take by 'force' before.

Of *course,* though, there can be a place for everyone in the process of healing and rebuilding our nation, (Well, Spidey and a few others look to be about to have a total apocalyptic meltdown when the polls come in, but you know what I mean.)

If the government can get out of the business of funnelling our wealth to the big corporations while spending a lot of time discussing how hard to make life for me over who I snuggle with, just to please the churches, well, that's progress already.

The Christian Right keeps claiming that the poor can't be helped until they have total control, and then 'Jesus' will bring it.

Meanwhile, we got a pretty useful government here, that could be doing stuff like that. And building a *future.*

The End Times people promise... No future. Just some kind of strange gratification at the cost of our children, our neighbors, our land, and even our prosperity.

But a lot of Christians probably wouldn't be so against, 'Hey, let's help the poor, and the middle class, build an economy based on green technology, where we can be a world leader rather than a dumping market for cheap goods made by people in our outsourced jobs turned to exploitation under sweatshop conditions...'

Well, maybe not in so many words.

But I'm tired of them saying, "God Says No You Can't."

Maybe a mere mortal saying, "Yes We Can" could be the start of something good. For all of us.

Well said, sir. Let the dialogue begin.

YI35,
Yassir,
Thank you for your insightful post.

"Without compassion, religion is meaningless; without humility, our imperatives are based in ego, not spirit; and without a larger perspective of love that embraces all beings, the peace that we so desperately seek will continue to elude us."

Yi35,

Your post is wisdom, nothing less. This Christian thanks you. Yes, yes, it is the Spirit of the Teachings by which we should be led! Too many, far too many, of my fellow Christians simply knee-jerk, mindlessly, to rules shouted by ignorant preachers. They live in the laws of the old testament and revelation, and ignore the teachings of Jesus.

And, yes, Muhammad(PBUH), had many good things to say too.

I read this posting, then read the comments and was shocked by both "side". I am particularly shocked at the "left" and those who are saying things like "now that you've lost you want reconciliation".

Tim Harrison is correct, we need to get past this. Those who have read my posts on WPO know I am center left, pro-Obama, anti-Palin. But now is the time for reconciliation. It is not about us vs. them. We cannot afford to circle the drain with that type of thinking. We MUST reconcile, we must listen to all REASONABLE views, we must RESPECT one another. When extended an olive branch we must not torch it. If we do we will empower Palin types in 2012. When I was growing up I lived in Europe for a while and I was always struck how Europeans said that though they disliked the US Government (Vietnam era) they liked Americans and how they were always fair minded and tried to do the right thing. We must live up to that perception once again. To be a left wing version of Dick Cheney or Sarah Palin is wrong. If indeed Obama and the Democrates are victorious today we must, as winners, include the "losing" side. We must look at the big picture and unite in solving our problems. America cannot move forward if 40-49% of it's population becomes disenfranchised.

All sides need to stop hating.

Right wing media hateful? Are you nuts? Read the responses to your blog. Or the Huffington Post? Or the MSM lying about Sarah Palin? As George Bush moves on to build houses with Jimmy Carter (wouldn't that be a sight), its time to attack every instance of liberal hate you find and convince the moderates that we need the "Right Kind of Change" Whoever wins, if they don't quickly move to fix problems, they will be joining Bush and Carter building houses. Maybe the new guy will crash through the Carter line. Sarah in 2012.

For those of you who've jumped in, my name is Tim Harrison (the author) and I thought I'd respond again and repeat my post from early this morning. Let me answer some of the concerns/questions/critiques:

1) I voted for Barack Obama. I have volunteered for his campaign for months. Have contributed to his campaign for months and have been writing this message for months in area publications and have spoken on NPR on this matter.

This has all come at a high cost to me personally. I say this not to make you sorry for me (because I'm not that stupid), but to let you know this is not some last-minute decision I've taken lightly. I've been an outcast at my church and have taken evangelical heat from a variety of sources. Even my marriage has suffered.

2) the rhetoric seems to continue despite the call for reconciliation. Reconciliation means to restore a friendship or to restore harmony. I don't expect to become buddy-buddy with those who disagree with my views, BUT I do expect us to be able to work together to solve the BIGGER issues that threaten out national security. On this thread (and several rabbit-trail threads here), we're bickering over the same religious-based issues.

3) Will we be able to sit down together, in the spirit of Barack Obama, and talk --- IN A CIVIL MANNER --- about our bigger problems? That is my big concern.

4) I accept all those who disagree with me and my views with open arms. I don't agree with some of their views, but that doesn't mean we can't roll up our sleeves together and get busy (and even enjoy each other's company).

Blessings to you all on this election day!

--- Tim

For those of you who've jumped in, my name is Tim Harrison (the author) and I thought I'd respond again and repeat my post from early this morning. Let me answer some of the concerns/questions/critiques:

1) I voted for Barack Obama. I have volunteered for his campaign for months. Have contributed to his campaign for months and have been writing this message for months in area publications and have spoken on NPR on this matter.

This has all come at a high cost to me personally. I say this not to make you sorry for me (because I'm not that stupid), but to let you know this is not some last-minute decision I've taken lightly. I've been an outcast at my church and have taken evangelical heat from a variety of sources. Even my marriage has suffered.

2) the rhetoric seems to continue despite the call for reconciliation. Reconciliation means to restore a friendship or to restore harmony. I don't expect to become buddy-buddy with those who disagree with my views, BUT I do expect us to be able to work together to solve the BIGGER issues that threaten out national security. On this thread (and several rabbit-trail threads here), we're bickering over the same religious-based issues.

3) Will we be able to sit down together, in the spirit of Barack Obama, and talk --- IN A CIVIL MANNER --- about our bigger problems? That is my big concern.

4) I accept all those who disagree with me and my views with open arms. I don't agree with some of their views, but that doesn't mean we can't roll up our sleeves together and get busy (and even enjoy each other's company).

Blessings to you all on this election day!

--- Tim

Oh, I see, NOW is the time to put religion aside and be conciliatory, not four years ago. Maybe we can try conciliation eight years from now, okay? Let us liberals run wild and ignore the other half of the country that didn't vote like we did, and then, in eight years we'll try conciliation (but only if it looks like right-wingers might get into power again). How about it? Deal?
By the way, I can't believe I actually read this moronic garbage. Anyone who believes in creationism is a moron and should be safely ignored.

For those of you who've jumped in, I thought I'd respond again and repeat my post from early this morning. Let me answer some of the concerns/questions/critiques:

1) I voted for Barack Obama. I have volunteered for his campaign for months. Have contributed to his campaign for months and have been writing this message for months in area publications and have spoken on NPR on this matter.

This has all come at a high cost to me personally. I say this not to make you sorry for me (because I'm not that stupid), but to let you know this is not some last-minute decision I've taken lightly. I've been an outcast at my church and have taken evangelical heat from a variety of sources. Even my marriage has suffered.

2) the rhetoric seems to continue despite the call for reconciliation. Reconciliation means to restore a friendship or to restore harmony. I don't expect to become buddy-buddy with those who disagree with my views, BUT I do expect us to be able to work together to solve the BIGGER issues that threaten out national security. On this thread (and several rabbit-trail threads here), we're bickering over the same religious-based issues.

3) Will we be able to sit down together, in the spirit of Barack Obama, and talk --- IN A CIVIL MANNER --- about our bigger problems? That is my big concern.

4) I accept all those who disagree with me and my views with open arms. I don't agree with some of their views, but that doesn't mean we can't roll up our sleeves together and get busy (and even enjoy each other's company).

Blessings to you all on this election day!

--- Tim

As a moderate it was uplifting to read your thoughts. You probably went a little far out on the preverbal limb and I hope that you do not take too much flap from friends and family. The Christian right as a political force scares me a lot, but so do the extreme left of the Democratic Party, who are every bit as dogmatic as the extreme right and will also vilify and atack if you dare disagree. Both parties should marginalize their extreme wings, but I will not hold my breath. Meanwhile, lets pray that whomever is the choice of the americam people has the vision to work for America and ignores the demands of their Party's base that seen to have but one goal, to continue to polarize our society.

chris15 said :
Eight years later you're ready to work together -- now that you're losing. As Jon Stewart said, "F*** all yall." This is MY country again, and we don't need your help.
-----

"We don't need your help." That is precisely the wrong sentiment. It is wrong, it is dangerous and it is stupid. If Democrats follow that path, it will be 1993 all over again. Republicans are voting for Barack Obama, too. If Obama only gets Democratic votes today, he'll lose. Remember that.

A President Obama will need to meet the needs of as many Americans as possible, not just the foaming-at-the-mouth liberals. For example, there are lots of church-going Southern moderates such as myself who are supporting him. Folks like me will allow him to possibly win Virginia and Florida, and maybe steal North Carolina. You're saying we don't matter? Okay, come talk to me in 2 years.

I agree 100% This is the election that whoever wins as all american we should work together to build our country to be great again or whole again.

Y'know, evangelical bashing is usually one of my favorite sports. All that moral certainty, all of that willful ignorance, all of that wildly presumptuous half-logic. In this case, however, you've really got to admire a man willing to so abjectly admit to the most basic flaws in his core beliefs. Equally, I think you have to be truly horrified by the ugly responses from the left here. Yes, I too feel the anger and frustration of decades of high-handed and obnoxious behavior by he christian right, but this guy just admitted he was wrong and indicated he wanted to make amends. He may stick to his guns, he may not, but either way he's shown a remarkable level of intellectual and moral integrity. If you're a lefty and you posted a nasty response to this, please be aware that those of us in the middle of the political spectrum have just seen you at your worst - and an evangelical at his best. Perhaps you should consider your own level of moral certainty and hypocrisy before you speak next time.

Hmmm, now that your side is on the verge of a devasting political defeat - on the verge of losing all three branches of the US Government - on the verge of not being able to even mount a filibuster in the Senate - on the verge of becoming politially powerless as a party - NOW suddenly you want to wave the white flag and start talking about cooperation and bipartisinship. Hmmm, there's something real stinky here ...

I must say that I find it more than a little disgusting that after the right-wing Evangelicals have done so much harm to this counrty (and probaly lost the election) are they willing to apologize and seek a new way. Firsat, Mr. Harrison, let's see you speaK out among your brethren, where it counts, and work to change their views. Liberals have never been the problem -- we accept anyone. We just don't want you and your cohorts telling us how tolove, who to marry, or whether or not to proceed with a pregnancy.

"Our forefathers --- in their wisdom --- created the separation of church and state."

This statement, although repeated and repeated, is simply not true. I was very surprised to learn that our forefathers actually resided in States that had official state churches/religion. It was only the Federal Government that could not "establish religion". Do you believe that our forefathers considered the posting of the 10 commandments in our schools or on government property as a violation of the Constitution? Of course not. Please review the historical records - you'll find lots of examples of our forefathers supporting an active role of religion.

Please don't misunderstand me - I do not believe that we should have an official church. Further, evangelicals do not want religious control of government. Rather, the ability to have freedom of religion. To be free to hold to the biblical view that same sex marriage is not to be sanctioned, to be free to celebrate our religious heritage, to be free to receive government funding even if your organization is a religious one. The Courts have steadily re-written history and taken away many of these rights. Without the appointment of "strict constructionists", the Court will continue their move to "find" new rights - the right to an abortion, the right to same sex marriage, etc.

As an evangelical, I do not believe that government should be the answer. Yet, there are those that believe the Government must stop printing money with "In God we Trust" and must stop reciting prayers before legislative sessions, and must remove "under God" in the pledge of allegiance. Such a view was never "the wisdom of the founding fathers".

Time seems to be seeing things in a new light. I've always felt that absolutes in any religion are detrimental to the whole. What it seems to me is missing in Christianity, as it is in Islam and Judaism, is the confidence to be guided by the spirit of the teachings, rather than being tied to the "books." Of course, for fundamentalists of many religions, belief is text-driven, hence deconstructing the bible and other religious books has become the the main tool to push for change. The personal epiphany, as Tim seems to be experiencing, is far more powerful and relevant. Why? Because it is more authentically rooted in an individual knowing, forged from a direct conversation with the great spirit, or God, if you will. To me, that is faith; a willingness to question one's most fundamental assumptions at the risk of personal discomfort, even divergence from the orthodoxy. (Was this not the experience of Jesus Christ, the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH), Thomas Merton, Saint John of the Cross...the list goes on).

The leadership, whom Tim heretofore voted for, passed his simple litmus test of faith by correctly answering questions related to the trinity of issues that seem to be the benchmark of U.S. fundamentalists: abortion, gay rights, and evolution. This method is flawed because it fails to capture the spirit of faith, or deliver on the compassion that a truly religious (spiritual) person should be motivated by. In eight years, we've seen twenty times the death toll of 9/11 in civilian killings alone, we've seen poverty increase at home and abroad, we've seen more kids left behind, we've further decimated our natural environment--a mass increase in suffering. Enough killing, enough pain.

Kieslowski, the great Polish film maker from a devoutly Catholic nation, produced a marvelous series of ten short films, "The Decalogue," which explored the Ten Commandments. With grace and insight, he asks us to ponders a series of complex moral dilemmas faced by ordinary people living in Poland that a simple reading of the bible alone, cannot not answer. These are the types of issues we as individuals, and as a society, must grapple with. People of all religions should watch this. Without compassion, religion is meaningless; without humility, our imperatives are based in ego, not spirit; and without a larger perspective of love that embraces all beings, the peace that we so desperately seek will continue to elude us.

Tonight, we are all, to quote Terry McMillan, simply waiting to exhale.

Yassir Islam

A robber was caught in the crosshairs of a homeowner's gun, and became very apologetic and polite... and yet the homeowner wondered, how polite would this young man be if I didn't have a gun?
In short, the evangelicals pulled out all stops to demonize and condemn to hell people who didn't believe in their own particular politics.... and now, having lost, they show an interest in reconciliation. Great...but how polite would they be if they had Palin in the White House? That's what I'm still wondering.

Thanks Sir. I'm a Republican candidate who has heard more hatred from my own party towards the Obama supporters than I knew was possible. The anger really should be directed at the fact that the Republicans didn't elect a strong candidate during the primary.

I don't know how two people can see the same two things so differently. Jeremiah Wright type sermons are offered at least 3x month in nearly every black church. He has recently, unfortuately, shown to have more personal problems than anyone knew.

Could your column possibly be run in local papers in Raleigh and Charlotte? The publisher and editors are kinda strange, however, I think you'll find many willing ears ready to listen.

Eight years later you're ready to work together -- now that you're losing. As Jon Stewart said, "F*** all yall." This is MY country again, and we don't need your help.

Gotta love it how the Republicans will claim 'The Left' and the Democrats are really more intolerant, somehow, then go on to say somehow it's about 'chains' and that we're liars and bad people.

The only problem with the rumors of our viciousness is, the GOP attack machine made that up, too.

There is certainly a lot of getting-reality-backwards on the Right, but sometimes the facts do just have a 'liberal bias.'

Maybe that's why the Republicans have thrown the facts to the winds and gone with smears and lies.

Don't worry, there can be reconciliation, though, of course, that'd mean the Christian Right needs to.... Stop attacking.

You've been trumpeting your 'This is a'Christian Nation' so we Christian conservatives and only we count.'

After voting that completely Unamerican sentiment resulted in almost total disaster on all counts for the country, ...well, it's time for a change.

Many people who aren't for war and Big Religion and Big Money running roughshod all over our lives and our nation and our future and our world... May turn out to be more gracious in victory than Fox News would lead you to believe.

If the Right hasn't cheesed em off too much.

I'm sympathetic with Mr. Harrison's sentiments, but I don't know what the takeaway is. Is it that evangelicals should compromise with progressives to deal with big picture economic issues, while agreeing to disagree on wedge issues such as gay marriage and abortion? I could agree with that. Problem is, those last two issues aren't going away. If evangelicals and progressives agree to promote renewable energy, and then progressives legalize gay marriage, will evangelicals continue to work with progressives on economic issues, or will they be disgusted and revert to type out of spite? That would be a test of the sincerity of his view.

The behavior of the religious right has always puzzled me. The Jesus I know, the most powerful man ever to stride the earth, never owned any material goods, raised an army, or battled the government. He consorted with the poor, diseased, and distraught, sinners all, and admonished "that he who is without sin to cast the first stone". He was and is a God of love, brotherhood, and forgiveness - even as He died on the cross. To think that Anne Coulter, Sean Hannity and others of their ilk have claimed to represent his moral teachings is unbelievable to me - they are the antithesis of his message. Think again about what Jesus represents (even to non-believers) and perhaps you'll understand why your intolerance has been so frustrating to others - it is not Christian in any way. I welcome the change of heart, Tim, and I hope its not too late for you to contribute to the change that IS coming, whether or not Obama is elected.

All I can say is WOW! I mean to say, that the hatred that is spewed on these comments are unbelievable. The left is no angel to the right. It's not like I have spent the last 12 years (since I changed parties) feeling all warm and fuzzy inside when the left spit hatred remarks at us. You know one thing I don't understand about the democratic party it proclaims to be the party for the 'little' people - all the while it bashes anyone that doesn't agree with them. Anyone that takes another stance from their views gets chastised and demonized.
Yes the right has their voice and some on the right have demonized those on the left. But if we want any kind of reconciliation it has to be done in the air of honesty first. The first bitter pill of honest would be that the Democratic party spews as much hatred toward the Republican party if not more. The previous postings proves my point.

The Right stands for everyone - FREEDOM
The Left stands for no one - Chains

You all can make you own choice but I spent over twenty years looking at the hypocracy of the left and I still see that hypocracy when I visit this Washington Post blogging site.

A German woman of the underground movement against the holocaust was heard saying:
They came for the Jews and I would not stand up for them.
They came for the Christians and I would not stand up for them
They came for the Agnostics and I would not stand up for them
They came for the Atheist and I would not stand up for them
They came for the homosexual and I would not stand up for them
They came for me & my people and no one was there to stand up for us.

If you want to take a stand make sure the stand is one that worth taking and stand up for someone outside of your whelm for a change. That's what this man was trying to do and you all just spit in his face.

Hopefully he will see this for what it is and wake up to see the truth.

I'm glad to read this article. Maybe its a start for evangelicals to realize where they have gone wrong. However, too many of them have become what are referred to as "American Taliban" or "New Christian Nazi Party". If you aren't one of them, you are the ENEMY and you will be dealt with eventually. Jesus never spoke like that and I'm sure he would be horrified to hear some of the garbage coming out of Sarah Palin's mouth, and out of certain churches.

Evangelicals are all about power, not about true Christianity.

Good luck Mr. Harrison. My husband was raised an evangelical Christian and it took him years to be free of the intense brainwashing he'd received. As a mainline Protestant, it fascinates me that it has taken so many Evangelicals so long to figure out that you cannot legislate morality. Morality is taught at home and in the church, it is not the responsibility of the government.

If you really want to change (and help others like you "come out") then start by listening to people who aren't exactly like you. Respect the views and beliefs of others.

And next time you vote, look at the evidence of what the party you're voting for has done to the country. As one example of about a million, "values voters" have abortion as their top priority. But in the past 40 years, of the 14 people appointed to the Supreme Court, 12 of them have been put there by Republican presidents. And Roe v. Wade is still the law of the land. Do you think maybe it's time to stop trying to dictate what grown women should do with their bodies and start concentrating on something else? Like poor children, children without health care, and homeless children?

Ask yourself a question when you feel the tug of the culture warriors -- Do you want peace or do you just want to be right? Because on the question of abortion, greater access to and information about birth control could drastically reduce the number of abortions that occur in this country. But if you want to force abstinence only "education" down our throats too, then we can never have peace over this issue and be able to move on to the next one.

SPARROW4 said :
"tim may have had an epiphany too little and too late for some but let's not make the mistake of throwing back in his face what he offers. If you really believe in bi=partisanship and healing, slapping him around is not what you should be doing. Instead we ought to be finding out ways we can...."

One of the cornerstones of liberal philosophy is peacemaking and peacekeeping. Liberals pride themselves, (perhaps incorrectly, no?), in supporting peace whenever possible and avoiding or countering warmaking. We support the health of the least and the disadvantaged lest they be walked over, and have the ideal of a more utopian society where all may come and be safe. No?

It seems the answer is no from what I hear from many of the professed left leaners here. How is that in keeping with beliefs? You all whine about having been slammed and abused by the evil neo-cons and social conservatives who for eight years have had no interest in your concerns, only their own. OK, true enough. Yet what do you do now. Do you have concern about them now as your side rises? Or is it sc**w 'em, they deserve pain?
Ye become the Ceasar ye despised. You look for the blood of the hypocrite. Vengence is mine, saith the liberal.

Hey, I got an idea. Crucify him. Come on. They all deserve it, those neo-con bullies, right? And it must have been fun for the Romans. in their day.
Shiites are doing it now, since their star is rising. The perogative of those in power, right?

No, I got a better idea. Soften your hearts and be that which you respect, not what you say you revile. Reach a hand out, as much as you can, and be part of the solution that you talk about. Do not only stand for change in rhetoric. BE the change that you stand for.
May we all live truthfully, and be the change that we stand for.
I appreciate all the Tim Harrisons of the world, even if their epiphanies come a little late. That is the time that change comes, when it is most needed.
I appreciate those on all sides who have the courage to let go of wounds of battles fought and find common ground for a better future. Who is game?

Have a fulfilling and uplifting Election day!
Justin

This is a nice statement.

But it would have been a POWERFUL statement if he had written it over the summer, or even in the past few weeks when "smear and fear" was runnin' through the pews.

Next election, try calling for calm in the midst of the campaign, when the knives are out. Coming right now, this just reads like a hedging-of-bets.

Good job Tim. You just gave a bunch of people more reason to hate evangelicals. You got the reconciliation thing down.

Why don't we try living for truth and God next time?

"I've begun to realize that morality shouldn't be legislated. However, that stance is unthinkable, as well, to an evangelical. Evangelicals feel that God should be on the throne in our country."
That's not exactly Biblical, brother. The Bibles tells us to do everything we do to the glory of God, but it also states that God has a definite hand in who governs nations. We're told to be IN the world but not OF the world. That is, we cannot be one person in private and another one in public. I agree that morality should NEVER be legislated, but that doesn't imply that we should not offer suggestions to friends (including fellow church members) who they might vote on for moral reasons.

"If we are going to tackle the huge, complex issues and problems facing our country today, we are going to have to check our religion-based stances at the door. This country is too large and too diverse to apply one set of religious absolutes to every citizen."
Again, we are who we are. WE decide to be Christians or we don't. Being a Christian doesn't meaning greeting everybody with a "Hey, friend, do you know JESUS?" (I can't stand having that forces on ME, either!) It instead means that we live on high, unwavering principles which are reflected in every phase of our lives. If we are living for God, we can't POSSIBLY "leave it at the door"!! Christians should be able to work VERY well with others, knowing we are no more perfect than THEY are.

There IS a lot of healing needed. America is not ready for a black president. If Obama wins, you'll see this clearly before long. We'll know the election results in a few hours. Neither whites OR blacks are mature enough for a black president, and this election is not based upon common sense. Ignorant people are STILL voting for Palin because she's a woman or for Obama because he's black. What breed of morons is this? Americans USED TO vote according to conscience. Now they'll vote for their "native" PARTY rather than the person who is best qualified for the job, or they'll vote for the opposite party of the incumbents who about to LEAVE office! Du-uh...

Thank you to Mr. Harrison for making the much-needed statement. We can all do better, and the end-goal is worth it.

I just HOPE that there can be reconciliation once our next President is selected tonight, then we can all put Our Country First and forget political divisions.

Though the election campaign so many have claimed they have freedom to attack the way they do, but then if someone else states their opinion, they shout them down with abuse, this I have found so sad. Yes politics are important and having strong beliefs but people come first.

You're a little late to the party. Given the damage that you and your ilk have done to our country over the past 25 years or so, you'll forgive me if I'm not jumping up and down for joy at your belated conversion to one of the nation's primary founding principles. I guess it finally occurred to you that Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, George Mason, James Madison, and George Washington, to name just a few, had just a bit more on the ball than you do. Gee, I hope it didn't strain your intellect to come to this conclusion.

Thanks for reaching out. One magazine that adds fresh air to the "stuck" positions of liberal/conservative is christiancentury.org. We need such resources if we're going to build bridges.

I thoroughly enjoyed this article and wholeheartedly agree. It was a breath of fresh air to read something that was not condemning, but, recognizing the need for healing regardless of our religious beliefs and affiliations. Thank you for taking the time to right such a thoughtful and insightful article.

I welcome this attitude from the religious right. I was raised by the religious right but am now a proud member of the secular left, partly because I recognized when I was a teen that the same people who taught us to sing "red and yellow, black and white, all are precious in his sight" were the same people who used the N word outside church.

During the Bush years, I noticed other contradictions such as sanctity of life does not apply to foreigners we're afraid of or children in the US who need health care.

For this country to heal the wounds of the Bush years, those of us who value diversity, religious freedom and being my brother's keeper need to extend an olive branch to all the right wing people who open their hearts to loving their neighbors, here and abroad.

Perhaps Tim is about to recognize that GOD is more complicated than religious absolutes. So, let's take him at his word and try to work together. For example, let's hope Obama reaches out to McCain and offers him a chance at redemption. Allow him to reemerge as the 2000 straight shooter trusted by both parties. Let him lead the charge to clean up military procurement and cut unneeded weapons systems.

Tim, will you recognize that the electoral college subverts the concept of one person one vote and over enfranchises small population states that have a higher than average preponderance of religious fundamentalists? Will you fight to end this injustice though it quells your potential political power?

Our Constitution provides for a separation of church and state. I understand people can vote on what they deem to be black and white moral issues, but we have a secular government, and if you want to live in a theocracy then you need to find another place to live.

That's it.

How convenient.

Way back in elementary school, we had a bully. Like most bullies, he had a little crowd of cronies who'd watch and encourage him as he picked on smaller kids, humiliated the unpopular, and did everything he could to make life miserable for as many people as possible. This went on for years.

During the summer prior to the 5th grade, I had a growth spurt. I'd always been athletic, and it seemed to pay off all at once - I grew several inches and packed on pounds of muscle through exercise, driven by the thought of pummeling the bully and freeing my school of his antisocial tyranny.

September finally rolled around, and on the first day of school the bully got a load of me and several others among his former victims who'd grown big and strong over the summer. Immediately, he changed his tone. He talked about how wrong he'd been, and admitted that his bullying had been a cover for his feelings of inadequacy after his parents' divorce. He said that if we all worked together, we could now begin to improve the sense of community at our school, and maybe we could all live together and be accepting of one another. He decried the peer pressure that had forced him to act the way he had, and promised that he'd be more thoughtful and considerate in the future.

My friends and I thought about this - here was an opportunity to show the bully the compassion he'd never shown us. It was a chance to take the high road, and demonstrate once and for all that might does not make right - that 'because I can' is not a proper justification for selfishness and abuse. Here was our opportunity to truly mature socially, as we'd matured physically over the summer. We looked at each other, my friends and I, as we held these same thoughts, unspoken, in our minds.

Then we pummeled the obnoxious, lying, bullying A-hole within an inch of his life.

It's easy to sing the praises of peace and harmony when it looks like you're outgunned, Timmy, but people remember the advantage you took when you were powerful and your opponents were weak, and your protestations make you look opportunistic and sleazy. You Rightards are going to have to take your lumps now. Sorry.

Talk is cheap, and actions speak louder than words. If you want to put the fear mongering, divisiveness, and my-way-or-the-highway mentality behind you, then do that. Good for you. Live your life that way every day. Respect others' point of view. Recognize what you don't know. Be humble. Work on yourself. A newspaper column means little. How you comport yourself every day of your life--that is what matters.

As a gay professing saved Christian with AIDS - I'm NOT buying it, mister. You need a true conviction of the Holy Spirit in your heart. "By their fruits shall ye know them." If you are truly sincere about your desire to change, the only true change will be effected by the power of the Spirit and the transforming grace of God.

TIMJOEBOB :

Thank you for starting the firestorm! Arsonist!
My guess is that some of these posters come into the forum loaded for bear, so to speak, and intent on bear hunting. Some could be hit with the blinding light of God and continue to see nothing but themselves. At best they may wonder why there was a power spike, and then continue with no new thoughts or insights.
Your gift here is to more fully open up a specific dialogue about reconciliation as you extend a hand. Those that have the right priorities may recognize that and take your hand in faith and trust. Some will distrust, but wonder and consider. Success does not mean that we all have immediate ceassation of hostilities. That would be too much to hope. But healing is a process and you have inspired an important part of that process here. Thank you for that.
I appreciate your honesty about your process. I posted earlier that I assumed that you had not changed your politics but had changed your perspective on the validity of 'negative' tactics to realize conservative aims. I was wrong and appreciate being corrected. I commend your courage to go so contrary to your family and support group because it is right for you to do. That is tough work. Good luck in your process, and I hope that your outreach is fruitful for you and those that you love.
I am fully with you regarding your message of reconciliation. I look forward to that spreading. I do not think one needs to cross into opposition territory, or to switch sides, to reconcile. But it helps to walk a mile in the shoes, for sure. I look forward to conservative christians and liberal 'socialists' :-) standing in their own shoes while finding where they have common ground.
If we trade shoes for awhile it is all the better.
Blessing on you and yours as well. Thanks for the heat.
Justin

bevjims1 wrote:

What about torture?
What about stopping promising medical research? What about starting wars on nations that did us no harm?
What about helping the rich while ignoring the poor?
What about lying to the American people?
What about outing a CIA agent for political spite?

Uh, where are we voting on these issues? Bush will NOT be in office after January, but we really don't know exactly WHERE McCain OR Obama stand on them or what they would do about them.

tim may have had an epiphany too little and too late for some but let's not make the mistake of throwing back in his face what he offers. If you really believe in bi=partisanship and healing, slapping him around is not what you should be doing. Instead we ought to be finding out ways we can increase the number of Tims, and find good, thoughtful, questioning people who are coming to realize what a mistake it is to force religion on this country and to rule it in fear. There's plenty of the out there who know our fate is in unifying, not fighting, in accepting and even appreciating our differences as Americans, not as liberal/conservatine or right and left.

This is a huge opportunity to not only make it right for our children, but to show them how to keep it right for theirs. we can't repeat the mistakes of the conservative and religious right. I think Tim has proven himself and it has cost him dearly. We should be shaking his hand, not slapping him down. Face it folks- we're going to need all the Tims we can get if we are going to get the change we need. And I think Obama would be the first to tell you that too.

Now this is a shock. RNC filed a complaint against Senator Obama for going to visit his sick grandmother with campaign money. The complaint says Mrs. Dunham wasn't that sick. If the RNC had waited a few hours they would have learned she died. Senator Obama spoke to supporters and contacted his Hawaii headquarters while visiting his sick grandmother.

Elizabeth Dole has an Ad that the Dem candidate is Godless. While knowing this lady is an Elder of her Church and has taught Sunday School for many years.

God was watching even as religious leaders spread hate and lies using God's Name to do it.
Now to say let's heal might be enough for Americans but let's see what God thinks. We all have to answer to God for our misconduct even the Church.

How can a Church spread so much hate and then act like it's ok? I really hope God can forgive those who have done Satan's work over the pass 8 years. Judas was an example to us all.

Interesting that Evangelicals would dare mention reconciliation of political parties when they can not see the elephant in the room. How about the Catholics down the street or the Mormons across town? We have a local Baptist preacher who rails against the Catholic Virgin Mary. And then there is Hagee in San Antonio who does not even allow his congregation to wear crosses around their neck. I happen to be Buddhist, God only knows what Hagee thinks about us. My suggestion: Clean up your own backyard before you pontificate to others what they should believe and do.

In other words, now that we Christians have made complete jack&^*%s of ourselves, stolen your freedoms, started and prosecuted two filthy wars, trashed your Constitution, murdered a million innocent Muslims, displaced millions more, wrapped ourselves in our self-righteousness, conceit and contempt, PLEASE don't blame us for the Hell we've created.

Mr. Harrison makes a good point about vilification and reconciliation. However he confuses Christian principles (those taught by Jesus Christ-which called for us to expand our thoughts & behavior from obedience to the letter of the law to include the intent of the law). There are moral laws that transcend denominational doctrines; i.e. killing, stealing, lying, etc. and are fundamental to all religions whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. and even are the moral foundation for non-believers. Taking the life of unborn babies is still taking a life. Breaking established law is still lawlessness. But to say there aren't moral principles involved with energy sources, nor financial markets, security, etc. then I believe you've missed the entire Christian point you claim to stand for. And if our leaders would apply true Christian principles in their governance, everyone would be better off. And you'd still have that mythical separation of church and state.

One way to let the healing process begin is if all evangelical trash sign a pledge never again to enter politics and to admit that they are stupid and clueless.

America is not a Christian nation, it only has Christian based values, PERIOD.

It's about time the right realizes that this is a democracy and not a theocracy. I am a minister in a very conservative Pentecostal organization. I've felt this way for a long time- that a persons vote is their business, just as the individual choices they make. The problem has always been HOW the Christian right view all "other" (that word has been used a lot)Christians. Bush adapted that when he told the world you are with us or against us; no middle ground,no compromise. It's always been either you agree with us or you are an "other". To me that is a code word for division and maintaining the stuts quo to include race, which is really all about class warefare (Tom Wise). "Other" means all African Americans and immigrants, who do not view the country and God through the same lens as the "gun and religion" WHITE christian folks. Listen, please vote your party, your conscience, your race, your religion, whatever--it's your right period. But dont slam others who do not agree. i dont agree with a lot of my fellow believers on religious issues, but we still love and respect one another.I did not support the war (I'm a retired vet.)and believe it was a mistake. Does that make me a bad Christian, a liberal? Is bombing innocent folks justified in the eyesight of God any more than abortion or racism? When you judge one by the color of their skin you are a sinner and need to repent. We Amercans can be very choosy when it comes to our indignation, or ISRAEL. Our President used and "PIMPED" the Christian right, and instead of being angry, they make excuses as to why they will lose this election. John MCcain was a good candidate who could have won, if only he had stayed JOHN MCCAIN, and not pandered to the RIGHT. Obama is not "one of us", he's liberal, he cant be trusted, but Bush and Cheney can. Hypocrites!So my fellow right, white, christian conservatives, YOU GET THE END RESULT of your views. You will be out of office for a LONG TIME unless you actally become compassionate conservatives. Your voting block is no longer the rule, as new people (thats what community organizers do)start into the process. Good luck America and Obama, and what an irony. Who would have thunk that out of the ashes of this administration our nation would elect a BLACK- LIBERAL-"OTHER"? What a counrty! only in MY America...

Now that you're going to lose, you want a truce?

no.

Remove ALL of the Liberty and Regent University people from the government.

undo ALL of the damage that Cheney did first.

then maybe we'll talk.

or not.

Post election healing will begin when we put George Bush and Dick Cheney on a non stop KLM flight to The Hague where they can stand trial for genocide and war crimes.

DwightCollins wrote: "...if you believe in abortion, you are not a Christian...you do not follow Christ..."

What about torture?
What about stopping promising medical research? What about starting wars on nations that did us no harm?
What about helping the rich while ignoring the poor?
What about lying to the American people?
What about outing a CIA agent for political spite?

Are you a Christian of you support any of these things because supporters of Bush certainly support these things.

No one "believes" in abortion Dwight. Once you understand that those who support a woman's right to choose an abortion can also be against abortion themselves, then you will reach your next level of enlightenment, a level that does not pretend to understand the rationals of others nor pretend they know better than others. Until then please excuse me for ignoring your intolerant pontification on who is following Christ when your beliefs in Bush's righteousness have lead to unending war, presidentially approved torture and the financial ruining of this great nation. If only you would care for the born as much as you seem care for the unborn.

What a slimewad.

One solution is to rethink what an evangelical is.

If you really think about it, being an evangelical means you have certain theological beliefs about Jesus' resurrection from the dead, the personal nature of God, etc, etc.

It also means you take Jesus extremely seriously.

Jesus was never out to change the political system around him. He never even said anything about putting God back on the throne and reforming the political system in Israel, which was clearly supposed to be a theocracy in his day.

So it's actually very Christ-like to not focus on "putting God on the throne" in American politics.

Thank You,

I have had to explain to my grandchildren that white conservatives believe their racism and hatred is condoned by God. The God they seem to serve is unloving, bigotted and concerned about only men/women/children witout color. When I stand in a pulpit I wonder what kind of pulpit a man stands in and justifies God cares about one party affiliation more than another.It is difficult to explain to your Grandchildren that you feel that they have value even though they hear the racist jargon, that you are a Christian even though a pastor says you are not because of his hate. I pray that you are protected by angels and that God removes the posts from the eyes of others who defile the blood of Christ with disguised patriotism (bigotry). My great grandfather was white. I was born in Selma. I was too young to hear the horror then, but this campaign has helped me to understand the vileness of the 50's and 60's. May God bless and keep you brother of ministry.

When Conservatives and Liberals "all get along" we get debacles like Iraq and the War on Terror. No thanks. Perhaps a more civil debate can occur, but "working together"? Wouldn't sort of be like having only 1 party? Oh, wait, that is the case now...

"if you believe in abortion, you are not a Christian...you do not follow Christ..."

Please tell me when Christ mentioned abortion, even once.

And please tell me why it is that when abortion is mentioned in the Bible (when one harms a pregnant woman causing her pregnancy to end), the only punishment for it is a monetary fine paid to the father of the child?

NOW you want a reconciliation? Isn't that like starting a food fight, throwing your tray of food in someone else's face, and THEN suddenly calling for a truce or a "time out?" Where was this voice of conscience while gays were being beaten to death and demonized and turned into the wedge? When abortion rights advocates were being threatened with (or even given) a death sentence? When mandatory christian prayer in schools was being rammed down our throats? Who started this culture war? Uh, that would be you.

The day we all work togeather is the day abortion is outlawed...
until then Preach to end abortion...
if you believe in abortion, you are not a Christian...you do not follow Christ...

"Can someone explain this villifying to me? I'm hearing a lot of this but I see no examples."

Sure. For decades now the religious right has painted gay people as child molesting sexual deviants who want to force Christian churches to perform gay marriages, who want to prey on children, who want to 'destroy marriage', etc.

If that isn't villifying (and bearing false witness and lying) I don't know what is.

As I read the comments in this thread I see that the religious right still, for the most part doesn't get it. They use their religion to beat people who don't agree. "if you break gods law you have to pay!" Not if I don't believe in your god. I did, but people like you sent me running the other way. Who would want to follow a god whose purpose is to force others onto their knees and in to subservience? Who sends you to hell if you dare to disagree?

You and your ilk have spent the last 20 years demonizing gay people and others you don't like.

And suddenly when you are no longer in power you want to play nice?

Where was this sentiment for the past 20 years?

If you really want to go forward in harmony, you need to stop funding anti-gay initiatives. Stop right now.

Otherwise I simply can't believe in your new-found spirit of cooperation.

How nice to see someone from the Christian right finally getting it. While both sides have been contentious and annoying, I think that the Christian right has caused the most damage and, speaking for myself only, has driven me away from God, or anything to do with their religion. The God I grew up with would never preach hate like these people have for so long.

We do have huge issues that need to be addressed, and they need to be addressed with out religion factoring in at all. What's best for this country, this planet and what your religion says is right are generally 2 entirely different things. The only way we can solve the problems we face is if we work together and stop vilifying people with different religious views. Religion and politics need to separate, now.

I just want to say that we Christians need to focus on the fact that we are in this world but are not part of this world. We belong to the kingdom of God. Jesus Christ is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and we must follow his directives no matter what some "Christian" group may say about the issues.

Here in America we as Christians have the freedom of religion because of faith of those who came here Europe seeking that freedom. In so doing, we need to exercise in heart, mind and deeds that Jesus of Nazereth is our King. In so doing our alligence should not be democrat nor republican, it should be for Jesus. Therefore in my humble opinion we should cast our ballot with God, Almighty. This means that instead of casting a vote for men, we need to cast our vote in heaven to him. There is nothing impossible with God. He is the one who should be picking our leaders here on earth and not Christians. Because we belong ultimately to the Kingdom of God.

Thanks.

Yes, now that they are going to get their hats handed to them, they all want to work with the Latte Lappin' Liberals. I wonder how anxious they would be to work with us if they won the White House, Senate and House?

spidermean2 :
Like Eve in the garden, Tim is clueless to what he is doing.

"it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Eve and Jezebel is the personification of the Democrats.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

See how the prophecy will UNRAVEL.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spidermean2,

There is nothing even remotely Christ-like in anything you say. If you had any real brains you would realize that it is YOU that should repent and ask for God's forgiveness for spreading hatred and fear. Your rants are an utter disgrace to all. You are far away from the light...

Tim,

Here's the good news – you don't have to change your beliefs, just understand that though we all have a variety of beliefs, we all share a common commitment to our democratic society. That those who do not share your outlook are no less American or patriotic than yourself and that they have as much of a right to their beliefs as you. Also, I think many conservative Christians confuse the "what" with "how". I've never felt that evangelicals should change what they believe, only that they understand that others are free to not believe the same things and that it is not right or constructive for evangelicals to think that they can change the belief of others simply by making their beliefs into law.

I'm a Christian, though not evangelical nor conservative. But there are many issues that you and I probably agree on. All of us will have to work together and focus on our shared values. Ben Franklin said it best, "We must hang together, gentlemen…else, we shall most assuredly hang separately“

"Every time you turn on the TV you see what I'm talking about. The right-wing media wields its fury full-force on those who disagree with them... and it doesn't matter who that is. "

I disagree with you... Every time I turn on the TV and news paper... I see more of the left-wing media wields its fury full-force on those who disagree with them..."... I'm really sick and tired of those left-wing media... it's not about religious.. it's about moral values that make left and right different. The moral values that the left support will hurt our next generations...

justillthen : "The 'onus' is on each of us to resolve to forgive so that healing can take place."

What a common problem. Yet the idea of forgiving sets aside the actuality of our own responsibility in any conflict. Forgiving says it is all on the other side, and we are choosing to forget it. Not going to happen. Recognizing one's own culpability and addressing it first and even exclusively points to the only resolution of these problems of conflict, those things that one can actually do to fix it. Resolution comes in deciding to do those things.

I am glad that an evangelical person is beginning to see the light. Just know that those who believe the way you used to will now view you as a traitor, a proponent of the one-world government, and an Anti-Christ worshipper. Welcome to sanity (is it the blue pill or the red pill, NEO?)!

P.S. Ignore Spidermean2 and he/she will go away.

Sounds to me that your just a left-winger in religious clothes. Sort of like Jeremiah Wright. How someone who is of your, alleged, ilk, could vote for a left wing radical with dubious associations and no foreign policy experience is beyond my understanding and makes me very skeptical about your honesty and the reason that you have "exposed" yourself on this day. Bad choice.

Thank you very much Reverend! Well said.

We need to stop all this divisiveness. What a lot of my right wing friends (and I have many) do not realize is that the right wing people they listen to are making a LOT of money from dividing the country. That is their only objective.

Tim Harrison, Thank you. Can we clone you?
I was a supporter of Hillary Clinton, then Barack Obama. I believe this nation will need your voice in the upcoming years to help heal us.
I also believe that people like you and me can respect each other and work together to help solve the serious problems we face.

Bravo Tim. Peace and blessings to you on your journey of enlightenment.

One love, one heart, one world.

Mr. Harrison,

There's no 12-step program for people addicted to Jesus, but this is a very good first step.

No doubt you've gone outside your comfort zone, your church, or perhaps cul-de-sac and have discovered that there's an America where "different" isn't bad, it's good.

Our country has a remarkable tool box at hand to tackle almost any issue when we put our minds to it. One of the tools in that box is compromise. Another is pragmatism in light of the facts. Am I hearing correctly that perhaps evangelicals should consider those tools more often than they do now? Because nothing will get done if we stand around, offended by each other, with our arms folded.

Let me provide just one example. Abortion. I consider myself a middle-of-the-road Democrat, because as my Dad used to say, "I don't make enough money to be a Republican." Honestly, I'm not too keen on the idea that abortion should be used as some kind of birth control method. The reason many states started to de-criminalize the practice in the 1970's was because adult and teen-aged women were dying in back alleys from poorly administered illegal abortions. Since I'm not a social conservative, my suggestions to hold down abortions would be education and contraception. Yet in almost every case, conservatives say none of those practices are acceptable. Well then, what do you wish to accomplish today? Fewer and more rare abortions, or keeping things the way they are?

Don't believe me, check out this article in The New Yorker

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/03/081103fa_fact_talbot?yrail

Thanks for your insightful comment. If you think being a thoughtful evangelical is a bit like taking a bath in a cement mixer, then riding through hell in a paper shirt, try being Roman Catholic and bucking the narrow-minded ecclesiastics who think that the only issue facing the world today is abortion. There is genocide in Darfour, and rape is an instrument of national policy. There is a wretched war in Iraq and Afghanistan in which hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians are dead or dying. There is an unparalleled disaster in Africa where AIDS and starvation will change the landscape of that wretched continent for decades. The list includes global warming, nuclear proliferation, and bellicose nations engaged in saber-rattling because they know that America is divided, and therefore weak. What simply amazes me is how we've lost our ability to talk to one another, and to be civil about our disagreements. The real historical legacy of the Bush regime will not be Bush himself; he's a nitwit who happens to be in the White House. The real opprobrium of history will fall on Darth Cheney for his diversion of a moral America into torture and mindless imprisonment, and upon Karl Rove, the architect of the politics of demonization and division. America needs to heal. We need to find anew our sense of unified national purpose. We need to find a way to set aside the single-issue style of religious McCarthyism, and recover what made us great in the first place: a nation where church and state are separated, and where we as the nation of the great melting-pot can find our national purpose again. I'm as sick of hearing about the Christian religious nut-case right "base" as I am of Catholic bishops who are so theologically narrow-minded as to be able to see through a Catholic keyhole with both eyes. We are a broad nation. Isn't it about time we acted like we are?

Reconciliation after this election between the candidate Obama & McCain is possible because they are politicians. However reconciliation in policies may not takes place due to a single party Government (congress, senate and president controlled by one party) if that happen. The main problem of Bush era was the control of both senate & congress by one single party for the first six years, wars & 9/11. The success of Cliton period was because of split Governments. If Democratic Party wins all branches of Government, it will move to the left creating movement of business to abroad, loss of jobs, lower economic growth, higher unemployment and policy crisis aboard.
Under that conditions, a reconciliation will not be possible.
“manixthoughts.blogspot.com”

Let me paraphrase: "I've done my part in vilifying those who disagree with me." But now that eight years under President Bush has made clear to everyone what a bankrupt approach that has been, and it looks like we might get our clocks cleaned in this election for doing our best to destroy the greatest principles that once defined this country.... "I want to do my part and put aside the religious issues while I play my part in solving the larger issues, whatever they might be."

This would have been an interesting epiphany to have had a few years ago. Now, it just looks self-serving.

And when the right wing was in power, where were these calls for reconciliation and non-partisanship? Or did the good Lord wait to reveal to you the virtue of non-partisanship until AFTER the right wing was in disrepute?

So, Mr. Harrison,

Where were you all those years when people who weren't "evangelical" were saying the right-wing so-called Christians were simply hate-mongering for votes, power, and money (think Limbaugh, et.al.)?

Is you recent "enlightenment" simply a matter of expedience when you see the shape the right has taken this country? or when the right at McCain's rally call for the murder of his opponent simply because of his race/politics?

It has always been difficult for me to believe that was Christ's teachings. Absolutes and Evangelicals. Sure. If that was the case, then the absolutes of Christ's teaching of "love thy neighbor", and "judge not. . ." would hold sway.

Instead, Christ's teachings have been corrupted to further those who want money and power--Dobson and his ilk included.

As one who has believed in Christ's teachings for all my thinking life, it has sickened me, this hypocrisy and and perversion of the Christian Faith. And then the major churches wonder why membership and attendance has declined. Duh.

Well done and succintly put. I think that the good Lord wants us to acknowledge our commonalities and acceppt our differences. Separation of church and state were separated from the begginning of our republic to keep us from being oppressed again even though that notion has always been an ideal that we are still working toward.

Amen

What drove me out of the republican party was the desire to legislate their twisted views against gays, by kicking gays out of the military, denying marrriage equality, preventing gay adoption, etc. If the republicans want me back, they should confine their bigotry to the pulpit, where they are free to emit their sunday poison, as long as it does not show up in our laws.

Nothing has done more to discredit religious faith in recent years than the self-righteous overconfidence with which our leaders have “listened to God” instead of listening to the knowledgeable secular advisors who have warned them, repeatedly, of the follies they were embarking on.

Defenders of religion are eager to point out that the motivation for this war was not religious, in spite of President Bush’s blunder in calling it a “crusade,” but they must admit that the administration’s faith in faith over faith in facts has probably been the principle cause of the moral calamity that now confront.

As far as we know there are no gods. We are as brainwashed in this country as are the Muslims in the middle east. It is time we woke up to the reality that we are alone on this planet, and gods were created by our ancient ancestors to explain that which they did not understand. It is time we put aside such childish nonsense.

Hi, Sparrow,

I just voted! I, my son, and his friend all cast our votes for Obama here in Georgia. It was a proud moment for me. First time in a long life that I got to be a part of history being made. Plus, the joy of seeing my son vote in his first presidential election. Life is good right now.

I don't know what rulebook Spidey follows, but it is NOT the one that Jesus taught.

Hey Tim- are you having fun yet? We should have warned you what would happen :-)

I love you arminius- thanks for posting the peacemakers quote. We did need a reminder (wasted on spidey of course, but anything intelligent or good is wasted on him.

I'm going to vote in a few moments- I am so psyched!! And I will say again, Tim- we need more like you. I don't know why you're being beat up on here. You took the first step to bridge a huge divide and I know it cost you big time. But theer has to be more like you. We stand together or we fall together. And to everyone who doesn't get that, the last 8 years tell the tale.

I don't have to agree with your beliefs but you don't have to agree with mine. Just so long as we can meet in the middle and work together. Anything less from either of us is a loss for all of us.

to those who think it is so cut and dried- after 9-11 the Southern Baptists came to NYC in droves. We used to call them the "yellow People" because of their tee shirts. Kinder, better, sweeter people I did not meet. They never proselytized- it was against their rules of disaster relief to not take advantage of the grieving. They came and cleaned apartments of toxic dust, cooked food, sorted supplies- I will never forget them. And when a really whacko nutjob told me those who died were burning in hell if they hadn't accepted Jesus before they died, it was Southern baptists who comforted me and reprimanded her. No matter how angry and upset I get with the religious right, I remember what these good people did when they came to NYC. (And the Salvation Army too).

Tim.
If you go on making sense like this, you may end up becoming agnostic or atheist, like I did.
After all...as far as we know there are no gods. The god we pray too is no more real than Apollo, Zeus or Zarathustra. All gods are made up...and you seem close to realizing this.
Take the next step Tim, and free yourself from ancient dogma, and be free to continue thinking for yourself.
Good luck.

spidermean2 wrote: "God is not at peace when He see his rules being messed around."

Well that explains the perfect political storm that is leading to a huge republican loss tonight.

If you did not believe in God before, you cannot ignore a higher power at work here. I mean, could circumstances have been more perfectly formulated against the republicans by chance? No, there is an unseen hand in all of this, in the huge debt, high gas prices, the financial crisis, an unending war, Sarah Palin. Only a power as almighty as God could have brought this together like a flood to drown the republicans.

Yes, this political climate was intelligently designed and the impending large republican loss is God's will. Beware those who think this is not God's ahnd and not good, for the end is not near and you will have to live through peaceful and bountiful times now that God is wiping away the theocratic right wing from American power and replacing it with those who believe in helping thy neighbor, in not killing, and in maintaining religion by separating it from the state.

Oh Spidy, just how long will you predict gloom and doom when it is already here? God is working to help his flock overcome what they brought onto themselves? Go to a polling station today and see God's hand in action.

Arminius, read the verses. They are not mine. What's wrong with your brain. You seem to have lost even common sense.

c ya later. Your stupidity is becoming unbearable.

Arminius, read the verses. They are not mine. What's wrong with your brain. You seem to have lost even common sense.

c ya later. Your stupidity is becoming unberable.

Wrong move America. The future is not that bright. The day of reckoning is soon to come.

Jezebel's rule of America will be a DISASTER.

God made the rules, and Jesus taught them in the Gospels. Spidey's rulebook is corrupt and false. Jesus taught love and ligh, but Spidey walks in darkness and hatred.

Pray for Spidey.

timjoebob wrote: "Wow! What a firestorm I've started! This is Tim Harrison... I live in central Virginia and I've been watching the posts here. Let me answer some of the concerns/questions/critiques:..."

Oh now really, have you read the comments in the On Faith section before? This is TAME! There is a reason your parents said to never discuss religion or politics at parties. We discuss both here and this is a party where anyone is invited.

But on a more serious note, I understand where you are coming from but you need to understand where the left in this country is coming from. They have not just lost power over the last 8 years, their predictions have come to pass. Their warnings went unheeded and when they happened it was all ok. And worse, they were deamonized, labeled as against God for opposing Bush policy. What Elizabeth Dole is doing is just a small example of what the left has had to face. The left has been told they are going to hell and Americans have been told to vote a certain way or they would go to hell.

When this administration broke the law it was ok with the right. When this administration outted a CIA agent it was ok. When this president broke the Geneva conventions and not just allowed torture but oversaw it, it was ok. Dirty tricks and underhandedness were not just allowed, they were encouraged by self described believers in God, seemingly thinking that the ends justified the means.

People on the left screamed that the Constitution was being violated but were labeled unpatriotic! Lawsuits were brought and most were won. Over time the people of this land began to realize just what this administration was doing and the evangelical hands behind it, and then its ideology actually started to affect the economy, bringing the Bush administration's policies into our homes and wallets. All of a sudden eliminating a woman's right to choose is not such a big issue with most voters.

If you want to have a reconciliation I think what is needed is for you and other evangelicals to at least say that you would swear an oath to uphold the Constitution. That would be a good start. Because right now many on the left seriously doubt whether an evangelical can agree with many parts of the Constitution. If you can, then dialog should be no problem on specific issues. If you cannot, then I think the wall is too high to expect anything but discord.

God made the rules. It's not mine. If you break the rules of God, you must pay for it.

It's that simple. I don't hate anybody. Im just saying "hey guys, you'll gonna pay for what you're doing".

Read this arminius and understand it : REad it over and over.

"Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, SEVERITY; but toward thee, GOODNESS, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF (killed). (Romans 11:22)

"See then that God is good but his rules are fixed: to those who were put away he was hard, but to you he has been good, on the condition that you keep in his mercy; if not, you will be cut off as they were."

"Notice therefore God's kindness and God's severity. On those who have fallen His severity has descended, but upon you His kindness has come, provided that you do not cease to respond to that kindness. Otherwise you will be cut off also."

I gave you 3 translations. If you find it hard to understand, ask your neighbors what it means.

c ya later

Right on, brother. The part that hit me the hardest was realizing that, yes, the more Christianity is made a ruling matter in the political game of this nation, the more divided we will continue to become.

Loving your neighbor means accepting him, being a friend, helping, forgiving, not judging.

There is no 'Big Cop' waiting. There is Big Love. God loves those who love - those who hate will be in trouble.

What will you say to God, Spidey, when He confronts you with the fact that you hate all His children? What will you say?

'Love your neighbor'?

Love your neighbor means teaching him not to fool around. There's a BIG COP after this life is over.

"God is not at peace when He see his rules being messed around."

God is not at peace when He knows that the teachings of His Son are not followed.

Seen this billboard?

"Remember when I said, 'Love your neighbor'? I meant that."
- God

Reconciliation will remain mute as long as when:

We go into the Muslim mosque and find a call to violence and oppression to women and infidels.

We go into the Jewish synagogue and find myths and more calls to violence via the trumpets of Jericho.

We go into the Catholic/Christian church and find blood and bodies and pretty, wingie thingies but no Virgin Mary.

We go into Hindu temples and find cows and the lower class cleaning up the dung.

We go to a pagan ritual (e.g. Haiti) and find black magic and voodoo dolls.

"Blessed are the peacemakers,"

God is not at peace when He see his rules being messed around.

I think that many of us can say this about Tim:

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

What a pity Spidey has never read the Beatitudes. It would shed some light in his darkness.

Like Eve in the garden, Tim is clueless to what he is doing.

"it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

Eve and Jezebel is the personification of the Democrats.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

See how the prophecy will UNRAVEL.

Thank you for your article and the courage it takes to write it. I have been deeply troubled during this election cycle to watch Christians bash one another in the name of God. What the far right has done to the teachings of Jesus is no different than the money changers at the temple.
Thank you for your attempt to be a peace maker here-- not just a peace lover, but a peace maker. It is the hate-mongering that turns people against Jesus and Christians in general, and the in-fighting makes it even worse. I voted for Obama, I am a lover of Jesus, and James Dobson does not speak for me. I pray for civility in our political system, in our country, and in our churches.

Ephesians 4:17-32
Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only what is useful for building up, as there is need, so that your words may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which you were marked with a seal for the day of redemption. Put away from you all bitterness and wrath and anger and wrangling and slander, together with all malice, and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ has forgiven you.

Clearly, as evidenced in the various religeous-based governments around the world, theocracy provides less freedom to the citizens than socialism. I do NOT include the marxist/soviet governments as socialist but as dictatorships. My observation is that the more extreme theocracies, Iran being the best example, are also more dictatorship than theocracy. I am heartened by Mr. Harrison's admission that evangelicals truely want to establish the USA as a theocracy. My impression from what I've read and heard from the evangelical spokesmen, Falwell, Dobson, etc., they would have a dictatorial theocracy. I am Christian, and God is indeed the King of my life. But I have willingly submitted my life to God, with no coercion. God's actions and miracles in my life and in the universe have proven God's reality to me. God is not a dictator, but instead is an enabler, a guide, a Father and Brother and Sister and Friend. God's Kingdom lies in the souls of mankind, not in a physical place, in a capitol city, in a human leadership. It so happens and has been proven in the last couple hundred years that God's Kingdom prospers in the presence of human politcal and economic freedom, as in the USA, as opposed to repressive political/ecomonic systems. So, Mr. Harrison, I suggest to you that you are not as "evangelical" as you say you are. You have begun to be freed from that particular kind of oppression, and have now tasted the true freedom of God's intended Kingdom!
May God continue to bless you and the USA!

Thanks, Tim, and I agree with you. We must all work together.

My son and I are off soon, here in Georgia, to wait in line and vote for Obama!

Wow! What a firestorm I've started! This is Tim Harrison... I live in central Virginia and I've been watching the posts here. Let me answer some of the concerns/questions/critiques:

1) I voted for Barack Obama. I have volunteered for his campaign for months. Have contributed to his campaign for months and have been writing this message for months in area publications and have spoken on NPR on this matter.

This has all come at a high cost to me personally. I say this not to make you sorry for me (because I'm not that stupid), but to let you know this is not some last-minute decision I've taken lightly. I've been an outcast at my church and have taken evangelical heat from a variety of sources. Even my marriage has suffered.

2) the rhetoric seems to continue despite the call for reconciliation. Reconciliation means to restore a friendship or to restore harmony. I don't expect to become buddy-buddy with those who disagree with my views, BUT I do expect us to be able to work together to solve the BIGGER issues that threaten out national security. On this thread (and several rabbit-trail threads here), we're bickering over the same religious-based issues.

3) Will we be able to sit down together, in the spirit of Barack Obama, and talk --- IN A CIVIL MANNER --- about our bigger problems? That is my big concern.

4) I accept all those who disagree with me and my views with open arms. I don't agree with some of their views, but that doesn't mean we can't roll up our sleeves together and get busy (and even enjoy each other's company).

Blessings to you all on this election day!

--- Tim

There are only two sexes. Some people want to make it three while others view it as an abnormality.

Is asking for NORMALCY a theocracy?

Tim, a self proclaimed evangelical, think it can be reconciled.

How? How? How? Does it mean we all have to agree that there are three?

Only a twisted mind can agree to this.

A vote for Obama is a vote for stupidity. If Obama wins, then this stupid country deserves a stupid leader.

The problem is God won't agree. And He always has the last say.

So hang on tight coz the shake-up would be tough.

Prepare yourselves as the wrath of God is soon to come.

"it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

You have missed the problem. Religion is not a goal, but a tool for the oppression of others in the hands of people like you. It comes back to what Diderot said: "We shall never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."

Spidey,

Thomas Baum said, on another blog, "As I have said and I repeat, God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, in other words He looks at the person, not the label."

God knows about the cancer of hate that consumes you, Spidey. What will you say to God?

Spidermean2: You are mistaken if you think I am subservient to your intolerant white god of fear and hatred.

Going to hell rather than spending eternity with the likes of you would be a better choice. You're already living your own hell of "gloom and doom" and want to spread it to others because misery loves company.

Thank you sir, for your honesty here. But the point that we are not a theocracy, but a democracy, is the vital one. Jefferson, Madison, and the other leaders were looking at a Europe with such infighting over religions and they attempted to make sure our Nation did not become embroiled in that type of warfare.
Again, I second your stand as a Christian who wants the best for our Country.

By the very fact that you believe "In the realm of Christian politics, evangelicals believe in absolutes. There is a right and a wrong. It's clearly defined in the Bible," and by the fact neochristians cherry-pick the Bible for their own social and political agendas, there can be no reconciliation.

You, sir, are an enemy to my freedom because the ultimate agenda of your ilk is a "Christian" theocracy. You are of no less threat to me than the Taliban.

Reconciliation requires trust.

I. Don't. Trust. You. Nor do I trust anyone whose faith is unshakeable. Doubt is the essence of faith.

Your timing, as noted by others, highlights my distrust of you and your ilk.

By your works you shall be known. As for your friend Dobson, I know him for his hateful, spiteful, divisive words. Healing the sick? Feeding the hungry? Not so much. Your defense of him and his organization leads me further to NOT TRUST YOU.

spidermean2
Chops2 "You represent the side that makes this country the laughing stock of the world."

Ok, let's test your intelligence. What are they laughing about, idiot?

That you think Sarah Palin is suitable to be Vice- President
That you believe Obama is more of an elitist than John McCain
That you dont mind adultery as long as the perpetrator is Republican
That you voted George W Bush TWICE
That you have a $10 trillion deficit and don't see the reasons why
That you think Obama is a secret Muslim
That you think Iraq was involved in 9/11 and had WMD.
That people like columnist Janet Porter think homosexual marriage is the greatest threat to America
Comments like "Praise God and pass the Ammo" and What would Jesus carry?
That so many of you think you are morally superior to the rest of us. Wealth does not equal morality

Tim, as an atheist I know that we would have little common ground regarding religion. However, as American citizens, we can definitely come together to solve problems. It's nice to see a self-professed evangelical espouse a truly "christian" attitude. Thank you.

Tim, I think you are very right. Events such as the Inquisition and witch-burning show us that when religion has too much power politically, it does not always use that power well. We have become a divided nation, and you are right that some of the media specifically tries to keep us bickering with each other and unable to see any common ground.

We've lost at least 30 years in which we might have used our wealth to improve our cars, upgrade our infrastructure, and work on alternative energy sources. Instead, too many politicians got elected by promising nothing except that they agreed with some of us. How easy. Promise small government and no one even expects you to fix anything. I hope you are right that we can come together.

Hey justillthen- I think many people are going to have a bit of soul searching to do after the election. If the Dems win as big as some re projecting, the republicans are going to ask themselves why. they have to- the formula for success Rove laid out 8 years ago didn't work this time- not by a long shot. (Elizabeth Dole found that out big time).

"If this free country in which we live is to stay free, then we must all have a say, and be able to say it the way we want. The name calling and mean spirit you refer to is indicative of the world we live and is not limited to the political right. (Just ask Sarah Pallin) Our country, indeed our world needs Jesus Christ. To be silent in the political world will lead to forced silence in our pulpits."

that is so not true- That's why we have a constitution, to insure no forced silences. The difference is the religious right has decided that it is the defining voice of America, and this election is about the rest of us standing up and saying, no you're not. Your religious rights are protected, but so are mine. At the moment I'm protecting them from you.

sparrow wrote " I am so sorry to break it to you but the reason we are trading partners with China is thanks to Nixon, who opened the way."

Nixon's objective was to isolate the Soviet Union at that time when the Soviet's relationship with China went sour.

You should read Clinton's "engagement policy" towards China so won't be clueless.

"the anti-choice"?

You people forget that we are all subordinates to God. We are only free to a certain degree.

In hell you can do whatever you want. Just wait for the time when God places you there, and then you can act out everything whatever pleases you.

And don't worry, doomsday is very near. It's the fastest way to go there so live out the licentious life so you'll not miss the trip.

sparrow4:
"I agree trust needs to be earned. I need to see the Tims of this country put their money where their mouths are and they need to stop the anti-choice, anti-gay, anti- everyone who is not us stuff and just accept that it is the constitution which defines the country, not a religion."

Hello sparrow. I wouldn't hold my breath for the Tims to stop that stuff. I expect that they will continue, because it is important to their beliefs to support what they believe in. That is appropriate. It is what we all do. What I did like is that Mr. Harrison was having a change of heart on the tactics that the right has used, the viciousness and hatefulness, arrogant moralizing ,(all my words), that is commonplace in pressing their agendas. Any move toward cooperation is good, even if we have differing agendas.
I noticed that he made no indication that his vote has changed. I would imagine that he will vote supporting his conservative ideology hoping that his candidates win office.
I would vote for change and pray that those that come into office can fashion healing and reconciliation and move toward health in government.
How appropriate if the Obamanation becomes who brings back moral standing to an America weakened by the practices of evangelical moralizing.
Who is the socialist? The most liberal senator in the western hemisphere or the evangelical movement that seeks to homogenize moral values across America? Hmmm...

Chops2 "You represent the side that makes this country the laughing stock of the world."

Ok, let's test your intelligence. What are they laughing about, idiot?

Tim Harrison, I am impressed. This is the last column I'd expect to read from a self-described evangelical. While we may disagree on many issues, I'm delighted that you want to work with others to fix our nation's problems and not have religion take over the government. I hope there are more of you coming down the line; the country needs it.

Look... I'm all for working together to solve this country's many problems. But you have to answer one thing first - do you consider non-Christians to have the same rights of citizenship that Christians do? Do you feel that non-Christians are good Americans?

Because as much as Fundamentalists want to believe that America is a "Christian nation", it isn't true. People of all faiths, and none, are American citizens, and have fought, bled, and died for this country. If you want to believe otherwise, that's your right. But the Constitution was set up to respect the rights of the minority in the face of "majority rule".

If we agree on that, I welcome the opportunity to work with you.

Tim,
I also am an Evangelical,Conservative, Fundamentalist (choose which ever term you like) Pastor. I understand your frustrations but must disagree agreeably, with your final summation. One's religious views or lack therof, shape our world view. Our world view then in turn shapes our political view. Rev. Sharpton is a prime example. No one cared that he was an ordained minister running for President because he was a liberal. His religious views, which were liberal as well, shaped his politcal views. I am glad he could run but Evangelicals have no such grace afforded them. Just ask Mike Huckabee. I disagree with the popular notion that our founding father's built this invisable wall of separation between religion and government. It is a phantom argument meant to repress free thought and expression. Your broad statement that Evangelicals want to control government is absurd. There are those on both sides of the religious isle which try to exercise control but a democracy, make that Republic, will always weed them out. We need a strong voice from the Evangelicals if the absoultes laid out in the Bible are indeed absolute. I am firmly in that camp, perhaps you're wavering. If this free country in which we live is to stay free, then we must all have a say, and be able to say it the way we want. The name calling and mean spirit you refer to is indicative of the world we live and is not limited to the political right. (Just ask Sarah Pallin) Our country, indeed our world needs Jesus Christ. To be silent in the political world will lead to forced silence in our pulpits.

Jim Lake

To Spiderman 2,
For someone that believes in Jesus so much why dont u start acting like him?

You spew hate and vitriol, that was not his message. You are nothing like him.

"What Obama have is an UNPROVEN BRAIN."

Its has you retard, if your gonna call someone stupid at least attempt to construct a gramatically correct sentence. Who has the unproven brain?

This is not a theocracy and if u want one, good luck I say, just look to your theocratic contempories (Iran, Afghanistan under the Taliban) and see what you are likely to become. Corrupt and ignorant fools waiting for the rapture that will never happen.

Obama represents the side of America that makes people wanna come here, the compassion, the diversity, the acceptance. You represent the side that makes this country the laughing stock of the world.

MARKEDWARD,
Thanks for calling me dishonest. I always appreciate that.

Obama was ranked 1st last year and Clinton was 16th. This was back in January when Clinton was supposed to be the nominee. Kerry and Edward weren't the most liberal and neither was Gore in any ranking I have seen. But they were high on the list.

I'm not sure why people are arguing on this. Again, these are opinions. Disagree if you want. It just seems pretty obvious that he is hard-and-fast liberal. It's hard to get much more liberal and that is very evident from his voting record and the people that he has been involved with.

I thought people wanted him liberal. If you don't like his liberal stance why don't you talk to him or vote for someone else. This is who he is. He is trying to get more center as most presidential candidates do but I don't buy it. He knows his roots and do to. He will be as liberal as his party allows him to be.

I understand that many things have been said about Obama but I don't even see what these "isults" have to do with anything. Most of these are political or religious comments. I don't know why you consider them insults at all for the most part. I thought it was OK to be Muslim or Atheist?

I definitely this his policies are going toward Socialism/Marxism. Spreading the wealth is the center of these ideas and I don't know how you can deny it. These aren't insults though. I'm sure there are good socialists, but I don't think they understand the consequences. I'm not against ideas but we need to explain how these work. There will be great consequences to the policies of the next president and I want people to be informed.

Can't anyone just understand that because I disagree with someone I don't hate them. Again, this is centeral to our Republic.

Paganplace, friend,

My hand and that of Sparrow's are always reached out to you.

My take on Spidey is now twofold: either he is the ultimate troll, posting things he knows will cause confustion, or else he is totally insane. Because of the crap he posts which is totally beyond reason, I, sadly, vote for madness. He needs help.

Since being "a good Christian" could reasonably be expected to have to do with serving God, I believe that God Who cannot lie, won't be holding it against anyone for not voting for folks whose message has been brought almost entirely with lies, false witness bearing, and, as well, the fellow who actually hired to work for him in his campaign the person who engineered his previous downfall by means of slander in secret. There's more'n 1 way to be God-like, so, yes, using your own discernment does sound like a good change to consider making.

paganplace- you know I and arminius will join hands with you! (er.....no spidey tho' Agreed?)

Just wanted to clarify- I agree trust needs to be earned. I need to see the Tims of this country put their money where their mouths are and they need to stop the anti-choice, anti-gay, anti- everyone who is not us stuff and just accept that it is the constitution which defines the country, not a religion.

Shout out to spidey- I am so sorry to break it to you but the reason we are trading partners with China is thanks to Nixon, who opened the way.

Obviously, some people need to be reconciled to *facts* before we really have a civil discourse in America.

"I will not weaponize space".

Yeah right. The Chinese just proved it can shoot down satellites in space. Good news coz Obama's aim is to let those satellites be vulnerable to attacks in case a war with China occurs.

Im not sure if that would render our overall defense strategy useless.

“unproven missile defense system” ?

Tell that to Israel which already have a missile defense system just recently.

Their tanks and armoured personnel carriers are now equipt with a system that can even intercept RPGs (rocket propelled grenades).

RPGs are the single most destructive weapon used by terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq.

What Obama have is an UNPROVEN BRAIN.

The prophecy is VERY ACCURATE for how else will this country burn except it be ruled by idiots. The Democrats are slashing the Defense Budget alloted for the Defense Shield Program.

Barack Obama said he supported shifting federal resources away from an “unproven missile defense system” to proven technologies.[25] “I will cut tens of billions of dollars in wasteful spending. I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems,” Obama said.

The savings he will get from slashing that budget will be sent to oil producing countries (like Venezuela and Iran)to buy oil because coal power plants and nuke plants will not be profitable under Obama's term.

Let the stupidity continue. Let them burn if that is what they wish for themselves.

It's a very bright future in the long term for the Republicans if the Dems win this next 2 elections.

8 years more and the whole of America will a Republican state for many years to come.

Anyway, obviously, 'reconciliation' has a way to go. Spidey says he saw something on TV and we'll all get nuked if we conserve energy and don't expect less than half a percent of present consumption to come save our economy and make us energy independent when, in fifteen years, something starts coming out of those pipes.

Myself, I'm not altogether against offshore drilling, but not so we can blow more of those long-chain molecules out our tailpipes and call it economic salvation.

Call it a hunch, but we might be needing some plastic for some things by then. .

And you call yourself an 'engineer,' Spidey. *sigh.*

It's on TV that Obama will tax coal plants steeply to make it sure that THEY GO BANKRUPT.

The Democrats will put this country towards energy insufficiency. How else will they power our energy plants except thru imported oil. So let the idiots rule over the idiotic land.

As a lifelong Christian, I too have been traveling a different road in the past few years. The harsh comments and judgements from the pulpits of "professional" preachers who claim the finest seats on the media panels, etc. have made me rethink my faith and my beliefs. Realizing that I no longer saw my faith as a public expression with hands raised, but in private and with emparrasment due to being labelled as part of this Christian Right movement.

Through prayer and study and quiet contemplation I have found myself understanding God in a different way. Not with shouts of damnation on all who do not toe the line of thought of these so-called leaders, but compassion for all of God's creation and for the realization that morality as they would have it can not be legislated, but teaching and nurturing the people of this land to help them care for themselves and to care for others, which is the example that Christ taught all of his followers and those that listened to his message.

The statement that "God should be on the throne in our nation" rings hallow. God should be on the throne of our hearts and in our lives. No where does Jesus teach us that God must be in charge of our country. He is in charge of we who believe in his mercy. Our country includes people of so many different beliefs and hues and we need to find ways to communicate successfully with one another. To barrage our neighbors with our God uses him as a battering ram, not as the creator and provider who is full of love and forgiveness.

I am praying that this election will make many think of the severe harshness that has been spread in the name of Christian Values, and begin to rethink these concepts in terms of the humane, heartfelt love and compassion of the Savior that we believe in.
Claudia Black

Hopefully the leaders of those churches that have been spewing messages filled with hate and fear will finally learn a little humility when their parishioners witness Obama leading this country with true Christian charity and compassion in contradiction to their pastors' frightening and hate-filled prophesies of evil and doom.

Hope. Courage. Compassion.
VOTE for THE CHANGE WE NEED: Obama '08

Spidey, Spidey, Spidey. It's so good of you to remember to shovel nonsense, backed by no facts and viewing the future through those mythical, apocalyptic eyes of yours.

It will be good to see Obama elected and to watch how the world becomes more tolerant, more open to new ideas and less accepting of the kinds of mythical nonsense that you spew forth with as much factual evidence as Zeus and Thor.

Go to bed tonight with the knowledge that your fictitious world is nearing an end.

Now for a change, I'm going to predict the future. Obama will win with over 300 electoral votes, democrats gaining 7 seats in the Senate and 25 seats in the house. And to think, I don't even have your Spidey sense :-)

Anyone noticed that it's the possibility *of* a circle of hands that seems to bring certain conservative trolls out of the woodwork? :)

"Obama still think that nuke power is dangerous and offshore drilling and clean coal are harmful to environment."

Obama's *for* clean coal. Mining it *is* still harmful to the environment, and the tech still isn't implemented by Big Energy, these many years, under 'voluntary regulation,' but it could be a necessary bridge.

Opening more offshore drilling to Big Oil... if they were even drilling what they *had* the rights to fully, cannot do more than add less than half a percentage point of domestic production to *today's* fossil fuel consumption ...when the production from such starts in fifteen years. It won't reduce oil prices.

Bush's friends in Saudi Arabia and the oil industry can mysteriously ramp up supply after nearly tanking the economy by making fuel unaffordable, even in *summer,* ...but that won't last past the election.

And you're lying, Spidey, when you said Obama's against 'clean coal.' He supports it.

" As soon as Obama wins, OIL PRICE WOULD RISE UP AGAIN."

As soon as the election's over, the price of oil *will* rise again, ...the depression of those prices is only an artifact of the credit crash Bush brought us to, anyway.

Doesn't matter if you're selling *gold,* Spidey, the price goes *down* if no one can buy.

A vote for Obama is a vote for toasting the Democratic states in the U.S. in case a nuclear war ensues.

Barack Obama said he supported shifting federal resources away from an “unproven missile defense system” to proven technologies.[25] “I will cut tens of billions of dollars in wasteful spending. I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems,” Obama said.

The stupidity and idiocy continues.

Who will take my hand? Whatever comes?

There can be only reconciliation if the IGNORANCE is taken out of the picture. The problem is the Democrats is a party of IGNORANCE and the WORSE part is they are oblivious about it.

HAPPY IDIOTS DAY !!

Sometimes, you have to let idiots decide for themselves so they would LEARN. Instead of preventing them to play with fire, let them play with it. If the idiots want Obama, give it to them.

Democrats had placed us into this mortgage mess which then put us into economic tailspin : http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081020/ap_on_bi_ge/the_influence_game_housing

Obama is against McCain's plan of buying those foreclosed houses and restructure its payment so the homeowners could afford it. These greedy banks are charging as HIGH AS 14% INTEREST from their borrowers. WHY DO BANKERS LOVE OBAMA? THAT IS THE QUESTION.

Democrats are very soft on pouncing on future TROUBLE SPOTS like it did with the Taliban in Afghanistan and pre-911 terrorist attacks until they were successful in 911. That attack pushed us into this war.

Obama plans to get tough with Columbia which is a U.S counter balance against RISING SOCIALISM in South America spearheaded by Hugo Chavez of Venezuela. His plan is to get tough with an ally and be soft on leftist Chavez. He even offered to negotiate with him WITHOUT preconditions. GREAT IDEA if you're an idiot.

Obama is not yet president but he is already being tough on another ally, Pakistan.

Democrats enriched communist China by having unfettered trade with them despite the fact that they are still COMMUNISTS and dangerous and oppressive to religion. China is much more dangerous today than it ever was. Thanks to Democrats' FORESIGHT. This too will be a problem of the next president. Im glad the Dems are winning coz they would handle this coming problem. They started it, let them solve it.

Obama has protectionist tendencies so it is bound to create trouble with our now largest trading "partner", China.

Democrats placed us into an OIL CRISIS because of their "green" laws. That contributed much to our economic downturn.

Obama still think that nuke power is dangerous and offshore drilling and clean coal are harmful to environment. As soon as Obama wins, OIL PRICE WOULD RISE UP AGAIN.

Democrats are very tough on trade to the extreme. The world would truly miss the gentleness of the Republicans on this area. Oftentimes you won't give idiots what they wish coz it would spell more trouble. The world want a Democrat so give them the Democrats. When these people start complaining, I want you to remember that they CHOSE this. Stupidity, BIG TIME.

Democrats will fast tract abortion, gay marriage rights and everything liberal. God will not help us when these coming troubles pour at us.

If Bush was "hellish", see what real hell is once the Dems take over.

HAPPY IDIOTS DAY!!

Does make me wonder, actually, if the conservative Christians among us here, despite having pushed things to the wall and been shown to have in fact been wrong about all the things they called us Commies for... will still extend such hands if the Electoral College and districts mysteriously-short of ballots get monkeyed into another half a percent 'mandate' for extreme right-wing moralism...

Will they commit to such 'reconciliation' in *that* eventuality?

Or are they just trying to scare people out of voting for 'the wimpy librul' for fear of the 'vengeance' of those that have gone all this time *not* exacting the 'vengeance' they fear, if someone else were in a position to treat *them* as they have treated others?

Seems some terror of 'victims' was voiced, a bit back there.

Should have thought of that earlier, when you *had' 'Teh Pow3R' conseratives, but no, this isn't about 'Payback.'

It's about we all get our *country* back.

Still not seeing any joined hands.

" Arminius
"Tim Harrison has reached out a hand to us all. We should take it. That is the beginning of understanding and tolerance. We can debate later."

Well, my friend, I called for a circle of hands earlier, but apparently it was necessary to debate about the nonexistence of some scary 'liberal retribution,'

We can still join hands, but it seems the debate/negotiation isn't done just yet. :)

Tim Harrison has reached out a hand to us all. We should take it. That is the beginning of understanding and tolerance. We can debate later.

I'll just let you catch up on the below, Just. :)

Paganplace:

:-)

"It's the 'victims' fault, *they're* at fault for what I do!'"

And I did not get that I was in Denial!!!

For clarity, I am not supporting abusers to blame victims for their need to cause pain...
I am, however, suggesting that BOTH sides are responsible for reconciliation to occur. We must forgive ourselves first, and by that release can extend forgiveness to the other. "Victimization" is not remove all responsibility from us somehow, as if we had no involvement. It is easier to see here in the political metaphor. Liberals did not get governance usurped from them by some abuser! Liberals actively participated in that movement by public disaffection of their actions and policies.
We are in trouble if we look to get it our way or the highway now if we come into greater power. That would just extend the conflict.

"Absolve is an interesting word and I didn't address the nuance."

Well, Gods willing and Diebold unable to prevent it, yes, you may have to live with some 'nuance.'

Now we're 'bargaining.' :)

But, see, we're a little closer to 'reconciled' already. :)

(response in two parts, since they clipped post length a *leetle* too much.* First part at the top.)

justillthen

"Thanks Pagan
I just read your last posts."

Better late than never, I suppose. :)

"I am hungry for change, and I am hopeful that change is coming. I am uneasy yet, and do not trust it yet."

America just lately is not a house where trust comes easy, in some respects. Deflecting that lack of trust, (we must in fact *work* at restoring that trust, where due) onto the *familiar* because we have been, to again extend the metaphor, been battered into fearing the possibilities of the outside world more than the more familiar ways of coping with irrational, and vehement abusers... Well, that's a form of 'Stockholm Syndrome.'

You get an idea it's 'safer' to go along, you start seeing *change* or even *freedom* as a *threat.*

Stockholm Syndrome isn't 'reconciliation.'

Neither is 'absolution' in an interpersonal sense. That's just a reset of the same patterns after the 'cops' come.

" And I do not know what degree of "change" is realistically possible by a new administration."

Any degree.

This election *opens a door.* We still have to walk through it and *do* things.

" I am hopeful that a democratic leadership will bring something good back to Washington, and I believe Obama is the kind of man that has the ability to govern evenly and compassionately."

And competently. That's all America ever asked. Yes, we *can* have this.

The alternative is more of the same of people screwing up government to keep getting elected on the idea 'Government doesn't work,'

And that's how we got so backwards.

" But it does require something far greater than any one man or administration."

Yep.

"What happens with the disenfranchised evangelicals who have had huge hope of forming what THEY considered to be good? What happens with the liberal coalition that get their hands back on the steering wheel? Do the "abused" look for some payback?"

That seems to be what you fear.

Conservative Christians, like many other 'abusive' types *really seem to think the world works that way.*

Yeah. By the standards of what *they* did,* hey got 'payback' *coming.*

By *their* standards.

Not ours.

Our standards are different. Not *born yesterday,* but different.

(pt 2)

I guess they'll just have to 'trust' us, those they claimed all these years couldn't be 'trusted' with our own fates and beliefs and moral understandings and choices and birthrights.

Frankly, that'd be 'payback' enough for me.

I don't want to live in your unilaterally-declared 'culture war.'

I want to live in *our America.*

Doesn't mean I'm an *idiot* about it, but all of you people were always welcome in *my* world.

Not my fault I wasn't welcome in *yours.*

" Do more of Mr. Harrisons conservative coalition have similar self reflection, and reach their hands across the aisle?"

That's up to them, and their honesty, isn't it.

They don't get to demand absolution, though.

They just get to be like the 'little people' they 'damned.'

" Do Democrats, rejected over 8 years of getting Bushed, look for some sweet vengence and shut out Republicans?"

Have you been *listening?*

That's not what Obama's saying.

That's what the Swiftboaters try to make you fear.

Being treated like you have treated others so long.

If I thought that was all there was to America, I would not still be here. I assure you.

"Can reconciliation happen?"

Well, if we can return to our regularly-scheduled *trying,* maybe we'll see.

Paganplace:
Thanks. I believe that I was responding to what you were saying to Sparrow in post : November 3, 2008 2:42 PM, before I came on board. "With those who have abused you, the onus is not on you to 'absolve' them so the process can start again."
Absolve is an interesting word and I didn't address the nuance. Yet my response overall is the same. The 'onus' is on each of us to resolve to forgive so that healing can take place. Without participation of both sides then healing does not occur socially or culturally, as it is a state of relationship.

I like something you said in a previous post: "Too often, cloaking bad policies and bad precedents in moral absolutism, when often the means and mechanisms of government just aren't *made* for absolutes in the first place."

WILDWEST1:

Shouldn't there be pre-conditions to a meeting with your enemy., Idiot.

Nice little lick of sarcasm. Our answer I think was no, meeting your enemy was a good thing without making it harder.

kert1 , National Journal is a far right conservative organization that every 4 years labels whomever the Democrats nominate as 'the most liberal'. In 2004 they said Kerry and Edwards were the most Liberal members of the Senate. I think they said the same of Gore in 2000. I think you know this and you are a bit dishonest.

you write 'kert1 :
Can someone explain this villifying to me? I'm hearing a lot of this but I see no examples'

Your side has called Obama a Marxist, Communist, Socialist, Muslim, Arab, Half-Frican, athiest, terrorist....need I go on? How many of these catch phrases have you used?

MY4GIRLS :
For me, one of the most interesting analogies of the Tower of Babel story is that G-d scattered man to the corners of the world with different Faiths, as well as different languages.

Our challenge is the same- overcome our differences and find a way to get along. Learn. Thrive. Take care of each other. Try to "Get It". The pursuit of "It" can bring out our best, and the best of others, and from that heal a broken world.

Nice post, MY4...

Jesus said "I am the way," not "I am the ONLY way!"

...Crossed posts again. Hold the phone a sec, Justtill. :)

Not that this isn't *textbook* abuser talk in that (previously metaphorical) sense of reconciling with those who've abused us:

"Keep the pain alive. In other words, the 'victim',by virtue of having been 'abused', is not required to reconcile. And so the rift continues as the victim looks for the opportunity to abuse because they have not forgiven and reconciled."

*You* leapt right in to say that to those of us working with the notion of actually, for real, *healing* the rifts divisive Evangelical politics have brought upon innocents in our society.'

Back to the original subtopic, I suspect you're still in the 'Denial' phase, Justtill.

'It's the 'victims' fault, *they're* at fault for what I do!'

Yah, yah.

We got a country to fix.

Thanks Pagan
I just read your last posts.
I am hungry for change, and I am hopeful that change is coming. I am uneasy yet, and do not trust it yet. And I do not know what degree of "change" is realistically possible by a new administration. I am hopeful that a democratic leadership will bring something good back to Washington, and I believe Obama is the kind of man that has the ability to govern evenly and compassionately. But it does require something far greater than any one man or administration. What happens with the disenfranchised evangelicals who have had huge hope of forming what THEY considered to be good? What happens with the liberal coalition that get their hands back on the steering wheel? Do the "abused" look for some payback? Do more of Mr. Harrisons conservative coalition have similar self reflection, and reach their hands across the aisle? Do Democrats, rejected over 8 years of getting Bushed, look for some sweet vengence and shut out Republicans? Can reconciliation happen?

"Please help me to understand how it is that Mr. Harrison is demanding that we forgive him, is demanding we reconcile with him, or even that he is or continues to be the "abuser" because of his beliefs."

Actually, that was *you* laying on with the 'victim' blaming when I was speaking to something Sparrow said.

Paganplace:

Please help me to understand how it is that Mr. Harrison is demanding that we forgive him, is demanding we reconcile with him, or even that he is or continues to be the "abuser" because of his beliefs. I did not read that in the article and would love for you to show me these demands. What I read was more of an expose' on conservative ethics in pursuit of their political and religious beliefs. I did not hear him blame me, a liberal in most issues, for his past stance. Any criticism that I heard was directed at his own right leaning coalition. He fired away at the Hannitys and the Limbaughs. I did not hear him shoot at you.
He said: "This is all a new thought for me. I'm still not totally comfortable with it yet. However, I know that I've been part of the problem. I've done my part in vilifying those who disagree with me. But things must change, both in my family, my workplace, and in my nation."

You said that the 'abused' is not required to reconcile.
I disagree, if reconciliation is to occur. It is contrary to what reconciliation is that one side forgive and the other withhold forgiveness.
Again, your way assures continued conflict.
You may be too angry to be open to find peace with your enemy, and I understand that altogether. But conflict continues until both sides are actively seeking peace.

Again, please show me haw it is that Mr. Harrison is demanding anything from you.

Still, Justtill, did you actually *read* that bit below?

For me, one of the most interesting analogies of the Tower of Babel story is that G-d scattered man to the corners of the world with different Faiths, as well as different languages.

Our challenge is the same- overcome our differences and find a way to get along. Learn. Thrive. Take care of each other. Try to "Get It". The pursuit of "It" can bring out our best, and the best of others, and from that heal a broken world.

In my own travels I have encountered a many souls who practice a variety of faiths. Regardless of what these faiths are called, it is the Actions, not words, of the individuals that defined if they "Get It".

G-d scattered us on many paths. There are many roads to our Return.

Mr. Harrison, I applaud your statements and the courage it takes to put yourself out there. What is of interest to me is what you do next, not what you say. I hope that you can find a path alongside the woman who chose, the man who is gay, the teacher of evolution.

You speak of absolutes, I pray that we all can discover the only absolute is the uniqueness of us all, and that the path to "It" comes from as many directions. G-d started it, long ago at Babel.

I hope to see you- I hope to see us all- on that journey.

Eh, Justtill, that's forgiveable.

If I don't have to worry about Mccain and Palin somehow having stolen the election tomorrow, you just haven't seen how forgiving the 'evil liberals' are willing to be, with a show of some bona fides.

Guarded as we may be about it. Sorry, but that's part of the path to reconciliation. :)

CCNL :

Reconciliation will remain mute as long as when: ...

Reconciliation will remain 'mute' as long as YOU turn your back on it.
You can forgive, and be reconciled, with ALL in your life right now. It has nothing to do with what is found in temples around the world. Like christian belief in the teachings of Jesus it is inside US that forgiveness is found, and Love is realized. It is a personal thing, not something given to you. YOU need to make it be.

Now I sound like a preacher.
Forgive me.

"disagree, conceptually at least. Your positions suggest that the 'victim' has the right by being the 'abused' to hold onto victimization."

Is the alternative to pretend wrong wasn't done, and we should allow people who we know have hurt us to pretend it's on *us* to somehow pretend that the abusive pattern was somehow our fault?

"To distrust, hold different boundries, justify holding hatred perhaps, scorn, keep the grudge, remember the wrongs done and remind them of it by withholding kindnesses... Keep the pain alive."

No, it's not 'victims' 'keeping the pain alive' by not letting one Evangelical say, 'I've changed, really,' ....so others can say, 'You're so unforgiving of the continued abuse.'

Trust takes work after a situation like this.

Also not something the 'abuser' can just 'demand,' particularly for those who continue to abuse.

And 'blame the victims,' to extend the metaphor.

" In other words, the 'victim',by virtue of having been 'abused', is not required to reconcile."

No, not required.

That's the point. It's not something abusive people can *demand.* Not even in the name of Gods.

You don't get to require.

Doesn't mean reconciliation can't happen and it's the rest of the world's fault if it's not granted cause *one* Christian says he's sorry and intends to do the right thing.

" And so the rift continues as the victim looks for the opportunity to abuse because they have not forgiven and reconciled."

Yeah, we evil victims. How dare we.

"Your way assures continued conflict."

I'm sorry, it seems we crossed posts. See below.

to kert1,

And exactly how does a blood sacrifice (if it happened which is highly doubtful) reconcile me with God? How exactly does killing one person make amends for another?

If one of my 3 sons were caught with drugs and arrested, would another innocent son be able to turn himself in and be forgiven from the law? As long as someone "pays the price" it doesn't matter who, is that the deal?

Explain to me how killing Jesus cleanses anyone of sin? Explain how this is any different from the Incas sacrificing a virgin in order to appease one or more of their gods? Or even the ancient Hebrews who sacrificed new born babies in order to appease their God of war and protect their country. How does this work?

And you never answered any of my questions....what's moral about God killing presumably thousands of innocent people because of the sins of one (Pharaoh). What's good about that?

*looking around at what looks like a thread likely to develop into a total furball.*

*looking around.* Hey, Thomas, and some others, think we can join some hands here and see about some of this reconciliation thing before it turns into a brawl? We might be needing the practice. :)

:)

Paganplace:

"With those who have abused you, the onus is not on you to 'absolve' them so the process can start again. What they have done has effects, and there's a difference between 'reconciling' and 'absolving...

'Demanding absolution is another way of claiming they have power over you.

Reconciling is different.

They can still be humans, still be Americans, just not as if nothing had ever happened."

I disagree, conceptually at least. Your positions suggest that the 'victim' has the right by being the 'abused' to hold onto victimization. To distrust, hold different boundries, justify holding hatred perhaps, scorn, keep the grudge, remember the wrongs done and remind them of it by withholding kindnesses... Keep the pain alive. In other words, the 'victim',by virtue of having been 'abused', is not required to reconcile. And so the rift continues as the victim looks for the opportunity to abuse because they have not forgiven and reconciled.
Your way assures continued conflict.

I suggest that reconciliation is not primarily about anyone but ourselves, and that we must first and foremost forgive ourselves for what we have done and what has been done to us, and then forgiveness of the other is easier.
And a reconciled world emerges.

I agree with sparrow4. We who disagree with the religious right, need not pile on just to prove our "rightness". Sure, the world has been made a worse place because the Bush's of the world seek to impose their moral views on our country. But when one calls for a change and admits maybe his way wasn't necessarily the best -- that's another indication that maybe America has decided on a new path. And that's good.

I'm looking forward, despite Obama's Christian pronouncements, to a time when we can get back to evaluating what's best for the country, divorced from what a 2,000+ year old book of myths has to say.

This was a good article Tim and for this and other signs, I remain hopeful.

Go Obama!

TWMATTHEWS,
I'm glad you asked about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm always glad to share.

We all need Jesus because we all fall short. Adam was the first man that sinned but he simply showed the sinfullness of man. We all need Jesus because we all have sinned and fall very short of his perfect standard. Adam was just the first example. Jesus died for all our sin, even Adams.

I assume from your statement that you have not accepted this forgiveness, but I assure you that you can at anytime. God is willing. I assume you understand that we all feel a need to be reconciled to God. Jesus has made that way. Hopefully this makes sense.

As for things we don't understand, their are many. The plagues in Egypt did hurt many. We can understand that bad leadership will hurt many. We know God is just and any Egyptions could have been saved as well. Remember it was obedience that saved Jews from the Passover, not being Jewish. I'm sure some Jews died and some Egyptions were saved. God's judgement is just.

Abraham's sacrifice was between him and God. It is not something we are asked to do today. It actually forshadows Christ's death. But God son was killed, not ours. I think it is best viewed as God's provision for us. It should be our lives that were taken but instead it was Christ's. What an amazing thought.

I think it is good to struggle with hard concepts. Just remember who God is.

How fitting for an extremist christian ideologue to now want reconciliation with the same American society they deemed as their evil enemy.

We the people covet the freedom of the American democracy and now that Americans are disgusted with extremist christian culture war and fighting back against extremist values.

Americans should exercise tolerance and accept your extremist ideology as you refused to accept your neighbors rights. Extremist christians created the divide by willfully polarizing neighbors, communities and States, so now you just want, say sorry we didn't mean it lets us back into American society.

Shouldn't there be pre-conditions to a meeting with your enemy., Idiot.

fr the article:

>...Therefore, faith-based groups like Focus on the Family (a non-profit which does an incredible amount of good), as well as other groups, have dictated how a "good Christian" should vote...

fof is NOT a Christian group; their "leader", "dr" dobson, is virulently anti-gay. See the incredible documentary "For The Bible Tells Me So" about how dobson treated a family who has a gay son. They simply wanted to give him a letter, and dobson didn't even have the manners to step outside his fortress to meet with them. Instead, he had them ARRESTED for the "crime" of setting foot on his holy ground property.

" CCNL "

"Reconciliation will remain mute as long as when:"

(among other hobgoblins Concerned Christian claims to 'find.' )

"We go to a pagan ritual and find black magic and voodoo dolls"

You have done none of these things, you just *claim* you did to back conservative positions and fearmongering.

You have 'found' *nothing,* 'Concerned Christian. You have *invented* it.

And demanded we must have 'war' until you stop 'finding' what you *made up* in the first place.

sunnie2 says, "You have aligned your self with society that chooses to ignore moral values or say that they are outdated."

I beg your pardon? Are you trying to say that anyone with different moral values than yours ignores moral values? You've got to be kidding right?

You think that evangelicals have a lock on moral values. I'll put the value system that I've raised my 3 sons under against yours anytime. And anyone who follows the value system described by the bible would be thrown in jail in America today.

If there is a God -- and it's very doubtful -- those rules described in the bible are both unjust and inhumane. It's not that we don't like them, if you followed them, you'd be thrown in jail (and deservedly so).

Go ahead, tell me what more values you derived when God (supposedly) killed all of Egypt's first born because of the actions of Pharaoh.

Or tell me why there was a need for Jesus in the first place.....was it because of what Adam did thousands of years earlier? Under God's justice, every generation is responsible for the sins of prior generations.....what about that do you find moral?

And then there's the story of Lott and his wife who had the audacity to look back and was turned to stone.....What moral value should we derive from that?

Or how about Abraham who was about ready to kill his son as a blood sacrifice. What's the moral value there -- kill anybody, anytime so long as it's from the voices that only you can hear....

Great entry by Mr. Harrison. It is a sorely needed and missing message in the polarized divide that separates most in this election. His conclusions only seem so obvious to me, but it is of course easier to see and critique others and not nearly so easy or comfortable to see ourselves and recognize our weaknesses or failings. I applaud the courage and clarity that you presented your position and your suggestions, Mr. Harrison. And I appreciate hearing your honesty in critiquing tendencies of your evangelical and otherwise rightleaning compatriots. Thank you.

You have presented your self evaluation here honestly and graciously. It would serve those here who oppose your conservative views to receive you with honesty and graciousness as well. Reconciliation works when two hands meet, and that is what your essay is driving at. Noone is right or good, the other being by opposing, wrong and bad. The left is full of fallacy and hypocricy that needs soul searching. Who thinks that it is only the Republicans that need soul searching? The arrogant one, the elitist that thinks that only they are in the 'right'.
It is the same story. We do need to come together to move ourselves as a people forward. Republicans have just been the ones that have been in more of a position of power over these years, and as Democrats before, have made some serious blunders. While dissing their opponents in the process. The Republicans have been especially good at BIG blunders. Specialists.
The self righteousness of belief, on either side of the divide, is the sickness, not the belief itself. There is never one true answer to a problem, and never only one way to address an issue. One of the most revealing lines in Mr. Harrisons post is this: "In the realm of Christian politics, evangelicals believe in absolutes. There is a right and a wrong." It is obvious, but it still sheds light. I think that it is true not just in Christian politics, but across the board. It is a dynamic that has fueled the passionate drive seen in right wing politics and the current administration. We went from hearing "I am a uniter", (which he was in Texas), to watching the divider administration, because that was in fact the more honest truth.
This stubbornly arrogant attitude is evidenced in the liberal rantings of many on these forums, as well as in the rhetoric of some liberal politicians. It is not a virtue held by right leaners alone! When a hand is offered it serves us all to reach out to meet it. It is a fundamental concept of those of us that are liberal leaning, that we are more peacemakers, not warmakers. That requires the willingness to forgive, in every moment. Otherwise we risk exposing ourselves as warmakers is sheeps clothing.
I encourage us all to contemplate this essay, and these concepts in us all.
Be we left turning or right turning wingnuts.

Mr. Harrison, there is a good quote by MLK in which he states that "doing the right thing" goes beyond policitics and lots of other things which are at the base of man's ego. A wise Arab told me that man's ego is the part of man not of God.

I am a weak man when it comes to faith. I have experienced a lack of faith to the worst degree. I believe that, by the Grace of God, I am still sucking air today. Through it all though, I have never stopped trusting God. Remember that saying on the back of a dollar bill, "In God we trust" ?

From time to time, I have question God's Will. I have asked directly, "God, do you know what you are doing ?". And then someone like the Pope comes along and tells me these are the mysteries of God's Love. So as a mere mortal, how could I know the grand scheme of things right now or things to come ?

For years, I have been shouting that some of our leaders are fear based and not faith based. I witnessed a lack of courage and a lack of vision. One of my concerns is shared with you, a media which attempts to fear a populus into submission. There are too many examples in evidence, not just politics, dirty suitcase bombs and Avian Flu virus come to mind.

A common goal would be to defeat terrorism. Terrorism is an ideology and so bullets and bombs are probably ineffective putting out the fire at its root cause. Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) is one option for both parties. Isrealis have learned not to live their lives in fear, to pursue happiness through Hope and Love. I myself have a homeland, imagine what it would feel like not to have a country. Has the world grown too small not to accomadate all of its inhabitants, I think not.

Lastly, in America, we have individual rights of Freedom. See, I don't have to be a true blue democrat supporting all democratic candidates. And same goes for republicans too, we do have choices. Mainly, I believe that the Father gives us free will, an inalienable right. Too many times in my lifetime I have witnessed that each person does have their own path to follow, ask any parent raising a teenager.

DMZ1,
Well if you don't like the sources you are welcome to supply your own. Something you haven't done yet. I can also tell by other publications and his voting record. The most obvious is voting 3 times against a law that would prohibit infantacide in the state Senate.

Call it what you want but it is obviously my opinion based on the information I have. You can believe or not.

As for vilification, I'm sure people can tell who is being vilified here. I have a clear concience that I am just trying to present things as I understand them. Ultimately God is my just and I know I am forgiven and I don't feel any guilt over things I have said. I hope you believe and feel the same way.

If you want more information, you'll have to look for yourself. I don't think this conversation is going anywhere and I don't waste my time with meaningless debates.

May God Bless.

It requires BOTH SIDES to put down the hatchet. That's why reconciliation will be so difficult (albeit not impossible) to achieve. For every Limbaugh there is an Olbermann. For every Oprah there is a Charlton Heston. The 20% most extreme control 80% of the discussion. Meanwhile, the average Christian or average Agnostic is caught in the middle of the War Of The Idealogues and we can't get a word in edgewise. Unfortunately, this has been going on for 300 years. Someplace between John Hancock and Lord Cornwallis were millions of people who really just wanted to live their lives in peace.

Reconciliation will remain mute as long as when:

We go into the Muslim mosque and find a call to violence and oppression to women and infidels.

We go into the Jewish synagogue and find myths and more calls to violence via the trumpets of Jericho.

We go into the Catholic/Christian church and find blood and bodies and pretty, wingie thingies but no Virgin Mary.

We go into Hindu temples and find cows and the lower class cleaning up the dung.

We go to a pagan ritual and find black magic and voodoo dolls.

TIM HARRISON

God did not become One of Us to set up a theocracy on earth, His becoming One of Us is part of His Plan for ALL to be with Him in His Kingsom.

Even tho in the past and in the present people have tried to force their beliefs on others, Jesus, God-Incarnate, forced Himself on no one and He did not ask His followers to do any such thing either.

I believe that the founding fathers of this country were Divinely Inspired in their recognition that there should be seperation of church and state plus they had the history of Europe and early America to draw upon.

Religious freedom is just that, one can believe or not believe whatever one wishes but they do not have the right to force themself or their belief or non-belief on anyone else.

Coersion is not belief and for that matter the True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

In other words, God looks at the person not at whatever label someone places upon oneself.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

(My apologies for strange editing in my last post, my browser has a glitch I need to fix.)

"It's not that I am foolish enough to believe that they will change overnight- if anything Mr. Harrison's post indicates that they are coming to a different realization of what constitutes self interest. Maybe they are seeing the full anger of voters against their agenda and realizing they won't get all those positions of power they were dreaming of."

Well, Sparrow, you don't sit around hoping for an abuser to change. It doesn't undo the abuse, or mean you're supposed to pretend they're all right now and should be put in a position to repeat the cycle.

With those who have abused you, the onus is not on you to 'absolve' them so the process can start again. What they have done has effects, and there's a difference between 'reconciling' and 'absolving.'

Demanding absolution is another way of claiming they have power over you. All of a sudden they claim that it's something you need to do to 'fix' or 'change' them, and it's your fault if re-starting the cycle doesn't mean they're 'OK.

Can't do it that way.

Reconciling is different. It establishes a new relationship. One where boundaries are different boundaries are set.

They can still be humans, still be Americans, just not as if nothing had ever happened.

Kert1:

You said repeatedly that Obama was the most far-left Democratic candidate EVER. That is demonstrably fals, and it is a known lie. Repeating a known lie for political purposes is vilification. I don't see how you can claim that it isn't.

Don't ever try to have a civil conversation and then try to use the National Journal as a source. That is one of the most completely fact-free publications in America.

Anyone who seekd to deny equality under the law to American citizens (yes, I mean gay marriage among other things) is an un-American, anti-American extremist. You don't believe in the core values of our country.

You also support wars of aggression (Iraq), torture, secret prisons, and warrantless surveillance of Americans even though the 4th Amendment clearly says that is unconstitutional.

You are an expremist by any objective standard.

Prove me wrong.

This is a very encouraging post, and I must take Mr. Harrison as true to his words of reconciliation. This would be a very big step in the right direction for evangelicals if this sentiment were to become more widespread. Progress usually happens in increments, and this statement affirms the wisdom that the separation of church and state is good for both church and state.
My suggestion on where to go next: Lose the creationism.

Many thanks for your courageous comments. For the last 40 years, the alliance between evangelical Christianity and right wing Republican politics in this country has been a secret sorrow to many in the Church. Religion fused with politics has created a culture that holds certain social and moral ideas are God's values, not human constructs (no discussion permitted), that God desires us to support politicians who proclaim these ideas, and that disagreement with this agenda is never honest, it is always the product of ignorance, conspiracy, or evil intent. This is based on broadly accepted but nonetheless highly debatable readings of scripture, from which any disagreement, again, is regarded as proof of ignorance or evil intent. A consequence of this intolerance has been an atmosphere of intimidation (sometimes subtle, sometimes overt) that has repressed honest discussion of these issues in the Church. I hope this era is coming to an end, but I suspect it will be a long time before those who have turned the Church into a "Club for the Righteous" will be prepared to acknowledge what they have done.

Well, your "epiphany" is coming at a suspicious moment - when your side seems certain to receive a thumping. No olive branch from you while your political allies were in control, but now that the balance is turning, you become conciliatory.

If you are sincere, you are going to have to demonstrate this again and again and again before many of the rest of us will come to believe you.

The Republican Party is in need of some serious soul searching. Not because of their beliefs: creationism, anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, etc.

Beliefs are beliefs, and seldom change.

It is the hate-mongering of which you speak that has so sullied the party.

We who differ with you on the issues are, for the most part, grown ups, and grant you the right, responsibility even, to fight passionately and eloquently for what you believe.

But the hatred espoused by the Republican Party of late, makes invalid every position you take; even those to which we are receptive.

I am optimistic that will change. Your column and the writings of many others portend that.

I don't want us to make the same mistake the evangelicals did- treating those who do not agree or fit within their approved categories like a cancer to be treated with chemo and neutralized or "cured."

It's not that I am foolish enough to believe that they will change overnight- if anything Mr. Harrison's post indicates that they are coming to a different realization of what constitutes self interest. Maybe they are seeing the full anger of voters against their agenda and realizing they won't get all those positions of power they were dreaming of.

One the other hand, I want to believe that those of us who do believe in America and everything she stood for will practice what we preach and bring them under our big tent. Or we could look at it this way: Hold your friends close, but your enemies closer still. I like the big tent analogy much better.

" bevjims1

"Stages of Grief:
1. Denial and Isolation.
2. Anger.
3. Bargaining.
4. Depression.
5. Acceptance.

"Mr. Harrison, you are at stage 3."

Good observation, Bevs... The thought had crossed my mind, too.

But, hey, much of politics and the business of government *is* bargaining, ...the Religious Right may not think so, but even *they* stand to get a lot of good things out of an Obama administration. Someone just *convinced* them it was an all-or-nothing deal.

Certainly, hanging out in the 'anger' stage may be the more common Evangelical Christian response, at least for a while, but there is a good deal involved.

Always has been. Maybe we'll be welcoming a lot more of em back to America. The columnist here probably isn't the only one who's had the nagging feeling they haven't been being 'the good guys' for quite some time.

"No one is interested in working with the religious right any more after behaving the way they have under Bush, ignoring our Constitution, trying to obtain federal funds, working to change laws that would move our democracy toward a theocracy, and in general acting as though those who disagreed with you were not only wrong, but would go to hell as well."

Well, maybe not as such. I'm interested in working with *Americans,* though.

I am an evangelical, a retired United Methodist Pastor (42 years). I am still a leader in my church and my community. I volunteer. I just spent six days as an Obama volunteer in New Mexico though I live in AZ. I learned from my United Methodist evangelical heritage that "as to opinions, think and let think" was a good idea in politics. I believe Mr. Harrison may be coming to a similar opinion.

I am encouraged that many conservative, possibly evangelicals (I dispute the usual use of that word as not in keeping with over 200 years of tradition)are now seeking to shift ground to a more conciliatory mode. I am encouraged that not all, especially young, religious are willing to be "one or two issue" voters and are recognizing that people of faith can be liberal or conservative, and always can be patriotic.

Mr. Harrison appears to be coming to a similar conclusion. I applaus him.

But what will it take for reconciliation to happen in the next four years? Assuming an Obama presidency (I'm confident and happy with that), it will take persons such as Mr. Harrison to forcefully reject the words, methods, demonization that has characterized too much of "evangelical religious right" rhetoric and actions of the last 20 or so years.

It will take Mr. Harrison and many others on the right rejecting the fear tactics of the religous right and willingness to embrace as equals and loyal Americans those who may disagree with them about religion (or no religion at all) and political issues.

I up for a new tone in politics in America, let's see what the Hagees, the Dobson's, and their like are willing to do. Even more, let's see if the Republican party is willing to re-think its ostracism of those independents and middle voters.

But, yeah, there'll be suspicion, ...there's long been a tactic by the Religious Right and Republicans to trumpet their 'Imperial Presidency' and claim the power of what'd they call it, 'Enduring Majority' to force through whatever they wanted and to stonewall all else, then when they *lose,* kind of to whine, 'You're so partisan, give us half of what we tried to take by force, anyway.'

Doesn't mean we can't come to some reconciliation. Much of the division that's prevented us from *really* doing anything productive since the Republicans in Congress and the Religious Right basically immobilized the government and deliberately and *virulently* worked to set Americans against each other ...and the world, over Clinton's peccadillo has always been unnecessary.

There are plenty of things we could easily reach consensus over that have simply been blocked because they weren't corporate Republican or Religious Right enough.

Too often, cloaking bad policies and bad precedents in moral absolutism, when often the means and mechanisms of government just aren't *made* for absolutes in the first place.

We can *change* this dynamic, though. It's *time* to turn toward *real* unity. Unity that doesn't come of hating 'libruls' or calling non-Christians 'Unamerican,' or claiming Christian values are under 'attack' if they aren't made *mandatory* by the government.

Think of the good we can do. Just don't give in to the fear and smear tactics of the Right, ...the best McCain and Palin could do is divert more wealth to the multinational corporations in hopes of returning us to a state of affairs that any thinking person always knew could never be sustained.

Maybe hurting gay people gives a *sense* of some kind of control, but haven't we found out that was a false one?

"build a new bridge of common ground across divisive religious issues"

The first step is understanding that churches are no indication of one's religious beliefs. Beliefs are demonstrated only by minute-to-minute personal behavior, not what church one belongs to. Anyone who clings to the teachings of a particular church is betraying human spirituality. Only when most people understand this and behave accordingly will political promotion of churches end.

Stages of Grief:
1. Denial and Isolation.
2. Anger.
3. Bargaining.
4. Depression.
5. Acceptance.

Mr. Harrison, you are at stage 3.

No one is interested in working with the religious right any more after behaving the way they have under Bush, ignoring our Constitution, trying to obtain federal funds, working to change laws that would move our democracy toward a theocracy, and in general acting as though those who disagreed with you were not only wrong, but would go to hell as well.

God help you as you begin stage 4 in the coming weeks. But try to learn from it. America is diverse. There may be one bible but there are many types of christians and others who also accept the bible or parts of it, and many disagree with you, and you should learn to accept that too. If you want to be listened to you must be willing to listen. Neither of us has to agree with the other, but demonization has driven the right wing religionists close to banishment by those they demonized and threateneed with hell. Learn toleration as Jesus taught, it might help the depression.

Once you get through the depression you will finally reach acceptance. When you reach that stage let us know and we might be willing to talk again, but for now we don't need you Mr. Harrison, we're too busy rebuilding the country from the maniacs you supported and cheered along as they brought this nation to its knees.

Can someone explain this villifying to me? I'm hearing a lot of this but I see no examples.

Aren't we supposed to disagree with other people. That is democracy.

Tim Harrison

I acknowledge that you have made a significant step toward tolerance.

Now I'd like to challege you to take another step. Please consider the question: What, after providing for the common defense and domestic tranquility, neither, of course, ever perfect, is the proper role of government? Is it to compel virtuous living of citizens or is to preserve citizen's rights? I believe true tolerance is to allow others the right to make their own choices regardles of your opinion of the morality of those choices just as long as your ability to make different choices is unimpaired.

DMZ1,

"Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., was the most liberal senator in 2007, according to National Journal's 27th annual vote ratings. The insurgent presidential candidate shifted further to the left last year in the run-up to the primaries, after ranking as the 16th- and 10th-most-liberal during his first two years in the Senate. "

http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/

Check it out. It is one of many publications that make this claim. Honestly it is not really my claim at all, just quoting others.

It is also not vilifying a person to call them far left. This is a political position. I admit I have a hard time with people who view things this way, but they have a right to their views. If you really feel that that extreme left wing people are villains, why are you supporting them. That may a little revealing. You might want to check your motivation for voting for someone.

Where do get off calling me a right wing extremest. I don't think you understand most of my political views. Obviously I am a conservative and I vote my concience. I don't know anyone who has ever called me extreme on any of my views.

Honestly, I wish people could get by the name calling and just make an intelligent arguement.

Well, BJames, I do accept the author's admissions, and desire to reconcile, politically, at least. You know, for what they're worth, now. But the fact is, it has to be backed up in ongoing work.

It's amusingly like one person in a mob that's been beating on you stops and says, 'Oh, I'm sorry, will you forgive me? '

Yaknow, we're a bit busy at the moment, but that's very nice. :)

Hopefully, Mr. Harrison will understand that after years of vilifying those of us who do not share his views, we are not going to be disposed to accepting his offer of reconciliation without question or comment. And if he is truly sorry for what he has done, and is cognizant of the consequences of his wrongs, he will recognize that we certainly have a right to castigate him for those wrongs in our process of allowing reconciliation.

Where have you been, Mr. Harrison, for all these years? By your own admission, you've come to realize that your actions, shared by millions of your evangelical brethren (and in fact celebrated by many of them), only recently. But those actions have not just recently become wrong. They've been wrong all along, and those of us that you and yours have been condemning were in the right: that we are *not* a nation where religious absolutes can be used as a cudgel to beat us into a shape more in keeping with your interpretation of an ancient text. Our country does not *have* a throne for evangelicals to hand over to any God. Our nation is of, for and by the People, and this is not news. Why has it taken you so long to see the truth? You have wronged us, sir, and your brethren continue to do it.

You say that you are not wholly comfortable with your new understanding of this country and its needs. Why is that? Because the truth is not as you envisioned it? Because the truth is diametrically opposed to what you want to believe as an evangelical? Examine that question more closely, and *get comfortable* with it, before you ask for our forgiveness. Otherwise, you may backslide, and we will not tolerate a dabbler.

In the end, if your heart is true, then you'll continue to grow in your understanding of our nation, and what that understanding implies. In the end, we will reconcile; for those of us who have been your targets all this time, it is in our nature to forgive and move forward, sometimes with gritted teeth. But we will do it, because we believe it's the right way. But before that day comes, we need to see that you're serious in your desire to reconcile... that this isn't just another trick pulled from the bottomless bag, in order to cause us to stretch out our hand in response to you, only to get it bitten off.

sunnie2 wrote:"One's belief and moral values have a great deal to do with politics and how this nation is managed.You have aligned your self with society that chooses to ignore moral values or say that they are outdated."

You perfectly illustrate why the rest of the country is voting Obama. You simply cannot understand that not everyone believes as you do, not everyone agrees as you do- you simply don't get it.

People this time around are voting for a much higher purpose than insular, my way or the highway religion. Tomorrow we're voting out the destructive and repressive religious right that seeks to rend us apart as a country in order to have its own way. I'm sure we don't fit your idea of morality, but we don't answer to you. The religious right has racked up quite a scorecard on human rights (not), constitutional rights (George- I hope you're reading my email) and womens rights (one of McCain's top advisors publicly lauded a woman convicted of shooting a doctor at an abortion clinic : "Dr. George Tiller was shot and injured by Rachelle Shannon at his clinic in Wichita, Kansas. Shannon is serving an 11-year sentence for attempted first-degree murder. She is serving additional prison time for six arsons and two butyric acid attacks "

Anti-choicers have no problem with arson and bombing and shooting so what makes them think this gives their position any credibility?

What makes you think your religious extremism entitles you to determine the course of the country and the fate of everyone in it? It doesn't. Period.

wow- no good deed goes unpunished. However, while I don't see the evangelical churches crossing over i droves to the side of tolerance, I do see a grass roots movement happening because I think, as Tim shows, we are reaching a point where we are looking around and seeing that our country is not working the way it should. If we don't show tolerance for everyone, there will be tolerance for no one.Tim's scared. I'm scared- hell, we're all scared.

we're going to have to face a few truths about ourselves and others. the religious right can keep their values- they must understand that on those religious values we don't agree they will have to accept those differences. If they are against abortion because of the dictates of their faith, then let them address it through compassionate programs of adoption and support, not through trying to ram a law down our throats. A law that goes against the desires of a majority of voters.

Same for same-sex marriage. Evangelicals don't have to support it, they don't have to do it. They have to accept that this is their personal point of view and not make it a public policy.

they have to remember that they are still free to practice their faith as they see fit and it is up to all of us to fight for their right to do so. But they must extend that same respect and right to the rest of us. Separation of Church and State- no negotiation.

I'm happy to let bygones be bygones- so long as I know evangelicals will care as much about my rights and faith (or humanism or sexuality) as I care about theirs.

"God gives us free will, choose wisely"

If you believe that, why do you think it's 'selling out' for one of your fellows to suggest government not *take away* those choices by unjust means?

Why do you seem to believe that your God wants you to double down on failed and counterproductive Republican policies that have brought so much of America, mothers and children included, to this terrible state?

It may *feel* self-righteous to trumpet your vicarious authority over other Americans, and try to undermine our very liberties, civility, and human dignity, (...even to distort the image of a good candidate who happens to be Christian, namely Obama,) but that won't change the results.

Gee. . .
an evangelical wants the bitter disputes to end on the eve of eight years of the most obvious proto-Calvinist president in memory. . .Sorry, thinking voters have had quite enough of you.

Tim,
By you own admission, you have sold out to secularist belief. One's belief and moral values have a great deal to do with politics and how this nation is managed.You have aligned your self with society that chooses to ignore moral values or say that they are outdated. God set rules in the Bible to live buy and just because we don't like the rules doesn't make them wrong. What is wrong is that we have our on agenda. In the end there will be a day we will all have to stand before God and give an account (reckoning)for our choices. This is not written to throw stones at anyone because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.God gives us free will, choose wisely.

Well, Erika, I don't know how far one gets appealing to such sentiments in 'higher-ups' in the Evangelical movement, but, hopefully you'll grow up to an adulthood where you'll have full rights and dignity.

When I was born, it was the time of the Stonewall uprising, when queer people actually were physically *fighting* against police who could physically and sexually abuse gay people with impunity. Things have come a long way since then.

When suddenly we had full marriage rights in Massachusetts, (my partner and I weren't at the point where we would have felt ready for marriage, anyway,) ...I was simply *amazed* at how much the simple *fact* that that equality had been recognized was like a burden lifted.

Really *got* it what people meant when they say 'Sweet breath of Liberty.'

I hope we'll all be breathing free in your lifetime, Erika. Part of why the Religious Right has been pushing for all these discriminatory Constitutional amendments is because they know that soon the people who dehumanize us won't be a simple majority of Americans, and want to make the 'traditional' injustice legal and hard to undo.

Tim,

I know that you are a very high up, and that people listen to you.
But I am very proud to say that I am a lezbian.
I do not understand why you wouldnt accept people like me.. and be agaisnt gay marriages. I am young not even out of high school, but I just dont understand why you are so agaisnt me, and why you are making it harder on me to have a future when I grow up.
I would love to get married someday, and your standing in the way of that.

Am I not human ?
Do I not deserve the freedom of choice, and the right to marry the lady that I fall in love with ?

Well, gestures can be nice, but when it comes to the party of the Religious Right these days, it does trigger a certain amount of cynicism about evangelical Christianity trying to smooth over a well-earned bad rap in politics on election eve... like that open letter from the ...who was it, Council of Evangelicals, seemingly before the primaries.. (All that nice talk seemed to fade back to business as usual pretty darn quick, come to think of it.)

The people Palin are and the 'agents of intolerance' McCain has chosen to embrace in order to get himself elected by the very people who considered him completely unacceptable a few months ago, ...haven't changed. Perhaps Mr. Harrisson can work on *that* end of things.

Most of the folks that the Religious Right targets tend to have a pretty nuanced view of reality, and aren't exactly out for vengeance or anything.

Certainly, what may seem to be an 'absolute' moral position simply *isn't* the *just* or *functional* or even *truly American* position to pursue with government power.

I think many Christians would agree.

On things like abortion and whether or not my partner and I are equal American citizens, or at least should have the more politically-tenable 'separate but equal' benefits of civil unions, well, it's not just about what some people of a certain religious politics *want.*

Sometimes it's about *means.* Whether or not the government should be allowed to *use* means which are *unjust* to accomplish even what you consider to be 'noble causes' somehow.

I'd say, no good end can come of unjust means. We shouldn't give the government, for instance, the power to discriminate, even against an unpopular group, just because Evangelicals want to. This erodes the very freedoms and dignities we *all* are supposed to enjoy.

We want to work on reducing abortion, we have to find means that do *not* abolish the right to privacy and intrude on women's bodies and personal choices about how to run their lives.

One problem the Evangelical set seems to have grown is indeed that they want to 'put God on the throne of America,' ....but this is *not* a monarchy, not even an elected one, though Bush may have given a different impression.

Look at the terrible ends that came of those means. How our national prestige is in the toilet, our economy is tanked, our population more divided and seemingly worse-educated than ever before... our infrastructure is neglected, and we still haven't done much serious about the most pressing problem for the future of all our children. Climate change, mitigating and preparing for it.

Our government isn't *made* to deal in absolutes. It's made to ever enhance and guarantee the blessings of Liberty and Justice to all.

Let's get back with the program. All of us.

Tremendous article!!! You are a true leader. I'd like to have a beer this with man. Then I'd like to help him spread his vision of rationale, thoughful and pragmatic approach to life and to those things we may disagree on.

Kert1:

Actually, you have vilified Obama repeatedly on this overall forum. You constantly refer to Obama as the most left-wing candidate ever, but this is patently and demonstrably false. McGovern, Mondale and Dukakis were all considerably more liberal than Obama. Also, there has been no 'far left' in the U.S. for over 30 years. There is the extremist right of which you are clearly a member, and I guess everyone to the left of Attila the Hun is 'far left' to you.

Tim,
What exactly do you stand for an evangelical. Your understanding of evangelicals is clearly skewed. Most groups don't endorse candidates and can't.

I have never villified candidates nor do I know any who have. They do bring out serious issues.

I think you forget our call in the Bible to fight for good. We don't elect people because of their faith but we do use our faith when we decide on our candidates.

Clearly issues aren't always clear but there are many Christians who do come to the same conclusion. Are you saying that the majority of evangelicals are wrong? Can we not discern right from wrong or at least a better choice? I really don't know where you are going with this whole article. Should we all just pack up and go home and forget about this.

I don't think things are always clear but I do think God has given us wisdom and we can use that to discern the best candidates. I look for the wisdom of other evangelicals and conservatives who view things similar to me. I think this is the best way to vote. Please tell us how you plan to make your decisions.

Not 'to American values' but, rather, 'to American citizens'. My bad

Tim:

I acknowledge that you made a serious effort here. I respect the effort, but I don't see a clear path to the reconciliation that you propose.

First, you don't even mention unbelievers. There are 18 million atheists in the U.S. - more than all Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and Pagans combined. Christians have been demonizing atheists for so long so, maybe just out of habit, you forgot to include us. Or, your intention is not to include us. I would certainly have to know the answer to that.

Second, I'm not sure that we Americans have shared values anymore, if we ever did. Take gay marriage, for example. I do not and will never understand how someone can call themself a good American but then seek to deny equality under the law - a core American value - to American values. To me, that is montrously un-American and anti-American.

Third, if you support prayer in public schools or teaching religion instead of science in public schools, I'm not sure we even have a basis for conversation.

There's much, much more. I too would like to lower the heat on partisan issues, but I see no path to make it so.

wow. From (as we Jews say) your mouth to G-d's ear. we're all part of the problem, really. But if you can extend your hand across the divide, so will I.